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07 Apr 11 - 03:46 AM (#3130314) Subject: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Lizzie Cornish 1 I was down in the Job Centre the other day, looking for er...jobs (ha, fat chance down here in TerribleTorquay) as the one I had is now no longer...and was amazed to see all the Big Blokes who looked liked Bouncers standing round, in uniform, watching everyone... I got talking to the chap I had an interview with, a really nice man, about my age, mid-50s..and I was asking him why so many threatening looking oiks abounded in a Job Centre, making folks feel somewhat intimidated. He explained that 'the folks' are getting more and more angry..and indeed there'd been one such chappie earlier on who'd been on the way to losing it because he'd heard he could get financial help with an Anger Management Course....and on finding he couldn't, he got er..a little angry... Well, before I knew it this man who was supposed to be interviewing me was pouring out his feelings to me instead, how his wages had been cut by 5% and frozen too, yet his bills kept going up and up and up..How so many people on Incapacity Benefit will have that taken away from them soo, Disability Living Allowance too, as 'The Doctors' dictate the vast majority of them are 'fit for work', when most of them aren't.... He fears for the future desperately, and all the staff are worried sick about what's about to happen when a flood of desperate people flow through THEIR doors, as the Job Centres are where they're all going to be directed to... They know already that so many people can barely exist on the benefits they get, so it's not a big stretch of the imagination to realise the panic that will be about to set in shortly, nor the anger that's going to burst out all over the staff who the government have left to deal with this terrible situation. Hence, the ever-increasing number of Burly Bouncer Boys in your local Job Centres, folks. Of course, there are NO jobs for the luckless people to take, once they lose their benefits...but of course, Cammy and Cleggy, the public school educated, never wanted for a thing in me life, millionaires, don't give a fuck about that part... I asked Mr. Job Centre if he thought 'The Doctors' would be fair and reasonable, and he just stared at me...shook his head sadly....and said that no, he felt the exact opposite...I told him about a lady on BBC News the other morning, she'd had a brain haemorrhage a few months back. She's struggling to get back to normal, having gone completely blind at the start, but gradually have a little sight returning, although she's now classified as Partially Sighted...and her right side is still numb, arm, hand, leg, all the way down...She can't claim Job Seeker's Allowance, as her job is being kept open for her because she WANTS to go back to work if she can....but now, they've deemed her 'fit for work' even though she can't bloody well SEE!! I mean??? WTF?? Apparently, one of 'The Doctors' had asked her how many fingers he was holding up, and when she said she couldn't see, he got very aggressive with her and said "You MUST be able to see!!" ...She couldn't...just got distressed at being treated that way... There's now been a whole movement to make Suspicion the name of the game, viewing anyone who is on Benefit as a Dirty Rotten Scumbag, basically....and whilst I know there ARE some folks who work the system, abuse it horribly, there are far more who don't and who'd give anything to be free of it, free to have their lives back, and a decent job to make a living from... I'm sickened by what's happening in my country, really sickened.... In my last job I had a manager who was from Eastern Europe and I had to stand there listening to how racist this country was, what a terrible thing The Welfare State was, how they don't have that in her country, everyone having to work or starve..etc..etc..etc....I'm afraid that I told her we were actually the kindest, most tolerant, most anti-racist, and one of the most giving nations in the world, often to our own detriment, but I'd far rather have my country that way, than come from a country where no-one cared about anyone else and folks were just left to get on with things, no matter what terrible atrocities befell them... She was so hard, so lacking in sympathy, empathy or compassion...and it worries me that there are plans afoot, heck, already now in action, to make my country become more and more like hers......and that frightens the Beejayzus out of me..and saddens me to the core of my being... I know there'll be some people who'll come on here and start on about Scroungers and the Work Shy, but they are only a minority, albeit a bloody annoying minority. For the most part, as Mr. Job Centre was telling me, those who ARE on many of these benefits are desperately in need of them... I can see most Job Centre Staff going off sick with stress shortly...and to be honest, who can blame them, because they have been shoved to the Frontline by mega rich and wealthy generals who have no thought for the 'cannon fodder' who are about to be mowed down by their horrendous decisions....... I hate this Age of Suspicion, where all of us are viewed to be guilty until proved innocent..It's wrecking our way of life, wreaking havoc on communities, on friendships, on Trust... ....and without Trust in each other and of each other we are all pretty well doomed. |
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07 Apr 11 - 03:54 AM (#3130317) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) So, what do you suggest ? Keep handing the millions of freeloaders a nice cheque each week ? |
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07 Apr 11 - 04:00 AM (#3130322) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Lizzie Cornish 1 No, but you don't take from those who DO need it, and even Mr. Job Centre (and his colleagues) feel that IS going to happen, on a very large scale... What happens to those desperately unfortunate people then? |
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07 Apr 11 - 04:07 AM (#3130324) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Millions, Richie? Are you SURE about that, or is that merely what you've been led to believe by many of the current 'brainwashing' campaigns? |
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07 Apr 11 - 04:49 AM (#3130335) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Will Fly Keep handing the millions of freeloaders a nice cheque each week? This is why the tin hats get put on, Richie... Inexact statistical data (how many millions?) and emotive words like 'freeloaders'. You just don't learn, do you? But I'm not going to waste any more time on you in this thread. We've been there before. My final advice to you is to get out of your rabbit hutch, go down to a job centre and talk to some of the people there. Find about them - ask why they're there. Do some research - or would that be too uncomfortable? Bye. |
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07 Apr 11 - 05:01 AM (#3130345) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Musket Just out of interest, whilst there can be good and bad in any profession, Doctors do not make decisions over people's abilities. They advise on perceived limits of capability, in terms of the specific nature of the handicap. Decisions are made by others. I had an industrial accident 26 years ago. When I was in rehabilitation, a man with a very similar injury was in the bed next to mine. We became friends and still are. We were both told we would have limits on our physical ability, possibly for life. He has never worked since. I found employment that my limitations were less of a hindrance to, and have had a (to my mind) successful career. I am sure the answer is somewhere between the poles of Lizzie and Richie. Might take a bit of debate to get there though. |
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07 Apr 11 - 05:55 AM (#3130362) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) Well the bottom line is this government is cracking down on the fraudsters and will still provide for the genuine cases in need of support. The days of some thing with six asses driving a Mobility car and receiving Disability Living Allowance because of her Mars Bar problem or the teenage mum who needs her ankles wired together, are over. Labour created this society with left wing seed eating self help groups springing up in community centres up and down the county offering advise how to fill in forms and what symptoms to get to your GP. It's over, accept it and whinge all you wish, you en't gonna change it ! |
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07 Apr 11 - 06:15 AM (#3130371) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,John MacKenzie Well as usual the truth lies somewhere between the two. For many years Labour actively encouraged people to go on the incapacity register. It gets them off the unemployment register you see, and they need to be able to boast that unemployment came down under New Labour (sic). The French had a similare trick to keep unemployment figures down, they called it National Service! Anyway, as a result if this policy, we now have many people registered as unfit for work, who are no such thing. What needs to evolve is a triage system which is more friendly, and less in the mould of the Waffen SS. I too have heard stories of unsympathetic interviewers, reducing people to tears, and telling those, obviously unfit for work, that they will be removed from the register. It would help if the interviewing wasn't done by private contractors, on a 'payment by results' basis. In other words they are only paid if they get the numbers down. The same thing is happening to the long term unemployed, who are made to jump through hoops, by these same contractors. |
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07 Apr 11 - 06:30 AM (#3130375) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,Patsy The old austere looking labour exchanges have been replaced by the impersonal Job Centre + burley type Bouncer type security which is funny in itself knowing the kind of people employed in security these days - and that's if all of them are legal to start with. There was a Job Centre in the most volatile area in North Bristol near where I lived and it had all the look of a prisoners visiting room. People queuing. many with babies and small children only to sit down and then ushered somewhere else to queue again. What are the children going to grow up thinking when they see their parents demeaned like that. It's not only about benefits and claims, not all people are articulate in putting things forward and faced with a po faced officious Job Centre worker cannot always put their case across very well. Something has got to change with the look and running of these places to make people feel better about having to go in them in the first place most people I know think of the Job Centre as the last place they want to be. A few potted artificial plants dotted here and there is not going to stop a missile or two being thrown through the window which had been the case in this particular centre, not the bank next to it, ironically. |
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07 Apr 11 - 06:41 AM (#3130378) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: McGrath of Harlow "Decisions are made by others" as Ian Mather said - and all too often these "others" overrule and ignore what the doctors have said. And in some forty per cent of the appeals made by those claimants, the decisions made depriving them of benefits are overthrown. ........................................... One good thing about the Mudcat at one time was that, when we got in an argument we could remind ourselves that we share with the people we are arguing an interest in folk music, which brought us here in the first place. You'd meet the people you'd been sparring with up in the music section. Sadly that isn't true all too often these days. And there are some pretty unpleasant specimens thrown up... |
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07 Apr 11 - 06:42 AM (#3130379) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Newport Boy A banker, a Daily Mail reader and a benefit claimant sat down to share a plate of 12 biscuits. The banker took 11 biscuits and said to the Daily Mail reader "Watch out for that benefit claimant - he's trying to steal your biscuit". Until we have a more equal society, the poor will always suffer for the benefit of the wealthy. Phil |
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07 Apr 11 - 06:58 AM (#3130387) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Richard Bridge I hate to agree with you Lizzie, but on this, I do. Mr Schwartz simply wants to oppress the rest of the world for his benefit. Up against the wall. |
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07 Apr 11 - 07:13 AM (#3130395) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: banjoman Mr Black really angers me with his obvious prejudice against anyone who he perceives as a "Scrounger" I just hope that he never has to go through what I, and many others, have endured through sickness and disability. In my case having to give up a good career while still having a young family. I still enjoy the benefit of a Motability Car but thats all I get having paid my taxes and insurance for over 50 years. It seems to me that there will always be some who will find a way to thwart any system, but please give some credence to the integrity and well being of the vast majority who have to rely on benefits. |
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07 Apr 11 - 07:16 AM (#3130396) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Steve Shaw Well the bottom line is this government is cracking down on the fraudsters Of course they are! Have you seen how bankers' bonuses are, er, virtually unaffected by government policy? And have you seen how much in benefits goes unclaimed because of old people being confronted by impossibly complicated forms and little or no information as to what they are entitled to? And you know about those offshore accounts and those non-doms, do you? Get real, mate. All they're doing is cracking down on kids nicking sweets from Woolworths whilst ignoring the bank robbery going on next door. For many years Labour actively encouraged people to go on the incapacity register. It gets them off the unemployment register you see Nope, that was Thatcher, at the time she was dismantling the industrial base of the country. When she closed mines down almost all the male population of some mining villages went straight on to incapacity benefit (and stayed there for their whole working lives) in a deliberate ploy to keep the unemployment figures down. |
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07 Apr 11 - 07:28 AM (#3130402) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,John MacKenzie For many years successive governments actively encouraged people to go on the incapacity register. It gets them off the unemployment register you see Better? |
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07 Apr 11 - 07:35 AM (#3130407) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Steve Shaw As long as we remember who started it, yes. |
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07 Apr 11 - 09:31 AM (#3130467) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Steve Shaw Benefit fraud, per annum: £1 billion Unclaimed benefits, per annum: £16.8 billion Tax evasion, per annum: £15 billion (have a read: http://www.greenparty.org.uk/news/17-03-2011-tax-evasion-bill-parliament.html ) "Cracking down on the fraudsters" my arse. |
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07 Apr 11 - 10:41 AM (#3130517) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Steve Shaw (And blindly Richie ploughs on...) Government figures for benefit fraud are £1.1 billion per annum. Richie's "statistics" are off some bloke's blog who's got a bee in his bonnet. I note he ignores the rich-guy cheat methods which make benefit fraud look like pilfering paperclips from the office. |
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07 Apr 11 - 10:57 AM (#3130530) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Richard Bridge "Benefit fraud, per annum: £1 billion Unclaimed benefits, per annum: £16.8 billion" Can you actually read, twat? |
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07 Apr 11 - 11:14 AM (#3130546) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Steve Shaw :-) |
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07 Apr 11 - 12:29 PM (#3130603) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Steve Shaw They are the government's figures, for Pete's sake! Hahahaha! |
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07 Apr 11 - 12:55 PM (#3130616) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,Shimrod If you examine the 'politics' of people like 'Nasty Richie' they boil down to two sentences: "People of a lower social status than me are getting more than I think they're entitled to. I will vote for any politician who renders them completely destitute." The 'Nasty Richies' of this world tend not to think things any further through than that - they're too busy 'brown-nosing' the rich and privileged - not that the rich and privileged can give a flying f*ck about pathetic sycophants like 'Nasty Richie'. |
