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28 Jun 11 - 11:51 PM (#3178078) Subject: BS: On Bullshit From: josepp Picked up this little monograph "On Bullshit" by Harry G. Frankfurt, Professor of Philosophy Emeritus at Princeton. He makes an interesting distiction between bullshit and lying. They are not the same thing although we tend to lump them together and use the terms interchangeably. The reason, says Professor Frankfurt, is in the word itself--bullshit. Lies can be carefully and even painstakingly crafted. But think about shit--excrement. Is it finely crafted, carefully wrought? No, it's a blob of waste dumped from the body. One need not be any type of craftsman to pinch a loaf, as they say. It can have shape and possibly even resemble something that is wrought but only very crudely and never down to particulars as it is randomly produced. What the liar and bullshitter have in common is that both are trying to get away with something. But the liar deceives by steering you away from the truth or what he perceives to be the truth (it may not be). In other words, he tells you something he knows or believes to be false. If I was screwing your teenaged daughter while you're away and you begin to suspect that I have done this and you confront me and ask me if I had sex with your daughter and I say, "No, I did not" then I am a liar...but not a bullshitter. Ultimately, the liar deceives about what is in his mind. The bullshitter does no such thing. If you go to visit a sick friend in the hospital and ask her, "How are you feeling?" And she responds with, "I feel like someone dropped a 10-ton weight on me" that would be bullshitting. It's not that she's lying exactly. True, she really has no idea what it feels like to have a 10-ton weight dropped on her but she wasn't really trying to conceal this from you. All she's saying is that she feels horribly bad. Then why call her a bullshitter? Because, strictly speaking, she was bullshitting you. Not lying. The bullshitter is not trying to deceive you about what is in his mind. He has no concern for either facts or lies. What he's concealing in his motivation. So what is your friend trying to get away with? In this case, nothing more than trying to describe what she really feels like--just that it's bad. But this is a simple example to get the reader to see the difference between bullshitting and lying. The liar presumes to know the truth and deliberately tries to deceive you about that truth. The bullshitter is not hiding a truth from you but is, in fact, indifferent to the truth and so any statement he makes regarding it is meaningless. When we call someone a bullshit artist, we mean someone who can lay down a line of crap. Again, if we take crap literally--a waste product randomly dumped from the body--then by laying down a line of crap figuratively, we mean they talk in circles, no meaning, they don't lie or tell the truth and consequently tell us nothing at all. It's the same as saying someone is full of hot air. Being full of hot air is related to being full of shit. Either way, a fart or a turd impart no meaning because they are not wrought--they communicate nothing. A lie is at least wrought. Bullshit is not. What's interesting to me about this is that Sarah Palin is a bullshit artist but she is being followed by a mass of liars. When she says she has studied American history and knows about Paul Revere's ride, she could be lying but she is probably telling the truth in that she believes this to be the case. She wasn't trying to deceive us with her statements about Revere's ride or about her study of history, she simply has no regard for truth. She's a bullshitter. But her followers then went on Wikipedia and attempted to change what was written there to look like she knew what she was talking about. The difference between Palin and her followers is that Palin wouldn't try to change the entry because she believes it supports her. That's bullshit. But her followers clearly know it doesn't and so they are going to change it so that it does. That's lying. That's a deliberate attempt to lead us away from the truth. She's indifferent to the truth because she doesn't care. Her followers are indifferent to it only when it doesn't support what she's saying. That's an important distinction. When one of these far right conservatives talks about America being founded on Christian principles and that you can't be a true American unless you are also a Christian--they are bullshitting but not lying. They believe what they are saying but have no regard for the truth--they are full of shit. This person doesn't care if you can refute everything she said, she said it to demonstrate to her constituents where she stands on social issues--not that she actually knows anything about history. If she said that stuff knowing full well it's not true, then she would be a liar. It's interesting that the far right conservative leaders are bullshitters who have no idea what the truth but are being followed by liars who do know the truth but are willing to conceal it in order to support these leaders. They think it is acceptable to work righteousness by means of deceit. How far can they ride this shipwreck? Will it founder next year or stay afloat long enough that they can make a swim to the White House? |
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29 Jun 11 - 05:50 AM (#3178199) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: JohnInKansas Immediate observation: Professor Frankfurt does NOT UNDERSTAND BULLSHIT. He denigrates a long-honored tradition in his ignorance. The most representative BULLSHIT must be carefully crafted in the manner of a fine novel, and is an accomplishment seldom achieved by amateurs. The exemplars of the craft are due great honor and respect, and their best works fully deserve to survive in the lore of any civilization. He speaketh amateur BULLSHIT, and lacketh comprehension. John |
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29 Jun 11 - 06:40 AM (#3178212) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: catspaw49 Geeziz.....Talk about your bullshit............Anytime someone can write a long piece on bullshit, that's bullshit.......sorta' like Bullshit Squared. Talking about it here is Bullshit to the third power and saying bullshit to the third power is complete bullshit. The truth is that Frankfurt is a dick.......not even a hard on.......just a dick.... Spaw |
