|
16 Sep 99 - 12:08 PM (#114705) Subject: Think About This.... From: Bensson Brownies with a Difference
Many parents are hard pressed today to explain to their youth why some music, movies, books, and magazines are not acceptable material for them to bring into the home or to listen to or see.
One parent came up with an original idea that is hard to refute. The father listened to all the reasons his children gave for wanting to see a particular PG-13 movie. It had their favorite actors. Everyone else was seeing it. Even church members said it was great. It was only rated PG-13 because of the suggestion of sex--they never really showed it. The language was pretty good--the Lord's name was only used in vain three times in the whole movie.
The teens did admit there was a scene where a building and a bunch of people were blown up, but the violence was just the normal stuff. It wasn't too bad. And, even if there were a few minor things, the special effects were fabulous and the plot was action packed.
However, even with all the justifications the teens made for the 13' rating, the father still wouldn't give in. He didn't even give his children a satisfactory explanation for saying, "No." He just said, "No!"
A little later on that evening the father asked his teens if they would like some brownies he had baked. He explained that he'd taken the family's favorite recipe and added a little something new. The children asked what it was.
The father calmly replied that he had added dog poop. However, he quickly assured them, it was only a little bit. All other ingredients were gourmet quality and he had taken great care to bake the brownies at the precise temperature for the exact time. He was sure the brownies would be superb.
Even with their father's promise that the brownies were of almost perfect quality, the teens would not take any. The father acted surprised. After all, it was only one small part that was causing them to be so stubborn. He was certain they would hardly notice it. Still the teens held firm and would not try the brownies.
The father then told his children how the movie they wanted to see was just like the brownies. We can be deceived into believing that just a little bit of evil won't matter. But, the truth is - even a little bit of poop makes the difference between a great treat and something disgusting and totally unacceptable.
The father went on to explain that even though the movie industry would have us believe that most of today's movies are acceptable fare for adults and youth, they are not.
Now, when this father's children want to see something that is of questionable material, the father merely asks them if they would like some of his special dog poop brownies. That closes the subject.
|
|
16 Sep 99 - 12:38 PM (#114714) Subject: RE: Think About This.... From: Bill D well, I see the 'point',,,but it is simply fallacious reasoning in this case...(equivocation, assuming the premise, and a couple of other fallacies, if I can think of the technical terms)..dog-poop as 'bad content' is NOT an equivalent term to "moral stuff" as 'bad content'...and it requires you to ASSUME that "moral stuff" is automatically 'bad' and cumulative...a debate which rages every day... that being said...I DO agree that we are affected by what we see & hear, and that lots of exposure to unsavory themes can de-sensitize kids to them and allow acceptance of things we don't like...it is just that we can MEASURE and calibrate some things and not others.... |
|
16 Sep 99 - 10:48 PM (#114832) Subject: RE: Think About This.... From: DonMeixner Well Bensson, I can't let this slide without a comment...... Don |
|
17 Sep 99 - 12:06 AM (#114847) Subject: RE: Think About This.... From: catspaw49 Well stroked Bill...logic classes did you a lot of good didn't they?**BG** And Don...Buddy...you're sinkin' down to catspaw depth there, like that one really stunk, ya' know? Spaw |
|
17 Sep 99 - 12:18 AM (#114851) Subject: RE: Think About This.... From: catspaw49 ...I also should have added that I do agree that those kids shouldn't eat those brownies.........I ate a lot of brownies with shit in them in my younger days and it's obviously had a deleterious effect on my uh, uh,......my uh what....uh yeah, like uh my..........what was I talking about? Spaw |
|
17 Sep 99 - 01:57 AM (#114853) Subject: RE: Think About This.... From: MudGuard I wonder whether this father lets his children see the TV news. All those killings (wasn't there another amok man yesterday), all those bombs... Or whether he controls what his children see on TV in general. There are so many TV series with lots of violence and sex in them... I guess that PG13 means you have to be 13 to see the film? What does the PG stand for? |
|
