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30 Sep 11 - 02:05 PM (#3231789) Subject: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Stower Tunes, please. My early music duo, The Night Watch, is planning a winter / Christmas show featuring mediaeval, renaissance and early baroque songs and tunes on the theme of winter and Christmas, with a latest date cut-off point of about 1700. We have plenty of songs but could do with a few more tunes for the show. We are looking specifically for tunes that mention frost, winter, Christmas, etc. I have trawled Playford's Dancing Master and found only Drive The Cold Winter Away (which we'll sing the song of, as it was a 17th century broadside). So we'd be most grateful for any tunes with wintery names, as long they are before around 1700. The web page for one of the shows is here |
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30 Sep 11 - 02:34 PM (#3231808) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Ann N There's always Gaudete :) it's pre 1700, very suitable for Christmas and I'm sure you'll already know the tune For anyone who hasn't heard the song before youtube version of Gaudete :D |
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30 Sep 11 - 02:42 PM (#3231812) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Mo the caller Is 'In the fields of Frost and snow' Playford? It has words, like an early Old Macdonald. There was an article in the EFDSS Journal recently. |
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30 Sep 11 - 03:18 PM (#3231835) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Ann N 2 more ... 'Chestnut' (Dove's Figary) and 'Cast a Bell', both could slip in with Christmas friendly titles and were in the 1651 edition of Playford :) |
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30 Sep 11 - 03:50 PM (#3231850) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Ann N ... would John Dowland's Mistress Winter's Jump be of use ? :) |
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30 Sep 11 - 05:08 PM (#3231891) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Stower Thanks, Ann and Mo. I had never heard of 'In the Fields in Frost and Snow', so big thanks. It turns out to have been in PEDM editions of 1710, 1714, 1718, 1728. Mo, if you could give the highlights about it from the EFDSS Journal or the issue number I'd be most grateful. Ann, I already play Chestnut (or Dove's Figary) on 4 course renaissance guitar and John Dowland's Mistress Winter's Jump on lute, but for some reason hadn't thought of them for the show - so thank you! And Cast a Bell - why didn't I think of that? Wonderful! Any more excellent suggestions? Big smiles. Stower |
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30 Sep 11 - 05:40 PM (#3231902) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Simpson's The British Broadside Ballad and its Music has Last Christmas 'Twas My Chance ("Pepys' copy c1620"). There is also a Nowel's [sic] Galiard in the Fitzwilliam Virginal Book. Mick |
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30 Sep 11 - 06:28 PM (#3231923) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Jack Campin Another song, if a rather different one: Neidhart von Reuental's "Winder wie ist nu dein kraft" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmDlOwSyqsw I can't find a YouTube performance I'd pay to listen to. In a few minutes of searching I've found an unspeakably bungled and out-of-tune recorder duet, a version off an LP where the notes are all absolutely of even length like a bad MIDI, a version by an early music group trying to sound like a Teutonic death metal band, a race between guitar and viol where the music comes in third, and a flashy performance on the harp which gets the melody wonderfully lively and expressive but she forgets to *sing* it. |
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30 Sep 11 - 07:24 PM (#3231952) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Jack Campin Hey, I found a version of Neidhart's song done instrumentally that I actually like: Japanese folk-jazz-rock band with didgeridoo |
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30 Sep 11 - 10:27 PM (#3232017) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: JohnB We do "Es ist ein Ros entsprungen" "Tomorrow Shall be my Dancing Day" Bring a Torch Jeanette Isabella" "Ding Dong Merrily on high(Bransle Officiel)" "Pat a Pan" "Seven Joys of Mary" "I saw three Ships/Sussex Carol (as a pair alternating tunes)" "Sir Richard de Coverly" and a few more. Although the last is probably outside your timeframe, I think most of the others fit (without actually checking). JohnB. |
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01 Oct 11 - 04:08 AM (#3232087) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Geoff the Duck Sir Richard de Coverly - Surely you mean Roger? Or did he have a brother? Quack! GtD. |
