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BS: Wall Street Protesters...

02 Oct 11 - 07:31 PM (#3232796)
Subject: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Well, well, well...

Looks as if the "General Assembly" is breaking thru the BIG MEDIA blackballing...

Good...

Anyone have current info, please add it until we start getting even more thru the news embargo...

Bob


02 Oct 11 - 08:03 PM (#3232806)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: artbrooks

Personally, I've been following this on cnn.com and hadn't noticed any embargo. There was a very peaceful support march here in Albuquerque yesterday; no streets blocked so nobody arrested.


02 Oct 11 - 08:31 PM (#3232814)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Until just 2 days ago night not one of the BIG THREE (CBS, ABC or NBC) covered it... That's a full force embargo...

Bob


02 Oct 11 - 09:02 PM (#3232825)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: artbrooks

Only if you watch TV, I guess. The web versions of the print media have had it covered pretty well.


02 Oct 11 - 09:10 PM (#3232827)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Nothing real in the "liberal" Washington Post until Thursday... 2 weeks after it bagan... Maybe Page A-17. I donno... I read it on line...

B~


02 Oct 11 - 11:15 PM (#3232868)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Stilly River Sage

NPR has had several articles. There is another thread that has been discussing this for a week or more. Here is the NYPD Police Brutality - or not? thread.

It sounds like it has taken a little while but people have caught the peaceful tone and it is growing.

SRS


03 Oct 11 - 08:51 AM (#3233012)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: EBarnacle

Could this be the analog of the 60's anti war movement?


03 Oct 11 - 01:37 PM (#3233133)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Copycat in Toronto Bay Street. Receiving more coverage than it is worth.


03 Oct 11 - 02:33 PM (#3233163)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Mrrzy

They are in Boston too. About time!


03 Oct 11 - 04:14 PM (#3233248)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Stilly River Sage

You might want to read Al Jazeera's spin on thigs - they see this tied into the Arab Spring. I can't find the NPR story I heard this morning, but here's a link to their coverage.

SRS


03 Oct 11 - 04:28 PM (#3233258)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox

I saw copies of the wall street journal online - the first stated that police had forced protesters on to the bridge where they then arrested them ... for being on the bridge ... this tallied with eye witness testimony ...

a later version, 20 minutes to be precise, omitted the police involvement in the move onto the bridge.

Corporate Media being economical with the truth ....

Blocking traffic? - only because thats where the police led them.

Police brutality has been an issue and i've been seeing a lot of reports about it over the last week or so.


03 Oct 11 - 05:33 PM (#3233295)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bill D

from Wash. Post...Sept.25


03 Oct 11 - 05:38 PM (#3233301)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

It is the American Spring... And a logical reaction to the corporate brown shirt Tea Party... It's about time... Have to check out what's happening locally...

B~


03 Oct 11 - 05:41 PM (#3233304)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lighter

CNN has also covered this from this beginning. And today it was one of their top stories.


03 Oct 11 - 05:42 PM (#3233306)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bill D

Why was it not on all front pages from the beginning? Perhaps there were other things in the world that needed the space. I don't assume that my idea of the "crucial news of the day" is shared by everyone. I use many sources for news...and pick what I want to read.

   Youu can get a pretty good idea of the range at http://news.google.com/


03 Oct 11 - 07:31 PM (#3233366)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Songwronger

I was disappointed to see the usual liberal attention seekers coming out to support this movement. Michael Moore, Sarandon, others. The media will now twist this into a "liberal" answer to the Tea Party.

The Tea Party started out as a true grassroots movement but was soon co-opted by the Republicans. The Democrats will now do the same to the Occupy Wall Street movement. This is how the people in power remain in power, by seizing grassroots movements and polarizing.

A more promising movement is the "Occupy the Fed" thing. Where the Occupy Wall Street movement is diffuse and non-specific, the Fed approach has true purpose.

Hopefully, after the media finishes dividing people into the the Democratic/Wall Street and the Republican/Tea Party factions, both will be able to focus on the Fed.


03 Oct 11 - 08:39 PM (#3233398)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Etan

I was with Occupy Wall Street on Saturday and Sunday, and I took part in the march across the bridge. It was a setup. I thought we were being allowed (and directed) to cross the bridge on the roadway. Luckily, I got away before they finished putting up the nets. NY Times reporters on the ground agreed with my view of events.

If you have questions that I can answer, I will.

BTW: I've brought my banjo down during good weather. My new version of "White House Blues" was well received. I've been talking to a few people here about creating an updated "Which Side Are You On". Banjos are great for playing louder than traffic noise, but shouting lyrics over it all is a bit tough on the throat.

If you are in the metro New York area, let's get together for some radical picking and singing this coming weekend. PM me with your email address if you would like to arrange things.

-- Etan


03 Oct 11 - 10:14 PM (#3233417)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus

I'm baffled. I know what the 60s an 70s protesters were hoping to achieve, but this one is beyond me. What action (or actions)are they hoping for from Wall Street? Picketing Congess would seem to be more to the point.


03 Oct 11 - 10:22 PM (#3233421)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

This is what grassroots look like, Dick... There are a number of issues that all seem to agree on... Wall Street's risk being socialized while every one else twisting in the wind, for starters...

B~


03 Oct 11 - 10:22 PM (#3233422)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

Songwronger, the only place we differ on our view regarding the whole thing is this: the Tea Party never WAS a grassroots movement. It always had big bucks behind it.

I expect the Dems will do their best to co-opt this response. However, I think people are really Fed up, Tea'd off and the more it spreads the better off we all will be. I don't want a damned thing to do with either main party. I feel that way about this country's main parties, also. Too much bullsh#t for far too long from all of them.

##########################################

Etan: please post the lyrics to your version of WHB here, would ya? Love to read them. (S'what I forgot to say earlier.)

B


04 Oct 11 - 02:23 AM (#3233455)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

I looked at all the visual 'news' media footage I could check out, and this is what I came up with....

..a bunch of young punks, who don't know jack shit about what they are doing, but have been whipped up by some manipulating shills, pretending to care. Anything to get Americans to immolate, the uprisings we see on the news, in the Mideast, and turn against each other, and that will allow the government to crack down, on us all, implementing all the police state crap, that they've just been waiting for an excuse, to do, for a long fucking time! THIS IS CONTRIVED...and bullshit!
If they wanted to march, and/or if they knew what they were really marching about, they'd be in Washington!
Most of these little punks look like they haven't even been out of the bathroom, counting their new pubic hairs with tweezers, and experienced anything in life, to even know what they are doing!..
....and any clowns in here, who are supportive of them, aren't spending enough time working on their music...and just want to relive their stupid youth...doing equally stupid bullshit!

Think I was clear, enough?....

Oh, and fuck the 'extension of the Arab Spring' shit! that is more nonsense, to make it appear to be some gigantic wonderful thing..that it isn't!
Peace,
GfS


04 Oct 11 - 09:49 AM (#3233641)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bill D

Hidden deeply in your message, GfS, I seem to detect an indication that you somehow disapprove of the protesters' motives, techniques and basic philosophy, and that you won't be going down to join them. It's SO useful to read a deep, sensitive analysis of the movement with such clearly expressed non-partisan views.


04 Oct 11 - 10:06 AM (#3233646)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

You got it, Bill... She's a right winger at heart...

But never mind her...

We have our own chapter up in Charlotte, NC, that is going to meet Saturday at 3:00... I'm scheduled to compete in a regional blues challenge Saturday not too far from the meeting place but don't have my time slot yet... Hopefully I'll be able to do both...

No matter... I will get involved with the Charlotte chapter...

BTW, progressives have been waiting 40 years for something to fire them up that is more comprehensive that the anti-war protests of 2002... This one has a lot of meat 'n 'tators to it and will end up exposing the real problems that unregulated and corrupted capitalism has created... 30 years of working class decline, education decline, infrastructure decline, public health decline, moral decline and increased levels of poverty, infant mortality, unemployment, underemployment and income disparity tells *US* that Reaganomics works only for the corrupt and wealthy...

I have predicted here at Mudcat just what we are seeing... The revolution is "on" and people will see the alternative to the corporate puppet Tea Partiers and see that what is really being said is that what the US is lacking is justice...

B~


04 Oct 11 - 10:35 AM (#3233657)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

GfS: That comment--if it may be interpreted as one--about the Wall Street protesters is quite supercilious.

The people you denigrate are trying. You ain't. End of story.


04 Oct 11 - 11:16 AM (#3233684)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton

Be sensible guys....America is a deeply conservative nation, and that is what makes its people strong.

A collection of new agers and students will never rock the systen no matter how bad a state it is in.....cannon fodder!

You want to change the system, you have to carry the MAJORITY with you ....Sarah was your best chance, but you blew it....maybe you dont really want it?


04 Oct 11 - 11:38 AM (#3233696)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Stilly River Sage

America isn't one thing, Ake, you're seeing the corporate outwardly propelled face conveyed by mainstream media. If you lived here you'd know that.

GfS, if you recall, the first hits on Sept 11 were on the financial district in New York City. Though they also targeted the Pentagon and the White House, they saw these as equal. I think the NY movement today makes perfect sense.

Songwronger, the Koch brothers are behind the tea party, just like Richard Mellon Scaife was the one behind the Whitewater "scandal" of the Clinton years. He manufactured it.

Etan, keep reporting, please.

One wonders when MoveOn.org will push out more pages helping this OccupyWallStreet group. It's a natural for them, they're covering it, but I don't see much chatter in their social media. They're probably trying to not make this a left-wing movement because it could be off-putting to some supporters, despite the predictions above.

SRS


04 Oct 11 - 01:48 PM (#3233775)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus

I'm certainly not a Tea Partier nor a supporter of Wall Street's activities, but it seems to me that a protest should have specific objectives, and the protesting should be addressed to those who can help achieve those objectives.


04 Oct 11 - 01:50 PM (#3233777)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

If any of you have seen the 'protester's' demands, then you'd know, that these are lunatics, stirred up by bigger lunatics....but because it is 'fashionable', to be a lunatic, I guess you think it is quite alright....because being a 'FAR left' lunatic is the only way stupid and ugly people can get ANY attention!...otherwise, you'd just ignore them, and call them a name, and withdraw into your own little lunatic world.
The goal is to create unrest, so the corrupt sons of bitches can crack down on people that normally would be pissed off, at 'crackdowns'. This is contrived to cause a problem, so that a 'solution' can be proposed, and forced upon us.(sorta like the 'Fast and Furious' concoction).
How can people be so blind and stupid, too. At least Ray Charles, Stevie Wonder, and Jose Feliciano, we able to develop extraordinary skills, and sensitivities with their blindness....but this other crap, is for the utmost in stupidity!
Lap it up, it's this administration's most effective work!..The answer of course, will be mineral and oil being the standard, for the globalist elite, to trade, and microchips for the populace!....complete with 'termination' micro-processors...and death, if you refuse to take it. Economy should collapse this spring, if all goes as PLANNED!...Hey! Maybe Obama will suspend the elections, and then he can have another chance to extend his 'generosity' for another indeterminate term! ....but wasn't that the point? Then he and his globalist banking buddies will own you all, lock, stock and barrel!.....Oh, wait a minute, you had to sell your barrel to buy water???

GfS
Sounds like fun to me!


04 Oct 11 - 01:57 PM (#3233783)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Richard Bridge

Late in the year for cuckoos, surely.


04 Oct 11 - 02:03 PM (#3233793)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

Fascinating!

Everybody's "blind and stupid" except Guest from Sanity.

FROM sanity, indeed!!

Don Firth


04 Oct 11 - 02:04 PM (#3233794)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bill D

Some cuckoos are extremely hardy and stay around when they find a place that feeds & tolerates them.


04 Oct 11 - 02:15 PM (#3233799)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Loud sing cuckoo!

Grassroots? Time for fall cleanup.


04 Oct 11 - 02:57 PM (#3233822)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: gnu

Q... did ya see the coverage of their chant on Wall Street? "What do we want? We're not really sure! When do we want it? Now!"


04 Oct 11 - 03:10 PM (#3233827)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Don 'The Argumentative Know Nothing': "Everybody's "blind and stupid" except Guest from Sanity.
FROM sanity, indeed!!
Don Firth"

Don, there are a lot of people, other than me, who know what you don't see...or what you are not willing to look at.

Enough said.


04 Oct 11 - 03:25 PM (#3233833)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

Hmm! I thought "Babble-onians" had faded into the mists of history.

Don Firth


04 Oct 11 - 03:27 PM (#3233835)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton

SRS.....I have a very good friend with dual nationality and an interest in politics.......I know rather more about USA and the national perception than you think.

I think the American (left) would like to see a European/UK social and political model in place.......bad mistake, you have retained individual independence.....you do not see providing for yourself and your family as a penance....you do not believe the world owes you a living.

The American people are truly amazing, they can still show the world the way forward, but not through a trough of socialist/capitalist porage.


04 Oct 11 - 04:05 PM (#3233853)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

So Ake, you being an 'outsider looking in', with no personal agenda at stake, would you say the 'left' is being voluntarily ignorant, and therefore vulnerable to manipulative lies?....or am I off base, here?

I'm open.....

GfS


04 Oct 11 - 04:29 PM (#3233867)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton

No GfS I think you understand the situation well.

The "liberals" are a huge problem, their ideology of evolutionary socialism within the capitalist system is deep rooted, and they are prepared to grasp any straws in the wind to support them.

The election of Mr Obama was a typical example...a nod towards racial equality, but they failed to take on board that their token black man was steeped in Chicago capitalist politics an turned out to be a very divisive figure.....exactly what was planned by the "string pullers"
Change needs unity and in the USA folks will only unite under the banner of independence and good old fashioned common sense, agrass roots movement like the Tea Party could have been the mixing bowl for unity, but the short sighted dogma bound left branded them terrorists and are now reduced to fighting their battles through idealistic kids and wrinkled hippies.

A revolution in America will require a tactical retreat from what is laughingly referred to as "the left".

(Said as one who has marched and sometimes fought on the real left)


04 Oct 11 - 04:59 PM (#3233885)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp

It's not surprisin' that they don't know what they want, considerin' they been led astray and fed a diet of useless propaganda and misleadin' commercial BS for their entire lives. You take the average human being now, put him in a forest with no cellphone, and he's totally lost. That speaks for itself, don't it? They been completely disempowered by the crazy social conditions they was born in.

- Chongo

p.s. What they really want is peace of mind and a secure sense of bein' in control of and able to manage their own lives adequately. They also want an honest system in place and a fair break for everyone. How they are gonna get all that remains a mystery...they sure as hell ain't gonna get it from Wall Street or from the stiffs in suits that they elected to govern them.


04 Oct 11 - 05:11 PM (#3233893)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

GfS.

Ake.

And a monkey!

(Why are readers of this thread smiling?)

Don Firth


04 Oct 11 - 05:16 PM (#3233898)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk

Because they LIKE monkeys! ;-D That's why.

(reminder, though: chimps are not monkeys)


04 Oct 11 - 05:36 PM (#3233910)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,number 6

"Occupy Wall Street" Unaired Fox Footage

biLL


04 Oct 11 - 05:42 PM (#3233913)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton

Well in the last few post we have had a wide selection of wildlife.
A hawk, a gnu, a chimp and a weasel.
and of course Myself and Sanity.


04 Oct 11 - 05:51 PM (#3233918)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Akenaton, As you know, I'm very articulate regarding my position. That being said, I think that your post, in reply to my question to you, ..well..I don't know if I could have said it better myself!
Thank you! Bravo!..and WELL SAID!

Warmest Regards!

Guest from Sanity


04 Oct 11 - 06:20 PM (#3233940)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: gnu

"weasel"? Who?


04 Oct 11 - 06:25 PM (#3233946)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk

It was a stealth weasel. You don't see them coming. You don't see them going.


04 Oct 11 - 06:53 PM (#3233962)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

"As you know, I'm very articulate regarding my position."

Not that I've seen. On ANY of the threads you've posted on, GfS. Other than that you hate Obama's guts. You also hate anything vaguely resembling what you consider to be "liberal" (often displaying that you don't really know what the liberal position IS), yet you claim not to be conservative. You just hate everything.

Yet, several times I (and others) have asked you just where you're coming from and you respond with snotty remarks and insults.

"Ain't nothin' in the middle-of-the-road 'cept a yaller stripe and a dead skunk!!"   --Old folk saying.

Don Firth


04 Oct 11 - 06:54 PM (#3233965)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Stilly River Sage

There's a helluva lot of sniping and personal attack muddying the topic of this thread.

The "liberals" are a huge problem, their ideology of evolutionary socialism within the capitalist system is deep rooted, and they are prepared to grasp any straws in the wind to support them.

Ake, the problem in America is that people want all of the services and amenities of an advanced nation (health care, good food, safe drugs, safe roads and bridges, reliable planes, trains, and automobiles, good schools, good teachers, and much more) but they're not willing to pay for it. All of these various state tax revolts and federal GOP attempts to kill agencies and programs are revolting to liberals who understand that everyone has to pay their share, and the government has to lead the way in civil projects using tax dollars. And while mainstream middle class America does pay its taxes, they probably aren't paying as much as they should, and the rich and industry aren't paying any where near their share because of tax loopholes and exceptions, yet they use and impact all of those services and amenities also. The rich ARENT'T making jobs, they're just busy being idle as far as most of the rest of us can tell.

It should be illegal for local politicians to bargain away all tax supports in their communities, offering financial incentives to lure industries to their area. They push the tax burden (for what is now increased demand) onto everyone else to prop up that company, to cover the road and school and hospital taxes industry isn't paying, etc. But many communities do it, hoping that jobs alone and those new taxpayers will be enough to make things alright. It's an absurd way to do business.

The Occupy Wallstreet group may appear disorganized, but the voices we hear are clear, smart, and civil - something lacking in our politics for a long time. They are beginning to be heard as that spontaneous group identifies leaders. Those of you who are dismissing it, and in particular those of you who don't even live in the U.S., yet have such an apparently clear vision of how things should be here, should just sit on it for a while.

More power to them.

SRS


04 Oct 11 - 06:58 PM (#3233970)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk

Oh, come on, Don. He doesn't hate everything. To say so is just foolish hyperbole. GfS has made it plain in a great many posts that he loves music, and has posted numerous links to music videos of the music he loves.

Or she loves. As the case may be.

It is also clear that she (or he) loves his (or her) country...much as the rest of you do. You just can't agree on what to do about it, that's all. You do agree on some of the problems, but you can't seem to get together on solutions.

Mind you, solutions to a mess this big are almost impossible to even find, so I'm not surprised you can't agree on them.


04 Oct 11 - 07:55 PM (#3233986)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

Little Hawk, I was talking about GfS's POLITICAL position (or lack thereof).

Yes, he/she says he/she loves music, okay. Jolly good! He/she probably also likes filet mignon, going to movies, ice cream, etc., etc.

Loves the country? Odd way of showing it. PERSUASION is undoubtedly the best political tool, but instead of trying to state a position CLEARLY (which he/she has been asked about repeatedly, but repeatedly dodges the issue), he/she responds to any questions or disagreements with attacks on the questioner, loaded with insults about the questioner's intelligence, knowledge, honesty, and toilet habits.

This is not the way to persuade people of the validity of one's position.

Don Firth


04 Oct 11 - 08:08 PM (#3233992)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

What Don said...

GfinS says that the Fed should be shut down??? That is a very irresponsible and radical position... When I have questioned her about the ramifications of shutting down the Fed or basic economic theory she seems to have no answers... What she does have when asked to back up her positions with facts is one of two defenses... Attack the questioner or post a music video...

I mean, both can be entertaining but neither show much depth of understanding about some rather basic stuff...

B~


04 Oct 11 - 08:12 PM (#3233993)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Stilly River Sage

There is a great deal of intellectual sympathy with the Wall Street Occupation elsewhere in the country. Will it trickle through to the less acute in the population, those who are victims of Wall Street bankers but who have been convinced or frightened by the GOP into voting for candidates who don't support their best interests, who shill for rich industries and bankers?

SRS


04 Oct 11 - 10:59 PM (#3234069)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

Read GfS's remark on Bobert's cat thread, LH, then come back and sing his praises.


04 Oct 11 - 11:12 PM (#3234075)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

How can a guy be so 'sensitive' to a cat, and so insensitive to the thousands who are losing their jobs, homes and hope?...and support the one who is expanding wars, fraudulent bailouts, and policies of hardships on this country??
Beats me.
I thought the humor might bring a smile to him...not a nervous breakdown.....but then maybe his cat was a Democrat, too.
GfS


04 Oct 11 - 11:17 PM (#3234078)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Chinese tacos, GfinS, is an insane and insensitive remark...

Go f yourself...

Bye, again... You really need serious counseling...

B~


04 Oct 11 - 11:24 PM (#3234082)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

From Ringo Starr:

.."It don't come easy,
You know it don't come easy.

It don't come easy,
You know it don't come easy.

Got to pay your dues if you wanna sing the blues,
And you know it don't come easy.
You don't have to shout or leap about,
You can even play them easy.

Forget about the past and all your sorrows,
The future won't last,
It will soon be over tomorrow...."

Channel it into your next gig!

GfS


05 Oct 11 - 12:51 AM (#3234115)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk

The cat comment was mean, 999, no doubt about it. Other than that, I have no particular bone to pick with GfS....but if I was determined to go on a personal vendetta against this person (with whom I've had some interesting telephone conversations, and therefore probably know a bit better than the rest of you do)...well, THEN I'm sure that the cat comment alone would be sufficient excuse for me to damn GfS for all eternity. (I'm being satirical when I say that...I don't wish to damn anyone for all eternity)

Anyway I'm not on such a vendetta. I know GfS reasonably well outside of this forum, and I know that although Gfs is not a perfect human being...and did make an insensitive remark about Bobert's cat...that is not the whole story and entirety of who GfS is.

GfS is an interesting character, an original thinker, and cannot be easily defined as the stereotypical rightwing monster that people here mistakenly imagine GfS to be. Not by a long shot.

I trust you know that I am firmly on the political Left, correct? I have been all my life. This does not blind me to gross stupidity and hypocrisy and lazy thinking and blind prejudice and deep dishonesty when it occurs on the Left which it often does..just as it does on the Right, but wearing a different mask of righteous fury. People on the Left are guilty of lazy thinking too...just like people are on the Right. GfS has criticized George Bush and the Bush administration stringently in the past, as well as criticizing Obama and his administration, and the banks, and the major corporations. No one here even notices when GfS criticizes Bush or various other people on the Right...but y'all go nuts when GfS criticizes Obama or the Democrats. Funny thing about that. People only seem to notice when their own ox is being gored.

GfS is not a perfect human devoid of all "sin", but is also not the awful stereotype Right Wing loonie you imagine. Not in the least. I know this from direct experience, accordingly I don't put the absolute worst possible interpretation on whatever GfS happens to say in some post here....but several of you do. And that is why nothing GfS says will ever satisfy you. You don't want to be satisfied, you just want to prove that GfS is the evil person you've decided you want GfS to be...to justify your state of anger.

That's a closed loop, like a snake eating its own tail, nothing good coms of it, and nothing I can say will change it, and I know that...so (shrug) I just wasted a whole bunch of keystrokes, didn't I?

C'est la vie. At least I got to express myself, and that's about as much as anyone here is ever going to get from indulging in their daily bit of hoo-hah on this forum. So my advice is: don't take it all so damn seriously. It'll only cause you a lot of pointless stress if you do. I'd rather be happy than be (supposedly) "right" at the expense of someone else on the other end on an internet connection.


05 Oct 11 - 03:05 AM (#3234130)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton

I would like to agree with you SRS, but I'm afraid that in the real world, the system (Capitalism) rules....everyone and everything is subserviant.

What we are seeing in the West, is a consequence of unregulated Capitalism......BUT, to serve the purposes of the nation, economic growth must be engendered, and expanded.....for ever.

The number one rule in Capitalism, is that we must keep producing and consuming wealth.
The truth is, that the system has become unsustainable, and will remain so until our standard of living has dropped to a level where we are once again globally competitive.

This of course will be unacceptable to us, our children and possibly grandchildren.
There is no way round this state of affairs, other than to completely reform society....and that is the difficult bit.
All our generation can do is make a start on the road by pointing out the terminal faults and contraditions which have become apparent in our present economic system.

The left needs to make a serious attempt to reach out to the coservative majority, both in the US and the UK and forget about the political dogma which has divided us for so long.

And that means stop pushing social policies which make division inevitable.


05 Oct 11 - 03:10 AM (#3234131)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Richard Bridge

I have never seen a rational post from Fugitive from Sanity, and its posts generally display either absurd disconnects from reality or a total disregard for those who would be harmed by the evils it seems to support.

SRS's recent posts here are however models of good sense.


05 Oct 11 - 03:11 AM (#3234132)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton

"Stealth Weasel".......:0)


05 Oct 11 - 09:41 AM (#3234260)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

Stilly has class, insight and brains. She does her homework regarding issues. On more than a few occasions I've messaged her over the years to get her take on stuff, and she's been forthright and honest. I don't always see things her way, but I have always respected her view.

'sides, I ain't gonna argue with no one lives through a Texas heatwave. I can think of easier though not faster ways to meet my maker.

#######################################

My hope is that the Democrats don't get their hands on this protest, because it's never had a thing to do with them.


05 Oct 11 - 01:14 PM (#3234351)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Little Hawk: "The cat comment was mean, 999, no doubt about it. Other than that, I have no particular bone to pick with GfS....but if I was determined to go on a personal vendetta against this person (with whom I've had some interesting telephone conversations, and therefore probably know a bit better than the rest of you do)...well, THEN I'm sure that the cat comment alone would be sufficient excuse for me to damn GfS for all eternity. (I'm being satirical when I say that...I don't wish to damn anyone for all eternity)"

Why, It was so 'bad' that Bobert had it taken off the thread, about the cat, and re-posted it!!!.....after it was gone!
It was not intended to be 'mean', but rather to bring a wry grin on his face. Apparently, it wasn't taken that way.....but then, neither was:
"General Electric is planning to move its 115-year-old X-ray division from Waukesha , Wis. , to Beijing . In addition to moving the headquarters, the company will invest $2 billion in China and train more than 65 engineers and create six research centers. This is the same GE that made $5.1 billion in the United States last year. but paid no taxes-the same company that employs more people overseas than it does in the united States .

So let me get this straight. President Obama appointed GE Chairman Jeff Immelt to head his commission on job creation (job czar). Immelt is supposed to help create jobs. I guess the President forgot to tell him in which country he was supposed to be creating those jobs.


If this doesn't show you the total lack of leadership of this President, I don't know what does. Think about it before you buy a GE product.


It really shows the complete take over of our Democratic government by corporates and bankers. Until we reverse the criminal Supreme Court, Citizens United decision, that holds that corporations are people and money is speech, and fund election campaigns with public money, to stop the corporate and banker crooks from corrupting our elected officials, we will continue to be subjected to policies that serve the best interests of the biggest crooks, rather than the people, of this country.

Just so you know, Justices Kennedy, Roberts, Alito, Scalia and Thomas, were the 5 that held for the decision. Justices Stevens, Ginsburg, Breyer and Sotomayor, held against. This decision allows corporations, even foreign owned multinational corporations, from pouring unlimited, unaccounted, and unattributed monies into our political system to influence voters not just in elections, but also in referendums. They can purchase 100's of millions of dollars worth of commercial advertising to promote a candidate or a bill or destroy a candidate or bill.

If any further rigging were required, the above criminal activity can be combined with the fact that we are increasingly adopting electronic voting machines that have been repeatedly and publicly hacked in demonstrations, in as little as 15 minutes. But since the machines themselves are controlled by corporations, the hacking factor is pretty much redundant. No other democratic country uses them, for this reason. Might be worth considering the factors in play, by which we insist on using them.

In short, big money owns us lock, stock and barrel. And if big money determines slaves overseas should do our jobs, then that's the way it's going to be. But don't worry when Americans get desperate enough to work for SFA(Sweet F**k All); then the corporate assholes might just bring some jobs back here.

(As long as this IS the 'Wall Street Protesters...' thread....

GfS


05 Oct 11 - 01:26 PM (#3234362)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Richard Bridge

Good heavens, I thought it was going to be the first - but then it all went pear-shaped.


05 Oct 11 - 01:32 PM (#3234367)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Oh, and there is this:

A few changes I personally would like to see should "We the People" actually get a voice in a land where "corporations are people, my friend" and "money is speech".

1. Public funding of elections.

Take the private and corporate money right out of the equation. Our elected representatives will then be required to work for ALL the American people, and not just for those who have backed and funded their campaigns.

2. Citizens United decision should be revoked.

Corporations are NOT people and money should NOT be entitled to speech, and the 5 Supreme Court judges who supported this corrosive decision should be investigated to see how they or their family members directly benefited from this action.

3. All legislative safeguards that have been dismantled over the last 30 years should be re-examined and exposed to the light of day.

Anti-monopoly legislation and especially Glass-Spiegel (which restricted banks to actual banking practices and prevented them from behaving like drunken sailors at a Las Vegas casino, which we now know was the direct cause of the US and global economic meltdown of 2007) should be updated and reinstated.
We have a total lack of real competition in major areas of our economy, this must be addressed and "too big to fail" eliminated. All legislation that rewards moving American jobs overseas must be revoked and legislation that does the opposite passed. All Free Trade agreements must also be reexamined in the light of saving and recreating American jobs.

4. All monies drained from Social Security and Medicare for other purposes should be refunded and locked in place

Successive governments have siphoned money from these programs to fund other, non productive activities, Engaging in unfunded wars drained much of Social Security, legislation that benefited corporate criminals only, such as Medicare Advantage and Medicare Part D, which were giveaways of taxpayer money to insurance and pharmaceutical corporations, put Medicare in troubled waters (intentionally, to justify eventual privatization). These programs could be put right by a tiny transaction tax on Wall Street trading. Once misappropriated taxpayer funds have been restored to these programs, the accounts should be locked to all purposes except those originally intended.

5. Revoke the Federal Reserve charter.

Our democratically elected government should be responsible for issuing our own legal tender, backed by the "full faith and credit" just as it is now, but without the debt to the bankster gangsters. I would prefer our government, open to oversight and answerable to the people, over a bunch of secretive banksters, with no oversight at all, any day. Could they possibly do worse than a private cabal, that we recently learned, thanks to Sen. Bernie Sanders, had secretly passed out 12 trillion dollars to their international bankster friends, including the Bank of Libya. 12 trillion dollars of unsecured loans, a debt that you and I, the American taxpayer, are on the hook for. Could YOU ever imagine going to your local bank and obtaining an unsecured loan, not likely.

6. Prosecute those responsible.

I believe we still have prosecutors in this country, you have to wonder "why aren't the bankster gangsters who crashed the global economy, and profited obscenely from it, being prosecuted for the demonstrable fraud that they committed?".

Many other good things would naturally follow, for our country and our people, the single, but incredibly difficult act, of prying the corrupting hands of corporate crooks and bankster gangsters, out of our government. A government that was meant to be "Of, By, and For the People", ALL the people, not just the 1% at the top.

We are now at a point where this is doable,not for nothing do polls show that fully 82% of Americans disapprove, 62% of that 82% "strongly disapprove", of the performance of our corrupted congress. (The 14% that approved may suggest just how large a number of Washington lobbyist's are employed by the corporates)"

Hmmm, does that sound 'right wing' or 'left wing'?
Who cares??

GfS


05 Oct 11 - 01:33 PM (#3234369)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk

That happens to some women after 30....


05 Oct 11 - 01:35 PM (#3234371)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,petecockermouth

all the best to the folk raising spirits and hope in the states. here in england we can only watch with horror what happens in your country while sickened by the fact that the entire world economy is run for the benefit of a few billionaires, mostly in your country. any voices raised in protest about this deserve all our thanks and support.(by the way, liberal(it means easy-going) in the uk is the default political description of most people. i live in the north (and the same is true of wales and particularly scotland) and can honestly say i have not had more than half a dozen conversations with any right wing or conservative people (far less republican/t party - i am afraid on this size of the pond sees them as weird, greedy and dangerous) in the last 30 years. most of us can see where our interests lie and instinctively understand that the rich and well-connected are engaged in a class war-stealing from ordinary folk the world over. usually, we just moan but let them get on with it -a fightback is long overdue so we aren't all dragged down by the death throes of the capitalist experiment. to the barricades, citizens!
(p.s. for americans -cockermouth is the name of my town - a town as delightful as it sounds)


05 Oct 11 - 01:36 PM (#3234373)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Richard, the connecting reference was linked to the Chinese...as in 'Chinese tacos' and other activities in China, from the corporate Democrats.
Have an apricot.

GfS


05 Oct 11 - 01:52 PM (#3234384)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Petecockermouth: "...(by the way, liberal(it means easy-going) in the uk is the default political description of most people."

In this country, 'liberal' no longer means that. Instead, they have been swayed and corrupted, to be supportive of the very billionaires that you have spoken of. So, if one 'attacks' the billionaires, but those billionaires SAY they support the programs of this administration, which in turn are promoting the very thing you pointed out, the 'not-so-bright' 'liberal' common folk, think you are attacking THEM!....no matter how obvious it is that they are duped beyond belief!
Here, the Democrats and Republicans support virtually the same thing, depending on who wraps it in whatever given rhetoric, that they can muster public support for.....long enough for them to en-act bullshit on us all!.....only to find out, that it doesn't work...then they blame it on each other!!!!!
We have become a divided nation, over the corrupt practices of their foul agenda!!!...which is total control over every aspect of our lives, and the stripping away of our freedoms!

