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05 Apr 11 - 08:11 AM (#3128910) Subject: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: Fred McCormick If you want a laugh, take a look at this. It purports to be the scene in the Berlin Bunker when Hitler is told of the defeat of the BNP in the 2010 elections. http://another-green-world.blogspot.com/2011/04/bnp-fraction-of-candidates-standing-in.html |
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05 Apr 11 - 09:10 AM (#3128950) Subject: RE: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: Charley Noble Fred- Too true to be funny. Charley Noble |
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05 Apr 11 - 09:33 AM (#3128966) Subject: RE: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: Greg F. There is absolutely nothing "funny" about Hitler in any way, shape, or form. |
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05 Apr 11 - 09:44 AM (#3128971) Subject: RE: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: Fred McCormick Ah eh, come on fellas. I spend a large part of my life organising against fascists. It would be a far worse world than it is now if we couldn't have a laugh at them once in a while. |
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05 Apr 11 - 09:49 AM (#3128974) Subject: RE: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: Jim Dixon What about this propaganda newsreel that was produced in Britain in 1942? Ok, it's only mildly amusing today, but I believe it was considered hilarious in 1942. |
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05 Apr 11 - 11:10 AM (#3129037) Subject: RE: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: Greg F. Yeah, and Hiroshima was a real laugh riot, too- way better than Hitler. |
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05 Apr 11 - 11:30 AM (#3129054) Subject: RE: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: Donuel omg This could be done for C street or the republican caucus |
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05 Apr 11 - 11:30 AM (#3129056) Subject: RE: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: Ebbie To me, it's kind of like getting a kick out of watching - repeatedly - a video of a bully beating up a small boy, synchronised and set to music. Not funny. |
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05 Apr 11 - 12:56 PM (#3129114) Subject: RE: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: Little Hawk I've seen far funnier Hitler videos than that one. I give it about, oh, maybe 5 out of ten on the scale. |
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05 Apr 11 - 04:48 PM (#3129312) Subject: RE: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: greg stephens It was adequate. But I thought the Sidmouth Folk Festival organiser one was much better. |
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05 Apr 11 - 05:24 PM (#3129348) Subject: RE: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: Little Hawk There were a few really brilliant ones done, with subtle humour and a rather keen understanding also of the possible motivations that Hitler and those around him might have had, but with a clever satirical twist. There was one where Hitler was extremely upset over all the "Hitler Rant" parodies being shown on Youtube, and he was protesting in desperation "I am NOT a funny man!" He was in despair over the fact that he had been turned into a figure of comedy by thousands of overdubbed Internet videos instead of being taken seriously as an extremely dangerous political leader who could present a serious threat to the world order as we know it. That was damn funny, and very well done. I can't say that of the BNP one. |
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05 Apr 11 - 06:09 PM (#3129387) Subject: RE: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: Little Hawk Here is one that I think is pretty good: Hitler rants about the Hitler parodies |
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05 Apr 11 - 06:16 PM (#3129394) Subject: RE: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: Lox Interesting that A website clearly representing people dedicated to confronting fascism should be so harshly judged by people not confronting it. Thats what happens when people refuse to listen. |
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05 Apr 11 - 08:08 PM (#3129458) Subject: RE: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: Greg F. Or, that's what happens when people refuse to see what prats they are being by trivialising murderous dictators ?? Hey, when's the next Pol Pot comedy review going to take the road? |
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05 Apr 11 - 08:26 PM (#3129472) Subject: RE: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: Lox You would rather he was given special treatment? |
