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23 May 11 - 03:44 PM (#3159312) Subject: BS: Cat to cat aggression/advice From: Phil Cooper Hi, I usually stick to music threads, but Susan and I have found ourselves in a situation. Two of our cats (youngest just over a year and the other about three or so by our estimate, both are rescues)have turned from cuddle buddies to adversaries in the course of a couple of days. I literally saw them cuddling on the couch Friday and Saturday night Susan and I had to break them up twice. Both times, rolling on the floor and kicking each other. It fairly clear to us that the older cat is the instigator. We can isolate him, if it comes to that. He is, to us, a very affectionate cat and likes company (ours and the other cats). So, it would be a shame for him to be kept apart. On the other hand the younger cat should not be feeling like he has to watch his back and hide every time he walks through the house. Has anyone else had a similar situation? Any advice will be appreciated. Sending the older one back to the adoption agency is not a consideration. We both feel that you take on your animal companions for life. |
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23 May 11 - 04:04 PM (#3159326) Subject: RE: BS: Cat to cat aggression/advice From: McGrath of Harlow Our cats fight, but I'm pretty sure it's only when one of us is around. What seems to be happening is that one of them uses the other as a way of getting us to open the door and let him out. "Open the door or the pussy gets it..." Sometimes he bites our ankles instead to achieve the same effect. But laying in to his sister is more effective. Smart chaps, cats. |
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23 May 11 - 04:06 PM (#3159328) Subject: RE: BS: Cat to cat aggression/advice From: Jack Campin Make sure there is always food around. Feliway helps. So does catnip. |
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23 May 11 - 04:23 PM (#3159336) Subject: RE: BS: Cat to cat aggression/advice From: Jim Dixon Are you sure it's aggression and not just rough play? Were they making any vocal sounds while they did this? In my experience, serious fights are always accompanied by lots of vocal yowling while play is usually quiet. I have also seen cases where the cats are unevenly matched in size; they want to play but the play becomes too rough for the little one, so the little one protests with some little whimpers, which usually makes the big one back off a bit. |
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23 May 11 - 04:30 PM (#3159339) Subject: RE: BS: Cat to cat aggression/advice From: Phil Cooper They were both yowling, with their fur ruffed out, ears back. We've seen them play fight and it never got out of hand. Also, the younger one has never acted scared of the older cat before. |
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23 May 11 - 04:37 PM (#3159341) Subject: RE: BS: Cat to cat aggression/advice From: McGrath of Harlow All very like human kids are at times. |
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23 May 11 - 04:48 PM (#3159349) Subject: RE: BS: Cat to cat aggression/advice From: GUEST,Jon We've had this problem for a couple of years since getting a new stray. We have two neutered toms and this later one really does try to give the old one a hard time and has beaten the old one up a few times. The problem is worst in the morning until an hour or so after they have had their meals and they settle down and around tea time, and the newer arrival can be very territorial outside. The only answer we have is separation. They are kept apart at these times and we try to keep one inside when the other is outside. It works most of the time but playing "musical cats" as I call it (and there is a third cat around too) can be quite a game some days. |
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23 May 11 - 05:17 PM (#3159366) Subject: RE: BS: Cat to cat aggression/advice From: GUEST,Eliza I have had cats all my life. I don't think it's fair to isolate one, or have them lead separate lives. In a situation like this, I'd grit my teeth and let them work out a pecking order between them. Eventually, they will reach a status quo. Unless blood is being drawn, or real terror caused, give them time to make an adjustment themselves. You say "Two of our cats..." Have you others as well? I've never had fewer than three, and often five cats at a time, and I'm always careful to give equal amounts of affection and attention to each. Cats are very jealous, and will beat up a 'favoured one' if they can! |
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23 May 11 - 05:20 PM (#3159369) Subject: RE: BS: Cat to cat aggression/advice From: Bettynh I've been watching "My Cat from Hell" on the animal channel recently. Most of the time he solves problems of kitty territorial struggle (I'm assuming that's your problem. Both cats are fixed, right??) by giving them access to high ground. Stepped shelves, window ledges, chair-shelf-furnituretop paths that lead to a comfy spot to survey the field. Hopefully, if they each find a spot on opposite sides of the room, there'd be nothing left to fight about. |