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29 Jun 11 - 07:29 AM (#3178224) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: Georgiansilver I thought Bullshit was a cross between a Bull Terrier and a Shitzu!! |
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29 Jun 11 - 07:39 AM (#3178231) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: GUEST,mayomick Does anyone know if the word bullshit derives from Béal (gaelic for mouth)shite . Gob shite is still used in Ireland as an alternative for "bullshitter". |
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29 Jun 11 - 10:09 AM (#3178304) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: Smokey. A real authority on the subject: Beware of the Bull |
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29 Jun 11 - 10:14 AM (#3178306) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: Rapparee I have that very book. It's an amusing little tome but hardly scratches the surface of the subject. |
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29 Jun 11 - 12:08 PM (#3178367) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: josepp ////The most representative BULLSHIT must be carefully crafted in the manner of a fine novel//// This, in itself, is bullshit because it has no regard for truth. Where is your proof that someone who is a bullshitter says things that are carefully crafted on the order of a fine novel? Nowhere. The thing about bullshit artists is their transparency. Who, with any degree of intelligence, has ever been taken in by bullshit? You know as soon as you hear it that it's bullshit. Why? Because you can't get anything meaningful out of it. Why? Because it has no regard for truth. Why? Because that's not the bullshitter's purpose. His purpose to is to present himself outwardly one way in order to present himself inwardly as something else. When politicians talk about how patriotic they are, they outwardly appear to be to portraying themselves as patriots but inwardly they are spewing a certain social agenda. "I'm against gay marriage because it's against God and against what the Founding Fathers envisioned for the United States." This is not really a lie but it has no regard for the truth. Its true purpose is that it lets someone who hates gay marriage know "I'm one of you--a REAL American." As for the brevity of Frankfurt's book, that's the beauty of it. I don't need 700 pages of crap I will never read--get to the point and I'll take it from there. As for whether Professor Frankfurt is a dick--who cares? He may be for all I know but I still like what he wrote. |
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29 Jun 11 - 12:43 PM (#3178383) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: Jack the Sailor ////The most representative BULLSHIT must be carefully crafted in the manner of a fine novel//// Josepp, It certainly was Bullshit. But not for the reason you think. >The bullshitter does no such thing. If you go to visit a sick friend in the hospital and ask her, "How are you feeling?" And she responds with, "I feel like someone dropped a 10-ton weight on me" that would be bullshitting.< This definition could not be more wrong. What you describe here is a simile. And it is not Bullshit or even untrue because she doesn't expect you to believe it. She knows that you know that she has never actually experienced a ten ton weight on the head. While JohninKansas', statement was total Bullshit, because he obviously knows a thing or two about Bullshit and knows that making an off the cuff, non crafted statement like. "The most representative BULLSHIT must be carefully crafted in the manner of a fine novel" is likely to fool someone who is apparently a Bullshit ingenue (even a male ingenue) But be appreciated by a larger audience which truly appreciates the skill of a truly accomplished Bullshitter. Yes josepp. Please keep in mind that, while good Bullshit does involve exaggeration and is not as purposeful as out and out lying, it is designed to fool someone. |
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29 Jun 11 - 06:12 PM (#3178651) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: Little Hawk Ummmm....yeah. Okay, I think there are numerous different forms of bullshit. Some forms of bullshit ARE intended to deceive. Some are merely exaggeration and embellishment, intended to make things more exciting for the bullshitter and for whoever is listening. Still other forms of bullshit ARE believed by the bullshitter even THOUGH they are untrue, therefore are not intended to deceive, but DO deceive anyway, if someone is taken in by them. But do I care? Ummmm...nope. Matter of fact, I think I just wasted about 30 seconds of my time here. ;-D |
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29 Jun 11 - 06:39 PM (#3178665) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: josepp ////While JohninKansas', statement was total Bullshit, because he obviously knows a thing or two about Bullshit and knows that making an off the cuff, non crafted statement like. "The most representative BULLSHIT must be carefully crafted in the manner of a fine novel" is likely to fool someone who is apparently a Bullshit ingenue (even a male ingenue)///// Why? Because his statement had no regard for the truth. He wasn't lying outright. But he said something to make a case that had nothing to do with what he was saying but to advance his real motivation---to use it as an opportunity to disagree with me. Period. That was all he wanted to do---fuck with me--and that was his true motive hidden behind a non-truthful (as opposed to untruthful) statement that allowed him to advance that motive. See how it works? ////But be appreciated by a larger audience which truly appreciates the skill of a truly accomplished Bullshitter.