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19 Sep 11 - 12:41 PM (#3225602) Subject: BS: class warfare From: dick greenhaus THis seems to be the republican response to proposals that we raise taxes on people whose taxable income (NOT WHOSE NET WORTH)exceeds one million dollars. This represents 0.08% of the population. SEems to me that class warfare has been going on now for several decades now, an it' only being called war when the folks who have been under attack start to fight back. "Small Businesses " who pay no tax (such as Bank of America and GE) have been demonstrating their 'job-creating" powers with massive lay-offs. |
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19 Sep 11 - 01:19 PM (#3225623) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: Richard Bridge It is IMHO a very American idea to confuse wealth and class. |
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19 Sep 11 - 01:34 PM (#3225631) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: Lighter It's a "kinder, gentler" kind of class warfare. What's odd is how they expect the average voter, who doesn't even own a business, to react to the charge. Does an office manager earning double digits care if it's "class warfare"? She's not affected. Might the Republicans be getting desperate? |
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19 Sep 11 - 02:51 PM (#3225677) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: kendall It's a "Red herring" |
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19 Sep 11 - 02:58 PM (#3225683) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: Bill D The Republicans DO know who put them in that nice job and who pays for most of their re-elections. At least they are honest... "An honest politician is one who stays bought." |
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19 Sep 11 - 03:11 PM (#3225695) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: Greg F. What's odd is how they expect the average voter... ODD? The "average voter" AGREES with the Republicans & their buzz words of class warfare, creeping socialism, socialized medicine & all the rest and would vote Republican tomorrow - despite the fact that its demonstrably against their own interests - as they have since Nixon/Reagan. |
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19 Sep 11 - 04:01 PM (#3225725) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: Q (Frank Staplin) Democracy is leading to the downfall of "western" nations. The Chinese, not burdened with this silly notion, are forging ahead. |
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19 Sep 11 - 04:05 PM (#3225728) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: Teribus So Q go live and work in China and be unburdened by all "our" silly notions. |
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19 Sep 11 - 04:42 PM (#3225741) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: Lighter > The "average voter" AGREES with the Republicans & their buzz words Polls show this may not be true. Independents dislike Obama, but they seem to dislike Republican obstructionism even more. Republicans boast that they won't support any bill that raises taxes by a penny, no matter what else it might cut. They're not even trying to find a way to spin villainous "tax hikes" into reassuring "new revenues," even though they were able to do so when Bush, Sr., was in office. And at this point, I wonder how many outside the Tea Party even recognize "class warfare" as an allusion to socialism. Remember, two-fifths of adults reject the theory of evolution. |
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19 Sep 11 - 05:14 PM (#3225763) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: Q (Frank Staplin) Rejection of evolution theory reminds me of my days in university when I assisted in various biology and geology classes. I had a lecture on evolution and mutation and received a lot of flack from the Newman Club/Center and another Catholic student organization. This was years ago, but this organization still seems to be strong on many campuses. I did not say that I would prefer to live under the Chinese system of government, but its unified development is currently more efficient in creating capital wealth and expanding the middle class- only the Germans in the west seem to be keeping pace. The U.S. seems to be losing ground to the Asian models. |
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19 Sep 11 - 05:23 PM (#3225769) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: Greg F. I wonder how many outside the Tea Party even recognize "class warfare" as an allusion to socialism Since the Tea Potty doesn't know what socialism IS, they don't recognize it either. Then there's false class consciousness.... |
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19 Sep 11 - 05:39 PM (#3225775) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: GUEST,number 6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c13q2wYZr_0&feature=related biLL |
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19 Sep 11 - 05:41 PM (#3225777) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: GUEST,number 6 ooooops .... here it is Where is Warren Beatty when we need him biLL |
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19 Sep 11 - 06:38 PM (#3225804) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: Richard Bridge I suspect that the "average voter" is simply reacting like a Pavlovian dog and has no idea what s actually happening, thanks largely to the dumbing down of US media and the wall of fascistic shite that much of it produces. |