Does this make sense to you, from your vantage point?

GfS


05 Oct 11 - 04:10 PM (#3234463)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,petecockermouth

here too there is nothing much to choose between the 2/3 main political parties. both entirely in the pocket of big business, both as likely to support the illegal wars waged in the interests of capitalism. while labour start from the ideal of being on the side of ordinary people their record is shameful, in recent times being 'relaxed' about the wealthy stealing vast amounts from the rest of us while inequality just soars and common decency and solidarity is degraded. the conservatives do not even try to pretend they are working for everyone -they just supervise the acclumation of vast amounts of capital to big business and individuals. evil scum. anyway, i'm off down the pub

peace and love and revolution

pete


05 Oct 11 - 04:28 PM (#3234473)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Richard Bridge

"Liberal" has different and pretty specific meanings in different contexts.

As to FFS's second attempt at a rational post
1. Agreed. Electoral reform should have been on the agenda last erection but only Kucinich went near it.
2. Yes, Citizens' United is probably wrong. Disclosure is the key, and you haven't got it.
3. Largely agreed. Maybe not all reinstated, but certainly considered for re-application. Funding of those voting for the repeals should be investigated - I suspect fraud and bribery. After the first sentence you wander off into dangerous realms, however.
4. You need a welfare state. What you propose is not enough, but it might be a start. I don't know how to lock it save by amendment of the constitution.
5. Unclear to me
6. Yes.

However, you overlook something even more vital - control of the media. The FCC balance requirement should be reinstated and applied to print and internet media too (excluding nutters like creationists) and there should be controls on concentration of media power - the present media are the reasons so many Americans are morons and vote for moronic things: they have been assiduously trained to be so. It is not the people, it is not the genetics, it is the reservation of decent education for the rich and accurate information for those already privileged.


05 Oct 11 - 05:23 PM (#3234516)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

The Wall Street protests are only the rumble of thunder off in the distance. The storm is definitely on its way, and, unlike the Tea Party, it is independent of the current corrupt political parties.   CLICKY #1.

This is also worth a look. A sort of "Manifesto" of those involved in the protests.   CLICKY #2. Click on the arrow to the right of each heading for further details.

This has to have something going for it because it is already being viciously attacked on Right Wing web sites as "Socialism!!" and "This would ruin the country!"

But—measures like this are fundamentally how FDR dug the country out of the Great Depression back in the Thirties. And this, of course, makes the Right Wing barf on their shoes because they've worked all this time to rescind the various measures and regulations that FDR put in place to end the Depression and prevent a recurrence. But the Right Wing wants to do the very same things that brought about the Depression in the first place. And the measure of their success is that they've managed to bring us to our present predicament.

"Those who will not learn from history. . . ."

Don Firth


05 Oct 11 - 06:02 PM (#3234538)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

Good post, Don.

I heard today that various unions are adding their voices to it, but unfortunately some Democrats are also. I hope they are there as people, not Democrats.

I saw the same thing after McCarthy won the first primary in New Hampshire. All of a sudden Kennedy's people saw a safe ride. They hadn't had the cajones to do it first, but they were happy to wait and see what happened with Eugene. That, imo, was simply opportunism. I hope that even if the Dems try to co-opt this, that the protests continue anyway.

ymmv


05 Oct 11 - 06:16 PM (#3234544)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Buddy Roemer, former Louisiana governor and current Republican presidential candidate who is being blackballed by the media and the Republican Party has endorsed Occupy Wall Street...

BTW, I will be attending the Charlotte, NC "Occupy Wall Street" assembly this Saturday...

As for the other Repubs dissing the movement??? That's a good thing... It would worry me if they weren't...

B~


05 Oct 11 - 06:17 PM (#3234545)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk

La palabra (the word) is "cojones", hombre. You say "cajones" een Mexico and they will laugh! CO-HO-NES!!!

As in...."Breeng me hees cojones!"


05 Oct 11 - 06:20 PM (#3234547)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

Great, Bobert. But remember, songs don't stop projectiles or nightsticks.

Course, bangin' one of them sticks against your head would be like taking coal to Newcastle.

You be careful. Y'ain't 20 anymore.


05 Oct 11 - 09:20 PM (#3234618)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Don: "The Wall Street protests are only the rumble of thunder off in the distance. The storm is definitely on its way, and, unlike the Tea Party, it is independent of the current corrupt political parties.   CLICKY #1"

THAT is an absolutely FALSE statement. 'Move On', 'SEIU' and the Teamsters, are funding this. Who is 'Move On' and 'SEIU'?....George Soros!!!..He is the Koch Bros. equivalent, to the 'left'....even though he, himself, is a rabid capitalist!

More hypocrisy, and smoke and mirrors.

petecockermouth: "here too there is nothing much to choose between the 2/3 main political parties. both entirely in the pocket of big business, both as likely to support the illegal wars waged in the interests of capitalism."

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!! Same thing, on THIS side of the pond!...but at least YOU GET IT!!!!! The 'groupies' of the 'left' absolutely DO NOT see it!....and that's why there is such uninformed, semi-literate blathering going on here!!!

(They just hate it when I point that out to them!)

GfS

Regards!
GfS


05 Oct 11 - 09:56 PM (#3234624)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Thanks, brucie, but I've been waiting almost 4 decades for this... If they wanta bust on my head then that's the way it goes... Bust on it... It been busted on before... I don't gibe a shit... If my 92 year old mom could walk better than she'd offer her head for bustin', too...

I mean, we progressives are always gonna offer our heads for bustin' if at the end of the day we get justice and we have moved humanity forward...

Personally, I don't gibe a flyin' fig what they want to do to me... Been here an' done this...

I can't wait until Saturday... Just don't break my hands 'cause I gotta a blues challenge on Sunday...

B~


05 Oct 11 - 10:04 PM (#3234626)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,number 6

What's a 'blues challenge' ??

biLL


05 Oct 11 - 10:20 PM (#3234634)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Blues challenge: every regional blues society does an annual "challenge" to see who gets to represent them in Memphis for the International Blues Challenge (IBC) in February...

B~


05 Oct 11 - 10:28 PM (#3234637)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Well Bobert, as I suggested to you before, channel the death of your kitty, into the blues performance....it should come off well, cuz you be singin' da blues...with feelin'!

GfS


05 Oct 11 - 10:28 PM (#3234638)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,number 6

well .... then the best of luck to ya Bobert.

biLL ... :~)


05 Oct 11 - 10:30 PM (#3234640)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Stilly River Sage

THAT is an absolutely FALSE statement. 'Move On', 'SEIU' and the Teamsters, are funding this. Who is 'Move On' and 'SEIU'?....George Soros!!!..He is the Koch Bros. equivalent, to the 'left'....even though he, himself, is a rabid capitalist!

GfS, you can't see that Soros looks out for the little guy, while the Koch brothers look out for big industry and millionaires?

(They just hate it when I point that out to them!)

No, I think what they don't like is your choice of words and your tone of voice.

You notice how polite the Occupy Wall Street folks are? Let it be an example to you.

SRS


05 Oct 11 - 10:34 PM (#3234642)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Thank you, Magz.... What the Tea Party mentality folks don't understand is that OWS are folks who understand non-violence... The Tea Party??? Rednecks who don't get it...

We'll win...

B~


05 Oct 11 - 11:41 PM (#3234668)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

SRS, My tone of voice??????????????????????
Maybe its the tone you think I have, but that's all in your head..or how others have projected what that 'tone' is. I'm just letters on a screen...and Soros is NOT out for the 'little guy'. He is out for POWER, and using the 'little guy' to get it! Ask any Brit about how the pound was devalued...and who did it.

GfS

P.S. I misspoke earlier, it wasn't the Teamsters, it was the UAW, and the Teacher's Union,(AFT)...and this protesting, though the reasons may seem justified, the list of demands is completely nonsensical. if you'd like to go through them, I can easily show you why they don't make sense...(Though you may be able to do that by yourself). Check them out.


06 Oct 11 - 12:31 AM (#3234679)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Stilly River Sage

GfS - your word choices make the tone very clear. Very clear.

SRS


06 Oct 11 - 01:59 AM (#3234686)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

The unions are NOT the Democratic Party. Nor is George Soros, or for that matter, Warren Buffet. Not ALL billionaires are indifferent to the problems of those on the lower end of the financial spectrum. Bill Gates, no matter what you may think of Microsoft, has given away many billions since he got married and Melinda humanized him. Warren Buffet complaining that he's not being taxed enough. Ted Turner some years back gave away a third of his billions, saying "NOBODY needs THAT much money!"

The Wall Street protests WERE sparked through the internet and encouraged by organizations such as Move On and People for the American Way. Progression groups. This sort of political communication is the wave of the future.

That's the problem with those poor sods who are unable to think in anything but pigeon holes. That's the unmistakable mark of a--well, that's the "B-word," and Joe doesn't like it when people use it. So I won't.

Even if that's exactly the case.

Don Firth


06 Oct 11 - 04:01 AM (#3234700)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton

I've been through this many times in my long membership of the Communist Party.

You know what......It just makes you feel better, a minority(and you will always be a minority) standing up to injustice, but in reality it just makes matters worse, entrenching opinions on both sides....and that always means "worse" for the poor and underpriviliged.
The only way in which society can be changed in a meaningful way is through unity and in our case that means we shall almost certainly never see it....but our grandchildren might!
It means finding common ground with the people who are not politically motivated, who want a quiet life, a reasonable standard of living, a little freedom and a sensible lifestyle.

This may come as news to you guys, but the grass roots folks of America and Britian have no taste for Martyrdom..


06 Oct 11 - 08:17 AM (#3234773)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

This may come as news to you, ake...and Gfs...but what you are witnessing here is a Change, not finanical, or even political, but a whole Change of Life.

I've been trying to tell folks for YEARS that the world was heading for this, but everyone thought I was nuts..

This is NOT a Recession. This is a Global Meltdown. It is not going to get better, go back to 'normal' for normality is no longer out there, at present..

The financial systems have been screwed, not just by the Corrupt Corporate Bastards and Bankers, but also by The Quants, the Physicists who have taken over Wall Street...They have now created financial systems SO complicated that only they understand them, and at times, even they struggle to do so..The system has been imploding for years and has now reached Mega-Crisis Point.

So, where does that leave us?

Well, in Deep Shite, in many ways...and it's going to be rough, VERY rough, I fear, but....the Silver Lining is The Young People who are out there now Occupying Wall St and a whole lotta other places....

They now have an anger SO deep, a determination SO strong to turn this planet around that they WILL succeed. It may take a while, for these guys have trillions to protect themselves with, but soon they'll find their money counts for nothing.

People are sick and tired of it all. Their Corporate Bubble has burst bigtime...and the moment they raise interest rates, which of course, they WILL, putting millions at risk of losing their homes, their businesses, their jobs, even higher risk than we have at present, the entire modern way of life will start to implode bigtime.

It is why the politicians are so scared...
It is why the media is doing all it can to NOT report on what is happening....

They are shitting themselves, because they KNOW what is about to go down in the very near future...

And you know what? When it does, those police officers will change sides, for their jobs are gonna go too, despite the Corporate Bastards pouring money into the NYPD at present, to try to protect themselves...

The Young People are NOT going to give up on this one. They have nothing more to lose and everything to gain...

Life will change drastically and radically, exactly as the Hopi Indians have been predicting for decades..It is already happening right now...

So, you'd best get Spiritual, folks..learn to love your neighbour, for we are all going to have to depend on one another as never before, shortly...and that's a GOOD thing. This turmoil will bring Love back. It will get people talking to each other again, caring about one another..doing jobs for each other, where money is not needed...

We will start to look at our Planet, perhaps for the first time in decades, in a very different way, going back to Nature, dependant on Her once again...


When I went over to the 'Occupy Wall St' facebook page around 2 weeks back to show them support, tell them how proud I was of them all, I also asked for their help in stopping Brazil going ahead with the dreaded Belo Monte Dam...asking them to fight for Chief Raoni and his People..and asking them to join me over on the 'Support Chief Raoni' facebook page...

They came....

They came in their THOUSANDS, in hours, in days!   

And they came fuming that they knew NOTHING about Belo Monte, NOTHING about the Decimation of the Rainforest which is about to happen..NOTHING about the SIXTY other dams Brazil plans to build after Belo Monte, the world's third largest dam...

They knew nothing of the severe droughts and environmental damage caused by China's Three Gorges Dam (the biggest in the world)..nothing about how many good people are being murdered in The Amazon Rainforest at present....

They do now...

And they have spread that page around the world!!!

The internet is a mightly powerful tool, if used in the correct way..and there are now HUNDREDS of 'Occupy' pages on Facebook, with almost every major city in the USA having demonstrations...

The protestors are taking over the London Stock Exchange on 15th October...and you watch it start to spread like wildfire over here too...

We are living in extraordinary and tumultous times...for our Young People are feeling as Storm Tosssed and Battered as our Weather System is making our Planet feel...

Everything is doing what it is supposed to be doing, for a whole new way of life lies ahead...and a FAR better one....

So, hold on tight.....

And Bobz..you take good care of yourself. I'm REALLY proud of you, too! (((xxx)))


06 Oct 11 - 12:11 PM (#3234853)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

'Declaration of the Occupation of New York City'
As we gather together in solidarity to express a feeling of mass injustice, we must not lose sight of what brought us together. We write so that all people who feel wronged by the corporate ...forces of the world can know that we are your allies.

As one people, united, we acknowledge the reality: that the future of the human race requires the coopera...tion of its members; that our system must protect our rights, and upon corruption of that system, it is up to the individuals to protect their own rights, and those of their neighbors; that a democratic government derives its just power from the people, but corporations do not seek consent to extract wealth from the people and the Earth; and that no true democracy is attainable when the process is determined by economic power. We come to you at a time when corporations, which place profit over people, self-interest over justice, and oppression over equality, run our governments. We have peaceably assembled here, as is our right, to let these facts be known.

They have taken our houses through an illegal foreclosure process, despite not having the original mortgage.

They have taken bailouts from taxpayers with impunity, and continue to give Executives exorbitant bonuses.

They have perpetuated inequality and discrimination in the workplace based on age, the color of one's skin, sex, gender identity and sexual orientation.

They have poisoned the food supply through negligence, and undermined the farming system through monopolization.

They have profited off of the torture, confinement, and cruel treatment of countless nonhuman animals, and actively hide these practices.

They have continuously sought to strip employees of the right to negotiate for better pay and safer working conditions.

They have held students hostage with tens of thousands of dollars of debt on education, which is itself a human right.

They have consistently outsourced labor and used that outsourcing as leverage to cut workers' healthcare and pay.

They have influenced the courts to achieve the same rights as people, with none of the culpability or responsibility.

They have spent millions of dollars on legal teams that look for ways to get them out of contracts in regards to health insurance.

They have sold our privacy as a commodity.

They have used the military and police force to prevent freedom of the press.

They have deliberately declined to recall faulty products endangering lives in pursuit of profit.

They determine economic policy, despite the catastrophic failures their policies have produced and continue to produce.

They have donated large sums of money to politicians supposed to be regulating them.

They continue to block alternate forms of energy to keep us dependent on oil.

They continue to block generic forms of medicine that could save people's lives in order to protect investments that have already turned a substantive profit.

They have purposely covered up oil spills, accidents, faulty bookkeeping, and inactive ingredients in pursuit of profit.

They purposefully keep people misinformed and fearful through their control of the media.

They have accepted private contracts to murder prisoners even when presented with serious doubts about their guilt.

They have perpetuated colonialism at home and abroad.

They have participated in the torture and murder of innocent civilians overseas.

They continue to create weapons of mass destruction in order to receive government contracts.*

To the people of the world,

We, the New York City General Assembly occupying Wall Street in Liberty Square, urge you to assert your power.

Exercise your right to peaceably assemble; occupy public space; create a process to address the problems we face, and generate solutions accessible to everyone.

To all communities that take action and form groups in the spirit of direct democracy, we offer support, documentation, and all of the resources at our disposal.

Join us and make your voices heard!

*These grievances are not all-inclusive.


06 Oct 11 - 12:13 PM (#3234857)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

Keith Olberman reading the above statement


06 Oct 11 - 12:17 PM (#3234860)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

As 20,000 rally in New York alone....

"This is only getting....BIGGER!"



Hey, Corporate Bastards, Wanker Bankers, Corrupt Politicans and Quantifying Quants of Wall Street....If you treat people like shit, then you get shit thrown back at you. Just be grateful it's Peaceful Shit, where all your former workers and customers are whispering:

"We are NOT taking this ANY LONGER!"

But that whisper is being whispered by tens of thousands, and they will soon be HUNDREDS of thousands..

And The Whisper will become The ROAR!


06 Oct 11 - 12:28 PM (#3234868)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

Please sign and share, if you are standing beside these brave young people..and indeed, people of ALL ages now who are rallying to The Cause to take their lives BACK! :0)

Avaaz's 'The World Versus Wall Street' Petition

Taken from the above:

"To fellow citizens occupying Wall Street and peoples protesting across the world:

We stand with you in this struggle for real democracy. Together we can end the capture and corruption of our governments by corporate and wealthy elites, and hold our politicians accountable to serve the public interest. We are united - the time for change has come!"


06 Oct 11 - 01:32 PM (#3234895)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

Did you get all of that, GfS?

Not just Young People, Lizzie. Plenty of people my age (when the Big Bang occurred, I'm the guy who said, "What the hell was THAT!!?"), especially if we're old enough to remember how things were before Reagan gave the U. S. back to the Fat Cats, are totally fed up with the present situation.

There is an interesting line in Rafael Sabatini's historical novel, Scaramouche (set as the French Revolution was just about to start). "If the throne topples, it will be those who are nearest to it who will be crushed."

Don Firth


06 Oct 11 - 01:55 PM (#3234908)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton

X Factor politics......


06 Oct 11 - 02:01 PM (#3234917)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus

Wouldn't it make a great deal more sense to direct the protests at someone who is in a position to make changes? Wall street, certainly, won't.


06 Oct 11 - 02:05 PM (#3234921)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

Oh, Don..don't worry, I mentioned folks of 'all' ages in my post just above yours. :0) xx

LOADS of links on here..

The 'Occupy Wall St' Facebook page.....

Bruce, get yourself a Facebook page!! :0) x


06 Oct 11 - 02:08 PM (#3234924)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

Well, Dick..the 'Anonymous' guys have threatened to shut down the New York Stock Exchange on 10/10. Whether they will or not remains to be seen, for it could be a hoax, but..other times they've done this kind of thing.

'Anonymous' (which was born from the *brilliant* film 'V for Vendetta' is filled with guys with magical computer brains, who are pretty darn good at hacking into anything, should they so choose..

So, watch this space, as they say....


06 Oct 11 - 02:17 PM (#3234930)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk

It's difficult for the public to know how to respond to the present political state of the world, dick, seeing that the normal traditional voting process has been rendered null and void by lobbyists' money.

What are people to do when the political parties and the system are co-opted by major financial elites?

We've seen what they finally did in Egypt...but the Army is now running Egypt, and it seems likely that the people will in no way receive the genuine progressive changes they had hoped to secure by toppling Mr Mubarak (Who, after all, was just one man...you can remove the symbolic leader of a corrupt system...but does that really change the whole system? Probably not! It probably just renews itself under some new leaders.)

So what are people to do? Wall Street is a well known visual symbol of the financial elite and a gathering place for activities that relate to the doings of the financial elite.

Therefore it makes a certain amount of sense to do a Wall Street Protest, does it not? It's rather like the Parisian mob storming the Bastille, an outward symbol of oppression....but that was a violent protest. This one isn't, so far.

A public that feels robbed and disempowered and helpless will eventually rise up in some way. When the police and the army either join them...or stand aside and refuse to use force upon them...that is when the power elite may fall. What comes in the wake of that is anybody's guess.

It happened in the Soviet Union in '89. It happened in Egypt. It can happen here too.


06 Oct 11 - 02:18 PM (#3234931)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

Scenes from last night on Wall Street

And Ake...'X Factor Politics' ?

Hardly.

The X Factor is run by Corporate Bastards, who have used, and abused, the Music Industry for way too long. They have humiliated many people, deliberatly picking them for their *lack* of talent, knowing they'll be laughed at and ridiculed, all to get their 'ratings' up...They make artists sign highly dubious contracts too..

No, the people out there on the streets are against the very kind of folks who run these kind of programmes in the first place, dumbing people down, turning them into proles, making them think 'celebrity' is all-important, all-consuming...

X Factor Politics is what they are rebelling AGAINST!! They want REAL Politics, REAL Politicians, REAL Leaders, who are honest and true, brimming over with Integrity and Honour...



Good try though..... ;0)


06 Oct 11 - 03:32 PM (#3234973)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus

If any thinks that hackers shutting down the Stock Exchange will help reduce the economic inequities that are plaguing our economy, I'd love to hear an explanation of how.


06 Oct 11 - 03:48 PM (#3234983)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk

I doubt that anyone here does think that, so why even bring it up?


06 Oct 11 - 03:54 PM (#3234987)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Amos

What the Protestors believe.


06 Oct 11 - 04:36 PM (#3235005)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: gnu

Amos.... Keith Olbermann Reads... the truth.


06 Oct 11 - 05:21 PM (#3235023)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

Dick,

America is faced with a serious problem. Your politicians don't care about the people who voted them into office. People are fed up. People are angry. Read the manifesto Lizzie posted. Please give it a close read. People lost their homes and livelihoods and Wall Street was part of that rip-off. The rich did ok from it all, and people know that.

Closing down stock exchanges may not be the answer, but leaving them open sure as hell hasn't worked. The expression that fits this situation is this:

I'm so fu#kin' mad I don't know whether to sh#t, wind my watch or steal third.

People began to awake in the early 1980s when the first big economic slump occurred. People began to lose their voices. Neither Ottawa nor Washington cared. We all began to see that the game is about money and using money to keep people down. Gradually, with communication being available to the voiceless, people are coming together.

Playboys And Playgirls

Oh, ye playboys an' playgirls
Ain't a-gonna run my world
Ain't a-gonna run my world
Ain't a-gonna run my world
Ye playboys an' playgirls
Ain't a-gonna run my world
Not now or no other time.

You fallout shelter sellers
Can't get in my door
Can't get in my door
Can't get in my door
You fallout shelter sellers
Can't get in my door
Not now or no other time.

Your Jim Crow ground
Can't turn me around
Can't turn me around
Can't turn me around
Your Jim Crow ground
Can't turn me around
Not now or no other time.

The laughter in the lynch mob
Ain't a-gonna do no more
Ain't a-gonna do no more
Ain't a-gonna do no more
The laughter in the lynch mob
Ain't a-gonna do no more
Not now or no other time.

You insane tongues of war talk
Ain't a-gonna guide my road
Ain't a-gonna guide my road
Ain't a-gonna guide my road
You insane tongues of war talk
Ain't a-gonna guide my road
Not now or no other time.

You red baiters an' race haters
Ain't a-gonna hang around here
Ain't a-gonna hang around here
Ain't a-gonna hang around here
You red baiters an' race haters
Ain't a-gonna hang around here
Not now or no other time.

Ye playboys an' playgirls
Ain't a-gonna run my world
Ain't a-gonna run my world
Ain't a-gonna run my world
Ye playboys an' playgirls
Ain't a-gonna run my world
Not now or no other time.

Just a silly little song, but it's taking on new meaning. Do rational people really think that medications cost as much as pharmaceutical companies charge? Do rational people really think the meals served to US troops in the Iraq war were worth $18 a piece? Do rational people really believe that the fifty-or-so billion dollars unaccounted for in the Iraq war was spirited away by tooth fairies? Do rational people really think that when average people are stripped of everything they've worked for they will lay down and die or simply go away? The manifesto Lizzie posted IS the voice of the people, and the people are angry--angrier than Wall Street, Ottawa or Washington can imagine.

Fifty years ago one paycheck could support a family. Today, it takes two or three. Why is that? Ford mentioned that if average people could understand the banking system there'd be a revolution tomorrow. Tomorrow has come. IMO, it's late, but it's here.

Where was the main-stream media when people first went to Wall Street to protest? Who muzzled the papers, the TVs, the radios? And by what right? We've seen so many examples of manipulation, and having seen those examples we've turned our backs and ignored the obvious. The obvious is biting us all. The sickness called Capitalism can no longer be supported by the average person. And people are coming to realize that.

In a very pragmatic sense, shutting down stock exchanges won't change much. But leaving them open hasn't changed a damned thing. When ya got nothing, ya got nothing to lose. North America has lost the stabilizing influence of that thing called the middle class. It no longer exists. One job just doesn't cut it anymore. Families fell apart, kids left to fend for themselves for over two generations. Now we wonder why we've got problems.

The system that got us to this state is a system people do NOT trust, and why should they? Why should any of us? I think a door has been opened, and I don't know that it can be closed again. Frankly, I'm not sure it should.

Why are there no economically poor politicians? Why when very rich people say they are not being taxed enough do we ignore their statements? Why when stock market manipulation causes people to lose their homes do we not see our jails filled with the trash that did it to them? Why do we see inequities in our penal systems that have an over representation of native North Americans, people of colour, people from disenfranchised backgrounds? There are NO answers forthcoming from anyone, because the answers people receive are horse droppings.

Crime pays, especially white-collar crime, and imo all other crime results from that. When US troops and cops point their guns at average people, something's very wrong. It's been wrong for at least a century. YMMV


06 Oct 11 - 05:37 PM (#3235033)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

Amos, I hadn't heard that. If I had I wouldn't have posted. Thank you.


06 Oct 11 - 05:40 PM (#3235035)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Jeri

The numbers of those dissatisfied enough to demonstrate is just getting larger. If they get focused on something, they'll be unstoppable. On TV a bit earlier, I saw a Republican politician promising not to take any campaign contribution of more than $100. When it became legal to accept unlimited donations, I think most of us saw where things could be headed.

B, tune please? ("Turn Me 'Round"?)


06 Oct 11 - 05:53 PM (#3235038)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Well, I have cleared my time for the local Occupy Wall Street Saturday afternoon... Will be interesting...

BTW, OWS ain't just young white kids... That's Republican speak... When you look at the pictures, study them carefully... And as this movement picks up steam watch for a lot more Baby Boomers...

This is so exciting... In mjy wildest dreams I never thought that I'd see the oppressed rise up against the corrupt corporations... And, yes, as LH pointed out, Wall Street is the symbol of what has gone wrong with out democracy...

B~


06 Oct 11 - 05:56 PM (#3235039)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,TIA

Look carefully at the OWS signs.
This is not partisan.
This is not a Democratic Party rally.
This is a rebellion by the 99% against the $y$tem, perpetuated by both Republicans and Democrats, that has created an underemployed, overworked, overtaxed (relative to the 1%) voicele$$ majority.
If you look at what we want (listen to Amos' link above), you'd expect the Tea Party to be on board.
Why aren't they?
It's easy - the Tea Party is a phony creation of the 1%.
The 1% and their wholly-owned "news" media are making sure that Tea Partiers think the 99% is a bunch of druggie punks.
If the Tea Partiers listened, and thought for themselves rather than listening to FAUX, they would realize that they are the 99% as well. They are on our team - they're just being told they are not.
They will wake up. The revolution is building - let's just be damn sure to keep it peaceful!


06 Oct 11 - 05:57 PM (#3235040)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Donuel

What a freakin coincidence.... I just happen to have a song hanging around that just might blend in with the wall St. Protesters....




The Wall St. March
                   By Don Hakman

{Adult language, Adult content}

Wall St. got money for nothing and checks for free
We got the nothing and paid for their greed
Wall St. will stop laughing and know what we mean.
When we take back their banks and their fortunes are seized.

When the rich lie cheat and steal they call it success
They tell us OBEY us and clean up this mess
Shut up or else, the rich ass holes dare
But complain once and oooooo, its Class Warfare.

CHORUS

Occupy Wall St. Never retreat, from the wealthy mobsters down on Wall St.
March to stop their criminal schemes and come and join the American Spring


Boys will be boys with all their tom foolery
Like taking my home and job from me.
Wall St. bets on disease and wars.
Oh how they love their money and whores.

Now they're after our unions, police and great teachers
They defile us on Fox with blondes and fake preachers.
Wall St. wants us to pay and pay and pay
The day that stops is today, TODAY, TODAY.

CHORUS
Occupy Wall St. Never retreat, from the wealthy mobsters down on Wall St.
March to stop their criminal schemes and come and join the American Spring.


Bankers sold our country short
They attacked America on a bet
They paid themselves billions
And gave us their debt.


Banks should be our servants not our slave masters
Wall St Bankers are greedy, fat bastards
They are the 60 Trillion dollar pranksters
And the best dressed mobsters and gangsters

CHORUS
Occupy Wall St. Never retreat, from wealthy mobsters down on Wall St.
March to stop their criminal schemes and come and join the American Spring


Get out Boehner, Blowback's a bitch.
The American people are demanding a switch.
Things are really not as they seem
Hank Paulson dreamed up the American ream.

Wall St, got money for nothing and checks for free
We got the nothing and paid for their greed
Wall St. will stop laughing and know what we mean.
When we take back their banks and their fortunes are seized.

Wall St. will stop laughing and know what we mean.
When we take back their banks and their fortunes are seized.

Wall St. will stop laughing and know what we mean.
When we take back their banks and their fortunes are seized.













{Bruce I trust you to put a march behind this and bring it to life)


06 Oct 11 - 06:56 PM (#3235065)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

Send it to 'em, Don.

Jeri, I'll sing it for you when you come up. Bring your guitar.


06 Oct 11 - 07:06 PM (#3235071)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

GREAT Placard! :0)


For those who don't use Facebook, as that's where the link goes...it's a photo of a young man holding a placard which states:

"Dear 1%
We fell asleep for a while
We've woken up
Sincerely, the 99%"



Nearly 7,000 people on here now:
The 'Occupy Canada' facebook page....

And now they're into Washington - Mother Jones article

Nearly 6,000 people on here:
Occupy The London Stock Exchange facebook page


In the words of Richie Havens - "They can't hide us anymore*


Bruce, that's an excellent post, above.


06 Oct 11 - 07:30 PM (#3235083)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

As btw, I first heard the song Playboys and Playgirls from Gil Turner in 1964/5 (I think). I have no idea who the author is. Like some of the 'protest' songs from those days, it may have many authors.


06 Oct 11 - 07:38 PM (#3235086)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

Brilliant article on the Quants (the physicists who've moved into Wall Street) (and yes, it's from the Daily Mail, but written by a freelance writer, so don't get yer knickers in a twist!)

ROBERT HARRIS: How supercomputers preying on human fear are taking over the world's stock markets


And this is even better, except it's kinda depressing when you start to realise what they've done..which is basically scientifically fucked up The System with Beyond Comprehensible Mathematics, but hey, they're making OODLES of money, so they don't care...

‎"Isn't it a problem that I don't understand what you are trying to explain to me?" says the interviewer to a Quant...who laughs, with his buddies...and explains, patronisingly, that he was actually 'dumbing it down' for her..

'Quants - The Alchemists of Wall Street' - Youtube


06 Oct 11 - 08:18 PM (#3235096)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus

Little Hawk-
I was responding to Lizzie Cornish's post of Oct 6.


06 Oct 11 - 10:01 PM (#3235127)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

"The Occupy Wall Street movement has its roots in Vancouver, home base of anti-consumer magazine Adbusters. On July 13, 2011, Adbusters published a spread calling on people to occupy New York's financial district. The magazine's editors say they were inspired by the Arab Spring, and envisioned a similar uprising in the United States.

The protests began on Sept. 17, when a few dozen people tried to set up tents in front of the New York Stock Exchange. Since then, hundreds have flooded the nearby park, which has become the operating base for Occupy Wall Street."

From today's Globe and Mail, fyi.


06 Oct 11 - 10:34 PM (#3235134)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Mostly Liz,

The first part of your first post on there is absolutely correct!...as I also have been bitching about the same things, often with MUCH resistance. I do not subscribe to 'going back' as you suggested that I was. But I DO recognize the problem got to this boiling point, BECAUSE of the corruption of globalist bankers, and the politicians, who masquerade under the title of 'Representatives' (I must have at least 200 posts referring to this!).....and of course have met stubbornly silly opposition, mostly from some Democrat ideologues on here, that somehow their party, and/or 'their guy' were exempt and not part of the collusion,...through the corruption, from the big business guys. Scroll back under my name and you will see that I've been expounding on that, for well over two or three years!
"petecockermouth" hit it on the head, as to the same thing that has happened over there!!!!
So in that premise, you're singing to the choir....but, when you go through the 'demands', and cross reference them with each other, they don't make sense...and I believe, that certain political factions, are using this very opportunity, CONTRIVED these events, not to bring 'change' THROUGH PEACEFUL MEANS, but to create a necessity, for the government, in conjunction with the big business guys to CRACK DOWN, financially and militarily against our own countrymen, and FORCE the change, that even YOU or anyone on here will like AT ALL!!
Now, before blood gets shed, from either side, or before you, or any loved ones have to decide, to have to shed blood, as a result of controlled and manipulated groups of people, don't you want to find out, FOR SURE, that this is not a concoction????!!!???.....using real issues, for false solutions?????....by people with ulterior motives??
This doesn't interest you, at all??????
For the exact SAME reasons I don't trust the Tea Party, nor the Democrats, nor the Republicans..I don't truth this either, when the smell of a rat is as strong as a skunk!
Now, does this seem unreasonable to you??
In other words, before Americans start killing each other over this shit, it would be a tragedy, beyond describing, if it was started over a group of people being whooped up, and lied to!!
....and the clue to the lies are found in the demands. All you have to do, as you read them, is ask yourself.."How can they ask this, and not have to use BORROWED money(from who) to accomplish it??!!??
Try it....something don't make sense......unless.......(to be continued)....