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07 Apr 11 - 02:05 PM (#3130689) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Hey, Richie.... I'm a Carer. I'm one of the many hundreds of thousands of people who get trapped into a low wage...for caring. I normally start my day wiping shit off the toilet. (not mine, I hasten to add) How do you start yours? Every single day I cook and clean for the person I care for. I do the washing, do the shopping, am there each and every day, every single night... The other day I started my morning a little earlier than normal, at 6am picking her up off the floor, after her slipper had slipped away from her foot and CRASH! down she went...luckily, only bruising herself. She's 96 years old... IF she were in a home it would cost you, Richie, a HUGE amount from your tax bill....around £500 a WEEK, for just one little old lady... I get paid, as do all Carers...just under £8....A DAY, for the job I do. That also gets taxed. I've looked after Vi for around 12 years now...and in all that time not one person every told me, until last week, that I could have been claiming Income Support purely because I'm a Carer. ????????????? In fact, you can claim Income Suppport and still have a job of under 16 hours, if you're a Carer. I never knew that..Did you? For years I've been struggling on though, trying to find a job for 16 hours, which would enable me to actually keep my Carer's Allowance, so long as that job is minimum wage of course, because if I earn ONE PENNY over the alloted amount, then the Carer's Allowance is instantly stopped. Carers are hugely discriminated against, and they get the lowest benefit amount of all benefits too. If you're unlucky enough to have to care for MORE than one person, tough...you only get paid for ONE, no matter how many other people you're looking after. And of course, with most jobs these days, they want you there 24/7 at their beck and call, hours going up and down like yoyoyoyoyos...and EVERY single time your weekly/monthly wage changes, you have to inform the Council Tax Office, either by email or by going in to see them, taking your wage slips with you, or sending them in by post. Each time you go to your Council Tax Office you're asked to sit down and wait, given a number, and usually get stared at by yet more Burly Bovver Boys with shaven heads and uniforms, and shoes that would make an Army Captain proud... You say to the overworked staff "How crazy is this situation?!!" and they shake their tired heads and agree with you. There is no threshold of a salary between A and B before everything changes, nope, it's every single time, no matter if pennies go up, or down...They then send out enough bits of paper to remove several acres of Rain Forest alone....and they'll do it the next week, and the week after that, and the week after that, ad infinitum... It probably costs MILIONS, if not BILLIONS of pounds..and you know what Richie, it gets Mr and Mrs. Joe Bloggs so damned down and depressed that they then go on to get those Mars Bar addictions you so kindly ridiculed earlier on, getting fatter and fatter, or...they turn to cheap booze to drown their sorrow and depression... I'm with these folks, Richie, I see them all around me. And you know what, they smile in the same way that I do, if you smile first...Many a time their smiles have many teeth missing though, because they've been drug addicts, or alcoholics. They're thin, wasted, tatooed, desolate, pale, dry skin, dry hair and a look of Utter Hopelessness in their eyes!! When I go to these places I say to the Staff, "Can I have a private room please?" and they get me one. EVERYONE is entitled to ask for this, but few do, because they're so down, so depressed and so past caring...so they sit in line at voluminous desks, attended to by clerks who stare at computers rather than their clients, and fill in their lives on tick box questions asked to them in a situation of no privacy.... And you think these folks would RATHER be THERE than in some wonderful job, being praised to the hilt by bosses who bloody well care about them, pay them a decent wage which enables them to have a house, a family...a LIFE!!!????? You truly sodding think that so many of these Utterly Broken People ENJOY that kind of life???????? Well, I'll tell you why some of them are trapped inside this horrifying situation, because they probably left school with no exams, so they can't tick the bloody internet tick boxes to apply for a job these days. They can't get past Corporate Bastard Stupidity which has now removed people from actually meeting other people or asking if there are jobs going, because so much is done on the internet these days... Ring up Waitrose, Marks & Spencers, ALL of the big retailers and you'll find they're all exactly the same, filled with psychological shit tests they've probably paid The Emperor's New Tailors a BILLION DOLLAR FORTUNE for, and meanwhile, back at the ranch called The Arizona Job Centre, the cowboys and cowgirls sit in line, toothless smiles the last thing on their mind, babies crying for their tea, fathers feeling trapped, mothers hating the world.............because THIS IS their world, Richie....... And Clammy and Gleggy don't want to know about them........They've never mixed with them, probably crossed the street if they saw them trying to sell The Big Issue in Eton, or Oxford... And YOU, Richie, are one of the soldier boys of Clammy and Clegg's Army of The Ruthless, who are happy to annhilate the dreams of your fellow men and women who just happen to be less fortunate than you, for whatever reason.... What a True Hero you are, eh? |
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07 Apr 11 - 02:20 PM (#3130709) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) Probably shouldn't reply to your cynical post Lizzie, but I admire your devotion to this lady, and I think you deserve at the very least a wage, £8 an hour is ridiculous . I imagine you don't do it for the money, but it would be nice to receive an amount an adult could live on. I agree, carers save the system a fortune. It is scandalous what they are paid . Well done, people such as yourself seem to be invisible to the government. |
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07 Apr 11 - 02:46 PM (#3130730) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Lizzie Cornish 1 £8....a *****DAY***** Richie... £8 an HOUR doesn't exist down here in Torquay. Geez, if a job for that amount came up, they'd be quwueing up around Torbay to get it. Look on the Job Centre Plus website, fill in 'all jobs' in 'torquay' and see what comes up. Go into the employment agencies and hear them say "Er...well, there's nothing around at the moment..." Ha, last time I went in one of those places, the bloke said to me.."I think they were advertising in Ann Summers the other day...." Boy, was he sorry he said that!! :0) He then had to listen to a 20 diatribe about sex shops which started with...."Excuse me, but...do I LOOK like the kind of woman who'd step into a sex shop???" I fingered my pearl necklace whilst looking him straight in the eye.....He was young, so he didn't see anything wrong with those kind of shops on the High Street...but by the time I left I had him almost signing up to get them removed from our High Streets for the damage they're doing to little children alone, who walk past those window displays, now thinking that's all a woman is about... It was kinda funny in a way...but also weird, in the weirdest of ways....... Many, many carers do far, far more than I do, Richie...to the detriment of their own health...and whilst I'd imagine none of them do it for the money alone, ALL of them should be allowed to have a decent wage or benefit coming in to support them in what they do, as you say. I'm sorry I had to shock you into seeing how the other half live, but hell, I've been on both sides of the coin here, never rich mind, but often surrounded by those who were in years gone past...but on both sides I always had compassion for others, because I was raised by a highly compassionate man who struggled all his lifelong and died without even the money to bury himself...Yet my Dad had worked hard all his life, been an Optician, but was double crossed by a business partner who sold the shops from under Dad's nose, having just had a 'gentleman's agreement', as many folks did back then. My Dad was honest, so he assumed others were too. He learnt a hard lesson which saw him working into his 70s, and crying one night when he had to ask his son to help him pay his electricity bill. Life spits you out and chews you up sometimes, you know...despite you possibly thinking you have a comfortable life ahead of you for the rest of your days... NEVER feel safe, Richie, not anymore, not these days...and never spit on those less fortunate than you, because one day, they may be the very same people who'll step forward and be the first to offer you a helping hand of friendship... |
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07 Apr 11 - 04:00 PM (#3130776) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: McGrath of Harlow Go to the Daily Mail online if you want the truth And if you want some green cheese, go to the Moon. |
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07 Apr 11 - 06:00 PM (#3130864) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) Lizzie, firstly, please accept my profound apologies for comments and remarks made on previous threads, let's agree I was an arsehole on more than one occasion, add cunt to that if you wish. Secondly, so sorry I misread your comment, Christ, £8 a day ! There is something seriously wrong with the system, I truly believed carers received a living wage. Right, there is abuse of the benefits system, you know it, I know it. It does get on my nerves seeing loafers openly boast about it, I am not talking about newspaper stories here, I see my grandchildren working hard to make ends meet. I also listen to people boast how to milk the system and hassle their doctors saying they have alcohol problems and back conditions. Sad part is, they are actually in-laws of mine. One guy who is on D.L.A. had a heart attack 18 years ago, he claims he can't walk more than a few feet until he is breathless. He has mobility car and works away every other day fitting bloody floor tiles ! His attitude is "clean the bastards." Sad thing is, he raised three protégées. Did I report him ? YES. They sent him out a letter giving him three weeks notice of an interview. He told them we was too ill to attend, they called out to find him in bed, his son in law got him the loan of an oxygen cylinder and mask. The prop worked just fine. Bastard laughed about it. Why could they not have his medical notes on hand and ask who prescribed oxygen ? No I am not jealous, but I am bloody angry that such things are allowed to go on. Some here extreme stories, well this is the other end of the stick. I would not refer to myself as rich, comfortable yes, I made provisions for retirement, the position I held provided a private health care plan. Also some inherited money and land. I was raised a Conservative, I read the Daily Mail and I don't depend on the state for anything and never did. I despise people who leech of the state when they are able bodied and put on a charade for overworked GP's who just want to see the back of them and give them sickness certificates. Right, that's my CV, form a straight line and cut the crap out of it at will. |
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07 Apr 11 - 06:25 PM (#3130894) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Apology fully accepted, Richie. Thank you. xx |
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08 Apr 11 - 07:08 AM (#3131199) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: banjoman Well put Lizzie - I just wish there were a few more like you putting the case to our overpaid pampered politiciains, most of whom have never had to really work a day in their lives. At least you managed something of a back down from Mr Nasty. I am sure that we all agree that there are people who defraud the system but they are very much the minority. Good luck - you deserve all the luck in the world for the job you do -thanks Pete |
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08 Apr 11 - 07:44 AM (#3131215) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Dave Hanson You got admire Richie's balls for admitting he reads the Daily Mail, it's the ' tory wives paper ' FFS Dave H |
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08 Apr 11 - 07:55 AM (#3131222) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Bonzo3legs Elderly folks who are classed as ill and in need of care by the appropriate medical official are provided with free nursing home care whatever their financial circumstances. |
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08 Apr 11 - 07:58 AM (#3131224) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Bonzo3legs In the UK that is. |
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08 Apr 11 - 08:07 AM (#3131228) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) Not so Dave(or Eric)I recall many in the forces read it, do you not ? |
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08 Apr 11 - 09:20 AM (#3131262) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Can we now back off Richie, please. His apology took a lot of guts, imo, and I respect him for that. Thanks. |
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08 Apr 11 - 09:43 AM (#3131279) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Dave Hanson When I was in HM Forces the only papers we read were. Soldier Magazine, Parade Magazine and the News Of The World. Dave H |
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08 Apr 11 - 12:19 PM (#3131378) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: VirginiaTam I appreciate that Richie is seeing how some of his comments really offend and can sort of understand why he is aggravated by abuse he sees first hand. I would like to ask him and others to consider what is the agenda of the news organisation from which they derive "facts." For me the Daily Mail is not a reliable source. I feel it stretches statistics and prints outright lies in order to sell papers. It stirs mud and raises antagonism especially against the liberal left, by any means. The DM tends to appeal to basest part of human nature. I say these things because once upon a time I was card carrying conservative. I was hot headed and loose tongued. (Sometimes I still am but now for the other side.) Now I try to read everything with a critical eye. What has the reporter/ news agency to gain by swaying others to accept his/her/their opinion? Is that gain something that really suits me and what I believe is right and fair? Disinformation tears divides people, communities, nations. And a very few are getting bloody rich and powerful from rolling out a very specific version of "truth." |
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08 Apr 11 - 12:50 PM (#3131395) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Musket In my work, I have been quoted by The Daily Mail twice. Both times inaccurately to the point of twisting the facts. I was not an opinion in a two sided argument, but a spokesman for what had actually happened. Other newspapers have been known to get it wrong too mind. But at the Dept of Health, there is an email every day for those who can be called to speak on behalf of health and social care and it is grouped by interest, such as primary care, commissioning, social care etc. There is a separate section called Daily Mail. Now, why is that, I wonder? |
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08 Apr 11 - 12:53 PM (#3131398) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) Thanks VT, So what newspaper would be a a reliable source ? I am not being funny, I happen to like the Daily Mail. Clearly a lot here don't. It all depends where you stand politically. I sometimes buy The Daily Telegraph. |
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08 Apr 11 - 01:16 PM (#3131414) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Bonzo3legs I like the print in the Daily Telegraph, and I like a big newspaper. |
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08 Apr 11 - 01:19 PM (#3131417) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Bonzo3legs "Elderly folks who are classed as ill and in need of care by the appropriate medical official are provided with free nursing home care whatever their financial circumstances." I understand that this measure was brought in by your dear departed Labour government!!! |
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08 Apr 11 - 05:29 PM (#3131551) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: McGrath of Harlow The Daily Telegraph tends to keep its news coverage separate from its editorialising and comment. Better on foreign news than domestic. |
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09 Apr 11 - 06:17 AM (#3131811) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Bonzo3legs I think you are right McGrath. We'll see what the Buenos Aires Herald has to say tomorrow!! |
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09 Apr 11 - 11:40 AM (#3131929) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Rafflesbear Just over a year ago I was made redundant by my employer after working for them for over 15 years. The job had been comfortably well paid but nothing to get too excited about. I immediately started applying for a new job but, possibly as I am the wrong side of sixty, although I still have a few working years left nothing came of the applications and the few interviews I had were unsuccessful. I did not take jobseekers allowance for two reasons 1 - when I tried to apply I found the whole procedure totally demeaning and I was asked enough questions for it to qualify as identity theft. I did not complete the application but gave up before we reached the one about the colour of the underwear. 2 - I did not want to be considered a scrounger even though I was, according to the rules, entitled to it. The effect that those who decry 'benefit scroungers' have is probably deeper than they realise. My wife and I survived by using up our savings (my son's inheritance), by doing without heating, holidays,travel and by buying only basic foods from cheap supermarkets and spending virtually nothing on anything else. We did not claim any assistance for essential bills, council tax etc. The in-laws helped where they could. A year later I was offered a basic manual job by an agency and accepted it without thinking twice. It is paid a fraction of the previous job and involves anti-social hours but I am just so pleased to be working again. I am not proud of what I have done, I don't think that I am righteous for doing it but at least those who come in these columns sounding off about fraud and cheats and who might have seen me, a fit man capable of work, standing in line being given handouts will be unable to include me in their venomous attacks. Well done lads, you've saved the country some money. But perhaps everyone assumed I was getting benefits anyway. |
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09 Apr 11 - 06:22 PM (#3132149) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: SPB-Cooperator As a side issue, this week DWP released its list of preferred bidders for the Work Programme. The majority are private sector empire builders like Serco, who rather than focus on an area of expertise, bids for contract after contract as they know how to work the tendering process. Usually, the contracts are totally unrelated. |
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09 Apr 11 - 08:54 PM (#3132206) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Richard Bridge If you are entitled to benefits, claim them. Otherwise you are simply giving away money to the rich bastards getting tax beaks. |
