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28 Aug 11 - 05:46 AM (#3213881) Subject: BS: Fossilised phrases From: MGM·Lion Phrases and locutions often become fossilised. Football reporters have talked of 'hitting the woodwork' when a shot rebounds off the goalpost or crossbar for over 100 years; and tv sports commentators still employ the cliché, even though the goals have not been made of wood but of tubular metal for — how long? 50 years? Many people still refer to entering the number when making a phone call as 'dialling', even though digital keyboards have replaced dials on phones for at least the past 30 years. Surely numbers are 'punched' these days, rather than 'dialled'? {Fess up: which do you say? FYI, my recent BT Phone Book still refers to "your dialling needs"!, although 'call' has replaced 'dial' in most instructions!} Any other such pertinacious obsolete linguistic survivals that you have observed? ~Michael~ |
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28 Aug 11 - 06:56 AM (#3213893) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: WalkaboutsVerse "Hobson's Choice" - http://walkaboutsverse.webs.com/#54 |
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28 Aug 11 - 07:49 AM (#3213912) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: Dead Horse I still 'Pull the chain' after a visit to the loo. |
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28 Aug 11 - 08:01 AM (#3213917) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: JennieG Someone who goes on and on about a subject is said to be "like a cracked record"....."like a cracked CD" isn't the same! Cheers JennieG |
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28 Aug 11 - 08:23 AM (#3213930) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: johncharles I listen to my "wireless" every morning. |
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28 Aug 11 - 09:33 AM (#3213960) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: McGrath of Harlow I've still got a chain. |
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28 Aug 11 - 10:50 AM (#3213996) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: MGM·Lion Good responses all, for which thanks ~~ except I can't see where Hobson's Choice, interesting a phrase as it is historically ~~ an antomomasiac eponym-metaphor based on the early C17 Cambridge University carrier's practice in his horse-hiring sideline of only offering any hirer the horse in the nearest stall to the entrance ~~ fits into the subject of the thread, WAV. And 'wireless' perhaps rather a somewhat obsolete synonym of 'radio' than a fossilised survival of a superseded technology: even when digital, radios are still wire-less in that sense, surely? ~M~ |
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28 Aug 11 - 12:47 PM (#3214036) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: WalkaboutsVerse ..?..from first carriage to first cab off the rank, MtheGM. |
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28 Aug 11 - 04:23 PM (#3214125) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: Gurney 'As the crow flies..' Do they really fly like a pigeon? |
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28 Aug 11 - 04:36 PM (#3214129) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: WalkaboutsVerse Do millers still feel the ground-grain between finger and thumb, before making adjustments, as in "rule of thumb"? |
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28 Aug 11 - 04:48 PM (#3214134) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: EBarnacle Rule if thumb defines the legal width a man could use to beat his wife or child up into the 19th century. |
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28 Aug 11 - 05:11 PM (#3214150) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: GUEST,Paul Burke How long is it since you had to spend a penny? |
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28 Aug 11 - 06:22 PM (#3214187) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: GUEST,Allen In Oz " Mad as a two bob watch " AD |
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28 Aug 11 - 07:05 PM (#3214219) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: Richard Bridge "Willy nilly" - the slightly corrupt transliteration of the Latin "volens nolens". "Blighty touch" "Willy" - again from the Latin "Membrum virile" "Mad as a hatter" - how long since top hat makers used mercury? |
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28 Aug 11 - 08:02 PM (#3214242) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: GUEST,Paul Burke Drive a coach and four through the law... (yawn) The legal profession is full of such anachronisms. A face like the back of a bus... now you won't understand that until you go to a well- stocked transport museum, and actually see the back of a really old bus. Avoid cliches like the plague. |
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29 Aug 11 - 02:32 AM (#3214335) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: Genie How about referring to someone/something as a "carbon copy" of someone/something else? |
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29 Aug 11 - 02:39 AM (#3214336) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: Genie Another couple that we still use, most probably without having a clue as to what they really mean, are: 1. "hoist by his own petard" -- a petard was a small charge used to light the charge that would set off a cannon. If the operator did not get out of the way fast enough after setting the charge, he would be sent into the air by the exposion of his own petard. 2. "hold someone's feet to the fire" -- (I actually cannot bring myself to use this metaphor ever since I discovered its origin/meaning.) During the Inquisition, an oft used means of torture was to literally hold the soles of the accused's bare feet against a flame until they would "confess" in order to get the pain to stop. It was not about making someone follow through on a promise or work hard to accomplish a goal or accept responsibility; it was torture, plain and simple, employed to obtain a pre-ordained response. |