GfS


06 Oct 11 - 10:36 PM (#3235136)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Songwronger

Yikes! Adbusters. Found an article written by a self-described right of center guy. He says...

Adbusters makes caviar socialists like Dominique Strauss-Kahn look like the salt of the earth, saviors of the working class. They basically prey on college students and twenty-somethings unsure of themselves but with distrust in authority, selling their massive and expensive glossy magazine.

Were Occupy Wall Street an organic creation, then I'd be slightly more sympathetic to the cause. But this is Adbusters' wet dream... Of course the people in Occupy Wall Street don't have clear reasons or goals. Adbusters made it that way. And that alone fills me with rage.

Despite all its bluster about the virtues of an advertising-free world, Adbusters uses the very techniques it excoriates corporations for. It uses marketing to try and kill marketing.

Why do Adbusters writers and editors hate personal choice so much? Because their utopia would be a nightmare for most Americans. "What makes you think you have the right to drive around with a ton of metal wrapped around you," asks the September/October 2003 issue, "the right to twist a tap and get hot water, the right to flick a switch and get your house warmed up?" Were the Adbusters group to get its way, hundreds of years of progress would vanish.

The very name of the group implies destruction of private property. This is specifically advocated in nearly every issue of the magazine.

The slick glossy has a cover price of $7.95 -- more than twice the price of People, Vogue, or GQ. The Adbusters website features a plethora of products for sale, including videos, posters, calendars, postcards, books, and even a 3x5-foot "corporate" flag -- the American flag with the stars replaced by corporate logos.


http://bornagainredneck.blogspot.com/2011/10/who-is-behind-occupy-wall-street.html

Tell me it ain't so. Is Occupy Wall Street just a marketing campaign?


06 Oct 11 - 10:47 PM (#3235140)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Hey Songwronger!!..You got it!!!....How's the music coming??(Better, I hope!)...because YOU have something in there to say!...and something great!..It WILL come out!!!...if it isn't already!

GfS


06 Oct 11 - 11:29 PM (#3235151)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Songwronger

Guitar playing's on hold for a while, or songwriting, at least. I'm currently writing other things, but I'll get back to creating chaos out of melodic order eventually. Thanks for that link to the kids playing the banjo/fiddle/guitar piece. Amazing.


07 Oct 11 - 01:11 AM (#3235184)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Composers have the 'privilege'...and 'duty', to contain the chaos. It is the process. I have faith in you...and best of wishes that you accomplish your work. I took a break from guitar, and composed, for a while, on keyboards. TWICE it has got me international recognition!
So, whatever you're working on now, GO FOR IT!..Again, I have faith in you!

GfS

P.S. Also, again, anything I can do...........holler!


07 Oct 11 - 03:54 AM (#3235209)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

What's 'driving' the young people, GfS, is nothing to do with any advertising/non/anti-advertising campaign.

It is Loss of Hope. And when you feel that way, you start to get VERY angry, particularly when there is now a tool such as the internet to open the truth up to the world about how this has all happened.

This is just the beginning...there's a way to go yet, for sure. But it was one helluva of a beginning...

And don't forget, that so many will be losing their jobs soon, even more than at present, so many will be losing their houses, have already lost them....But you will have empty houses out there with no-one to buy them....

Today it was announced on the local BBC News that there are around 3,000 people in North Devon on the Housing Waiting List, that is, waiting for the Council to house them, for they cannot afford to buy or rent homes of their own any longer.

There are NINE houses available for the 3,000.

Do the Math.

Then do the Anger Math.

Work out what is going to happen, when even MORE will lose their homes, as they know will come to pass....

Anger will spill over into Violence, for as Bruce says so often, if you have nothing to lose, then you feel you have everything to gain..


It is my belief we are now in the middle of World War III.

It became a SIN to have an opinion, to be politically incorrect...and the Thought Police were all over anyone who dared to stand up and say "Hang on, Your Emperor is Stark Bloody Naked!!!"

I know. I tried it umpteen times and the Wrath of Mudcat and The English Folk World rained down upon me...People told me I was a nutter, thick, stupid, ignorant...


Well.......................................


The kids don't have a life expectation as you and I did. They are going to have a LONGER life in years, yes, but they have no hopes of starting life with no debt, saving for a home, buying that home, raising their family in it, having A LIFE!!

ALL they can see is The Conveyer Belt of Life that has been invented for them by The Corporate Bastards.

Well, guess what?

They don't want it!

They don't want to study, work, consume and DIE.

They want to LIVE!

And they are BLOODY well DETERMINED to fight for their Right to do exactly that!

There are BILLIONS of GOOD people out here, and the odds against The Bastards are shittier than they have ever been before.

So, I do not agree with you. This is coming from the very hearts of the people themselves, who have educated themselves about who the enemy actually is, what has been happening, what they have ALLOWED to happen, and where they now want to go...


As Chief Oren Lyons says, over and again, in his many videos out there on the internet, it is time for us to become our Own Leaders, for why would you want to blindly follow those who are intent on leading you over the edge of a cliff without once questioning what they are doing....


07 Oct 11 - 03:55 AM (#3235210)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk

dick - Okay. Sorry.

999 - Playboys and Playgirls was written by Bob Dylan in the early years (probably around 1962. He never recorded it, but I guess some other people did.

I hope this thing finally shakes the monied elite right off their ivory tower. Wouldn't that be something to see!


07 Oct 11 - 03:57 AM (#3235213)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

Thanks, LH. I appreciate the info regarding the song's authorship.


07 Oct 11 - 07:24 AM (#3235261)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,TIA

OWS an organized marketing campaign?!?
Get your ass out here and look before you spout.


07 Oct 11 - 07:38 AM (#3235270)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

How to make a life-long Activist in just a few easy moves...


07 Oct 11 - 09:22 AM (#3235293)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

So many people have lost their homes as a result of the Reaganomics melt-down that home ownership, according to NBC this morning, has now dropped to percentages not seen since the Great Depression...

BTW, here's how the ballgame is working:

Bank forecloses > rich people buy (steal) house > rich people rent house to working class = more shift of wealth to the rich...

That's happening across the country... Millions of homes have been and continue to be gobbled up by the drowning-in-cash-rich... And for 50 cents on the dollar... Don't believe me??? If you know any "honest" broker who will tell you the truth ask him or her...

The rich never cease to amaze me on just how creative they can be to cheat the working class...

B~


07 Oct 11 - 10:25 AM (#3235324)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Liz,
I agree with most of your post. Yes, people are angry, and like you, I have posted a bazzilion post on Mudcat, about the big globalist corporations in collusion with crooked, paid off politicians, OF BOTH PARTIES, bilking the public for everything they can...while hiking taxes, to pay for loans, for programs that they convince people are going to be used in 'representing' the people's wishes, ..but instead, use those funds to interfere with the policies of other nations, and causes...without the approval of the people that they are taxing, nor an accountability of where the monies went, or to who, of for what! ..and have put not only us in hock, but the next generations ...to which, some on here, have tried to make me out to be 'the bad guy', when I point out to them that this is corrupt and wrong! Those are the SAME people, when I was opposed to the Federal Reserve, and called for their investigation and disbandment, as did John Kennedy, called me everything in the book, then deny it. Now these same idiot-logues back the 'protesters'.....who want the elimination of the Federal Reserve!..Go figure!
Oh, how fast these people jump on the bandwagon.....oh, how fast these people become obsolete, by attaching themselves to any passing fad, who claims to 'be on their side'......even though within the last week or two, they vehemently opposed, what they now say they support!...and why?....because they very ones they are NOW supporting, have been pretentiously wrapped up in the APPEARANCES of being 'anti-corporate'..when in fact, this particular movement, is a manipulation, for the government to step in, and lay down the MAJOR crackdown, on behalf of a COMPLETE corporate/government/globalist totalitarian nightmare!
If there was the assistance of an ad company, as alluded to by ANOTHER poster, it sure would be interesting to discover WHO'S account! Who hired them, and what are their ties to them....I mean, if you want to follow the 'money trail'!
...but YES, I agree with you. People ARE angry..people are out of work...people are NOT being represented by their elected officials..but I'm not convince, in the least, that this Wall Street protestations are being formed by a 'pure' grassroots movement.....any more than I believe that the Tea Party is a 'pure' grassroots movement, nor the Democrats are representing the people who are even Democrats, nor the Republicans, the same.
Guess what?
Real grassroots movement comes up from the street.....not from someone's well funded corporate offices.
At this point, I am not convinced that this is nothing but a ploy!
Another thing, SOME of the demands are the SAME as the Tea Party's..but with a 'not-so-bright' twist......that SOUNDS appealing, but is utter nonsense, once anyone THINKS IT THROUGH....first of all the want 'absolute debt forgiveness'..then they demand everybody gets a 'living' wage, REGARDLESS of employment....where is the money going to come from, and what form of 'MONEY' are we talking about?...a LOAN???..Fiat money, just being printed??..by who??...what makes it worth anything??..what is it backed by?? LOANS?????..by who??
Sounds like the proverbial jump from the frying pan to the fire, to me! How about you?

And as a addendum,..There are those on here, who like to paint me as some sort of hostile creature...especially when they get their lies called on..by me, that they are NOT making ANY sense whatsoever. (The Bob and Don Show was the latest),...I, in NO way mean any disrespect for you and your post, nor your person..in fact, of all the people who have posted about this subject, who are leaning toward support of it all..yours makes more sense, and is, at least consistent with your prior posts....careful of those who want to jump on your bandwagon, just to interject their nonsense of hostility.

Regards,

GfS


07 Oct 11 - 11:46 AM (#3235363)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Stilly River Sage

And as a addendum,..There are those on here, who like to paint me as some sort of hostile creature...especially when they get their lies called on..by me, that they are NOT making ANY sense whatsoever. (The Bob and Don Show was the latest),...

The problem with your responses to other people, GfS is that you characterize well-thought and supported opinion as "lies." That is guaranteed to chafe.

SRS


07 Oct 11 - 11:53 AM (#3235369)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

Please, don't call me 'Liz', GfS.
Thank you.


07 Oct 11 - 12:02 PM (#3235380)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

Seeger 'n' Springsteen - The Ghost of Tom Joad


07 Oct 11 - 12:47 PM (#3235404)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Thanks, Lizzie... I loved that part of Bruce's career and went to hear him on his Tom Joad tour... Think that was around '96... Constitution Hall in DC... Very nice concert... All acoustic and no accompaniment...

BTW, I last saw Pete about 8 years ago at Common Ground in West minster, Md... Heck of a down to earth guy... Signed my program and actually talked with me for at least 10 minutes...

Haven't kept up with today's events because I'm outside working... Just taking a short lunch break...

Looking forward to tomorrow's meeting/rally in Charlotte... This all takes me right back to the late 60s... Lotta energy...

BoA (Bank of America) has started charging $5 a month ($60 a year) for each debit card... Thousands of people are moving their accounts out of BoA and setting up accounts with credit unions and local banks... Good... Boycott is something that a lot of non-monopoly corporations understand...

The war is "on"...

B~


07 Oct 11 - 02:03 PM (#3235450)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

Yeah!! Sock it to 'em, Bobert!! :0) x


07 Oct 11 - 03:07 PM (#3235485)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

A fair amount of activity out here on the West Coast just as there is all over the United States, mirroring the Occupy Wall Street protests in New York.    CLICKY #1.

Story with pictures:    CLICKY #2.

The future:    CLICKY #3.

Don Firth


07 Oct 11 - 03:58 PM (#3235494)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,TIA

"Real grassroots movement comes up from the street.....not from someone's well funded corporate offices."

Which is why the Tea Party is so phoney.


07 Oct 11 - 06:27 PM (#3235551)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus

The Tea Party very likely started out as a grass roots organization (or dis-organization)---it had no real effect until it was taken over and directed by organizations like Fox. What made it possible for them to have the power they have is that its disparate members (simple-minded libertarians, Conservative Christian activists, and general malcontents)simplified their message to "Cut Spending and taxes"and pressured candidates in local elections and primary fights, even though the Tea Party was never ver popular among the general population.
Tee Wall Street protesters should learn from their successful methods..


07 Oct 11 - 06:56 PM (#3235566)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

"Tee Wall Street protesters should learn from their successful methods.."

That's just it. The Tea Party wasn't successful.


07 Oct 11 - 08:01 PM (#3235592)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus

Guest999-
If you don't think the Tea Party has been successful, how do you explain what's been happening in Congress, or the tone of the Republican Primary campaigns?


07 Oct 11 - 08:11 PM (#3235593)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

I guess this all comes down to defining success... Yes, the Koch brothers and Dick Armey threw hundreds of millions of dollar$$$ into hundreds of campaigns and got a lot of "their" people elected...

The problem is that these people were other rich people and not the grassroots kinda folks... In incoming freshmen House class is the richest class in history with an average net worth of $1.4M...

So success??? Not on a grassroots level but on the corporate level...

B~


07 Oct 11 - 08:56 PM (#3235612)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Suffet

Greetings:

My wife Marilyn and I just got home after spending part of four of the past five days at the Occupy Wall Street encampment at Liberty Plaza (Zuccotti Plaza) in New York City. Most of the time I have been singing, mostly Woody Guthrie songs but also a few of my own and a couple of labor union standards such as Which Side Are You On? Other times I have just been wandering around, listening to speakers and performers, or talking with people.

At one point this past Tuesday, Ron Jacobson, a libertarian reporter, interviwed me. Here is a clickable link to a video of that interview. For some reason Jacobson identified me as a union leader, although I had told him that I was never more than a rank and file member.

My overall impression is that the Occupy Wall Street encampment is an incredibly well organized event, considering how many people are involved. The system of leaderless horizontal democracy is working very well. Food is plentiful, nutritious, and tasty. Warm clothing, socks, hats, tarps, blankets, sleeping bags, etc, are freely available. There is a library, a media center, child care, a communications center, all sorts of training, and more.

What is especially impressive is the method of public speaking without electrical amplification. The speaker says one short phrase at a time, and then everyone in the crowd near the speaker repeats what he or she just said. It's instant human amplification. What a brilliant idea!

Let me just add that I haven't felt this optimistic in a long, long time.

--- Steve Suffet


07 Oct 11 - 09:14 PM (#3235618)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Right on, Steve!!!

Power to the people!!!

B~


07 Oct 11 - 09:37 PM (#3235627)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus

Bobert-
"Yes, the Koch brothers and Dick Armey threw hundreds of millions of dollar$$$ into hundreds of campaigns and got a lot of "their" people elected..."

Agreed. But they supplied the campaign money----Where do you think the votes came from?


07 Oct 11 - 09:43 PM (#3235629)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

Great, Steve! Thanks for that!

Don Firth


07 Oct 11 - 09:45 PM (#3235630)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Well, dick... I hate if but the fact is that the candidate who spends the most $$$ wins 90% of the time...

This is part of what the OWS movement is about...

B~


08 Oct 11 - 12:22 AM (#3235668)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Sandy Mc Lean

American politics is a total basket case but Chongo Chimp is a shining light at the end of the tunnel. In Canada we have a leader who wants to copy the American system and the end of the tunnel remains dark. Wall Street is an emblem of corporate greed that controlls the political puppet strings, so that is a great place to protest the screwing of the common folk! Power to the people!


08 Oct 11 - 03:23 AM (#3235685)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton

Capitalism, even at grass roots level is driven to a certain extent by greed and exploitation.
What these people are protesting about is capitalism....they dont know it and if they did could never say it and be taken seriously.

Any form of revolution would require the loss of life, personal property and what passes here for liberty.

Little Hawk said months ago, that we are not yet desperate enough to become revolutionaries......what is happening right now is a little posing and play acting.....whistling in the dark, or as I mentioned earlier, X Factor politics.

Any attempt to remove the Capitalist systen will be met with extreme force.....and dont think that is a joke,
many thousands will die.

I hope sense prevails and we understand that systemic change can only be effected by long term unity.....not short term divisiveness.


08 Oct 11 - 03:40 AM (#3235686)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton

and please dont cite the demise of the Soviet Union as an example

The people who controlled Communism had no vested interest in the system, unlike the Capitalists, who will never walk away.


08 Oct 11 - 03:50 AM (#3235689)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton

"My overall impression is that the Occupy Wall Street encampment is an incredibly well organized event, considering how many people are involved. The system of leaderless horizontal democracy is working very well. Food is plentiful, nutritious, and tasty. Warm clothing, socks, hats, tarps, blankets, sleeping bags, etc, are freely available. There is a library, a media center, child care, a communications center, all sorts of training, and more."

For fuck sake wake up.....dont you realise you are facing "the Empire".....you are not on a Sunday School picnic.


08 Oct 11 - 09:25 AM (#3235755)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Nah, Ake, ol' buddy... Revolution doesn't have to mean loss of life... All the progressive movement needs is just some "microphone time" to counter the corporate propaganda machine... People just haven't been presented with progressive ideas going back to the late 60s, early 70s when the corporations squashed the last progressive movement...

So what we have are a lot of highly brainwashed people who are voting against their own interests... People aren't stupid... They are mis-informed...

B~


08 Oct 11 - 09:26 AM (#3235756)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.

they supplied the campaign money----Where do you think the votes came from?

Ignorant morons?


08 Oct 11 - 10:37 AM (#3235792)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

"For fuck sake wake up.....dont you realise you are facing "the Empire".....you are not on a Sunday School picnic."

The thought has crossed my mind. So has the following from an essay by Tom Paine.

"I have as little superstition in me as any man living, but my secret opinion has ever been, and still is, that God Almighty will not give up a people to military destruction, or leave them unsupportedly to perish, who have so earnestly and so repeatedly sought to avoid the calamities of war, by every decent method which wisdom could invent. Neither have I so much of the infidel in me, as to suppose that He has relinquished the government of the world, and given us up to the care of devils; and as I do not, I cannot see on what grounds the king of Britain can look up to heaven for help against us: a common murderer, a highwayman, or a house-breaker, has as good a pretence as he."


08 Oct 11 - 11:01 AM (#3235802)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus

Greg F.-
The ignorant morons who voted were a bunch of folks who were angry and frustrated about the conditions they were living under. Point is, that they developed political clout by focusing (or being focused by manipulative forces) on some specific, concrete demands.


08 Oct 11 - 11:02 AM (#3235803)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: pdq

Obama gave an enthusiastic endorsement to the Wall Street protestors.

That is because he is and "activist" and not an executive at all.

The protestors are carfully organized and supplied with food, warm clothing, bull horns, and direction where they are supposed to "protest".

Machael Moore, Susan Saran Rap and the usual Hollywood suspects are showing up and giving pep talks. The bills will be paid by George Soros out of the $12 billion he has accumulated by short-selling America's business comunity, the people who employed the millions who are now unemployed. What a stupid game.


08 Oct 11 - 11:37 AM (#3235812)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: kendall

"The Capitalist will sell the rope that hangs him." (Karl Marx)


08 Oct 11 - 11:39 AM (#3235814)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

The people who voted the millionaire Tea Party candidates did so because the Tea Party candidates promised "jobs, jobs, jobs"... Everything was about jobs... Then once elected, the millionaire Tea Part candidates tore off their sheep clothing and cranked up their hidden agendas and used "eastern elitist pinhead" class warfare on the educated to appease their dupes...

B~


08 Oct 11 - 02:30 PM (#3235874)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Suffet

Sorry to burst your bubble, pdq, but...

* President Obama did not endorse Occupy Wall Street. All he said is that he understands why lots of people feel frustrated. Other politicians have voiced similar sentiments.

• The protesters are in fact very well organized, and supplied with food and clothing. But that is because they are self-organized. There are no outsiders giving the movement direction. If you actually saw the encampment and how it governs and takes care of itself, that notion would be completely absurd. The only direction comes from the General Assembly, in which everyone has an equal voice.

• There are no bullhorns at the Occupy Wall Street encampment, since the Occupy Wall Street encampment does not have a permit for electrical amplification. Instead, the people use human amplification. The speaker says one short phrase at a time, and then the crowd repeats what he or she just said. It is a very effective system.

• Yes, the people you call "the usual Hollywood suspects" have indeed been showing up and giving talks. But so can anyone, including you. Just go to the table near the west side of Liberty Plaza and sign up for a time slot, and then you will get your chance to address the multitudes. Whether or not many people will listen to you is, however, an open question. There are also informal speeches and discussions going on all the time. For these you need not sign up for a time slot. Just show up and start talking.

* I am no fan of George Soros, and although he might be a political ally on particular issues he still represents one wing of the corporate elite. However, he is not bankrolling Occupy Wall Street. Support has come from countless thousands of small donations. If Soros would like to make a donation, he is welcome to do so. But if you believe he can by influence that way, let alone control, then you have no idea how Occupy Wall Street functions.

--- Steve Suffet


08 Oct 11 - 02:40 PM (#3235877)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Janie

Dick,

Think Occupy Wall St. is a phase?.

It's more personal than ideological


08 Oct 11 - 06:07 PM (#3235940)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Suffet

Make that "But if you believe he can buy influence that way,.."

--- Steve


08 Oct 11 - 06:32 PM (#3235947)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.

folks who were angry and frustrated about the conditions they were living under

You bet, Dick - and they had voted for the people that created the conditions they were living under, and they KEEP voting for them, against their own interests.

Sounds like morons to me.


08 Oct 11 - 06:36 PM (#3235948)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus

Greg F. I hold no brief at all for the Tea Party---just pointing out that they provided a model for having some political clout.
The magic word is FOCUS.


08 Oct 11 - 07:27 PM (#3235963)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Just returned from OccupyCharlotte rally and was very impressed at just how well it was organized... The younginz don't need us ol' 60's radicals tellin' 'um nuthin'... They have it down... I'm still trying to get the hand signals down but the entire way they communicate is so democratic that Tom Jefferson would love to see it...

We'll be doing it again next Saturday... One thing that was missing was drums... We always had 'um in the 60s and there were plenty in DC during the Stop-George-Bush-Insanity rallies in the Mad-dash-to-Iraq days... We need more noise... I'll make me a paint-can drum for the next one...

But all in all, very good for the first lap around the track...

B~


08 Oct 11 - 07:50 PM (#3235971)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Suffet

In response to akenaton...

What these people are protesting about is capitalism....they dont know it and if they did could never say it and be taken seriously.

They say it all the time. There are a handful of libertarians who are part of Occupy Wall Street, and they defend capitalism per se, but say that it has become corrupted. Most of the participants, however, agree that the modern corporate capitalist system is what we are up against. I doubt that many believe it can be overthrown right away, but they do believe that some serious structural reform within capitalism is possible. Of course this is only my impression from what I have seen and heard. You will have to ask them yourself.

Any attempt to remove the Capitalist systen will be met with extreme force.....and dont think that is a joke, many thousands will die.

Certainly any attempt to remove the capitalist system by force will be dealt with that way, which is why I heard just about no Weather Underground style revolutionary posturing at Occupy Wall Street. And the little that I did hear came from old-timers, not from the young people. They understand that any armed insurrection would more likely come from the Right than from the Left. And even if there were a fully organized armed revolutionary movement, it would not only face the US Armed Forces, but it would also have to fight civilian law enforcement agencies (federal, state, local), Right-wing militia, private paramilitary security outfits such as Blackwater, organized crime syndicates, drug cartels, and if all else fails to stop them, the combined forces of NATO. In other words, it cannot be done. So the only viable alternative is nonviolent resistance, even if it is just for tactical reasons. This is what the Occupy Wall Street FAQs have to say: Finally, but crucially: This movement is comprised of thousands of people who have committed themselves to nonviolence. The one thing the powers that be understand and employ incredibly effectively around the world is the power of violence. We aim to offer a different model: a model of nonviolent direct democracy.

For fuck sake wake up.....dont you realise you are facing "the Empire".....you are not on a Sunday School picnic.

People are waking up, and many are already wide awake. The choice now is whether or not to be part of the process. If you have something to say, then say it from within. Shouting from the sidelines doesn't do any good.

--- Steve


08 Oct 11 - 07:52 PM (#3235973)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

September 20, 2011

President Obama continued laying what may be more groundwork for his re-election campaign Monday, including a new tax proposal. He calls it the "Buffett rule": a new tax on people making more than $1million a year, who currently pay a much lower rate than an average middle-class American. The president, in fact, proposed this rule to a group of people with a lot of millionaires in it.

The number of Americans who are millionaires is pretty low — about 1 percent of the population. Members of Congress who are millionaires? Nearly 50 percent.

That's according to the Center for Responsive Politics, a nonpartisan watchdog group that tracks money in politics.

Of the 435 members of the House, "244 current members of Congress are millionaires — that's about 46 percent and that includes 138 Republicans and 106 Democrats," says Center for Responsive Politics spokesman Michael Beckel.


08 Oct 11 - 08:01 PM (#3235975)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

The average net worth of the incoming freshmen House of Representatives (mostly Tea Party) was $1.4M... Richest of any freshman class in the history of the US...

And these people hate taxes... Duhhhhh!!!!

B~


09 Oct 11 - 12:17 AM (#3236036)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Janie

Good on you, Suffet, and thanks for sharing your views as well as your experiences.

I doubt, however, based on news reports, that everyone involved with OWS demonstrations share either your expressed view in your last post or ake's view that capitalism is the root of all evil. My understanding is the protests are about unregulated capitalism, i.e. capitalism run riot. Very different from a paradigm that philosophically opposes capitalism and considers it an entirely "wrong,"entirely exploitive, or entirely ineffective socioecomic philosophy.


09 Oct 11 - 12:46 AM (#3236046)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Sandy Mc Lean

"Michael Moore supports the protest." A Hollywood producer who really gives a shit about humanity. The USA could use more like him. Every idiot who shot down Obama's health reform should be sentenced to a month of watching Sicko.


09 Oct 11 - 12:47 AM (#3236047)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: michaelr

Saw a great bumpersticker:

I'll accept that corporations are people when Texas executes one.


09 Oct 11 - 01:43 AM (#3236058)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Lemme see now...Soros funds 'Move on', and SIEU, and Obama, among other things, and you think Obama doesn't endorse the protesters?

Bobert rags on me for at least a dozen posts, about my exposing the Fed, for the crooks they are, and I call for them to be abolished, investigated, and put on trial...now the protesters was to end the Fed, and Bobert is ALL for it!

Lizzie: "Anger will spill over into Violence, for as Bruce says so often, if you have nothing to lose, then you feel you have everything to gain..

It is my belief we are now in the middle of World War III."

Ah, you're onto something there....but the guys who are staging it are the finance boys funding BOTH sides and playing them against the middle! What they want is complete control, digital (cashless)money, and microchips IN all their 'citizens'...and death to all those who will oppose them.
That is not too hard to figure out.
The next balloon to burst, is the surprise when a lot of you wake up!

GfS


09 Oct 11 - 07:32 AM (#3236135)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton

Suffit....The system just loves non violent protest, it buys time to paint the protesters as Anarchists, Communists,etc etc......I know from personal experience that before long they become isolated and their motives misrepresented.

I dont need to ask anyone how it works, as I have fought Capitalism all my life.

Unity is a must, and for the left,that means compromise.


09 Oct 11 - 07:42 AM (#3236139)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

Gotta go for a bit, Ake. But I'll tell you about wing chun when I get back. It may change your thinking on that.


09 Oct 11 - 09:13 AM (#3236173)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus

My new favorite Bumper Sticker:
"If your solution to the country's problems will fit on a bumper sticker, please don't vote"


09 Oct 11 - 09:38 AM (#3236185)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

Alex Jones on Occupy The Federal Reserve


09 Oct 11 - 10:07 AM (#3236191)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Gosh, Lizzie, I hadn't seen that before. Very interesting!..and a lot of what he was saying is true!...and VERY close to what I've been harping on to our fellow Mudcatter left extremist, armchair ideologues!!!

LIZZIE-BABES!!!!

GfS


09 Oct 11 - 10:18 AM (#3236196)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

One small group in yesterday's gathering were "Paul/2012" people... Some of the OWSers are kinda all over the place with their particular bones of contention... I can live with that... A couple had signs against the Federal Reserve, too... I can live with that... I mean, the general consensus is that the working class is getting screwed by the upper 1%... Everyone there, regardless of their per peeves, was on that page...

I think we do need, however, to talk about the realities of a Ron Paul presidency that would double the number of people living in poverty... I thinks some youngins think Paul is just about ending the wars so they don't fully think things out... Same with the Fed... I mean, we live in a global economy and if we have no way of regulation the value of our currency then we will lose market shares of US made goods... China does it... India does it... Europe does it... It is a tool to compete... The Fed may not be perfect but without it we are taking one of our most powerful tools out of the tool box and watching even more unemployment...

I have no problems articulating this as I continue with this current group of folks... Some times you just have to take someone and do a one-on-one with them...

B~


09 Oct 11 - 10:36 AM (#3236203)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Bobert: "I think we do need, however, to talk about the realities of a Ron Paul presidency that would double the number of people living in poverty..."......and so on and so forth..blah blah..

I think the FED is the root of all your misplaced, ridiculous 'information'. I think you ought to look in THAT direction, and get off your Democratic Party shill routine. It's been LONG overdue!
I just read the 'Popular views on Obama' thread for the first time, in a REAL long time..and you are getting the snot whipped out of you...and its for only ONE thing.....your block-headed adherence to the Democrat hypocrisy....Hey, do you think I like to see my fellow musician friends get beat up, and take the fall, over a pack of lies, they happen to believe in..and then start peddling?
Step back, take a look
And you Republicans should do the same thing.
You are both in control by your cronies!.....and they are extorting both parties, and the American public, as well as Europe, and the mid-east.
The party politics game is wearing out.
Gosh, maybe there will be the 'Anti-Party Party'!

GfS


09 Oct 11 - 11:10 AM (#3236212)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk

Putting one's faith in either the Democrats or the Republicans to solve the country's problems is like expecting one's problems to be solved by a choice between...

Hitler and Mussolini

Stalin and Mao Tse-Tung

Al Capone and Lucky Luciano

Pretty Boy Floyd and Baby Face Nelson

Ronald McDonald and the A & W Great Root Bear

Peter Griffin and Homer Simpson

Yes, you may have your personal "favorite" out of any of the above pairs of so-called "choices"......but don't kid yourself that it's going to solve your problems! It's going to add to your problems.

And yet, you appear to have no other choice. Could that be because the game is fixed and your vote is just a rubber stamp for those who control the game? Who is the little man behind the curtain in the Land of Oz? I'll give you a clue. It's not just one man. It's many men and a few women. It's a consortium of special interests, and you don't get to vote either for them or against them, because your electoral system simply doesn't give you any way to do that, because the consortium of special interests pre-selects the candidates you get to vote for...in all but a very few cases...simply because it takes a lot of money to undertake and win an election campaign...and the consortium of special interests are the primary source of that money. They definitely pre-select the candidates for the top positions, such as the president.

And that is why the president works for THEM, not for you, once he's in office.


09 Oct 11 - 11:12 AM (#3236213)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Suffet

Greetings:

From the very beginnings of the United States of America, monetary policy was one of the nation's great divisive issues. It was what was behind Shays' rebellion, Hamilton's plan to for the federal government to assume the states' debts, the struggles over the First and Second Bank of the United States, the Panic of 1837, the issuance of Greenbacks (US Notes, i.e. unsecured paper currency), the repeal of bimetalism (ie. a dual gold and silver standard with the ratio fixed by law) in 1873, The Bland-Allison Silver Purchase Act of 1878, the Sherman Silver Purchase Act of 1890, William Jennings Bryan's "Cross of Gold" speech, and more. By the beginning of the 20th century there were hard money Democrats, hard money Republicans, soft money Democrats, and soft money Republicans, as well as many voices from minor parties, all tugging in different directions. So in 1913, the factions of the two major parties agreed on a truce that would take the question of monetary policy out of the political arena (i.e. Congress) and turn it over to a board of supposedly non-partisan experts. That truce was the Federal Reserve Act of 1913, and that board of supposedly non-partisan experts would be almost entirely composed of bankers. So it has been for the past 98 years.

Ron Paul and his supporters are delusional if they think the USA can return to the gold standard, or even to bimetalism. Tying our country's money supply to a commodity, especially one like gold which would leave us at the mercy of Russia, is pure lunacy. We need a system that can regulate the value of our currency in a rational way. Right now we have the Federal Reserve System. Can it be made more accountable and democratic without returning our country to the pitched battles of the 18th and 19th centuries? Probably, but that's not what the anti-Fed people are asking for. Are they?

--- Steve


09 Oct 11 - 08:19 PM (#3236440)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Well stated, Suffet... The anti- government people will ***believe*** and anti-government conspiracy theory that the wackos can think up with no regard to either knowledge of economics or facts...