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10 Apr 11 - 06:12 AM (#3132301) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Musket Tax beaks? Interestingly, I note that my tax breaks get less the more I earn. Presumably that is what is meant by tax beak. if you are earning it, don't crow about it. |
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10 Apr 11 - 06:28 AM (#3132311) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: SPB-Cooperator Reducing benefits for people who are out of work is fine.... IF.....(1) Government funds public sector jobs. (2) That creating jobs, any jobs, properly paid, takes precedence over shareholder dividends. (3) The public sector and/or private sector funds an adequate and affordable transport service that connects isolated and deprived communities to places of employment. (4) That refusing employment on the grounds of being under/over qualified/experienced is deemed discriminatory and therefore unlawful. Reducing incapacity benefits for those deemed capable of working is fine... IF.....(1) Sufficient investment is made into competitive enterprises where disabilities and long term medical conditions prevent take up of other jobs. (2) Refusing/terminating employment on the grounds of having a disability or limiting medical condition that prevents an employee doing the work they are employed for, and are assessed as fit for employment by the benefit system is deemed discriminatory and therefore unlawful. The underlying point is that if the Private Sector had to bear the brunt of the cost of keeping people off benefits they would probably be lobbying central government to extend the welfare system overnight! Of course there is the elephant in the room. The third alternative which tends to emerge in dictatorships - that the disadvantaged are left to fend for themselves - as in favalas/slums. Of course no political party would ever publicly advocate this. Please feel free do debate this without tin hats and slogan slinging. |
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10 Apr 11 - 07:07 AM (#3132329) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Backwoodsman "If you are entitled to benefits, claim them. Otherwise you are simply giving away money to the rich bastards getting tax beaks. Could you explain how that works please, Richard. I've never heard of a department within the Inland Revenue, DSS or DWP which oversees the redistribution to the rich of benefits which remain unclaimed by those entitled to them. Do you have inside information? |
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10 Apr 11 - 07:53 AM (#3132348) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Musket SPB cooperator. I must admit I am a bit confused about being under qualified is discriminatory? Whilst I am the first to slip the "or equivalent experience" in person attributes to attract a wider range of applicants, there are many jobs where either law, common sense or both have a level of attainment attached. That said, I am of the school that feels that the private sector does not have the capacity to soak up the public sector exodus. I am convinced that early growth (stimulating the economy) is a quicker way to cut the deficit, although I would agree with those who say that we don't have a good track record in keeping spending in harness in the good times. The answer has to be in the middle as ever. Encouraging private sector growth is good, but does not address the underlying issue of the cost of social welfare. Kicking people whilst they are down is not the answer. Welfare benefits are a soft option for this government as very few on benefits vote for small government parties. |
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10 Apr 11 - 10:05 AM (#3132394) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Bonzo3legs Good morning from Buenos Aires, I see that nothing changes when I am away!!! |
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10 Apr 11 - 10:06 AM (#3132395) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Silas Hoist by your own petard - Daily Mail - most people who actually think for themselves would not would not even wipe their arse with the daily mail. |
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10 Apr 11 - 10:38 AM (#3132404) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Silas So..........quantity = quality in your opinion? nuf said. |
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10 Apr 11 - 11:42 AM (#3132447) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) Circulation figures speak for themselves. |
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10 Apr 11 - 12:03 PM (#3132459) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Will Fly Circulation figures speak for themselves. But what do they say? I'm loathe to get into this thread again because stuff such as this is rarely productive but... I happen to know quite a bit about Paul Dacre and his Merry Men. His purpose, and the purpose of the group that owns Mail, is to make money. Money is to be made by selling news - but money is also to be made by giving people what they want to hear. Dacre and his crew play to the populist imagination by the process of demonising certain parts of society and these are, more often than not, the classes of society which can't fight back through the Mail's pages, haven't got the cash to sue them in court or present their view of society. What the Mail is peddling - and other newspapers do it - is not unbiased, factual stuff. All news in most papers, and particularly rags like the mail is skewed to the political viewpoint of the publications owners - and what owners want is sales. A way to start the process is the common practice of demonising your opposition by giving nicknames or sobriquets which denigrate and demean. So, as the US military called the Vietnamese opposition "Viet Cong" - a coined phrase which they invented purely for the purpose - or, more disgustingly "Gooks". So, the Daily Mail carries out the same tactics, skewing data, putting a spin on the news which is alarmist, populist, etc. - all in the name of selling papers and making money by playing to the fears of the people in the street. Let's not call them unemployed people struggling to find work and having to subsist on benefit - no, let's call them scum instead. Makes better headlines and sells more papers. Screw the facts, screw the evidence, screw the statistics, screw everything - just print what sells. Paul Dacre, Robert Maxwell, Conrad Black - let's try demonising them for a change. The Romans called it panes et circae - bread and circuses. It's as old as the hills. Journalism it ain't! |
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10 Apr 11 - 02:52 PM (#3132537) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Dave the Gnome I was down in the Job Centre the other day, looking for er...jobs (ha, fat chance down here in TerribleTorquay) as the one I had is now no longer... Followed by I'm a Carer. I'm one of the many hundreds of thousands of people who get trapped into a low wage...for caring. Is the position of carer the one that is no longer? Or is the postion of carer one that is done in addition to the one that is no longer? If it is the latter how much time does the carer position take compared to the one that is no longer and are the rates paid pro-rata or exclusive to each other? I have every sympathy for both carers and those who have lost their jobs but I am not sure where to best place my sympathies here? DeG (alias Confused of Manchester) |
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10 Apr 11 - 04:20 PM (#3132587) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Joe Offer Mr. Black, if you wish to participate in discussions here, please address other participants with respect. Your name-calling posts were deleted. -Joe Offer, Moderator- |
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10 Apr 11 - 04:28 PM (#3132590) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) Just mine ? Is it permissible for others to do so, or do you practice exceptions ?
-Joe Offer, Forum Moderator- |
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10 Apr 11 - 04:48 PM (#3132599) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Richard Bridge Backwoodsman - if, as this government preaches, they have to balance the books, then if all benefits are taken up they have to raise tax to balance the books. If benefits are not taken up then there is more money to give tax breaks to the filthy rich. |
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10 Apr 11 - 05:02 PM (#3132607) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Lizzie Cornish 1 FeG: "I have every sympathy for both carers and those who have lost their jobs but I am not sure where to best place my sympathies here?" Place your sympathies with those who are Carers AND who also have to work too, because they cannot survive on Carer's Allowance alone. They are allowed to earn a certain amount and not one single penny more, thus making a job even more hard to find, as so many jobs want flexible hours. Please refer to the Carer's Association site for any further confusions you may have. |
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10 Apr 11 - 05:12 PM (#3132613) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,BobL "That creating jobs, any jobs, properly paid, takes precedence over shareholder dividends" No dividends = no investment = no company = no jobs. |
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10 Apr 11 - 05:20 PM (#3132616) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Dave the Gnome No, I understand now. As well as receiving a small ammount of government funding for providing a care service, which presumably can be anything from a couple of hours a week to a full time thing we are also entitled to take time off from caring to do other work. Seems quite reasonable to me. I am just a little surpised that the powers that be have not decided that if someone is available for work they cannot also be available for providing care and are not therefore entitled to any allowance. I suppose it will come... DeG |
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10 Apr 11 - 05:27 PM (#3132618) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Lizzie Cornish 1 To be a Carer, you have to be 'available' for 35 hours a week. You are also 'allowed' to work for around 16 hours a week, providing it's pretty much minimum wage. This means that most Carers work a 51 hour week, for a fraction of the amount most other folks earn. Most Carers would prefer to remain at home caring for the people they care for, but if many of them did, they'd starve to death, lose their homes and generally end up needing to be cared for themselves.... The Carers Association is trying to get the allowance brought into line with other benefits as at present Carers are hugely discriminated against. They save the country hundreds of thousands of pounds a year, probably MILLIONS actually, if not BILLIONS, whilst having to exist on the poverty line themselves.
But the same goes for all of you. You're all showing your worst today, and it's disgusting. Quit the name-calling and carry on a civilized discussion, or your posts will be deleted with no explanation or hesitation - and I'll shut down any thread that becomes contentious. I've had it. -Joe Offer, Forum Moderator- |
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10 Apr 11 - 07:42 PM (#3132696) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Don(Wyziwyg)T ""I would like to ask him and others to consider what is the agenda of the news organisation from which they derive "facts." For me the Daily Mail is not a reliable source. I feel it stretches statistics and prints outright lies in order to sell papers. It stirs mud and raises antagonism especially against the liberal left, by any means. The DM tends to appeal to basest part of human nature."" I would agree with that statement Tam. In fact there is only one change I would make. For "Daily Mail" I would substitute "Newspapers in general", since I can't think of any whose editorial policy will allow truth to get in the way of circulation. Some are worse than others, none are trustworthy, which is why I haven't bought a newspaper in forty years. There was a quote by a celebrity some years back who said "I've never met a nice South African". I have never met an honest newspaper reporter, and if such do exist their editors soon nullify their integrity in their hunger for sales. Don T. |
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10 Apr 11 - 09:45 PM (#3132764) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Bonzo3legs In Argentina I believe that benefits simply don't exists, so thousands of Indians from the north have come to Buenos Aires, make their own goods and sell them in Calle Florida for 15 hours a day - they just get on with it!!! |
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11 Apr 11 - 04:35 AM (#3132870) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) Lizzie, I sincerely hope things improve concerning recognition of carers. I repeat, you do a great job and have my respect. Looks like I have stumbled upon a ring of masons on this site. No worries, I will still say it as I see it, delete my comments to your hearts content Joe. Says more about the inner ring here that it does about freedom of speech. |
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11 Apr 11 - 07:45 AM (#3132949) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Bonzo3legs don't exists!!! It must be the jet lag and huge bife chorizo I had yesterday! |
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11 Apr 11 - 08:28 AM (#3132978) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,Patsy Sadly though there are some people who do not claim because they are too proud to go (even though they they are entitled), never been to one in their lives and then suddenly they find themselves in a position where they have no choice. Some people work hard in their job not taking much sick leave if any and then find their job is redundant it must be so soul destroying to then be face to face with a steely-eyed Jobscentre assistant that hasn't got a clue how the person is feeling inside, I think they know why they put security there, not because of fraudsters more to do with angry frustrated people more like. |
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11 Apr 11 - 10:10 AM (#3133025) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Thank you very much, Richie. Patsy, not all folks who work in Job Centres are hard on the folks who end up there. Some of them are actually very sweet and very helpful. The 'heavies' on the door aren't too welcoming, I have to admit, and sometimes, as in all places, you get the Jobsworths and the resentful ones, but in the main, they're folks just like you and I, worried about their own jobs, depressed at their pay cuts and pay freezes, worrying about paying their own bills...and...worrying about the flood of angry, bewildered and desperate people that will shortly be coming through their doors... If anyone is ever rude to anyone here who has to claim any benefit via a Job Centre, then take their name, make a complaint. Also, everyone is entitled to be seen privately, all you have to do is ask, then wait for a room to become available. This is not always advertised, so you have to ask. |
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11 Apr 11 - 11:44 AM (#3133073) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Rafflesbear Where I went you weren't allowed in the Job Centre to look at the jobs advertised unless you were registered and that had to be done by telephone interview. As I said above, I never made it to being registered so I was not allowed in the Job Centre to look for a job. |
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11 Apr 11 - 01:03 PM (#3133125) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Lizzie Cornish 1 No, that's not true, raffles. Anyone is free to go in to look at the jobs in any Job Centres. I've never ever been stopped. It doesn't even have to be your home town. You can also access the same website via your own computer by googling Job Centre Plus. |
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11 Apr 11 - 01:36 PM (#3133150) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Rafflesbear that's not how it was put to me. There were two people on the door taking your details before they would let you in. no registration, no entry. Tried to sign on at another less intimidating but was told I was out of my area |
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11 Apr 11 - 01:53 PM (#3133161) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: SPB-Cooperator Going back to my personal experience of being on benefits back in 1980, the interview with the then DHSS staff was the most sole-destroying experience possible. I had to get a ticket, and wait ages to see one of two receptionist who had total contempt for everyone there as if everyone was out to steal their money - and that was just to get an appointment with a claimant adviser. If I had the maturity and confidence then that I have now, then maybe I would have imparted a few home truths about their lack of respect. |
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11 Apr 11 - 02:34 PM (#3133199) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Rafflesbear The telephone interview was taking so long that the interviewer said he had to leave and he could either ring me the following day to continue or pass me on to someone else to finish it. |
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11 Apr 11 - 03:12 PM (#3133218) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: MikeL2 hi <" No, that's not true, raffles. Anyone is free to go in to look at the jobs in any Job Centres."> I agree with Lizzie but then maybe I live in an area where things are less intimidating. When I took early retirement I was told by an ex-colleague that I could sign on for unemployment benefit as a right. I went to the Job Centre to do so and was surprised at the ambience and attitudes of the staff there. I was given advice on what my choices were etc and I was treated civilly and discreetly. I had no number nor did I have to sit or stand in any line to get service. During this period I became ill and again at the Job Centre I was given advice on how to claim for Incapacity Benefit and also they made an appointment for me to talk it over with the Citizens's Advice Bureau. Some time later I was asked to attend a medical to ascertain whether I was fit to go back to work. The medical board which consisted of two non doctors found that I was fit to work. I went to see my doctor who wrote to the Board and gave them details of my condition and the result was immediately reversed. Maybe I was unusual in the treatment I received or just lucky but either way my experiences were completely different from some of the harrowing descriptions posted on this thread. Cheers MikeL2 |