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01 Oct 11 - 06:01 AM (#3232118) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Stower Thanks, Mick. I thought I'd find Last Christmas 'Twas My Chance with other Pepys broadsides in the English Broadside Ballad Archive but it isn't there. I think the whole Pepys broadside collection is online, so I wonder is Sam wrote it out? Do you know where I might find it? Mick, I wonder if your Nowel's Galiard in the Fitzwilliam Virginal Book is the very beautiful Anthony Holborne tune? No readily available music for that (I don't have the full consort parts), but I have Holborne's bandora consort part which can easily be adapted for lute or renaissance guitar for my part in the duo. Thank you! You sending me to my Holborne complete works for lute and bandora helps me rediscover his bandora solo, The New Year's Gift which, again, can be easily adapted. Jack, I have to agree with you about YouTube performances of Neidhart von Reuental's Winder wie ist nu dein kraft! John B, the version of Es ist ein Ros entsprungen here is making my neck hairs tingle - wow. I'd love to do that as a tune using Praetorius' parts as a starting point (there are 2 of us so we'll have to adapt). We've got Branle d'official on our list, thank you. I saw three Ships and Sussex Carol are, I think, late for us (correct me if I'm wrong). We were thinking of Tomorrow Shall be my Dancing Day as a song or tune, but I can find no evidence this goes back further than the 19th century! (Quite a few authors claim it to be mediaeval without offering any supporting evidence. I think it's one of those cases where mediaeval = it sounds vaguely old to me. Please do say if you know otherwise.) Thank you all! Very grateful! This is Mudcat at its best and your suggestions will definitely be used and help even up the song/tune balance in the programme. Any more? Stower. |
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01 Oct 11 - 07:35 AM (#3232138) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Ann N this Christmas I hope to 'Pastime with good company' (Henry VIII) and discover some 'Fine knacks for ladies' (Dowland) under the tree :) |
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01 Oct 11 - 08:42 AM (#3232147) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Stower Re Last Christmas 'Twas My Chance: A ballad with the rhyming title "The Pedlar opening of his Packe, To know of Maydes what tis they lacke" and begins "Who is it will repaire" (Pepys: reprinted in Pepysian Garland, p116". No contemporary version of the tune exists but Pills, 1719-1720, V, 25 contains a song beginning "Last Christmas 'twas my chance", in the same distinctive four-and-a-half line stanza pattern of the ballad". (Simpson) This is the tune Simpson prints. All the tunes from Simpson are available in Bruce Olson's website, archived here (Bruce Olson's website in the Quick Links drop down); this is a direct link to the abc for Simson's tunes: The British Broadside Ballad and its Music - abc of tunes. Alternatively you can find it in Pills Vol V (I haven't checked it - my copies are on my other machine!), but if you don't have Pills, you can download it from archive.org. Here is a link to the Pepys ballad text: The Pedlar opening of his Packe at UCSB. Nowel's Galiard is given as anon; if you don't have Fitzwilliam you can PM me an email address I'll send you a scan of the two pages. (I'd put the abc up here, but I don't think I've got time at the moment). Mick |
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01 Oct 11 - 08:48 AM (#3232152) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Marje If you can get hold of a copy of The Shorter New Oxford Book of Carols (quite different from the other OBOC), it helpfully divides the "Composed Carols" into Middle Ages, pre-1700 etc. Possible ones include Angelus ad Virginem, Veni Veni Emmanuel, Personent Hodie, Unto us a boy is born, There is No Rose, Quem Pastores Laudavere, In Dulci Jubilo.(glorious melodies, those last two). In the Traditional Carols section, the earliest dates given are usually the earliest published dates, whereas the carols may be centuries older than that. The Boars' Head Carol, for instance, appears in print in 1860 but the book tells us that by 1700 wild boars were extinct in England, which suggests that the carol must go back a long way. The words of the Sussex Carol were written by 1686, but the origins of the traditional tune are not dated. Others that are probably old enough include I Saw Three Ships, God Rest Ye Merry, and some of the wassail carols, but it's difficult to trace the origins of traditional melodies. Oh, and there's Green Grow'th the Holly, which is in the OBOC and is 16th century. That can work as a duet, but is better with the third part added on voice or instrument. And don't forget Coventry Carol. Marje |