Normal...

"Well, the scientists say
It'll all wash away
But we don't believe
in them any more...

Flat earthers UNITE!!!!

B~


09 Oct 11 - 09:55 PM (#3236479)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: gnu

So... where is it all going? I mean, what is going to happen in the end of it all? War with China?


09 Oct 11 - 10:03 PM (#3236481)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Ain't about war with China, gn-ze... Neither economy needs that... Both need to grow at 4%... Not one at 8% and the other at 2%...

B~


09 Oct 11 - 10:30 PM (#3236498)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Suffet

Meanwhile, please click here for a YouTube video of me singing my song Union Warriors at the Occupy Wall Street encampment in New York City on Friday, October 7, 2011. Yes, I am playing my sensational Felix the Cat Martin guitar.

--- Steve


09 Oct 11 - 10:43 PM (#3236508)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: freda underhill

The Tea Party is anti-tax, but the original Boston tea party was against the BRITISH taxing America and sending the money back to Britain. Alexander Hamilton the first U.S. Treasury secretary built America's financial policy based on the need to tax Americans. He knew that to run a prosperous and secure independent country requires taxing the population - equally.

Hamilton established new taxes on liquor, tea, and coffee. His plan was an economic success: the federal government quickly established a solid credit rating, consolidated its debts at low interest rates, and began paying them down rapidly. His plan also led to the new nation's first anti-tax rebellion. In western states, farmers refused to pay the new tax on whiskey (which was sometimes used as a medium of exchange), leading to armed rebellion in Pennsylvania. In 1794, President Washington raised a federal militia and dispatched it to western Pennsylvania. The Whiskey Rebellion collapsed, cementing the federal government's power to levy and collect taxes.


09 Oct 11 - 11:00 PM (#3236516)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: freda underhill

In other words the current Tea Party has hijacked the views of the original founding fathers and misrepresented them.

Why are people occupying Wall St? Bankers took advantage of deregulation to cause massive inflation through reckless lending. Paying themselves big bucks - then were bailed out by taxpayers when everything collapsed.

The upper 1% of Americans are now taking in nearly a quarter of the nation's income every year. The top 1 percent control 40 percent of the wealth. Twenty-five years ago, the corresponding figures were 12 percent at the top held 33% of the wealth.

How can this be democratic? Look to Norway and other northern European countries for a better economic model. And with this goes better social justioe for their people as well.

I hope Washington listens to these protests - the people in the streets can't access politicians the way lobbyists can, this way they are getting heard. Follow the REAL traditions of the Founding Fathers and tax the big boys, like everyone else, and spread the wealth into schools, hospitals and jobs.


09 Oct 11 - 11:06 PM (#3236519)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Yeah, this entire movement is about justice...

Period...

B~


10 Oct 11 - 12:21 AM (#3236529)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Etan

I've taken a day off from Occupy Wall Street to return to normal life as a family guy, and to nurse my sore feet. I will tell you what I've seen, from my perspective, and I'll answer any non-argumentative questions.

I'm not sleeping in Liberty Plaza, which is already overcrowded, but spending a great deal of my non-working time there. What we do mostly is talk & listen and try to figure out what we agree on as reasonable goals and reasonable strategies to get them.

Political opinions in the plaza range from Ron Paul libertarian to the usual array of communist factions. However, most people are in the middle: you can call them frustrated progressive Democrats and you probably wouldn't be far off. I think most people in the plaza would describe themselves as patriotic. They want to see America set back on a course that provides some degree of economic security and democracy. I think most would agree with Roosevelt's second bill of rights and Eisenhower's appraisal of the military industrial complex.

The average person sleeping in the plaza is necessarily young and jobless though often college educated with a history of work. Conditions are very rough without tents, port-o-sans, or showers. There is almost no organization of sleeping areas. People are tossing their foam pads, sleeping bags, and tarps wherever they can, which is often quite close to foot traffic. There is constant city noise, even during quiet hours, and there is the constant threat of a police raid in the middle of the night. People are running on short sleep and with much tension, and they are often cold and wet. It makes your worst festival experience look like a luxury hotel.

Older people usually drop by during the day, as I do. Some are members of the unions that support the action, some are old leftists, and some are just frustrated with the state of the economy and corporate power. It's true that the 'kids' are running the show. They are inexperienced, but they're learning.

Saturday's two marches and rally in Washington Square Park pretty much went off without a negative incident. We have been described as an unruly mob, etc. We showed that to be a lie by our behavior during this event. Police instructions were observed during the march. The rally did not disrupt anything besides a few buskers pitches. Nothing was looted, vandalized, trashed, etc. People behaved themselves responsibly. Even the punk kids have begun to understand our role in convincing the average working person that we are on their side.

Mark Ross, Bruce Murdoch, and I have worked up a new version of "Which Side Are You On". I have an updated version of "Whitehouse Blues" which has been well received. I'm working on an updated "Keep Your Eyes on the Prize" or "Keep Your Hand on the Plow." I hope to organize small groups of street singers to go out into the streets of the financial district during work week rush and lunch hours. New York is generally tolerant of unamplified sidewalk busking. I will take suggestions for other easy to learn and sing political songs.

I realize that I've been rambling on here. To paraphrase Mark Twain, I'd have written a shorter post, but I didn't have enough time.

If you have questions about what's going on, please email me directly, and I'll try to answer. I'll post the new lyrics to White House Blues with a Lyric Add heading. Best wishes to everyone.

-- Etan


10 Oct 11 - 12:32 AM (#3236534)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Sawzaw

I guess the bottom line is Bobert's BIG MEDIA blackballing is another Bobert "fact"

If you have the time Bobert, please define justice.

I hope you won't avoid it with your usual blowhard "do it yourself" avoidance routine like you do about the "shitload of Dixiecrats" that you know nothing about.


10 Oct 11 - 02:20 AM (#3236548)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

Etan, thank you for your on-the-spot report.

I'll try to think of some good songs.

Don Firth


10 Oct 11 - 06:32 AM (#3236606)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton

The movement may be about justice guys ......but Capitalism shure isn't, in fact Capitalism is about injustice, as you have all just witnessed.

The bank bailouts, the printing of money, the attacks on public services, were all unjust, but very necessary to keep the system alive.
Do you want your cake and eat it? Do you really believe you can have Capitalism AND justice?

To the people who run Mr Obama and the system, we have become uncompetitive, useless and completely dispensible, any growth in our economy will now be engendered by the exploitation of people and resources in the East.....we will be viewed as simply consumers with very little money to purchase consumables.

Our lifestyle is about to take an nosedive, appropriate to our value to the system.

We cant fight them, we cant appeal to their sense of justice, we are of no commercial value to them, our only chance is to understand that the lifestyle we have grown accustomed to has gone for ever, no tweaking will ever repair what is an inevitable part of the Capitalist cycle.......Good news????.....Now we are free to explore alternatives, but dont let anyone tell you that these alternatives will be either "democratic", easy, or "liberal".....survival trumps any of those.


10 Oct 11 - 07:44 AM (#3236636)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Jim Carroll

Saw a sit-in of students last week in Seville Cathedral, protesting the cuts in education, witnessed 2 street demonstrations there and on our way home on Sunday we passed the Wall Street-type protest-alike outside the Central Bank in Dublin's Dame Street.
Good luck to all
Jim Carroll


10 Oct 11 - 09:04 AM (#3236664)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST

Good points, Etan...

Here in Occupy Charlotte, it's about the same... Maybe 5% fringe people and 95% middle/moderate progressive Dems and Greens...

There's one trap that I think we don't need to be getting into at this point and that would be specific policy positions... I mean, there's a world of difference between demanding campaign finance reform and getting into the nuts and bolts... Just demanding "justice" in the way we elect officials is, IMHO, as far as OWS needs to go and then be ready to see what the folks in Congress do about out demand...

This is why, again IMHO, we need to push hard for "justice" on all fronts, demand that our leaders will act to correct the corruption and be ready to call them if they play ballgames...

BTW, Occupy Charlotte's next demonstration/general assemble meeting is for this Saturday at 3:00 at Trade and Davidson for anyone within driving range...

As for the usual pest, Saws... It wasn't until 700 people were arrested in New York that OWS got any attention from BIG MEDIA... But I'm not going to play any ballgames with you on this thread because you are not capable of looking at the big picture...

B~


10 Oct 11 - 12:01 PM (#3236773)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: ollaimh

the "capitalism" offered by the right in the usa is an extension of the british "laissez faire" capitalism of the old empire. chri hedges has called it inverted totalitarianism. i prefer just totalitarianism capitalism, or militray capitalism. it's free enterprse for only those conected to the corporate elite and poverty and death to everybody else. totalitarianisn capitalism wil devour the planet and render higher life forms unsustainable at the rate it's going.

they are more interested in war and eternal oil dependancy that a rational economy for people. i supported the wall street bailout but in a different way. take back equity in the banks bailed out for the cash. not a giveaway. then you can do the forensic accounting to find the real criminals of our time. however we got this give away instead . showing that free enterprise and competition is only for the poor and unconnected not for the corporate elte.

of course the whole mess was the direct result of the foolishness of the bush years of an ruinously expensive war in iraq and un believable deficits. if that kind of money had been put into alternate energy resourses we would be well on the way to energy self sufficiency in north america now! and we could let the saudis et al drift back into the obscurity they deserve.

however that wouldn't feed the corporate military budgets and the oil boys like dick cheney and buch. remember cheney was head of haliburton.

americans are so easily rilled up by red herring issues i don't know how you get controll of te republic from the corporate elite, but untill it happens the disaster will get worse and worse. remember we haven't even hit the reall problems comming from global warming and resource exhaustion. and are we prepared. or even tinking of preparing?


10 Oct 11 - 12:10 PM (#3236782)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce

"Despite his rhetorical attacks on Wall Street, a study by the Sunlight Foundation's Influence Project shows that President Barack Obama has received more money from Wall Street than any other politician over the past 20 years, including former President George W. Bush.
In 2008, Wall Street's largesse accounted for 20 percent of Obama's total take, according to Reuters.
When asked by The Daily Caller to comment about President Obama's credibility when it comes to criticizing Wall Street, the White House declined to reply....

In fact, the Sunlight Foundation, a nonpartisan watchdog group that tracks lobbyist spending and influence in both parties, found that President Obama has received more money from Bank of America than any other candidate dating back to 1991.
An examination of the numbers shows that Obama took in $421,242 in campaign contributions in 2008 from Bank of America's executives, PACs and employees, which exceeded its prior record contribution of $329,761 to President George W. Bush in 2004.
According to the Center for Responsive Politics, Wall Street firms also contributed more to Obama's 2008 campaign than they gave to Republican nominee John McCain.
"The securities and investment industry is Obama's second largest source of bundlers, after lawyers, at least 56 individuals have raised at least $8.9 million for his campaign," Massie Ritsch wrote in a Sept. 18, 2008 entry on the Center for Responsive Politics's OpenSecrets blog.
By the end of Barack Obama's 2008 campaign, executives and others connected with Wall Street firms, such as Goldman Sachs, Bank of America, Citigroup, UBS AG, JPMorgan Chase, and Morgan Stanley, poured nearly $15.8 million into his coffers.
Goldman Sachs contributed slightly over $1 million to Obama's 2008 presidential campaign, compared with a little over $394,600 to the 2004 Bush campaign. Citigroup gave $736,771 to Obama in 2008, compared with $320,820 to Bush in 2004. Executives and others connected with the Swiss bank UBS AG donated $539,424 to Obama's 2008 campaign, compared with $416,950 to Bush in 2004. And JP Morgan Chase gave Obama's campaign $808,799 in 2008, but did not show up among Bush's top donors in 2004, according to the Center for Responsive Politics.
Obama's close relationship with JP Morgan Chase was highlighted earlier this year when he tapped Bill Daley, a former top executive with the bank, to replace Rahm Emanuel as his chief of staff.
Wall Street's generosity to Obama didn't end with his 2008 campaign either. Wall Street donors contributed $4.8 million to underwrite Obama's inauguration, according to a Jan. 15, 2009 Reuters report.
So far Wall Street has raised $7.2 million in the current electoral cycle for President Obama, according to the Center for Responsive Politics. Obama's 2012 Wall Street bundlers include people like Jon Corzine, former Goldman Sachs CEO and former New Jersey governor; Azita Raji, a former investment banker for JP Morgan; and Charles Myers, an executive with the investment bank Evercore Partners...."



http://news.yahoo.com/obama-attacks-banks-while-raking-wall-street-dough-044804642.html


10 Oct 11 - 12:15 PM (#3236786)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Bobert: "
"Well, the scientists say
It'll all wash away
But we don't believe
in them any more...

Flat earthers UNITE!!!!"


They did!!...and formed political parties!!!! (Yours included, BTW)!!

Bobert: "As for the usual pest, Saws... It wasn't until 700 people were arrested in New York that OWS got any attention from BIG MEDIA... But I'm not going to play any ballgames with you on this thread because you are not capable of looking at the big picture..."

FALSE!!! It was one the 'news' before ANYONE was arrested....unless you get your 'news' from re-runs of 'Felix the Cat'....(which wouldn't surprise me!)

................

Do not confuse 'capitalism' with 'corporatism'...and furthermore GLOBALIST CORPORATISM. The are TWO distinct things.
One is akin to 'communism', and the other is a way to get compensated for your work.

(Actually, I'm pretty tired with ALL 'isms'! You'd think by now people would get tired of segregating themselves into 'elite' groups, based on manipulated ideologies, and return to the FAMILY of man!

GfS


10 Oct 11 - 12:29 PM (#3236799)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton

That is exactly what we NEED to do GfS.....but first we have to understand that humanity has a finite standard of living.
If a section goes over that standard.....another section suffers.


10 Oct 11 - 01:39 PM (#3236843)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

Say what all ya want: OWS is happening, and that's the long and short of it.

Thanks to both Steve and Etan for the info. We don't get all that much from the 'news'.


10 Oct 11 - 01:53 PM (#3236852)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Here's the deal, bb...

Who gave what to whom is no longer traceable... Anything that anyone writes about this amount or than amount has nothing to do with reality... The Supreme Court has ruled that it is none of our business who, domestic of foreign, buys our elections and owns the folks in Congress...

This is reality...

So much for paid rightie bloggers who pour 40 hours a week into playing the "numbers games"... If the left had those resources and hired an equal number of bloggers, stat men, etc they would undoubtedly turn the story 180 degrees around...

The problem here is that until we find a way to balance the playing field, where all views are heard and BIG money is taken out of politics, we will not have democracy...

That's what OWS is about...

B~


10 Oct 11 - 01:54 PM (#3236853)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

BTW, good to hear from you, bruce...

B~


10 Oct 11 - 02:07 PM (#3236863)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce

"Who gave what to whom is no longer traceable... Anything that anyone writes about this amount or than amount has nothing to do with reality."

The numbers in the article posted are those that ARE TRACEABLE- showing that Obama is more "Bought and Paid For" than even GWB.

YET YOU still make claims about the Right, and deny them about the Left....

Seems like YOU have a real problem with looking at ANY facts that are brought up, unless they support what YOU want us to believe.




"where all views are heard and BIG money is taken out of politics, "

You mean like NOT calling anyone who opposes the policies of the present administration Racist, and NOT letting the present administration buy the election as they did in 2008, spending far more money than those who disagreed with them???

Or do you only apply balance to the OTHER side??







btw, congrats on the Blues Challenge win.


10 Oct 11 - 03:04 PM (#3236903)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

"This is reality"- No one has it right except me.


10 Oct 11 - 03:35 PM (#3236924)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: pdq

...from a recent post:

"Obama's close relationship with JP Morgan Chase was highlighted earlier this year when he tapped Bill Daley, a former top executive with the bank, to replace Rahm Emanuel as his chief of staff."

That say a lot about Obama's allegiances.


10 Oct 11 - 04:06 PM (#3236932)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk

As far as I can see, Obama's allegiance is to the same basic cartel of special interests that Bush's allegiance was to....disguised by the illusion of the 2-party system, a two-headed monster that fights public battles against itself to keep the public divided against themselves just like people cheering for two baseball teams at the World Series. The 2 teams are employed by the same league. The league cashes in when you buy your ticket to "see the game". You pick the team you like the best, hate the other team, and the game goes on. The team that wins the championship (the election) gets a big bonus and gets to hold the cup (office) for 2 to 4 years (depending on which level of the office). This ensure that those 2 bogus teams will play damn hard whenever they're out on the field, and they will use any dirty tactic to win and secure the spoils of victory, but they don't do it for you. They work for their rich owners and for the league of rich owners...and their own personal gain.

It's a charade. The people you elect don't work for you any more than the baseball players you go to see at the World Series. They work for their owners. And who are their owners? Bankers and corporate CEOs, that's who. You know...those people who make 1,000 times more money than you ever will, but don't work any harder than you do? That's who owns the Republican and Democratic Parties...a set of corporate vampires who suck the lifeblood from society and make money from waging war.

Your traditional loyalty to one party and your hatred of the other is not going to deliver you from the oppression you are under...only sink you deeper in the illusion. And it will end up making you hate one another. This thread (and all the other political threads) are stark proof of that.


10 Oct 11 - 06:09 PM (#3236988)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Exactly, the money goes both ways... The corporations "cover themselves like bus station whores"...

OWSers are saying in general that all this is doing is preventing *US* from having a democracy... When 90% of candidates who spend the most $$$ win and there is no control over who contributes to whom, with no disclosure, then we will get nothing but corruption...

And, bb, what your blogger has done is narrowed the focus so much that if this were a submarine with a hole the size of Volkswagen and another the size of a pin hole your blogger is ignoring the VW hole and diverting attention away toward the pinhole... This is the tactic of the rigth... Never talk about the big picture... Always find some detail to make into the big picture...

The big picture is that we have BIG $$$ running out goevernment...

I don't give a rat's ass where this amount went or that amount... We saw billion$$$ of ads that were for this guy or that guy that we frankly have no idea who was buying them...

Do you agree that we don't want the Chinese to own our Congress???

Well, they can according to your Supreme Court...

We need to restore a workable democracy... If we can't do that then we are going to be a failed state...

Bob (OccupyCharlotte.com)


10 Oct 11 - 06:37 PM (#3237002)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

This morning, on my local NPR affiliate, I heard a discussion with Seattle's mayor Mike McGinn about "Occupy Seattle," the local mirror of "Occupy Wall Street." Steve Scher (an excellent interviewer) asked Mayor McGinn about some of the restrictions he had placed on the demonstrators who were gathering and camping at Westlake Park. The mayor responded that he was not allowing them to pitch tents and camp there overnight because that was a violation of long-standing city ordinances. He offered the demonstrators the alternative of camping on the large lawn next to City Hall, a few blocks South of Westlake Park.

As the interview progressed, Mayor McGinn indicated that he thoroughly understood what motivates the protesters and, fundamentally, is in agreement with them. He cited statistics about the inequitable distribution of wealth in this country and deplored the city services that he was forced to cut and the people he had to lay off due to budget constraints brought about by the country's sick economy. This, along with Seattle's stalled light rail system and the egregious traffic gridlock in and around the city because the city simply does not have the funds to fix it.

In the last half hour of the program (interrupted from time to time by the station's current ongoing "beg-a-thon"), as he usually does, Steve opened the phones and invited people who had questions or comments to call in. The first caller exploded all over the mayor, reading him out for his allowing anarchists and hooligans to use city facilities and accused him of being (oh, horrors!!) a Socialist!!

That, of course, is the ultimate curse. And like many of this caller's ilk, I'm quite sure that when he calls the city to bitch about the pot-hole in the street in front of his house, he's counting on certain "socialistic" practices to come out and fix it for him (rather than pay for it himself). There are a lot of really clueless people who, nevertheless, have the power of the vote.

The rest of the callers were generally saner and better informed.

Don Firth


10 Oct 11 - 07:20 PM (#3237020)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,TIA

Look carefully. OWS is not an Obama rally. BB's post is intended to start an argument on another topic. OWS is not about supporting Obama. He can choose for himself which side he is on. And, I will expect him to do so.

I suggest taht everyone and everyone go to their local Occupy gathering - judge for yourselves whether these people are puppets or frustrated *individuals*. Until you do that, you are talking out your arse.


10 Oct 11 - 07:27 PM (#3237025)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

You notice, TIA, that my rebuttals to bb don't mention Obama once... Or anyone else for that matter...

I get OWS... It's about "democracy" in action... That's what scares the right... They hare democracy because it means that we elect people differently and people can't buy power... Purdy simple...

B~


10 Oct 11 - 07:40 PM (#3237032)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,TIA

Yup. Everybody I am seeing and talking to is not getting any money from anyone to be there. Nobody is bought. And the 1% are scared shitless that we can't be bought. So they are trying to convince the Faux viewing sheep that we are a dangerous mob.


10 Oct 11 - 07:46 PM (#3237035)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

BINGO, TIA!!!

They are scared shitless...

Bob


10 Oct 11 - 07:54 PM (#3237043)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: gnu

It could become something... from "nothing". Hey... if all of the people who got fucked over by big business protest and shut things down, maybe big business will have to listen to them. Of course, let's hope big business have already fired off all their cruise missiles bombing people 8000 miles away.


11 Oct 11 - 12:03 AM (#3237107)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk

I don't think OWS is about supporting Obama. I don't think it's about supporting any political party. It's about exposing and resisting the domination of our societies by a criminal financial elite which has been controlling ALL the major political parties through corporate funding of their campaigns and through lobbying politicians in office and through playing totally irresponsible financial games with the public's money.


11 Oct 11 - 09:11 AM (#3237145)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Yeah, LH... Whereas most of the OWSers will either vote for Obama or not vote, this is kinda a sidebar movement... That's why I like it and will continue with the Charlotte group... This conversation is long overdue... The right wing has done everything in their power to change the conversation...

On the Washington Post discussions all the righties want to talk about is some guy who used a cop car as a bathroom... What the righties absolutely will not accept is that one thing that every group has in common is that the movement is non-violent... Everyone pledges in the "General Assembly" to abide to rules of non-violence toward other folks and ****property****... But the right gleefully says over and over and over (100s of times) the same mantra about OWSers pooping on cop cars... That is their entire response other than accusing the OWSers of wanting a handout...

No matter...

It's up to *US* to ignore the "ignor"ant and just keep pointing out that America needs to restore democracy and justice... If we do that, everything else is just details...

B~


11 Oct 11 - 09:36 AM (#3237162)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Suffet

I have spent six days at Occupy Wall Street here in New York City, and I assure you that it is not a pro-Obama event. If anything, people are just as critical of Obama as they are of all the other politicians, Democrats as well as Republicans. Occupy Wall Street is about how corporate wealth and power have co-opted, subverted, bought off, twisted, undermined, thwarted, and dismembered American democracy. If anything, the Case of Barack Obama is Exhibit 1.

--- Steve


11 Oct 11 - 09:37 AM (#3237163)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Sawzaw

Chongo D. Chimp must be the mastermind behind all of this OWS stuff.

Don't watch alphabet television networks, but Adbuster ads promoting Occupy Wall Street will keep you safe from risk of mental illness.

The Canadian "Mental Environmentalists" Face behind Occupy Wall Street
canadafreepress.com October 6, 2011

If you are a factory owner or in the business of making widgets in today's America, you are a capitalist pig and Occupy Wall Street protesters will use you as an excuse for anarchy with violent signs that read: "Eat the Rich".

If you are a Michael Moore or a Susan Sarandon, making millions in the film world, Wall Street protesters will eat you up, sing your praises and bow forever at just the mention of your name.

As George Orwell penned long ago, "Some animals are more equal than others".

The face of the Occupy Wall Street protest is a Canadian one.

It's the face that belongs to AdBusters owner Kalle Lasn, but can't be found on AdBusters website. Canada Free Press (CFP) went to the Way Back Machine to bring Lasn forward today.

But Lasn takes full credit for the protests that started with Wall Street and are spreading across North America to other cities in today's Globe and Mail.

"This was all cooked up right here at Adbusters. It's a Canadian adventure," he said."

"Egypt and Tahrir Square proved that a few smart people on the Internet can call for something and, if it captures the public's imagination, it can get tens of thousands of people out on the streets."
Lasn collaborated on the book Design Anarchy (2006) with fellow social activists Michael Simons and Paul Shoebridge.

This is the biography written by Kalle Lasn revived from Way Back Machine: "I was born in Tallinn, Estonia, during the middle of World War II. In 1944, as the Russian army approached Tallinn, my family escaped to Germany. We lived in a displaced persons' camp for five years. When I was seven we immigrated to Australia where I received my education, graduating with a B.Sc. in pure and applied mathematics. My first job was with the Australian Defense Department where I played computer-simulated war games in the Pacific Ocean. At age 23 I headed for Europe, but my boat stopped in Yokohama for two days. I fell in love with Japan and was unable to get back on the boat. During the '60s I ran a market research company in Tokyo and made enough money to travel around the world for three years. Then I returned to Japan, married Masako Tominaga and we immigrated to Canada. I started a documentary film making company. Over the next 15 years, my documentaries were broadcast on PBS, CBC and around the world, winning over 15 international awards.

"In 1989 I produced a 30-second TV spot about the disappearing old-growth forests of the Pacific Northwest, but to my dismay, none of the commercial TV stations would sell me any airtime. The Media Foundation, Adbusters Magazine and Powershift Advertising Agency were all born out of this incident and the realization that there is no democracy on the airwaves. I've spent the last thirteen years editing and publishing Adbusters, launching social marketing campaigns like Buy Nothing Day and TV Turnoff Week, and fighting legal battles for the right to access the public airwaves."

According to Wikipedia, "Adbusters Media Foundation is a not-for-profit, anti-consumerist, pro-environment organization founded in 1989 by Kalle Lasn and Bill Schmalz in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada. The foundation describes itself as a "global network of artists, activists, writers, pranksters, students, educators and entrepreneurs who want to advance the new social activist movement of the information age.

"The Adbusters Media Foundation publishes the reader-supported, advertising-free Adbusters, an activist magazine with an international circulation of 120,000 devoted to challenging consumerism. Notable past and present contributors to the magazine include Christopher Hedges, Matt Taibbi, Bill McKibben, Jim Munroe, Douglas Rushkoff, Jonathan Barnbrook, David Graeber and others."

Before starting off the North American protest movement based on the so-called "Arab Spring", Adbuster's main claim to fame was "Mental Environmentalism".

While Environment giant Greenpeace, (which also originates from Canada) campaigns against pollution and takes to the seas to "Save the Whales", AdBusters' self-professed "greenthink' aims to "clean up the toxic areas of our mind".

The pollution of invading the privacy of the human "mind" is not mentioned.

The Adbuster greenthink is on the record describing how "Mental environmentalists argue that a whole range of phenomenon from the BP oil spill to the emergency of crony-democracy to the mass extinction of animals to the significant increase in mental illnesses are directly caused by the three thousand advertisements that assault our minds each day", though this is tagged with a Wikipedia notation "citation needed"

Don't watch alphabet television networks, but Adbuster ads promoting Occupy Wall Street will keep you safe from risk of mental illness.


11 Oct 11 - 09:51 AM (#3237169)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999 -- IMPORTANT READ, IMO.

I have posted the article here rather than link to it. Paul Krugman was a Nobel Prize recipient (Economics) in 2008. He might be worth reading. It casts light on some recent rants against OWS.

Panic of the Plutocrats
By PAUL KRUGMAN
Published: October 9, 2011

It remains to be seen whether the Occupy Wall Street protests will change America's direction. Yet the protests have already elicited a remarkably hysterical reaction from Wall Street, the super-rich in general, and politicians and pundits who reliably serve the interests of the wealthiest hundredth of a percent.

And this reaction tells you something important — namely, that the extremists threatening American values are what F.D.R. called "economic royalists," not the people camping in Zuccotti Park.

Consider first how Republican politicians have portrayed the modest-sized if growing demonstrations, which have involved some confrontations with the police — confrontations that seem to have involved a lot of police overreaction — but nothing one could call a riot. And there has in fact been nothing so far to match the behavior of Tea Party crowds in the summer of 2009.

Nonetheless, Eric Cantor, the House majority leader, has denounced "mobs" and "the pitting of Americans against Americans." The G.O.P. presidential candidates have weighed in, with Mitt Romney accusing the protesters of waging "class warfare," while Herman Cain calls them "anti-American." My favorite, however, is Senator Rand Paul, who for some reason worries that the protesters will start seizing iPads, because they believe rich people don't deserve to have them.

Michael Bloomberg, New York's mayor and a financial-industry titan in his own right, was a bit more moderate, but still accused the protesters of trying to "take the jobs away from people working in this city," a statement that bears no resemblance to the movement's actual goals.

And if you were listening to talking heads on CNBC, you learned that the protesters "let their freak flags fly," and are "aligned with Lenin."

The way to understand all of this is to realize that it's part of a broader syndrome, in which wealthy Americans who benefit hugely from a system rigged in their favor react with hysteria to anyone who points out just how rigged the system is.

Last year, you may recall, a number of financial-industry barons went wild over very mild criticism from President Obama. They denounced Mr. Obama as being almost a socialist for endorsing the so-called Volcker rule, which would simply prohibit banks backed by federal guarantees from engaging in risky speculation. And as for their reaction to proposals to close a loophole that lets some of them pay remarkably low taxes — well, Stephen Schwarzman, chairman of the Blackstone Group, compared it to Hitler's invasion of Poland.

And then there's the campaign of character assassination against Elizabeth Warren, the financial reformer now running for the Senate in Massachusetts. Not long ago a YouTube video of Ms. Warren making an eloquent, down-to-earth case for taxes on the rich went viral. Nothing about what she said was radical — it was no more than a modern riff on Oliver Wendell Holmes's famous dictum that "Taxes are what we pay for civilized society."

But listening to the reliable defenders of the wealthy, you'd think that Ms. Warren was the second coming of Leon Trotsky. George Will declared that she has a "collectivist agenda," that she believes that "individualism is a chimera." And Rush Limbaugh called her "a parasite who hates her host. Willing to destroy the host while she sucks the life out of it."

What's going on here? The answer, surely, is that Wall Street's Masters of the Universe realize, deep down, how morally indefensible their position is. They're not John Galt; they're not even Steve Jobs. They're people who got rich by peddling complex financial schemes that, far from delivering clear benefits to the American people, helped push us into a crisis whose aftereffects continue to blight the lives of tens of millions of their fellow citizens.

Yet they have paid no price. Their institutions were bailed out by taxpayers, with few strings attached. They continue to benefit from explicit and implicit federal guarantees — basically, they're still in a game of heads they win, tails taxpayers lose. And they benefit from tax loopholes that in many cases have people with multimillion-dollar incomes paying lower rates than middle-class families.

This special treatment can't bear close scrutiny — and therefore, as they see it, there must be no close scrutiny. Anyone who points out the obvious, no matter how calmly and moderately, must be demonized and driven from the stage. In fact, the more reasonable and moderate a critic sounds, the more urgently he or she must be demonized, hence the frantic sliming of Elizabeth Warren.

So who's really being un-American here? Not the protesters, who are simply trying to get their voices heard. No, the real extremists here are America's oligarchs, who want to suppress any criticism of the sources of their wealth.


11 Oct 11 - 10:02 AM (#3237175)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

That isn't news, Sawzaw. I mentioned it--although not with your degree of erudition--days back on this thread.


11 Oct 11 - 10:27 AM (#3237195)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Jeri

Just another reason why I love Canada.


11 Oct 11 - 10:29 AM (#3237197)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Thanks for posting the Paul Krugman op-ed, bruceie... He fairly well sums up the situation...

And for "Exhibit A" all one has to do is go to washingtonpost.com and read the discussions... There are about 8 or 9 of the upper 1% who have literally camped out there 24/7 manning their front... It the same people who have tried 100s, maybe thousands, of times to change the conversation to "poo" or people wanting a "handout"...

They absolutely will not engage in any other conversation other than calling the folks who have something intelligent to say as socialists or morons!!! That, my friends, is the response of the super wealthy... Name calling and bogus stories about poo...

B~


11 Oct 11 - 10:33 AM (#3237201)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

Greenpeace started here? I wasn't aware of that. Makes one proud to be Canadian!


11 Oct 11 - 10:44 AM (#3237206)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Jeri

Not likely. You guys still club seals, I think. Hey, I hear some greedy folks here have nice pelts. If we work things out right, we can send them way up north and you can get sloppy seconds on the furs.


11 Oct 11 - 10:56 AM (#3237209)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Jeri

Oops. Sorry- I missed the bit about Greenpeace. Zoned out by the time I hit that part.