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12 Apr 11 - 04:58 AM (#3133541) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,Patsy You are right Lizzie the Jobcentre advisors are in a vulnerable position as the face on view first met by the public and you cannot always predict what is going to happen, that is true. I haven't been in one for a few years now so things may have changed for all I know and it might depend on the area the centre is in. This one was opposite three pubs which didn't help. It did get moved eventually. The last time I accompanied my son they had just brought in a self-use computerised system to find listed job details of which could be printed-off which I thought was a good idea and also still the 'old' way of advertising job advert details written on referenced cards in the different job sections. |
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12 Apr 11 - 03:49 PM (#3133907) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Bonzo3legs My last visit to the Purley Labour Exchange 9 years ago was to "sign off" after just over 2 weeks - much to the annoyance of the lady clerk I spoke to. This was because I had found work from a mail shot I did of around 500 letters - but then I just got on with it, unlike the scroungers who think they are owed a job!! |
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12 Apr 11 - 04:16 PM (#3133925) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Lizzie Cornish 1 Could I suggest everyone simply ignores the fatuous remark above. Thanks. |
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12 Apr 11 - 07:11 PM (#3134020) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Bonzo3legs Thinuous if you're not fat!!! |
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21 Apr 11 - 03:52 PM (#3139853) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Lizzie Cornish 1 This morning I heard David Cameron blowing his top about folks who are drug addicts, alcoholics or obese getting incapacity benefit. He went on to say how hard working people would be sickened and angry to hear this..how wrong it was, etc... What I *didn't* hear him say was WHY people have become thus in the first place, and how his Big Society is going to wrap itself lovingly around those far less fortunate, desperately unhappy and unwell, in order to get them back into society, to a far happier way of life, even finding them jobs if possible in this utterly jobless climate. I stood there for a moment just thinking what a totally heartless bastard he's become. Has he no thought of others...and yet...this man had a severely disabled child himself. Did he not stop to think that people become drug addicted, alcoholic, or obese, because of many dire emotional problems? Or does he simply lose more humanity each and every day. Does he expect folks to stop being heroin addicts immediately they lose their benefit? Does he think they'll all get jobs straight away? I wonder if he claimed benefit for his own severely disabled son whilst he was alive? It made me shake my head in sadness at what is happening in my country. Yes, those who work the system are in the wrong, but to be so insensitive, so dividing, is also very wrong.. |
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21 Apr 11 - 05:25 PM (#3139900) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) Yes Lizzie I saw that interview. I think you will agree, the money given to those addicted to drugs and alcohol would be much better spent on treatment programmes. If someone is overweight and this prevents them from working, send them to see a dietician. These conditions need help, treatment and support, not a pay cheque. It was Labour that actually introduced the benefits review. I would like to see the Social Security budget increased to help those with disabilities. I agree with his comments this morning. All parties agree, that Social Security benefits has become one of the biggest issues on the doorstep due to abuse. Here is an interesting story in today's Daily Mail. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1379150/Ethiopian-family-12-just-landed-Britain-handed-1-460-week-live-vast-London-home.html |
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22 Apr 11 - 03:40 AM (#3140145) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Lizzie Cornish 1 The thing is, Richie, I agree with you very much about treatment programmes, but...until people are on them, either well on their way to getting better, or at least more able to cope with their lives, how are they going to exist? I never give money to folks begging on the streets for instance, because the likelihood is it will just disappear in drink or drugs, making them worse off in the long run, so I buy them some food, some for their dogs, or I buy the Big Issue, helping them to run their own small business which gives them their pride back. What worries me is this is going to be a mass 'cull' of very needy people. I'm lucky, I don't drink, I don't use drugs, I have different ways of coping with the stresses in my life, as many of us do. Yup, like the chocolate now and then, but not to excess. Food is filled with additives these days, chocked full of 'em. They know how the brain functions, the different taste sensations, so in go the chemicals to make the food melt fast, taste overpoweringly wonderful, leave the stomach wanting more, very rapidly...etc..etc..etc..It's horrendous what they do, and it's *part* of the reason why so many folks are now not just a little overweight, but VASTLY so. Add to that a huge dollop of depression, stress, 'happy hours' of cheap booze and an entire drinking culture now firmly embedded into the brainwashed victims of a corrupt Alcohol Industry, who get kids addicted early on with their 'harmless' alcopops...and well, you can see why it's all happening. So many people are stressed out, actually hating the way they're living their lives, but unable to jump of this conveyer belt of Corporate Evil which has enveloped so many of them since birth. Women are told, encouraged, almost emotionally blackmailed to go out to work as well as raising a family, so they turn to cheap, fast food, to feed their children because they're often knackered at the end of a busy day, then they come home and start all over again with their family..and it's more often than not the woman who is left to deal with that side of things. We have allowed a 'life' to be created which is actually no life at all, and so many are imploding because of it. Society is broken, people can't cope, and so the drink, the drugs and the food help to ease the burden in a climate of no sympathy, work work work, earn earn earn, spend spend spend... In Torbay I live amongst two different societies, VERY different societies. There is the wealthy one, the ones who cruise the bay in their open-topped sports cars, simulating a Monaco-like existence, expensive clothes, jewels dripping off. They shop in Hoopers, the posh department store, or the out-of-town shopping centre where Marks & Spencers has escaped to, or they go into Exeter or Totnes for most other things. They live in big expensive houses with magnificent views over Torbay, and in their world, everything is wonderful, beautiful place to live, lovely views.... Then there is the other side of the Bay.... This is where Social Workers abound, amongst families who have imploded...teenage mums who so often didn't want the children in the first place, but who could see no other way out, or felt it was simply what you do to get to the next step in life. There are many drug centres in town, many drug addicts, either on-going, or recovering. They look so ill, so utterly worn down and worn out. I have no idea what help they're given in these centres, unless it's purely to get off the drugs and little else. I'd hope they're also being helped back into some kind of life, but I have a terrible feeling they're not. Torbay Health Authority is millions of pounds in debt. It has a huge social problem, huge. There are many residential homes for those with learning difficulties, more than I have ever seen in other places....and so many lost souls who use the buses, smelling of drink, tattoed all over, hair thinning, faces filled with piercings. It really is shocking. You rarely see the wealthy shopping in town...other than to dash into Hoopers and out again. Nearly all the decent shops have gone, pulled out to the shopping centre, or back 'home' to Exeter. Go into the shopping centre area though, and it's like a different world. Middle England abounds, folks are happy, well dressed, well fed, pretty content with their lot basically. David Cameron needs to live the lives of the drug addicts for several years. He needs to know the feeling of no hope, the anxiety that brought them to that stage in the first place...He needs to understand how it is to live from week to week on benefits, with no hope of your life ever getting better...and why folks then pick up another bottle, take another swig, have another 'fix', stuff another cake into their mouths.... I am not saying that ALL people are genuine cases, and I get as incensed as anyone else about folks who abuse the system, laugh all the way to the bank, or come over here then set up their own businesses in how to abuse the system. It drives me nuts, and yes, it HAS to be stopped.. But somehow, we also need to ensure that we remain the compassionate country we once were. More than that, we need to face up to why so many people now see their lives through the end of a bottle, a needle, or a cake. I was lucky, I lived in A Time Of Hope, where I knew I could get a job whenever I wanted. I knew that one day, I'd probably get married, be able to afford a house, have children... That has now all gone for so very many people, and I think the number of people unable to cope with all of this will actually hugely increase over the next few years. It is so easy to criticise when you have never had to worry about money in your entire life, when you have been nurtured, protected and supported at every turn. David Cameron is already at the point in his life where no matter what happens, he will be well off, comfortable, for the rest of his days. He has a safety net, in which he knows any fall with be immensely cushioned...and he will survive. For so many, they are trapped in this Greatest Show on Earth, the one where The Ringmasters rule the Circus with their whips and shouting voices. They rule over all their performers who now live their lives walking the highest of tightropes, every muscle and nerve teetering to the extreme...all they have to keep them upright is their balancing pole...That is about to be snatched away from so many, and they have no safety net, just a long fall, downdowndeeperanddown, into the very depths of the Circus Pit, where their own phantoms lie waiting to greet them. My blood is growing ever colder at what I see happening in my own country. |
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22 Apr 11 - 05:12 AM (#3140183) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email) Excellent post Lizzie. We must offer treatment to those in need of help, and they should receive a decent living allowance while undergoing treatment for their addiction. The truth is, thousands of people have been on incapacity benefit for more than a decade for alcohol, drug addiction and obesity. Something should have been done for them during that time besides handing them cash. Officials figures show that 135,000 people have been off work for a decade with depression, 1,360 because they have diarrhoea and 6,740 because they have severe stress. More than 76,000 of them have not been examined for a decade. It's not fair on anyone for this situation to continue. Far from being the safety net it should be, the benefits system has trapped thousands of people in a cycle of addiction and welfare dependency with no prospect of getting back to work. We need to put an end to this. It is wrong to allow people to be left on benefits and forgotten about. That's why they have already started reassessing everyone on incapacity benefit and will support people with addictions to help them back into work. The fact is, we are borrowing 400 million a day to survive, effectively we are bust. We pay 60 billion a year in interest on our sovereign debt more than our defence budget. A lot of them claiming are also working cash in hand, A friend of mine runs a construction company and countless people ask him for work and they tell him they want cash in hand as they are claiming benefits. Just image if he did employ them and they had an accident. There is abuse, we all know it. Let's hope the assessments are fair and money is spent on treatment. |
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22 Apr 11 - 05:51 AM (#3140201) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,Eliza If it were possible to help those people who have been on long-term benefits to become well again and fit for work, no-one seems to be able to explain WHERE the jobs would come from. In this region (East Anglia) jobs are very hard to come by, especially unskilled ones. The unemployed should also be helped with courses and re-training so they can look for jobs with vacancies. They should also be given support by mentors and health workers while they readjust to a working life. And prospective employers should be offered incentives to take them on, otherwise they probably won't be interested in someone who's been off work for a long time with problems. And I totally agree that folk with alcohol, drug-addiction etc are NOT TO BLAME for their predicament. I met many young men while Prison Visiting who had addictions, and their lives as children and youngsters would make ones hair stand on end; abuse, neglect, violence, the lot. Also, the Human Genome Project has unearthed several genes for addiction. If one is born with these, one will be predisposed to becoming an addict, either to food, alcohol, gambling or drugs. I say, 'There but for the grace of God...' |
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07 Dec 11 - 12:53 PM (#3269903) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,Bluesman Excellent news to report regarding benefits. Support for government on the rise. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2070912/Britain-turns-conservative-values-recession-bites.html |
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07 Dec 11 - 12:57 PM (#3269911) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Richard Bridge Frankly, it is a source of shame for the country and the result of the propaganda of bigotry. |
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07 Dec 11 - 03:01 PM (#3269970) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,Bluesman In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king. |
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09 Mar 12 - 10:30 AM (#3320453) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,Bluesman Many still ask why this government has to reform the UK benefits system. This story is a great example why. http://uk.news.yahoo.com/benefits-cheat-faked-death-jailed-222517966.html |
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09 Mar 12 - 12:15 PM (#3320500) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Richard Bridge Looks like a very good example of no reform being needed - he was not enitled to what he claimed, he committed fraud, and he got caught. Your point, exactly? |
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09 Mar 12 - 12:53 PM (#3320508) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,Bluesman PROSECUTIONS for benefit fraud in the UK are on the increase. In the 2009/10 financial year, my local Council prosecuted 148 people for benefit fraud. The following year 2010-11, this had risen to 357. I contacted my local MP Mark Reckless he assured me they will recover the full monies swindled in this case. I contacted my friend Councillor Ted Baker, he told me: "We will not tolerate benefit fraud. It's a misconception that benefit fraudsters do not affect anyone else as they are stealing money that could otherwise be paid to those genuinely in need, or help to pay for services to our residents. "Anyone contemplating claiming benefits to which they are not entitled should be aware that our investigators have enhanced powers, access to much more information to detect fraud and that we will not hesitate to bring these cases to the courts." |
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09 Mar 12 - 02:42 PM (#3320555) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: VirginiaTam I have only just 2 months ago (after 6+ years suffering) applied for DLA (still waiting on decision). It took the death knell of my GP suggesting I might want to look into medical retirement from my job and the nearly being made redundant at Christmas to get me to finally apply for DLA, Bluebadge, etc. I guess I've spent over £500.00 paying for taxis to and from work and hospital appointments when I was too ill to walk over the last 2 years. As a now self-admitting disabled person I have joined forums and networking groups inside and out of work, where I hear horror stories of people being tipped out of their wheel chairs, called scum and scroungers and told to get up and walk. Some physically attacked. Some blocked, prevented from accessing public transport, entrance into buildings. I get angry stares when I take my walker/transit chair on the bus and have to request the dedicated wheel chair space when fit people are sitting there. Evidently I must be a scrounger in their eyes. I had to take documents for verification into the local Job Centre when applying for Access to Work Fares to Work because the bus stops are too far from the 2 different offices at which I work. The media that focuses on one cheat makes life harder for all the genuinely vulnerable and disabled. |