17 Sep 99 - 02:42 AM (#114860) Subject: RE: Think About This.... From: catspaw49 Pussy Galore.....the character in "Goldfinger" who epitomized the "bad girl with a heart of gold" to an entire generation of American males. Honor Blackman did the part in the this third Bond feature, "Goldfinger," and displayed a complete range of acting talent from A to B. She was narrowly edged out for "Best" in a supporting role in the movie by an Aston-Martin. Spaw |
|
17 Sep 99 - 03:38 AM (#114866) Subject: RE: Think About This.... From: Steve Parkes Ah, but you should have seen her in 'The Avengers' on tv ... |
|
17 Sep 99 - 03:56 AM (#114868) Subject: RE: Think About This.... From: Joe Offer Ah, Bensson, I know you mean well, but we're a hard lot around here. You have very little chance of reforming us - but we're actually quite nice people, nonetheless. Steve, how can you mention anybody but Diana Rigg when you speak of the Avengers? -Joe Offer, still lusting after Mrs. Peel (even though I went to Bible study tonight)- |
|
17 Sep 99 - 05:43 AM (#114874) Subject: RE: Think About This.... From: Banjer Dog Poop Brownies.....? Hell, some of the things I've sampled lately make that sound not so bad.....Let's bake up a bunch of them there brownies and head for the movies...the more dog poop in the brownies the the higher the movie rating.....ie:one ounce of poop = G rating, two ounces = PG, until we get to the two cup level which could = XXX! |
|
17 Sep 99 - 08:20 AM (#114888) Subject: RE: Think About This.... From: bob schwarer Dog Poop Brownies and Moose Turd Pie for dessert. Bob S. |
|
17 Sep 99 - 09:32 AM (#114897) Subject: RE: Think About This.... From: Frank Howe okay folks - hold on a moment. The analogy is poorly constructed for several reasons, but what about the larger issue / question. Is it a good idea to say no content one finds inappropriate for developing children even if it is embedded in otherwise appropriate and entertaining material ...and if so how do YOU go about explaining that to YOUR children without the old "...because I said so" and without putting poop in their brownies? There are times when we need to say no ...and we need to say why. |
|
17 Sep 99 - 10:09 AM (#114900) Subject: RE: Think About This.... From: Peter T. It is not clear to me that any ratings system, and certainly most people, are really up to determining those very slight variations that shift something into what is truly demoralizing and what isn't. The big things are easy, but one person's slight dog poop is not another's. For instance, the very first mainstream movie I ever saw that treated the serious killing of innocent bystanders as a joke without any whisper of moral sanction was "Diva", which most people only remember as a funny opera film. This has now become standard punchline material, but I can remember being quite shocked by the amorality of that moment in the film, and being quite clear that a line had been crossed. yours, Peter T. |
|
17 Sep 99 - 10:56 AM (#114915) Subject: RE: Think About This.... From: Jeri I agree the dog poop analogy isn't a good one. Personally, I think it's more important to (depending on a kid's age and ability to understand) watch the movies and then talk about the bad things as well as the good. You can only get away with the see-no, hear-no, speak-no-evil thing for so long. When the kids get old enough, they'll plunge right in, and the more forbidden the fruit, the more of a lure it will be. Teach kids to recognize gratuitous sex and violence. Teach them to see and fight evil, not ignore it. People who learn to look the other way become victims, and they allow predators to continue unchecked. Jeri (not a parent, but of course I have an opinion on everything.) |
|
17 Sep 99 - 11:08 AM (#114921) Subject: RE: Think About This.... From: lloyd61 Thanks Bensson. Hold the line, you are right. I have raised three kids and have tried all the options. I wish I would have held the line. lloyd61 |
|
17 Sep 99 - 11:18 AM (#114925) Subject: RE: Think About This.... From: catspaw49 Yeah, you do, but that one ain't bad. Age appropriate talks do more to enlighten than any number of "negative" outside influences do to harm. Most of us around the 'Cat would like to see a "kinder, gentler America" (or world)...but THIS is the society we have COLLECTIVELY enjoined. I will never forget that when Michael was 5, he explained, in detail, to the Old Man exactly what the difference was between "real stuff" and the "pretend stuff" he was watching on TV. He explained to his dullard father that he knew the difference and what was he "talking about it so much for anyway?" Probably grow up to be a mass murderer........ Spaw |
|
17 Sep 99 - 11:22 AM (#114927) Subject: RE: Think About This.... From: Jack (who is called Jack) |
|
17 Sep 99 - 11:25 AM (#114931) Subject: RE: Think About This.... From: Jack (who is called Jack) I think this is a dangerous proverb. Its much more likely to be used in debates over taste than right vs. wrong. To wit, what you like is dog crap so even a little bit ruins everything.