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29 Aug 11 - 07:23 AM (#3214419) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: Bee-dubya-ell Golf clubs for long play are still referred to as "woods" despite having been made almost exclusively of various non-wood materials for a number of years. |
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29 Aug 11 - 09:33 AM (#3214466) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: GUEST,leeneia 'crank the engine' when engines have not had cranks since the era of the Model T Ford |
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29 Aug 11 - 12:16 PM (#3214569) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: Bee-dubya-ell Televisions no longer use cathode ray tube technology, but they'll probably still be called "boob tubes" for years. Somehow, "boob flatscreen" just doesn't work. |
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29 Aug 11 - 12:37 PM (#3214586) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: Richard Bridge Actually, a petard was a small bomb used to blow up gates and walls when breaching fortifications. The derivation is the same as "peter" - to fart, in French. |
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29 Aug 11 - 01:03 PM (#3214597) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: Jim Dixon There are several theories about the origin of "rule of thumb" and I don't think the matter is settled. My favorite theory is the one described in Gulliver's Travels, by Jonathan Swift, where the narrator describes how the Lilliputians made a shirt for him: "The sempstresses took my measure as I lay on the ground, one standing at my neck, and another at my midleg, with a strong cord extended, that each held by the end, while the third measured the length of the cord with a rule of an inch long. Then they measured my right thumb, and desired no more; for by a mathematical computation, that twice round the thumb is once round the wrist, and so on to the neck and the waist, and by the help of my old shirt, which I displayed on the ground before them for a pattern, they fitted me exactly." |
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30 Aug 11 - 05:25 AM (#3215039) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: Keith A of Hertford Telephones are no longer fitted with bells, but they still ring. |
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30 Aug 11 - 07:50 AM (#3215075) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: Fossil Music is no longer trapped on analogue wax or vinyl, but some of it is still "groovy", and the musicians are still "in the groove". |
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30 Aug 11 - 07:51 AM (#3215077) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: Fossil And the above post was a prime example of Fossil-ised phraseology! |
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30 Aug 11 - 08:27 AM (#3215086) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: MGM·Lion "Groove - In the groove" now surely rather out of date slang: when did you last hear anyone say them? Not quite like "dialling" for punching a phone keyboard or "woodwork" for the metal frame of a goal or "carbon copy" for strong resemblance, all of which remain idiomatic but perpetuate defunct concepts. ~M~ |
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30 Aug 11 - 12:44 PM (#3215240) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: Jim Dixon The term "hang up" (to terminate a phone call) probably comes from a time when telephone receivers literally hung from a bracket, like this. A lot of phrases come from the time of sailing ships, such as "to know the ropes," "three sheets to the wind," etc. I've got a booklet-dictionary somewhere that lists dozens of these, but I wouldn't know where to find it now. "A flash in the pan" is a mishap involving a flintlock pistol or musket. |
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30 Aug 11 - 01:12 PM (#3215262) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: Stringsinger Here's a few. "At the end of the day" "Moving forward" "Conspiracy theory" "Point of fact" (British) Check your local mainstream media pundits for more. |
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30 Aug 11 - 01:18 PM (#3215264) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: Jim Dixon The term "album," meaning a collection of recorded songs or tunes sold as a unit, has survived right through the era of LPs and CDs, but it previously meant a set of several 78-rpm records. Each record had its own heavy paper sleeve, and the sleeves were bound together along one edge, like the pages of a book, and the whole thing had a cover, like a book—or an album. People still speak of "sleeve notes" although CDs usually don't have paper sleeves. Today, when part of a song is repeated, we call it a "chorus," even when only one person sings it, but in old sheet music, you often see that the verse is arranged for one voice while the "chorus" is arranged for several voices singing in harmony. This fits with the older meaning of chorus: a choir. |