11 Oct 11 - 12:11 PM (#3237248)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: ollaimh

i read a book by neil fergeson published before the
crash" called the ascent of money. he pointed out that over eighty percent of the financial instruments being traded and sold on wall street didn't exist in 1990. they made a lot of money creating stocks and bonds out of thin air, by packaging exisiting ones, then sold derivatives and derivitives on derivitives, and options on derivitivies, etc. with the cash they suddessfully lobbied congress to remove the already limp wristed regulations, and went to town! the result was a classic bubble.

now in canada we had a government that may have been too business oriented but ran surplusses for eleven years, and refused the banks permission to engage in the risky financial instruments being created in wall street, they were pilloried by the business community, but eureka! we had no bamk failures! we had no insurance company failures! no mortgage company failures ! no trust company conpany failres!

and or big five bankc are among the biggest in the world because we have bank consolidation--few or no mlocal banks, and our bankc play on the world stage, especially in the carribean, parts of south america and europe.

wow , regulation. what a concept. don't let the crooks from military capitaqlism steal all the money! they did it oin the eighties with the chicago mercantile exchange scandal where the largest commidities exchange in the world was a bucket shop with over a third of the people involved on the take, then the nineties the savings and loan five finger discount for the big corporations then the tech bubble then the great crash. they will steal all the money if you leave them unregulated. and calling any attempt at regulation socialism is just stupidity. there are fer instance no socialist governments in europe any more! but they regulate. canada's regulation was not socialism, the prime minister and finance minister who was the artichect of the whole regulatory system was a major corporate owner! but he was a canadian liberal who believed in corporate responsibility.

if you don't regylate they will strsl all the money!! it's that simple.

when your military has gifted you a whole un exploited continent, the biggest lottery win in mankinds history, if you caqn't make that work your system is totally screwed up! any body but idiots can make north america the wealthiest palces in the world. anybody but the american right wingnuts


11 Oct 11 - 12:12 PM (#3237249)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Stringsinger

Hi Dick,



The actions that the protesters are looking for and hope to achieve is for the wealthy CEO's and corporations to pay their fair share of taxes, for cut backs on the Military Industrial Complex and bring soldiers home from the failed wars. Congress as run by Republicans and wishy-washy Democrats will not listen to what the people are saying. They have too much invested economically in the status quo and are controlled by corporate purse strings. There is also a demand for a systemic change in the way our government functions by ridding of lobbying, developing regulations that have teeth, such as Glass Steagal, eliminating the ruse that "corporations are people" and are entitled to buy "free speech", which is not really free. The important aspect of this movement is that the dots are finally being connected, the exploitation of the American working and middle class, the prolonged wars, the control of government by corporations, the exploitation of insurance providers, the malfeasance of energy company polluters, the
disenfranchisement of the electorate, the takeover of congress by Republican special interest groups such as ALEC (The American Legislative Exchange Council) which seeks to promote bills by buying legislators, and the abject failure of Libertarianism, "trickle down" economics, and the trashing of government by those who game the system.

What's not to understand?


11 Oct 11 - 12:24 PM (#3237253)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Stringsinger

Sawzaw, Adbusters didn't invent our economic problems, they found a way to describe them. These problems were there before Adbusters came on the scene. The Chongo Chimps are the ones who don't get it.

BB most people bend the facts to fit their perception of the world. There are no objective facts that are not open to interpretation. Even gravity is defied by air travel.

The important aspect of the OWS movement is that it reflects the views of the participants who come from all walks of life and are not, as the media deprecatingly refers to them, pot smoking hippies.

Otherwise the police wouldn't have to be so brutal in their crackdown.


11 Oct 11 - 12:46 PM (#3237268)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce

Strings,

"BB most people bend the facts to fit their perception of the world"

Agreed, yet most here deny it when THEY are caught doing do.



"There are no objective facts that are not open to interpretation."

Agan, the majority HERE do NOT permit any interpretation that does not fit their agendas.




" Even gravity is defied by air travel."

Not a true statement. Air travel does not in any way defy gravity- The aerodynamic lift provides a counter to it, but planes will fall out of the sky when that does not counterbalance the force of gravity.


11 Oct 11 - 01:29 PM (#3237302)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Actually, bruce, nothing that you have just said changes the facts on the ground about the OWS movement... Strings hit 'um pretty well with his 12:12 post...

As for "permitting" different opinions, that's not true... I don't believe that any of your posts have been deleted... Yeah, you do seem to camp out on the right side of the divide and it's true that most of the folks here are on the "other" side but, hey, this is a fold musicians web site... What would you expect??? Folk musicians tend to be more liberal than the general population... That's just simple reality... I mean, if I go to a Young Republican website with my ideas then I'm not going to find too many people who agree with me, if any... That's reality...

But I'd rather have a Mudcat with you as part of the community than one without you... It's not about permitting or not permitting but accepting someone who doesn't agree with the majority... No one here that I know of dislikes you for your views... You, for the most part, present them without malice...

BTW, how's that school coming???

B~


11 Oct 11 - 02:57 PM (#3237335)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp

"The Chongo Chimps are the ones who don't get it." - Stringsinger

What the heck are you talkin' about, Mister? I am 100% in favour of the Occupy Wall Street movement! I say more power to the protestors. The bankers and mega-corporates have robbed and impoverished this society and co-opted government. They are destroyin' the middle class and playin' pyramid schemes with money they made outta thin air. They are crooks! They oughta be arrested and put on trial for grand larceny from the public purse.

It is asinine to pretend, as Sawzaw does, that this movement is anti-capitalist. What a laugh. Corporatism is NOT capitalism! As a matter of fact, corporatism as it is practiced today destroys traditional capitalism, destroys local jobs, puts American out of work, sends the jobs overseas, and shuts down small businesses everywhere. Corporatism and international banking congolomerates are wiping traditional capitalism and the American middle class who used to benefit from traditional capitalism off the face of North America.

This is the real truth that the Republicans cannot face up to. Their policies are killing capitalism and replacing it with centralized rule by huge banks and huge corporations...and it ends up lookin' more like a new form of Stalinism with a big dollar sign stuck on its face to me.

Get this, Stringsinger: I AM a member of the 99%!

- Chongo


11 Oct 11 - 03:48 PM (#3237363)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

Bruce, the Paul Krugman article you posted at 11 Oct 11-09:51 a.m.?

Excellent! Clear and very much to the point. Thank you for posting that!

Don Firth


11 Oct 11 - 04:02 PM (#3237372)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

Thank you Don and Bobert.


11 Oct 11 - 04:52 PM (#3237394)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

A good column in the NY Times today.
The Milquetoast Radicals
David Brooks, Oct. 10, 2011

Nothing but trivial sideshows over the past two years (E. g., The Occupy Wall Street). Extracts-

"A group that divides the world between the pure 99 percent and the evil one percent will have nothing to say about education reform, Medicare reform, tax reform, wage stagnation or polarization. They will have nothing to say about the way Americans have overconsumed and over borrowed. These are problems that implicate a much broader swath of society than the top 1 percent."
"..... since the left no longer believes in the nationalization of industry, these "radicals" really have no systematic reforms to fall back on."
The article goes on to castigate the small thinkers, including both Obama and the Republicans.

See Matt Miller, The Third Party Stump Speech We Need.
".... slash corporate taxes and raise energy taxes, aggressively use market forces and public provisions to bring down health care costs; raise capital requirements for banks; require national service; balance the budget by 2018."
Matt Miller, Washington Post, published September 25, 2011.
The results will be a "more competitive, sustainable and just America."
Miller makes a strong case against "the Democrats' timid half- measures and the Republicans' mindless anti-government creed."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-third-party-stump-speech-we-need/2011/09/22/gIQAj8wK_story.html
(or google title of story)


11 Oct 11 - 04:58 PM (#3237396)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton

From The Times "passionate, but pointless"


11 Oct 11 - 05:10 PM (#3237412)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

That's right, Sawz... The chimp may have some real bad persoanl habits but his politics are right on...

Matt Miller is a loon, Q, with David Brooks not too far behind... What got the US to spending 17% of its GNP on health care in the first place was exactly what Miller now say is the solution... Kinda like leach therapy... Slashing corporate tax??? What's the difference if it's 35%, 3% of 10 million %... They won't pay any just like they don't pay any now... Matt Miller is a puppet without a real brain that thinks independent of what the Koch brothers stick in there every day... Not sure where David gets his looniness but I think he comes by it more honestly than Matt...

B~


11 Oct 11 - 05:30 PM (#3237430)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.

Not a true statement. Air travel does not in any way defy gravity...

You mean the THEORY of gravity, dontcha Beardie? Like the theory of evolution, the theory of global warming, etc?


11 Oct 11 - 05:38 PM (#3237440)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Exxonmobil 2009
Income - 35 billion
Income taxes - 15 billion
Net Income - 20 billion
(from which payments made to the many shareholders)

Total revenues - 311 billion
Total expenses - 276 billion
Earnings/common share - $3.98

2008
Income - 83 billion
Income taxes - 36.5 billion
2007
Income - 71.4 billion
Income taxes - 30 billion

Does not include sales taxes, etc.

I could do Microsoft and show a much larger percentage of profit-

The U.S. would be Slobovia without these generators of jobs and taxes.
The tax system needs reform, but claiming corporations pay no taxes is idiotic nonsense.


11 Oct 11 - 05:40 PM (#3237441)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Above Exxonmobil data from 2009 Annual Report.


11 Oct 11 - 05:54 PM (#3237448)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Those are not corporate tax figures ... Those are other tax figures... They include everything including the payroll taxes they pay their employees, the taxes they pay the state and localities for property owned... They are not based on the profits the corporation made... This is more corporate smoke and mirrors...

B~


11 Oct 11 - 06:20 PM (#3237460)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.

1. Source, Please?

2. Please break it down to specifics - state taxes, federal taxes local taxes & etc. & include profit figures, not just gross sales.

3. What about the other several thousand major corporations?

The U.S. would be Slobovia without these generators of jobs...

Problem being that the jobs they create are IN Slobovia, not the U.S.


11 Oct 11 - 06:23 PM (#3237465)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Statement by Bobert incorrect. Sales taxes, etc. in the statement of income and expenses.
Read the summary annual report for 2009, especially the financial summary p. 38.
Total sales and operating revenus in 2009 was 301.5 billion, with total costs and deductions 276 billion, which included sales taxes, product purchases*, manufacturing and sales expenses, and other taxes incurred (foreign, etc.).
This leaves approx. 35 billion income before income taxes.

*Much of supply purchased from governments and producing companies around the world.


11 Oct 11 - 06:28 PM (#3237468)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Like Paul Harvey used to say, "And now for the rest of the story...


http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2010/04/06/173215/exxon-zero-taxes/

Read 'um an' weep, Q-ball...lol...

B:~)


11 Oct 11 - 06:43 PM (#3237474)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Jobs have gone elsewhere because costs are lower and efficiency greater overseas.

U. S. infrastructure has gone downhill, salaries too high, unions backward in thinking, education levels low, more progressive education and rise of competition in Asia and strengthening EU, lack of foresight and incentives on the part of government- you name it. The only entrepreneurship has been on the part of the communications industry, but developments outside the U.S. quickly caught up and forged ahead.


11 Oct 11 - 07:00 PM (#3237476)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

If our political, ideological rocket scientists on here, would click on their names, and read posts, from TWO weeks ago, and on back....they would be finding they are arguing the other side of the same arguments that they are arguing now!

Now to the 'other' party...You like Mitt??..The Obama administration released, TODAY, that the 'model' for Obama Care, that was used to pattern Obama Care after...was modeled after Mitt's Massachusetts health care bill!

Big difference there, huh????

Joe Biden, was the architect of the Patriot Act, in the mid 1990's!!..BEFORE 911!!

When they FINALLY discover that Wall Street was a HUGE, excuse me, the BIGGEST, supporter of Obama's Presidency bid in '08..do you think your dim lights will grow brighter??

Then you squabble and bitch about what 'news' source I am 'deluding' myself with.....and throw 'party line talking points' at me, like I'm some sort of anti-human, right wing Bobert Basher and Donny Dowser,..only to find out, that I was telling you the TRUTH, all along..that the 'two parties' are really a masquerade, pandering to one side or the other, AT A TIME, all along!
You may even remember my analogy of the boxer in the ring, hitting you with a 'right' another 'right' a 'left' and a 'right' and a 'left' ..but behind it ALL, was the SAME boxer...out to knock you out! (or unconscious).
That analogy, used on here, was over THREE years ago, during the elections!!! (anybody home?).....

Now its Wall Street...and today announced that they are going into the area where the 'rich' guys pulling the financial/political strings live....guess who lives in that area?.....David Koch, George Soros, Murdoch,..and a host of others!....that Either/Both side THINKS are their 'heroes'......................

.............when all along...................................you heard it HERE, .................................first!

Weren't the earlier 'protest/folk' singers supposed to have some 'insight'?....and that made them 'hip'?....especially when they spoke out AGAINST the 'establishment'?

Guess what???................................except for a few on here....................................YOU are the establishment!

Happy Creative Moments........and Be Sane,

GfS


11 Oct 11 - 07:20 PM (#3237483)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Hmmmmm???

I though this thread was about the Wall Street protesters???

B~


11 Oct 11 - 08:02 PM (#3237510)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.

Jobs have gone elsewhere because costs are lower and efficiency greater overseas

No.

Jobs have gone elsewhere because a decent profit and a fair return on investment are no longer sufficient for the greedy bastards who pine for the days of The Gilded Age and wish they were J.P. Morgan - now they must make an obscene profit, and damn the consequences.

And also because these 'job producing patriots' don't really give a fuck about the USA or US workers as long as they keep making gobs of money - by any means necessary.


11 Oct 11 - 08:05 PM (#3237511)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.

And also because they can cheerfully exploit workers in foreign, non-union environments and treat them even more like shit wythan they treat U.S. workers.

And tell your story (that it's all the fault of the Unions in the U.S.) walking.


11 Oct 11 - 08:06 PM (#3237512)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Not to mention that India and China are building entire plants, turn key, and giving them to American corporations for free, land and all...

B~


11 Oct 11 - 08:40 PM (#3237523)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Get it through your thick skulls...the 'globalists' are NOT looking out for America, or American interests...just themselves! They don't want, or need to give a shit about you or me!..nor this country, other than using its military to attain their goals......and if using it, against us, will further THEIR goals, they will!
They only need a reason to make it LOOKED 'justified', and make it LOOK like 'it's for your own good'!
That is what is the goal of the Tea party, in conjunction with OWS, in conjunction with the Democraps, in conjunction with the Republicunts, your 'news' media, and EVERY thing they can exploit, to make divisions, hostile to each other....so they can 'quell', by force, and set up their agenda, that you will be compelled to comply with.....WITHOUT representation!
This is not rocket science, folks.
'Globalists'...you know, like 'World Dominators'! You will give up your freedoms WILLINGLY, some already have, to buy into their crap...and some of you are promoting just that.....on their behalf, because you believed them!...and still do!
It is YOU who they fear!...That is why the lies and secrecy! Now, either way you turn, you are caged in!

Have a wonderful practice session.

GfS


11 Oct 11 - 08:51 PM (#3237526)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

If ya' gonna talk the talk then ya gotta walk the walk... That means no more rant/lectures of a mix of Lyndon LaRouche/Ron Paul/ Wallie Wacko...

Join your local OWS and find out it ain't all about you...

Talk is cheap...

B~


11 Oct 11 - 09:55 PM (#3237552)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus

I think it's a shame that this much energy and enthusiasm still doesn't seem to be aimed at anything useful. A plan to organize and defeat congessmen (Repubs and Dems) who have filibustered the jopbs bill would be a meaningful step towards achieving the OWS avowed goals.
A successful grassroots movement should not support any political party---they should try to directly influence the members of any party that oppose their views.
To me, screaming at billionaires because they get government tax breaks is pointless; scream, instead, at the people who give them those breaks.Better yet, keep them from being elected. (note: observe Tea Party tactics)


11 Oct 11 - 09:58 PM (#3237553)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

"Not to mention that India and China* are building entire plants...."
Now why didn't the Americans think of that?
*You forgot to add South Korea and Taiwan.

Overall profit margins for the whole of industry are meaningless.
Takes time to winkle them out, but a few figures-
2005 levels:
Internet companies- 21%; 1st Q 2011- 23.8%
Lumber companies - --; 18% 1st Q 2011
Major Banks- 16%; 1st Q 10.5% (money center banks)
Newspapers- 11%; 7% 2011 1st Q*
Multimedia- 9%
Oil and gas- 9% (1998- 7.4%); 1st Q 2011- 6.2% integrated majors, oil&gas expl. companies 10%)
Clothing- 5%
Auto- 3%
Groceries- 1.5%
* This places major integrated Oil & Gas companies at no 114 in the order of profitability. Size cannot be equated with profit margin.
-----------------
Closed end equity funds 2011 1st Q- 81% Yes, this sort of thing needs oversight and regulation. Closed end foreign- 38%

Of course the loonies who cannot read a balance sheet will continue to rant against corporations, without effect.


11 Oct 11 - 10:06 PM (#3237554)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.

Overall profit margins for the whole of industry are meaningless.

Tell it to industry.

Oh, and how about some figures that aren't 6 years old?


11 Oct 11 - 10:12 PM (#3237555)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Agreed, Q....

We should be building plants here... I'm all for that... Use tax money to compete... The right calls that socialism... I call it competing to keep Americans employed... That's why we need to pass a job bill..

Sorry, dick, but lotta these folks ain't where you want them to be and may never be where you want them to be... Some will get there but it's a process... We're kinda back to Square One and need a new look...

OWS is in its infant stage... Like to see you attend your closest OWS "General Assembly" and put your 2 cents worth in...

B~


11 Oct 11 - 11:06 PM (#3237569)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

When someone starts a post with "Get it through your thick skulls..." I know that what follows is not going to be worth reading. Anyone with that attitude is nothing but a schoolyard bully and he's too concerned with his own ego to bother with facts and reason.

PHOOEY

Don Firth


11 Oct 11 - 11:55 PM (#3237589)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Horseshit!

GfS


12 Oct 11 - 12:15 AM (#3237594)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

Gentlemen, we see how easily agreements can go to shit, don't we.

Fuck!


12 Oct 11 - 12:22 AM (#3237596)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Yeah, it begins with silly children who don't want to listen, because they're afraid they might have to THINK, and they don't want to do that, and respond with profound rebuttals, or constructive 'thoughts', say mature things like "PHOOEY"....run away to go suck their thumbs, Watch T.V., and are entertained while their nation turns to divided chaos.....even their own party!

Makes ya' wonder, whose payroll these guys on?


GfS


12 Oct 11 - 12:29 AM (#3237597)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

Much of the day I'm out at Westlake Park participating in the Occupy Seattle demonstrations, along with talking with local representatives.

What are YOU doing other than dipping epithets from your toilet, GfS?

Don Firth


12 Oct 11 - 12:39 AM (#3237599)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Trying to keep you from drowning.

GfS


12 Oct 11 - 12:57 AM (#3237603)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

Crude and unimaginative, GfS. Not only do you think with your spleen, you can't even come up with a clever insult.

Don Firth


12 Oct 11 - 02:09 AM (#3237609)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

No need to, you've insulted yourself quite adequately....I'm not playing this next round of petty bullshit with you. Stick to the topic.

GfS


12 Oct 11 - 02:32 AM (#3237614)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Joe Offer

Boys, boys, boys.....

[be nice]


12 Oct 11 - 02:36 AM (#3237616)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

I'm trying....!!

GfS


12 Oct 11 - 03:16 AM (#3237628)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton

Subsidising industry will NOT promote growth in the economy, it is simply a way of buying time.

Without growth, the system is fucked its as simple as that,

Please stop arguing about how to fix the system, your choices are extreme poverty, reduced standard of living, services cut, huge rates of unemployment etc, to re-set an economic system which has failed and will definately fail again in a few years.....or, accept economic an social hardship in an attempt to find something better,

The most important element is unity, the OWS movement is too divisive, too many ideas which alienate socially conservative people....the majority in your country and mine.


12 Oct 11 - 03:38 AM (#3237636)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Well said, Ake.

Hey, how have you been doing?

GfS


12 Oct 11 - 07:22 AM (#3237729)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

Ake, you are correct in what you say. However, the boat you're missing on this one is that OWS is not politically driven (in terms of the movement). It's simply people saying, "I have had e-fuc#ing-nuff!"

Yes, it's starry-eyed idealism, and yes the OWS people are not united (except in being not united), but that may be its saving grace. The thing that broke the various movements back in the 1960s was that very cohesiveness people are asking for now.

I don't expect you to recall SNCC or NAACP or the then-rising Black Power movement, but what had been a fairly cohesive approach to 'getting the job done' was splintered by in-fighting and when ML King was murdered, the nail was driven into the coffin. Concomitantly, many people from the 'freedom' movement were also working to end the Vietnam War. They were the two foci of well-meaning people at that time.

The FBI was at wit's end trying to keep track of who's who in the world of what I will loosely call 'resistance'. The US government could denigrate the groups more easily because there were just two of them. I hope people learned from that. The OWS movement has a dozen concerns, each seemingly different yet each connected by one thing: MONEY and its abuse. Yes, the environment is in serious trouble. Yes, the economy is in the toilet. Yes, gay rights are not being addressed (hang on old friend, that's only one of the issues). Yes, poverty is rampant. Yes, the theft of billions has not been explained. Yes, there are separate laws for the rich and for the poor. Yes, wars around the globe are started for political reasons. Yes, there are multiple issues on the table. Yes, it's driving the Democrats, Republicans and Wall Street nutzo that no one will tell them "what they want."

My answer to the Republicans, Democrats and Wall Street is simple: You already know what we want. So don't bug us with small talk, something YOU want to engage us in so you can figure out how to attack us. We got nothing to say until such time as you get your head OUT of your collective ass and address what you know ARE the issues. You got the cops, you got the guns, but you ain't got us.

Basically, the response to Wall Street and their minions is get lost. We don't want to speak with you. You do NOT represent us, not now and no other time. Now, Wall Street speaking through Washington wants to establish rules for the fight. Really? We'll establish rules when the dust settles. Right now, it is not to OWS's benefit to establish rules. Rules will help only the monied class. We already know what their rules are.

That's my read, anyway. Does it make sense? I don't know. But I do know that the other way didn't. Fight by the other guy's rules and you lose. Something we all should remember: there are no rules in a street fight.

Keep well, Ake.


12 Oct 11 - 08:47 AM (#3237761)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.

That's my read, anyway. Does it make sense?

You Betcha!


12 Oct 11 - 10:14 AM (#3237820)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST

"...There are those on here, who like to paint me as some sort of hostile creature..."

Geez, wonder why that might be!?!

Doesn't have anything to do with 8:40 PM or 12:22 PM.


12 Oct 11 - 12:29 PM (#3237880)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton

Sorry guys...just got in from work.

Brucie Baby.....you always make sense!,but we are just looking at this issue fron two slightly different perspectives, I despise the financial institutions probably as much if not more than you do, but we differ in how we would seek "reform" them.

I understand what you have written and it makes excellent sense, but in practice it could lead to the same people in power just with a police state in place to enforce that power.

I dont suppose there are many here more to the left than I am politically, but socially I am very much a traditionalist, and I believe that the vast majority of ordinary folk are of the same mind.
Their aim in life is to have a family, a job, and a little freedom, they are not interested in a superindustrial workhouse.

Inspiration and unity, not politics are what is required to form a new type of society....."You Betcha!!"

I wont be so hard on GFS Bruce....If Don is going to make snide remarks about GfS "dipping in the toilet bowl", he must expect some of the shit to stick when GfS retaliates......I thought it was an excellent witty response...(the biter bit, as it were).

Thanks for your good wishes, and I will be writing to you to let you know how things are going.

Greetings Sanity!....Leave these old "libs" alone, you put their blood pressure off the clock. :0)


12 Oct 11 - 12:35 PM (#3237884)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk

Bruce...right on!


12 Oct 11 - 12:44 PM (#3237888)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Songbob

Socialized/Privatized


Come, all you union members
And workers in your shop;
And all the laid-off folks who dread
The day the checks will stop;
Employers paying three folks,
Who used to employ ten;
We are the angry Ninety-nine,
Marching once again.

Refrain:

From Wall Street home to Main Street, shout loud the clear refrain:
"They've socialized the losses, and privatized the gains!" (2X)

The One-Percenters at the top,
With greed their only aim,
Have done their best to hide the way
They've played their selfish game.
So secretly they've tweaked the rules,
To keep us in the dark;
But now we're waking from our sleep,
And gathering in the park.


Refrain

When profits rise so high, you see,
And wages stay so low,
It's obvious the powers that be
Just don't want us to know.
As Joseph Stiglitz put it,
In words so clear and plain,
They socialize the losses,
But privatize the gain.


Last Refrain:

From Wall Street home to Main Street, shout loud the clear refrain:
"The people take the losses, the bosses take the gains!" (2X)



©2011 Annie Storr & Bob Clayton


12 Oct 11 - 01:19 PM (#3237902)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

I think the reason that GfS and Ake keep attacking me is because I am not a defeatist. I'm not content to sit in the corner and whine.

I'm out and DOING!

Don Firth


12 Oct 11 - 01:57 PM (#3237910)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

That is an excellent song, Bob. Applause for the two of you and best wishes. Real good.


12 Oct 11 - 02:34 PM (#3237922)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce

Union LEADERSHIP is as guilty as the Wall Street CEOs...


"A labor leader in Chicago is expected to receive pension payments of nearly $500,000 a year, while another could get about $438,000 a year, according to reports Wednesday.
The Chicago Tribune and WGN-TV, which obtained information about union pension benefits during a joint investigation, said at least eight union officials in Chicago were eligible for what were described as inflated city pensions on top of union pensions for the same period of employment."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44872639/ns/us_news-life/


12 Oct 11 - 02:40 PM (#3237926)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk

No, Don, that is definitely not why you and they don't get along, and you flatter yourself in imagining it is. The only way you guys could get along, IMO, would be if you met each other in real life, rather than through a remote device such as a computer, and you got to know each other as real people...and related on a great variety of levels rather than just fighting about politics. You would probably get along much better in that case. I can't guarantee it...but the odds would be greatly improved.

Remember: "politics is the Great Divider" (I said that) Its very premise is to divide and conquer. It lives on conflict (often even while preaching the gospel of "unity").


12 Oct 11 - 03:04 PM (#3237945)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

"Union LEADERSHIP is as guilty as the Wall Street CEOs..."



If the facts are as stated in the article, BB, you are correct in being aghast. That said, what point are you making?


12 Oct 11 - 03:26 PM (#3237955)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST

"
Come, all you union members
And workers in your shop;
"

Shouldn't the Union members hold heir OWN leadership to ( at least) the standards they are told to hold the Corporations'?

By failing to do so, aren't they putting forth a double standard, that "Those who I support should not have to play by the same rules that those I disagree with do."?

The same reason I posted Obama getting more Corporate money than Bush or McCain. There is a tendency here to complain about the flaws of the other side while ignoring greater examples in those that are supported.


12 Oct 11 - 03:29 PM (#3237957)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce

last was mine...



"
Come, all you union members
And workers in your shop;
"

Shouldn't the Union members hold heir OWN leadership to ( at least) the standards they are told to hold the Corporations'?

By failing to do so, aren't they putting forth a double standard, that "Those who I support should not have to play by the same rules that those I disagree with do."?

The same reason I posted Obama getting more Corporate money than Bush or McCain. There is a tendency here to complain about the flaws of the other side while ignoring greater examples in those that are supported.


12 Oct 11 - 04:37 PM (#3237995)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.

Well BeeBee, several things.

1.If one actually reads the article cited, it was the Illinois Legislature that created this farce, not the Unions, so perhaps your outrage should be directed at them.

2. Here we have 2 or 3 individuals possibly getting between $300K & $500K. The corporate princes you love and defend regularly get MANY TIMES that per anum at separation PLUS multi-million dollar "bonuses" each year while employed.

As just one example of hundreds, General Motors' head Rick Wagoner got a $20 million retirement package as a reward for driving the company into bankruptcy.

Its a difference in kind, as well as in degree.

Try again.


12 Oct 11 - 05:55 PM (#3238044)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

Well, this thread being about OWS, you won't hear too much from either 'side' in the turmoil. OWS doesn't really care which party or persuasion the crooks are purporting to be with or people are assuming they're from. That should be fairly clear by now, imo. It's news, but so what? Been going on for decades. And soon it will have to come to a full stop.


12 Oct 11 - 06:42 PM (#3238065)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

I'm afraid I have to disagree, Little Hawk.

When two people are face-to-face, just by that very proximity, they are generally forced to act in a civilized manner. NOT to do so could result in their having to have a lot of dental work done, that is, if they behave in the same manner that some people do here on Mudcat. Here, hiding safely behind the anonymity of a "GUEST" moniker, they can freely say anything they want without fear of consequences. Therefore, especially in the case of "GUESTS," what they feel free to say behind this screen of anonymity may be more revealing of who they really are than if you were sitting across the table from them.

Don Firth


12 Oct 11 - 06:51 PM (#3238071)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

By the way--

Politics:    def.
A battle of selfish interests masquerading as a conflict of lofty principles.
Don Firth


12 Oct 11 - 06:55 PM (#3238072)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.

If yer gonna quote Ambrose Bierce, do it right:

POLITICS, n. A strife of interests masquerading as a contest of principles; The conduct of public affairs for private advantage.


12 Oct 11 - 07:01 PM (#3238075)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

I didn't know that was Ambrose Bierce. I hear it on the radio yesterday and jotted it just down as I heard it.

Don Firth


12 Oct 11 - 07:56 PM (#3238108)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Been gone all day but:

Ake,

No, you don't seem to understand that if the US doesn't subsidize industries (not CEO's salaries) then China or India, both who are perfectly willing to do so, will take them... In the late 70's the Japanese subsidized their steel industry and guess what??? The US lost it's entire steel industry... I'm not willing to let other countries, either from currency manipulation or subsidies, steal any more of our jobs...

brucie,

You got it right... The corporate shills and apologists want to box *US* into their game... Screw them... They are going to have to come to *US*... Don't expect "white papers" from OWS... We aren't interested in the details... That's up to Congressional staffers... We just want to change the culture and the conversation... We do that and the details will take care of themselves...

bb,

There is a strong correlation between union busting and stagnated wages be the working class... Using anecdotal stories is what "management" always fall back on when they have no other reason to explain why they hate unions... Management is out to steal people's labor... Theft!!!

Don,

Keep on truckin'...

B~


12 Oct 11 - 08:13 PM (#3238117)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: freda underhill

Fantastic song, where can I get the tune?


12 Oct 11 - 08:19 PM (#3238120)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.

Well, that there radio feller shoulda given the proper attribution, Don.
Here's another of Bierce's:

POLITICIAN, n. An eel in the fundamental mud upon which the superstructure of organized society is reared. When he wriggles he mistakes the agitation of his tail for the trembling of the edifice. As compared with the statesman, he suffers the disadvantage of being alive.


12 Oct 11 - 08:29 PM (#3238123)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

I posted this somewhere just recently, but I think it merits repeating (came up with this one on my own):

politics:   etymology

Compound word, composed of

Ex, meaning "has-been," and Ticks, meaning "blood-sucking vermin."

Don Firth


12 Oct 11 - 08:51 PM (#3238131)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk

You're not getting my drift, Don. But I bet if we were sitting at a table somewhere, you would...not because we were forced to act in a civilized manner, but because our natural inclination in the presence of another REAL human being instead of some words on a computer screen would make us more aware of our own behaviour. The same goes for if you and GfS were sitting at a table together. Your natural inclinations would probably result in some far more tolerant conversations than is the case here. Here it's safe for you to just stay angry over your personal fantasy of what GfS is like, treasure your dislike, build it, chew on it, and keep harping on it. You enjoy your anger. It makes you feel good and righteous, and you chew on it and keep reliving it, and telling us all how awful GfS is and how much your anger is justified. It becomes a self-amplifying habit, like feedback.

Sitting at a table, though, you would almost immediately find out that GfS is not who you think he is at all...not the image in your mind. And I think you'd then both act in a civilized manner...because, for one thing, your curiosity about the other person would impel you too.

It's not just "safe" for GfS or someone else you don't like to hide behind their computer screen here, Don. It's equally safe for you too. And for me. And that's why we all get a bit carried away from time to time and say things we probably wouldn't when face to face.

Everything you say to me about GfS amounts to an effort on your part to just persuade me that GfS is "a bad person" who deserves your contempt. Ain't gonna work, Don. I've spoken to GfS in real life, I know that person beyond some words on a screen, and I therefore don't buy that version of who GfS is. GfS isn't a bad person, neither are you, and neither am I.


12 Oct 11 - 09:02 PM (#3238133)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

I DO get your drift, Little Hawk. But I'm certain that GfS would NOT have the guts to say the same kind of childishly insulting things to me face-to-face that he does behind the anonymity of his computer screen. Not because I would beat the crap out of him if he did (I am far too civilized for that), but because I'm looking at HIM, not his words on a computer screen.

Behind the screen, he can feel "detached" from his childish insults. In person, he can't. He has to "own" them.

Don Firth


12 Oct 11 - 09:18 PM (#3238141)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Ditto, Don...

GfinS talks out of both sides of her mouth... She takes on Libertarian/Lyndon LaRouche policy positions without any thought and then when she is called on them to explain, attacks the folks who ask her to explain???

And yeah, Don is correct... She wouldn't have the balls to say stuff to Don or me face-to-face that she feels perfectly okay to hit the "submit" button and let some rather insensitive and childish get posted...

A little less cute hostility and a little more cognizant thinking would be just fine but back her into a corner on her policy positions and its either juvenile responses or another blue clicky to a song???

B~


12 Oct 11 - 09:28 PM (#3238143)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST

I, as usual, mean no offence/offense to anyone: Is this thread about the OWS or not? IF so, let us continue on. If not. WTF is GfS?

