BS: Left-Handism

To Thread - Forum Home

The Mudcat Café ^TM
https://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=138956
116 messages

BS: Left-Handism

07 Jul 11 - 10:12 AM (#3183081)
Subject: BS: Left-Handism
From: SPB-Cooperator

Do any other left-handed people get fed up finding that ALL the spoons in a cutlery tray have been placed with the handles pointing to the right?

07 Jul 11 - 10:16 AM (#3183086)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: Rapparee

Turn the tray around.

07 Jul 11 - 10:33 AM (#3183092)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: GUEST,Jon

I'm left handed but usually eat right handed so that wouldn't bother me.

07 Jul 11 - 10:36 AM (#3183095)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: GUEST,moira(flyingcat)

I find that, I also find that everyone hangs up shirts the wrong way round with the hook the other way. Most irritating:). Dn't get me started on scissors, cheque books, lots of things in fact !

07 Jul 11 - 10:41 AM (#3183100)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: GUEST, topsie

I understand that about 10 per cent of us are left-handed (I don't believe the people who insist it is 50 per cent).
Perhaps you could persuade them to put 10 per cent of the spoons pointing the other way.

07 Jul 11 - 12:09 PM (#3183145)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: GUEST,leeneia

What sort of place puts the cutlery on a tray? I'm used to table settings and to cylindrical containers, but not trays.

I've almost never found that being left-handed makes any difference in life.

07 Jul 11 - 12:30 PM (#3183161)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: frogprince

So get yourself an American cutlery tray; any that I've seen have all the handles pointed toward you, not to the left or the right.

07 Jul 11 - 01:08 PM (#3183180)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: Penny S.

All the trays I know are arranged so that the cutlery lies at 90 degrees to the opening, so handles towards the person who opens the drawer. I don't think that can be particularly American. Is this some fancy high end kitchen design type tray?

As to numbers, I read a piece of research somewhere about lefties, which compared the distribution of human handedness with that of chimps. Apparently, among chimps, about 40% are lefties, 40% righties, and 10% either ambidextrous or ambisinistrous (that's clumsy, with no dominant hand). (I may be wrong about the exact proportions, but you get the idea.) This suggested that humans might not be inheriting lefthandedness, but righthandedness. So the research went on to examine all available members of families with one known lefty. And among the blood relations, the proportions were like those of the chimps. There would be a suggestion that lefthanders would be more flexible in hand use than those who have inherited righthandedness (as opposed to righthanders in lefthanded families, who might also be flexible).

Everyone needs lefthanded nailscissors for cutting their right hand nails. Curiously, I am just watching someone explaining a pair of scissors designed to be used in either hand, and getting it wrong. It is not about the handles. It is about which way the blades cross. With righthanded scissors, the blade on the right lies on top when you put them down, and the blades are pushed together during use. A lefthander gripping these scissors pushes the blades apart, so they don't cut properly. Lefthanded scissors have the left blade on top, so the blades push together when a lefty uses them. I researched this for school, and bought my own for the children to use, with strong words about the right handers not using them. It took years before the school caught up with the idea, even though the teacher in charge of ordering kit was left handed.

In classes I taught the numbers of lefthanders varied between 2 to 6 out of 30, as far as I remember. I'm ambi enough to be able to show children how to write lefthanded, and to know that the instructions for a lefthanded pencil grip were utterly rubbish. You know the weird way left handed bank clerks (and there are a lot of them) hold thier pens, all twisted round like Olivier's arm in Richard III. Not quite as bad as that, but they demanded that the pencil be held at the same angle as if held by a right hander, with the wrist turned back towards the left. Not possible. The idea was that the writing implement was pulled across the paper rather than pushed, but took no regard of anatomy!

Googling suggests that the proportion of lefthanders is about 10%, which would suggest that about 25% or so do not inherit righthandedness. In interactive sports, apparently, lefthandedness is as high as 32%. These proportions are higher than in the past. Apparently. There was a bad bit of research done on ages at death done by finding the proportions of lefthanders in different cohorts, and showing that the older the group, the fewer the lefties. Totally ignoring the way lefties were forced to switch hands. Like the King of the Speech, where the switching may have been implicated in his stammer.

I sometimes wonder how strict righthanders manage with screwdrivers and other tools in odd corners. They must be at a much greater disadvantage than lefthanders.

Source for lefty kit. Left handed things - don't know about cutlery trays.

Penny

07 Jul 11 - 01:15 PM (#3183187)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: SPB-Cooperator

it isn't myu cutlery, it's my clients!!!

07 Jul 11 - 01:21 PM (#3183192)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: catspaw49

Very sad for you of course to not have an American style cutlery tray but it could be worse. Remember the old saying, "I was sad because I had no shoes until I met a man who had no dick." Something like that anyway............

Spaw

07 Jul 11 - 01:28 PM (#3183198)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: SPB-Cooperator

Just to explain to right handers - if spoons are right-hand orientated, to pick one up requires:

(a) Picking the spoon up, passing the handle to the right hand, then back to the left hand.

or

(b) rotating the hand by ninety degrees.

07 Jul 11 - 01:30 PM (#3183201)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: Wesley S

I've heard that I'm a sitting left-handed person. The only things I do left handed are things you do sitting down. Eating and writing mostly. I throw right handed, bat and shoot right handed ect. I play all of my instruments right handed too.

07 Jul 11 - 01:35 PM (#3183207)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: catspaw49

So which hand do you use when you...................uh......................skip it.

Spaw

07 Jul 11 - 02:26 PM (#3183244)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: David C. Carter

Wesley S says he plays all his instruments right handed.
And he shoots right handed.

I guess that answers your question Spaw!

David

07 Jul 11 - 02:49 PM (#3183258)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)

It's not the spoons so much as the feckin' right-handed butter knives....

07 Jul 11 - 05:34 PM (#3183396)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: Jim Dixon

"I was sad because I had no shoes. Then I met a man who had no feet, so I took his shoes."

I think that was George Carlin.

07 Jul 11 - 05:52 PM (#3183408)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

I have a left-handed cheque book, from Nat West. It's brilliant 'cos it's the right way round, or rather the left way round, which is right, as opposed to wrong when it's the right way round... :0)

I also have a Left Hander's Calendar. -Entry for today is:

"Australian researchers recently published a study that found left-handed people can think quicker when carrying out tasks such as playing computer games or playing sports."

07 Jul 11 - 08:38 PM (#3183476)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: Donuel

While it sounds terrifying, a large number of left handed people began as twins and absorbed the less developed right handed sibling.

Google it if you have your doubts.

07 Jul 11 - 09:34 PM (#3183494)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: Janie

I worked at a psych. clinic for several years where, astonishingly, 75% of us were left-handed. No wonder we got along so well:^)

I'm curious about several things and would be interested in hearing the observations and experiences of others, particularly lefties.

1. It seems to me that, generally speaking, lefties tend to be more ambidextrous than righties.   I know I am.   Don't know if this from having to adapt to a right-handed world, or because of hard-wiring. Although it feels awkward, I can use eating utensils well enough, or write with my right hand. My handwriting sucks, regardless of which hand I use, unless I write very slowly.

When I print right-handed, I have to pause to think, or I might print a d when I mean to print a b, or a q vs. a g.    (I can also write cursive backwards quite easily - I think I must be brain-damaged.)

2. It seems to me that more lefties do some things right-handed than righties do some things left-handed. I played guitar and autoharp right-handed, and tend to prefer to use utensils like an apple corer/peeler right-handed. Most lefties I know do some things right-handed. Very few righties I know do some things left-handed. (my son is dominantly right-handed but bats and plays guitar left-handed. His handwriting and printing both are terrible.) I often do not understand that I do some things right-handed. I learned only a few years ago that I use the apple-peeler right-handed, when working on a communal project. I was finished with my stent at the gizmo and reversed the tool in preparation for the next person, who I knew was a rightie. It was she who let me know I turn cranks right-handed as she re-affixed the peeler to the countertop in the same direction I had been using it.

3. It seems to me those of us who tend to be more ambidextrous tend not to be as coordinated with either hand as are people whose handedness is more strictly dominant toward either right or left.