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05 Apr 11 - 11:29 PM (#3129536) Subject: RE: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: Little Hawk Don't imagine for a moment, Greg, that people who find such a video funny are any less aware of the evils of Naziism than you are. They just look at the video from a completely different angle that's all, and perhaps are not so bent on re-experiencing their extreme anger over the past over and over and over again...ad infinitum. No matter how mad you get about the past, it won't hurt Hitler one bit. He isn't around anymore. It'll hurt you, though...by affecting your nervous system in a way that stresses your whole body and shortens your life. Laughter, on the other hand, will benefit your nervous system and you'll live longer. And I can just imagine how far that advice will go with you...! Ha! ;-D I could've saved my breath, right? Angry people hold onto their anger like a dog holds onto its favorite bone, I find. They want to STAY ANGRY!!!!!!!! Yeah! Hitler's regime was utterly defeated and completely destroyed 66 years ago! How much longer are we forbidden to laugh at Mr Hitler? What if we were still that way about the Spanish Inquisition too? If we were, Monty Python would've lost the opportunity for a lovely skit. ;-) |
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05 Apr 11 - 11:47 PM (#3129541) Subject: RE: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: Little Hawk By the way, the movie "Downfall" (or "Der Untergang") is an absolutely brilliant film about the final days of Hitler's life, the last couple of weeks in the Berlin Bunker, and the other people who were around him. It is excerpts from that film which are being used for those parodies. Bruno Ganz did such a marvelous portrayal of Hitler that you can hardly believe he isn't Hitler. This movie was made in modern Germany, one of the most anti-Nazi societies on Earth, and it was done because people there wish to face what happened honestly, process it emotionally, and thereby clear the pain of it from their souls. It was a time of incredible disaster and tragedy for millions of people. The movie is fair and realistic. It shows the top Nazis and the General Staff who were around Hitler in a realistic way, both the fanatical believers and the many others who were just soldiers or civilians trying desperately to survive and to do their jobs in the midst of chaos and destruction. Anyone could learn something useful about humanity, both their dark side and their kinder side, from watching that movie if they could do so without lapsing into their favorite reflex hatreds. It's not cheerful. But it is a brilliant piece of historical filmmaking. One thing you have to realize when you watch it is: this could happen ANYwhere. It's not limited to Naziism. It's not limited to Germans. Any country can slide into a crazy political system and find itself in a terrible lost war. And if so...a lot of ordinary people will get hurt, and most of them will just be people like you or me who were in the wrong place at the wrong time. |
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06 Apr 11 - 12:12 AM (#3129555) Subject: RE: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: GUEST,999 LH, you are turning a silk purse out of as sow's ear. |
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06 Apr 11 - 12:13 AM (#3129556) Subject: RE: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: GUEST,999 . . . but you do it well. |
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06 Apr 11 - 01:10 AM (#3129583) Subject: RE: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: Little Hawk I know a good historical movie when I see it. I detest the Nazis, I think it's a terrible shame they got to take over and utterly ruin Germany and most of Europe, but I've always liked the Germans themselves...as a nation and as a people. |
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06 Apr 11 - 03:02 AM (#3129605) Subject: RE: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: GUEST,999 Bravo. |
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06 Apr 11 - 04:20 AM (#3129647) Subject: RE: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: GUEST,lively It may be worth noting that, as LH indicates with his link to wartime newsreel, the 'hitler rants' videos are a continuation of a long tradition of humour invoking ridiculous representations of Hitler (check out Punch cartoons also). Some might find them trivialising, but in the UK at least, this kind of silly humour didn't just suddenly emerge on YouTube, but represents a type of popular humour in which ridiculous representations of Hitler and the Nazi's have been evoked in varying contexts since WWII. |
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06 Apr 11 - 04:24 AM (#3129649) Subject: RE: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: GUEST,999 Try Chaplin. |