//// There are no truly accomplished bullshitters. They are alsways easily spotted. We all have a built-in bullshit meter and when someone says something that sets it off, we know it. And all of us have tried to bullshit our way through something and been called on it. I'd be a liar (as opposed to a bullshitter) if I said I didn't. Because I have been called out for bullshitting and I couldn't wiggle out of it though I tried. Why? Because I was bullshitting. You can't explain bullshit because it has no meaning. Otherwise it wouldn't be bullshit. ////Yes josepp. Please keep in mind that, while good Bullshit does involve exaggeration and is not as purposeful as out and out lying, it is designed to fool someone.//// Yes, that was my point. The bullshitter and the liar both are trying to get away with something. The difference is that the liar is purposefully not telling the truth; the bullshitter has no regard for truth or falsehood but is simply laying down a line of shit in order to advance his true motives. There's a significant difference between the two but also significant similarities which is why liars are generally also bullshitters and vice-versa. And why we tend to confuse bullshit and lying. But lies can be very finely crafted. Bullshit never can. Then how does a bullshitter like Sarah Palin fool people? She doesn't. Her own followers know she is a bullshitter. They follow her because they see her as someone who can advance their agenda. Her bullshit contains elements that resonate with their beliefs but they still know it's bullshit--so they try to change the world around them to match her bullshit. They wouldn't do that if they were fooled by it. |
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29 Jun 11 - 06:42 PM (#3178666) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: catspaw49 And then there is this wonderful BS about Lies and Truth from the late and very great Allen Sherman. It beats the hell out of Dickie Frankfurt............. Spaw |
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29 Jun 11 - 06:45 PM (#3178669) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: Jack the Sailor How can you say both this "Yes, that was my point. The bullshitter and the liar both are trying to get away with something." and this "The bullshitter does no such thing. If you go to visit a sick friend in the hospital and ask her, "How are you feeling?" And she responds with, "I feel like someone dropped a 10-ton weight on me" that would be bullshitting." The two statements are contradictory. Are YOU the BullShitter? |
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29 Jun 11 - 07:00 PM (#3178680) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: Jack the Sailor Spaw, that Allen Sherman thing is obviously some well crafted BullShit comparable in quality with a fine novel! |
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29 Jun 11 - 07:02 PM (#3178682) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: Don Firth One can be a fairly good practitioner of the art without, as the opening post shows, knowing bullshit from Shinola. Don Firth |
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29 Jun 11 - 07:04 PM (#3178683) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: Jack the Sailor >> Why? Because his statement had no regard for the truth. He wasn't lying outright. But he said something to make a case that had nothing to do with what he was saying but to advance his real motivation---to use it as an opportunity to disagree with me. Period. That was all he wanted to do---fuck with me--and that was his true motive hidden behind a non-truthful (as opposed to untruthful) statement that allowed him to advance that motive. See how it works?<< I think you give yourself too much credit. I think he was simply sharing some clever BullShit with fellow aficionados. On the other hand. How do we know he was not serious? He has not shared with us what he actually believes. And his statement is logical. |
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29 Jun 11 - 07:16 PM (#3178700) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: Amos Please!! You are arguing about the merits of sand while sitting in the desert. The grandest, most carefully-wrought thread in all of Mudcat Land--the very Mother of All Bullshit threads--is only a quick and easy click away. Over forty thousand scintillating jewels from the hands of the finest artisans of pure BS in all the land. Why tarry any longer? A |
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29 Jun 11 - 07:18 PM (#3178705) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: josepp Corrrrrrrinthian leather. Remember that? Ricardo Montalban made a car commercial many moons ago where he states that the car's seats are made of the finest "Corrrrrinthian leather." Montalban said years later that when they shot the first take, the director was dissatisfied with Montalban simply saying, "...with seats made of fine leather." He wanted him to spice it up by saying fine Corinthian leather. Montalban reshot it and hammed it up by rolling the "r"--Corrrrrrinthian leather. It became fodder for the late night skits and comedy shows. I remember Eugene Levy of SCTV when playing Montalban on a lampoon of "Fantasy Island" when he goes off on a rant and tears the whole Corinthian leather thing a new asshole. So were they bullshitting or lying? It's a fine line becuase they just made up Corrrrrinthian leather but was it an out and out lie? Well, the seats were made of leather or at least they assumed so and so that's not a lie. Saying the leather was from Corrrrrinthia shows more of a disregard for the truth than a concealing of the truth. After all, people ridiculed the shit out of the commercial and so it wasn't like they cared if people found out that there is no Corrrrrinthian leather--in fact, there may be, that is, if Corinthia still existed--which it may for all they (or I) know or care. So the apparent motive--to entice you with the car with the seats of fine Corrrrrrinthian leather--was a cover for the true motive--to get you to just buy the damned thing. So ultimately, I think the Corrrrrrinthian leather thing was bullshit rather than lying. |
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29 Jun 11 - 07:19 PM (#3178707) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: Jack the Sailor That's the problem with BullShit Amos. Only one's own does not stink. :-) |