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10 Mar 12 - 05:50 AM (#3320829) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: theleveller "PROSECUTIONS for benefit fraud in the UK are on the increase." Yes and it's hardly surprising, given that this immoral and uncaring government is taking away the vital support that so many of the most vulnerable people in our society need to exist. Indeed, it could be argued that, when the rich are encouraged and applauded for using every method of making themselves richer, and the gap between rich and poor is increasing exponentially, people are morally justified in taking what they need and the state is wrong to prevent them Here's what one of the greatest writers of the 19th century, Oscar Wilde, who was a libertarian socialist/anarchist, has to say on the matter in his excellent essay 'The Soul of Man under Socialism': "We are often told that the poor are grateful for charity. Some of them are, no doubt, but the best amongst the poor are never grateful. They are ungrateful, discontent, disobedient and rebellious. They are quite right to be so……Why should they be grateful for the crumbs that fall from a rich man's table? …..to recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less. Man should not be ready to show that he can live like a badly-fed animal. He should decline to live like that, and should either steal or go on the rates, which is considered a form of stealing. As for begging, it is safer to beg than to take, but it is finer to take than to beg. No: a poor man who is ungrateful, unthrifty, discontented, and rebellious, is probably a real personality, and has much in him." |
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10 Mar 12 - 09:10 AM (#3320894) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Steve Shaw "We are often told that the poor are grateful for charity. Some of them are, no doubt, but the best amongst the poor are never grateful. They are ungrateful, discontent, disobedient and rebellious. They are quite right to be so……Why should they be grateful for the crumbs that fall from a rich man's table? …..to recommend thrift to the poor is both grotesque and insulting. It is like advising a man who is starving to eat less. Man should not be ready to show that he can live like a badly-fed animal. He should decline to live like that, and should either steal or go on the rates, which is considered a form of stealing." Someone should have told that to Mother Teresa, surely the most overrated person who ever lived. Our life of poverty is as necessary as the work itself. Only in heaven will we see how much we owe to the poor for helping us to love God better because of them. Yeah, right. Don't even think of fighting it, though. |
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10 Mar 12 - 11:21 AM (#3320945) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,Shimrod Let's not forget the bankers - some of whom have had their bonuses SAVAGELY cut!! Oh, the injustice of it!! If we're not careful they'll stamp their feet and move somewhere else. Let's start being nice to them - they're working hard to lose our money! But then there's bankers whose bonuses have increased ... so I suppose it all balances out in the end ... |
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10 Mar 12 - 12:47 PM (#3320971) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST It is called rewarding the staff Shimrod, if we don't allow it think of the mess the country would be in. |
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11 Mar 12 - 08:21 AM (#3321241) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: SPB-Cooperator No, its called rewarding the executives for the hard work the workers do to line the pockets of the shareholders. |
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11 Mar 12 - 08:41 AM (#3321253) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Richard Bridge What Birdy said. |
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11 Mar 12 - 10:12 AM (#3321281) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,Bluesman Gordon Brown inflicted more damage on the British economy and on its public finances than any banker could ever do. Socialists only see what they want to see. Their ignorance is matched only by their stupidity. |
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12 Mar 12 - 09:17 AM (#3321690) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,Patsy There are people who have never claimed benefits in their life or aware of what benefits they might be entitled to. Funny how slow off the mark they all are to inform some people that they could be owed money. |
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12 Mar 12 - 09:35 AM (#3321697) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,Bluesman And there are some people very switched on. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/3381173/Returning-Polish-workers-encouraged-to-keep-claiming-British-benefits.html |
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12 Mar 12 - 10:07 AM (#3321709) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Richard Bridge Ah, a seamless move from hyperventilation about people claiming benefits to which they were not entitled (and getting caught and punished) to hyperventilating about the fact that people are entitled to claim benefits and - shock horror - claim what they are entitled to. Maybe a course in logic might help. |
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12 Mar 12 - 11:05 AM (#3321735) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,CS If they were working prior to leaving the UK, then presumably they are being advised to apply for "earnings-related" unemployment benefit - to which they have contributed in the form of National Insurance. Three months is the fixed term they are entitled to claim for. |
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12 Mar 12 - 01:23 PM (#3321794) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,Eliza Early on in this thread there were criticisms of the Job Centres and the staff employed there. I have to say that the Job Centre in Norwich is absolutely first-rate. The staff are friendly and interested, the Security personnel are very pleasant and the building has been refurbished to a high standard. It now looks like a modern office with matching furniture and light wood tables. The only downside is a minority of the clientele,filthy dirty and reeking of cigarettes and cannabis, who slope in and slope out, having tied their dogs and babies up outside. They're rude to eachother and to the staff and if I were an employer I wouldn't touch them with a bargepole. What is saddening is the respectable person with desperation on their face, trying with all their might to scan the Jobs Sections and the websites, obviously devastated to find themselves without work. Not all Jobseekers are scroungers. |
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12 Mar 12 - 02:31 PM (#3321824) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,CS "downside is a minority of the clientele,filthy dirty" You definitely get some scumbags who can be abusive to staff and generally a bit scary, but as to "filthy, dirty" in particular it's also worth realising that some of those people may be vulnerable people who may for example have difficulty keeping themselves sober and generally together and/or are living rough and without access to soap and clean clothes. |
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12 Mar 12 - 02:39 PM (#3321831) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,Bluesman Most sign on "the sick" that way you get more money and don't have to go looking work. Bad backs and depression top the list according to a guy who works in fraud dept, that I have become friendly with recently. |
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12 Mar 12 - 03:47 PM (#3321879) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Steve Shaw You clearly do not understand the welfare system as it applies to people in ill-health. To use not-so-masterly understatement, getting yourself on to sickness benefits these days is not exactly a walk in the park. I could suggest that you actually investigate this for yourself before making such ignorant remarks. Then again, you probably don't want to risk having your prejudices shattered. |
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12 Mar 12 - 04:10 PM (#3321888) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,Bluesman I wouldn't worry too much about it Steve, the government has everything in hand and doing a decent job dealing with the problem. |
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12 Mar 12 - 04:48 PM (#3321902) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Steve Shaw The government is doing a decent job of making millions of people suffering ill-health feel extremely insecure, using, for example, foreign agencies such as ATOS, hardly revered for their humanity, at a time when there are no jobs. It is also doing a more-than-decent job of leaving the stinking rich severely alone, even threatening to cut the 50% tax rate whilst indulging in waffle-talk about "mansion taxes," etc. Tax avoidance by big companies and wealthy individuals make the annual benefits bill look like small change, and nothing is going to happen to fix that any time soon. |
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12 Mar 12 - 05:01 PM (#3321908) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,Bluesman Steve, I feel the government is right in what it is doing. The mess was created by Labour, they allowed the work-shy to make a laughing stock of the benefits system. Free cars is the biggest joke. Bring back the three-wheeler and see how many apply for one. Those who suffer from ill health have nothing to fear. Read the stories day and daily in the press about false claims and families living off our backs. This government looks after those who are prepared to work, not scrounge. Too many here beating on about bankers. We have to reward those in key positions, the wage reflects the skill. |
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12 Mar 12 - 05:35 PM (#3321916) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: VirginiaTam Free cars? That's news to me. Motability recipients receive assistance "purchasing" the appropriate vehicle to meet their needs. The benefit pays for the modification. Some vehicles are modified for the disabled driver, some are modified for the disabled passenger. But the cars are not free. They are available through lease purchase with some financial assistance. I have friends in some of the disability networks who fully support the PIP assessments to be carried out by ATOS. They believe the truly disabled will be more protected by the new system. Others are not so convinced. Upon reading how the terminally ill and severely disabled fail the PIP, and that ATOS representatives treat all as though they are cheats, I too have my reservations. I echo CS' comment about the unwashed and ill-mannered. Judge not, etc. My recent visit to the Job Centre to have documents verified I saw people from all walks. But none of them "sloped." They were all engaged in either quiet searching, discussions with staff, or queuing. |
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12 Mar 12 - 06:08 PM (#3321924) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Richard Bridge I seem to remember Bluesman being on the chat at some stage. Anyone genuinely from Medway will know what that means. I forget what his disability or handicap was. It's very clear that most members of the worst parts of the UK lunatic right are claimants, simply by estimating the spare time they have to harass others. It's quite an irony that if their hoped for devastation of the welfare state took place they would be the first in front of the firing squad. |
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12 Mar 12 - 07:07 PM (#3321948) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Steve Shaw I'm afraid that Bluesman and I have far too little in common for us to have a reasonable conversation about this. |
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12 Mar 12 - 07:28 PM (#3321951) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Richard Bridge Don't worry Steve you are perfectly right in your views. |
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12 Mar 12 - 08:28 PM (#3321957) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Steve Shaw Just a point of information about the so-called "free cars" that so many sickness benefit-opposers love to rant on about. First, you do not get given a car. You lease a car under the scheme. Second, you can only take part in the Motability scheme if you receive the Higher Rate Mobility Component (HRMC) of the Disability Living Allowance (DLA) - currently £51.40 per week. You are allowed to use some or all of this allowance to offset the cost to you of leasing the car. If you choose a cheap car, the allowance might just cover the cost, but if you choose a more expensive car (one you can easily stash your wheelchair in, for example) you can pay extra on top of your HRMC. In addition, you may have to pay an upfront fee (which could be as much as £2000 or more) on top in order to get a more expensive model. So, even with the cheapest car in the scheme, you are not getting it free and you do not own the car. Finally, I suggest that anyone who still wishes to whinge on about this scheme, which is there to help the most disabled people in the country to get around a bit more easily, takes a look at just how bloody hard it is to qualify for that allowance. I apologise to those who find that their prejudices are inconvenienced by hard facts. I do not receive the allowance, therefore do not partake in the scheme, by the way. |
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12 Mar 12 - 08:58 PM (#3321972) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Steve Shaw One more thing: let's nail this business once and for all that it's all "a mess created by Labour." In the last 30 years in this country it has been the Tories who have been the party of mass unemployment, by a bloody long chalk. It was Thatcher who destroyed the industrial base of this country (and kick-started the cult of deregulation of the banks, lest we forget) and who put millions on to incapacity benefit to keep the already highly-embarrassing unemployment figures down. Destroyed whole communities and put droves of hard-working people on to a permanent scrap-heap, she did, and we are still living with the legacy of all that. |
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13 Mar 12 - 01:17 AM (#3322055) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Richard Bridge If I were a religious man I might say "amen" to that. |
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13 Mar 12 - 04:03 AM (#3322088) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish The company employed to get people off DLA gets paid for each and every person they take off the list. Do the math. It ain't rocket science. I'm glad my Darlin' Dad is dead, for he'd have wept tears at what is happening in his country today. He went to war AGAINST people like this. Seems to me the Nazis didn't lose, they merely went on a very long holiday to South America for Rest, Relaxation and Re-Grouping before they launched their final and most deadly assault on the world. This thread was picked up again purely to upset, which the person who's done that sits behind his screen chuckling in delight. All I can say to anyone who thinks that living on Job Seeker's Allowance is a doddle is....Live the Life first, with no hope of ever getting a job in sight. Live that Life knowing that it will never change, that you will never be able to keep properly warm in the winter, or live anywhere half-decent, or go on holiday, or have fun, or be able to treat yourself now and then... The same goes for those on most other benefits...It is a life of struggle. There will always be those who abuse the system, but they are the minority, NOT the majority. There are many, many MPs who've been far more crooked in their time..and I believe that what is happening at present, turning people against each other, making out all benefit claimants are scum, is a backlash for how the press treated the MPs..They loathed the fact they'd been found out, so they've spun it round, making out that the ordinary bloke in the street, forced out his job, ill, or disabled in some is the biggest scrounger going... It's been done very cleverly, through news items, special TV programmes etc... As for some folks who turn up at Job Centres being dirty, having a dog, or a baby, being abusive....well, so often these are the very people who start off in life being stamped FAILURE. They come from unhappy homes, more often than not...are humiliated and shouted at by the school system who wants well behaved clones, not damaged individuals, or those geniuses-in-waiting who have ADHD, or are on the Autism/Dyslexia circle... And so, they learn to Lose Hope very early on in life, drifting into Unhappy Gangs of the Damaged where they find some kind of Solace and Kindness from each other... Torquay is filled with such folks... There is a sweet lassie I see very often called Jenny, she's quite young, with a small child...She's without doubt an alcoholic, her skin is scarlet and weathered and she's often to be seen sitting on the pavement playing her flute. She's dressed in old woollies to keep out the cold...but she always has a smile for everyone, even those who practically hold their noses as they walk past her...I gave her some books the other day and she was SO thrilled, saying she'd read them to her daughter (some were my children's books from way back)....She sings on the bus, to herself, to others..and she chatters away to everyone, even those who don't want to listen to her...She tells them how beautiful they all are, how much she loves them.....Sometimes she looks very dirty and scruffy depending on how her days have gone, but always her shining smile is there, despite her rough, tough life... And yes, 'they' gather outside Torquay Job Centre, the Rough'n'Tough, but sometimes they are the very people who will open doors for you..and if you smile at them first they will ALWAYS smile back, for so often they are The Gentle Ones, harmed deeply by society and by those who regard them as scum, who have ended up this way due entirely to themselves... There but for the Grace of God, whomsoever your god may be "My Religion is Kindness" - The Dalai Lama....... |
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13 Mar 12 - 04:11 AM (#3322090) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish And as for the dogs, well..often they are the only creatures who love that particular person with all their heart. Everyone needs love...and I've never seen any of the Desperate Folks ill-treating their dogs. As to the babies, I see so many people who seem to loathe their children, who work, are 'wealthy'...but their children are out of control, unloved, but with every materialistic gadget going...They are breeding the next generation of those who wait outside the job centres. As for being abusive to staff..well, it's easy to be abusive when you're desperate, I guess....and there are MANY very desperate people out there. It is going to get a LOT worse, so open up your hearts to them.... (apologies for the spelling mistakes and missed/wrong words above. The old dyslexia brain cell is working well today, as is the other brain cell which always 'writes and posts' instantly, forgetting to read through first) |