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19 Sep 11 - 07:29 PM (#3225816) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: GUEST,999 Some folks think ballots. Many who have 'lost the faith' think bullets. When the day ends, I guess the winners write the history. Let me know who won the election. |
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19 Sep 11 - 08:02 PM (#3225832) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: Joe_F Polls have shown that most young people have vastly exaggerated notions of their own future income. They are against taxing the rich because they expect to be rich themselves. There is no end to the foolishness of this world. |
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19 Sep 11 - 08:04 PM (#3225835) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: GUEST,kendall They need Faux noise to find out what to think. |
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19 Sep 11 - 08:14 PM (#3225839) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: GUEST Here is a link to a study done a few years ago. The conclusion is that Americans believe that wealth is much more evenly distributed here than it actually is and, moreover, they would like it to be even more evenly distributed than they believe it to be. (The link is a PDF file) Bev and Jerry |
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19 Sep 11 - 08:40 PM (#3225848) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: Bobert Of course, this is class warfare... The war was declared in 1982 when Reagan installed voodoo, trickle-down economics... Over the last 30 years the Repubs have won all the battles... Now that it looks as if they have a real fight on their hands they are crying "class warfare"... Purdy hypocritical... B~ |
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19 Sep 11 - 09:24 PM (#3225865) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: Rapparee If something isn't done there WILL be 'class warfare' -- the kind where blood flows in the streets. And the 'common folk' in the US have enough guns in their hands to do a job of it. Even here in Bright Red Idaho folks are getting fed up...and if you know history you'll know that it was in Idaho that there WAS 'class warfare'. |
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19 Sep 11 - 09:33 PM (#3225869) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: GUEST,number 6 That's the spirit Rap !! now kids let all go out and sing loudly, sing it loud and clear! Hell .... we don't need no Warren Beatty, we can do it ourselves 3rd stanza of the Internationale ... "The State oppresses and the law cheats Tax bleeds the unfortunate No duty is imposed on the rich The rights of the poor is an empty phrase Enough languishing in custody Equality wants other laws: No rights without duties, she says, Equally, no duties without rights |: This is the final struggle Let us group together, and tomorrow The Internationale Will be the human race" biLL |
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19 Sep 11 - 09:38 PM (#3225871) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: Rapparee Remember, Come The Revolution I'm shooting at BOTH sides. |
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19 Sep 11 - 09:46 PM (#3225874) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: Bobert Settle down, Rap... Shooting at both sides ain't all that smart if one side are the friends and the other side your enemies... Put the gun down, go to the kitchen, open the Frigidaire, get you a cold Iron City Beer, and chill... B~ |
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19 Sep 11 - 11:20 PM (#3225900) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: MarkS Iron City??!!?? Does anybody still drink that stuff? |
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19 Sep 11 - 11:52 PM (#3225913) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: katlaughing there are some interesting comments on npr.org's story on this today. |
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20 Sep 11 - 12:33 AM (#3225921) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: GUEST Poster is 999. "Shooting at both sides ain't all that smart if one side are the friends and the other side your enemies..." Bobert, you and I have been friends. I know you'd never supply me with bullets. But after you don't, how will I tell my kids that their dad was a chickenshit? |
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20 Sep 11 - 03:12 AM (#3225936) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: Les in Chorlton Isn't The USA the richest country because it is full of natural resources? Isn't your 'demoratic' system so distorted by the the power of the rich to own and control the means of communication that it is barely democratic at all. Is it just for some people to get paid thousands of times more than others and to own and control millions of dollars in capital in a country where the poor cannot afford decent food, health care and quality education? Is that what you want? Do you really want people like Sarah Palin and The Republican Party who are clearly both ignorant of all kinds of ordinary facts and stupid enough to neither know nor care? L in C# |
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20 Sep 11 - 03:16 AM (#3225938) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: Richard Bridge At present, Les, President Obama's very correct assertion, that it cannot be right for the lower and middle classes to pay greater proportions of their incomes in tax than (say) Warren Buffet, is apparently being spun in the USA as rampant socialism. |