|
|
17 Sep 99 - 01:01 PM (#114964) Subject: RE: Think About This.... From: Mike Billo Sounds like the old Republican right party line that the easily available weapons mass produced by their bosses, the gun lobby, are not responsible for these mass murders. It's the dad-blamed liberal media. The only thing I agree with here is that somebody is definitely trying to feed a load of crap to others.
|
|
17 Sep 99 - 01:30 PM (#114973) Subject: RE: Think About This.... From: katlaughing Reminds me of the fundamentalist I heard on NPR today explaing how much love went into a tract some baptists are passing out during the most reflective, sacred time of year for Jews, Rosh Hoshana, trying to turn them onto Jesus. It mentioned the Jews, as "simple people". He spewed some rot about how, in our society, we've become so bound up in diversity that we've lost track of what the "Truth" is. Maybe his truth, not mine! What he and the original poster of this message don't recognise or refuse to, is that it is all subjective depending on where one is on the consciousness level, plus upbringing, background, beliefs, etc. Some people think the "Truth" means they are the only ones who are right and that everyone else is the enemy or lost and so must either be disarmed, annihilated, or turned. It is the preaching of such hatred and intolerance which can spawn horrible things such as this week's killing spree. The leaders of all movements, religious and otherwise, need to remember that they may reap what they preach. Jeri & 'Spaw, I agree wholeheartedly. We always watched tv or movies with our kids and always discussed everything with them, pros and cons, real not real, etc. They've all grown to be self-supporting, caring members of society who I am quite proud of.
Sorry, Lloyd, I think all we can do is the best we know, at the time, then let go. It's damn hard, I am still struggling with the letting go, esp. when I hear things like the song on Folk Legacy's For All The Good People-A Golden Ring Reunion, "Golden Years", written for a parents' 50th anniversary, with the lines that say, Those words really hit home, since my kids live so far away, except for the youngest, who at 22 is still SO much smarter than ole Mom & Dad, that we just don't see her that often. I never expected to go for years without actually seeing my son or oldest daughter, but that's what has happened. When I heard that song, it made me realise...it may always be that way, because we probably will never live in the same area, again. Pissed me off, made me sad, then made me glad that they are strong and confident adults who just need to make more money & get more vacation time! katlaughing |
|
17 Sep 99 - 01:30 PM (#114974) Subject: RE: Think About This.... From: Bert Hmmm, pity Michael didn't teach his Old Man the difference between real and pretend. Bert (told ya I'd getcha) |
|
17 Sep 99 - 02:05 PM (#114993) Subject: RE: Think About This.... From: Joe Offer Well, the analogy in the first message begs the question, so the poster flunks logic. Sorry, Bensson. The point, however, has some merit. We do need to try to give our kids guidance, but it may be a losing battle. My ex and I were determined to give a proper upbringing to my firstborn, who is now 26 years old and still trying to make a name for himself as a punk rocker. We sent him to religious schools. We screened the television he watched (My ex didn't even want to him to watch "Cheers" at the age of 13, which I thought was a bit too rigid). We didn't even allow him to have toy guns when he was a preschooler (so he made his own). My ex tasked me with reviewing every cassette he bought before he was allowed to listen - there was one album by Loverboy that got returned, but I had to speak to the manager before I got my son's money back. I wouldn't say we were completely rigid on what our kids were exposed to, but we were pretty strict. Heck, we thought we did a pretty good job. Still, my oldest son seemed to develop one overpowering value - the desire for freedom. He's a good-natured person and very generous, but I think you'd probably be taken aback by him, Bensson. On the first record he recorded, this child of mine sang a song called "Letter Bomb." another was a cute little reggae piece called "The Fuck of Love." Go ahead and try to shelter your kids, Bensson. You may find the results disappointing. It ain't all that easy. -Joe Offer- |
|