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13 Mar 12 - 04:21 AM (#3322094) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST Steve, people have to accept change, you must first understand why the changes are needed. The government has made intelligent decisions about how to introduce the change. I fully support it. You will always find people wishing to blame something that goes wrong in their life on government. They just need someone to blame. I recall some years back, someone blaming a death by natural causes on the National Health Service. They made all sorts of wild accusations about the level of care they administered. Our health service and benefits system are second to none. Both are in safe hands with this government. Abuse of Mobility is nothing new. http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/westminster_hall/2000/apr/04/mobility-benefits-northern-ireland |
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13 Mar 12 - 04:22 AM (#3322096) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,Bluesman The post above is mine. |
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13 Mar 12 - 05:09 AM (#3322106) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Richard Bridge Now there's a surprise. Not. Remind us White Man, what was that a few months, maybe a year ago, about you having a medical disability? And yes indeed, Medway Maritime Hospital did kill my late wife. Much more surprising, I was agreeing with the fluffy one, until she went off again trying to defend those who don't want to learn, but just to stare out of the window at the pwetty squiggles. |
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13 Mar 12 - 05:20 AM (#3322109) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,CS "they are The Gentle Ones, harmed deeply by society and by those who regard them as scum," Sounds like you might possibly be describing a particular subculture known as 'Crusties', they are a kind of anarchic anti-capitalist hippy. Many choose to 'drop out' as a semi-political act of non-participation in the 'evils' of our current system as they see it (environmental damage caused by rampant capitalism/economic and social inequality/the individual being swamped by faceless government etc.). The rosy cheeks of your woolly clad lady might be the consequence of living an outdoors life - many also live on boats and in vans. |
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13 Mar 12 - 05:45 AM (#3322114) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish Yes, thank you, I fully realise why her cheeks are red.. Richard, for a lawyer I truly don't understand why you can't get your head around the fact that people learn diffently. You cannot have a system where ALL are forced to learn in one way. It does not work, it has never worked, it will never work. And as 'every 20 minutes a child is born with autism'...and that 'circle' involves MANY different ways of seeing/understanding the world, I can only say that unless the Edukashum System can get their head aroud that fact, we will see more and more people spat out by a System which basically doesn't give a fuck for anyone who is not 'academic'. Kick the Academics out of The System and let The Empaths take over..and THEN there may just be a chance that this Humanity may survive...for at present we are on a Handcart to Hell, for sure.. Thank you, Fluff |
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13 Mar 12 - 05:50 AM (#3322115) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,Bluesman Well you can all talk until you are blue in the face, the changes are on the way so accept them. I feel reforms to the benefits system are fair. |
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13 Mar 12 - 05:50 AM (#3322116) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Keith A of Hertford Kia Motability Motability is a worry-free car lease package for disabled drivers. It can mean a brand new car every three years, for anyone receiving the higher rate motability component of the Disability Living Allowance (DLA), or War Pensioners' Motability Supplement (WPMS). You don't even need to be able to drive – as part of your lease you can nominate up to two drivers. The package includes: Insurance, Servicing and Maintenance, Full RAC breakdown assistance, Annual Car Tax, replacement tyres, windscreen replacement, Many adaptations at no extra cost, 60,000 mileage allowance over 3 year lease. |
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13 Mar 12 - 05:53 AM (#3322117) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,Bluesman Lizzie, this may help. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipsychotic |
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13 Mar 12 - 05:59 AM (#3322119) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Keith A of Hertford Some 200,000 cars are registered to be used by the disabled person's relatives or friends. More than 3,000 families with a child suffering from Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) or "naughty child syndrome" are eligible for the scheme, which can be worth £2,500 a year towards a car. Iain Duncan Smith, the Work and Pensions Secretary, is determined to stop what he regards as abuse of free cars for the disabled as part of his campaign to curb the UK's annual £192billion benefits bill. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/8842236/Motability-car-charity-moves-to-stop-abuse-of-benefits.html |
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13 Mar 12 - 06:12 AM (#3322123) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,Bluesman We all know that unscrupulous parents seek diagnosis of this pie in the sky thing called "ADHD" to get benefits. In my day it was called bad parenting. Many people, including teachers, are sceptical as to whether the condition isn't simply a way for bad parents to excuse the bad behaviour of their children. I have heard it theorised that ADHD is a problem caused by middle class parents who aren't prepared to smack their children and demand a label when their children struggle at school, or that ADHD is a problem caused by working class parents who feed their children junk food and abandon them to the television. There are thousands of people on DLA under the age of 16, the government are aware a lot of it is fraud. DLA fraud is on the rise, facts prove this. There must be a clamp down on the massive fraud. The government is able to justify the cuts and I am glad to say, increased checks are in store for everyone on disability benefits. |
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13 Mar 12 - 06:56 AM (#3322136) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish Well, you'd best take the ADHD 'mystery' up with Rory Bremner, hadn't you...for he too has it... It is a brain which sparks and fizzes..a thousand thoughts that go out into the universe like bright lights.. You'll find that MANY of the best creative people have it.. I can tell those who do have it in an instant, see the way their minds work, their bodies move... As a child I was never still, ever.. To this day, when I talk my head is having several other conversations...When I talk to someone with a like minded brain we can cover a myriad of thoughts in a few moments,sparking off each other as each word instantly opens up a new path with thousands more thoughts upon it, each of those also leading to many other paths... Watch Lee Evans....watch many of the great, fast-witted, fast-thinking comedians, entertainers.... Then get your narrow minded way of thinking out of its box and into Reality Land and realise the damage that is being done to so many. I found most of my teachers boring as hell... I have no interest in talking about one subject, in one way, or learning something in someone's else's way..I do not want to study the same book for two years, listening to some boring ol' fart pontificating about what Shakespeare (insert author/poet of choice) ACTUALLY MEANT from 'that sentence' because I know that ONLY Shakespeare himself would actually know... Some of the best and brightest brains end up on the streets because of how they've started in life, often being told how stupid/thick/ignorant/lazy they are, when they are the exact opposite.... |
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13 Mar 12 - 06:59 AM (#3322137) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Keith A of Hertford Yes Lizzie. I work with excluded children. The condition is real but does any other country provide the parents with such a benefit? |
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13 Mar 12 - 07:01 AM (#3322139) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish YOU WOULDN'T KNOW IT TO LOOK AT ME^^^ (Barry Finn) "You're not listening to me. Are you deaf in both ears? Don't you see what you've caused? Have you been blind all these years? Could you just give an answer, so I know you're not dumb? For Christ's sake, you bird brain, has a cat got your tongue?" Cho: I'm as cute as any other kid. I can run, jump and shout. You wouldn't know it to look at me. At times, I can't work things out. I'm not stupid. I'm not lazy. I try very hard. With a little compassion, I could go pretty far. Well, school is a torture. The teasing won't quit. My thoughts go off track and my aide has a fit. There are some things I excel in, so much that I'm bored. You wouldn't know it to look at me. It takes all that I'm worth. The kids scorn and laugh at me. I don't have a friend. You can feel my heart break. I wonder when this will end. The mistreatment and abuse I take, it's really a crime, But I'm told to ignore it, though it happens all of the time. I know it's hard on my family. I can't change a thing. The aunts and uncles blame it on my folks and say it's poor upbringing. The love and affection others get all the time, I only hear people yell at me, when I ask, "Where is mine?" I never feel comfort, no shoulder, no hug. A system to support me was pulled out like a rug. If you can't understand this, you may be worse off than me, But I won't hold it against you, 'cause you're deaf and can't see. I may be mildly autistic or just plain O. C. D. I may twitch with Tourette's, or have A. D. D. If you see me cross my eyes, instead of my T's, You wouldn't know it to look at me that I have special needs. Words, (c) Barry Finn, 1998.^^^ Tune, traditional Australian, "One Of The Has Beens." |
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13 Mar 12 - 07:14 AM (#3322148) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish I think it's a mark of what a wonderful country we 'were' that parents with children who have severe ADHD are given help towards a car, to the value of £2,5000 a year... I never knew you could get it. I watched my friend struggle terribly with her son, who has Aspergers and ADHD. She barely wanted to take him out to public places in the end. They were lucky, they could afford a car, for her husband had a job and his dad is very wealthy. However, had she NOT had a car of her own then taking her son *anywhere* on public transport would have been a total bloody nightmare...and the very people on this thread who are tut-tutting would have been the same ones who, if having to share a bus/coach/train with a child like hers, would be saying "How DISGUSTING to have a child like THAT!!" annoyed at having their peace and quiet disturbed, probably wanting 'kids like that' to be banned from public transport entirely! Bastards! And yes, Ben is now all growed up..much better having been to a special school (his grandpa paid) where children with ADHD/ADD/Dyslexia/Autism were fully understood and cared for, each child taught in the way they could learn, naturally, thus removing the 'You are SO STUPID!' label from their souls.... He still has problems, but is able to step back, mostly, and cope with them. He will ALWAYS have problems, but again, as he gets older, hopefully, he will be able to cope more and more. Ben is one of the lucky ones...Parents who both care, Grandparents who are filthy rich...Had his grandfather NOT been around, then his life would have been very different, for whilst in the state system he ended up on the outside window-sill of his bedroom, wanting to end his life. He was 10 years old..bullied senseless by both pupils and teachers who could not cope with him... He wouldn't LEARN in THEIR way, you see...and being around so many other children scared him senseless..... So fook everyone on here who thinks that 'children like this' are making it up, or being foul..for it is a life-long way of life for them...they merely think differently..and they are NOT YOU! |
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13 Mar 12 - 07:15 AM (#3322149) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Richard Bridge I see you have not come clean on your previous claims to have an injury or a disability or something Bluesman. Do I really have to go to hunt for it? |
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13 Mar 12 - 07:18 AM (#3322151) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish And so many of them are the ones who, despite Rich Talents, end up in the Job Centres for most of their lives..being called 'unemployable little b'stards' by folks who have such narrow thinking brains, such un-feeling souls, such a deep inability to think "WHY are their lives like this?" that the whole Feckingly Awful Circle keeps on and on spinning out of control, more and more and more...... As I said...there but for the Grace of your God! |
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13 Mar 12 - 07:26 AM (#3322153) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish LEARN!! EDUCATE YOURSELVES!! UNDERSTAND THE HORRENDOUS DAMAGE BEING DONE BY THOSE WHO DON'T UNDERSTAND and DON'T **WANT** TO UNDERSTAND! Rory Bremner 'ADHD & Me' - BBC iPlayer Rory - BBC article ' ADHD rings such a bell with me' |
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13 Mar 12 - 07:56 AM (#3322169) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,Bluesman Sorry Richard, I was unaware you were addressing me. Your remark was addressed to someone called Whiteman. Yes I did receive injuries while serving in Ulster. |
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13 Mar 12 - 08:17 AM (#3322176) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Steve Shaw Kia Motability Motability is a worry-free car lease package for disabled drivers. It can mean a brand new car every three years, for anyone receiving the higher rate motability component of the Disability Living Allowance (DLA), or War Pensioners' Motability Supplement (WPMS). You don't even need to be able to drive – as part of your lease you can nominate up to two drivers. The package includes: Insurance, Servicing and Maintenance, Full RAC breakdown assistance, Annual Car Tax, replacement tyres, windscreen replacement, Many adaptations at no extra cost, 60,000 mileage allowance over 3 year lease. Well, Keith, I think that's all very fair and a good example of how we should be treating the most severely disabled. Please note that it is not the "disabled" who can take up the Motability scheme - it is the most severely disabled (and the name of the component they receive is "higher rate mobility component - it helps to get this right), and the rules as to who receives this benefit are extremely stringent. You must be in receipt of that component to qualify for the Motability scheme. Many severely-disabled people cannot drive a car so it's perfectly right that they should be able to nominate carers as their drivers. Of course, there is the potential for abuse there, but tell me what benefit doesn't have. I reckon that a good many MPs use their allowances to buy whisky, but hey ho. And I note that in another post you attempt to perpetuate the myth that motability cars are "free." They are not. The mobility component is not a car allowance. It is a benefit intended to help meet the costs of getting around for people who have severe difficulty doing so. That allowance may be used to offset the costs of leasing a car. A more expensive car will cost more than the allowance and may incur an advance fee of up to £2000 or more. If you stick to just spending your allowance and no more you will not exactly be getting a Roller. |
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13 Mar 12 - 08:30 AM (#3322185) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Richard Bridge "LEARN!! EDUCATE YOURSELVES!! UNDERSTAND THE HORRENDOUS DAMAGE BEING DONE BY THOSE WHO DON'T UNDERSTAND and DON'T **WANT** TO UNDERSTAND!" Exactly so Lizzie. Don't stare out of the window at the pwetty squiggles but apply yourself. You and the other starers are THOSE WHO DON'T UNDERSTAND and DON'T **WANT** TO UNDERSTAND |
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13 Mar 12 - 08:33 AM (#3322186) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Keith A of Hertford I did not perpetuate any myths. I posted without comment a KIA advert and a Daily Telegraph motoring article. |
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13 Mar 12 - 10:24 AM (#3322247) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish I give up, Richard, you are so blinkered that at times it makes me want to weep... You will never understand the damage your outlook causes..and that saddens me, for there are many others who think as you do, and so the damage goes on...and on...and on. May I suggest you read Barry Finn's words again, in his song, above, for Barry understood, totally. |
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13 Mar 12 - 10:32 AM (#3322251) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST Lizzie, I know you mean well, but this is something I will agree with Richard on. Arise, bright Phoebus awakes! |
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13 Mar 12 - 10:34 AM (#3322252) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish Then you are as ignorant as he. Thank you |
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13 Mar 12 - 10:49 AM (#3322262) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Richard Bridge Having had a hyperactive stepson whose mother taught him to take charge of and responsibility for his condition, and who went on to get a first in philosophy, I think I know exactly what I am talking about. The people who make excuses do the damage and create the ineducable. |