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06 Apr 11 - 04:43 AM (#3129655) Subject: RE: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: GUEST,lively As for YouTube compare similar the similar "Gadaffi Speech" phenomenon: This was flagged up on another thread, where the OP received similar approbation for 'trivialising' a monster. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Z3gu3N2XXs It's worth remembering that in dictatorships, those who would lampoon the head of the state, wouldn't just get told "I find that distasteful" by sensitive people who disapprove of "making light of serious matters", but they would be dragged from their beds in the middle of the night and recieve a bullet in the head instead. |
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06 Apr 11 - 05:02 AM (#3129662) Subject: RE: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: GUEST,lively Beg pardon, Jim Dixon flagged up the wartime newsreel. For anyone who hasn't seen it I'll flag it up again as it's classic material - marching Nazi's being jerked around to the Lambeth Walk: http://www.videojug.com/film/nazis-do-the-lambeth-walk-7th-january-1942 Interesting to note the offense this classic piece of wartime propaganda has caused among some of the posters there too. |
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06 Apr 11 - 05:14 AM (#3129669) Subject: RE: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: MGM·Lion "Hitler's regime was utterly defeated and completely destroyed 66 years ago! How much longer are we forbidden to laugh at Mr Hitler? What if we were still that way about the Spanish Inquisition too? If we were, Monty Python would've lost the opportunity for a lovely skit. ;-)" -------- I started a thread a while back which asked the specific question as to how long after was it OK to be funny about things {Christians to lions; Spanish Inquisition, "Springtime for Hitler"} which were far from funny at the time. I expect it is still lurking in the archives somewhere. ~Michael~ |
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06 Apr 11 - 05:19 AM (#3129671) Subject: RE: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: MGM·Lion And there was much dispute on another thread at the same time about the joke about Anne Frank's father's last Xmas gift to her being a drum-kit. remember? ~M~ |
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06 Apr 11 - 05:47 AM (#3129700) Subject: RE: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: Fred McCormick MGM. I would find any jokes about Anne Frank extremely unfunny. She was a victim of the holocaust, remember, not a perpetrator. Greg. Fascism is the most obscene political creed on earth. It repulses me. It horrifies me, and just occasionally it makes me feel physically sick. But how do you exorcise your demons if you can't laugh at them occasionally? Talking of excorcism. How many of the detractors on this thread, including Greg, take any active part in the anti-fascist struggle? I'm in that struggle, and it will remain part of my life as long as I have one, or "until not one fascist is left on this earth", as Ewan MacColl put it. In the meantime, please forgive me if I take time out to poke fun at the monster now and again. BTW., have you ever wondered how on earth people could have got through the second world war if they hadn't been able to laugh at Hitler? Little Hawk. Der Untergang. I agree with every single word you said there, especially the bit about Nazism being a universal threat. Brilliant film, and the spoof was indeed based on one of its scenes. |
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06 Apr 11 - 06:35 AM (#3129720) Subject: RE: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: MGM·Lion Fred: absolutely agree with you re Anne Frank, & made that point throughout the thread ~ but I and only one or two others, IIRC, were outnumbered by many 'got to keep a SOH' pleaders. Hitler, OTOH, was subject of cartoons, political & otherwise, throughout WWii. I remember there was even a regular strip in one of the children's comics, either Beano or Dandy, called "Addie and Hermie, the nasty Nazis" ['Hermie', of course, for those too young to remember, being Hermann Göring, a very fat man so also easily caricaturable]. Hitler was not a victim, like Anne Frank, but a persecutor and perpetrator; so humour was regarded as an appropriate means of undercutting his baleful influence ~~ which seems to me a point worth making re all these ongoing parodies, in which he gets a girl pregnant, has Justin Bieber assassinated for out-popilarising him, despite warnings of the Reichstag being overwhelmed by irresistable mobs of teenage girls, & ends up haunted by Bieber's ghost...; which seem perhaps an acceptable form of attack on neo-Nazism? ~Michael~ |