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01 Oct 11 - 09:00 AM (#3232156) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Stower I should have checked earlier, but if you don't have Fitzwilliam, you can download the 2 vols from ILSMP: Fitzwilliam Virginal Book download page (click the yellow arrows against Volume I and Volume II). Nowel's Galliard is in Vol 2, p369 (actual page 378 in the pdf). Mick |
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01 Oct 11 - 10:47 AM (#3232175) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Stower There is a recording of Nowel's Galliard on youtube Nowel's Galliard, with a comment that it is also the tune set by Holborne as you mentioned above. Mick |
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01 Oct 11 - 01:04 PM (#3232232) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Mo the caller The article is by Vic Gammon in EFDSS journal Vol 10 number 1 2011. "Farmyard cacophonies. 3 centuries of a popular song." The song is by Tho. D'Urfey Not sure how much I can quote without breaching copyright, but basically the words are In the fields in frost and snow Watching late and early ...then 2 lines about the animal the sing is milking / shearing etc And a chorus with animal noises "here a boo, there a boo everywhere a boo" etc, It then goes on to talk about other animal catalogue songs and analyse them. Including the versions you wouldn't sing at a Sunday School concert. |
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01 Oct 11 - 04:45 PM (#3232309) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: GUEST,Jan The Boars Head and Lullay my liking - both 15th C carols - emphasis on the feasting and medieval celebrations - sung by The Spinners many years ago Jan |
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01 Oct 11 - 07:40 PM (#3232367) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Stower Ann N, I did think of Dowland's Fine Knacks for Ladies, and thanks, Jan, for your song suggestions - we already have plenty (i.e. too many) of songs for the programme and we're specifically looking for tunes. Mick, another reason for not doing Fine Knacks is because I had discovered The Pedlar opening of his Packe on the English Broadside Ballad Archive - similar sentiment to Dowland's song but I prefer to sing Pedlar simply on the basis that people won't know it but they'll likely know the Dowland song. The question of authorship before days of copyright can be difficult to fathom. I think all of Holborne's tunes - as far as I know - were original (whereas Dowland, Byrd, etc. did a fair bit of doing clever things with existing tunes and putting their name to it, as was the way in the renaissance), so I suspect Nowel's Galiard in the FVB is a resetting of the Holborne original. Thanks for the offer of PMing you for the scan - since I read music terribly slowly but lute tab quickly I'll stick with Holborne's piece - but thank you! Marje, thanks for the info on The Shorter New Oxford Book of Carols -I have the New Oxford Book, which is a lot fuller and more detailed than the 'old' one. We already do Grow'th the Holly and Coventry Carol - thanks for the tip-off about the others. Mo, thanks for the info from the EFDSS journal on farmyard songs - I'll look that up. Thank you all - you've all been very kind and helpful. And if there are any more suggestions ...? Stower |
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02 Oct 11 - 05:03 AM (#3232503) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Mo the caller "...we already have plenty (i.e. too many) of songs for the programme and we're specifically looking for tunes." A lot of the Playford dance tunes are really songs anyway. |
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02 Oct 11 - 10:35 AM (#3232571) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Mick Pearce (MCP) While on Holborne, there's As It Fell On A Holly Eve. (You can find a Fronimo file of the lute tab for that on Serge Gerbode's site, if you don't already have it: Holborne lute tabs). Mick |
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02 Oct 11 - 10:42 AM (#3232575) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Mick Pearce (MCP) And there's Bonny Sweet Robin. Mick |
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02 Oct 11 - 11:14 AM (#3232593) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Mick Pearce (MCP) Campions Now Winters Nights from the Third Booke of Ayres (Now Winters Nights - many formats). And Purcell has When A Cruel Long Winter and Next Winter Comes Slowly; also The Frost Scene. Mick |
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03 Oct 11 - 12:24 AM (#3232876) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: GUEST,leeneia I have a copy of Peter Barnes' book of English Country Dances, and it has a tune called "in the fields of frost and snow." Maybe you can find that one. |