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20 Sep 11 - 03:39 AM (#3225948) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: Les in Chorlton True enough Richard, Obama can only do what can be done given the powerfull enemies that surround him - not least Fox News. Like Jimmy Carter he will eventually be seen for the best bet the US have had in a very long time. L in C# |
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20 Sep 11 - 08:10 AM (#3226027) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: Lighter > apparently being spun in the USA as rampant socialism Yes and no. Oddly, I haven't heard the "S" word being tossed around for a year or two. Now the "B" word ("birth certificate"), that's another story. What many people don't realize is that huge corporations donate plenty to both parties, so as to hedge their bets. The Republicans get more, it's true. But if it were just a case of "buying" politicians, you;d see the Democrats being just as conservative as the GOP, as well as falling all over themselves to "earn" more. So my guess is that both parties mostly believe what they say. History shows that raising taxes during a recession has sometimes helped the economy and sometimes hasn't. In most ways the recession is over, in one big way - unemployment - it isn't. I think the GOP, as clueless as everybody else in addition to its many other failings, is just falling back on its foundational belief that the Federal government should do as little as possible domestically aside from encouraging business. How to encourage business? Who knows? So, go to perennial Plan A: lower taxes on businesses. Then they'll use that extra money to make more jobs. (Of course, they've had lower taxes for ten years and that didn't make much difference.) The GOP's credibility outside its "base" (i.e., right-wing fanatics) will be close to zero until it comes up with an innovative economic plan of its own, maybe in the guise of "comprehensive tax reform" that really eliminates loopholes. But innovation is abhorrent to conservatives. Unlike the way it once was, compromise is now pretty much abhorrent to them as well. Voters may go Republican simply because the Dems won't be able to make things improve as fast as people would like. (Remember, things *are* trending upward, but at a snail's pace.) If the Reoublicans have any appeal to independents at all, it will be based solely on their intransigence. Intransigence is seen as much more of a virtue than it used to be. So stay tuned. |
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20 Sep 11 - 08:18 AM (#3226033) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: Les in Chorlton Ms/ Mr Lighter, why are the poor so poor in your rich country? L in C# |
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20 Sep 11 - 08:35 AM (#3226037) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: Richard Bridge Reagan's voodoo economics, and the Shrub's total stupidity. |
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20 Sep 11 - 08:53 AM (#3226044) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: Bobert Listen here, brucie... Ol' Bobert got yer back... You wanta shoot back then I'll be there with straps of 50 cal. machine gun rounds hanging on me like Spanish moss... Just don't shoot me, ya' hear??? There are two very distinct camps here... One wants an Ayn Rand world where people get crushed to death by the most corrupt and the best cheaters and the other wants more equality and more univeral opportunity to succeed... Count me in the second one and I know you (an Rap) are in the second one... Hey, it ain't about being no chickenshit... I been arrested once fighting for civil rights and twice fighting to end the Vietnam War.. Different ways of fighting but, like I said, if it ever comes down to these Tea Party folks coming at me with their guns then I got guns, too, and plenty of ammo... B~ |
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20 Sep 11 - 09:20 AM (#3226047) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: Arkie As far as I can tell the GOP has two answers for the economy; cut taxes and eliminate regulation. I would think the economy would improve if the 50% of the population now considered poor had money to spend. Concentrating wealth does not improve the economy, and I still remember John McCain's ridiculing the concept of spreading the wealth around. According to the link below "deregulation" of the broadband in the USA eliminated competition and gave AT&T, Comcast, and Verizon just about complete control resulting in higher prices for consumers for less quality and speed. broadband |
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20 Sep 11 - 10:05 AM (#3226060) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: Greg F. the GOP has two answers for the economy; cut taxes and eliminate regulation Yup, they're still championing the same two things (with Union-Busting added) that Reagan used to put the country on a downwatrd spiral and resulted in the shithole the U.S. of A. is in now. They're either too stupid to know, or too mendacious to admit, that their program has been an abject failure over the last 30 years. And a large segment of the pupulation is even more stupid to support them. |