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29 Jun 11 - 07:23 PM (#3178709) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: Jack the Sailor josepp, As a dues paying member of the International Union of Bull Shit Artists, I'm gonna let you in on a little secret that not everybody outside the IUBSA knows. ALL ADVERTISING IS BULLSHIT!!!! |
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29 Jun 11 - 07:33 PM (#3178716) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: josepp ////////////////////////////How can you say both this "Yes, that was my point. The bullshitter and the liar both are trying to get away with something." and this "The bullshitter does no such thing. If you go to visit a sick friend in the hospital and ask her, "How are you feeling?" And she responds with, "I feel like someone dropped a 10-ton weight on me" that would be bullshitting." The two statements are contradictory. Are YOU the BullShitter?/////////////// Anything can be made to look like bullshit if you remove the context. I explained the whole thing but you excised part of it such that you can't make heads or tails of it. The patient in the hospital is bullshitting you because she doesn't know what a ten-ton weight feels like falling on her. Her true motive is simply to get across that she feels bad but doesn't want to explain it to you--after all, you're not the doctor. There was no regard for truth in her statement but she wasn't concealing any truth from you either. Her motive was simply that she doesn't feel like explaining it to you. So she bullshitted you. |
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29 Jun 11 - 07:42 PM (#3178723) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: Herga Kitty Last week's book of the week on BBC Radio 4 was Born Liars ! Kitty |
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29 Jun 11 - 07:42 PM (#3178724) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: josepp ////ALL ADVERTISING IS BULLSHIT!!!!//// Exactly. But not all advertizing is lying. Montalban and the makers of the commercial and the car maker were never hauled into court for lying. When you lie outright in an advertisement, you should expect to be hauled into court or told to cease & desist. I can make a commercial where I say my drink makes you feel better and improves your day. Or i could show someone drinking and turning into a superman or superwoman able to get through the day and still be refreshed by beddie-bye. Not a lie but not really the truth. My motive is not that I have this drink that will actually do that but that I just want you to buy it. But if I say my drink prevents cancer, that's a lie and you better believe someone is going to make me stop making that claim. So, yes, ALL advertising is bullshit but it's not lies just because it's bullshit. |
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29 Jun 11 - 07:48 PM (#3178729) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: Bobert I come from a long line of bullshiters and here's the deal: bullshit rules!!! I mean, let's get real... If you took bullshit out of conversations we'd have one quiet society... But I do agree that Sarah Palin is one fine bullshiter... I mean, not quite ready for the Wes Ginny Liars Competition but not that far off either... B~ |
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29 Jun 11 - 07:53 PM (#3178735) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: Jack the Sailor I don't think she is all that good at it. To me the first rule of good BullShitting is "don't fall for your own." The second is "try not to get caught." We only suspect we know who the great ones are. But we can never know. |
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29 Jun 11 - 07:56 PM (#3178737) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: Jack the Sailor If Montalban did not know that it was Corinthian Leather, he was lying. Whether or not he lost a lawsuit has no bearing on that. |
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29 Jun 11 - 08:33 PM (#3178763) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: Little Hawk As Tarzan would say when confronted by something like this discussion.... KREE-GAH!!!!! TARZAN BUNDOLO BULLSHITTERS! |
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29 Jun 11 - 10:24 PM (#3178809) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: josepp ////If Montalban did not know that it was Corinthian Leather, he was lying. Whether or not he lost a lawsuit has no bearing on that.//// You're entitled to your opinion but I think it was more bullshit than lying. Who'd pass up a car with seats of Corrrrrinthian leather?! |
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29 Jun 11 - 10:38 PM (#3178814) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: catspaw49 Me....It was a real piece of crap. Spaw |
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29 Jun 11 - 10:40 PM (#3178817) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: josepp So you had one. It worked. |
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29 Jun 11 - 10:40 PM (#3178818) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: gnu Hahahahahahahaaaaaaaa! |
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29 Jun 11 - 10:48 PM (#3178822) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: gnu Spaw and josepp.... that guffaw was for youse. Well done both. A great guffer set up and played well! Thanks. I needed that belly laugh. |
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30 Jun 11 - 04:47 PM (#3179287) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: josepp The car Montalban pitched for was the Chrysler Coronado. The original was a pretty good car. By 1980 or so, it changed platforms and became shitty car. Maybe the other fellow bought one of those. Nothing but real Corrrrrrrrinthian leather for me. |
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30 Jun 11 - 05:16 PM (#3179303) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: Jack the Sailor Cordoba? Our neighbor had one. It looked like a piece of crap to us. So we snuck over there one night and tore the leather off the seats to see what it was and where its came. It was simply leather made from humble North American cattle. But it was soft and supple and expandable and sewn in a herringbone pattern that we thought was was strange. So we sent it to the local lab and the results that came back were both shocking and revealing, but in a strange way made sense. The seats which were all processes by a company which does Kosher meats were a series of foreskins sewn together. The seats were pure bull but only a small but very suitable piece of bull. By the way the local lab was a black retriever name "Dewy." |