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13 Mar 12 - 10:53 AM (#3322264) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Steve Shaw I did not perpetuate any myths. Yes you did. You posted this: Iain Duncan Smith, the Work and Pensions Secretary, is determined to stop what he regards as abuse of free cars for the disabled... The cars are not free. Severely disabled people have to pay to lease the cars from the mobility component of their DLA. That component is not a car allowance. It is intended to compensate them to some extent for the particular difficulties and expenses they incur when moving around. The recipient may use it in any way they choose. I posted without comment a KIA advert And you didn't notice the blatant error, motability instead of mobility, in the ad?? |
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13 Mar 12 - 10:57 AM (#3322269) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Keith A of Hertford It was cut and paste from The Telegraph. I gave the link. |
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13 Mar 12 - 11:25 AM (#3322285) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST Lizzie, In your earlier post you said "This thread was started purely to upset, which the person who's done that sits behind his screen chuckling in delight." I agree with that at least. |
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13 Mar 12 - 12:09 PM (#3322301) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Teachers open doors! You choose whether to enter, or not. Don T. |
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13 Mar 12 - 03:32 PM (#3322367) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,Bluesman A lady on D.L.A. and other benefits appeared in court today. http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3767600/Benefits-cheat-rumbled-on-slide.html |
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13 Mar 12 - 04:55 PM (#3322408) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: VirginiaTam @ Richard and Lizzie Get to your corners. I myself and my son had ADD and ADHD respectively. It was not until the teen years we could sort out how to cope with sense overload and too much information. Richard it is was damn lucky that your stepson had a mother who knew how and had the time to do what was needed to sort him out. Most children with ADHD and ADD are not so fortunate. Lizzie sadly there are many children who are being misdiagnosed and dosed up accordingly because the parents and schools can't, don't or won't cope any other way with children exhibiting behaviour problems. So let's not tar everyone with the same brush, ok? That is the preserve of certain others who take joy in divide and conquer games. |
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13 Mar 12 - 07:16 PM (#3322452) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Richard Bridge What they need, VT, is fewer fluffy squiggle excuses. What the "children exhibiting behaviour problems" need to do is to do as they are told. Without excuses. And, incidentally, White Man, where is that shizzle you gave us before about your medical problems and disability? Time to fess up. |
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13 Mar 12 - 08:20 PM (#3322490) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,Bluesman This drivel to medicalise every last deviation from the 'norm' is nothing more than an excuse for bad parenting or an excuse for being thick. If you can concentrate, you're somewhere on the autistic spectrum; if you can't, you have ADHD. If you're orderly, then it's OCD, and if you're disorderly, then you're chaotic and bi-polar. With better diagnostic tools, we are finding that more and more people have conditions diagnosed in someone's kitchen over a few cans of lager. No one ever wants to take responsibly for their failings anymore, these excuses aren't anything that would respond to a clinical intervention. |
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14 Mar 12 - 01:29 AM (#3322567) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Stilly River Sage No one ever wants to take responsibly for their failings anymore, these excuses aren't anything that would respond to a clinical intervention. That's rich. You can dish it out. |
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14 Mar 12 - 03:59 AM (#3322588) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Richard Bridge And, incidentally, White Man, where is that shizzle you gave us before about your medical problems and disability? Something to hide? |
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14 Mar 12 - 04:36 AM (#3322598) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,Bluesman As I said earlier, You will always find people wishing to blame something that goes wrong in their life on the system. They just need someone to blame someone. In some cases to attempt to screw a few quid out of it. |
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14 Mar 12 - 06:58 AM (#3322652) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Richard Bridge If you think that is an answer you really are unwell. |
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14 Mar 12 - 07:32 AM (#3322675) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,Bluesman Richard, unlikely we will ever agree on this subject. I note you have a number of posts that vanished. Have a great day. Keith. |
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14 Mar 12 - 08:53 AM (#3322701) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Keith A of Hertford I hope that is your name and you are not being mischievous Bluesman. It could easily lead to confusion and false assumptions. |
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14 Mar 12 - 11:05 AM (#3322764) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: VirginiaTam I wasn't a behaviour problem. I just didn't know what to do or how to do it in my early years. My near perfect grade point average when I finally figured out how to cope in the academic environment, is telling. I wasn't thick. I did much better with written information and instructions than lectures, a teacher reading out loud or vocally transmited directions which is the way of elementary (primary) school. By the time I was a teen I was able to tease out what was important and needed to be processed, analysed and retained for future use. With ADD, everything has the same urgency and importance to it. The fly buzzing in the window, the flickering flourescent light, the teacher talking, Jerry picking his nose, Becca's hiccups, the itchiness of the cardigan on my chin, smell of the banana in someone's lunch box, the worry about how to get past big kid bullies waiting at the end of the playground for little victims after school. Quite often I had to shut down. It was called day dreaming then, but it actually was a useful exercise in that often I would try to work out how I should have dealt with a past incident? Many ADD girls live in the past. The drive to be accepted into a social set is very strong. If your social skills are low you get bullied and/or ignored. So you shut out all the distractions and focus on that latest playground or classroom or lunchroom debacle in the hopes you can avoid a future one. Hyperactivity is quite nightmarish. Girls are good at outletting the hyperactivity with constantly moving their feet. I still raise one foot on ball of foot and bounce my whole leg up and down, when I am at desk and in meetings. This activity has been related to night leg movement and leg cramps. Boys are not so capable of squashing the impetuous drive to move, get out of seat, mess with other people's stuff. I am with Lizzie in that there are different kinds of learners and having been a teacher it is possible to accomodate all types and encourage different types of learning styles in all pupils. Some are hands on, some listen and watch. Some are independent (want to read and figure out for themselves). Some prefer group work. Some need to see a practical application for abstract ideas. Some need to solve problems or improve process. I made my lesson plans to cover all eventualities so everyone had a chance to shine and a chance to stretch less comfortable learning styles. I alos focussed on rewarding appropriate behaviour and getting all students to notice and praise appropriate behaviours in others. The reward system involved all getting a treat at the end of the week for point earned. I turned a very unruly class around using it. I am not advocating the patronising pat on the head. "Poor dear, it's not your fault," tactic. But it is a completely different world. Kids are not the same animal as last generation, just as our own generation is different from our parents. Get used to it and try to figure out ways to work with it instead of struggling against it. |
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14 Mar 12 - 01:51 PM (#3322844) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST Lizzie I think you might like this film I saw the other night about one English teacher's strategies for helping a disturbed and disaffected group of American adolescents/young adults to discover the joy of literature and writing. Many if not most of her students were members of gangs and living very tough lives involving drug and gun related violence, all of whom had been found to be effectively ineducable within the normal school system. She faced stiff opposition from within her own school for adopting these alternative strategies to learning, yet upon success with a particular group, went on to continue to forge a foundation for training other teachers working with similarly challenged students, such alternative learning strategies: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0463998/ http://www.freedomwritersfoundation.org/site/c.kqIXL2PFJtH/b.5183373/k.DD8B/FWF_Home.htm CS |
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14 Mar 12 - 01:57 PM (#3322845) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,CS Meant to preface that. Re: Freedom Writers foundation, albeit they are primarily focused on at-risk students, part of their blurb runs in tandem with some sentiments espoused here: "The Foundation strongly believes it's time to publicly and systematically promote an educational philosophy that honors diversity in the classroom." |
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18 Mar 12 - 09:53 AM (#3324525) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Dave the Gnome I make no excuses for the size of my family, although some will have a go at me for bringing 5 children into the world. The reasons for doing do are no-ones business but mine so I will ignore any comments about that. Why I bring it is is that they have a wide range of 'issues'. Aspergers Syndrome. OCD. Bullied to the stage of being frightened to go out of the hose. Glandular fever leading to ME. I loose track of the potential hurdles to a good education. Anyway, despite all that, they are all happy and caring people. Intelligent to the highest degree. Artistic and Musical. OK - I know they are my kids so I will sing their praises. What I am most proud of them all for though is how they overcame everything thrown at them. Yes, OK, have a laugh, including having me for a Dad... I have, by proxy brought two BAs, one BSC and one BEng leading onto a Masters, into the world. None of them were ever excluded from school or subject to psycho-analysis, either by professionals or idiotic amateurs. They have all done well and I expect they will do even better in the future. But them again had they have done otherwise I am pretty sure I would have shown them just as much love and affection and not have instantly jumped into the book of excuses shown above... DtG |
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27 Mar 12 - 05:26 AM (#3329533) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,Bluesman More than two thirds of people receiving Incapacity Benefit in Northern Ireland are capable of doing at least some work, new government figures have indicated. Around 76,000 recipients are currently undergoing assessment to gauge their ability to return to work. Of the 9,328 people assessed so far, 2,202 were found to be capable of work and 4,262 were deemed to have some capability of work.Around 30% - 2,864 - were found to be not capable of any work, primarily due to ill health or learning difficulties. Social Development Minister Nelson McCausland said the reassessment of Incapacity Benefit recipients was making a real difference to the lives of people who would otherwise have been left trapped in the benefits system. It is the British taxpayer who has to foot the bill for those who opt out of working for a living. |
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27 Mar 12 - 05:45 AM (#3329539) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: theleveller "government figures have indicated" Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah! And you believe them? Just look at the number of successful appeals and how much they are costing. |
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27 Mar 12 - 07:20 AM (#3329563) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Steve Shaw Social Development Minister Nelson McCausland said the reassessment of Incapacity Benefit recipients was making a real difference to the lives of people who would otherwise have been left trapped in the benefits system. It is the British taxpayer who has to foot the bill for those who opt out of working for a living. It's making a real difference to the lives of many people who are seriously mentally or physically disabled by either removing their benefit or making them feeling extremely insecure at a time of soaring unemployment. And the British "taxpayer" funds everything from obscenely-high salaries and bonuses in private companies to the huge dividends that go into the coffers of shareholders in multi-billion-quid-profit companies. If we didn't spend our money they wouldn't exist. And I care not a jot whether the money I shell out is tax or whether it comes straight out of my pocket. It's still money. It's about time we ditched this bogus notion that it's only the public sector or benefits claimants who are beholden to the bloody "taxpayer." |
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27 Mar 12 - 09:07 AM (#3329623) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: theleveller Still sounds like hypocrisy to me. There are people who are dying who have been told that they're fit for work. This is not some sort of charity, this is people's RIGHT - just as you would claim to have a right to your pension. WTF is your problem with that? |
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27 Mar 12 - 09:34 AM (#3329637) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: theleveller OK, here's an example of the unfairness of this system which I know about because it involves a member of my family. After working full time for almost 40 years he had a nervous breakdown because of the pressures put on him at work and suffered from severe depression that left him unable to hold down a job (he tried on two occasions) and also broke up his marriage. Now, after being assessed, he's been told that he has to find a job as his disability allowance is being discontinued. He's 60 years old and hasn't worked for 4 years, so who the fuck is going to employ him in this day and age? But, of course, we're all in this together, so he should be glad to play his part. If I had £250,000 to spare I'd have dinner with Bloody Cameron and insist that there was custard pie on the menu. |
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27 Mar 12 - 09:42 AM (#3329642) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Bonzo3legs Custard pie? - I would demand treacle tart of the standard my mother use to make, with custard that a spoon will stand up in!! |
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27 Mar 12 - 11:03 AM (#3329677) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Bonzo3legs Supporting the poor ,the sick, the needy is not a "problem". It's civilisation. Seems to me that they are very well supported!! |
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27 Mar 12 - 11:09 AM (#3329680) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,Bluesman It can and is abused Bonzo. Sadly the people who need it are the ones that suffer. Go to any public house or betting shop this afternoon to see proof of this. |
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27 Mar 12 - 01:54 PM (#3329723) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Bonzo3legs I agree Bluesman and no doubt the loonie left will have their answer! |
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27 Mar 12 - 02:27 PM (#3329733) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Richard Bridge Such a huge amount of ignorance there. |
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27 Mar 12 - 03:35 PM (#3329770) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: VirginiaTam I may have already shared this. I am member of a Disabled Employees Network, in which there are obviously disabled members (wheel chairs, interpreters, guide dog assisted, etc). By and large they are in agreement that the benefits system needs an overhaul. Some of them have been in presence of those who appear to be cheating the system. Claiming higher rate mobility after climbing 3 flights of steps and carrying a cane on the arm. That sort of thing. But I don't know if they understand hidden disabilities. For example me (still waiting for DLA application sent in December or January to go through whatever hoops). I am 6 years into rheumatoid arthritis in feet, ankles, hips, fingers, hands, wrists, shoulders and neck. Recently diagnosed vitamin D deficiency and attending fybromyalgia pain all over especially in the long bones. I have good moments where I am seemingly AOK. I have horrible weeks/months when my husband has to help me with everything from brushing my hair to putting on my socks and shoes. According to the PIP assessment, I would qualify for lower rate DLA and no mobility, yet most days I cannot walk more than 40 meters. Enter the ATOS assessor who asks me weird side blinder questions like, "What is your favorite pass time?" I say "live music sessions." Assessor says "do you perform?" I say "I can play some instruments badly and I can sing." This can (and probably will) be construed by the assessor as ability to sit for long periods, ability to concentrate and remember learned material, ability to hold and use a pen. You get my meaning. I am fortunate in so many ways to have a job. Not the least that it keep my mind off the pain better than any medicine does. But I do need and am entitled to DLA to help me continue to work and to allow me to access something approaching a normal life. I won't moan too much if I don't get it. There are far too many people who need it more than I do. What steams me is even the legitimately ill and disabled are being denied. Some of them are committing suicide in despair. And that is a thing that should not happen in a civilised country. This inhuman glee at another's misfortune does not look well on anyone. Sadly the current government and the media are promoting and inflaming a public hatred of the vulnerable. Whatever next? Ancient practice of exposing the sick and disabled on a rubbish heap? |