Man, I need something to smoke, know what I mean, Vern?

Just noticed I missed the top piece of the colon there. Damned good thing I'm not a surgeon.

Love and peece/peice/pease/ relaxation to all.


12 Oct 11 - 09:29 PM (#3238144)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

Dam, Hoover,

That was me.


12 Oct 11 - 09:35 PM (#3238146)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Exactly, brucie...

Lets have a f'n serious discussion about real policies that effect the entire planet...

That's what OWS is all about...

B~


12 Oct 11 - 09:38 PM (#3238149)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

Bingo, Bobert. I just heard on another thread the you ain't Black. When did THAT happen?


12 Oct 11 - 09:44 PM (#3238153)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

I ain't black??? Sheet fire... Lemme go look in the mirror... I'll get back to ya'll...

B~


12 Oct 11 - 09:46 PM (#3238154)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

Uh.....are you okay, Brucie?

By the way, Bobert, I missed it on the other thread, but I want to heartily congratulate you on your recent triumph! Good going!

Now, back to our regular broadcast.....

Don Firth


12 Oct 11 - 09:57 PM (#3238158)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Thanks, Don...

So now back to out regularly scheduled discussion about OWS...

Here in Charlotte it's Saturday but we have a bout 35 camped out in front on the court house...

B~


12 Oct 11 - 10:16 PM (#3238163)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,99

I have to know before I catch a few zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzs, are th


12 Oct 11 - 11:59 PM (#3238188)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,TIA

Bobert!
Is it true that you could say "I was born a poor black child..."?



Sorry. One of my all time fave movies.


13 Oct 11 - 06:21 AM (#3238264)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Suffet

Sorry to bring this discussion back to Occupy Wall Street, but here is a link to a YouTube video of me performing at OWS in New York this past Friday, October 7, 2011. I am playing my wonderful little Felix the Cat Martin guitar.

--- Steve


13 Oct 11 - 09:17 AM (#3238338)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

I liked that Steve Martin line myself, TIA...

I don't know what thread it is on but in spite of history as a skinny white guy living purdy much in the black community for many years I is still a skinny white guy...

Great union song, Steve... Keep 'um comin'...

B~


13 Oct 11 - 02:14 PM (#3238470)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus

Short of creating a real revolution in this country--which is extremely unlikely--- a protest can further its goals most effectively by influencing votes. I'm not suggesting that the OWS should affiliate with either party; rather they should try to exert control on who gets elected in both parties. An OWI coalition in congress could be an effective voice; even if it isn't as mellifluous as someone standing on a street corner singing protest songs with a banjo.


13 Oct 11 - 02:20 PM (#3238477)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: gnu

Suffet... excellent!


13 Oct 11 - 06:30 PM (#3238592)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Richard Bridge

300. And I gather the local equivalent of bulldozers go in at 7 am local time


13 Oct 11 - 07:20 PM (#3238611)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

The park where the protestors are camped out is private property. Unsanitary, unsightly and noisy conditions are a nuisance and hazard for residents and workers in the vicinity.


13 Oct 11 - 08:19 PM (#3238644)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.

the local equivalent of bulldozers go in at 7 am local time

Of course they do. That's how "the Man" has always dealt with peaceful protest- the Bonus Army and Coxey's Army come to mind out of dozens of examples.

Its a great tredition in The Land Of The Free.


13 Oct 11 - 08:24 PM (#3238646)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk

Rule by a corrupt Oligarchy is a hazard to virtually everyone.

Right of peaceable assembly to protest corruption is a given in any free society...but apparently only until it starts to worry those in charge of the corruption. ;-) Nothing new about that! It's one of the oldest stories in the world. I doubt that there is any place in the vicinity of Wall Street where these demonstrations could go on for long without the big hired fist of society's financial elite coming down to stop it on the basis of some supposed "hazard", that hazard being to themselves.

Excuses will always be found by those in power as to why those not in power can't be allowed to stage a peaceful demonstration...and those in power will use force to stop it...pretending that they are protecting society by so doing. Some people will believe them.


13 Oct 11 - 08:27 PM (#3238648)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Suffet

FYI, Q...

Zuccotti Plaza is indeed privately owned, but its owners agreed to make it into a public space accessible 24 hours a day in return for a zoning variance.

I have been to the site seven times, and it is not at all unsanitary. If anything, it is very well maintained. As far as noise goes, yes, there is a lot during the day. But have you ever been to that part of Lower Manhattan? During the day it is just as noisy without the Occupy Wall Street encampment. Unsightly, of course, is is the eye of the beholder. So is nuisance. There are no residents in the vicinity, since it purely a commercial area. As far as being a hazard for workers, I never saw how that is possible. No one has to enter Zuccotti Plaza, since the sidewalks go around it. But even if someone does enter the plaza, what hazard is there?

--- Steve


13 Oct 11 - 08:35 PM (#3238653)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Suffet

Greetings:

If you enjoy my song Union Warriors, here is a link to a studio recording which you are welcome to download for free until the end of this month. You are also welcome to listen to it on-line for free without any time limit.

Go for it!

--- Steve


13 Oct 11 - 08:41 PM (#3238656)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

Ths OWS people themselves are keeping the park clean. That said, similar things are happening across the country (US) and very soon, Canada. The protesters are not screaming radicals. They are ordinary people who will continue to protest until such time as fundamental changes are made to banking laws and the methods by which corporate financial transactions occur. No more free rides for corporations. No more free rides for banks.

About 60 MILLION people in the US are living below the poverty line. What part of that is hard for people to understand?

And speaking of people, when protests of this sort happened against the Vietnam War, the presidents at least mentioned them. Where is the present president and what is he saying? I tried Google news but found nothing. Can anyone point me to a credible source?

Thank you.


13 Oct 11 - 09:03 PM (#3238665)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Jeri

From Obama's press conference last week. He acknowledges the protest and that people are dissatisfied, but it's an opportunity to hit a talking point or several. I suppose it's not so bad, since the talking points are about how to fix things, but I wish there had been more about the people.


13 Oct 11 - 09:14 PM (#3238666)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Friday, Zuccotti Park will be closed by the owners, one-third at a time, for cleaning. The company emphasizes the need for park rules to be followed- no tents or sleeping bags, no sidewalk obstructions, no storing of private property, no laying on benches.

The upshot will be interesting. There have been reports of trouble makers moving to the site.


13 Oct 11 - 09:22 PM (#3238670)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

I expect there will be trouble makers in Montreal, Q. Just the way it is. When people feel disenfranchised, as so many do, stuff happens. The problem has been mention before:

"An imbalance between rich and poor is the oldest and most fatal ailment of all republics."

Plutarch (46-120 AD)


13 Oct 11 - 11:23 PM (#3238704)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

Although many Easterners are still under the impression that Seattle is little more than a clump of log cabins and igloos (with the "Space Needle," left over from the Seattle World's Fair in 1962, standing in the middle of it – (view from Queen Anne Hill; looks like a storm coming in from the East), this city may be a bit more civilized than New York.

The demonstrators/protesters participating in "Occupy Seattle" in sympathy with and in support of the "Occupy Wall Street" protesters are occupying Westlake Park in downtown Seattle. They were not allowed to camp there overnight because of a pre-existing city ordinance, but Mayor Mike McGinn suggested that they camp on the large lawn beside the County-City Building (City Hall), a few blocks south of Westlake Park, and allows them to use the sanitary facilities in the building.

No bulldozers, no riot police. Mayor McGinn understands what it's all about and is in sympathy with the demonstrations.

(I'm glad I voted for him, and I'll vote for him again.)

Don Firth


14 Oct 11 - 04:46 AM (#3238759)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

I received this via e-mail sent from NYC at 3:12 am today from a friend who is with the OWS 'group'. It's worth reading.


"Spent the last several hours cleaning up the Plaza in the rain. There wasn't a cigarette butt left on the ground by the time we finished. We even scrubbed the walls. People's belongings were left under tarps or in waterproof tubs. It's a disorganized bivouac, but don't believe anyone who tells you it wasn't sanitary.

I just hope nobody gets clobbered tomorrow morning when the police move in. Everybody in the Plaza is prepared for arrest. The only question is how it all goes down. This will not be the end of the movement, but it is probably the end of the beginning.

If you are awake at this late hour, and if you have not already sent an email to the Mayor's office in support of Occupy Wall Street, please consider doing so."


Posted here without comment.


14 Oct 11 - 09:13 AM (#3238857)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

Seems the clean-up has been postponed. Therefore no police, no possible confrontation. Good news for OWS.


14 Oct 11 - 09:31 AM (#3238864)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.

No confrontation? Gee, I bet Bloomberg is disappointed.


14 Oct 11 - 11:57 AM (#3238915)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Donuel

Over 1,100 cities and towns now have Wall St. occupiers.


14 Oct 11 - 12:15 PM (#3238923)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.

Wall Street protesters arrested in Denver
By STEVEN K. PAULSON and THOMAS PEIPERT - Associated Press | AP – 40 mins ago 10/14/11

DENVER (AP) — Dozens of police in riot gear have herded Wall Street protesters away from the Colorado state Capitol grounds, arresting about two dozen and dismantling their encampment.

Most retreated without resisting. Some chanted "Peaceful!" or "Shameful!" as police moved in early Friday.


14 Oct 11 - 05:27 PM (#3239069)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Jack Campin

NYPD cop runs over a protester


14 Oct 11 - 10:15 PM (#3239177)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: ollaimh

the financial instruments manufactured by wall street after 1990 whic didn't exist before, and made up three quarters of the available financial instruments by the crash,were an uber ponzie scheme. no regulations and the fact the investment backs used other peoples money to do this led to most of these vestements being worthless. this financialization of the economy was great in the boom, but the bust is tough.

the total lack of the banks own money and the almost fictional nature of these new financial instruments was a fornula for disaster and shows the need for major regulation.

i hope this wall street protest is the brginning of a people's take back of the right to control the economy from these flim flam artists.

i remain amazed anyone bought these new financial instruments but they did.

if america makes major investments in infrastructure and stops subsidizing the oil industry and stops expensive wars and many overseas bases. they could concentrate on sustainable energy and under cut the reason jobs over seas are so attractive to corporations. cheap oil shipping to sell in the usa.without the subsidized oil a lot of these exported jobs would be untenable. with subsidized sustyainable energy a lot of jobs are made at home.

if this isn't well under way before the catastrphhes of the climate change happen we are in for real trouble. so go wall street protestors. it's been too long the totalitarian corporations have been able to errode the new deal and the progress under the johnson adminstration. without a response america will be a third world country in a few decades and the corporations will be happily centered elsewhere.


14 Oct 11 - 11:54 PM (#3239216)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

"and the corporations will be happily centered elsewhere."

Does anyone believe that billions of people with computers cannot shut down government? Does anyone think that within three weeks/months that won't happen? The phone, i'net and mail will close. THINK about that. Then say goodnight Gracie.


15 Oct 11 - 03:36 AM (#3239242)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton

Why dont they all just go home and read a good book?

A little Marx might help them to understand how Capitalism works.

As I said on another thread,everything about Capitalism is perfectly acceptable, so long as it's the inhabitants of OTHER nations who are being killed or exploited.

Chickens....home....roost???


15 Oct 11 - 04:40 AM (#3239254)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

I think the "Occupy Wall Street" folks know what they're doing, Ake.

And it's not just Wall Street. These protests are happening all over the country. The PEOPLE are fed up!

Don Firth


15 Oct 11 - 06:08 AM (#3239285)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Richard Bridge

I understand that an equivalent is on its way to the UK.

Good.


15 Oct 11 - 09:38 AM (#3239361)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Occupy Charlotte @ 3:00 today!!!

I'll be there...

B~


15 Oct 11 - 10:27 AM (#3239376)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton

"The people are fed up!"

Well where I come from, the people dont seem to have a clue what is happening to them....and they are quite pissed because their toys are being taken away.

You want a Capitalist system, you have to accept that you are going to get fucked now and again.......now just line up like good boys and prepare yourself for a long, slow, screw.

About two decades worth I should think.
I suppose most of us will expire before then, but dont worry, the system aint fussy.....It don't care what it screws! :0)


15 Oct 11 - 11:47 AM (#3239402)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

Saw a thing in the Washington Post. Seems the guy who would be president--Obama--has decided the OWS movement is just what HIS reelection campaign needs. Yeah, right! Like he's not part of the problem.

Are there any independents running in the US who are worth getting behind?


15 Oct 11 - 12:45 PM (#3239431)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: bobad

Sign spotted at Occupy Wall Street:

"Reaganomics played out;
Wealth trickles up
Burden trickles down"


15 Oct 11 - 02:40 PM (#3239473)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

Spoken like a true, old timey communist, Ake. There are still a few around here, too, sitting in the back booth of the Blue Moon Tavern, where they've been since the mid-1950s. Whining and moaning about how rotten the system is, but still just sitting and drinking, sitting and drinking, sitting and drinking…….

"Well where I come from, the people dont seem to have a clue what is happening to them....and they are quite pissed because their toys are being taken away."

I presume you're talking about the folks involved in the "Occupy" demonstrations around the country—and on the radio this morning, I heard that it's catching on in cities all over the world. Wrong-o, Ake! They DO know what has happened to them and is still happening and they are, as the line from the movie goes, "mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!!"

They KNOW what it's all about.

That's why they are there!

This is a possitive sign. A VERY positive sign!

Don Firth

P. S.   I am for regulated capitalism, preferential (instant run-off) voting, and hard-and-fast laws absolutely forbidding lobbying (polite name for bribery) and rigid regulations on campaign financing. Lots of other stuff, too, but that will do for now. I stayed awake during my high school civics classes, I know a bit of history, and I don't get my political views from radio talk shows.


15 Oct 11 - 06:58 PM (#3239621)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Well, the biggest difference between this weeks demonstration and last week's was that every where we marched we were treated as heroes... I mean, people waving and honking... Might have only been 300-400 of *US* but seems there were hundreds, perhaps thousands of folks showing support... I mean, workers of the Omni Hotel coming out to applaud us... Bus drivers honking... Taxi drivers honking...

We are definitely showing the Tea Party what a thru grassroots movement looks like...

On a music side, I took two paddle drums and there was a kid who was there last week with a little toy drum and I gave him one and the two of us added quite a bit to the rally... I'm going to make a couple plastic 5 gallon paint bucket drums for next week and me and the kid will really make some noise...

B~


15 Oct 11 - 07:28 PM (#3239633)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

Thanks for the "on-the-scene" reports, Bobert!

Being wheelchair-bound, it isn't easy for me to get on a bus and head down to Westlake Park here in Seattle, but from reports I get from people who were there, these folks really do know where they're coming from and what they are there for. And the reactions of those who work in the area or who are passing through are almost always positive and encouraging (except for the occasional sorehead, of course).

Unlike New York City, even Seattle's mayor is sympathetic with the "Occupiers!"

It's real easy for people sitting in front of their computers and who have never been near the scene to sneer and pontificate. They are the ones who don't know what it's all about. But that sure doesn't stop them from venturing their opinions. For what they're worth.

Don Firth


15 Oct 11 - 08:00 PM (#3239637)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

I have not been staying for the "General Assembly" meetings, Don because they go into the night but I have been making my feelings known at OccupyCharlotte.com... The "General Aseembly" stuff is more for the younginz... They are the ones who stand to suffer much worse than we have... They don't need a bunch of their grandparents and parents telling them how to do stuff... They have their shit together and I love it... I'll do what I can do with noise and whatever they want me to do...

BTW, the sign I made for today's demonstration simply read "THINK 1776"... Lotta folks commented on it and my reply was "Meet the new Brit, same as the old Brit"... or "No taxation without representation"...

I'm loving this... Never in my wildest imagination would we see a global uprising against the rich and the cheaters...

This is just where we were headed when the right took out our leaders in the 60s...

B~


15 Oct 11 - 08:28 PM (#3239651)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

After spemding a lot of years gnashing my teeth, I feel good about this.

Don Firth


15 Oct 11 - 08:34 PM (#3239656)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Our turn, Don!!!

Cowabunga!!!

B~


16 Oct 11 - 12:33 AM (#3239703)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: freda underhill

Four Charts That Explain why the Protesters Are Angry..


16 Oct 11 - 12:49 AM (#3239705)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: ollaimh

and furthermore, without getting into the theory of money, not monatary theory, i am no monatarists. money is over ninety per cent held in financial forms other than specie. that is other than coins bills gold silver.

banks and other financial institutions keep most money in records with no actual folding money form. the money supply therefore is greatly affected by loans debentures bonds and other financial instruments. the more issued the more inflation of the money supplu and a rise in prices. so what i am getting at is the five fold increase in bank created securities done on wall street in the post 1999 "creative" financila boom following deregulation resulted in a significant increase in the money supply. however the inflationary effect were slow in the non financial economy. the prices of securities rose percipitously due to the increase in the money supply then as the price raises flowed into the main economy the "bubble" stableized then burst.

the investmnent bankers who created all these new bundled securities, options, derivitives and debentures, and even credit default swaps sold off their own holding before the boom hit the regular economy. in other words they created the boom , sold near the high but enough before the bust to avoid being asked too many questions, then sold off these inflated securities to the unsuspecting.

essentially,this was the largest ponzie scheme in history. and the smart guys were long gone by the time people were getting nervous. and long before the bust. most of the really big profiteers were the very same people who created these new financial instruments in the first place.deregulation handed controll over the money supply to the profiteers who knew how to manipulate the m oney supply. moreover these new securities were created with no deposit hedge that used to be put into the investments by backs before deregulation. in other words the banks stopped putting any of their own money into these securities they were selling. an example is credit default swaps, which used to be a kind of insurance when offered by investment banks who financed them themselves, but the ones out there now have to issuer deposit. they depend entirely on market psychology for their value and are pure specualtion. rather than the insurance they used to be. they were used to spread ones risk over several sectors of the securities market by swapiing with other investement banks . now they are purely speculative instruments.

the biggest ponzie scheme in history , with the tax payer stuck with the bill.


16 Oct 11 - 04:01 AM (#3239734)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton

Don...that is the problem, "regulated Capitalism" no longer provides the growth required to keep the economy solvent.

That is why we have witnessed the series of "booms" in the last couple of decades, these booms were not only the work of corrupt bankers and financiers, but actively encouraged by capitalist governments, as a survival mechanism.

What i am saying is that without systemic change, the whole protest movement is counter productive.
It reinforces the idea, that this system can be repaired by stopping the financial sector doing what they are supposed to do under Capitalism.

If economic growth falls, your standard of living and public servces fall with it, how many of your young protesters realise that?......now is the time to go for real change....and I mean the way people think.


16 Oct 11 - 06:14 AM (#3239765)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

Read what I said again, Ake.

Regulated Capitalism.

That means NOT putting members of the particular business or industry on the agency that is supposed to be regulating it. Putting bankers and Wall Street brokers on the Securities and Exchange Commission and putting executives from pharmaceutical companies on the Food and Drug Administration, for example. THAT was Ronald Reagan's contribution to the dismantling of the regulatory agencies that FDR put in place in the 1930s that were a major factor in ending the Great Depression.

I know that as an avowed communist, anything having to do with capitalism is an anathema to you, but the fact is that capitalism works well IF it is properly regulated. I see no historical evidence that communism ever worked well, except on a very small scale.

Don Firth


16 Oct 11 - 07:39 AM (#3239785)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

The following is the introduction to a short story I wrote about five years ago. I post it to point out that this stuff ain't news to everyone--with no offense meant to anyone.

"We live on a planet that cries for our help, yet we continue to ignore those cries. We have despoiled our home and proven ourselves to be seriously remiss as respectable and responsible stewards. There is now a concerted effort by various governments, multi-nationals and special-interest groups to control the production and distribution of all resources. Eventually that will lead to a similar fate for people. We should be working hard to prevent this from happening, for ultimately Earth belongs not to a self-appointed elite, but rather to all God's creatures, great and small."

############################################

We have known since the earliest days of electronic banking that our system had troubles. Hell, we've known since 1929 that our system has troubles. The initial Wall Street Crash in '29 told us all we need to know. Absolutely nothing changed on the Wednesday after Black Tuesday--but people thought it had changed, and so it did.

As an eight-year old kid I knew 'something' was screwed up because jujubes went from four for a penny to three for a penny. I defy anyone to tell me that the value of the lowly jujube changed so drastically from one day to the next. I saw the same thing happen in a town I lived in where house prices doubled in a few months. I've seen the same thing between 1959 and the present with bread prices. When I was a young teenager, my grandmother sent me blocks out of my way (she thought the exercise was good for me) to buy what was then called 'day-old-bread'. Fresh, it was $.17 a loaf. Day-old was two loaves for that price. Today, the same loaf of bread sells for about $3.00 when it's on 'sale'. And jujubes go for about $.04 each.

A few years back the subject of conspiracy theories came up again on Mudcat. At the time a few of us were ridiculed because we suggested one might find the roots of the problem in what has come to be called 'the new world order'. Despite pointing out that the term has been in use since the late 1800s, we were told to put on our tinfoil hats because it was just blather, we should wait for the little green men, etc. Anyone want to borrow my hat?

In fact, Sir Isaac Newton who was the person who moved much of the world to what was called the gold standard in the early 1700s. It was in 1819 that Britain formally adopted it and it was in 1971 that the standard was finally formally dropped by the USA simply because there wasn't enough gold in "Fort Knox" to support the currency that was floating around.

A google of

D.L. Cuddy: Chronological History of the New World Order

contains a research of the term New World Order, and it is worth reading, imo. It is an unfortunate document in that some people are quoted just enough out of context or with insufficient information to easily check their credibility--but the basic information is there. For example,

'1954 -- Senator William Jenner said:

"Today the path to total dictatorship in the United States can be laid by strictly legal means, unseen and unheard by the Congress, the President, or the people... outwardly we have a Constitutional government. We have operating within our government and political system, another body representing another form of government, a bureaucratic elite which believes our Constitution is outmoded and is sure that it is the winning side.... All the strange developments in the foreign policy agreements may be traced to this group who are going to make us over to suit their pleasure.... This political action group has its own local political support organizations, its own pressure groups, its own vested interests, its foothold within our government, and its own propaganda apparatus."'

What isn't mentioned is that he was a follower of Senator Joe McCarthy and he was talking about communism. However, a rose by another name . . .

The following kinda sums it up.

'In 1913, prior to the passage of the Federal Reserve Act President Wilson's The New Freedom was published, in which he revealed:

"Since I entered politics, I have chiefly had men's views confided to me privately. Some of the biggest men in the U. S., in the field of commerce and manufacturing, are afraid of somebody, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it."'

I hesitate to call the above a conspiracy theorist. That's the usual 'ridicule' thrown at people who are coming to realize that maybe there actually IS such a thing and that while we think in terms of shorter time spans (mortgage of twenty years, TV shows of 24 minutes called a half hour, etc) there is nothing odd historically of thinking in terms of a few hundred years. The Chinese have been doing it for centuries (as it were).

I have thrice on Mudcat (I think) drawn attention to the article by Cuddy mostly because it documents the use of terms closely related to NWO. In fact, four or five American presidents have publicly acknowledged the term although each within different contexts. That said, they have used the term in such a way that maybe it's time folks had a good look at it.

Forget if you wish the use of names like Illuminati, Bilderbergers, Trilateral Commission, etc. We don't need them to demonstrate that "Something is happening here and ya don't know what it is, do you, Mr Jones."

It's lots simpler for this old boy: fuckin' jujubes cost sixteen times what they did when I was a kid dammit, and that's a rip-off of gigantic proportions, because as happened with the lowly jujube so too happens with bread, houses and 401's.

Forty-six percent of the people elected to congress are millionaires. To quote from a song by the Dixie Chicks,

'There's Your Trouble, There's Your Trouble
You Keep Seeing Double With The Wrong One
You Can't See I Love You, You Can't See She Doesn't
But You Just Keep Holding On
There's Your Trouble'


Felt good to get that off my chest. Have a nice day, all.


16 Oct 11 - 09:36 AM (#3239822)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

Bruce, may I put that on the 'Occupy Wall St' Facebook page? Mine also, and several other 'Occupy' pages? (Obviously, giving your name as Author)


16 Oct 11 - 11:08 AM (#3239853)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: bobad

Some more notable signs from the Occupy Protests:

`The American dream is a pyramid scheme.`

`Èat the rich, they taste like chicken.`


16 Oct 11 - 08:52 PM (#3239978)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Songwronger

This is interesting. The woman at THIS BLOG writes about the demonstrations in Spain this past summer. The protestors called themselves the Indignados. Young liberals for the most part. The people leading the movement convinced them that they could show "the establishment" disdain by not voting in the upcoming elections, and the young people complied. The right-wing party made huge gains. The young liberals were tricked by what turned out to be right-wing leadership.

And now some of the people who ran that operation are in New York City helping with the OWS protests.

One of the things the organizers in Spain did was to march people around in useless demonstrations, venting steam and energy with pointless activity. The same thing's being done in the OWS protests. And then there's all the talk about "consensus." It'll never be reached, and that's the point of forcing the consensus model on movements like this--to make sure the group never comes together as a whole.


17 Oct 11 - 01:04 AM (#3240042)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

Hi, Songwronger.

You're right. I also heard from another trusted friend that in Texas the Democrats are getting THEIR faces in it and helping the OWS folks along. Seems it's lots like incest: keep it in the family.

Thing is, they both need the 60 percent living below the poverty line--half of whom are voters, and until such time as they both put up or shut up, they need us more than we need them. That's the trump card, and if no one gives it away, they got NO choice BUT to deal. Thing is, promises don't cut it this time. SUTMOSTFU. (That's for Wall Street and the politicians, not you.)

An important thing to remember about hardball: if yer forced into the game, pitch!


17 Oct 11 - 01:26 AM (#3240045)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

OOPS. I meant to write 60 million, not 60%. Old age, exuberance and beer. Please pardon me.


17 Oct 11 - 11:32 AM (#3240265)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox

Marx said that Capitalism would inevitably fail and that the proletariat would eventually communicate, coordinate, organize and refuse to put up gross inequality and exploitation any more.

Here we have a situation where the proletariat are doing just that.

The target is capital and its relationship with the ruling classes.


The target is Neo-liberal politics


and Ake says they should go and read a book.


Apart from being laughably ignorant, this is about as reactionary as you can be without trying to shut them up.


This is the same Ake who moans about freedom of speech and purports t be a critic of neo-liberalism.


I'd gladly give yhim a job talking into a balloon to stop it sinking!!


17 Oct 11 - 11:39 AM (#3240268)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge

I `ad one of them protesters in my cab last night. `e`ad `is guitar and Woody Guthrie song book and `e was going up to join a group in the City called "Folk Against Freemarkets"
I said, " `oo you got it in for, then?"
`e said, "All of `em, Jim. Barclays, M&$, BP, Tesco, Vodaphone, Nat.West. That lot for starters."
I said, You gotta credit card?"
`e said, "Yeah, but......"
I said, "That`s a nice pair of jeans you got on."
`e said, "Oh, I know that but......."
I said, "You drive a car?"
`e said, "Oh yeah but they all do that."
I said, "You gotta reward card and a mobile phone?."
`e said, "Oh, I know that but....."
I said, "Seems to me you need them more than they need you!!"

Whaddam I Like??


17 Oct 11 - 01:33 PM (#3240317)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox

There is nothing in these protests that criticizes enterprise or market economics.

There is no such thing as a completely free market, or you would see legal drugs and child porn etc.

So we accept that a market can't be totally free.

But thats just a distraction anyway.

Labour is not an infinite resource and it would seem that in this market, the monetary value of labour has been set too low, with the result that the labour force is becomng coordinated.

This is about renegotiating the terms between those who own the means of production and the people upon whom they rely for the success of their industries.

The recent crisis and the way the governments of the world and the IMF have gone about dealing with it has highlighted the obscene inequalities that exist in the world and the corruption and nepotism that exist between capitalists and government.


It has also highlighted the effectiveness of social media as a political tool.


I believe Marxs predictions are beginning to come true. Not in any cliched sense, nor in the way that the worlds "communist" dictators have tried to contrive, but in the inevitable way that simply must occur when so few so greedily insist on possessing so much.


17 Oct 11 - 01:51 PM (#3240324)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

As for OWS being "useless"???

What a crock of weasel shit...

Reality is that there 2 options for oppressed people: accept it or fight it... No middle ground... No third option...

OWS is fighting it... It's that simple...

And guess what??? As we demonstrate we are seeing hotel workers, restaurant workers, laborers, and people everywhere waving and cheering in support... OWS is laying out some very basic demands for justice and equality...

My generation got the ball down the field fairly well with the civil rights movement (also not "useless") and this generation has picked up the ball and going to get it a little further down the field... It is a struggle but it's time for the fight... The working class has not seen any increase in their wages (after inflation) for over 30 years and there has been a massive redistribution of wealth to the upper 5% (most to the upper 1%)... So it's time for some adjustments...

Time to change the conversation... Time to get our message out... It's time... It's time...

B~


17 Oct 11 - 06:07 PM (#3240477)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

People who do complain about OWS--like the taxi guy who's neither all that funny nor all that informed--can complain all they want. It ain't about them, it's about the 99%. We've been fucked over for years, and it's now time to return the favour.


17 Oct 11 - 07:04 PM (#3240500)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus

Back when I was in college, I attended a lot of football rallies. Much enthusiasm, but I never recall one affecting the game's outcome.


17 Oct 11 - 07:22 PM (#3240510)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Lousy analogy, dick...

My generation took to the streets to get the Civil Rights Act as law...

The Civil Rights Act ain't a stupid football game...

Your answer is disrespectful to everyone who fought for civil rights...

B~


17 Oct 11 - 08:24 PM (#3240536)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

One solid "through-line" that some politicians get, and that they all need to get if they want to stay in politics is that, even though they—and Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, and that collection of weasels—denigrate the OWS protesters and the hundreds of mirror groups all over the country, such as "Occupy Seattle," as misguided or hooligans or worse, is that they are all—

Voters.

Don Firth


17 Oct 11 - 08:47 PM (#3240544)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus

Bobert- It may be a lousy analogy, but it's yours.

"My generation got the ball down the field fairly well with the civil rights movement (also not "useless") and this generation has picked up the ball and going to get it a little further down the field... "

The success of the Civil Rights Movement was a political accomplishment of Lyndon Johnson.

The anger and enthusiasm of the movement can produce some really meaningful changes if it's directed towards producing some political muscle.


17 Oct 11 - 09:02 PM (#3240551)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

No, dick... You have it wrong... "Anger and enthusiasm" is what brought about the Civil Rights Act...l

Not exactly a football game...

Lyndon Johnson wasn't going to get the Civil Rights Act passed without the hundreds of thousands of people who did what they could do to create an environment for that to happen...

That's the way it was...

If you don't get people thinking about stuff then when you try to make a change it will be rejected...

OWS is doing ***exactly*** what the civil rights people were doing in the early 60s....

Give them (us) a break... This ain't a friggin' pep rally...

B~


17 Oct 11 - 10:05 PM (#3240580)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: ollaimh

they have regulated capitalism in sweden and most of scandanavia. it works fine. they are affected by the ills in the rest of the world but they are not as affected as some countries. in canada we had a moderately regulated capitalism, under the liberals. surprise, we had no bank failures and ran budget surplusses for eleven years straight.

we had growth we just din't let the ponzi scheme capitalist steal all the money!

they were very creative about it but the fact reamins that between 1990 and 2008 they manufactured securities out of thin air that didn't exist before that time and those securities quardrupled the securities traded in new york. you have admire their ambition but the same way you admire the ambition of people like napoleon or hitler.

real growth depends on real production. the growth of the nineties to the crash was paper growth, taking advantage of americas premier position in the worlds capital markets but exporting millions of real jobs and allowing the collapse of infrastructure. now you have agutted economy that is either going to take years to recover --if at all--or will need massive infrastructure and educastional investment. the latter seems oposed by most american politicians, however it is likely the only road to real growth.

so go protestors go--and get a uniting theme,

like

BRING THE JOBS HOME


17 Oct 11 - 10:24 PM (#3240585)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Songwronger

Yes, exactly, a uniting theme. In the U.S. it would be good to pursue two points. 1) Tax Wall Street's financial transactions. They're currently not taxed. Levy a 1% tax on financial transactions. 2) Bring back the Glass-Steagall Act, which separated commercial and investment banking. The derivatives problem exploded when this act was repealed in 1996.

The OWS protests have no focus. No goals. And because of that they are easily manipulated.

Look up the names Vlad Teichberg and Peter Gelderloos. They're "anarchists" who specialize in guiding demonstrations. They're currently up to their eyes in the OWS stuff. Anarchy. When something positive could be achieved.


17 Oct 11 - 10:39 PM (#3240589)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

Who are the Democrats running for president in the next election, anyone know?


17 Oct 11 - 11:28 PM (#3240595)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk

We'll have to find someone who "knows everything" and get him to answer that one.

Any volunteers?


18 Oct 11 - 12:54 AM (#3240607)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

Interesting, Songwronger. I did a little Googling on the names you mentioned. Vlad Teichberg and Peter Gelderloos. Yes, they are avowed "anarchists," but the only really negative information I've been able to find about them comes from

Steady, now…..

Fox News Service!