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30 Jun 11 - 05:29 PM (#3179313) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: gnu Hey man, pass it over here eh. I never smoked Labrador before. You get it from Tommy? |
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30 Jun 11 - 05:34 PM (#3179316) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: catspaw49 No Josee.....The car was the Chrysler Cordoba and I never had one. You asked who could pass one up and I said I did because it was a piece of shit. It was a piece of shit from day one. Chrysler tried to get out front of the curve with its "Lean Burn" system but they had problems out the wazoo. Early computers were primitive for any automotive use and Detroit was trying desperately to hang on to "what was." Emissions......that was the game. Fuel mileage made some additional rules! In the face of trying to hang on they also had to face up! No matter what they did with the computer as it advanced along, there was no way to make any great strides til they gave up and ditched the carburetor. That took awhile as did everything in Detroit......or at least anything useful that might cost them an additional 2 cents. So if you had a piece of "Detroit Iron" between '73 and the late '80's, you were going to be having some sort of problem. By then the carbs were gone and the computers had toughened up and wised up to the point where most of the bugs were gone. The lack of foresight and greed at the top levels in Detroit and Dearborn caused the decline of American automobiles, not the Far East or Europe. Spaw |
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30 Jun 11 - 06:22 PM (#3179335) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: gnu I can't find his Volare commercials... Plymouth Voooolarrrreeeeh. De plane, de plane. |
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30 Jun 11 - 06:47 PM (#3179343) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: Jack the Sailor love these guys! |
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30 Jun 11 - 07:51 PM (#3179380) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: josepp Yes, the cordoba. I thought I had said cordoba and was surprised hwen I read coronado. That's what I get for ....never mind. The Chrysler Cordoba with seats made of the finest Corrrrrrrinthian leather! And bit of Corrrrrinthian vinyl too. |
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30 Jun 11 - 07:57 PM (#3179384) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: josepp Btw, I owned a '73 Chrysler Newport. Biggest hunk of worthless shit there ever was. Owned a Ford and Datsun in the Navy but they were just cars of convenience and not quality. Been buying Toyota ever since and will never buy anything else again. My last one I drove for 300,000 miles over 17 years (and it was a first-year model). Now I'm driving a 2010 Prius and loving it. |
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30 Jun 11 - 08:26 PM (#3179401) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: gnu Love it until we go down the tubes econmically. I bought a Ford. Yer welcome. Why would anyone buy anything not made "here" in this time of economic strife? Sell yer soul for a few bucks while yer at it? Tomorrow, we Canucks wave the LEAF. On July 4, Yanks wave the STARS & STRIPES. You wave the finger when you buy a Toyota and say you will not buy anything else. I will never buy a Toyota. Yer welcome. |
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30 Jun 11 - 08:39 PM (#3179406) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: Jack the Sailor I drive a Saturn. |
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30 Jun 11 - 11:14 PM (#3179482) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: josepp ////Love it until we go down the tubes econmically.//// Already happened years ago. What planet have you been on? ////I bought a Ford. Yer welcome.//// All you paid for was a name. What you bought was Japanese parts. ///Sell yer soul for a few bucks while yer at it?//// Sorry, not a Christian--don't care. ////Tomorrow, we Canucks wave the LEAF. On July 4, Yanks wave the STARS & STRIPES. You wave the finger when you buy a Toyota and say you will not buy anything else.///// Best thing for the Big 3. They need competition. It was lack of competition that put them in the mess they've been in since the 70s. The Japanese didn't hurt them. The Germans didn't hurt them. They hurt themselves and are still doing it. when Japan stabilizes and gets back in the game, as they are already doing, you will see this supposed growth spurt was an illusion. And if the Big 3 can't compete then fuck em. No sympathy from me. We Americans are supposed to be the greatest competitors in the world and all we do is whine about Japanese cars kicking our ass. We never stop to think that there's a reason that's happening, we're too busy demanding $25 an hour for some asshole who sweeps the floor all day and empties the trash. ////I will never buy a Toyota. Yer welcome.//// You already are and have been for years. If you really want to know what working for any of the Big 3 is like come to Detroit. I worked for Ford for 8 years. My current coworker worked for Chrysler most of his adult life. Why did he stop? He got tired of lying to customers as a matter of policy. And watch how they treat loyal employees. Selling off their parts divisions which then relocate to another city forcing trained professionals with homes and fmailies to drive over 100 miles one way to get to work. Bosses who tell you with a smirk that by January, nobody in your department will have a job. A huge corporation that tells a small-time supplier to build them a machine, hand them the buleprints and when the company builds it as specified then tell them that it's all wrong and demand the machinery for free knowing the struggling supplier can do nothing but give in. Another of them telling protesting workers that they won't close their plant as planned after all and then move it to another country instead--but they didn't close it. Everything I just told actually happaned and it happens on a constant basis and has been for years. They have absolutely NO LOYALTY TO YOU OR ME. Consequently, I am VERY PROUD to say I have ABSOLUTELY NONE towards them. In their words, "We are not an American corporation, we are global corporation." Until Americans stop buying their shit and then they accuse them of being unpatriotic. I've had a bellyful of them and brainwashed sheep like you. |