4. More lefties than righties have trouble telling left from right in terms of direction. These days, when giving directions, I wave the appropriate hand in the air and say "turn toward whichever hand this is." ( Pre-divorce, I would either look at my hands, or rub fingers together on both hands to feel which hand had rings on it to know what label to use for left and right.)

I never gave any thought to left-handed vs right-handed scissors. I prefer to use my left-hand with scissors, and generally do so.    What is different about left-handed scissors?

My excuse for not knowing left from right goes as follows: In this world designed for predominantly right-handed people, every one knows your right hand is the hand you use the most. Therefore, my left hand is my right hand.

Finally, a colleague in the afore mentioned clinic had a coffee cup on which was printed one of the great but ignored truths of the world.

Everyone is born left-handed. As soon as you commit your first sin, God makes you right-handed.

07 Jul 11 - 10:37 PM (#3183521)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: Rapparee

I went to the shooting range last evening to practice. One of the things I did was to shoot a revolver left-handed (I'm a rightie). It felt "wrong" for a bit, but that passed. I'm trying to be more "coherent" with my left hand -- not because I want to be ambidextrous or anything, but because I think it might be useful to be able to do things with my "weak hand." (BTW, for lefties the "weak hand" is the right.)

My left-handed friend Mary lettered in both rifle and pistol target shooting when she was at University. She's been inducted into the school's athletic hall of fame, no less. SHE keeps her computer mouse set up BACKWARDS so it's all messed up when my wife and I go visit her and try to use her computer!

08 Jul 11 - 12:01 AM (#3183545)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: GUEST,leeneia

I read a lot of books, too many to remember all their titles and authors.

Anyhow, some book I once read on handedness and the brain said that studies show that people:

1. may use the left hand to do a task one time and use the right hand another time

2. can't predict accurately which hand they will use to do a task.

(I assume that this doesn't include writing.)

As for telling right from left, I once started a thread about dancing and asked how many people, when asked to move their right foot, know instantly which foot is their right. About 30 people answered, I believe, and only one person said they know right away. The rest of us have to think about it.

I remember a dance session where the first thing the teacher hollered was "Locate your right foot!" She understood people.

08 Jul 11 - 01:12 AM (#3183559)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: Gurney

When I was a recruit, a guy in the party had to have 'L' painted on the toecap of his boot so that he could start with the correct stride.

Wasn't me. Nor was it me that scratched it off and painted 'L' on the other boot.....

08 Jul 11 - 01:13 AM (#3183561)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: Sandra in Sydney

I'm right handed & have used my mouse in my left hand since 1994 when I damaged my right hand & arm by computer overuse. Back in the early days of computers in offices many of my colleagues damaged their hands, & one taught me to use mousie in my left to balance use of my hands as I spent most of my day using a financial program that that couldn't use a mouse. My section was understaffed & overworked & one of that tasks that tipped the balance was trying numerous times to correct lines on a one-page 448-line Revenue invoice using arrow down & arrow across to fix the errors! I still remember the sequence - arrow, arrow, arrow down to offending line, arrow across 3 or 4 times to offending column, type in correct figure, enter, arrow down to next line ... Try unsuccessfully to save. Give up for a while & quickly raise lots of 1 or 2 line invoices for clients in the same system.

now where was I?

Trying to use mousie in my left hand was chaotic but I eventually accomplished it & now I can't use it in my right hand.

I solve cutting nails by using a nail clipper!

My sister is left handed & once found a left handed shop & bought some useful stuff. Dunno if it was this one! Check out the pages Links, Left handed writing & Trivia.
One in four Apollo astronauts were left-handed – more than twice the general population.

To open a screw-top jar or bottle, grasp the lid with your left hand and the jar with your right. You will have greater strength due to the stronger muscles used in supination of the forearm (as opposed to the weaker muscles of pronation). It is also sometimes described as the external rotation of the wrist.

Coffin screws are traditionally a left-handed thread.

Bit of trivia not on the site: Japanese kimonos are wrapped left over right - only kimonos used to clothe the dead are wrapped right over left.

sandra

08 Jul 11 - 04:34 AM (#3183605)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: Penny S.

Janie, your observations fit with the study I wrote about, which suggests that lefties have not inherited a preference for either side but have ended up with left. You might find that righthanded relations are similarly ambidextrous, though haven't bothered to develop the left hand ability as much as a lefty has to develop right hand skills.
My Dad was a lefty, though switched for writing, and used his skills to teach knots in the Engineers as he could demonstrate facing the troops, who did not need to switch round what they saw. I have been able to learn some things lefthanded.
I learned to play bar billiards left handed, because the person who taught me was a lefty and didn't bother to tell me. I only realised I was playing lefthanded when the same person exclaimed that he hadn't known I was a lefty. I wasn't able to switch back, which of course means I'm not lining up with my dominant eye so well.
I did try to explain about the scissors. The link I gave has a page explaining the difference with piccies, which might be easier to understand. The shop also sells lefthanded secateurs, which would have the same problem for a lefthander using them as scissors, though probably not as pronounced.
Something that often puzzles me is the sort of saucepan with a small lip. when designed for righthanders, this lip is on the left of the handle, so you can hold the pan in the right hand and our out towards the left. But this is not very helpful if making something that needs stirring while pouring, like custard, since you need to hold the pan with the left hand and stir with the right. I hadn't noticed this was a righthanded pan, until I saw a lefthanded version advertised. What was in their minds? (Ihave pans with a curved rim all round.)

Penny

Penny

08 Jul 11 - 04:50 AM (#3183609)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: Penny S.

Forgot, the art colleague who was left handed had to use a mouse upside down, because she couldn't link hand and screen movement when it was the right way up.

And something that irritates me is lefthanders who use a computer and leave the mouse on the left hand side! Perhaps all users of shared machines should make a point of leaving the mouse in the centre below the screen.

Love the screwdriver in the Aussie shop!

Penny

08 Jul 11 - 05:05 AM (#3183614)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: GUEST, topsie

My pan has a lip either side - you can pour and stir at the same time using whichever hand you choose. It didn't come from a specialist shop.
AS for Janie's apple peeler, I have never used one (except a knife), so I have no idea which way round they normally go.
I usually use my left hand for things that require strength, like opening jars, so it is not the "weaker" hand.
Old sewing machines have the handle on the left and the needle on the right, but so did the even older treadle sewing machines, powered by foot action.

08 Jul 11 - 05:34 AM (#3183624)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: Penny S.

I've never seen a sewing machine that way round, including all the ones in All Saints windows, and the ones at school, including treadles. and it only occurred to me now how odd that is, to use the right hand for power, and the left for the dextrous stuff.

The Aussie shop has a left handed milk pan, lip on the right. Peelers have the blade positions for it to be dragged by the right hand - doesn't apply to the ones with a swivel blade which works both ways.

I've looked up Donuel's suggestion and found this:

Handedness in twins, abstract of paper

This shows that being a twin does not affect handedness, contrary to a lot of sites quoting 20% of twins being lefthanded, rather than 10% of non-twins.

And this:

Older work, different conclusion

But even this does not give a high enough proportion to explain lefties as those who have absorbed twins in pregnancy.

There is discussion of what Donuel says, but it does not seem to support it. Those who state definitely that it is so do not give their evidence - and a sense of a missing person in one's life is not evidence.

Apparently about 25% of identical twins are mirrored twins. about 25% of all twins are identical. Numbers of twins born appears to be somewhere between 1% and 3% (the page gave rates of 1 in x) Thus the possible number of lefthanded twins born is not very great. Unless the number of absorbed twins is huge, the number of lefthanded survivors (equal to the number of righthanded survivors) would be almost unnoticeable. That some lefthanded posters on some sites know from evidence that they had a twin who did not make it (I think I read about three) does not mean that all lefthanders, or even most lefthanders, are surviving twins.

Penny

08 Jul 11 - 06:45 AM (#3183651)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: GUEST,Jon

It's not the spoons so much as the feckin' right-handed butter knives....

I don't know about butter knives but I've read of problems with some other knives. At a guess, I think it might apply to saws too - might explain why my hacksawing is so poor.

Apparently what they do is design the blade on some things to compensate for a right handers tendency to lean/pull one way, sort of straightening out their "natural error". Used in the left hand, this compensation will try to pull things further off line.