Vlad Teichberg's main concern seem to be that the news media in general was simply ignoring the demonstrations, and he set about filming them and trying to publicizing them. Somehow, I see nothing wrong with that. Quite the contrary.

And some of the ideas of Peter Gelderloos, who is opposed to non-violent resistance (and has written a book on the subject), seems to have some pretty draconian ideas, but he won't find many in the OWS movement who will agree with him on that point. Not much influence there!

Leading the Occupy Wall Street protest? Financing them?

Again, these allegations come from Fox News!

Quelle surprise!!

The OWS protests have focus and their goals are quite specific, as a matter of fact. And these folks are not easily manipulated. Quite the contrary, in fact.

If Teichberg and Gelderloos are involved with OWS in any way, other than Teichberg's trying to call attention to it and Gelderloos's apparent contention that the demonstraters should indulge in violence, it appears that they are running like hell, trying to get in front of the movement, so they can look like they're leading it. As in:

"I have to see which way the people are going so I can get out in front and be their leader!"

You really need to get out more, Songwronger. Go to one of the protest gatherings and talk to some of the people involved. Find out for yourself rather that taking the word of Fox News or a bunch of Right Wing blogs.

Don Firth


18 Oct 11 - 04:52 AM (#3240647)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox

"The OWS protests have no focus. No goals. And because of that they are easily manipulated."

Not true.

This is a mainstream media lie.

If you look up the general assembly or the "occupy" websites, you will see that there is a very clear and concise set of demands that people are happy to rally behind.

Folks - these events have been happening all over the world - not just in lots of American cities, but all over the UK and europe, South America and even as far away as china.

As for the football analogy - dick has misapplied boberts analogy, as boberts analogy is based on the idea of the players of one team being succesful against the players of the other. Dick is talking about spectators.

The OWS demonstrators are not spectators. they, and we are all players.

Working people are saying - if you want us to participate, you must renegotiate the deal.

It is very clear and simple.


18 Oct 11 - 09:27 AM (#3240747)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

What Don and Lox have said... Helen Keller can clearly see the goals of this movement from her grave...

What OWS is avoiding, and for very good reason, is becoming policy wonks and writing 200 pages policy "white papers" dealing with every last detail... That's not what this is about and would be counter-productive because then the right wing would employ an army of stat-men and bloggers to redefine the movement by starting hundreds of mini-wars over minute details... This is what they do when they know they are on the wrong side of issues... This is exactly what Teribus did here at Mudcat during the mad-dash-to-Iraq days...

We're not going to be suckered into that trap... Tax the rich works just fine... End the wars works fine... Re-regulate Wall Street works fine...

And, yes, this is BIG "corporate" MEDIA mischief... We've seen it before... There is no "liberal media"... That is just right wing mythology that is based on them wanting 100% control of the conversation... Just like now, they are peddling propaganda with this "OWS doesn't have goals" BS... That is propaganda... USDA Choice propaganda...

Hey, we've earned the right to have the conversation that we want to have and we're not going to be "fooled again"...

Our conversation!!! Our terms!!! Our time!!!

Anyone who doesn't like it is either part of the 1% or brainwashed by the 1%...

B~


18 Oct 11 - 11:07 AM (#3240780)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

Anyone who's ever heard "Chimes of Freedom" and understood it will know why the OWS people have no intention of 'choosing from the issues' they bring to the table. The manifesto makes that clear I think. They do not want to buy into typecasting, pigeonholes or a specific battlefield. And why should they?

I notice an advertisement that pops up on Mudcat about 'the nine best stocks to invest in'. The very pervasiveness of that stuff indicates a sophistication that far outranks anything the OWS movement has--but that said, fu#k 'em. There is NO advantage to be gained by saying take away the sales tax and we'll all go home like good little girls and boys. We know where the media is at and it's clear who they support: the media support their owners, NOT their customers. Those 'with' will never support those 'without' and its foolish to think they ever will.

The Bank of America is up to its a$$ in lawsuits and it's scared. I don't think Mr Moynihan is sleeping the sleep of the just.

###############################################

"The evening arrived; the boys took their places. The master, in his cook's uniform, stationed himself at the copper; his pauper assistants ranged themselves behind him; the gruel was served out; and a long grace was said over the short commons. The gruel disappeared; the boys whispered each other, and winked at Oliver; while his next neighbours nudged him. Child as he was, he was desperate with hunger, and reckless with misery. He rose from the table; and advancing to the master, basin and spoon in hand, said: somewhat alarmed at his own temerity:

"Please, sir, I want some more."

The master was a fat, healthy man; but he turned very pale. He gazed in stupefied astonishment on the small rebel for some seconds, and then clung for support to the copper. The assistants were paralysed with wonder; the boys with fear.

"What!" said the master at length, in a faint voice.

"Please, sir," replied Oliver, "I want some more."

The master aimed a blow at Oliver's head with the ladle; pinioned him in his arms; and shrieked aloud for the beadle.

The board were sitting in solemn conclave, when Mr. Bumble rushed into the room in great excitement, and addressing the gentleman in the high chair, said,

"Mr. Limbkins, I beg your pardon, sir! Oliver Twist has asked for more!"

There was a general start. Horror was depicted on every countenance.

"For (r)more!¯" said Mr. Limbkins. "Compose yourself, Bumble, and answer me distinctly. Do I understand that he asked for more, after he had eaten the supper allotted by the dietary?"

"He did, sir," replied Bumble.

"That boy will be hung," said the gentleman in the white waistcoat. "I know that boy will be hung."

Nobody controverted the prophetic gentleman's opinion. An animated discussion took place. Oliver was ordered into instant confinement; and a bill was next morning pasted on the outside of the gate, offering a reward of five pounds to anybody who would take Oliver Twist off the hands of the parish. In other words, five pounds and Oliver Twist were offered to any man or woman who wanted an apprentice to any trade, business, or calling.

"I never was more convinced of anything in my life," said the gentleman in the white waistcoat, as he knocked at the gate and read the bill next morning: "I never was more convinced of anything in my life, than I am that that boy will come to be hung."

As I purpose to show in the sequel whether the white-waistcoated gentleman was right or not, I should perhaps mar the interest of this narrative (supposing it to possess any at all), if I ventured to hint just yet, whether the life of Oliver Twist had this violent termination or no."

Dickens (with a Twist)

##############################################

Forty-six percent of Congress are millionaires. Sixty million people live below the poverty line, whatever THAT is. Washington itself seems to dare not mention issues of substance lest it arouse the rabble. Well, the rabble is aroused, it's angry and it's tougher than anyone thought.

Decision theory, general equilibrium theory and mechanism design theory all indicate that it is stupid to play the game. But it's smart to understand the game being played by Wall Street and the folks it represents.

The minute OWS says, THIS is what we want, THIS is our goal, that is the minute the movement can be quantified and dealt with. There there be dragons. It is NOT in OWS's best interests to answer the question because that then defines the movement and provides Wall Street--the term I'm using for Congress, stock markets and multinationals--with information about where best to stick the knife.

No point doing their thinking for them. They know already. It's Wall Street that has left unanswered questions, not OWS. It continues to go about its business, and we will continue to go about ours, thank you very much.

IMO


18 Oct 11 - 11:49 AM (#3240792)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus

Anyone who believes that any financial institution will change its policies simply because there a large and loud protest is a prime candidate for buying waterfront property in Arizona. As I recall, Oliver Twist, within the system of the establishment he was living in, didn't get any more.
   OWS could be a mighty force by simply threatening to campaign against any candidate who refuse to vote for tax increases for the wealthy. Or who voted for cuts to Social Security....or, pick an issue.
Less dramatic than banjos and bongos, but much more effective.


18 Oct 11 - 11:50 AM (#3240794)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox

Well Peace,

I think that may be your best written and best illustrated mudcat post to date.

And I agree with every word.

And it should of course be remembered that Dickens wasn't writing some mere piece of fantasy, but referring explicitly to the reality of life for those on the bottom in society when they are not protected from the ravages of the richest in society.

If there were no social welfare in the UK, that is how things would still be today.

Time for society to evolve further!


18 Oct 11 - 11:56 AM (#3240798)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox

Oliver twist didn't get any more, but thanks to the writing of Dickens, and the organization of the labour movement, there are no more workhouses.

That change wouldn't have happened if people hadn't spoken out.

In fact, that change ha[pened precisely because people organized and spoke out.

So Dick, you are simply wrong.


18 Oct 11 - 12:57 PM (#3240830)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus

Just what sort of change do you envision?
I am an enthusiastic supporter of people organizing and speaking out; it's just that I think it's useful to know to whom you're doing the speaking.


18 Oct 11 - 01:30 PM (#3240844)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

Thank you, Lox.

The following is a snip from a Reuters article on the web:

'Like many other protest movements this year, they [OWS, UK] appear almost completely leaderless, initially co-ordinated via social media platforms, inspired by events overseas and now making decisions through long, consensus-based meetings on issues from sanitation to their wider agenda.

With their generally peaceful approach and hope of finding an ill-defined "better way" to manage international capital and politics, the largely educated crowd appeared in stark contrast to the tough, angry urban youth who brought chaos and looting to London and other cities in August riots.'

Dick, many of the people there are educated. Some have high school, some college and others bachelor's, master's and even doctorate degrees from good learning institutions. They would get the 'joke' (read put down) about beachfront in Arizona. Thing is, that seems to be what Wall Street's been selling for decades, and they have at last been found out by John and Jane Doe.

The law suits filed against the Bank of America may cast more light on the whole sordid situation, but folks are wise enough to see that the court decisions, appeals and further decisions will take years, about the same number of years it took to bring the present 'crisis' to prominence--a fifteen trillion dollar crisis started when Reagan came to power and a crisis deepened by every chief executive since then.

The biggest enemy Wall Street has is common people and their new-found ability to speak WITH each other. Don't need the help of the power elite to interpret what folks are saying so they can let us all know what we think. As individuals we already know what we think. As a non-cohesive group (the rabble) we have a freedom of movement unlike never before.

The only way to "beat the house" (or House in this case) is not to play the game. The only way to win the war is not show up for any battles. We are the backdrop against which the media, Congress, Wall Street and multinationals will be shown to continue their games, and the longer that happens more people will see and understand and the more people will see and understand.

Some martial arts, for example, require that the opposition give the first strike, and in real life I have seen attackers fall over themselves trying to strike something that just wasn't there any longer. We are at our best being 'there' without being there. Hard to grasp, and THAT'S the point.


18 Oct 11 - 02:16 PM (#3240876)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk

999, I think you have grasped the vital point that has been eluding most people for a very long time. Well said all the way.


18 Oct 11 - 02:48 PM (#3240894)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

I learned part of that from you, LH. Takes a while, but some stuff actually sunk in.


18 Oct 11 - 03:00 PM (#3240903)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton

Yes I must say Bruce, that modern communications technology designed to turn a profit for Capitalism, has proved to be something of a "Trojan Horse".....rapid communications and the transfer of information is now a valuable weapon against the system.

The problem is and always was, how do we convince those with something to lose .....and that is a huge majority in our respective countries.....to ditch it?


18 Oct 11 - 03:06 PM (#3240906)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

If Oliver, who walked up to the master with his bowl in his hands and said, "Please, sir, I want some more," in a deep, resonant voice coming from a lad with the size and general musculature of Conan the Barbarian……..methinks they would have given him more!

OWS wants are straightforward and obvious. Make the wealthy, super-wealthy, and corporations pay their fair share of taxes, put a stop to these endless and pointless wars, and restore the regulations on Wall Street, the banks, and other financial institutions—plus, make the Wall Street Ponzi schemes illegal.

Clear. To the point. Non-negotiable.

And where are all those Conan the Barbarian-size muscles? That should be obvious as well:

The vast majority of the Wall Street Occupiers are voters. And that, obviously, includes the power to withhold one's vote from particular politicians as well.

Seems pretty simple to me. Maybe even simple enough for our elected officials to grasp.

Don Firth


18 Oct 11 - 03:55 PM (#3240928)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

Ake, I am on my way out the door. I'll be back in an hour and try my best to explain.


18 Oct 11 - 03:55 PM (#3240929)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk

Possibly. How do you shake the politicians (meaning the candidates) loose from the pursestrings that control most of them? Until you have shaken a majority of them loose from that form of influence, your vote means little or nothing...given that the choices you've been given to vote FOR have usually all been bought out already. If you have no candidate available who WILL honestly represent you once elected...who do you vote for?

And how can your vote then effect real change?

The candidate in the last election whom I felt DID represent honesty and real change was Dennis Kucinich. He was not the candidate which the Democratic Party selected to run, needless to say. People like him do not GET selected by either of the major parties...nor do they get sufficient friendly coverage from the corporate media to have a hope in hell of BEING selected.

You know...the mass media can get someone elected nowadays. They do it by giving that person the right kind of media coverage. It can be orchestrated very effectively, and it is, in my opinion.

Since the mass media are owned by a few very rich people, don't you think those people will support a candidate who looks after their interests? In fact...they'll support only a candidate who looks after their interests...make that 2 candidates who will look after their interests....and they'll back whoever's outer style seems most marketable at the time. In 2008 that was Mr Obama. It was "time to dump the Republicans", and that was done very handily. But so what? In 2012 it may be somebody else, not Mr Obama, but it's just a big phony game as far as I'm concerned...because if Candidate A and Candidate B both end up serving the elite once elected, what the hell difference does it make which one the non-elite (we the 99 %) vote for?

Yeah, there may be a "lesser of two evils"... But I think we deserve a lot better than that. We need genuine transformation of this society, not more dissimulation and new "faces" pasted over the old system.


18 Oct 11 - 04:49 PM (#3240952)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus

I was around (and active) back in 1947 where a massive protest wound up producing some good songs, the Progressive Party and not much else.
Yes Don, the muscles come from voters. But a third party has historically been a disaster, serving only the party that the protesters like least, whether it be headed by a Ralph Nader or a Ross Perot. What does work is having a voting bloc effectively co-opt one of the existing parties, as The Tea Partisans have done with the GOP.


18 Oct 11 - 05:21 PM (#3240964)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

The best way to deal with a bully is to stand up to him... That is what OWS is doing and every day that goes by there are more folks joining in to stand up to the bully... What all this does is counters some of the right winged propagandists and presents a different narrative... The right wing has controlled the conversation for 30 years... That's what OWS is all about...

Changing the conversation!!!

B~


18 Oct 11 - 06:11 PM (#3240983)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton

One minute ago, I saw M moore on BBC tv, when asked what he wanted from OWS, he replied that he wanted a completely new system...."the end of Capitalism.....an evil system"

Even if that is what the movement wants.....and its what I want! We still have to convince millions of ordinary people who are not politically motivated, to give up the crumbs they have gleaned from under the rich mans table; and the madness of "liberal" ideology.


18 Oct 11 - 06:44 PM (#3240992)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox

Well the good news is that the bug is so infectious that it is even causing traditional mudcat enemies to agree with each other.

Dick, this has nothing to do with party politics, whether you mean traditional parties or some 'new' alternative.

This is all about "democracy" ie - government by the people.

And most people don't trust party politics.

Most people don't trust politicians.

And most people definitely don't trust the 1% of capitalists who own the politicians.

Whats different?

The people are making0 their own media and propaganda - we aren't as manipulable when social media is taking over from corporate media.

We are able to organize quickly and effectively.

Look at 38 degrees - look at Avaaz ... but most of all, look how fast the riots spread in England earlier this year .... and how easy it was to run rings around the police.

A serious sustained political movement, whether it be a strike or other peaceful non-cooperation would be 1000 times as effective.

The grapevine has gone digital.


We want democracy back, we want to be paid properly and we want basic human rights like proper health care and housing.

We've seen the courage of protesters in Egypt and Syria and we are becoming emboldened and more politicized.

We aren't so easy to pacify and hypnotize as our focus is not on TV, be it "news" or be it shit propaganda masquerading as rubbish ads and sit coms.

Gil scott heron was right - the revolution will not be televised ...

... it might be on facebook and twitter though!

(and a little corner might even be on mudcat)


18 Oct 11 - 07:16 PM (#3241003)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk

I agree, it has nothing to do with traditional party politics. Party politics is what has people presently hypnotized and enslaved to the status quo...and pitted against one another! Forming a 3rd party in the USA would be an exercise in futility. We don't need more political parties, and we don't need the existing political parties either. They are part of the problem. We need independent, nonpartisan social action on a massive scale....unconnected to party politics of any kind whatsoever.

That's what overturned the Mubarak government in Egypt...independent social action by millions of people. That's the only way. Political parties will not shake down or significantly alter the present power structure, because they are an essential part of it.


18 Oct 11 - 07:24 PM (#3241007)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox

Although it should also be noted that in Egypt the protests had been going on unreported for a couple of years and that trade unions played a very large part in keeping things coordinated.

Here trade unions are run by the pigs who took over the farm house and their leaders have grown fat. This is because they need to keep the goverment and big business happy or risk being closed down and having their funding interrupted. And there are some good salaries in Unions here ...

... so sisters are having to do it for themselves as it were ...

... but thats liberation for you!



Also, it is unpleasant to report that even in the last few days, protesters in egypt were crushed by the army att night in Tahrir Square, where the lights were turned off, the tanks were driven in and people were shot ...

... we're all fighting the same enemy ... people in Bahrain, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, USA, UK, HK, ... and wall street is the symbol of their power.


18 Oct 11 - 10:04 PM (#3241062)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

Tess Vigeland is the host of "Marketplace Money" on American Public Media. I heard this on my local NPR affiliate this afternoon. Josh Brown states, briefly and to the point, just what the OWS protesters are all about.

If I were to merely post a link to the audio or printed versions of the interview, it would be gone within a few days, so I'm posting the printed version here for your enlightenment and edification.
Tess Vigeland: Inequity is arguably the main rallying cry of the Occupy movement. And on that score, the primary bogeymen are the nation's bankers, brokers and traders -- the so-called "one-percenters" who control about a third of the country's wealth.

Commentator Josh Brown is one of those one-percenters. He's an investment adviser at Fusion Analytics in Manhattan. If you think you know what his take on all this is going to be, here's his open letter to the banks that don't seem to get why people are mad.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Josh Brown: In 2008, the American people were told that if they didn't bail out the banks, there way of life would never be the same. In no uncertain terms, our leaders told us anything short of saving these insolvent banks would result in a depression to the American public. We had to do it!

At our darkest hour we gave these banks every single thing they asked for. We allowed investment banks to borrow money at zero percent interest rate, directly from the Fed. We gave them taxpayer cash right onto their balance sheets. We allowed them to suspend account rules and pretend that the toxic sludge they were carrying was worth 100 cents on the dollar. Anything to stave off insolvency. We left thousands of executives in place at these firms. Nobody went to jail, not a single perp walk. I can't even think of a single example of someone being fired. People resigned with full benefits and pensions, as though it were a job well done.

The American taxpayer kicked in over a trillion dollars to help make all of this happen. But the banks didn't hold up their end of the bargain. The banks didn't seize this opportunity, this second chance to re-enter society as a constructive agent of commerce. Instead, they went back to business as usual. With $20 billion in bonuses paid during 2009. Another $20 billion in bonuses paid in 2010. And they did this with the profits they earned from zero percent interest rates that actually acted as a tax on the rest of the economy.

Instead of coming back and working with this economy to get back on its feet, they hired lobbyists by the dozen to fight tooth and nail against any efforts whatsoever to bring common sense regulation to the financial industry. Instead of coming back and working with the people, they hired an army of robosigners to process millions of foreclosures. In many cases, without even having the proper paperwork to evict the homeowners. Instead, the banks announced layoffs in the tens of thousands, so that executives at the top of the pile could maintain their outrageous levels of compensation.

We bailed out Wall Street to avoid Depression, but three years later, millions of Americans are in a living hell. This is why they're enraged, this why they're assembling, this is why they hate you. Why for the first time in 50 years, the people are coming out in the streets and they're saying, "Enough."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Vigeland: Josh Brown. He wrote a scathing blog post along these same lines earlier this week. You can also follow him on Twitter @reformedbroker.
If anyone was confused or in doubt about what it's all about, there it is!

Don Firth


18 Oct 11 - 10:50 PM (#3241072)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

Ake, hello.

Was thinking about how far you and I go back and the fact we've been on opposite sides of issues frequently and still never let that interfere with a good friendship. This is no different. Not one of us here need convince anyone else of anything.

The greatest fear rampant in the world today is that expressed by the money people: WHAT do they want?

They are afraid they may lose their positions of wealth, and they will if currency devalues. So, what choice do they have except to find ways to ensure that doesn't happen!

###############################################

Maggie's Farm written by Bob Dylan

I ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm no more
No, I ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm no more
Well, I wake in the morning
Fold my hands and pray for rain
I got a head full of ideas
That are drivin' me insane
It's a shame the way she makes me scrub the floor
I ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm no more

I ain't gonna work for Maggie's brother no more
No, I ain't gonna work for Maggie's brother no more
Well, he hands you a nickel
He hands you a dime
He asks you with a grin
If you're havin' a good time
Then he fines you every time you slam the door
I ain't gonna work for Maggie's brother no more

I ain't gonna work for Maggie's pa no more
No, I ain't gonna work for Maggie's pa no more
Well, he puts his cigar
Out in your face just for kicks
His bedroom window
It is made out of bricks
The National Guard stands around his door
Ah, I ain't gonna work for Maggie's pa no more

I ain't gonna work for Maggie's ma no more
No, I ain't gonna work for Maggie's ma no more
Well, she talks to all the servants
About man and God and law
Everybody says
She's the brains behind pa
She's sixty-eight, but she says she's twenty-four
I ain't gonna work for Maggie's ma no more

I ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm no more
No, I ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm no more
Well, I try my best
To be just like I am
But everybody wants you
To be just like them
They sing while you slave and I just get bored
I ain't gonna work on Maggie's farm no more

Copyright © 1965 by Warner Bros. Inc.; renewed 1993 by Special Rider Music

#########################################

Ake, they need us more than we need them. Truthfully, what's the difference between competing with each other for wages set by Wall Street and not competing with each other for the wages they set? We can all get good 'wages' by cooperating with each other and completely ignoring Wall Street. Let those a$$holes come to us with their caps in their damned hands--just for a change. This ain't for us, anyway. We'll be dead before any changes of substance are made to banking systems or ways of doing business. But our kids won't, nor their kids. Gradually, as we speak WITH each other, we shall find consensus. Wrong or right, it will be better than what we have now. Workers let go weeks before they have pensions; houses stolen by banks; cheap watches as parting gifts while the money people get five million dollar handshakes for fu#king up their businesses, and fu#king up our money earned by our labour.

I don't know exactly where this road leads, but I do know where the other one goes to, and it ain't good. Slavery, destitution, extreme poverty.

I have no answers that would convince anyone of anything. But then it's not my responsibility to have answers for questions designed to make people argue with each other. The fact we talk scares them. And for now, that's good enough. Let the money people be scared for a change. Let the arrogant scum walk a few miles in the shoes we've worn all our lives. Then, we may be able to treat as equals. Not before.


18 Oct 11 - 11:30 PM (#3241084)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Songwronger

http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=A0oG7n6RPZ5OxyQASbdXNyoA?p=obama%20silicon%20dinner%20picture&fr2=piv
<


Pics of Obama celebrating with Silicon Valley bigwigs after Mubarak was ousted. Obama thought his CIA had a new method of installing thuggish military regimes without bloodshed, but then came Libya.

OWS was begun by a Marxist magazine and now it's being guided by right-wing anarchists who direct participants to expend their energy in non-productive ways.

And that NPR piece. They under reported the cost of the financial fiasco by TRILLIONS. They're part of the problem, same as the conservative outlets. Keep the public in the dark while pretending to shed light.

OWS makes me think of Howard Beale saying, "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!" That's all well and good, but where's the plan? Watching people moan about "the 1%" doesn't accomplish anything.

The cold will soon cut back on the protests, but then the main attraction will come next year, when the economy REALLY tanks. People will go out for their comfortable little protests, and the anarchists will provocateur. I mean, hey, if you want anarchy, you're going to get it. For a while.

Either get a clear cut program FAST, or have one foisted on you by the demonic government you're threatening.


19 Oct 11 - 03:39 AM (#3241125)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox

Songwronger - if enough people refuse to participate, those at the top will have to redraw the social contract.

Call it blackmail if you like, but its no worse than saying "accept my cock up your ass or I'll go and give it to someone in Mexico"

Social global media is allowing more and more people too communiicate worldwide and government attempts to control the net are failing at every step.

You CAN watch BBC in the USA - you CAN get facebook in china ...

... its easy and everyone knows how to do it in places where there are restrictions.


the message will be simple ... "we're not playing till the rules are changed" ...

... big money is only powerful when it can buy people.

When people demand a higher price together, things will change.


19 Oct 11 - 07:38 AM (#3241213)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce

"22% approve of the Occupy movement."

http://www.gallup.com/poll/150164/Americans-Uncertain-Occupy-Wall-Street-Goals.aspx


"The poll sought to contrast support for Occupy Wall Street with another prominent American movement, the Tea Party. In the poll, 22% describe themselves as Tea Party movement supporters, 27% as opponents, and 47% as neither. Gallup has typically found that about equal percentages of Americans are Tea Party supporters or opponents, with the greatest percentage neutral. Thus, the current level of public support for Occupy Wall Street is similar to that for the Tea Party movement.


19 Oct 11 - 08:09 AM (#3241225)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: bobad

Fox News Poll Backfires: 70 Percent Support Occupy Wall Street | Fox News is running a poll on their website asking readers if the 99 Percent movement represents their views on the economy. In a move that likely surprised the network — which has consistently belittled, smeared, distorted, and otherwise dismissed the protests — the vast majority of respondents, many of whom are likely Fox viewers, said they agree with the movement:

http://thinkprogress.org/special/2011/10/12/342314/fox-news-poll-backfires-70-percent-support-occupy-wall-street/



The media demands one headline per protest: Whaddya mean there's no clear cut program


19 Oct 11 - 09:08 AM (#3241267)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce

Bobert,

Care to comment on these two reports, in light of YOUR comments about FOX Viewers???




"Fox News is running a poll on their website asking readers if the 99 Percent movement represents their views on the economy. In a move that likely surprised the network — which has consistently belittled, smeared, distorted, and otherwise dismissed the protests — the vast majority of respondents, many of whom are likely Fox viewers, said they agree with the movement:




"22% approve of the Occupy movement."

http://www.gallup.com/poll/150164/Americans-Uncertain-Occupy-Wall-Street-Goals.aspx




70% of FOX respondents ( IE, those who choose to reply to FOX polls) support , while Gallup says 22% of non-selected (IE, everyone) support the Occupy protests.


19 Oct 11 - 09:14 AM (#3241269)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

First of all any one who thinks that OWS is being directed by the right wing is deep in Coolaid-ville... But that entire line of offense/defence is nothing but a right winged talking point... The right hates OWS because it is exposing their weaknesses, which are many...

So the right wing will continue with pushing their PR propaganda...

And the polls I am hearing do not resemble the one that bb posted... Even the right winged BIG MEDIA NBC had the approval rating of 47%???

That's why polls are so unreliable... They are easily rigged.... Just as elections are rigged...

B~


19 Oct 11 - 09:25 AM (#3241278)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce

Bobert,

Let me see.

Gallup says 22% of the public in general.
NBC says 47% of the public in general.
FOX says 70% of ITS VIEWERS that responded to the survey support.

AND YOU SAY
" The right hates OWS because it is exposing their weaknesses, which are many..."

AND claim that FOX viewers are right wing.



and YOU criticise the Tea Party????????????????????

THEY are more in support of Occupy than the left-leaning NBC, or the neutral Gallup says that the general public is.

Please send up some of what you are smoking- I need an alternate reality like that!!!


19 Oct 11 - 10:05 AM (#3241295)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.

Well, Beardie, with the track record that Faux News (owned, directed & scripted by that paragon of virtue & probity Rupert Murdoch)has established for outright lies, distortions and fantasy, how anyone with pretensions to intelligence would believe them is beyond me.

But you're free to believe what you wish...


19 Oct 11 - 10:18 AM (#3241303)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce

Well, gregie boy,

"anyone with pretensions to intelligence would believe them is beyond me."

You mean that the fact that 70% of the respondents SUPPORT the Occupy movements goals indicates how stupid they are??

What does that say about you???


19 Oct 11 - 10:33 AM (#3241310)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

The polls do NOT matter. OWS started without benefit of polls, continued without benefit of polls and will continue without benefit of polls, thank you very much.

Polls are tools used to manipulate public opinion. If, as so many claim, no one KNOWS what OWS wants, how can the pollsters even begin to understand which questions to ask?

#######################################

Poll designed by an architecture student:

Do you like the building structures in the Wall Street area.

YES         72%
NO          23%
DON'T KNOW   5%


Story in the news:

A recent poll conducted by students at Justask University has concluded that 72% of the people who responded like Wall Street. This bodes poorly for Occupy Wall Street protesters.

#########################################

Meanwhile, back on the street . . .


19 Oct 11 - 11:15 AM (#3241339)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce

Bruce,

Did you even bother to look at the poll before you commented. they tell you the question- so don't tell us

"If, as so many claim, no one KNOWS what OWS wants, how can the pollsters even begin to understand which questions to ask? "

IF that is so, I would claim that since NO ON knows what OWS wants, then NO ONE can be in support of it.

In fact, the question was asked
"Do you approve or disapprove of the goals of the Occupy Wall Street movement, or don't you know enough to say?"

IF you bothered to look you would have seen that- the result was that 22% OF THOSE ASKED THOUGHT THEY KNEW the goals, and approved of them.

As long as people here throw around that 99% number, I think it resaonable to use numbers- unless you are insisting that ONLY YOU are allowed to do so, and the rest of us have to follow a different set of rules. MY understanding is that that is one thing the OWS movement is AGAINST. Yet some here want it to be used to prevent discussion.


19 Oct 11 - 11:33 AM (#3241353)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

The logic doesn't work, BB. It went out the window when banks were bailed out with tax payer money; when CEOs who'd screwed their corporations were given millions to retire with; when a succession of governments ripped off and created the poor; when 46% of your congress became millionaires; when 60 million people sank below the poverty line.

Sorry, buddy, but there ain't too many folks for you to convince. Tell me the above ain't true. Go ahead.

But it is true, and there's little left of the American Dream for the 99%. NO MORE.

I do not care what 2000 polled people think, chosen because they represent the average person. There are NO MORE average people. Fu#k the polls. They are tools to manipulate. NO MORE and no less.


19 Oct 11 - 11:53 AM (#3241363)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton

Actually, on the subject of percentages, i think we are concentrating on the wrong demographics.

The really important percentage is the one which reflects the number of people who feel they still have a stake in the system.
I'm talking about property owners, pensioners, public employees, university graduates, those of us with a few measly grand in the bank, etc etc.....at a rough guess,80%.

Against that, those with nothing to lose at all and those with something to lose, but who dont give a flying fuck whether they lose it or not,......like me, a lifelong Communist, politically motivated against Capitalism.......20%???

Now my days as a gambler tell me that these percentages are piss poor, and we will be marginalised. If we continue we will be liquidated.

This is not the way to go, by all means get rid of the system but do it from inside, We must be united with the majority...who are conservative, so that means a change of direction from the left.

A tactical retreat......we fucked up big time in not recognising the value of Mrs Palin and the Tea Party....and its anti politics stance.

Never expect to change this system in a month or a year, think about a couple of generations.


19 Oct 11 - 11:56 AM (#3241364)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce

Bruce,

You are letting your anger interfere with even reading posts.

I put up a post that Gallup says of all polled, 22% support what they think are the OWS goals.
THAT poll says that 63% don't know enough to say.

Bobad posted that, contrary to expectations, the FOX poll shows 70% of respondants saying they support the goals of the OWS. I then invited comment by Bobert, since he claims that FOX viewers/listeners are all bigoted, racist, ignorant yahoos. ( who support OWS, it seems)

I am then attacked by greggie, and you seem to think that I have made some comment ABOUT THE GOALS of the OWS Movement- WHICH I HAVE NOT!!!!

Stop telling me I am wrong when for all you know I AGREE WITH YOU!!!

THAT is a certain way to make sure nothing gets done.


19 Oct 11 - 12:08 PM (#3241369)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce

btw, isn't



http://www.klfy.com/story/15717759/second-hand-dealer-law


the sort of thing that puts more control in the banks? I THINK that the 99% would think it a bad idea.


19 Oct 11 - 01:15 PM (#3241395)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce

"You asked earlier about "Occupy Wall Street" and what I've said is that I understand the frustrations that are being expressed in those protests. In some ways, they're not that different from some of the protests that we saw coming from the Tea Party, both on the left and the right. I think people feel separated from their government, that the institutions aren't looking out for them "


http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/transcript-abc-news-jake-tappers-exclusive-interview-president/story?id=14764446&singlePage=true


19 Oct 11 - 02:01 PM (#3241423)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

beardedbruce,

You I trust. Ake I trust. However, there is not one single source from any main-stream media publication I trust. NOT ONE!

The purpose of media is to manipulate. I do not care what they have to say. It is meaningless to me. I can read lies, obfuscations, bullsh#t, falsehoods, aspersions, untruths until the cows come home. And at the end of the day they will still be lies, obfuscations, bullsh#t, falsehoods, aspersions and/or untruths. Poor people don't own newspapers, television stations, radio stations. Rich people, governments, corporate conglomerates do. To me, it's that simple.

