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15 Jun 11 - 10:43 AM (#3170963) Subject: help with Dutch (?) song/dance piece From: GUEST,leeneia I'm back from early-music camp in Texas, and I'd like to share a piece from 1644 with my friends. If anybody knows Dutch or maybe Flemish, I'd like to know what the following things mean. Title: der Gooden Fluyt Hemel on 1st staff: Eerste Boovensanck (I think it's an s, not an f.) on 2nd staff: 'tweede Boovensanck On the staff lines after the end of Part One are huge letters that say 'Bl.' What does that mean? Thanks |
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15 Jun 11 - 12:29 PM (#3171004) Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song From: GUEST,Grishka Title: "The Flute (Recorder) Heaven of Gods" on 1st staff: First top voice (soprano) on 2nd staff: Second top voice (soprano) Bl.: Bloody cryptic. Sorry. If I saw the sheet, I could guess. |
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15 Jun 11 - 02:59 PM (#3171063) Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song From: Jack Campin Could it mean something like "Turn the page"? - usually "Volti" in English scores of the period. |
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15 Jun 11 - 03:54 PM (#3171088) Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song From: GUEST,leeneia I suppose it could mean that, but our teacher was conversant in English, French, German and Latin, with a specialty in early music all the way back to the medieval, and she didn't know what it meant. I assume it must be something uncommon. Thanks, Grishka. I'm glad to hear that the recorder is the flute of the gods. They must use thunder for percussion. Is the language Dutch, then? Why is there an apostrophe in front of tweede? |
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15 Jun 11 - 04:41 PM (#3171106) Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song From: Jack Campin If it means "Turn the page", it will be easy to tell - the rest of the tune will be overleaf. |
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15 Jun 11 - 05:19 PM (#3171117) Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song From: Arthur_itus Bl. does not mean turn the page. Bl. more than likely means Page = Bladzijde. The apostrophe is probably a typo error. The language is very old Dutch. My wife is Dutch. My wife is inclined to agree with Grishka. HTH |
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15 Jun 11 - 06:15 PM (#3171147) Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song From: Jack Campin I've gone googling for a facsimile of this and can't find one. Do you have a link for it? |
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15 Jun 11 - 06:19 PM (#3171148) Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song From: GUEST,leeneia No link. We played from a copy of the actual MS from 1644. It was a class in reading early notation. I could sign in and send you a MIDI, raised one step to be more guitar-friendly. It seems a rather austere piece at first, but given some percussion and a little danceness, it could be fun. Gotta run - time to garden at church. |
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15 Jun 11 - 06:44 PM (#3171160) Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song From: Jack Campin No, I was interested in seeing a scan of the original score. Might be able to figure more out if I had it in front of me. There are modern editions of this that are easy enough to find. |
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15 Jun 11 - 06:52 PM (#3171168) Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song From: GUEST,Grishka > I'm glad to hear that the recorder is the flute of the gods You are entitled to see it that way, but the author thought of his book as a flute heaven owned by gods, and recorders (blokfluyten) as being a subspecies of fluyten. Modern spelling: (blok)fluiten. > Why is there an apostrophe in front of tweede? Probably not a typo, rather a spelling error, comparable to English confusing "its" with "it's". In 1644 a publisher was not required to be an expert in linguistic consequence, let alone in standard spelling which was scarcely defined anyway. A MIDI won't help us with "Bl.". I am not convinced of "Bladzijde". I thought of "bladeren", which might have meant "turn over" (like German blättern), but I am not sure either. Good luck with your blokfluit and with the church garden. |
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15 Jun 11 - 07:36 PM (#3171188) Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song From: GUEST,Guest Betsy Why not simply Bl = Blad (sheet /page) 1 , instead of the extended Bladzijde |
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15 Jun 11 - 08:07 PM (#3171200) Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song From: Jack Campin I found a scan of Der Fluyten Lust-Hof on the web (same publisher and period) and that doesn't appear to have any "Bl."s in it. So it doesn't seem to have been a universal convention, whatever it is. |
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16 Jun 11 - 04:20 AM (#3171315) Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song From: Nigel Parsons Of course, it may be intended to be read either as B1, or as Bl. While printers would normally differentiate between the two, early typewriters (and I'm probably talking about up to 1950s) did not tend to have a '1' on the keyboard. the numeral was usually typed using the lower case 'L'. 'Old Keyboard' |