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30 Aug 11 - 05:29 PM (#3215459) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: Mrrzy Yes, I wonder what would better serve email than cc for carbon copy - how about just c, for copy? I still use album for record. I mean, for CD. Or whatever. I use Record, too, apparently... And I had another one in mind when I opened the thread, but it's gone now... |
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30 Aug 11 - 05:48 PM (#3215481) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: dick greenhaus In New York, at least they still call 'em ash cans. and "It's your nickel (or dime)". still pops up. I still encounter "hit the bricks" from time to time. "Popular Music" is either fossilized or an oxymoron |
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30 Aug 11 - 08:13 PM (#3215569) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: Joe_F A similar case is the use of "footage" for video that is recorded on various media that could not possibly be measured in feet. Virtual sprocket holes. |
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31 Aug 11 - 06:01 PM (#3216165) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: RangerSteve People still dial phone numbers, although the dial is obsolete. |
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31 Aug 11 - 07:45 PM (#3216222) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: GUEST People still dial phone numbers, although the dial is obsolete. Indeed, though some weeks ago I was trying to download a major software update at a store in a Designer Outlet centre near York (UK). They had a broadband client installed, but it connected and immediately disconnected. I hooked a phone to the DSL splitter, dialled my home telephone number and heard the unmistakable "whirr, click, click, click" of a rotary telephone exchange. I suggested the store owner went next door but one to the British Telecom outlet and pounded the counter until BT made their line compatible with all the goodies they had sold the store. As an aside, in 1983 when there were still plenty of dial-up telephones around, we used to play a nasty joke on the parents of a friend whose home telephone number ended in 7777. "Hello! No, Mr. Kingston, you don't know me but my finger's stuck in the dial!" |
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31 Aug 11 - 10:33 PM (#3216303) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: Mrrzy And I think you can still "drop a dime" on somebody when you tattle, but phones haven't cost a dime in a long time and besides, there pretty much aren't any phone booths left. Wonder where Clark Kent changes these days... "Feather in your cap" also - I wear hats but not too many other people do. I like rotary phones. I wish I could find a phone that still rings, too. |
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01 Sep 11 - 12:34 AM (#3216330) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: Jim Dixon All is not lost. You can download a "ring tone" that sounds like an old-fashioned phone ringing. |
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01 Sep 11 - 04:50 AM (#3216380) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: Keith A of Hertford CC does not stand for carbon copy. It is one of those things like pp for pages. |
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01 Sep 11 - 03:14 PM (#3216622) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: Mrrzy cc used to stand for carbon copy, back when they had them. It was what you typed, on a typewriter, to show for whom you were making copies, and then the people getting the carbon copies didn't wonder why they were reading something addressed to someone else. So it still does in the mind of everyone old enough to have known it when it meant that. It's probably pronounced see-see now, so younger people don't realize the connection. Also, my kid said someone "called it in all year" and I thought, I bet they email it in nowadays, those journalists who don't actually GO to the races or the opera or the riot or the council meetings or whatever. I hadn't heard that phrase since I was a little'n, dad was a newspaper reporter back in the day. Before I was born but he liked some of the phraseology. |
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01 Sep 11 - 04:28 PM (#3216656) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: GUEST,Michael Ah, carbon copies, yellow, blue, green 'flimsies', like sheets of tissue paper, and the further down the pile you were the fainter they were! Mike |
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01 Sep 11 - 04:30 PM (#3216657) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: Michael A guest in my own home?, bring your own cookies. Mike |
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01 Sep 11 - 09:43 PM (#3216810) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: Jim Dixon Why is the graphite in a pencil called "lead"? Did pencils once actually contain lead? If so, that could be an example of a fossilization. But I really have no idea. |
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01 Sep 11 - 09:46 PM (#3216811) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: Mrrzy Yes, they were. Good thought... |
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02 Sep 11 - 04:43 AM (#3216915) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: GUEST,CrazyEddie "Ah, carbon copies, yellow, blue, green 'flimsies', like sheets of tissue paper, and the further down the pile you were the fainter they were!" No, that was the scientific marvel that was known as <"no carbon required" paper> the replaced carbon copies. Carbon paper had an oily-feeling coating on one side. You put it between 2 sheets of normal paper, wrote (or typed) on the top sheet, and the carbon coaring made a copy on the lower sheet. |