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01 Jul 11 - 12:49 AM (#3179521) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: Jack the Sailor >>>Already happened years ago. What planet have you been on?<< That seems very defeatist of you. >>>All you paid for was a name. What you bought was Japanese parts.<<< Do you KNOW when you are bullshitting? My guess is not always. But you can go a long way to dispelling that by explaining that post. I think he bought a car built in North America with a small amount of Asian parts. But if you know different, lets hear it. |
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01 Jul 11 - 06:04 PM (#3179962) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: josepp ////That seems very defeatist of you./// Yeah, so? ////Do you KNOW when you are bullshitting? My guess is not always. But you can go a long way to dispelling that by explaining that post. I think he bought a car built in North America with a small amount of Asian parts. But if you know different, lets hear it.//// If he bought a Ford, he bought a car where not a single part is made by Ford because Ford does not make ANYTHING that goes in their vehicles anymore. Every system is outsourced--axles, steering, transmission, engine, heating and cooling, electrical, suspension. Ford spun off their manufacturing arm as Visteon which is a totally separate, individual company. We say that when a car company puts its name on a vehicle it really doesn't make that it's "badged." ALL of Ford's vehicles are badged. They can't even define an American car anymore. It's all a shell game. If it has no more than 25% foreign parts? Well 25% is a hell of a lot!!! It's an absurdity to call something 25% foreign American. Why not 10%? Because only two Ford models could make the cut. Why not 5% Why not 0%? Because there would't be ONE SINGLE vehicle in this country that could pass that test--that's why. Look at how the tsunami in Japan has slowed down "domestic" productivity because America does not make those parts. http://articles.cnn.com/2008-12-12/us/american.cars_1_foreign-brands-dutch-mandel-american-car?_s=PM:US **** An "American" brand tells you little about where all the parts in a car are made. I was once at a dinner with Lee Iaccoca where I teased him about my Dodge Stealth, made in Japan by Mitsubishi. Similarly, today's Chevy Aveo is imported from Daewoo in South Korea. Yet Hyundai has a plant in Alabama. Cars.com found only four cars and six light trucks with a domestic content (meaning US or Canadian) above 75%. That list includes the Toyota Tundra and Sienna and the Honda Odyssey. Other Honda's have a 60-70% domestic content, barely missing the cut. http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/what-is-an-american-car/ ***** This week's comment comes from our old friend Hawaiian Don, in response to Civic comes to America; Aaron goes to bed. Don makes a good point that we've discussed in the past: What, exactly, constitutes an American car these days. Don says: If a Honda is built in America with 90% American parts, by American workers, in a plant built by American workers with American materials and the profits are going into an American (American Honda Corp.) company traded on the American Stock Exchange, where we can all be part owners (stock holders) and the company pays taxes to the American Govt. on everything. Yet you call the Fusion American when it is built in Mexico... thank God that the “Ferinersâ€쳌 are investing in our sagging domestic economy, whereas our supposed American companies continue to open plants abroad, showing no interest in helping our unemployed workers. A valid point. I often tell people that I have a 1996 Honda built in Marysville, Ohio and a 1969 Dodge built in Windsor, Ontario, Canada. Which one is the American car? -- Aaron Gold http://cars.about.com/b/2008/10/18/comment-of-the-week-what-constitutes-an-american-car.htm *** Toyota Camry--Top American Car of 2011: http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpps/consumer/toyota-camry-named-most-american-car-by-cars.com-study-dpgoha-20110627-fc_13872758 The top two best-selling American cars: 1. Toyota Camry built in KY and IN from 80% American parts 2. Honda Accord made in OH and AL from 75% American parts http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2010/autos/1006/gallery.american_made/index.html While we're at it the Honda Odyssey is maee in America with 75% American parts, the Toyota Tundra is made in Texas with 80% American parts and Toyota Sienna is made in Indiana from 85% American parts. Only the Ford Focus and Escape have 90% American parts and that excludes the hybrid models which are made in Mexico from 50% American parts. By the American auto industry's own standards, the Ford hybrids don't qualify as American. Toyota and Honda take half of the Top 10 slots. |
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01 Jul 11 - 06:24 PM (#3179967) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: gnu Well uck me. I had no idea my Ford truck was Japenese. My apologies. I guess I'll buy a Japanese truck next time. Not a chance. Ford does not use any NA made materials or parts? You expect me to believe that? And don't split hairs based on what you posted. Are you sure Ford does not use any American materials or parts in the manufacture of their vehicles? |
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01 Jul 11 - 09:41 PM (#3180044) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: Mrrzy To paraphrase Feynman, if you think you know about bullshit, you don't understand bullshitting. |