17 Sep 99 - 02:11 PM (#114998) Subject: RE: Think About This.... From: annamill Wow! This is a tough one for me. I love this place so much, I hope I don't get thrown out. I never told my children what to watch or not watch. I just told them how I felt about a situation (music, book, or movie, etc). When my beautiful son, who is now 23 (almost) was listening to "The Dirty Old Bastard" who happens to be a rap singer, I would ask him to please turn it down because the lyrics highly offended me and I'd rather not hear them, if he didn't mind. He would turn them down and when there was something he wanted me to hear, because he thought it was great, he always made sure it didn't contain any raw language. James is well read, very bright, and as for morals..well, sometimes I accuse him of being a bit judgemental of others. He has honor. This to me is the most valuable moral value of all. All the others fall behind that. Now on the other hand, my beautiful daughter, has become what she calls a born-again Christian, goes to church, raises her children in the church of her God, and tries very hard to live her life up to the Christian standards. I'm every bit as proud of her as my son. She has honor too. I'm glad as hell I let them decide what their moral values were. I just let them know and see what mine were. Seems to have worked. Love, Snowball Summer |
|
17 Sep 99 - 02:25 PM (#115006) Subject: RE: Think About This.... From: JedMarum I don't think I ever had a problem telling my kids what movies they could and couldn't see. They seemed to exibit good taste in what they selected, more often then not. I believed (and still do) firmly that the morality and judgement 'tools' they developed in my house were much more important issues, then whether or not a particular rating or subject matter was appropriate ... this is not to say I would have been OK with them making a habit of patronizing some of the pure trash that's available. When it came to them watching videos or listening to music I found objectionable, I had a simple answer; "It's my house, I don't want to listen to that stuff," and was happy to discuss the particluars if they cared to pursue it. They listened to or watched such material at times when I didn't have to, and frankly never indulged much in the trash ... they were free to (in their own space) but never had an interest. |
|
17 Sep 99 - 03:22 PM (#115027) Subject: RE: Think About This.... From: SeanM Annap, that was beautiful... I don't have children myself, but was one once and I feel that gives me some degree of expertise on this subject. I personally am against the attempt to shelter children. There are some things that are probably not good for kids to see/hear/experience (pornography, drugs, Barry Manilow), but I've seen many parents who attempt to not only deny their children access to things like this, but to deny that these things exist. Children are resourceful. Remember when you were young? Remember all those things that you were told you shouldn't or couldn't do but tried anyway? I'll always love and respect my mother for many things, but among them was the fact that she never shied away from explaining things that other parents felt were "innappropriate", and made sure that I always knew that I could ask her about anything without there being any negative repercussions (now DOING some of these things...) As a result, I'd like to think that I had a decent childhood without TOO many problems. Drugs? Knew what they were. Didn't interest me too heavily, as I knew that they made you feel good - but also precisely what they did to you in addition. Drinking? Same thing. Sex? Nothing calms down the libido like a frank discussion on the precise biological implications. On the other hand, I was constantly besieged by my more sheltered friends doing all of the above. Their general idea was "Mom don't want me to do this, so it must be fun." Rebellion is something that kids will ALWAYS do. It's part of being one. Kids will always try (whether consciously or not) to rebel against the things their parents believe, and do the things that they are not supposed to do. I'd prefer my children (when I have them) to go out for their rebellion knowing the consequences. It might just get them to think. Information can be dangerous, but don't try and keep it from the kids. One responsibility of parenting is being around to explain the stickier parts of life to your children. Dang! How did I get up on this soapbox? Anyone got a ladder to get me down? M |
|
17 Sep 99 - 04:04 PM (#115047) Subject: RE: Think About This.... From: K~~ I had my first child 16 months ago. He is bright, and loving, and (in my opinion) perfect. I have no intention of harnessing him. A parent's job is to GUIDE, not force. You can't put blinders on your kid, but you can talk to him, explain everything, leave yourself open to questions. I may be an amateur at this mother thing, but parenthood is the last bastion of the utter amateur. You just do the best you can (with a lot of love). |
|
17 Sep 99 - 04:18 PM (#115054) Subject: RE: Think About This.... From: Jack (Who is called Jack) When my wife and I had our first, I spent the gestation with a fantasy that now I would be the potter to my offspring's clay. Molding, creating. But kids aren't clay. They are little learning machines with their own motors and directions. My image now is the old-time children's game of hoop bowling. The one where you use a stick to keep a rolling wooden hoop going. Having a kid is like dropping one of those hoops on a steep hill. It takes off, you start running after it, and try to keep up. You've got some control, but if you push the hoop too hard, or try to change its direction too fast it just falls down.