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23 May 11 - 05:26 PM (#3159373) Subject: RE: BS: Cat to cat aggression/advice From: number 6 We have 2 Siamese ... the oldest a slinky skinny sealpoint 13 yrs, the youngest a very large fat applehead 10 yrs ... they are very attached and sleep together, and groom each other ... occaisionally they do break into some pretty aggressive donnybrooks .... hissing, growling, ears back, wrestling across the floor, swinging paws at each other ... a couple of times we have been woken up in the middle of the night to the sound of a smashing vase as these fights have somehow ended up on the dining room table (a definate no zone for these 2 critters). Cats as such will fight once in a while .... same as here on the Madcat ... :-). biLL |
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23 May 11 - 05:27 PM (#3159374) Subject: RE: BS: Cat to cat aggression/advice From: GUEST,Jon Eliza, we have three and had four when this one turned up (one has since died). I've had cats most of my life and my mother's had cats all of her 75 years. We are quite used to one cat putting another in its place and pecking orders... but we have not known a situation like this before (Snotcat can lie in wait, Oeidipus can sneak around in terror, etc.). Of course the OPs problem may be a bit different. |
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23 May 11 - 05:35 PM (#3159378) Subject: RE: BS: Cat to cat aggression/advice From: GUEST,Eliza The breeder from whom I bought Smokey 10 years ago told me she had a situation like this, where one young neutered female Siamese was being mercilessly bullied, and was crawling around submissively on her belly all the time. In the end, she gave her to someone else, to be the only cat in the household, and she became much more confident and happy. Maybe this is the only solution, and it's very sad for you I know. But it's not 'giving up', just doing the best for the cat. I suppose I've been lucky over the years, and been able to let things settle of their own accord. |
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23 May 11 - 05:48 PM (#3159390) Subject: RE: BS: Cat to cat aggression/advice From: GUEST,Jon Eliza, while not ideal, I'd describe the situation here as manageable as long as we are careful at the times when aggression is most likely. We certainly could not move Oedipus who's been here over 10 years and I think Snotcat who we've had about 2-3 years would be very difficult to rehome and would wind up a stray again. He is big and still seems to yhink is is a real tom... |
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23 May 11 - 05:56 PM (#3159394) Subject: RE: BS: Cat to cat aggression/advice From: GUEST,Jon Btw, Here is our largest cat Eliza. He is twice the size of our smallest, a little (ex) female cat. |
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23 May 11 - 06:00 PM (#3159398) Subject: RE: BS: Cat to cat aggression/advice From: GUEST,Eliza You sound very capable and sensible, and I'm sure you'll find a way, especially as you feel you can cope with the outbursts. Love your cats' names! It's so interesting isn't it, the very different personalities among cats? I've had all types over the years, they're just as varied as us humans. At the moment, our three are a good mix, with one submissive, timid cat, one 'the boss', very intelligent, and one nondescript gentle easygoing little chap. I suppose personality clashes happen, just as they do with people! |
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23 May 11 - 06:11 PM (#3159401) Subject: RE: BS: Cat to cat aggression/advice From: GUEST,Jon Our cats have two names (given to them by us. TS Elliot will tell you of cats having 3 names). The ones I call them and the ones my parents call them. Snotcat is otherwise known as Worthy. He was named after Nigel Worthington, a former Norwich City manager. One of the others, Mewan, was also named by my mother with NCFC in mind m(Ewan) Roberts. And on NCFC names, we also have Willy Weasel the ferret (who turned out to be female...). Apparently the receptionist at the vets was giggling so much at the name, my mother agreed that she would be Delia for their records.... Second Delia we've had. First one was a cat. |
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23 May 11 - 06:27 PM (#3159413) Subject: RE: BS: Cat to cat aggression/advice From: GUEST,Eliza My husband's a NCFC supporter, we live not far from Norwich. Delia's a nice name for a cat. Does Willy Weasel get on with the cats, or do they chase him/her? (Or vice/versa!) I think Snotcat is brilliant! I'm not too inventive with pet names, in fact my feeblest effort was two brothers, Misty and Snowy, pathetic eh? |