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06 Apr 11 - 06:55 AM (#3129732) Subject: RE: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: MGM·Lion Göring, btw, was a decorated hero of WWi, & also most courageous at the Nürnberg Trials; & cheated the hangman by contriving to keep a vial of sulphuric acid in his navel & swallowing it on the morning planned for his execution. A man of some courage & resource, I think it must be admitted. But when a columnist {Clive James, was it?} made these points about him a few years ago, he was attacked for suggesting that such a person could possess any virtues ~~ or, even if he did, it would be more seemly to keep quiet about them. I am on the columnist's side; and this seems to me a point worth making on this column. There is a another scene in Downfall, the film from which the scene subtitled to make all these parodies comes, in which AH is kind to his dog, & particularly charming to a group of young-lady applicants for the job of his secretary. If we are not allowed to remember his more humane moments, or to laugh at his absurdities, we will have a false picture. Remember, it was Hitler's own idiosyncracies that were/are being made the subject of humour; not his situation, as was the, imo absolutely unacceptable, case with the Anne Frank joke. ~M~ |
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06 Apr 11 - 07:04 AM (#3129737) Subject: RE: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: Fred McCormick For anyone who doesn't find Hitler a suitable case for comic treatment, I suggest they don't watch the Mel Brokks film, The Producers. |
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06 Apr 11 - 07:10 AM (#3129741) Subject: RE: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: GUEST,lively "which seem perhaps an acceptable form of attack on neo-Nazism?" Interesting point M - though I for one would doubt that such notions necessarily figure in the *forefront* of such popular waves of 'folk' comedy. However I'll get back to that. I think what we might be able to say, is that what we see here, is a type of comedy being produced in the context of a continuum of such comedic belittling of a potent figure of fear, one in which the precedent was set (as you reference) during the collective 'war effort' of WWII itself. Now back to that point. Irrespective of whether or not such notions are present in the minds of those who create videos such as the Hitler Rants, the effect however is the same. IE it reduces an 'awe inspiring' figure to a pathetic figure of popular ridicule. This is still important today (irrespective of the conscious intent of the makers) as figures such as Hitler do still inspire 'awe' of the wrong kind, as you say, among Neo-Nazi groups. In other words, popular waves of folk comedy such as this which tap into a tradition of lampooning powerful 'awe inspiring' political figures, diminish their iconic awe inspiring potency -and- the continuing potential political influence that the iconic potency of such historic figures may yet wield in the present day. |
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06 Apr 11 - 01:03 PM (#3129933) Subject: RE: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: Little Hawk One of the most effective things about the movie "Der Untergang" is that it shows the many sides of Hitler, including the human side. Most people are a mixture of qualities, both good and bad, and you get to know this when you're around them. Their worst aspects tend to come out under extreme stress. We're all very familiar with Hitler's worst aspects, having been told about them all our lives. We're not so familiar with the man who could be genial, kind, friendly, and sentimental in quieter moments when he felt safe. To see the contrast is quite striking, and it makes it all the more horrifying to see the madness that consumes him when the regime he built is falling in pieces all around him. He literally wanted the entire German nation to perish with him at the end, because they had been "too weak" to win the conflict! Albert Speer quietly disobeyed most of Hitler's orders to destroy the entire domestic infrastructure as the Allies advanced into Germany. Speer wanted to spare the German people and was looking beyond the end of the war to a time of rebuilding...as any truly rational person would. Hitler, on the other hand, was determined to bring everything crashing down with him if he couldn't win. The two men in the inner Nazi circle who seemed the least "human" to me were Himmler and Goebbels...Himmler because he was a really treacherous and vicious little man, always involved in some nasty scheme or another...and Goebbels because he was a purblind political fanatic who believed every crazy word he uttered about Jews, Communists, etc. Watching them being depicted is truly chilling. Watching Hitler, on the other hand, is chilling at some points, pitiable at others, just sad at others. There's a tragic aspect to Hitler the man, and it is brought out quite well in that movie. Among his most unpleasant characteristics were his utter lack of compassion for those he saw as "weak"...and his tendency to blame Germans in general...and the German army...for the failure of his crazy war. He thought they had lacked the will to win! Hardly. They fought as well as anyone could have. Well, one has to wonder if he had any awareness of what numbers mean? You can't win a war when you end up grossly outnumbered in every significant way by the forces you are fighting against. Other than that, you're not very likely to win in the end when you subscribe to an irrational and repugnant political theory, and that was the key problem with Naziism right from the start. But they themselves (the Nazis) couldn't see it. |