08 Jul 11 - 07:59 AM (#3183671)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: autolycus

I'm mostly left-handed tho am to a fair degree ambi.

Just about scissors. I've never had a problem and always use the scissors to hand [sic].

I think the trick is to subtly change pressures in my left 'cutting' hand/fingers till the scissors cut fine. It's something otherwise inexplicable about holding the scissors tightly and adjusting everything adjustable in the hand till it works.

Hope that helps :-)

08 Jul 11 - 09:30 AM (#3183712)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: goatfell

I am left handeed but I do somethings right haned.

08 Jul 11 - 10:05 AM (#3183735)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: Donuel

"A large number..", does not imply that all, or even most, lefties were singular surviving twins. It means that many lefties could be a surviving twin and along with the mother, never knew of the gestation of a twin who later vanished.
Sonograms are seldon done in the first 60 days which is the perild of time this natural vanished twin process can take place.

Sorry if you thought that "many" meant all.

08 Jul 11 - 10:12 AM (#3183737)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: Donuel

Muslim left handedness is a very potent cultural phenomenon.

The left hand is reserved for wiping oneself after defecation.
The right hand is reserved for eating.
Offering someone your left hand is tantamount to an insult.

In the west the right hand is most often used for wiping and then we shake hands almost exclusively with the right.

Playing violin is an interesting example of the left hand being reserved for the most minute precise movements to produce the exact tonal increments and intervals while the right hand is relatively stationary as the arm acts as the breath behind the music.

08 Jul 11 - 01:56 PM (#3183851)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: Crowhugger

Oh yes, to answer the OP. Although for some reason I noticed it more with the scissors. I adapted early to the spoon thing by approaching the drawer from the right-hand side instead of from the front--solves the problem completely. But hey no such issues for me in the last 20+ years, ever since I married a southpaw.

Heh, heh, it was downright satisfying to watch my right-handed mother pause for a long moment to mentally wrap herself around the correct handle direction to put away utensils properly (our utensil drawer has things aligned left-right as with teaspoons rather than front-back like the knives & forks). When I saw her looking a little consterned, my exact words, spoken through my broadest smile, were: Welcome to my home!

Probably my bigger peeve: Power tools, certain saws especially. My sense of self-preservation wants to watch exactly where blade meets material. Table saw and jigsaw for example are not so bad but a circular saw is very awkward, requiring to crane my neck to the left to see the business end of the blade, which means left arm operating the saw ends up in a not-very-practical-or-safe position, more in front of my torso than where it naturally would fall at my left. Similar issue arises with chop saw and radial arm but far less serious because operator is not wielding the weight of the tool. Anyway I avoid circular saw cuts whenever possible.

Yes there are left-handed saws available by special order from manufacturers, but last I checked the price was more than double the regular tool. For now I prefer the work-around: I have someone else make long or difficult cuts. It's not like I'm a regular hobbyist, just now and then for stuff around the house.

08 Jul 11 - 08:00 PM (#3184041)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: Donuel

Example of how I play violin the same as the cello

.

08 Jul 11 - 08:30 PM (#3184062)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: gnu

Sandra... "I'm right handed & have used my mouse in my left hand since 1994 when I damaged my right hand & arm by computer overuse."

??? Doesn't (most) everyone who is right-handed use a PC mouse with their left hand? Why would anyone not do so? I am right-handed so I mouse with my left hand so that my right hand is free to write or do whatever. Is this common? And, if so, why??? It seems so odd to me. Why would anyone start using a mouse with the hand that they do so many other things with?

Just seems bassackwards to me.

08 Jul 11 - 09:00 PM (#3184072)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: GUEST,Jon

On my own desk at home these days I can be using the mouse with either hand. My phone is to my right and pen and paper are to my left (and I can't write right handed). Phone and mouse = mouse in left hand, pen and mouse = mouse in right hand.

08 Jul 11 - 10:39 PM (#3184119)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: Rapparee

Actually, I use a trackball whenever possible. Really cuts down on the ol' carpal crap.

09 Jul 11 - 07:52 AM (#3184261)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: Sandra in Sydney

gnu - here in Oz all public computers I've seen (in libraries, internet cafes, banks ...) set the mouse on the right side.

All colleagues & friends who I've seen using computers do the same (except for left handers!) My Personal Help Desk always moves mouse to the right when he is working on my computer.

I had a argument with a librarian when I was part of a guided tour of the public library's new computer system (catalogue & internet computers) as every mouse was set on right side of the public info computers & had very short tails so couldn't be moved to the other side of the keyboard. She made a flippant remark when I said I needed to use it in my left hand - so I reminded her that saying left-handers could change their way of working was not appropriate & reminded her of Govt Disability legislation.

Sometime later I noticed the library's computers had longer tails.

Australian info on mouse set up
How to sit at a computer shows mouse on right. See link to 14 tips for avoiding overuse strain - nothing about moving mouse!

I've checked a number of OZ sites & found none that say put mouse on left tho several did say swap hands occasionally)

sandra

09 Jul 11 - 08:01 AM (#3184262)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: Janie

I mostly use the mouse in my right hand, but that may simply be due the way most computers and workstations get set up. I'm pretty comfortable with either hand - although I prefer to use my right hand with the touchpad on my laptop.

Since experience, especially early experience, plays a big role in how the brain gets hardwired, it makes sense that lefties tend to be more ambidextrous in a world designed for right-handed people. Think of all the folks who had the crap beat out of their knuckles by an early teacher until they learned to use a pencil in their right hand. (I'm lucky my mother went to school after my first humiliating day and had a hissyfit in the principal's office.)

How many lefties here, especially those who are fairly ambidextrous, have not-so-good fine motor skills, despite lots of practice. (Think of handwriting or of activities like typing speed and accuracy, or playing an instrument really well.)

09 Jul 11 - 08:19 AM (#3184269)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: GUEST,Jon

Well my handwriting is lousy and I'm poor at a lot of fine things but I'm not sure how much of this is down to differences in motor skills and how much is due to try to mimic right handed ways of doing things with my left hand.

Take writing for example. We are using different muscles. For horizontal movement a right hander is pulling their hand further away from the body. If I write, I am pulling my hand closer to my body.

I'm not really sure about musical instruments although I'm known to use it as an excuse (had I known there was a left handed way of playing, I would have been better) but I'm not sure and there are so many other variables including where we set our standards to compare to and the standards we may need for playing with others, etc. Let's put it this way, I'm capable enough for what I do although I'd love to be Barney McKenna...

It's also difficult to asses with others as so many left handers do play right handed and you don't always know who is what.

09 Jul 11 - 09:32 AM (#3184291)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: Crowhugger

The first one to teach me a fretted instrument was left-handed and used a right-handed ukelele when I was probably 8 years old. I just assumed that he was showing me left handed, since everything else he (my father) taught me, like throwing a ball and tying certain knots, was left handed. When I discovered we were playing right-handed I felt baffled for a time thinking of long-suffering righties who had to fret with their wrong hand. For a while I believed that every guitar whiz was left-handed and those who knew only a few simple chords were right-handed. Obviously I wasn't considering fingerpicking into the picture.

Goatfell, I too do some things left handed, some things right handed, mostly according to who taught me the skill but sometimes according to the tool, e.g. corkscrew. With the exception of writing and drawing, if my mother or grandmother taught me
..tying shoes
..knitting
..sidestroke
..tennis, I do it right handed.

If my father taught me (except uke/guitar as mentioned) e.g.
..badminton
..fishing
..some knots, I learned it left-handed--well, with a regular rod I cast with left hand then reel right-handed.

Things I taught myself
..crocheting
..tatting
..computer mousing, I do left-handed or both.

Donuel, the violin position you use makes a beautiful visual impact with the cello. I wondered if there is a left-hand/right-hand issue is solves? Also I'm curious, would you play violin in that position with a group of regular violins? I'm thinking of the differences in sound due to the different in bowing.

09 Jul 11 - 12:26 PM (#3184418)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: gnu

Sandra... thanks for the link.