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03 Oct 11 - 04:16 AM (#3232912) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Stower Thank you all again! Mick, having gone back to my complete solo Holborne, I found the wonderful (and very tricky!) As It Fell On A Holy Eve, too, as well as The New Year's Gift. I have picked out the bandora accompaniment consort part of Heigh Ho Holiday (the rest of the consort parts are missing) and worked it up into a 4 course guitar arrangement, as it fits so well on there. And Bonny Sweet Robin - why didn't I think of that! In the duo, we've had great fun trying to find the most tenuous and improbable connections to winter / Christmas - I think Mris Winter's Jump and Bonny Sweet Robin must come pretty near the top for tenuousness - we'll take them! I love Thomas Campion's songs and am planning to sing Never Weather Beaten Sail (not Christmassy or wintery, but beautiful and with a religious theme). Why am I not familiar with Now Winters Nights? Thank you, Mick - it's beautiful and the words are exactly right for the programme. I know I said we didn't want more songs, but I'll certainly make an exception here. leeneia, In the fields of frost and snow is discussed above. I found the words to it in D'Urfey's Pills - great fun - contemplating whether to do this as a Playford tune or an audience singalong. Thank you again for your time, generosity and suggestions. It is very much appreciated. If any of you are in the area and can come to The Night Watch Winter Warmer, I do hope you will introduce yourselves. Big smiles. Stower |
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03 Oct 11 - 06:24 PM (#3233337) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Artful Codger Aside from "Bonny Sweet Robin" being a song of its own ("Robin is to the greenwood gone"), the tune is also used for the carol "Come mad boys, be glad boys" (aka "Carol for St. Stephen's Day," providing a definite seasonal tie-in), and also for "Sweet angel of England." The tune can be found in the Fitzwilliam Virginal Book, also in Chappell, English Popular Music, Vol. 1, pp.153-4. Several nice clips on YouTube under the titles of "Sweet angel of England" and "Robin is to the greenwood gone." There are many carol books scanned at Google Books which go back quite far, and I'd particularly recommend checking out some in French, where you'll find interesting tunes for carols almost never performed now, due to language difficulties. Prior to the 1800s (if I recall my QI trivia correctly), only 20% of the population of France could speak and understand the language/dialect we now know as French. But since you only need good tunes... |
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03 Oct 11 - 06:39 PM (#3233342) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Jack Campin One by, I think, Tom D'Urfey - "When the cold winter nights were frozen". It's a version of the tune otherwise known as "Mary Scott the Flower of Yarrow" or "Sir John Fenwick's the Flower Amang Them All". If you can't find it I have the version in Thomson's Scottish recorder MS of 1702. |
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03 Oct 11 - 06:51 PM (#3233348) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: GUEST,josepp Is nobody going to mention Anonymous 4's "Als I Lay on Yoolis Night"? Of course, this is really pre-1700--like sung in Olde English pre-1700. |
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03 Oct 11 - 07:43 PM (#3233373) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Helen I don't know the dates of the music on this album, and I haven't heard it for many years, because my copy is vinyl and I don't have the record player set up, but it is a lovely album by the same Robin Williamson who was in Incredible String Band, all those decades ago. Robin Williamson's Winter's Turning CD |
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04 Oct 11 - 02:49 PM (#3233817) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Stower Artful Codger, I know some commentators say Bonny Sweet Robin and Robin is to the Greenwood Gone are the same tune, but they seem really divergent to my ears (I play both on lute, the former from Thomas Robinson, the latter in Folger Dowland). Both are lovely, but robins weren't part of Christmas iconography pre-1700 and the original robin in question here is Robin Hood - I'm beginning to think that connection to winter/Christmas is just a little too tenuous! But that tune to Come mad boys, be glad boys (Carol for St. Stephen's Day) is one I don't know - thank you. We're really looking for tunes, but I could just play Robin is to the Greenwood Gone and explain the seasonal connection? Mmmm, I think I'd like to do that - thank you. josepp, thank you, we have songs a-plenty and are looking for tunes. Helen, Robin Williamson's Winter's Turning is a lovely album. I have it on cassette somewhere. I'll go and trawl through my tape drawers. Thank you. Again, thank you all for your thoughts. |