|
|
17 Sep 99 - 04:28 PM (#115059) Subject: RE: Think About This.... From: Bert Good analogy Jack, I 'specially like the bit about 'you use a stick' ;-) |
|
17 Sep 99 - 04:39 PM (#115064) Subject: RE: Think About This.... From: MAG (inactive) As one whose parents look back and figure they must have been too soft on us, or something, I can say thank all the stars and little fishes they weren't any harder than they were. And at 51, I STILL know more than my parents, unfortunately. MAG |
|
18 Sep 99 - 01:29 PM (#115312) Subject: RE: Think About This.... From: Penny S. Does anyone think that story is true? Can you imagine the social workers? Your Dad did what? He tried to persuade you to eat canine faeces? Why is it that there is a particular style to these moral tales that doesn't quite work? When I was young my mother only banned one sort of book. every year, one of our distant aunts sent us a book for Christmas, and every year, my mother would tut at it, and hide it away. Eventually, I did what anyone would expect, and searched and found that year's offering. It was a book of Evangelical religious stories with morals. They were written in the precursor to the style above, and I knew just what credence to give them. I do not know what the moral of that is with regard to censorship, unless it is that if you have brought up your children to be thoughtful about what they read and see, you don't need to worry if they break through and read something you find objectionable. If they know that your judgements in the past have been based on reason, then they will trust your judgements in the future. Unfortunately, my little tale doesn't include the effects of peer group pressure, because it didn't apply. Penny |
|
18 Sep 99 - 05:01 PM (#115345) Subject: RE: Think About This.... From: DonMeixner One night I was working on a song and my wife was quilting. The twins were watching a movie in the other room. I heard the tone of the film change tho' I wasn't watching it. After a pause Greg said to Geoff " I don't think this is appropriate for us." Geoff agreed and they changed the channel. Not because we badgered them or threatened with biblical consequence but because we raised them in constancy of standard, fair play, good art, and most of all, obvious courtesy of anothers feelings. We also always spoke directly to them with out shrouding the obvious in metaphor or simile. We also always had 100% Double Chocolate Swiss fudge, no additives. Don |
|
18 Sep 99 - 08:11 PM (#115396) Subject: RE: Think About This.... From: poet I am a heavy smoker and my kids spoke to me about smoking themselves and I said "If you want to be like me then smoke" Cant run, Cant breathe, cough a bit, cant get the girls cos I smell like an ash tray. my kids don'nt smoke I wonder why. Tell them like it is and then let them work it out, they'll do fine. Graham Hyett. |
|
18 Sep 99 - 08:19 PM (#115397) Subject: RE: Think About This.... From: catspaw49 Right on the head there Poe...right on the head! Spaw |
|
18 Sep 99 - 09:15 PM (#115412) Subject: RE: Think About This.... From: Art Thieme My family was always giving me shit. Me and my brother were just talking about that today. We pretty much got used to it. So much so that at least we both realize that no matter how hard the times get, we'll never ever starve. Art |
|
18 Sep 99 - 10:11 PM (#115430) Subject: RE: Think About This.... From: Joe Offer Groan... Good one, Art. I guess I gripe about my kids here a lot. There's a lot of things I could want for them. I wish my oldest son hadn't spent several years supporting himself by petty thievery. I wish they wouldn't play around with drugs, even though it's just marijuana and a few minor experiments with other things. I wish my 20-yr-old would stick with girlfriends who are over 18. I wish my daughter would be a little more careful to stay away from guys who could be violent. I wish they'd support themselves and stay away from welfare, or else go to school and let me support them. I wish they'd take better care of their health. They do a lot of things that scare the hell out of me. However, I have to say they're all good people. They call every once in a while to make sure I'm doing OK. They're generous to everyone, to the point where they don't watch out for themselves. They're all very creative, and they think for themselves. And I really like them. I guess that means that they turned out OK. -Joe Offer- |
|
19 Sep 99 - 04:20 AM (#115470) Subject: RE: Think About This.... From: _gargoyle You should have tried the feces....(ie marrage counseling/church.) No matter how bad it was it would have "messed up" the kids less than the divorce.