10 Jul 11 - 07:41 AM (#3184790)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: Penny S.

The Aussie shop sells sets of nail scissors with a pair of each orientation. The difference in using a lefthanded pair in cutting the right hand nails is amazing - no adjustment of grip required. I really would recommend lefties to get a pair for any work. The advantage in children's use is wonderful.

Both shops explain the differences with regard to scissors, knives and secateurs (it's the position of the lock device, as well as the cross over. In scissors, it's not just the cross over and pressure - it is also the way that you can see the line of cutting better.

Penny

10 Jul 11 - 11:47 AM (#3184869)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: Crowhugger

That sight line thing with scissors is exactly the situation as with a circular saw.

Scissors sometimes also have special shaping of the loop for the thumb--the inside diameter is angled for more surface area to support a right thumb in it. A left thumb gets a ridge digging into it instead of flat surfaces.

10 Jul 11 - 01:25 PM (#3184917)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

News clips show Obama signing with his left hand.
Obviously a leftwinger.

10 Jul 11 - 01:42 PM (#3184927)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: GUEST, topsie

I saw Cameron on the news last night signing something left-handed as well.

10 Jul 11 - 07:59 PM (#3185129)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: Rumncoke

Here in the UK we set the table to use forks in our left hand - knives in the right. Some people, both right and left handed in writing, change the hands used. One of my offspring does this. These days it would not usually be remarked upon.

For some deserts a spoon and a fork are used, and the fork would be used in the left hand, spoon in the right, but I reverse this. I use a soup spoon lefthanded too.

Being used to feeding myself left handed I use chopsticks in that hand. although I can manage right handed I am not as deft with that hand. This is quite shocking to those who traditionally use chopsticks and so I do not ask for chopsticks when eating in their restauraunts.

Handedness is not a set thing - for instance my sister writes with her left hand but uses scissors in her right, I use the left and have left handed scissors.

I am 60 years old now, but still remember the dissapproval of my father and his father when I picked up a pencil or crayon. I would have been only 4 or 5 years old. My mother was rather sharp with them and they stopped commenting.

I think it wise to work with both hands as much as possible - accident or illness could easily incapacitate a hand, leading to temporary or even permanent disability. It might make the difference between a good life and a miserable one to have some degree of ambidextrous ability.

Anne Croucher

Dorset England

10 Jul 11 - 08:01 PM (#3185130)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: Gurney

As Crowhugger says: The more specialised scissors become, the more 'handed' they are. Try some tailor's shears.

10 Jul 11 - 10:08 PM (#3185189)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: Bee-dubya-ell

I misread the title of this thread as "Left-Hinduism".

10 Jul 11 - 10:46 PM (#3185198)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: Rapparee

Oh, come on. EVERYONE knows that left-handed people are the spawn of Satan, the fiendish imps of Lucifer, and they all work to inflict their Agenda on the Elect.

Take my friend Mary. Not only is she a librarian, she's ALSO a lawyer (admitted to practice before the US Supreme Court, no less!) and an Associate Dean of Law.

And she owns a dachshund.

What further proof is needed?

10 Jul 11 - 11:19 PM (#3185204)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: GUEST,leeneia

Lefthanded and owns a dachshund? Sounds like w wonderful person to know. I envy you, Rap.

Rumncoke, I agree that people should use both hands as much as possible. I often tell people, "Make friends with your left hand."

It's sad to hear people say, "I wanted to play piano (for example), but I can't get anywhere with my left hand." Every task that uses both hands takes time to master. Messages have to go from one hand to the brain, across the brain and to the other hand. We need to learn that there will be a period of awkwardness and defensiveness at first, but then the skill will come.

11 Jul 11 - 12:29 AM (#3185228)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: Clontarf83

Has anyone ever heard if there is a piano for lefties?

Before I started school my mother went to the school teachers and told them I was left handed and to leave me alone. (A kid down the street developed mental function problems when the Brothers beat him into writing with his right hand.)

I play guitar , mandolin right handed. Also golf. I am told that some golfers at the PGA level play left handed even though they are naturally right handed.

I read many moons ago in a back page of the globe and mail (Canada) that cultures with a high proportion of left handedness have higher murder rates. Maybe this explains why the Latin for leftie is "sinister"...

11 Jul 11 - 02:49 AM (#3185254)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: Penny S.

I saw a paper on the violence issue - I think the idea of the researchers was that where there is a lot of fighting, lefties have an advantage because the righthanders do not expect and have not devised defences against a leftie. The Border family Kerr was one which had a lot of lefties. I remember that one family built their spiral stairs the "wrong" way, so that they had the advantage in defence. The usual curve allowed defenders to use the right hand. It occurs to me that if the curve favours leftie defenders, it also favours rightie attackers.

It also seems likely that as the number of lefties rises with increased violence, the righties would learn to defend against leftie opponents, so there would be a limit to this situation. I am rather worried about the almost totally pacifist tribe with almost no lefties at all. I suppose it isn't impossible that random processes would lead to this situation, but I would like to know what happened to lefties that did occur.

If the hypothesis that righthandedness is inherited, but lefthandedness is not, it is going to be much easier for members of lefthanded families, with weak handedness, to learn to use either hand than for genetic righties, with a strong laterality.

Penny

11 Jul 11 - 11:19 AM (#3185453)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: JohnInKansas

A perhaps curious (to some?) case of handedness is obvious among trades/crafts people in my area in the case of "metal snips" used quite commonly.

Called "aviation tin snips" (although almost nothing in the aviation industry has tin in it) the "compound lever metal snips" come in left-hand, right-hand, and "combination" versions, and it's common for them to be sold in sets of all three.

a picture

the theory?

The "right-handed" ones have the blades arranged, and a relief on the upper blade, so that they easily follow a curve that turns to the right. The blades "point" at an agle to the handles so that the hands will be well above what's being cut. They're not particularly efficient for a curve to the left. The right-handed ones always (traditionally) have a green handle.

The left-handed ones have the blades reversed so that they follow a curve to the left easily, but don't work well if the curve goes to the right. The blades are at an angle to the blades so that the hand clears. The left-handed ones always have a red handle.

The "combination" ones have symmetrical blades so that they are a little easier to use to make a straight cut, but not too suitable for other than very gentle curves in either direction. The blades are on a straight line with the handles. The combination ones always have a yellow handle.

Virtually everyone who does "mechanical" work in the aircraft industy has a green handled one in the tool box. Perhaps 10% might have a yellow handled one. Red handled ones are extremely rare.

Although an explanation for the relative popularity of the three kinds should be left for a question on the quiz at the end of the class - - -

The reason that few people have both red and green (right and left) is that either one is sufficient. If you use them with the handles above the piece being cut, the curve goes one way; but if you put the handles on the other side the curve is reversed. (Pause to think and it will be obvious.)

If it's inconvenient to "cut from the other side" you can almost always turn the sheet over and lay out the curve on the other side of the sheet.

Since the "right-cut" (green handled ones) give better visibility of the curve you're trying to follow if you're right handed, the "green" ones are more popular. Since there's no need for both, and either will do, there are lots of green ones the "lefties" can "borrow."

It shoud be noticed in this case that it's the tool that has "handedness" and it makes no difference which hand the user favors.

Quite obviously there's no such thing as a "curve right" or a "curve left" if you look at it from the other side.

So by extrapolation, we may conclude that those odd people are not left-handed. They're just upside down.

As a side note, these snips are commonly called "Dutchmans" because the original maker (pre WWII) was named "Deutsch Mfg." Someone might holler "gimme a green dutchman" and everyone would know what was meant.

The original maker is now called Wiss," but I don't recall anyone yelling "gimme a green wiss" on the shop floor. (Sometimes it's best to respect traditional names?)

John

11 Jul 11 - 03:25 PM (#3185617)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: MikeL2

hi

I don't know if their is such a thing as a left handed tennis raquet??

But I heard somewhere that Raphael Nadal the World No 2 player is right handed but plays tennis left handed....go figure....

Incidently there is such a thing as a left-handed cricket bat.....really !!!

Does left-handedness follow in the genes?? In my family from my maternal grandmother down, all the females are lefthanded and the males right.

cheers

Mikel2

11 Jul 11 - 04:33 PM (#3185651)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: Penny S.

Cricket gloves and pads, yes. Bats, no.