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01 Jul 11 - 09:46 PM (#3180049) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: Jack the Sailor Who can blame Joesepp, for simply living up to the title of his thread? In this thread he has implied that Fords are made of 100% Japanese parts and that Toyota Camrys are made from 80% North America parts. That is some impressive BS right there. Then he goes on to talk about US name plate cars made elsewhere. But at least he wasn't dumb enough to say outright that the F150 was one of those cars. The fact that he bought the Dodge stealth, knowing where it was made, says much about his defeatism and lack of loyalty for the country where he lives. |
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01 Jul 11 - 10:16 PM (#3180061) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: josepp Folks, really, when you have sources to cite to back up something, you don't hesitate to use them. But where are they? The only sources are the ones I posted. All you can do is whine that I bulshitted you and "implied" things but you have nthing concrete to disprove me. You bullshitted yourselves. Anybody who tells me to buy American is a true bullshitter. Really, now, do some research and disprove what I'm telling you. Ad hominem attacks don't pay the bills. |
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02 Jul 11 - 01:06 AM (#3180109) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: Jack the Sailor Josepp, Why cite sources when your BullShit is self contained? Since you have already admitted to being defeatist and an economic traitor, I have nothing left to prove. |
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02 Jul 11 - 12:51 PM (#3180220) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: gnu "Anybody who tells me to buy American is a true bullshitter." Yeah... I'll pick the bones outta that fish and see if I can swallow it. As fer yer Ford being 100% "not-US", that kinda BS don't need no research if yer bullshit detector batteries ain't dead. |
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02 Jul 11 - 02:47 PM (#3180298) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: josepp ////Josepp, Why cite sources when your BullShit is self contained?//// This is what I'm talking about. You're just throwing darts in the dark and hoping you hit the target. What do you have that's concrete in this argument? I'd have to say nothing. If you have something, you haven't bothered to refer me to it. ////Since you have already admitted to being defeatist and an economic traitor, I have nothing left to prove.//// I never admitted to either. You said I SEEMED like a defeatist to you and my response is SO WHAT? You can make me seem to be anything you want if that gets your little rocks off but it has nothing to do with anything. And my point about American cars is that no matter what American car you buy, money goes to Japan--no exceptions. So I'm not inclined to listen to bullshitters whining about my patriotism when whatever car they bought put money in Japanese banks. ////As fer yer Ford being 100% "not-US", that kinda BS don't need no research if yer bullshit detector batteries ain't dead./// I never said Ford was "100% not-US." I said Ford does not make anything that goes into their cars because they spun off their manufacturing sector as Visteon back in the 90s and the rest of their parts are Japanese and not even the Visteon parts are 100% American. You want to try again or do you think you've beaten your horse pretty dead by this time? |
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02 Jul 11 - 03:44 PM (#3180321) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: Jack the Sailor Josepp, Tell you what, I'll take you seriously and answer your challenges after you answer this one with your citations.... >>Campbell isn't they only guy who writes about myths. There's Gerald Massey, there's G.R.S. Mead, there's Alvin Boyd Kuhn, there's Joscelyn Godwin, there's Albert Churchward, there's Jordan Maxwell. I like to cover my bases rather than put all the eggs in one basket. << Fair enough, Show me a quote from any one of them supporting this nonsense. >>Myths aren't made up. They are handed down. As far back as you go, they are always there. It's like asking who was the first person to depict the heavens. We don't know. We've always been doing it. That's why older cultures refer to an Age of Heroes in our ancient past. Someone started it but it was someone far wiser than us who, for whatever reason, are no longer here. << |
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02 Jul 11 - 03:45 PM (#3180323) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: gnu josepp... you are right and I am wrong about no US in the Fords. I fucked up when I read "If he bought a Ford, he bought a car where not a single part is made by Ford because Ford does not make ANYTHING that goes in their vehicles anymore." I fucked up... plain and simple. Seems to happen a lot with me lately. If only my mind was sharp enough to remember that I fuck up so much lately maybe I wouldn't fuck up so much in future. Ahhh... for what it's worth at this point, sorry about that... and, yes, I KNOW that doesn't cut the grass. This crow tastes like shit... like it should. |
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03 Jul 11 - 06:28 AM (#3180611) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: Dave the Gnome Let me open up the debate still further. After about 6 pints in the pub we often find ourselves talking bollocks. Or, in extreme circumstances, utter bollocks. It is neither lying or bullshit. It may be partly true or it may not. Difficult to tell. What are your views on this? :D tG |
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03 Jul 11 - 10:28 AM (#3180680) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: josepp Never mind the bullocks, here's the [insert here]. |
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03 Jul 11 - 11:39 AM (#3180714) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: josepp Btw, there's form of bullocks in the US called "Springer." It may be true and it may not and it may be partially true. No one knows. Do you have "Springer" in the UK? |