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16 Jun 11 - 08:13 AM (#3171394) Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song From: Jack Campin Matthysz used movable-type music typesetting, like Playford around the same time. It's icky to read compared with engraving, but he did have both 1's and i's. If this sign was larger than his usual fonts he may well have cut a specal block for it with both letters together. |
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16 Jun 11 - 09:56 AM (#3171444) Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song From: GUEST,leeneia Yes, it's far larger. It fills the entire staff from top to bottom. I think it is Bl. (short for 'Blat,' -- page) and it means to move to the next page. For one thing, if it were B1, it wouldn't need the period. Speaking of apostrophes, at an earlier session I was given a Dutch song about the coming of night, and the first word was 'SNachts. (or 'Snachts) I was told that the 'S was short for a preposition. Interesting. |
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16 Jun 11 - 09:57 AM (#3171446) Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song From: GUEST,Peter Laban 's Nachts = Des nachts (at night) would be the correct way to write that. |
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16 Jun 11 - 09:59 AM (#3171449) Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song From: GUEST,Peter Laban Blatt is German by the way, blad is Dutch. Blat is merely another misspelling. |
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16 Jun 11 - 10:20 AM (#3171457) Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song From: GUEST,leeneia oops |
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16 Jun 11 - 11:34 AM (#3171498) Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song From: Nigel Parsons Speaking of apostrophes, at an earlier session I was given a Dutch song about the coming of night, and the first word was 'SNachts. (or 'Snachts) I was told that the 'S was short for a preposition. Interesting. Like in the 'local' name for The Hague Den Haag, or 'S Gravenhage Cheers Nigel |
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16 Jun 11 - 01:03 PM (#3171532) Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song- der Gooden Fluyt Hemel From: GUEST,Peter Laban Again Nigel, the s is not capitalised as the apostrophe indicates the omitted letters so Des Graven Hage becomes 's Gravenhage |
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16 Jun 11 - 02:55 PM (#3171589) Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song- der Gooden Fluyt Hemel From: gnu Didn't read the thread... I'll PM someone who can crack the case if she is available. |
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16 Jun 11 - 03:02 PM (#3171596) Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song- der Gooden Fluyt Hemel From: GUEST,leeneia thanks, Peter, Nigel and gnu. |
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16 Jun 11 - 05:27 PM (#3171666) Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song- der Gooden Fluyt Hemel From: bfdk I got gnu's PM, but I'm not Dutch, I'm Danish. And this text isn't, so I have to admit I can't crack anything. Bente |
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16 Jun 11 - 05:40 PM (#3171673) Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song- der Gooden Fluyt Hemel From: GUEST,leeneia Welcome to the privileged circle of the erudite anyway. bfdk. And thank you for responding. |
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16 Jun 11 - 06:42 PM (#3171700) Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song- der Gooden Fluyt Hemel From: gnu Well... I figured Bente could as she is fluent in a number of languages... quite talented as a professional translator. I was off base... sorry leeneia and Bente. |
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16 Jun 11 - 10:36 PM (#3171782) Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song- der Gooden Fluyt Hemel From: GUEST,leeneia No need to apologize, gnu. You were just inquiring, weren't you? |
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17 Jun 11 - 06:04 AM (#3171853) Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song- der Gooden Fluyt Hemel From: GUEST,Grishka I am not really good at Dutch, but now my money is on "Bladeren" or "Blader" (imperative). The meaning at that time could well have been "turn the page", like the German analogue, and as Jack (15 Jun 11 - 04:41 PM) guessed. In current usage, the verb means either to browse at random, or to turn many pages to find something particular. Many other words have changed their meaning more radically. |
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17 Jun 11 - 06:38 AM (#3171857) Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song- der Gooden Fluyt Hemel From: GUEST,Peter Laban 'Bladeren' for 'turn page' would idiomatically be unlikely. 'Bladeren' is more leafing through a book randomly, in this context 'omslaan' would be used. Without actually looking at the book it's all guesswork, there doesn't seem to be any convention that is repeated in similar book and for all we know 'Bl' may mean the part was meant for the 'Blokfluit' (recorder). Which is also a random guess. |
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17 Jun 11 - 10:05 AM (#3171918) Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song- der Gooden Fluyt Hemel From: GUEST,leeneia That's a possibility. |