Penny

11 Jul 11 - 04:52 PM (#3185658)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: GUEST,Jon

Cricket bats are handed. The bottom of the bat is shaped a little different where it passes your feet.

11 Jul 11 - 04:57 PM (#3185661)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: Penny S.

I've just read up the manufacture, construction and purchase of cricket bats, on several sites and not a word about handedness.

Penny

11 Jul 11 - 05:06 PM (#3185666)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: GUEST,Jon

Try shopping for this bat for example. You will see there are right and left handed options.

11 Jul 11 - 06:19 PM (#3185709)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: GUEST,Jon

I must admit that looking around now, that Grey Nicolls bat seems to be the only example I can find and that seems to be handed because the handle is offset.

Maybe they don't do it now but I'm pretty sure that at least at one time, if you looked at the edges of a bat, one was longer than the other at the bottom.

11 Jul 11 - 07:42 PM (#3185747)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: Rapparee

There is DEFINITELY handed-ness in fencing! Lefties have an advantage over righties because righties are used to fencing righties. Now if you want to REALLY throw off an opponent, use an Italian foil (ambi) and switch from right to left. Of course, it would help a lot if you practiced both hands first....

11 Jul 11 - 07:47 PM (#3185748)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: gnu

JiK... I have a full set of tin snips and they have nothing to do with hands as far as cutting goes but they are ALL right-handed snips because the grips are made for a righty. Don't they make a full set for a lefty?

12 Jul 11 - 01:10 AM (#3185845)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: JohnInKansas

gnu -

Most snips have a single pivot, and the cutting of a metal sheet is pretty much a matter of brute force on the handles. The force applied by the cutting blades against the metal is a simple mechanical ratio between the length of the handles and the distance from the pivot point to where the blades make contact with the metal.

The aviation snips have a second pivot point that allows the handles to apply a "multiplied force" to the smaller "headpiece" snip asssembly, so that the force applied to the handle is multiplied, usually by about 4x at the point where it's applied to the "handle end" of the actual cutting blades, which have an additional - usually about 1.5x to 2x - multiplication of the first force to the actual cutting force at the blade. The end result is that with the aviation snips the same handle effort applies close to 8 times the effect at the cutting point on the blades as would be obtained with a pair of single-pivot snips.

The "compound lever" effect is similar (conceptually) to using an enormous pair of pliers to squeeze the handles of your simple snips together - and the same effect as using simple snips 8 times as long as what you've got.

When you shear something the material on one side of the blade has to go in one direction and the stuff on the other side has to go the other way. When cutting sheetmetal (or the &#$@! #@$@! that HP puts their ink cartridges in) the cut sheet "springs back" and may bind on the blades and also may make it difficult to shove the shears further along the cut to make the next squeeze.

A secondary feature of the aviation snips is that the blades are "exotically shaped" to create a small amoung of "crimp" to the sheet as it's cut, so that it takes less effort to retract the blades (re-spread the handles) and advance them for the next cut.

Especially with soft metals like aluminum or copper, the "springback" as the blades are reopened is enough to require some effort to get the shear off the metal after you've made a cut. In most cases the simple snips have "loops" on each handle so that you can pull them back apart after making the "snip," and with some materials it can require almost as much force on the loops to open the blades as it does to make a cut. The shaping of the av snip blades reduces the "withdrawal" force suffiently that a small spring is sufficient for the return stroke, and the loops are not needed.

Especially since it's not necessary to have the loops to reopen them for the next cut, the handles of av snips are perfectly symmetrical, so that it doesn't matter which-handed the user is to use either-handed snips. The compound lever construction also permits a very massive pivot at the actual cutting blades, so that they're stiff enough that there's no need to apply "hand torque" to keep them from spreading.

Aviation snips are commonly "rated" for about 18 ga (0.050") steel, but occasionally the packaging will say 16 ga (0.0624"). Because I'm old and feeble, for steel that thick I'd probably use a hacksaw (or a cutting torch if I had one), but I've recently cut a few short snips in some 1/8" thick fairly soft aluminum with little difficulty.

With simple snips of sizes I have^*, cutting .06 thick steel probably would mean propping the snips up and hitting the handle loop with a 3 pound hammer. (And then I'd use a short crowbar to pry the blades back open.) It would be a little easier if the sheet was "dead annealed" but it's seldom found that way.

^* I think I've got a 14" pair somewhere in a toolbox?

But when we get to the bottom line here, about the only thing we can conclude with reasonable certainty is that gnu didn't look at the "theory" link in my previous post.

He probably thought the link was to something too technical, but the picture's actually from an article about how to use tin snips (av style) to crack pecans..

Incidentally, I actually do keep an old pair of Dutchmans next to the spare ink cartridges, because I recently broke a pair of kitchen (bone cutter) shears trying to get a fresh HP Inkjet cartridge out of their ridiculous package.

John

12 Jul 11 - 01:31 AM (#3185849)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: JohnInKansas

To answer gnu's question more specifically, I have seen left-handed simple tin snips, but it's possible the guy using them made his own. The couple of lefties I've seen had symmetrical handles, so in their case it was only the way the blades crossed that made them left-handed. Left handed (and left-handled) snips probably do exist as commercial items; but it's unlikely they would sell in sufficient volume to be in stock at any common retail tool outlets.

You might get help on it with a request for a special order through a hdw store that shows a decent tool selection. (That way the mfr guys will laugh at the dealer who wrote the order, instead of at you? Or you could use your real name on the order and just take the heat.)

My suggestion for the mid-sizes is that you pop in at Home Depot - or any other reasonably well-stocked hardware shop - and get one pair of Dutchmans (Compound Lever Aviation Metal Shears) in either right-cut or left-cut version, and after you try them out you'll want to decide which of your current set you want to move down to the bottom drawer where they're out of the way. The extra leverage, and some of the blade/jaw features, really do make them a lot more fun to use.

The Av Snips, incidentally, come in a whole bunch of "specials" like the one with double jaws that cuts a strip about 1/8" wide out of the middle of a piece of air conditioner duct - without significantly bending the adjacent metal on either side (so that you don't have to disassemble things to replace a bent area in a long run).

John

12 Jul 11 - 02:57 AM (#3185862)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: GUEST, topsie

Maybe the very old cricket bats had started off symetrical but the lower edges had worn away with much use.

12 Jul 11 - 04:52 AM (#3185905)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: Penny S.

Thinking about early bats, they had a pronounced curvature of some sort, and so maybe needed a leftie version. If people were allowed to play lefthanded back then, when writing was switched. It's odd, but my first thought was that modern ones would have an asymmetry 9n the thickness - but with Jon's exception, apparently not. There isa pub debate on the net on the subject, with not conclusion.

Penny

12 Jul 11 - 06:34 AM (#3185950)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: JohnInKansas

A few reference sites of Wiki ilk seem to agree that there's no such thing as a left-handed cricket bat, and multiple dealers offering "left handed cricket equipment" don't offer one.

There seems to be an implication that batting left or right is done for purposes of game strategy rather than to suit the handedness of the person using the bat. It is implied that all players should learn how to bat from either side. Most "Lessons on how to bat left handed" seem to start with unintelligible (to me) explanations of why and when you should switch from right to left for certain game situations.

This would imply that there is some sort of assymetry in how the playing field is laid out, or in some difference in preference for how players move left or right.

In circumstance other than cricket, many in the US observe that Brits in general are a bit "off-center" in certain respects, so those of us native to the US would be likely to easily accept that cricket fields (and players?) probably are mostly a bit cock-eyed.

John

12 Jul 11 - 06:36 AM (#3185952)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: MikeL2

hi

I played cricket for almost fifty years and when I first started there were definitely both left and right hand bats. As Jon said earlier the difference was the small cutout at the corner of the bat.

My son and grandsons still play and I note that my son still plays with a righthanded bat but my grandsons has "universal" ones.

Is this another sign of "progress" ????

Cheers

MikeL2

12 Jul 11 - 07:00 AM (#3185967)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: GUEST,Jon

Thanks Mike (and Penny, we are not talking about very early cricket bats).