Of course....I believe the original poster was "right on target." When it comes to dogs and kids... consistancy is vital. Anything else is a wind tossed wave. |
|
19 Sep 99 - 12:40 PM (#115519) Subject: RE: Think About This.... From: Frank Hamilton IMHO, the father who served dog poop brownies has done a disservice to his children by not giving them the necesary information to make up their own minds but by dismissing the "offending" material and forcing his own opinions on them. His "dog poop" assessment reminnds me of the kind of criticism one reads in many newapaers today under the Arts section. I think that a kind of pseudo-morality is equivalent to dog poop. If the father had imparted the right kind of values to his children, he would not have offered them dog poop and they would be able to decide for themselves. Frank Hamilton |
|
19 Sep 99 - 11:08 PM (#115632) Subject: RE: Think About This.... From: DonMeixner I am a little disappointed that Bensson hasn't returned to add to this debate. I think that one point he makes that I agree with is this. If I'm the one in charge of raising my minor children, my decisions on culture, art, bedtime and dog are the absolute last word. It should go no further than that. Don Meixner |
|
19 Sep 99 - 11:47 PM (#115638) Subject: RE: Think About This.... From: catspaw49 Which was as you and I both know Don the real point I think he was trying to make. And you're absolutely right. As a long time foster parent with over 30 kids out there, Karen and I try to give all our kids a big envelope to work in, but push too hard and you're in trouble. In the final analysis, a family is not a domocracy. Prior to running into a few health problems, I did a training for foster/adoptive parents called, "Staying Cool at Lobster House." Simply put, foster parents do repair work, not the "finish" details. The kids come to us with some really unbelievable baggage, and the idea of trying to remake a human being as you might do with a "Home Grown" child is ludicrous. Lobsters have an Exo-skeleton, and that's kinda' how we look at the kids and our house. No long list of rules, just some easy basics. They're free to ask advice or not and pay the dues if they screw up. I can't rebuild the bones that have been broken over the years, but I can give them an exo-skeleton to make them reasonable members of society (sometimes) and they can do the finish work on that. Everybody knows where the lines are and we are a "popular" home for teens. Quite seriously, several kids were being disruptive where they were so they could come live at our house! Anyway, the one thing that all know is that we are a family and this ain't a democracy. It gets very complicated sometimes around here, but the minor successes make it worthwhile.....I think. I loved the story of your kids Don.....not watching the show. We worried a lot about Mikey and Tris growing up in this often nuthouse with so many other influences......but they're both doing well. The 17 year old was watching some gore blaster hackem up thing and Mikey, age 6, walked in, watched for about 5 minutes and said, "This REALLY stinks.......Dad, can you get me some more paper to draw on?" Good head....... Spaw |
|
20 Sep 99 - 12:40 AM (#115645) Subject: RE: Think About This.... From: _gargoyle It does not take a rhetorician to determine what Benson considered POOP"It was only rated PG-13 because of the suggestion of sex--they never really showed it. The language was pretty good--the Lord's name was only used in vain three times in the whole movie. The teens did admit there was a scene where a building and a bunch of people were blown up, but the violence was just the normal stuff. It wasn't too bad."
Similies and metaphors are powerful teaching tools and expecially apealing to children....IMHO we have too much Pokemon and a too little Aesop.
"Teach your children in the teachings of the Lord.... and in their latter years they will not depart from them... |