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04 Oct 11 - 08:40 PM (#3234012) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Artful Codger The connection for "Robin" that I had in mind was simply "Come Mad Boys", and you could simply introduce the song as that, with no mention of "Robin." The carol was collected by 1642. |
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05 Oct 11 - 06:31 PM (#3234551) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Artful Codger A French carol (which you needn't sing) from the 15th c. is "Bel astre que j'adore", the tune of which is "Charmante Gabrielle"; see this thread/message for a link to a sound clip: Les Chansons de la France: http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=39187#2517624 The second tune in the sound clip is another possible candidate, "Pe trouz war an douar" (What is the sound[, the song which I hear]?), which some sites refer to as 17th c., though I haven't tripped across any details in my cursory exploration. Sound clips for both may also be found on YouTube, and several sites have scores. |
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05 Oct 11 - 06:58 PM (#3234562) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Artful Codger A tad more info on the second carol: Its title is given variously as "Pe(h) trouz (')zo (w)ar an/en douar", and it is credited to Noury (whoever that may be). |
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07 Oct 11 - 05:49 AM (#3235240) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Stower Thank you, thank you, thank you all! We had a practice last night and decided more or less on a working set list (which may change), which will be something approaching this, chronologically, running order to be decided. What actually gets put in or left out may well depend on how quickly we learn a piece (which often has little to do with what you *intend* to learn! Have you ever discovered that you practice one thing hard while learning something else accidentally by osmosis?): MEDIAEVAL Miri It Is c.1225 anon, England Edi Beo Thu, Hevene Quene Late 13th c. anon, England Adam lay ebounden 14th c, 13th c anon, England, music N von Reuental Stella Splendens 14th c. anon, Catalonia The Salutation / Bring Us In Good Ale c.1460 trad, England Noel Nouvelet 15th c. trad, France RENAISSANCE & BAROQUE Joseph Leiber Joseph Mein c.1500 trad, Germany Grene Growith The Holy c.1513-20 ?King HenryVIII, England Westron wynde c.1513-20 anon, England Tourdion: When I'm drinking 1529 trad, France (Attaingnant) Coventry Carol c.1534 trad, England The Night Watch 1597 Anthony Holborne, England There comes a ship a sailing c.1470–1626 trad, Germany Personent hodie / branle de l'Official / [mystery tune] 14th–16th c, 1589 trad, France Robin is to the Green wood Gonn 1590 trad, anon, England When That I Was c.1601 trad, England Remember O thou man 1611 Thomas Ravenscroft, England Neuer weather-beaten Saile 1613 Thomas Campion, England The little Barly-Corne 1618-1658? trad, England To drive the cold Winter away 1625 trad, England In the Fields in Frost and Snow 1709 Tom D'Urfey Also possible: Angelus ad Virginem Campion's Now Winters Nights Chestnut (or Dove's Figary) etc. Playford set The Pedler opening of his Packe Dowland's Mistress Winter's Jump Holborne's Nowel's Galiard |
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07 Oct 11 - 06:04 AM (#3235246) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Jack Campin Adam lay ebounden 14th c, 13th c anon, England, music N von Reuental What? Britten sets "Adam lay ybounden" to a 9/8 tune in "A Ceremony of Carols" and a lot of 9/8 tunes would work for it. I mentioned "When the cold winter nights were frozen" before - another one from the same place and time is "Where will bonny Annie lie in the cold nights in winter". Both have always been done more often as tunes than as songs. |
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07 Oct 11 - 01:44 PM (#3235430) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Stower Jack, you kind of answer your own "What?" "Britten sets Adam lay ybounden ..." - exactly. We have the words but no tune and, since Britten is hardly contemporaneous with the text, we picked a winter tune by Neidhart von Reuental that fits the words exactly. |
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07 Oct 11 - 04:46 PM (#3235509) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Jack Campin OK, I couldn't think of one of Neidhart's that would work with that. I've just been looking for an early setting of Villon's "Ballade des dames du temps jadis" (with the line "Ou sont les neiges d'antan") - and I couldn't find one that predated Georges Brassens, which surprised me. |