Looking at bats now, it seems there is a lot more variation in the profiles of the bat there used to be (In say the late 70s there was a Gray Nicolls with a scoop out the back but that's the only one I remember that looked different to a "standard bat"). So usually a "universal bat" but with more options in terms of shape around?

I wonder how they make them these days. I've always thought of them as hand made but I wonder if CNC machining is used somehow.

12 Jul 11 - 09:26 AM (#3186027)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: MikeL2

hi Jon

Yes there is much more choice in the type and style 0f cricket bats these days.

I remember well the Gray Nichols scooped out bat. Didn't use it myself. I always used Gunn & Moore. Just a personal choice.

To answer you point about whether bats are massed produced or hand made, I guess the answer is both. Players who can afford it can have specifications eg weight & weight distribution, type & length of handle, types of shoulder and even left or right handed !!!

Certainly most professionals will have hand made bats and some club players will try them in attempts to improve their performances.

There is the old chestnut about the rich woman who returned a cricket bat to the shop saying that the bat was useless as her son had used it several times and had not managed to score any runs with it.

Cheers

MikeL2

12 Jul 11 - 10:32 AM (#3186076)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: Green Man

I play the Melodeon right handed and the guitar left handed along with the mandolin and any other stringed instrument. I play the harmonica both handed, so, am I right or left handed?

12 Jul 11 - 10:57 AM (#3186094)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: GUEST,leeneia

From what I read, people who are 100% left-handed are rare. You and I, Green Man, who use one hand or another for various tasks, are more common. However, we don't have a word for that.

We label a person lefthanded merely if she writes with her left hand. That's simplistic.

As for that tribe that's lefthanded and more violent, I don't believe it exists. Or if it does, we need to look at all the facts about it.

(Did you know that Eskimos do not have a large number of words for snow? Somebody made that up, and journalists have been quoting it for decades. It's probably the same for this convenient tribe.)

12 Jul 11 - 06:52 PM (#3186317)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: Rapparee

Go and seek a left-handed trumpet or trombone or any brass instrument (bugles and such excluded).

13 Jul 11 - 12:31 PM (#3186784)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: Penny S.

Here's the article about violence, the tribal variations.

Are lefties sinister?

There's a piece in Wikipedia as well.

As to the cricket field, the placing of the fielders varies according to how the bowler is expected to bowl and the batsman to deal with the ball, so does have a varying asymmetry.

And bat making, no reference to handedness.

Making bats.

13 Jul 11 - 02:52 PM (#3186898)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: GUEST,MikeL2

hi penny

Please don't think that I am being pedantic. The example of making a bat was of just one manufacturer.

If you Google "Talent Cricket Specialists younwill see that they do offer left-handed bats. <" Gray Nicolls Edge Pre - Prepared Cricket Bat".

I am going away for a few days so will not be around on Mudcat for a while.

Kind Regards

MikeL2

14 Jul 11 - 10:30 AM (#3187454)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: GUEST,leeneia

I read Penny's link. It is based on only two tribes, one in South America and one in Africa.

Presumably the author searched the literature until finding two tribes out of all those available that supported his/her prejudice.

I was amused by the parellel to boxing. I doubt very much if these poeple engage in conflict by standing up, man-to-man, and demanding a fair fight. No, skulking in the underbrush and throwing a spear (blow gun, rock from a sling) is lot more like it. In that case, handedness doesn't matter at all.

To me the interesting question is why does the South American tribe show 22% left-handedness. (How exactly do you determine handedness in unlettered people, anyway?)

14 Jul 11 - 03:04 PM (#3187627)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: GUEST,mg

Well, they still eat, comb their hair, throw things, stir pots. mg

14 Jul 11 - 04:27 PM (#3187679)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: Rapparee

Try this sometime:

1. Close one eye.
2. The one that remains open is your "dominant eye."
3. If your left eye is dominant, you would shoot (archery, rifles, blowguns) best left-handed.
4. This has no relation to your "strong hand" but rather to your eye-brain-hand coordination.

14 Jul 11 - 05:48 PM (#3187750)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: Penny S.

MikeL2, I wasn't trying to counter the Gray Nichols bat, just adding to what someone else posted about the making of bats with a link I had found interesting.

Penny

14 Jul 11 - 06:28 PM (#3187799)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: Penny S.

Leeneia, here's another link to reports on the paper. It mentions different tribes out of the nine studied. Apparently the study went further than that and did involve more than a literature search. I'm trying to find the original paper, but presumably it was peer reviewed. On the other hand, (oops, accidental, but I'll leave it) the link in the wikipedia article references doesn't go anywhere, so it might have been one of those things where scientists release stuff unreviewed to the press as part of their grant bid process. It seems that the study was related to the number of lefties in sports being larger than the proportion in the non-sporting population.

Another report

I don't think the idea was to say that lefties were more violent, but that a society which was more violent would favour lefties.

I would imagine that handedness would show up in pre-literate societies in craft activities as well as hunting and fighting. Any sort of making activity would need a dominant hand.

But one thing does bother me about the study, more than the high numbers of lefties in bellicose groups. The pacifist societies had far lower numbers than would be expected, and I wonder if those societies also have a strong pressure not to be lefthanded, with individuals learning to use their right hand rather than be ostracised. Most lefthanders can learn to use the right, as was shown in the case of handwriting in schools before the schools became enlightened. I don't like to think about the other possibility.

Penny

14 Jul 11 - 08:30 PM (#3187903)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: GUEST

Hotter than a whore in the electric chair...

Going thru three changes of clothes every day just to keep workin'... Set up a drying rack in the garage and just recycling...

Nasty...

B~

14 Jul 11 - 10:41 PM (#3187960)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: Crowhugger

«You and I, Green Man, who use one hand or another for various tasks, are more common. However, we don't have a word for that.»

The word I settled upon to describe it is "bidextrous."

15 Jul 11 - 09:57 AM (#3188224)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: GUEST,leeneia

Unless somebody spent hours and hours over a period of months and months and kept records while they were at it, they couldn't say whether a person in a nonliterate society is lefthanded or not.

When it comes to tasks, people cannot predict what hand they will use, and they may use one hand one time and the other hand another time. They may prefer the left hand for one task and the right for another, similar task.

For example, when I wore contact lenses, I washed them with my right hand and inserted them with my left. It was years before I even noticed that I was switching hands.

My husband, who I thought was the most right-handed guy in the world, demanded a left-handed mouse. One never knows, do one?

15 Jul 11 - 10:18 AM (#3188237)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: Rapparee

Well, as the song says "...that's the hand you use...well, never mind."

16 Jul 11 - 02:15 AM (#3188628)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: JohnInKansas

Has ayone seen an explanation for the several languages that are written right-to-left? Is there some tradition for the "scholars" to be (or affect being) left handed?

A couple of eastern(?) languages are commonly written top-to-bottom in columns, but all of those that I've seen "explained" are also right-to-left when going from one column to the next. Any explanations?

Da Vinci wrote most of his stuff in Latin but reversed (right-to-left) and the common explanation was that it was "a code" to make it harder for anyone to read and steal his secrets. I'd suspect the real reason was that he was a leftie, but I don't think I've ever seen an "authoritative" comment on it. (?) Maybe he was actually dyslexic, since he seemed to think out of both sides of his brain (and outside his head sometimes?).

John

18 Jul 11 - 02:07 PM (#3190153)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: Penny S.

I've been using my sewing machine this weekend, and realised I was using it lefthanded, according to the picture in the instruction book. That shows the right hand nearest the user, feeding the fabric under the foot, while the left hand moves it away behind the needle. I do it the opposite way. But then, I learned on a hand-turned machine, and my right hand was otherwise engaged. You can probably tell people who learned that way from those who learned on electric machines by the way they use their hands.

Penny

19 Jul 11 - 11:06 AM (#3190677)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: GUEST,Stringsinger

I've heard that there is a correlation with being left-handed and left-eyed and vice versa. Pick up a camera or a piece of paper with a hole in it and bring it quickly to your face. Which eye is used? Does this correlate with your strong hand? Sometimes, when one is right-eyed and left-handed or vice-versa, this is called "cross dominance".
Some psychologists say that this will create problems in behavior.
Don't know if that is true. Ambidextrous people seem to fare all right.