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23 May 11 - 06:33 PM (#3159415) Subject: RE: BS: Cat to cat aggression/advice From: SINSULL Equal loving and affection, equal food and treats and the sensible application of a plant mister when required. I only have to take mine out in order to restore order. One squirt in the face of an angry kitty and he quickly shapes up. Only needed to use it once. After that just the appearance of the offending bottle will work. |
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23 May 11 - 06:42 PM (#3159418) Subject: RE: BS: Cat to cat aggression/advice From: GUEST,Jon Willy Weasel lives outside in a rabbit hutch which has a run underneath. She is taken indoors to have a play but we keep her and the cats apart. She was another stray btw. she turned up in the garden, we caught her, contacted the RSPCA, tried to find if anyone had lost one, but nobody wanted to know.., We had a Misty. She was a dog though. As for pairs of cats, the only one I can think of was a brother and sister we had as kittens. They were black and white and one had a black patch under the left side of the nose and the other had a similar patch on the right side. They became Port and Starboard. |
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23 May 11 - 07:40 PM (#3159443) Subject: RE: BS: Cat to cat aggression/advice From: Lox Cat v cat aggression on here is usually dealt with by Joe ... ... cat v troll is often interesting too! ok ok I'll go ... |
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23 May 11 - 10:17 PM (#3159484) Subject: RE: BS: Cat to cat aggression/advice From: Phil Cooper Thanks for the advice. We do have more than the two cats I mentioned, seven in all. We do have the room to keep them separate if needed. We do give them all individual attention. There's plenty of food. Like I said, this just came up. The youngest cat and the other cat have been together and kitty buddies since March of 2010. None of the cats goes outside as we've seen foxes and heard coyotes in the yard. We don't want to isolate anyone, but don't think the other party should have to be scared all the time. Today I put one of the cats in one room for a couple hours, let him out. Then the other cat tried to jump him, so I put him away for a couple hours. I've just done the evening snack time ritual and they all seem to be leaving each other alone for now. For a little thread drift, these are smart cats. They all know the term snack time, when we say it. |
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24 May 11 - 01:12 AM (#3159523) Subject: RE: BS: Cat to cat aggression/advice From: Joe Offer Much to my chagrin, we have four cats, although I won't let the most recent cat inside. The other three used to get snarky at times, until my wife started drugging them....with cat pheromones. The stuff we use is called "Feliway." It works with a diffuser that plugs into the wall, and it costs about $12 for a bottle that lasts a month. The cats often just hang out around the diffuser and look happy, and they seem to be in a good mood most of the time. Works for us. Hey, Lox, do you think it might work on Mudcatters? I was thinking of singing lullabies to aggressive Mudcatters, but maybe pheromones would work better....or maybe I should save twelve bucks a month and sing to the cats? -Joe- |
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24 May 11 - 01:20 AM (#3159526) Subject: RE: BS: Cat to cat aggression/advice From: GUEST,leeneia Make sure the stronger cat is not keeping the weaker from the litter box. (Blocking access to it is a sure way to make the victim miserable.) Have two boxes on different floors, if possible. (Did you ever read "A Tree Grows in Brooklyn"? I remember the narrator telling how mean boys in school would block access to the toilets for some strange reason. When I learned that cats block access to the litter box, I decided those bizarre boys had merely reached mammal status, having been denied humanity by some circumstance of poverty or abandonment.) |
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24 May 11 - 05:34 AM (#3159611) Subject: RE: BS: Cat to cat aggression/advice From: GUEST,Patsy Could it be it's because they are two males? It might have been alright while the younger male was a kitten pehaps the older male is becoming aware that he could be a contender. It is probably something that they will sort out for themselves. I had two females Misty the older cat spat hissed and jumped up and down at first when introduced to Misha but as time passed (short space of time) they became fond of each other not exactly hugging buddies but very protective of each other. |
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24 May 11 - 08:03 AM (#3159673) Subject: RE: BS: Cat to cat aggression/advice From: GUEST,Eliza I wonder what's in Feliway? I've seen it advertised on TV. I could do with some myself at times, life can get rather stessful! |