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20 Sep 11 - 10:20 AM (#3226063) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: Lighter > why are the poor so poor in your rich country? Largely because of the laws of mathematics and economics. It is far easier for a middle-class person to become a millionaire than it is for a poor person to become middle class. Why? Because those who have money to invest in a growing economy have will in general make far more money than those who don't or can't invest. And if they invest wisely, they'll eventually have enough to sustain losses that would wipe out most people, and still bounce back to make even more. The poor are likely to stay poor because they have no opportunity to save, much less invest. Second, wealth - even middle-class wealth - creates educational opportunities which can lead to very high-paying jobs. A recent study of multi-millionaires discovered that most of them had gotten rich, not through inheritance, but through earning $100,000/yr. and more year after year after year, spending prudently, and investing wisely (or luckily). Third, the really poor live in drug-ridden, crime-infested neighborhoods that nobody wants to invest in. Furthermore, there's a "cycle of poverty." Because of the lack of economic opportunity, families stay poor for generations. More subtly, they become increasingly alienated from the education that might help them. Poverty encourages kids to leave school for minimum-wage jobs (or else high-paying drug-selling and prostitution jobs that make the neighborhoods worse). If you doubt any of this, consider: without Social Security and Medicare, poverty would be even worse. But not even these giant Federal programs, which are socialistic by definition, have kept the poverty level from rising and rising. Wealth is rising and rising too, but that, in and of itself, isn't the problem. Bottom line: Money begets money; no money begets no money. Now wouldn't it be a lot simpler if billionaires were just "buying" Congressmen's collusion in sleazy, back-alley deals? Not that they aren't, but the real issue is economics, not bribery. |
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20 Sep 11 - 10:23 AM (#3226065) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: Rapparee "The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly - it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over." ― Joseph Goebbels You associate with people of like beliefs, and eventually you believe that everyone thinks the same way. Conflict arises when you find out that they do not, and you then battle to prove the superiority of your belief system. |
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20 Sep 11 - 10:40 AM (#3226073) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: Les in Chorlton Thanks Ms/Mr Lighter that's very clear and well written - and what I have failed to say in a long time. Now, for the way out? L in C# |
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20 Sep 11 - 11:57 AM (#3226111) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: Lighter If I knew that, I'd be King! (Hmmmm.... bigger house... servants... maybe the voters are ready...) |
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20 Sep 11 - 03:03 PM (#3226193) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: Rapparee But doesn't there also have to be the will to want out? I know quite a few people who were born into poverty, some of them into poverty so deep that they ate the leftovers from others' houses, and yet were able to rise above it by education and determination to succeed. WERE true class warfare to break out in the US or the UK, I'm not sure but that the poor would simply be led by new masters, a la "Animal Farm" or North Korea or the old Soviet Union. |
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20 Sep 11 - 03:17 PM (#3226206) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: Lighter > the poor would simply be led by new masters, a la "Animal Farm" or North Korea or the old Soviet Union. The verdict of history seems pretty clear on that one. As to rising above poverty: Of course, some highly motivated and unusually fortunate (or should I say, "unfortunately unusual") people can wind up with a decent (legal) income no matter what circumstances they were born into. The point is that, statistically, most poor people don't. |
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20 Sep 11 - 03:27 PM (#3226210) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: Lighter And dig this for humor: http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/rep-john-fleming-field-criticism-over-600k-income-153305241.html |
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20 Sep 11 - 03:39 PM (#3226217) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity A huge problem is that here in America, people confuse the 'pursuit of happiness' with the pursuit of material gain. GfS |
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20 Sep 11 - 04:15 PM (#3226229) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: GUEST Greg says: They're either too stupid to know, or too mendacious to admit, that their program has been an abject failure over the last 30 years. Actually, their program has been hugely successful, in that they got what they wanted: even more of the money concentrated in the hands of a few. They've also, apparently, been successful at convincing a large portion of Americans that cut and slash is good for normal citizens. What they are too mendacious to admit is that they don't really care about anyone who isn't a billionaire. |
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20 Sep 11 - 04:17 PM (#3226231) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: John P Oops, that last was cookieless me. |
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20 Sep 11 - 04:32 PM (#3226237) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: dick greenhaus Don't any of them there idiots know the difference between gross sales and taxable income? |