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02 Sep 11 - 05:18 AM (#3216927) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: Michael True Eddie, but even with carbon paper, the further down the pile, the less pressure on the carbon and thus fainter copies. By the bye I still occasionally use a receipt book with 'proper'carbon paper in. Mike |
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02 Sep 11 - 05:29 AM (#3216930) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: GUEST,Arnie 'Happy as a sandboy' is one of my favourite phrases. I've looked this one up in the past and the explanation appeals to me! |
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02 Sep 11 - 08:10 AM (#3216995) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: Jim Dixon Never heard of "happy as a sandboy." Never heard of "sandboy." OK, I just found out that a sandboy is a boy who sold sand, which I assume is an obsolete occupation. But why should a sandboy be happier than most? We have a similar expression "happy as a clam" which always seemed rather surreal to me. Why should anyone think a clam is happy? But I just discovered that the original expression was "happy as a clam at high tide." Now that makes sense. |
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02 Sep 11 - 08:36 AM (#3217006) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: Michael Well Jim, "Who liveth so merry in all this land As doth the poor widdow that selleth the sand? And ever she singeth as I can guesse, Will you buy any sand, any sand, mistress?" So there must have been some pleasure that we wot not of in the occupation. Mike |
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02 Sep 11 - 11:30 AM (#3217106) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: GUEST,raredance "in the groove" is still heard frequently in baseball referring either to a batter on a hitting streak or a pitcher throwing a lot of strikes. I had been under the impression (misinformed?) that "cc" formerly carbon copy now referred to a courtesy copy which is public as compared to a blind copy (bc) which is not. "at the end of the day" is perhaps more overused than fossilized. I still have one most every day. |
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02 Sep 11 - 12:42 PM (#3217147) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: Bee-dubya-ell US But I don't blame them. Think about it from a songwriter's standpoint. A line about a fifth of Jack Daniels is way more poetic than one about 750 ml of Jack Daniels. |
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02 Sep 11 - 03:11 PM (#3217218) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: fat B****rd Are pigs really happy in shit? |
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02 Sep 11 - 04:08 PM (#3217234) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: Q (Frank Staplin) "point in fact" = "the fact of the matter is": both translate as "in my opinion." I still look in the icebox rather than the fridge, although I was a wee one when my parents last had one. I go to the store for a bottle of milk, although for years it has been sold here in waxed cartons. And I ask for a quart when the measure is liters (er, litres. Is it butter or buttre?). Grocery stores here in Canada still have scales that weigh in pounds as well as grams, for which I am thankful. |
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02 Sep 11 - 04:49 PM (#3217251) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: Genie How about "tickling the ivories" as a phrase for playing the piano? Yes, I know some vintage pianos have ivory keys, but the vast majority of pianos don't. And, Fat B****d, I've always heard it as "happy as a pig in SLOP"--which pigs do seem to be genuinely happy in--, not "...as a pig in shit." |
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02 Sep 11 - 05:04 PM (#3217257) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: Genie Interesting to be reminded that record "albums" were originally individual 78s bound together like the pages of a photo album. But once the term came to mean "a collection of songs on recording" -- as distinct from a "single" -- I think it applied equally to a vinyl disc, a cassette, or a CD. There's nothing about the term "album" that suggests wax or vinyl, any more than the term "photo album" refers to paper and not to digital formats. @leeneia [['crank the engine' when engines have not had cranks since the era of the Model T Ford]] Even more out of sync with current technology is the use of the phrase "Crank it" to mean "Turn the volume (on a radio or CD player, etc.) up very high." |
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02 Sep 11 - 07:06 PM (#3217325) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: Shanghaiceltic 3 square meals a day Trying to get a quart into a pint pot. In the pink...wherever did that come from? When I was in the RN we had a plethora of sayings we frequently used, most if not all referred to things connected to ships of sail not modern warships. Gone by the board Waisters (unskilled crew who were not allowed aloft) Brought up short (would still be used today) Lower deck lawyer 9 sheets to the wind |
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03 Sep 11 - 05:23 AM (#3217482) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: Doug Chadwick cc used to stand for carbon copy ........ .... It's probably pronounced see-see now, so younger people don't realize the connection. I am far from young but I have only just found out the origin of "cc" by reading this thread, even though I have seen and used it many times. Some of us are slow learners! DC |