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24 May 11 - 08:12 AM (#3159679) Subject: RE: BS: Cat to cat aggression/advice From: GUEST,Patsy Could it possibly have catnip in it? We use to get cat 'toys' with it in and it really did the trick with the older cat, it made her less highly strung and it had a knock on effect with the other two animals seeing her happy. |
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24 May 11 - 08:29 AM (#3159688) Subject: RE: BS: Cat to cat aggression/advice From: GUEST,Jon Patsy, I think there usually is more friction between cats of the same sex but they usually work out some sort of getting along for most of the time. I've also noticed that with many of our cats they seem to need to reassert themselves each day, just putting the "lesser ones" in their place and that's it. Snotcat is different in that I feel that when he is in his aggressive moods, the only way he would be truly satisfied would be to see Oedipus off for good. It is also noticeable that when Snotcat does have a go as Oedipus he is shall I say far more "business like" in going about it than he is with the little female. When he's like that he wants to be "the only tom cat in town". Anyway. Midday here, Oedipus is sleeping happily on my bed. Snotcat is sleeping happily on the freezer (and at this time of day, they could even sleep on chairs in the same room) and Mewan has probably found some cosy spot down the garden. All is very peaceful here. Just got to try to ensure the two "toms" don't meet at tea time. |
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24 May 11 - 09:02 AM (#3159698) Subject: RE: BS: Cat to cat aggression/advice From: Becca72 If it's come on all of a sudden it could be that something traumatic happened. According to my vet, if there is a traumatic event one cat will often associate it with the other cat just because they were there at the time. If that's the case, the two will eventually work it out. In my own experience, I have 3 male (neutered) cats, 2 of whom are litter mates. A few months ago, my upstairs neighbor's cat found a way to come down through a hole in their bathroom closet and ended up walking around in my drop ceiling and had to be retrieved. Strange cats falling from the sky was traumatic enough that my 2 younger cats hissed and spit at each other for a couple of weeks afterward. That was back in December and now they are fine. Similar thing happened with a friend's 2 cats when something was knocked over onto the female while the male was in the room. It scared her and she though him responsible. |
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24 May 11 - 11:26 AM (#3159757) Subject: RE: BS: Cat to cat aggression/advice From: GUEST,leeneia Thanks, Becca. That's good to know. Keep in mind that for a cat a traumatic event might be one the owner doesn't even know about - a sudden clap of thunder, an auto wreck in the street (with sirens and excited cries) or a big dog coming onto their property. Maybe Phil should try giving his two cats special treats together, so they associate one another with nice things. About male vs female - My friends with lots of cats say that among cats, females are dominant. We once had a male cat and added a female. They never did make peace. |
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24 May 11 - 11:38 AM (#3159767) Subject: RE: BS: Cat to cat aggression/advice From: Becca72 Leeneia, I have always found that to be true; all the female cats I've ever had have been dominant. That was what prompted me to have males from this point forward; males tend to be more affectionate, too, at least in my experience. And you are correct about the cause of trauma. I live on the main street with tall brick buildings on each side and trucks and motorcycles go by roaring - all three cats look panic stricken and I have to reassure them that the 18 wheeler can't get them. |
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24 May 11 - 02:31 PM (#3159858) Subject: RE: BS: Cat to cat aggression/advice From: GUEST,leeneia It's good to get confirmation about the male and female cats. I've heard others say the males are more affectionate, but my female is a real charmer. I'm very fond of her. She has made me aware of how much noise there is in my urban neighborhood. She's also broadened my emphathy, because I understand what the noises are, but she cannot. For example: helicopters tornado sirens water department - huge engines and shrill back-up beepers fire engines with sirens wailing and horns blaring |
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24 May 11 - 02:41 PM (#3159862) Subject: RE: BS: Cat to cat aggression/advice From: GUEST,Eliza You could be right Patsy, but we have catnip plants in the garden, and while visiting neighbours' cats roll in it and get spaced out, our Siamese don't seem interested! Maybe there's a Thai plant equivalent we don't know about. I've looked up Feliway, and it lists 'female feline pheromones', but these must be synthetic, and I can't discover what else is in it. As it's diffused around the house, I'm not sure if it's a good idea. I see that you had a 'Misty' too! |