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20 Sep 11 - 05:19 PM (#3226258) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: Bobert When George W. Bush came into office there were a lot of folks on the brink of becoming millionaires and hundreds of thousands of new millionaires (on paper)... When George Bush left office the trend was reversed and lots of new millionaires fell back to under $1M in net worth... However, old money was sitting better than ever... B~ |
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20 Sep 11 - 08:05 PM (#3226320) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: John P I know quite a few people who were born into poverty, some of them into poverty so deep that they ate the leftovers from others' houses, and yet were able to rise above it by education and determination to succeed. I think the problem is, in part, that poor people have to be exceptionally bright, dedicated, and lucky to rise above it. Rich people don't need any of those things. As someone who has been considering going back to school, I have to say that education has become available primarily to the rich. Yes, I could get grants and scholarships, but that means I end up working twice as hard to get the same thing that a rich person just writes a check for. Since I'm a middle-aged homeowner who needs to work a full time job, working twice as hard for an education isn't in the picture, nor are student loans. A recent study of multi-millionaires discovered that most of them had gotten rich, not through inheritance, but through earning $100,000/yr. and more year after year after year, spending prudently, and investing wisely (or luckily). Yes, not many poor people -- even the really talented ones -- end up earning $100,000 a year. They (we) simply can't afford the education that would allow them to get a job like that. My own opinion is that anyone earning that much is already rich . . . |
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20 Sep 11 - 08:50 PM (#3226335) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: Rapparee If the parents don't care their children will continue that vicious cycle. I myself (and my siblings) barely escaped it, and that because our mother wouldn't have it any other way (e.g., there was ALWAYS money for library fines). Many of my friends were the first in their families to graduate from college, some the first to graduate from high school. Let's see though: of those who I want to grade school and high school with and who came from what would be called "upper-middle class" families, one was imprisoned from wrongful use of public funds and another for embezzling enough to destroy the century-old family business. At least two others died of drug misuse. A couple became lawyers and one (who I now remember ALSO did time in the big house for fraud) was into "strategic metals." Now, those of blue-collar parents and "lower": most (perhaps as many as 85%) are either college graduates or started/own their own business. Most served their time in the military, back during the 'Nam time, just as their parents did in WW2 and their grandparents in WW1. Not all, of course. But they did okay for themselves. |
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20 Sep 11 - 11:03 PM (#3226388) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: ollaimh i do find it quite sad and sick that somany american really think their wealth--or former wealth is due to their political and economic system. when your military superiority delivers you a free continent full of resources you have to be a real screw up not to get rich from it. and is seems they are presently screwing the gift of millenia . the increasingly delusional ideology in american politics is leading to increased economic decline. people have frogotten that exploiting the free continent needs work, and practical economic development. saving and invsting locally, producing at ones competitive advantage and governemt that regulates and has income to meet expenses. fisal conservativism. now in canada we are going down the same rout, unfortunately. we had a decade of fiscal conservatism with the liberwls but now the tories have run the two largest deficits in canadian history, all the fund the tories 40% increase in federal spending. two thirds of that increase before the recession. we have great resourses and a small enough population in northamerica to be prosperous forever but we have lost the commitment to sensible governance--both civil and corporate. it's a shame. now i just hope i die before some one kills me to eat me. |
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20 Sep 11 - 11:12 PM (#3226396) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp There has been class warfare practiced on the poor for so long that it's absolutely basic to the culture. More recently class warfare has been practiced ruthlessly on the middle class....and you notice how the middle class is gettin' converted not so slowly, but quite surely into more of "the poor" and "the unemployed". Yessiree, it's class warfare all right. But it ain't bein' practiced ON the rich, it's bein' practiced BY the rich. They are the ones who are wagin' it on the rest of society, with the help of their puppet politicians. And they are the ones who get the bonuses and the bailouts. - Chongo |
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21 Sep 11 - 09:24 AM (#3226583) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: Rapparee For a lousy 360 billion dollars (US) they could make everyone in the US a billionaire. Of course, it might possibly perhaps maybe have some economic consequences.... |
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21 Sep 11 - 09:43 AM (#3226597) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: GUEST,999 Ya might wanna check the math on that, Rap. |