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08 Sep 11 - 06:58 PM (#3220347) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: Genie @ Richard Bridge [["Willy nilly" - the slightly corrupt transliteration of the Latin "volens nolens".]] It may come from that same Latin phrase, but I thought "willy nilly" was a slight corruption (as in mumbling) of the phrase "Will ye, nil ye," as was used in Shakespeare's "The Taming Of The Shrew" (meaning "whether you like it or not"). Genie |
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08 Sep 11 - 07:46 PM (#3220366) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: Dave MacKenzie "3 square meals a day" I only ever have 2 nowadays, and I'm unlikely to have slicing (Lorne) sausage more than once! |
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08 Sep 11 - 08:01 PM (#3220369) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: EBarnacle Citroens had cranks [mine always worked.] through at least the 70's. They were used to help set the timing and spark gap as well as to start the engine, when needed. Unlike the model T and many others, there was a pawl to keep it from spinning once the engine fired. |
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08 Sep 11 - 09:37 PM (#3220401) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: Jim Dixon How did "nine to five" come to mean a standard working day? Nobody I know actually works nine to five. Nine to five wouldn't even be a full eight hours unless (a) you skipped lunch, or (b) your lunch break was considered part of your working day, and you were paid for it—neither of which is standard practice where I live (in Minnesota). A standard day here is 8 a.m. to 4:30 p.m., with a half-hour break for lunch, for which you don't get paid. Thus you get paid for 8 hours. |
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09 Sep 11 - 11:59 AM (#3220673) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: Mrrzy I think the 9-5 thing is American. I often worked 9-5 when in offices, and got a half-hour for lunch. But I was not at the time paid by the hour. Great song, BTW, from the movie. Just reread above, Minnesota is in the US the last time I looked, so maybe it's an East Coast thing? What about "room and board" - are there still boarding houses? My dad used to say that the board was to sleep on. Where DID the board in boarding house/school from, and is it the same as boarding a ship? And what IS a square meal - all four food groups? back when they were, I think, meat veg starch sweets? (I know, they are really coffee, chocolate, lunch and dinner, or something, I can never remember the last two!) Also: when did "the carrot on the stick" (a reward held out of reach to motivate the recalcitrant) become "the carrot AND the stick" (hold the reward in one hand and threaten punishment for inaction with the other)? (Oops - thread creep - sorry - but I've been wondering about that.) |
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13 Sep 11 - 09:58 AM (#3222494) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: Jim Dixon Mrzzy: Thanks for your insight. After pondering this a bit, I have come to the conclusion, you must be right, it IS an east-coast thing. Which leads to the incidental observation that while we in the central time zone are going to work at 8 a.m., people in the eastern time zone are going to work simultaneously—except they call it 9 a.m. I suppose there's a historical reason for that. Maybe it has to do with the development of the telegraph or railroads. Our TV schedules are linked in the same way. What is called 7 o'clock news on the east coast is called 6 o'clock news in the Midwest, but we see it simultaneously. And that solves one problem for me: I used to wonder how people on the east coast could watch, say, Jay Leno (and before that, Johnny Carson, Jack Paar, etc.) until 1 a.m. without being dead tired the next day. Well, naturally, they don't have to be at work until 9! Now, as to quitting time. It seems east-coasters get off at 5, which is our 4, while we have to work another half-hour. How the hell did THAT custom get established? |
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13 Sep 11 - 10:00 AM (#3222500) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: Mrrzy Railroads! Fascinating place this thread has crept. What about Are we on the same page? I've heard same screen... to update into the computer age... |
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14 Sep 11 - 08:14 AM (#3223009) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: Mr Happy To be perfectly honest, at the end of the day, my take is that I'll be over the moon, if the truth were known! |
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14 Sep 11 - 08:24 AM (#3223016) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: GUEST,Patsy No Spring Chicken. or Passed ones sell by date. Happy as Larry (who was Larry?) Dumbing down. Melt down. Happy as a pig in clover. Let the dog see the rabbit. Knocking off time (end of working day). Gained some Brownie points (made an impression). |
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14 Sep 11 - 09:31 AM (#3223054) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: Jim Dixon I think the original intent of this thread was to collect expressions that have a connection to technology that is now obsolete. Some people have posted expressions that either don't fit the pattern, or fit it in a way that I don't understand—please explain. By the way, did Brownies ever really collect points? |
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14 Sep 11 - 10:17 AM (#3223071) Subject: RE: BS: Fossilised phrases From: Mr Happy Shooting fish in a barrel - why would anyone do such a thing? |