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07 Oct 11 - 06:36 PM (#3235553) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Helen Stower, I love this one: Neuer weather-beaten Saile 1613, Thomas Campion, England. About 30 years ago I bought a book called An Elizabethan Song Book, compile by Noah Greenberg, W H Auden & Chester Kallman. I used to play the tunes on my flute. Never Weather-Beaten Saile was one of my favourites. Thomas Campion's tunes, as well as those by John Dowland, were my favourites in the book. My favourite CD at the moment is Estampies & Danses Royales (Hesperion XXI, Jordi Savall) which are tunes from a 13th Century manuscript. I wish I could go to your concert. A bit far to go from Australia! Helen |
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08 Oct 11 - 02:48 PM (#3235881) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: GUEST,Tracie I know you've got your program pretty much set, but here are some tunes I like to play, either in consort or solo: -- The Old Year Now Away Has Fled (to Greensleeves) This is one I like to invite the audience to sing (lyrics in the program, minus the circumcision verse) because they already know the tune. Good for a finale. Sing with feeling -- it's mostly about parties and liquor. -- Nutmegs and Ginger -- Hey for Christmas (to Dargason) -- Heigh ho Holiday (Holborne) -- Hollis Berry (also Holborne) -- Sweet Was the Song (Lute Book Lullaby) from William Ballet lute book – in Oxford Book of Carols, among other places. Your concert sounds like fun. Love your photo. |
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08 Oct 11 - 08:51 PM (#3235994) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Stower Helen, I completely agree that Neuer weather-beaten Saile is beautiful - not remotely wintery or Christmassy, but with a religious sentiment, which for me is a good enough reason to include it in the programme (I don't need much of an excuse to include this one). Yes, Helen, Thomas Campion and John Dowland - together with Anthony Holborne - are my favourite renaissance composers, too: Campion for his directness, simplicity and huge range of song subjects, Dowland for his breathtaking way of making melancholy beautiful in a song and the sheer joy of his dances, and Holborne for his chordal and polyphonic complexity and his left-field idea of what makes a tune. And yes, I agree that Savall's CD of Estampies & Danses Royales is refreshing and original. (Any of Savall's projects are worth a listen.) Helen, if you should decide to spend any part of December in England, you'd be most welcome! Tracie, thanks for your thoughts. I did consider Heigh ho Holiday (as above), but in the interests of bredth of material (trying to include as many sources as possible) went for his Nowel's Galiard instead, but I'm still storing Heigh ho in the back of my mind in reserve. Ah! Nutmegs and Ginger! Another obvious title that hadn't occured to me. I have an arrangement I made of that on 4 course guitar which I haven't learned yet, you've got me thinking I should consider it for the show. Mmm, maybe let's see how the rehearsals go for the 'definites' first, which should take a couple of weeks to learn. Many thanks. Stower |
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09 Oct 11 - 02:42 AM (#3236068) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Helen Stower, I haven't heard of Anthony Holborne, although I might have heard some of his works on some of my CD's without realising. Now I'll have to check him out. So much great music, so little time. My problem is that I like all sorts of music, but the early music really has a special resonance with me. Maybe because I studied Anglo-Saxon and Middle English over 30 years ago at Uni, or maybe it was vice versa. I blame a music teacher who taught us to sing "Sumer is y-cumen in" and "The Three Ravens", in high school. Helen |
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09 Oct 11 - 06:20 AM (#3236109) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Stower Hello, Helen. Anthony Holborne really was a one-off. Joyful music of great complexity. If you have a lute, just try playing The Fairy Round without stumbling. Here it is again, at a slightly more leisurely pace and perhaps with a clearer picture of what intricate work is needed on both hands to play Holborne. Muy Linda is typical of Holborne's writing - there is just *so* much going on for both hands (you'll know what I mean if you're a lute player) but then when you figure out how to play it and keep everything going it is *so* rewarding. Jacob Heringman made a solo lute, cittern and bandora recording of Holborne some years ago - definitely worth seeking out. And Holborne's The Night Watch is the piece we - that's my early music duo (link at top of this thread) - are named after (though we haven't recorded it yet). Stower |