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06 Apr 11 - 01:44 PM (#3129958) Subject: RE: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: Ebbie I'm sure it is not a new thought but I haven't heard discussed what would likely have happened in WWII had Hitler not been consumed by the 'need' to eradicate the Jews and other "undesirables". It must have been very expensive to allocate all those resources to that pursuit, money that could have been used to fund the war. Had he not singled out entire peoples to persecute it is highly likely he would have been supported by many of them. And if Hitler had not opened a new front to the war when he entered Russia... Would Germany have won? |
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06 Apr 11 - 02:08 PM (#3129974) Subject: RE: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: Little Hawk Well, there was actually no need for Hitler to go to war at all in 1939, Ebbie. What about that possibility? What if he had simply rebuilt the German economy and armed forces, but stopped short of attacking Poland or anyone else? What then? The other powers in Europe would have been worried about a vigorously restored Germany, but would they have gone to war if Hitler did not? As for the persecution of the Jews, that was a mad idea, but Hitler found it very useful in whipping up support for the Nazi Party, because anti-semitism was common all over Europe at that time, not just in Germany. As far as winning the war once it was underway....hmmmm... A fairly long shot, I'd say. I don't think there was much chance of Hitler ever conquering the UK...but if he had put a really serious effort into taking North Africa and had occupied Egypt, siezed the Suez, and dominated the Med...then it's quite possible that he could have negotiated peace with the British at some point and the war could have ceased with neither side losing, in effect. In the meantime, any number of other things could have happened. The Russians might well have attacked the Germans at some point if Stalin felt the time was right. They had enormous forces, getting stronger all the time, and they were quite optimistic about the effectiveness of those forces. Among other things, for example, the Russians had far and away the best tanks in the world by 1941 (the T-34 and the KV-1). What they did not have was a highly experienced force using the new Blitzkrieg tactics. The Germans used such a force to great effect when they invaded Russia. It won many great victories, but it couldn't win that war, because Hitler bit off more than he could chew. |
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06 Apr 11 - 11:51 PM (#3130266) Subject: RE: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: Ebbie Hitler's ostensible reason for invading Poland was his perceived need of 'lebensraum' for his people, literally 'room to live'. If England, et al, had not honored the treaty they held with Poland, would Germany continued adding more 'room'? |
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07 Apr 11 - 12:57 AM (#3130281) Subject: RE: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: Ron Davies Don't bother to argue with Greg ( aka Mr. Recreational Outrage) about this. If he says it's not permitted to ridicule Hitler, it must be so. How could anybody possibly think differently? And if they do, they are obviously morally inferior to Greg. Which he may well tell us soon. Quite soon. |
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07 Apr 11 - 03:40 AM (#3130312) Subject: RE: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: Lox "Well, there was actually no need for Hitler to go to war at all in 1939, Ebbie. What about that possibility? What if he had simply rebuilt the German economy and armed forces, but stopped short of attacking Poland or anyone else? What then?" I am lost for words at this incredible disneyland/rom-com reinterpretation of history. But I need to find the right ones as it cannot go unanswered. ... Here they are ... Little Hawk - your post is complete utter Bullshit. |
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07 Apr 11 - 06:03 AM (#3130366) Subject: RE: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: Fred McCormick "Well, there was actually no need for Hitler to go to war at all in 1939, Ebbie. What about that possibility? What if he had simply rebuilt the German economy and armed forces, but stopped short of attacking Poland or anyone else? What then?" Actually there was every need for Germany to invade Poland in 1939. First of all, due to the crackpot economics of Nazism, the only way they could stay in power, and keep the German people on board, was by invading and looting other countries. (See Hitler's Benficiaries; Plunder, Racial War, and the Nazi Welfare State. Götz Aly. Metropolitan Books. New York. 2005.) Secondly, the Nazi's long term aim was to overrun the USSR, thereby establishing an empire big enough to enable Germany to live off the fat of the Russian Land. |