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27 Mar 12 - 03:46 PM (#3329776) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Steve Shaw I don't claim state benefits, I don't need them. Well you wouldn't would you, what with your income from your unearned - sorry, inherited - wealth. Go to any public house or betting shop this afternoon to see proof of this. Oh, really? Did you ask all the denizens therein what money thy were using? And what were you doing there? |
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27 Mar 12 - 03:47 PM (#3329777) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Steve Shaw they |
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27 Mar 12 - 03:49 PM (#3329778) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Bonzo3legs "What steams me is even the legitimately ill and disabled are being denied" That is exactly what my wife is finding, and she could run a medical school on her medical conditions. |
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27 Mar 12 - 05:04 PM (#3329805) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: VirginiaTam I don't begrudge not getting DLA when I am entitled to it because I have the means to support myself without it. And even with it, I could NOT afford one first class holiday. So when I say the legitimately ill and disabled, I mean those also without means to support themselves. |
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27 Mar 12 - 05:24 PM (#3329811) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,Bluesman Abuse of the benefits system IS widespread, why else would the government be introducing reforms ? |
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27 Mar 12 - 05:31 PM (#3329815) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: VirginiaTam I don't think it is widespread. I think we have an unfortunate combination of few cases highly profiled by a headline hungry media and a government that does not favour what it perceives as weak and a drain on resources. |
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27 Mar 12 - 07:44 PM (#3329867) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Max What is wrong with you people? Your rhetoric has clearly devolved into nothing more than a personal dislike of each other and turned your former thoughtful ideological beliefs into petty quibbling and one-upmanship. It is so clearly personal. In my fictionalization of this that I shall implant into my memory in place of this sadsackery, one person will play the part of them all. A tale of multiple personalities who use the non-linear nature of internet forums to actually converse with each other, unprecedented until this age. An infinite loop of each identity contradicting each statement, exhausting the certainty muscles of all the others ultimately rendering every argument, contention, proposition, or conclusion completely absurd, each participant opposite AND equal, and every innocent bystander a little demoralized. Hey look, lets pretend that tomorrow has no guarantee to come. Weirder things have happened, right? Lets live today like that were the case. Cuz you never know really, right? So I want my today to matter. I want to smile a lot. I want to notice all them things I'm usually too preoccupied to give attention to, like butterflies and morning dew, the sound of a swishing basketball, a walk in the rain with my children... Certainly wouldn't feel like I needed to make any points before the end. But hey, who am I to judge, I'm a big dope you know. Maybe I just learned the hardest ways: Two irrational ex-wives, legitimate institutional insanity, the single most insidious torture device in the history of the Universe... can prevent a man from ever opening his mouth again. I learned that being right... doing right... may not be what it seems. |
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27 Mar 12 - 08:13 PM (#3329877) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Steve Shaw We don't all dislike each other though. We each dislike about two or three other people, that's all. I think I might like everyone else. |
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28 Mar 12 - 03:52 AM (#3330000) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: SPB-Cooperator "Of the 9,328 people assessed so far, 2,202 were found to be capable of work and 4,262 were deemed to have some capability of work" So who are the employers queuing up to offer 6,464 jobs that make allowances for individual's incapacities/disabilities? |
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28 Mar 12 - 05:14 AM (#3330017) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Richard Bridge Oh, the allowances that are required by the Equality Act? Very good point. Much as peace in our time might be a lovely dream I don't foresee it. And I don't imagine a tide of "sturdy beggars". |
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28 Mar 12 - 08:38 AM (#3330068) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: theleveller "We don't all dislike each other though" I do! I hate the bloody lot of you - every last one. In fact, may the curse of Mary Malone and her nine blind, illegitimate children chase you so far over the Hills of Damnation that the good Lord himself won't be able to find you with a telescope. Apart from that, have a nice day! ;) |
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29 Mar 12 - 05:00 AM (#3330511) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Bonzo3legs And you have a nice day too - even if we do have to queue up for petrol, which I refuse to do and will use public transport (very inconvenient) once my petrol tank shows 1/4 full. |
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29 Mar 12 - 06:04 AM (#3330521) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: theleveller I tried to fill up last night and my usual petrol station had no unleaded or diesel. I had to drive several miles to find some - and pay 5p a litre more. Oh Mr Maude, you are such a prat! |
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29 Mar 12 - 09:44 AM (#3330614) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Bonzo3legs Just paid 141.9 per litre in Coulsdon, Surrey. |
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29 Mar 12 - 11:44 AM (#3330650) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Steve Shaw How can I possibly panic-buy petrol when all the bloody jerry cans have been panic-bought? |
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29 Mar 12 - 11:58 AM (#3330658) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish "Abuse of the benefits system IS widespread, why else would the government be introducing reforms ?" This government is facist. In the short time it has been in power, it has flooded the media with stories of 'scroungers'. Their main aim has been to turn person against person, and...they have succeeded. Of course, in doing this, they've completely taken the spotlight away from themselves and their own deep dishonesty in how they were all claiming massive amounts of money from the taxpayer, ILLEGALLY, thus being the biggest Scroungers ever going. Most of the population seems unable to see what they are doing. Once, I lived in a country that cared for people when they hit rock bottom. It offered them a hand of hope. Yes, this has been abused by some, but more often than not these people are the very ones who have been abused by the way society has become.. The young teenage Mums, who know they only hope they'll ever of getting a flat/house of their own is to become pregnant. Most loathe their children and the children grow up unloved, unwanted and cost society a fortune for one reason or another. Those who learn differently, forced into a system which demands that all are the same. Branded FAILURE very early on in life, turning to drink and drugs as soon as they can to block out the anger, the torturous confusion and lack of hope. The elderly, a lifetime of work behind many of them, now made to feel they MUST work into the mid 60's and beyond, despite the terrible aches and pains that come with older age sometimes.. And all the time the government pours on The Waters of Guilt, in the most relentless project I've ever seen... Torquay is filled with many who have no hope of EVER breaking out of The System. Trapped into no jobs, or low-income jobs which they are forced to take....... Those who literally would starve to death if their benefit was taken from them now are made to feel like lepers, filthy disgusting lepers... I am sick of it all! I am FAR MORE SICK of the SICK minds who are creating this NEW Society were scorn and hatred have replaced Love and Compassion... "Why should ***I*** pay for YOU!?!?!?!" now rings out across my Land.. The answer has always been "Because if YOU need help each of us is there in some way to help YOU when you are down and hope-less" Now beefy security guards line our job centres where worn out staff try to cope with people in tears, who know they CANNOT live on £67.50 a week.. In decades the Job Seekers Allowance has risen by pennies, but the cost of living has risen by hundreds/thousands of pounds... In this town many faces are sunken, through drugs, drink, lack of food, lack of hope. Young people with no teeth, black teeth, poor hair which speaks of bad nutrition, lack of self-worth, lack of self-belief, trapped inside a system that has no interest in helping them to live a full and happy life...... And meanwhile, out in the harbour the sun shines down on Million Pound Yachts of the Rich And Wealthy Few who give Fuck All for those within their town, walking round in their shell suits and second hand clothing...... I am sick of people who give Fuck All. I am sick of the I'm Alright Jacks! They are sick and selfish people, so up their own arses that they may never see the real meaning of life, which is that ALL are Equal, ALL are Related, ALL should be Loved and Cared For... They exist merely to sneer, to look down upon and to write on messageboards about the low life who are cheating the system....... Well, they voted these fascist bastards into power, so if now they too are finding that even their families are being denied Disability Allowance, by private companies who are PAID for EVERY SINGLE PERSON THEY REMOVE FROM THE LIST, I have no sympathy whatsoever...for they have nest eggs to fall back on, private pensions etc, so although it is somewhat inconvenient for them, for others it is Life, or Death...and for many it will soon become Death. My Dad went to war AGAINST people like this. He went to war for a BETTER world. I am glad he's passed on, for to see his country reduced to this Incompassionate State would literally break his gentle heart.. |
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29 Mar 12 - 12:02 PM (#3330660) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish Aren't you guys LUCKY to be able to BUY petrol in the first place. Aren't you LUCKY to be able to afford to run a car. Many cannot afford to buy food by the end of the month.... Remember them.. |
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02 May 12 - 08:27 AM (#3346063) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: VirginiaTam Today I received my report from ATOS examination done 23 April for my DLA application. I am officially a failed free loader. So all you tax paying benefits doubting folk can rest easy. I won't be drawing any mobility component which is what I most needed. Needed because I cannot walk more than 40 metres on bad days. Needed because more than 90% of days from October 2011 until today have been bad days. Needed because my doctors have told me I am not going to get better now. Probably only worse. And if the last 6 days are any indication they are correct. So I will continue to pay up to £500.00 out of pocket for taxi fares to and from medical appointments. Never mind just going out on my own. At least I am not free loader. And the taxes your government takes from me (I have worked full time since I arrived in this country) and you can do some good. Like padding the deserving rich. |
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02 May 12 - 08:41 AM (#3346074) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Keith A of Hertford I am so sorry for your situation Tam. It is very unfair. You do deserve help. keith. |
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02 May 12 - 09:23 AM (#3346081) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: Lizzie Cornish 1 I'm really sorry, too, Tam. You don't deserve this to happen to you. This bloody government! What they are doing incenses me beyond belief... Is there any form of local free transport, run by volunteers? Your Citizens Advice Bureau may be able to help....or the medical practice you go to... |
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02 May 12 - 10:54 AM (#3346106) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,CS "more than 90% of days from October 2011 until today have been bad days." ATOS are only interested in the remaining 10% of "good days". Unfortunately it's that very 10% which renders you ineligible. Black or white: can walk or can't walk. There are no shades of grey where illness is concerned for these tests. That's the way they are composed. Bit like a multiple choice ..with only two answers! Fortunately there is an appeal process, where a real human being assesses the evidence - I believe that around 40% of cases taken to appeal, win. Though they are slow, if the case is won, monies will be backdated. |
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02 May 12 - 11:22 AM (#3346116) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: VirginiaTam The NHS has money to pay part of transport costs to diagnostic appointments only (on NHS approved premises) if referred by your GP. This is meted out per PCT and then per GP surgery based some formula to do with demographics and I believe means tested. As I have a full time job I don't think available to me. My GP is just shy of 500 metres from our flat. Should take only 6 minutes to walk. It takes me 20+ minutes to and another 20+ home after which I am usually in tears and dreading the climb of one flight of stairs to the flat. Once it took me 40 minutes in cold wind and rain. I have to plan not to go anywhere the next day, so I can recover. Take lots of pain killers and not move too much. What taxi company would bother to transport me such a short distance? Looking at more things on this ATOS report. I have to go down and up the stairs sideways, one step at a time holding onto rail with both hands because my hips are so bad I am afraid I will fall. My ATOS report says I am not likely to fall. |
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02 May 12 - 12:02 PM (#3346129) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,CS Unfortunately the fact you live in a flat and consequently traverse two flights of stairs daily (however achieved) is I would think, likely to mitigate against any successful claim for DLA. Based on the GP's assessment of the likelihood of worsening of condition, and that lack of space means you're unable to store a scooter which might make short journeys alone viable, it would seem that living in flat is going to become increasingly unsustainable. Sounds like it's time to seriously weigh up the pros and cons of relocating to somewhere else until retirement. Possibly moving farther out of Chelmsford, but remaining on the main line, where house prices will be that bit lower? http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/passenger_services/disabled_passengers/wheelchairs_scooters.html |
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02 May 12 - 12:54 PM (#3346145) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: VirginiaTam One flight of steps to first floor flat. We can't afford anything within commuting distance especially since commuting adds to the cost. We only were able to get this flat because it needed so much work (still does). Only about 42 years left on ground lease which will cost us up to 15,000 to buy up to 99 years. Flat won't sell at all unless we finish the work needed and buy up those years on the lease. The examiner probably got me on my truthful answer to grocery shopping. When I do attend with TSO, I lean on the trolley for support, because I don't know how to drive the mobility scooters provided. That is more than 100 metres. Shopping that should take a half hour takes an hour+ when I go along. But I did say the TSO goes without me lately because I just can't. |
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02 May 12 - 01:07 PM (#3346155) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: VirginiaTam just occurred to me last post really bad thread drift... sorry |
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02 May 12 - 01:13 PM (#3346159) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,CS Commuting adds to cost: yes I understand there would be some increase in fares (a return train journey from HatPev to Chelmsford = £5) but how does that work compare to a taxi's back and forth every day? If you used a mobility scooter, you can -I'm pretty certain- take one on Greater Anglia (service provider for the line) trains, and then use to travel to work from train. As for salability of your place, well, it is a difficult climate I know. Like I said though, the ATOS tests simply test for what you actually DO - even if you only do it sometimes, and even if it hurts when you sometimes do it. It really is that black and white. Increasingly few people are eligible for DLA now. Vast majority of claims are rejected. Best thing to do is to take it to appeal, and get an advocate to help you do so - go to CAB for advice and assistance on that one. But don't hold your breath :-/ |
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02 May 12 - 01:21 PM (#3346160) Subject: RE: BS: Benefits (uk) & The Age of Suspicion From: GUEST,CS Yep - sorry for wandering off topic! |