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03 Jul 11 - 11:51 AM (#3180720) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: Dave the Gnome Do you have "Springer" in the UK? Apart from one of the poorer imports, Jerry, no. :D tG |
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03 Jul 11 - 05:02 PM (#3180881) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: Smokey. In the UK we have bollocks, cobblers, twaddle, piffle, tripe, drivel and shit/shite, all of which can be utter, complete, profound, unadulterated, pointless, meaningless or occasionally barmy. There may well be more, and I apologise for any omissions. Bullshit, I think, was originally imported here from the U.S. but is now fairly commonplace, possibly thanks to the film/TV industry. "Springer" is a new one on me, but I can say with some certainty that bullocks, along with heifers, are fairly large creatures sporting a leg in each corner which live in fields - if they're lucky. |
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03 Jul 11 - 06:07 PM (#3180904) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: robomatic Frankfurt came out with a monograph at least 8 years ago because I heard about it in '03. The monograph was available on the web and I downloaded a copy. It has since been expanded and made available for currency on actual paper. It gets truly philosophical, hence the great majority of people haven't read it all the way through; what most people take away from it consist of parroting word blurbs on NPR and news briefs. josepp got it partially wrong in his first message opening this thread. the distinction between a liar and a BSer is that the liar has enough respect for the truth to divert from it at a known distance (to the liar). A BSer has no respect for the truth at all, he or she is merely trying to convince someone of something. Could be true, could be not true. machts nichts. The BSer does not know and does not care. If you are trying to convince someone you are not sleeping with his daughter, you are probably telling him lies provided you are sleeping with his daughter. But someone in the hospital telling you they feel like they've been hit by a ten ton weight is describing how bad they feel. No BS about it. BS would be your friend in the hospital asking you for an ice cream cone and telling you it would be healthy for them. Might be true, might not be true. What they really want is for you to get 'em an ice cream cone. BS is also in the old lawyer joke: "My dog didn't bite your son. My dog doesn't bite. Your son was wearing winter clothes. My dog was chained up in the yard. Your son was in your house. And besides, I have no dog. And you have no son!" The BSer only wants to convince someone of something and will use any argument to get there. Facts are up for grabs and the laws of logic will be claimed but not necessarily applied. BS is, thank you Mr. Colbert, 'truthiness'. Sarah Palin's little Paul Revere speech on youtube is a prime example of BS. In digital circuits, a signal wire can be high, holding a constant voltage like 5 Volts. A held voltage may correspond to '1' or 'true'. The signal can be low, or close to 0 volts. Corresponds to '0' or 'false'. But the wire may also be ungrounded, the voltage may wander all over the place. That is the techie analog of BS. |
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03 Jul 11 - 06:44 PM (#3180925) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: Jack the Sailor josepp... you are right and I am wrong about no US in the Fords. I fucked up when I read "If he bought a Ford, he bought a car where not a single part is made by Ford because Ford does not make ANYTHING that goes in their vehicles anymore." I fucked up... plain and simple. Actually Gnu, you didn't, you were much more correct than our resident BullShitter, Vistion makes a small range of electronics and other replacement parts. They do not make major components, like Engines, chassis, frames and body panels, Most if not all, of the major parts are made in North America by Ford, Other major systems, may be made by Visteon, but may well be made by other parts suppliers. A US made Camry, is almost as North American as an F150, except that the highest paid engineering and executive jobs are Japanese and the profits go to a Japanese company. |
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03 Jul 11 - 07:43 PM (#3180958) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: Donuel Regarding Allen Spaw Sherman's remark "If you tell The Truth, people will think you are lying and if you convince them you are telling The Truth, they will become suspicious. ", is my favorite. It is what I count on when I repeatedly tell the truth. It has allowed me to do so with impunity and a protective cloak of unbelievability. When I write the truth, in the BS section of course, there is seldom a single response to such an incredibly unlikely statement. If I were to broach the truth with "Oh please help me I don't think I can handle this..." there would be a handful of care givers, the white blood cells of our society, who would answer such a query. Many a truth lies buried in humor and satire. The beauty of satire is that you can speak of a situation outside your own sphere of influence and then drop a big heavy immovable truth in the middle of the satire making it more effective and potentially more outrageously funny. |
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04 Jul 11 - 01:09 AM (#3181067) Subject: RE: BS: On Bullshit From: GUEST,Josepp ///If you are trying to convince someone you are not sleeping with his daughter, you are probably telling him lies provided you are sleeping with his daughter. But someone in the hospital telling you they feel like they've been hit by a ten ton weight is describing how bad they feel. No BS about it. BS would be your friend in the hospital asking you for an ice cream cone and telling you it would be healthy for them. Might be true, might not be true. What they really want is for you to get 'em an ice cream cone./// Sorry but I borrowed that example from Frankfurt's book except he has the woman say that she felt she as though she had been run over by a truck. |