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07 Apr 11 - 06:15 AM (#3130370) Subject: RE: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: Fred McCormick Ron Davies. "Don't bother to argue with Greg". Obviously a waste of time. I've asked a couple of times what he personally is doing to counter the resurgance of fascism (and as far as the European mainland is concerned, resurgance is certainly the world). Maybe I've missed it, but I can't see light nor sausage about the demos he's been on, or the meetings he's attended, or about the shoes he's worn out leafletting the sink estates, into which the BNP and the EDL sink their evil claws. Maybe he thinks if nobody laughs, it will just go away. |
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07 Apr 11 - 06:16 AM (#3130372) Subject: RE: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: MGM·Lion Ebbie ~~ I have long believed, with you, that the big mistake the little fool made was to tie up all those resources {trains, manpower, camps, gas-chambers, bullets} killing the Jews at once, when all he needed to do was win first & then polish them off at his leisure ~~ have even posted to that effect on some tread iirc, but can't recall which one. ~M~ |
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07 Apr 11 - 07:24 AM (#3130399) Subject: RE: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: Lox I am gobsmacked that Hitlers stategic errors can be discussed in such a blithe offhand way. I guess people are just different, but to me the idea of a serious discussion of how the final solution could have been made more effective is simply grotesque. If this were satire, it would be lambasted for being insensitive. I'm starting to wonder if I was adopted and brought home to earth from pluto. |
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07 Apr 11 - 07:33 AM (#3130406) Subject: RE: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: Lox On the subject of Hitler being Human, I agree that it is good that people should realize this. But why is it important? It is important because people need to face up to tthe reality that it was not a war between the Humans and the Nazis, but a war between people and people. Hitler wasa flesh and blood just like us. And therefore, we are flesh and blood just like Hitler. Not a nice thought is it ... "I'm nothing like Hitler" says a voice in the crowd. But then Millions of Germans in 1939 would have said the same thing if you had been able to show them photos of the crimes he would commit and that they would commit in his name. The lesson is - You could do that - I could do that - Ordinary people did that - not outcasts, or extremists, but middle of the road loyal patriotic well meaning Germans. All the same flesh and blood as you and I. The battle against Nazism goes on within us today. It goes on on newsnight, on question time and on this forum. Who do we need to watch out for? the worst culprits of all - you and I. |
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07 Apr 11 - 09:20 AM (#3130461) Subject: RE: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: Bonzo3legs Oh for clapton's sake, it's just a bit of fun - remember that? |
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07 Apr 11 - 10:47 AM (#3130518) Subject: RE: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: Fred McCormick Bonzo. It isn't entirely. The video is hosted by an anti-fascist site, and the best way to make fascists look ridiculous is by making them look ridiculous. |
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07 Apr 11 - 11:52 AM (#3130574) Subject: RE: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: Ebbie Lox, that is the truly scary part. Discerning the seeds in oneself is to despair. Some wise man once said: Nothing common to the human condition can be alien to me. |
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07 Apr 11 - 12:08 PM (#3130587) Subject: RE: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: Donuel My vote is for Springtime for Hitler I still laugh at it. |