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09 Oct 11 - 05:09 PM (#3236372) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Helen Hi again. I've watched a couple of the YouTube vids. I'll have more time later today. I saw the tv show, Songs from the Labyrinth, with Edin Karamazov and the rock musician Sting. I enjoyed it very much, and I expect that it might catapult the lute into people's awareness a bit more. Unfortunately I don't have a lute, but it is an instrument I have always enjoyed listening to. My hubby nearly crashed the car one day, when we were driving past some shops in an inner city suburb in Sydney. I yelled out "Oud! It's an oud!" because I had seen one in a shop window. I had to explain. He asked me if I wanted to go back and look at it, but I didn't want to be tempted to buy it, when I knew my past dabbling in music was not really successful, and I doubt whether there would be a teacher where we live. (I've dabbled with Celtic harp, off and on for about 3 decades, with no teacher except for a short period about 20 years ago.) Helen |
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10 Oct 11 - 02:42 AM (#3236552) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Stower Helen. Yes, Sting's Labyrinth. Whenever I took my lute to a folk club I'd always be met with "What's that?" or "What type of guitar is that?" When Sting's Dowland album came out, I was met instead with, "Are you trying to be like Sting?" Aaaggghhhh! Not playing the lute is probably wise, Helen! It's the most beautiful instrument ever devised (in my opinion) and is so rewarding to play, but it's soooo difficult to get to grips with! So there's always that push and pull factor. I heard an interview with Nigel Kennedy the other morning where he said how much mingled joy and frustration the fiddle has bought him so, as therapy, every few years he takes a fiddle and smashes it to pieces. I can understand the sentiment! (Though I would *never* smash a lute!) I also play the oud, the predecessor of the lute, for some of the mediaeval music we play. I bought mine in a market in Turkey and have seen the exact same instrument for sale several times in this for literally 19 times the price I paid for it. Lucky me! Stower |
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10 Oct 11 - 05:54 AM (#3236593) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Jack Campin Helen - there are some very very good oud players in Sydney. Subscribe to Mike's Oud Forums to find out more. |
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10 Oct 11 - 04:42 PM (#3236959) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Helen Hi Jack, Thanks for the info, but I'm being realistic about my musical skills, especially the fact that I don't practise enough, and I don't need to feel guilty about having *another* instrument that I don't practise, along with the harp, flute, piano, tin whistle, drum etc etc. I live in Newcastle, which is 100 miles north of Sydney, and I hate going to Sydney, so it might as well be a world away. I think I'm about to get serious about the harp again, after a few years away from it due to some serious, stressful ongoing life issues which have gotten in the way, and which I think I can now leave behind. So, I'll just appreciate other people's lute and oud playing and try to concentrate on my own musical progress. (I'm trying to wrench myself away from my Gemini tendencies to get tempted to get yet another instrument, which I know I won't do justice to by learning to play properly.) Stower, I guess you can't win re: Sting. He has a bit of bad press, but I always thought he was a very clever musician, and it did surprise me briefly that he had started playing lute, but then I thought it made a lot of sense. Helen |
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10 Oct 11 - 05:29 PM (#3236968) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Monique Provençal Christmas Carols by Micolau Sabòly (Nicolas Saboly in French) -1614-1675. |
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10 Oct 11 - 05:30 PM (#3236971) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Monique Oops! it's Micolau Sabòli or Micoulau Sabòli in Prov. |