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21 Sep 11 - 11:48 AM (#3226634) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: Ebbie Ha! There are at least 360 people in my own town. |
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21 Sep 11 - 04:20 PM (#3226784) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: Bobert Sounds like Chongz has been reading the Democrat talking points... That's scarey... B;~) |
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21 Sep 11 - 04:33 PM (#3226789) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: Richard Bridge Curious that there are no UK political threads at present. Maybe, while we certainly have a cockup (even the IMF says so) we have no impending erection and no fraggling way out short of a MASSIVE parliamentary vote to truncate the term of this parliament - or a proper revolution. Hey Rap, wanna hire out as a mercenary (oops, sorry, freedom fighter)? |
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21 Sep 11 - 05:14 PM (#3226813) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: John P we have no impending erection hee hee hee |
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21 Sep 11 - 05:19 PM (#3226816) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: Rapparee Economics is the opium of the mathes. |
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22 Sep 11 - 05:19 PM (#3227353) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: DrugCrazed I read a thing about how lowering taxes increases tax income, because the rich accept it and look for less loopholes. If I could remember where I'd got the link from, I'd post it here. |
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22 Sep 11 - 05:54 PM (#3227373) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: saulgoldie It has always been class warfare. 'Specially the last several decades when incomes at the top level have soared and incomes at the production level have fallen way behind. At the moment, the wealthy and unproductive are winning the argument. They may "manage" systems and resources. But without thousands of staff, they are just "idea" people. They cannot enact any of their ideas without staff, who are usually not nearly appreciated enough. Saul |
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22 Sep 11 - 06:06 PM (#3227377) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: Greg F. They have plenty of staff - in India, in Mexico, in China, in the Phillipines, etc. - & the numbers are growing daily. |
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22 Sep 11 - 06:49 PM (#3227393) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: Stringsinger There is a question about class warfare being waged on the poor and middle class but the problem becomes more extensive when you ask what does it mean to be rich? At this time in history, rich can mean abusing natural resources, extending profligate consumption in gas, oil, water, food, and meaningless possessions. In a way you could say that the advertising industry has been waging class war on the gullible public for years cheating them with useless products, planned obsolescence, enticing them to drive cars "unsafe at any speed" and polluting the air, enabling the corrupt energy industry to destroy natural habitats. Being rich today may mean learning to value what is valuable and rejecting that which is destructive to human health and the environment. Government regulating investments makes sense to me and narrows the gap. Capitalism means people living off of their investments and dividends. This could be effectively regulated by going back to Glass Steagal and repealing the Modernization bill rammed through by Phil Gramm. Banks could go back to their original function of loaning and protecting money and not gambling in a Wall Street Casino. Here's where government can play an important role provided that there are honest people (like Elizabeth Warren) in charge. The term "class warfare" is a Frank Luntz propaganda word tool such as "death taxes" which can be reframed by calling them "tax revenues" or "class warfare" could be called "class exploitation". We need to start reframing some of the shibboleths of the GOP and producing a new useful terminology. Use of the term "social democracy" means we can have the best of both worlds, socialism that is not monolithic but useful as in Social Security. The most important thing as George Lakoff suggests is not to use the GOP terminology but immediately reframe the words. Instead of "job creators"..... "Job destroyers", "death taxes"..... "revenue enhancers" (someone can do better than this one)," Socialists"..."social democrats", "patriots"...."taxpayers", "spending cuts"....."stealing from poor"............"entitlements (don't use this one)........."human rights or public investments or insurance payments". You get the idea, just don't use their language or validate it. "Jobs" should be "decent paying jobs". "Capital punishment"......."legalized state murder". Reframe creatively and don't accept or use the terminology that Frank Luntz or others on the mainstream media use. Remember that taxes are necessary for revenue to benefit society, without them you can't have democracy. Taxes are membership into a civilized society provided that the are not misused to aggrandize some reprehensible politician or corporation. By the way, corporations are not people because they don't die, can't be tried for murder (although they should be), as personalities are basically schizophrenic or sociopathic very much like an out-of-control robot, but not people. Having money for free speech is oxymoronic since speech paid for it is never free. "Citizens United" should be "Citizens Exploited" or "Corporate Hegemony". There are many ways to reframe the language. |