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17 Jun 11 - 10:40 AM (#3171930) Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song- der Gooden Fluyt Hemel From: GUEST,Grishka Peter, your first assertion exactly echoes a part of mine. We are all guessing and wrote so, but to challenge my guess, you should give an argument valid in 1644. "Blokflui(/y)t"? At the end of part one? In a book entirely meant for recorders etc.? Not a single penny on that from me. Yes, a scan of the page might give us some further hint. Leeneia, is the "Bl." on a new staff, otherwise empty? Or on the staff for the 2nd voice? |
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17 Jun 11 - 10:54 AM (#3171937) Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song- der Gooden Fluyt Hemel From: GUEST,Peter Laban 'you should give an argument valid in 1644.' 'Bladeren' as an indication for turning the page is just not used in Dutch, not then, no now. What more do you want me to say? Bl on an empty staff could mean 'Blanco' often used in Dutch to indicate a space left blank. Publications from the same period like 'Oude en nieuwe Hollantse boerenlieties en contredansen' use a variety of squiggles or lines to indicate various empty spaces. |
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17 Jun 11 - 11:58 AM (#3171960) Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song- der Gooden Fluyt Hemel From: GUEST,Peter Laban Just to address your: In a book entirely meant for recorders etc.? Not a single penny on that from me. The title of the collection is: Der Gooden Fluyt-Hemel, gesiert met d'alder nieuwste Couranten, Pavanen, Serbanten, Branles, Almandes, Balletten, &c. meest met verscheyden Veranderingen, door veel vermaarde Musicyns tot de Fluit-en allerley Blaas- en Speel-tuygh, gestelt. Noch eenige Couranten, Balletten, Airs, &c. om met 2 & 3 Booven-zanghen, zoo wel voor de Viool als Fluit, of eenigh Blaas-tuygh te gebruycken which clearly indicates the pieces were arranged for recorder, all sorts of wind and other instruments with additional 2 & 3 piece arrangements for both violin and flute/recorder or other wind instruments. A book entirely meant for recorders? I wouldn't think so. |
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17 Jun 11 - 05:53 PM (#3172072) Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song- der Gooden Fluyt Hemel From: GUEST,Grishka Peter, "Blanco" (meaning: "This space is blank for technical reasons only, please don't mistake it for a long rest or the end of the piece!") seems possible to me, "Blokfluit" - no. The title you mentioned, which I had googled before, indicates an entirely variable instrumentation for the whole book; that's what I meant by "recorders etc.". Now, assume you are performing leeneia's piece on a violin, and after part one, you suddenly read "Bl.", would you quickly drop your fiddle and continue on a recorder? And then turn the page? A more interesting question would be about the ambitus, allowing conclusions about the possible type(s) of recorder. leeneia, what is the lowest and highest note in those "boovensanck"s? Bladeren in 1644: As you doubtless know, Peter, Dutch has changed completely since that time, whereas standard German remained essentially unchanged, due to Martin Luther's authority. German "blättern" is currently used to cover all the meanings in question. |
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18 Jun 11 - 03:59 AM (#3172210) Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song- der Gooden Fluyt Hemel From: GUEST,Peter Laban Then you can no doubt provide some examples of it's use in that way. I certainly have never come across 'bladeren' in that meaning. In either old or new texts. I am not making a case for the 'Blokfluit' explanation, I was merely suggesting that while guessing at it you can make yourself believe about anything that sound halfway plausible. |
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18 Jun 11 - 04:54 AM (#3172225) Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song- der Gooden Fluyt Hemel From: Jack Campin Was there some cognate of German "blick" that could have meant the same? And SURELY somebody has at least two consecutive facsimile pages showing this symbol that they can upload somewhere, even if leeneia won't? |
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18 Jun 11 - 05:58 AM (#3172238) Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song- der Gooden Fluyt Hemel From: GUEST,Grishka Peter, > Then you can no doubt provide some examples of it's use > in that way. No doubt not, not even of its use. > I certainly have never come across 'bladeren' in that meaning. That's quite a different statement than "is just not used in Dutch, not then, no now". > I was merely suggesting that while guessing at it you can make > yourself believe about anything that sound halfway plausible. Not believe, just consider. That's the fun of guessing. Scientist would speak of a conjecture or hypothesis, which means the same. Your "Blanco" wasn't bad. Maybe leeneia can tell us whether it would be justified by a lot of empty space (empty staves or even white). Jack, "blikken" means to look, sight, glance etc., "blik" is the noun or imperative for it. I do not see any connection to turning pages. But there is Latin "vi-...-de", translating something like "see there", and used in music to mark passages that may be skipped. Since our publisher tries to avoid non-Dutch words, he might have felt the urge to translate it in a very awkward manner. In this logic we would see "-ik" at the end of the adlib passage. I'd be quite surprised. |
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18 Jun 11 - 06:05 AM (#3172240) Subject: RE: help with Dutch (?) song- der Gooden Fluyt Hemel From: GUEST,Peter Laban |