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07 Apr 11 - 02:06 PM (#3130691) Subject: RE: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: Little Hawk Lox - I couldn't agree more with your post of 07 Apr 11 - 07:33 AM "On the subject of Hitler being Human, I agree that it is good that people should realize this. But why is it important? It is important because people need to face up to tthe reality that it was not a war between the Humans and the Nazis, but a war between people and people." Exactly! And very well put. Millions of Germans initially supported Hitler for reasons that were understandable for the population of a country recently defeated in a great war, punished severely in a very punitive settlement, economically devastated, deprived of most of its armed forces, and deprived of large chunks of its national territory which got parcelled out to various neighbouring nations. Hitler gave a lot of bitter and angry Germans hope that they could restore their country to its former place among nations...so naturally, they supported him. They did not foresee the horrors the Nazis would bring. One can say they should have...but this is with the benefit of hindsight. I wonder how many of us, if born German in those times, would have enthusiastically supported Hitler in the early years? We really have no way of knowing. In any case, I think your post was very perceptive and it hits the nail right on the head. Regarding my statement "there was actually no need for Hitler to go to war at all in 1939"...you've misinterpreted my meaning there. I wasn't saying that it was at all likely that he wouldn't go to war against the Poles! I think it was, in fact, inevitable that he would, because he was utterly set on doing so, and he was utterly set on eventually attacking and destroying Soviet Russia. I was simply proposing theoretical possibilities of what could have happened if Hitler had been a balanced, sane, and reasonable man, that's all. If so, he would not have attacked either Poland or Russia. He would not have attacked anyone militarily. But a balanced and reasonable German leader might still well have done some of the other things Hitler did, such as reoccupying the Rhineland, restoring Germany's armed forces, and rebuilding the economy. I was simply proposing theoretical possibilities of what someone else might have done in Hitler's place, and I'm saying there was absolutely NO necessity for Germany to go to war with anyone in 1938 or 1939 or anytime at all...and if they'd been run by some sensible political party instead of the Nazis, then they would probably not have done so. Given the crazy philosophy embraced by Hitler, Himmler, Goebbels, and the other top Nazis, though, there was no way they weren't going to get into a war. And I think everyone in Europe knew that by the mid to late 30s. Accordingly, everyone was hurriedly arming to prepare for it. What surprised Hitler was when the French and British declared war on him over Poland. He was expecting them to back down. **** As you have said, Lox, "The lesson is - You could do that - I could do that - Ordinary people did that - not outcasts, or extremists, but middle of the road loyal patriotic well meaning Germans. All the same flesh and blood as you and I. The battle against Nazism goes on within us today. It goes on on newsnight, on question time and on this forum. Who do we need to watch out for? the worst culprits of all - you and I. " Right on! That is the real point, and that is why I think "Der Untergang" is such a fine movie, because it shows most clearly how perfectly ordinary and quite decent people got drawn in willy-nilly, mostly simply due to their own national origin, and they supported the Hitler government and fought for it in that war. It could, and can happen anywhere. At any time. In any nation. The "little man within", the Nazi, can be born inside perfectly ordinary people anywhere. It just takes the right political conditions (an angry and very frustrated population) and an unscrupulous, ruthless group of leaders at the top to make it happen. You won't be able to identify them by the obvious outer signs either when and if it happens...what I mean is, instead of wearing a German cross or a swastika, they might have flags and armbands that sport... - the Union Jack - the French Tricolor - the Italian Tricolor - the Stars and Stripes - the Red Star - the Star of David - the Crescent Moon - the Maple Leaf - the Russian flag - the Rising Sun - the Iranian or Egyptian or Syrian or Indian flags, etc... Or any other symbol out there...because it can happen anywhere. And under any political label. |
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07 Apr 11 - 09:24 PM (#3130990) Subject: RE: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: Ron Davies Sorry, it is totally pointless to theorize what would have happened if Hitler had been sane and reasonable. Unless you just like to see your own words in print, and have an amazing amount of time to waste. But perhaps that's the case. And, if so, have fun. |
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07 Apr 11 - 10:06 PM (#3131001) Subject: RE: BS: Funniest Hitler Video Ever From: Little Hawk It's simply something interesting to speculate about. Alternative possibilities in history. Period. I'm not doing it to fight with you or anyone else. If you think it's pointless to talk about such theoretical alternatives, spend your time on something that you enjoy instead. |