19 Jul 11 - 11:39 AM (#3190709)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: GUEST, topsie

I have heard that there is an association between "cross-dominance" and dyslexia.

19 Jul 11 - 11:47 AM (#3190720)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: GUEST,Jon

Just tried the camera. I (left handed) seem to use my left eye. I'm not sure it's to do with eye dominance (and trying holding a finger up and closing each eye seems to suggest I'm right eye dominant) though.

It just feels more natural/comfortable for me to hold that way and I'd guess has more to do with handedness.

19 Jul 11 - 11:53 AM (#3190726)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: GUEST,Jon

And a further thought...

Sometimes, I debate "handedness" in the sense of using a better hand. With some things, eg. playing a guitar (which I do right handed) or using a cricket bat (which I would left handed - although oddly enough to me bat and guitar both feel like holding an object the same way round if that makes sense) but one of (I suppose) position/orientation.

19 Jul 11 - 12:32 PM (#3190745)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: JohnInKansas

The "accepted" test for eye dominance requires a couple of steps.

The most common instruction is that you hold up your thumb at arms length and with both eyes open, line the thumb up with a distant object. Then close one eye.

After you close one eye, if the thumb is still lined up you closed the non-dominant eye. If the thumb/object alignment "jumps" to a different alignment you have closed the dominant eye.

This test is almost universally taught to all precision handgun shooters, since aligning with "the wrong eye" will cause "flyers" that may miss the target by a very large distance.

Beginning shooters are often taught to "block the non-dominant eye," with an eye patch or some other device to avoid alignment accidents, but once using the "correct" eye consistently is learned, blocking of the other eye is usually discarded, although a very few experienced shooters may continue to "patch" if their dominance is very weak.

Most experienced handgunners shoot with both eyes open, but consistently "form the sight picture" from the dominant image.

The degree of dominance is variable, and I've known a couple of people who claimed that one eye was "usually dominant" but that the other eye sometimes "took over" under different conditions. (Usually fatigue or eye-strain related?)

A few people have claimed that one eye is dominant for distant viewing, but the other takes over for near objects. In the one or two such persons from whom I've heard this claim, the problem went away after they got new (properly prescribed?) corrective lenses in their glasses.

Good handgun shooters with cross-dominant vision are fairly rare, but probably in about the same percentages as for the general population.

I've known a couple of "experts" who fired right-handed using their left eye with no noticeable difficulty. I've seen no (competent) reports of any accepted theories that cross-dominance is associated with any maladjustment or other effects of personality.

The somewhat faddish popularity of "3-d" pictures and posters, in which you attempt to "hyperfocus" on scrambled images to "see" the two separate images as a "sterieo picture" has been implicated as a cause of deterioration in vision, "damaging" eye strain, and in a few cases some (probably temporary?) psychoses. There was an appearance of "popular art" of this kind ca. early 1950s, and I've seen a couple of advanced text books that attempted to use the "feature" to print three-dimensional graphs of "electron trajectories" and the like, but the practice didn't last long and appears to have faded due to complaints from ophthalmologist and psychiatrist associations who made credible claims that it was being observed to cause harm.

There have been a couple of cycles of reappearances of the 3-d posters/pictures. It appears that only people with "weak eye-dominance" see the 3-d images easily, hence easier visibility for people with "young eyes" (not necessarily related to the persons' ages). During the earlier appearance, "wedge lens" glasses could sometimes be found to assist others, but I've seen no such aids during subsequent cycles of the fad.

John

19 Jul 11 - 01:30 PM (#3190783)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: GUEST, topsie

I tried the test for eye dominance and found it impossible - if I focus on the distant object I see two thumbs, and if I focus on the thumb I see two of the distant object. How distant does the object have to be?

20 Jul 11 - 05:18 AM (#3191229)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: JohnInKansas

For most people an object 100 yards away is "distant enough." If you're unable to pick a thumb (one is clearer than the other) when focusing that far away, it's likely that neither eye is sufficiently dominant for your brain to have learned to ignore the other image - or that your distant vision is poor enough that you're not really focusing on the far object^* - just "blindly pointing at it".(?)

When you focus farther away, everything up close is seen in "double vision," and if your brain doesn't "filter it" to remove one or the other of the two pictures confusion is likely.

(Perhaps we should suggest that nobody should offer "that explains a lot about topsie" but I'm not gonna say anything.)

The same thing happens when you focus on something up close. Everything farther away is seen in double vision, but most people adapt so as to ignore (or just "blur out") the parts of their field of view where the parallax effect is too significant for comfort.

If your eyes are so well matched that neither eye shows easily observable dominance, it shouldn't really cause any significant problem as long as you're aware that you may need to close one eye for some tasks that require "critical focus."

For the above cited pistol shooting, it is absolutely essential that your point of focus must be on the two sights, front and rear, of the pistol. Those two sights must be aligned with each other within about 0.001 inches or less to hit the center ring on the target. There's no problem at all if the target is nothing but a blur, because even a blur has a center and that's what you're trying to hit.

A situation you're perhaps more likely to encounter, where suppressing (closing) one eye may aid in getting the sharpest possible focus with the other eye might be something like threading the needle on your sewing machine. With one eye shut, you lose the aid of any "stereo depth perception" but may gain enough from seeing a single image more clearly so that you can hit the hole in the needle more accurately. (For hand stitching, you don't put the thread through the hole in the needle. You hold the thread up and put the needle on it - as I'm sure you've been taught. A much easier task.)

^* As people age and their "depth of field" diminishes, it's common to prescribe lenses that actually set the maximum distance to which you can focus at about 2/3 of the way to the farthest thing you might need to see with some clarity, to take advantage of what's called the "hyperfocal point." Focused at 2/3 of the way (approximately) to the farthest point that's significant gives a camera the maximum possible depth of field, so that the largest part of what's beyond the focus, and the largest portion of what's in front of it, are "least blurred." While this (sort of) works for people, in most cases the camera only has one eye while we (mostly) have two, so "brain power" is still necessary to help us "ignore what doesn't fit."

(Maybe you're experiencing a deficit in your "ability to be sufficiently ignorant"?)

John

20 Jul 11 - 06:23 AM (#3191265)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: GUEST, topsie

Thanks - I'll try to be more ignorant (and less confused?) in future.

20 Jul 11 - 07:52 AM (#3191306)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: Deckman

I thought I'd weigh in on this thread with a rather serious, and I suspect common, problem. My father was a lefty. I was born a lefty, yet when I entered grade school in 1943, it was the accepted practice that those children who reached for the pencil with their left hands, were somehow defective. Being only six, I couldn't dispute this.

By the time I was in the third grade, and under the "teaching" of Mrs. Spaulding (she taught penmanship) I knew that I was quite a defective person. I knew this because she told me so every day. She said I couldn't "hold a pencil right" (write?), 'nor could I write well.

For most of my life I lived with serious writers block. I knew, early on that I couldn't write!

Fast forward to about 18 years ago, when my life long friend Walt Robertson passed away. Mark Moss, of Sing Out magazine, contacted me and asked me to write Walt's obituary. I totally freaked out! WHAT ... ME WRITE?

After three weeks of pure hell, I finally submitted 300 words that were published unchanged. That was a pivitol moment in my life.

Today, I find myslef writing a great deal. And the positive response I receive is most gratifying. Take THAT Mrs. Spaulding! bob(deckman)nelson

20 Jul 11 - 01:05 PM (#3191468)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: JohnInKansas

topsie

I do like Ghandi's mention (paraphrased) that "teasing must be limited to those you respect." I hoped you wouldn't mind.

John

20 Jul 11 - 01:29 PM (#3191477)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: GUEST, topsie

John, no of course I didn't mind!

Next time we have a clear night I'll try holding out my thumb in front of the moon[s].

21 Jul 11 - 05:32 AM (#3191871)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: Rumncoke

I'm right eyed and fairly left handed, and somewhat dyslexic - though not diagnosed, as it didn't exist when I was at school.

I found that some teachers did not believe it existed - I was with a Reception class teacher who was complaining about having to do a test for dyslexia on her pupils and did not believe me when I said that I could not pick out the matching card from the third set - the first two were of things I could remember, the third were too abstract.