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10 Oct 11 - 10:28 PM (#3237084) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Artful Codger The Saboly carols book at Google Books (more easily browsed, IMO): http://books.google.com/books?id=V4cQAAAAYAAJ And some of these carols in an edition with English and French translations (but no Provençal lyrics): Ten Provençal Carols: http://books.google.com/books?id=WIcQAAAAYAAJ This is the second set only, thus only five of the ten, with two being variants of the same song. But among this set I caught sight of "Le jambe me fait mal," mentioned above, though under the name "Boots and Saddles/Boute Selle, à mon cheval." The tenth one, "Touro louro louro (le coq chante)" I recognize as "Tura lura lura lo gau canta," which was recorded by the Boston Camera on their Renaissance album; a fun piece. The author's name is commonly modernized (or rendered in standard French) as Nicolas. |
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11 Oct 11 - 10:18 AM (#3237189) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Monique Ah, thanks for the link, Artful Codger! I'd once downloaded the pdf and couldn't find it again at archives.org The 5 carols on Ten Provençal Carols are carols # 29 (Lei pastourèu 1&2), 5, 50 and 56. I made a literal English translation to "La cambo me fai mau and "Touro louro louro" (Tura lura lura) on Mama Lisa's World Occitania page. You can also find "Pastres rintratz vòstrei tropèus" on Mudcat (original lyrics, singable translation and midi). It must go back to the 16th century or so. Micoulau is still Micoulau (or Micolau in standardized Oc), Nicolas is the French for it. |
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11 Oct 11 - 11:10 AM (#3237215) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: ollaimh don't forget the wexford carol. a simple but beautiful medody with either gaelic or english lyrics. it dates back to the seventh century. one of the oldest christmass carols |
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11 Oct 11 - 03:02 PM (#3237339) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Stower ollaimh, do you have a reference for the dating of the Wexford Carol? Beautiful song. It was collected by WH Grattan Flood, who wasn't born until 1857. I've heard claims that this (and some other songs) 'go back to [insert century]', but without any reference to back up the claim. Tomorrow Shall Be My Dancing Day is one such example that is claimed as that vague term 'mediaeval' (that covers 1,000 years!), but I can find no evidence either song goes back further than the 19th century. I'd be more than happy to be pointed towards the relevant dated mss. |
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11 Oct 11 - 03:20 PM (#3237348) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Monique Tous les bourgeois de Chartres 16th-France (score and mp3) Voisins, d'où venait ce grand bruit? 15th- France (score and midi) Chansons de Noël, mostly French carols but it's worth having a look (scores and midis) |
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11 Oct 11 - 08:42 PM (#3237524) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Artful Codger If the Wexford carol you mean is the one starting "Good people all, this Christmastime" (aka. the Enniscorthy Christmas Carol), the text is largely derived, at some remove, from a black-letter ballad "All you who are to mirth inclin'd" (published by 1645). Grattan Flood collected the text and tune from a local singer, reworked the text, and submitted it to the editors of The Oxford Book of Carols, who reworked the text some more. The first four-and-a-half verses appear in Shawcross's Old Castleton Christmas Carols (1904). The New Oxford Book of Carols contains a different version of the text, taken from The Wexford Carols (1982), in turn taken from a broadside published by the County Wexford Museum in Enniscorthy, as sung by Fr. Patrick Cummins c.1912. But the important point, in regard to the original request, is the age of the tune, which remains a question. While it sounds "traditional", it can only be firmly dated to Flood's collection of the carol in 1912. Jack Devereux, who provided the melodies for The Wexford Carols, sang this text to the tune for "Ye sons of men" (#161 in the NOBoC). |
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12 Oct 11 - 04:47 AM (#3237661) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: GUEST Thank you so much, Artful Codger. The Wexford Carol's textual basis will be this ballad, then. To my ears, The Wexford Carol is an improvement but, as you rightly say, the evidence says the finished product is well outside of The Night Watch dates. We could work up an arrangement of the broadside, but we already have plenty of songs - it's tunes we're looking for (as stated in the original post). Thanks all, once again. I didn't expect so many responses - and of such quality, too - to what I thought may be an esoteric request. This is Mudcat at its best! Stower |
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12 Oct 11 - 04:50 AM (#3237662) Subject: RE: Tune Req: Pre-1700 winter & Christmas tunes, pls From: Stower Sorry, that last post was me. Don't know where my cookie went. Stower |