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24 May 11 - 02:53 PM (#3159867) Subject: RE: BS: Cat to cat aggression/advice From: GUEST,Jon Of the cats we have at the moment, I'd say the Mewan (female) is the most affectionate and the most likely to sit on someone's knee. Snotcat (male) on the other hand hates knees and will fight to get off if placed on a knee. But Oedipus (male) sometimes can be determined to the point of annoying you to want to sit on your knee. And Bella (RIP but our last other female) was certainly not a knee cat... As such, I'm not sure there are hard fast male/female cat rules for liking affection, sitting on knees, etc. Ours are all neutered though. Maybe an unneutered tom is a bit more consistent? Wander away a couple of days and come back smelly with signs of being in fights... |
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24 May 11 - 03:40 PM (#3159904) Subject: RE: BS: Cat to cat aggression/advice From: Phil Cooper Both the cats in question are neutered males. It does seem something triggered the aggression all of a sudden, as the older one treated the younger one as a buddy when he was 2.4 kitten when we brought him home in March of 2010. We give them a small amount of fancy feast every morning and evening as a treat (thus their learning when I say snack time). They still always eat it together. The younger used to jump over the older one's butt since he was small. He doesn't do that now, and is keeping a wary eye on him. We are hoping it will sort itself out, without having a keep them separate. We are very careful to make sure all the cats get attention. |
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24 May 11 - 07:02 PM (#3160013) Subject: RE: BS: Cat to cat aggression/advice From: Jack Campin Snotcat is gorgeous. (But his strip is Newcastle United, surely?) The simplest way to avoid clashes at mealtime is to make sure there *isn't* a mealtime - keep food out all day long. Last thing I do before I go to bed (usually 2am) is to put out enough food to last through the night, in two different rooms. |
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25 May 11 - 03:14 AM (#3160151) Subject: RE: BS: Cat to cat aggression/advice From: GUEST,Jon Come to think of it, I've never seen a green and yellow cat. --- Do you use dry food to do that? |
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25 May 11 - 03:23 AM (#3160155) Subject: RE: BS: Cat to cat aggression/advice From: GUEST,Patsy Yes we had a Misty, she was a tortoise shell colour but I called her that because of a foggy smudge around by her nose. She was a very protective loving cat in her own way. She hardly ever walked anywhere around the house and stayed on my shoulder for most of the time. When the last addition to the 'animal' family arrived a King Charles Spaniel puppy she waited until the puppy was asleep and crept over to her. I allowed her to carry on because I just knew that she wouldn't have been any threat to the puppy and sure enough she only wanted to lick her tummy and around her face. It was a lovely moment but I am not sure whether it was a bonding thing or if the cat wanted to put her particular 'scent' on the dog. I noticed that Misty would become more highly strung or edgy if she had a fall out with neighbourhood cats rather than with the other cat and dog inside the house and it was generally best to give her space until she was back to normal. |
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25 May 11 - 08:20 AM (#3160272) Subject: RE: BS: Cat to cat aggression/advice From: GUEST,Eliza Patsy, how sweet, Misty licking the puppy like that! Our Siamese have all got a terrible habit of leaping onto one's back unexpectedly. They can't retract their claws, and they 'dig in' happily, usually at times when you're trying to lift a heavy hot pan out of the oven. My back looks as if I've been scourged daily, a mass of scratch scars! |
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25 May 11 - 10:04 AM (#3160320) Subject: RE: BS: Cat to cat aggression/advice From: Jack Campin I put out a mixture of dry and tinned food, and usually have two types of tinned out at once (we have six cats so that doesn't mean it sits for long). |
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25 May 11 - 03:23 PM (#3160469) Subject: RE: BS: Cat to cat aggression/advice From: Phil Cooper We also keep dry food out all day, so competition for food isn't an issue. |
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26 May 11 - 08:22 AM (#3160772) Subject: RE: BS: Cat to cat aggression/advice From: GUEST,Patsy Eliza we were a bit wary and ready to get between them if anything went wrong but on the otherhand I didn't want to make an issue between them either. Funny you should mention cats leaping on backs Misty used to do that too, I had forgotten that until you mentioned it she used to wait until I was in the right spot and leap. |