She was really quite angry with me. I was in my twenties then. How a little dot just four years old would cope with the experience I can't imaging.

Anne Croucher

Dorset England

21 Jul 11 - 09:35 AM (#3191960)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: GUEST,leeneia

Interesting! Thanks for the account, Anne.

21 Jul 11 - 10:33 AM (#3191988)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: GUEST, topsie

I'm wondering whether there could be a conflict between the choice of eye according to right or left handedness/eyedness and the choice of image according to which lens gives the clearest picture.

22 Jul 11 - 12:32 AM (#3192430)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: GUEST,leeneia

I'm sure that I am lefthanded because my right eye only sees things in focus for about six inches. It was such a useless view of the world that my left eye and then my left hand took over.

22 Jul 11 - 06:41 PM (#3193091)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: JohnInKansas

Leenia -

There is a vision defect called "lazy eye syndrome" in which one eye doesn't focus with a view consistent with the other, and the "better" eye becomes so dominant that the other one just sort of "gives up."

A treatment a century ago, and at least until perhaps the 50s in some parts of the US was to put a patch over the good eye to force the weaker one to work, on the theory that it might "catch up." Although that treatment apparently had some success, it apparently worked best for the very young and I don't believe it's used much any more.

One "explanation" I've heard of claims that "lazy eye" is usually associated with a "convergence error." The eye must adjust the lens to focus at a certain distance, and both eyes must, ideally, focus at the same distance in order to both see the same object. In addition, for a near object each eyeball must "rotate inward" to "point at" the object.

If the two eyes are focused to the same distance but are "pointing in different directions," the view is obviously going to be messed up. If both eyeballs point at the same object, but focus at different distances, the result is pretty much the same. The "convergence angle" between the directions the two eyes point must match the focus distance in order for the two views to be consistent.

A consistent "convergence error" might sometimes be corrected with a "wedge lens" that bends the direction for one eye to bring the two views together, and claims have been seen that this can help recover a weakened "lazy eye." It's been far too long since I've looked at this subject though to be able to guess whether that's still considered a viable approach to the problem, and I certainly have no way to guess whether your "eyeball discrepancies" are in any way related.

Nearly everyone has some difference in focal range of their two eyes, but an extreme difference suggests a need to look at whether there's some subtle cause for which some corrective action is available.

I would presume that you do get regular examinations and consultations from a qualified vision professional, of course.(?)

John

23 Jul 11 - 04:49 AM (#3193344)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: Deckman

John ... you are exactly correct. As a youngster, some 100 years ago, I had a "lazy eye." The treatment back in the 1940's was "eye excersizes (spelling?). I would follow my finger tip, and other objects, for hours a day.

Today, I wear "prism lenses" in my eyeglasses, which seem to work perfectly for me. CHEERS, bob(deckman)nelson

23 Jul 11 - 07:21 AM (#3193397)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: JohnInKansas

Deckman -

I possibly would never have heard of the lazy eye problem except that my sister wore a patch on one eye for about a year, and then on the other eye for a few months 'cause they decided they'd "overcorrected." I was only 5 or 6 y.o. then, but it did make me "aware" enough to notice comments about it later as treatment seemed to change some.

Much later, I was acquainted with "an elder" who had no treatment, and perhaps as a consequence was very nearly blind in the eye that "refused to point where he was looking."

Unlike for a jackrabbit, being able to look in two different directions at the same time doesn't seem to be a very useful thing for us peoples.

John

23 Jul 11 - 01:43 PM (#3193632)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: GUEST,leeneia

Hi, John. Yes, I have a great eye doctor.

My eye problems were ignored till I was way past the age when anything could be done about them. I was doing well in school, so nothing could be wrong - that was my parent's attitude. They were wrong.

I think the best thing that happened to my weak eye was wearing contact lenses for many years. They do a better job than glasses, and when my weak eye started seeing better, my brain begin to pay more attention to what it was reporting. It was biofeedback, I believe.

With good glasses I see pretty well. I also amaze my friends by taking my glasses off and seeing remarkably tiny things with my weak eye.

One effect of the problem is that I'm left-handed. I write with my hand curved towards me, and the books say that that is the mark of a person whose brain is right-handed but who writes with the left. I think that anybody who writes like that should be allowed to do it. The brain knows what it needs.

23 Jul 11 - 11:03 PM (#3194028)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: JohnInKansas

The writing position you describe, if I visualize it correctly from your description, is one of a couple of positions taught to lefties "back when ..." ... (by the relatively few enlightened enough not to try to force them to change).

Writing with a "wet ink" pen, or even with early ballpoints, it was about the only way a left handed person could avoid dragging the hand through what was written before it had time to dry enough to resist smudging and becoming illegible. The positions that some call "more normal," have the same smudging problem even with a pencil, if the lead isn't fairly "hard." The "curled" position is also well suited to being able to see what you've just written, without having to move the "pen" (or whatever) away from where you'll continue writing.

The reason they were taught is because they were close to what was "natural" for the kids trying to learn worked out as "the best way to get it done."

Your books were probably written by imature illiterate children (i.e. any people under 50, who grew up with "progressive" education and hence didn't learn much?) who don't know any traditional lore very well.

Maybe they should get out of education and take up a religion calling where "explanations that aren't" are more universally loved and appreciated.

John

24 Jul 11 - 05:54 PM (#3194524)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: skipy

When I was in the Mob (RAF) I had a left handed respirator, otherwise I could not aim a 762 as the gas canister got in the way.
Skipy

25 Jul 11 - 10:26 AM (#3194910)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: GUEST,leeneia

I'm sure nobody taught me to hold my hand the way I do. I do it because it feels right. (When I'm not in a hurry, I have very nice handwriting.) Modern pens, which dry instantly, are a real blessing, of course.

Early on, baffling remarks were made to the effect that "It's backwards." So I watched carefully when we learned writing. When we started writing, the teacher and all the other kids picked up their pencils, moved to the edge of the paper across from their hands, and started writing. So I did the same.

Later my mother told me that she and my father asked an experienced teacher about my mirror writing, and she said, "Just leave her alone. She'll turn it around on her own." And I did.

25 Jul 11 - 10:33 AM (#3194917)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: Rapparee

Let's just come out and admit it: being left-handed is the mark of Satan and yer all his minions.

Drop 'round, minions are more fun than angels.

25 Jul 11 - 01:19 PM (#3195065)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: JohnInKansas

Later my mother told me that she and my father asked an experienced teacher about my mirror writing, and she said, "Just leave her alone. She'll turn it around on her own." And I did.

So you were smarter than Leonardo? He never turned his around. Of course there were a lot fewer people (who could read OR write) around to argue with him in his day (and maybe he wasn't much interested in anything "they" had to say?).

John

25 Jul 11 - 04:00 PM (#3195199)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: Penny S.

I can do mirror with either hand. Used to do it on postcards to avoid the postie reading it - not that anything was inappropriate. I was writing to a leftie, so knew the recipient would be able to manage it.

What I can't do is write different things at the same time with opposite hands, which I have heard of.

Penny

25 Jul 11 - 04:12 PM (#3195214)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: GUEST, topsie

Writing different things at the same time using both hands is said to have been a favourite trick of Branwell Brontë.

26 Jul 11 - 08:36 AM (#3195719)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: Penny S.

Maybe if he had written one thing with one hand he could have got published too!

Penny

26 Jul 11 - 10:16 AM (#3195793)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: MikeL2

Hi

I am a complete right hander at everything.....er except when I wear long sleeved shirts I find it easier to button/unbutton the right arm with my left hand than the other way round !!!

Is that strange????

Cheers

Mikel2

26 Jul 11 - 02:44 PM (#3196002)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: GUEST,leeneia

And how do you cut the nails on your right hand, put a watch on your right wrist, scratch a mosquito bite on your right arm, or rub your right elbow?

If you do any of that with your right hand, then it would be strange.

27 Jul 11 - 10:38 AM (#3196574)
Subject: RE: BS: Left-Handism
From: MikeL2

hi lennia

Of course I do all those things with my left hand.......but not as well as when I use the right hand on the left arm. But buttoning the right arm with my left comes easier than the others......!!!???

My wife says that I am just awkward....lol

Regards

Mike