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22 Sep 11 - 07:06 PM (#3227407) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: gnu saulgoldie... "It has always been class warfare." Where have I heard that before? Too true. Not that the rich should be blamed for ensuring they stay rich. Even though, it ain't quite the right thing to do, especially when it involves killing so many people who needn't die. But... war is war eh? Sickening as it is. |
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22 Sep 11 - 07:23 PM (#3227418) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: Lighter Note to American pols: You can find the latest SAT scores, by state, here: http://professionals.collegeboard.com/data-reports-research/sat/cb-seniors-2011/tables As SAT scores sank to a new national low, the high-school upperclassmen of no fewer than 16 states and the District of Columbia made a collective mean score of below 500 in "Critical Reading." That's 1/3 of all the states. Maine and DC were tied for rock-bottom, with scores of 469 each. Iowa did the best with 596. The national average was 497. The maximum score in "Critical Reading" is 800. Making the national average equivalent to a grade of "D-". These kids can vote the minute they hit 18! And their older siblings and pals are doing it now! Rock the vote, demagogues!! |
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23 Sep 11 - 05:20 PM (#3227975) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: Stringsinger Schools are often no measure of intelligence. It's true that an education can enhance this intelligence but as we see from some presidents and members of the Senate and Congress, education is no qualification for admittance. Kids are the future and "Please get out of the new one if you can't lend a hand" (I can't believe I'm quoting Dylan!) The old fart road is rapidly changing. |
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23 Sep 11 - 05:22 PM (#3227976) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: Stringsinger That should also have read, intelligence is no qualification for admittance. |
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23 Sep 11 - 05:51 PM (#3227993) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: Lighter It isn't about some abstract measure of "intelligence" in this case. Not at all. It's about the ability of high-school seniors to read passages and show that they understand what the passages actually mean. It's about their ability to draw appropriate conclusions from the words in front of them. And it's a multiple-choice test, too.... |
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23 Sep 11 - 09:43 PM (#3228107) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: Greg F. Yeah, all those cuts to education funding, scholarships, aid to Stetes' education sustems & etc. initiated by The Sainted Reagan & pursued by the Repubs nationwide to date plus idiotic programs like 'No Child's Left Buttock' have worked a treat. We've raised up a generation (or 2)of morons. It'll only get worse.... |
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23 Sep 11 - 09:57 PM (#3228119) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: dick greenhaus Stringsinger-"Kids are the future and "Please get out of the new one if you can't lend a hand" (I can't believe I'm quoting Dylan!) The old fart road is rapidly changing." The old fart road is cluttered with old farts who were kids when Dylan made is proclamation. THat future is right now. |
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23 Sep 11 - 10:17 PM (#3228121) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: Bobert Huxley's "Brave New World" has come to pass and we now have an entire EPSILON NATION and they ain't too bright and they haven't been taught critical thinking skills Bad news for the future of our nation as one job these kids are well qualified to do is: brown shirting... Very good at that... B~ |
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24 Sep 11 - 09:02 AM (#3228287) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: Lighter As I recall, the pre-boomer generation complained that boomers were blighting their minds with sex, drugs, and rock 'n' roll. I don't think they ever suggested we couldn't snap out of it, though. A simple haircut might do the trick. Maybe today's kids *can't* snap out if it. Prove me wrong, boyzngirlz! |
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24 Sep 11 - 01:24 PM (#3228378) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: Lighter What you can do now. And good luck. http://finance.yahoo.com/retirement/article/113526/what-it-takes-become-millionaire-cnbc?mod=retire-planning |
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26 Sep 11 - 09:50 PM (#3229682) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: bobad "I hear all this, 'well, this is class warfare, this is whatever'. No. There is nobody in this country who got rich on his own. Nobody. You built a factory out there? Good for you. But I want to be clear: You moved your goods to market on the roads the rest of us paid for; you hired workers the rest of us paid to educate; you were safe in your factory because of police forces and fire forces that the rest of us paid for. You didn't have to worry that marauding bands would come and seize everything at your factory, and hire someone to protect against this, because of the work the rest of us did." - Elizabeth Warren |
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27 Sep 11 - 02:05 AM (#3229726) Subject: RE: BS: class warfare From: michaelr Hear hear. That Elizabeth Warren should be head of the Federal Reserve. |