I'm not angry, I'm fed up. Period.


19 Oct 11 - 04:15 PM (#3241506)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk

Are you not a member now, Bruce? I tried to PM you and I couldn't find you on the list.

What I wanted to do was send you a link to this talk by David Icke about the financial meltdown, the banks, Bush and Obama, etc...it's very good, very well thought out, very clearly explained. The interviewer is on a Russian TV show (I think it's Russian...sounds like it), so his questions are in Russian, but David Icke replies in English. Since David Icke does most of the talking, this works fine for for us English-speaking viewers even if we don't comprehend the Russian language questions. So don't be put off by the brief Russian language intro at the beginning, just wait for David Icke to reply to the questions.

David Icke speaks about the world financial crisis


19 Oct 11 - 04:23 PM (#3241512)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk

When I said "Bruce", I meant 999.


19 Oct 11 - 04:38 PM (#3241522)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

I just messaged you, LH.


19 Oct 11 - 04:43 PM (#3241525)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk

Got it. Thanks!


19 Oct 11 - 05:11 PM (#3241542)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

I'm about half way through the link that LH put up... Very interesting so far...

And...


...400...

B~


19 Oct 11 - 05:33 PM (#3241556)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: pdq

Little Hawk mentions David Icke...

"...set out a moral and political worldview that combined New-Age spiritualism with a passionate denunciation of totalitarian trends in the modern world. At the heart of his theories lies the idea that the world is becoming a global fascist state, that a secret group of reptilian humanoids called the Babylonian Brotherhood controls humanity, and that many prominent figures are reptilian, including George W. Bush, Queen Elizabeth II, Kris Kristofferson, and Boxcar Willie."

Listeneng to David Icke will give you a headache.


19 Oct 11 - 05:55 PM (#3241564)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

So he's strange. He's also right about the financial 'crisis', one in a continuing line of crises brought on by crooked politicians, crooked bankers and a very crooked Wall Street.

Attack what he said about finance, or don't. Character assassination because he said what he thinks on another front has NO bearing on what he has said in this instance.


19 Oct 11 - 05:57 PM (#3241566)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

That, pdq, is one thing that we agree upon... I can a take a little of David but then he, like Lyndon LaRouche, goes into a conspiracy world that I find a tad hard to believe...

Bring back Glass-Staegall and all of this goes away, anyway...

B~


19 Oct 11 - 06:07 PM (#3241571)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox

I think the less we associate OWS with David Icke the better!!!


19 Oct 11 - 07:46 PM (#3241613)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk

I'm not suggesting you associate OWS with David Icke. I'm suggesting that you might find interest in listening to his talk about the financial crisis. It makes a lot of sense. It's what he's talking about in that video that connects to the OWS movement, because it is the essence of what the movement is protesting against. To let your personal problems with David Icke (because of some other thing he said at some time) affect your comprehension of what he's explaining in that video will not be helpful at all.

Most people are not right about everything. Most of them are right about some things, and they're mistaken about others. I think David Icke is quite correct in most of what he says in that video regarding the financial crisis, and I don't feel he has to be right about EVERYTHING else he's ever said in his whole life before I give that video my serious attention. I don't expect David Icke or anyone else in this world to have the right answer to EVERYTHING...and that leaves me free to consider this particular video on its own merits...rather than just making a kneejerk decision to accept it or reject it in its entirety merely because it's emanating from.....David Icke.

I'm willing to listen to anyone. Pay attention closely. See if it makes any sense to me. If it does make sense, I don't particularly care who said it. It's what they said that counts. What David Icke is saying in that video makes sense to me.


19 Oct 11 - 08:12 PM (#3241627)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

It only makes sense to a point, LH... Some of the OWS chapters have gone on record of demanding the restoration of Glass-Steagall... Repealing it, which BTW was something that the Repubs pushed and had Slick Willie on their meatgrinder over a blow job over, opened up this "prefect storm"... The repeal was the ultimate Reaganomics victory... It is also what brought about the near collapse of the economy on September of 2008...

Icke goes way too far here... He has the same story that my dad use to tell about these "5 Jews who run the entire world" conspiracy theory... That's where I get off, thank you... This isn't about "5 Jews"... It's about Reganomics... It's about a corrupt government... It's about the insanity of deregulation... Deregulated capitalism = disaster...

B~


19 Oct 11 - 08:14 PM (#3241628)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

Give him his due. David Icke gives the clearest and most succinct explanation of the banking system, and economics in general, that I've ever heard.

This "vapor money" and the ability to manipulate it, as he describes, is one of the reasons that, in times past, there was such a strong campaign—and a successful one, obviously—to abandon the gold standard, where having a dollar bill in your hand meant that there was a dollar's worth of gold on deposit, and you could take that dollar to a bank and get the equivalent in gold. Since there is a limited supply of gold, that meant that the supply of money was limited also. Which meant that you couldn't "create money" the way the banking system does now, because for every dollar there had to be an equivalent amount of gold somewhere and you could demand actual possession of it.

Remember silver certificates? Same deal there. Every silver certificate (fives, tens, twenties, etc) had "Redeemable on demand" printed on it. They were taken out of circulation in 1965.

Were you aware, when Reagan appointed him Fed Chairman, that Alan Greenspan was a disciple of Ayn Rand? I was. And figured, "This is ominous!" Deregulation! Complete deregulation!

But—

As far as the entire video is concerned, David Icke leads us through the door into his own private fantasy. A former English sports announcer (presenter) turned writer, public speaker, and general pot-stirrer, he has written a book entitled The Biggest Secret, which is considered by many to be "the conspiracy theorists' Rosetta Stone." Some of the things he comes up with are in the realm of really bad science fiction.

But his explanation of the credit system in the U. S. is really quite good. It's where he tries to take it…….

Of course there will be those who will get on my case for not buying Icke's whole package, but—so be it.

####

Detractors of OWS can quote polls and echo Fox News 'til hell freezes over, but the comments by Josh Brown that I quote above are right on the mark. And OWS and its mirror demonstrations (some 900 cities across the country AND in cities overseas) are starting to have a salutary effect.

Among other things, it has the Right Wing peeing its pants in sheer fright.

Seattle City Councilman Nick Licata was on the radio this morning, being interviewed by KUOW's Steve Scher. Among other things, he said that the Mayor McGinn and the City Council know where OWS and our local edition, Occupy Seattle demonstrating at Westlake Park, are coming from. They have gone to Westlake Park and actually TALKED with the people there, asked questions, and listened to what they said.

One of the results is that the City Council is now examining the banks and financial agencies that the city has been using in the management of the city's funds and checking on their practices and procedures.

"And," said Licata, "we were not entirely happy with what we find. We will be making some changes!"

He also said that he knew that Los Angeles and a number of other cities were doing the same thing.

So, said banks and other financial institutions had better clean up their act or they will be losing some BIG clients!

Now, I'd say that's fairly effective, wouldn't you?

Don Firth


19 Oct 11 - 08:23 PM (#3241632)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Looks as if we each came to the same conclusion, Don...

B~


19 Oct 11 - 08:30 PM (#3241638)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk

Well said, Don. I have no need for you to buy Icke's whole package. I don't buy his whole package. But I am delighted to hear someone explain the banker's Ponzi scheme of present day money creation that clearly.

Imagine what any of us could do if we could create money that way, with the mere tap of a computer keyboard. Why...we (and our colleagues) could end up running the world...and get fabulously rich.

And if it created a financial crisis, we could ask for a bailout. ;-) And then do it again. And again. And again.

Money is power. He who creates the money has the power. The banks have created virtually all the money that is now listed on their balance sheets, and the governments are in hock to them up to their eyeballs...and the public is paying the bill.

Banks must be stringently regulated to stop this from continuing to happen. And it would be a very good idea to put printed money back on a gold or silver standard, every dollar redeemable in a fixed amount of gold or silver upon demand. It used to be that way. It was discontinued so the bankers could run their Ponzi schemes.


19 Oct 11 - 08:42 PM (#3241642)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

BINGO, LH...


19 Oct 11 - 09:01 PM (#3241646)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

I've posted this a number of times before, but I think it might bear repeating.

One of the kinds of telephone solicitation calls that I get fairly often (makes me smirk) is someone from a financial institution telling me that "We can assist you in making your mortgage payments!"

"Well, thank you," say I, "but our mortgage was paid off about thirty years ago. We own our home outright."

I can hear the creak of his jaw dropping. Then he takes another breath and says, "Well, we are also equipped to assist you in paying off your credit card debt."

"Thanks again," I say, "but my wife and I make it a point to pay off our credit card balance every month. We don't have any credit card debt."

All of this is true, by the way. He never gets as far as car payments, but there, too, our 1999 Toyota Corona is all paid for—and it only has about 30,000 miles on it, and due to the fine work of the mechanic at a gas station and garage three blocks away, it's well maintained and runs just fine, thank you.

Here's a word that can give bankers cold chills:

Barter.

(Worked just fine for hundreds if not thousands of years.)

Don Firth


19 Oct 11 - 09:06 PM (#3241652)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

I'm in the same position, Don, and these folks just don't get it??? What, you don't want out money??? What the heck is wrong with you, man???

LOL...

B~


19 Oct 11 - 11:14 PM (#3241682)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk

Yeah, I've had similar conversations with them. I hear they call people like us "deadbeats" in the credit card industry. They consider our lack of debt to be downright unpatriotic.

Barter is a wonderful idea, Don, one that people should probably make considerably more use of. People in a community could circumvent the money system itself for many things by issuing their own "credits" through a local organization that traded goods and labour of all sorts through exchanging x amount of credits and recording it at the local credit exchange. (and some communities have done so). The government doesn't care for the idea, because they can't figure out how to tax it. Banks don't care for it either.

"What if they issued a currency and nobody showed interest?" (Same as "What if they gave a war and nobody came?") A population can only be enslaved by money if they allow themselves to be by first surrendering to it...and using it for all their transactions.


19 Oct 11 - 11:47 PM (#3241687)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Songwronger

The good thing to come out of OWS so far is that people are crediting the Democrat/Republican mindset less and less. Clinton didn't repeal Glass-Steagall because of the Republicans and a blowjob... Obama didn't offer to cut Social Security because of the Republicans and the Tea Party... Clinton and Obama are just as establishment (bank) as Reagan and Bush. Clinton signed NAFTA, gutting the U.S. unions. The Republicans didn't make him do it. Those days of false blame-casting are over. Clinton/Bush/Obama are all on the same team, just handing off the ball to one another, playing offense and defense.

OWS is showing, though, a new and more insidious mindset. The new "us vs them" standoff isn't between 50% on one side and 50% on the other anymore, it's now 99% vs 1%.

So, who are the 1%? In the French Revolution it was "the monarchy," and look at how many lost their heads there. After the monarchy was gone you were executed if you were just against "the revolution." And look at Pol Pot and his war against intellectuals. After the professors were dead he ending up killing, what...40% of his country because they were too intellectual?

So who is this 1% that the OWS 99% are going to "get?" And after they're gotten, who's in the next 1%? Because you'll never shake this mania once it gets hold of you. Before long, if you own a house, you'll be in the 1%. Off with your head. Own a car? Off with your head.

The saddest thing in the OWS movement is the Marxist talk about redistribution of wealth. There is no wealth in America. Not significant wealth. The wealthy have moved their money overseas. Any redistribution will be of middle-class money. OWS appears to be just the latest assault on the middle class.


20 Oct 11 - 12:16 AM (#3241696)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

Like I said, Songwronger. You need to get out and mingle, not sit at home and read Right-Wing blogs and listen to Fox News. It keeps you clueless.

Don Firth


20 Oct 11 - 12:34 AM (#3241698)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

"There is no wealth in America. Not significant wealth. The wealthy have moved their money overseas."

You're right about that, songwronger. They've put it all in Swiss banks and in the Cayman Islands. And this comes partly from their not paying their fair share of taxes--and from receiving multimillion dollar bonuses despite having totally screwed up. But most of the money they're shipping out of the country is bail-out money that was supposed to be used to create jobs.

THIS, as I have pointed out several times on this thread, is ONE of the things the OWS folks are angry about.

Not really that difficult to grasp.

Don Firth


20 Oct 11 - 12:51 AM (#3241699)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Songwronger

Your old system left-right system is breaking down. Perceptive people realize that Rush Limbaugh and NPR tell the same lie about the "one trillion dollar stimulus." They both quote the same figure, and that figure is a lie. Obama's stimulus gave closer to 15 trillion to the banks. Yet the "left" and "right" news outlets say it was one trillion. An agreed-upon lie. Why would they do that? Because their job is to deceive you.

Maybe you still push the left-right thing because the new reality is too horrible to comtemplate. The new 99%/1%. The 1% WANTS you to hate them because there's nothing you can do to touch them. And when people realize they can't touch Soros and Buffett, they'll want a percentage of SOMETHING, and that's when the middle class will suffer.

You say you own your house. I want it. Get the fuck out of my house.

That's how redistribution works. That's how the 1% wants us to treat one another. The old left-right crap worked for a long time and will still work for a while, but now we're getting into anarchy and mob rule. Maybe you're holding onto the old left-right thing because you realize how dangerous the new paradigm is to you, as a property-owner. Spout me some more Marxism from the comfort of your home.


20 Oct 11 - 02:00 AM (#3241707)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk

Yeah, sure the old Right/Left system is breaking down. I've been saying that for years. Its primary purpose in recent elections has been to keep the public distracted by fighting with each other over the old partisan Right/Left symbology while all the parties tacitly serve the business and banking elite once elected. The Right/Left thing is just camouflage as far as I'm concerned. They trot out Bush on one side, Obama on the other, convince you that Obama is the moral antithesis to Bush...so people rush out to vote for "change"...but it's just cosmetic change. Obama gets elected and "Surprise!"...he ends up pursuing quite similar overall policies to what Bush was pursuing, and he gets away with it easier than Bush could have...because he's not Bush. The supposed "change" he inspired the hopes of the electorate with was a good sales job, but it has not happened. I don't believe it was ever intended to happen. He put some of the key architects of the banks' ponzi scheme into high positions of power in his administration. That tells me who he's really working for...the same basic interests Bush II and Clinton and Bush I and Reagan all worked for. The party divide is there to fool people into thinking they can change what's happening by voting in "the other party"...and it works beautifully! People are fooled. Again and again. What a shameful situation it is.


20 Oct 11 - 03:50 AM (#3241720)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton

I suspect many Democrats here see this movement as merely a stick to beat conservatives with......I do not think there are many who appreciate what the required systemic change will mean in practice.

If it is not handled with more care, it could end in severe loss of life.

I notice that you are still saying that the regulation of the banking system can repair the damage done......this is "whistling in the dark"....Deregulation is a desperate measure, taken by governments of "left" and "right", to promote growth in the economy through the marketing of financial "products".

It is a desperate measure taken when a Capitalist society has nothing left to exploit.....and so begins, like a rat in a cage, to devour itself.

Without economic growth, Capitalism is doomed and I see no sign of producing that growth in the near or distant future.

Whatever the future holds, it will be neither easy, nor "liberal"

BITE THE BULLET!


20 Oct 11 - 04:18 AM (#3241726)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

"So, who are the 1%? In the French Revolution it was "the monarchy," and look at how many lost their heads there."

About 13,000.

However, that is nowhere near the number who have died as a result of policies that killed millions around the world through starvation, war and other forms of genocide. I have great difficulty feeling sorrow for people who have created 60,000,000 victims who hang onto life with no hope of a tomorrow.

Mob rule? I fail to see how people sleeping in parks is mob rule. They rule nothing, not even their own lives. The so-called 1% deserve what the get, even if it is their bloody heads handed to them.

The houses you mention being stolen: the 1% have already stolen those houses. Three million houses, and that's a low figure. I have never wept for Custer, Stalin or Pol Pot, and I will never weep for the scum who played, play and continue to play games with people's lives. Save your sorrow for those who need it but maybe at last will no longer want it.

The breakdown in social order was and is not caused by people sleeping in parks. It is caused by those who left them no place else to sleep. The breakdown in social order is not caused by people stealing bread to eat. It is caused by those who have priced bread beyond ordinary means.

I feel no empathy or sympathy for the Evita Perons of this world. Nor for the Eichmanns and Pinochets who do their biddings. Nor for the Wall Street crowd so inconvenienced by the mob in the park. Fu#k 'em. They felt no remorse when hundreds of millions died as a result of the policies and practices that allowed them to steal their money. I feel no sorrow or remorse for them now.

"Although the pharmaceutical industry claims to be a high-risk business, year after year drug companies enjoy higher profits than any other industry. In 2002, for example, the top 10 drug companies in the United States had a median profit margin of 17%, compared with only 3.1% for all the other industries on the Fortune 500 list.1 Indeed, subtracting losses from gains, those 10 companies made more in profits that year than the other 490 companies put together. Pfizer, the world's number-one drug company, had a profit margin of 26% of sales. In 2003, for the first time in over 2 decades, the pharmaceutical industry fell slightly from its number-one spot to third, but this was explained by special circumstances, including Pfizer's purchase of another drug giant, Pharmacia, which cut into its profits for the year. The industry's profits were still an extraordinary 14% of sales, well above the median of 4.6% for other industries.2 "

Don't cry for me Argentina? Unlikely. I'll probably dance in the streets.

No more!


20 Oct 11 - 08:46 AM (#3241831)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.

Before long, if you own a house, you'll be in the 1%.

I see the Horatio Alger myth is alive & well. Not to mention false class consciousness.


20 Oct 11 - 08:52 AM (#3241835)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.

Interesting view Here


20 Oct 11 - 08:55 AM (#3241840)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Don't know where you get your supposed "facts", songwronger, but they aren't facts but mythology... Glass-Steagall was on the Reaganomic practitioners hit list going way back... The Republican Congress repealed it knowing full well that with all the dirty tricks they had played on Clinton that he was not going to repeal it... That's purdy much why he went along with Welfare Reform...

As for Obama giving a $15T stimulus to the banks??? Hog wash... He did no such thing... Reality is that he came into office with a collapsing economy and the strongest opposition party since Abraham Lincoln and he has done what he could... Which ain't all that much... The actual stimulus was $300B in spending and $400 in tax cuts...

B~


20 Oct 11 - 09:15 AM (#3241850)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Oh, and just for the record, Obama was not on the architectural firm that designed Reaganomics... He was the poor guy who had and has to deal with the corrupt bastards who did and who are hell bent on keeping Reaganomics as our economic model... And he is being out PR'd because these bastards also own 100% of BIG MEDIA...

And that's why we have folks out there spreading "Obama gave $15T" propaganda...

Garbage in = garbage out...

And as for the OWS movement being controlled by the right wing??? Koch head mythology plucked from thin air...

B~


20 Oct 11 - 09:25 AM (#3241855)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox

Songwronger,

You need to listen to them - its no secret.

the OWS keeps repeating itself again and again.

The 1% who have all the wealth and power.


That is called feudalism - in this case corporate feudalism.


Democracy has always been about taking power out of the hands of the 1% and sharing it with the other 99%.


This is the same thing.


The 1% has somehow managed to get all the power back and the 99% are saying - hold on time to do a democracy reset.


It isn't about us and them, that is just taking language from other unrelated issues (nationalism, race, gender etc) and misapplying it.


This is 100% about simple straight forward democracy.


20 Oct 11 - 09:28 AM (#3241857)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Anyone who thinks that OWS is being controlled by the right wing ain't going to listen to any logic, Lox...

I mean, the guy is a tin-foiler...

B~


20 Oct 11 - 09:29 AM (#3241858)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox

PS - noone is talking about rediistribuitiing weath.

This is fiction.

They are talking about a fair wage - so you don't have to work 3 jobs and never see your kids just so you can pay off the medical bills.

They are talking about preventing corporate crime from being committed.



Don, LH and Bobert,


If you want to learn something really useful about the Banks, check out Nomi Prins. Take your tiime doing it and you won't regret it.


20 Oct 11 - 10:40 AM (#3241894)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: pdq

"...The saddest thing in the OWS movement is the Marxist talk about redistribution of wealth. There is no wealth in America. Not significant wealth. The wealthy have moved their money overseas. Any redistribution will be of middle-class money." ~ Songwronger

There is a lot of truth in that statement.

The cause of he current Depression was the huge drop in residential house values.

Why real estate market was pushed to absurd highs is really the question, not the fact that it eventually collapsed.

Residential property owners, most of whom are here in the U. S., lost about 15 billion dollars in value. They also lost their ticket to the Promised Land. The famous Middle Class, if not dead, is on life support.


20 Oct 11 - 10:45 AM (#3241900)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

"Why real estate market was pushed to absurd highs is really the question, not the fact that it eventually collapsed."

It's certainly one of the questions, pdq. There's only so many millions a fifty-thousand dollar house can be sold for. Of course if it's repossessed lotsa times, the money will roll in until it doesn't.


20 Oct 11 - 10:50 AM (#3241906)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: pdq

"...Residential property owners...lost about 15 billion dollars..." ~ me

Of course, that should be 15 trillion dollars. The figure is so staggering that my brain seems to have rejected it as unreasonable.


20 Oct 11 - 11:07 AM (#3241914)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Sawzaw

Bobert is in solidarity with the American Nazi Party:

ANP Report for October 16, 2011

Racial Comrades: I am going to address the issue of this "Occupy Wall Street" fervor that has been sweeping the land like a breath of cleansing air!

THE NATIVES ARE GETTING RESTLESS, AND ZOG FEARS IT MIGHT HAVE A POPULAR UPRISING ON ITS HANDS - finally!

This issue is TAYLOR MADE for National Socialists, as well as WN who are serious about DOING SOMETHING - MORE - than shouting "racial slurs" and acting like "poster boys of hate" loons.

After all - JUST WHO - are the WALL STREET BANKERS? The vast majority are JEWS - and the others are SPIRITUAL JEW materialists, who would sell their own mother's gold teeth for a PROFIT. And MORE and MORE people are AWARE of this truth, are not only NOT afraid to TALK ABOUT IT - they're shouting it on WALL STREET!

I urgently URGE all of you to TAKE PART and JOIN IN when these protests hit your neck of the woods. Produce some flyers EXPLAINING the "JEW BANKER" influence - DON'T wear anything marking you as an "evil racist" - and GET OUT THERE and SPREAD the WORD! Put as a "contact point" on your literature, our www.ANP14.com address - it won't immediately "scare off" some of these scaredy-cats for even looking at our FACTS - for FACTS they ARE!

If you are unable to produce your own leaflets - check out the "support" section of our website - there are a LOT of good flyers there to utilize.

This issue reminds me a LOT of the "GASOLINE SHORTAGE" of the 1970's - where National Socialists found a HUGE receptive audience, for our viewpoints - per the JEWISH CONTROL of OUR GOVERNMENT and its insane support for Zionist Israel, and the Arab Oil Boycott that hit OUR people so hard.

As I have so often in the past spoke on - the White Working Class - is going PAST, the BOILING POINT, and is quickly reaching ULTIMATE EXPLOSION! THEY want ANSWERS! THEY want RESULTS! All of which this evil corrupt, decadent JUDEO-CAPITALIST SYSTEM is incapable of giving them. WHY? Because its BOUGHT and SOLD to the CORPORATE ELITISTS who are fast turning America into a "South American" style - THIRD WORLD WAGE-SLAVE STATE - ( complete with MILLIONS of BROWN illegal aliens willing to ACCEPT YOUR JOB for LOW WAGES and NO BENEFITS ) where, currently 3% of the population CONTROL 85% of the nation's WEALTH! And the "GREAT DIVIDE" is GROWING each and every year that passes.

WE - the WHITE WORKING CLASS - have been LIED TO and totally DECIEVED - just the other day, the system APPROVED THREE MORE so-called "Free-Trade" deals. ALL of which mean that MORE JOBS are going to be SENT OVERSEAS - YOUR JOBS! Don't you CARE? Enough to DO SOMETHING?

NOW is the TIME! GET INVOLVED! IT'S YOUR FUTURE THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT.

YOU can DO - ONE of TWO THINGS - SUBMIT to the uncaring GREED of these CORORATE, WALL STREET THUGS and their SOCK-PUPPETS in GOVERNMENT. OR, - YOU can RESIST! I CHOOSE RESISTANCE for MY FAMILY and MYSELF!


20 Oct 11 - 11:24 AM (#3241932)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

It always amazes me what a frontal lobotomy and a quart of hard liquor can inspire people to write.


20 Oct 11 - 01:06 PM (#3241987)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.

Sawz hasn't had & doesn't need a frontal lobotomy. He comes by his stupidity naturally. As for the rotgut, I dumnno.

There is a lot of truth in that statement.

But there's a lot more bullshit, PeeDee. Marxist? Please.

The "cause" of the "depression" was de-regulation of financial institutions, repeal of the Glass–Steagall Act, massive tax cuts and Reaganomics. Lets give credit where credit is due, eh?

They also lost their ticket to the Promised Land.

Ah, but they never HAD a ticket to the promised land, only the Horatio Alger delusion..


20 Oct 11 - 01:35 PM (#3242005)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Sawzaw

GF has nothing but personal attacks to offer.

They illustrate his personality and his thought processes perfectly.

Do not question the facts. You are ill equipped for that. Instead attack the person in an attempt to bring the facts into question. Ritual defamation is easier than disproving facts.


"with all the dirty tricks they had played on Clinton that he was not going to repeal it" Clinton could have vetoed it. Why didn't he?

"Today, Congress voted to update the rules that have governed financial services since the Great Depression and replace them with a system for the 21st century,"then-Treasury Secretary Lawrence H. Summers said at the time. "This historic legislation will better enable American companies to compete in the new economy."

Lawrence Henry Summers is an American economist. He served as the 71st United States Secretary of the Treasury from 1999 to 2001 under President Bill Clinton. He was Director of the White House United States National Economic Council for President Barack Obama until November 2010. Summers is the Charles W. Eliot University Professor at Harvard University's Kennedy School of Government. He is the 1993 recipient of the John Bates Clark Medal for his work in several fields of economics.

Summers also served as the 27th President of Harvard University from 2001 to 2006. Summers resigned as Harvard's president in the wake of a no-confidence vote by Harvard faculty that resulted in large part from Summers's conflict with Cornel West, financial conflict of interest questions regarding his relationship with Andrei Shleifer, and a 2005 speech in which he suggested that the under-representation of women in science and engineering could be due to a "different availability of aptitude at the high end," and less to patterns of discrimination and socialization.

Summers has also been criticized for the economic policies he advocated as Treasury Secretary and in later writings. In 2009, he was tapped by President Obama to be the director of the White House National Economic Council.


Them Harvard guys know their shit alright.


20 Oct 11 - 01:59 PM (#3242020)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

I meant the remarks penned by the Nazis.


20 Oct 11 - 03:07 PM (#3242051)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk

Sawzaw - I don't doubt that the American Nazi Party or any other neo-Nazi types would be pleased by massive social unrest and anger at bankers, and I don't doubt that they would hope to take advantage of it in some way....

But so what? That is no reflection on the OWS movement itself. You don't become "evil" yourself just because someone else reacts favorably to a situation which might prove politically advantageous to them in some way if they can turn it to their advantage.

What is your point? That Nazis are out to get Jews and are on a racial superiority trip? I think we already knew that.

You seem to be just as upset with the bankers as the protestors are. What would you like to do about it?


20 Oct 11 - 03:15 PM (#3242058)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: gnu

Felonious Munk's commentary on the "crisis"


20 Oct 11 - 03:21 PM (#3242060)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk

Awright! LOL! I have a smile on my face for the first time today. Feels good.


20 Oct 11 - 03:23 PM (#3242061)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

Lox, thanks for the reference to Nomi Prins. I Googled the name, quickly scanned a couple of web sites (brief note on Wikipedia, then her own site, and a quick glance at a couple of others).

As Arnie said in that movie, "I'll be back!!"

It looks like this lady knows, not only where all the bodies are buried, but who dunnit! And her book titles say "MUST READ!!"

Again, thanks for the referral! Bobert! LH! Check her out!

####

Judging from the tone of the last few posts by Songwronger, pdq, and Sawzaw, the OWS movement must be getting to them a bit. Along with the barrage of Right Wing propaganda, I detect a distinct note that verges on frenzy!

Don Firth


20 Oct 11 - 03:26 PM (#3242067)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.

Do not question the facts. You are ill equipped for that.

That's both the funniest & most inane statement you've come up with in a long time, Sawz, & believe me, it has some tough competition.


20 Oct 11 - 03:29 PM (#3242072)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk

It just occurred to me, Sawzaw, that American Nazis are opposed to cannibalism, drunk driving, and child rape.

So am I.

And they like fresh corn on the cob.

So do I!

Does this put me in solidarity with American Nazis? ;-)


20 Oct 11 - 03:39 PM (#3242075)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton

They came FIRST for the Communists.....but "liberals" hate Communists!!.......Go figure! :0)


20 Oct 11 - 04:25 PM (#3242095)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox

Interesting,

In my last post I pointed out that"redistribution of wealth" is not on the OWS agenda.


In the very next post, pdq walks right on by and starts explaining what the problem with redistributing the wealth is ...


... Talk about straw men ... the right wing is building straw godzillas ...


20 Oct 11 - 04:29 PM (#3242098)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox

Don, You won't regret it - she knows not only whodunnit and where the bodies are buried, but how it was done and the motive.

In addition, there is no better or more experienced or more qualified economist or finacier on the planet.


20 Oct 11 - 04:50 PM (#3242107)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

Ditto that. The gal's got brains and guts.


20 Oct 11 - 06:11 PM (#3242146)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.

Brains are superfluous and actually detrimental in present the present day U.S. of A.


20 Oct 11 - 06:58 PM (#3242170)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk

That depends on what you're planning to do with them. It can endanger your chances of being elected, of course.


20 Oct 11 - 07:14 PM (#3242175)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Hey, ya'll... Just got home from another day of driving the P-Vine to doctors appointments and still have things to do this evening other than pudder stuff so it may not be until tomorrow before I get to Nomi Prins but I will...

I do find it typically Sawz to twist shit into a shit pretzel with Nazis... That takes the kind of twisting that would have us believe that the Jews were responsible for the Holocaust but that what Sawz does... ((((yawn)))

Glad that others are seeing right thru Songwronger's wrong song... Wrong as wrong can be... What next??? The OWS responsible for the kidnapping of the Linburg baby??? I mean, these tin-foilers are just downright unbelievable in the utter horse poo that that are willing ti ingest and spit out as "facts"???

More later...

B~


20 Oct 11 - 08:53 PM (#3242209)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Okay, now I've at least skimmed thru Nomi Prins writings and other than being a complete and total fox, she has it figured out...

I have written here on other threads the BS games that Wall Street plays to extract real cash out for their guys... I have compared "credit default swaps" to a bunch of rich guys sitting around a poker table playing with real people's money and another bunch of rich guys behind them with side bets and no matter who wins or loses, real money is "extracted" out of our economy that was earned by working people and buried in rich people's backyards...

This is the problem... Be it "derivatives" or "credit default swaps" it doesn't matter... These are ballgames that Wall Street crooks use to extract cash out of our economy... That money can no longer be used to be spent and therefore go from hand to hand and that is what GNP is all about... Dollars have to move... The rich have taken trillions out of circulation... Doesn't take a PhD in economics to tell ya' that that ain't good for the economy...

I mean, let's get real here...

B~


20 Oct 11 - 09:44 PM (#3242236)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk

Nomi Prins writes about the OWS movement:

The protesters behind Occupy Wall Street and their supporters, of which I am one, share a gut feeling of utter disgust, rage and frustration at the havoc our nation's policies, from Washington to Wall Street, have wreaked not only on this current economy, but on hope of a more stable, widespread financial security for the future.

As such, the manifesto released by Occupy Wall Street is actually fairly complete, more so than its detractors would have people believe. The list includes requirements that others and I have argued for years, such as bringing back Glass-Steagall (i.e., breaking up the banks) and detaching corporate money and its influence from the political system.

More than at any other time in our nation's history, bipartisan political leaders, regulatory bodies and quasi-private entities, like the Federal Reserve, have subsidized an unstable, risk-laden, abusive and sometimes criminal banking system, which, through its unchecked practices, has catalyzed what I consider another Great Depression that will last for years.

Beyond the explicit demands and solutions of the manifesto, many of which exist at a level more complex than the dozens of different slogans paraded through streets nationwide, there are more visceral needs at a basic human level that prompted people to demonstrate.

First and foremost, protesters want accountability from Wall Street ("They got bailed out, we got sold out.") They seek punishment for people who committed economic crimes against the population, rather than indignant political gamesmanship that produces no result.

("From New York to L.A., Make the Wall Street Bankers Pay.") People get hauled into jail for minor drug infractions, and yet major fraud and market and securities manipulation remain rampant and systemic.

Protesters want jobs and the financial security that comes with them.

As in countries like Greece, Spain, Ireland and Egypt, more than 25% of the youth in this country are unemployed - and that number is growing.

Add that to the 16% to 17% of underemployed individuals, and it's no wonder that desperation has reached this visible point.

I wrote in this publication as the demonstrations in Cairo were reaching their peak that they were more about economic desperation than desire for political or leadership change. If people can't afford to eat or protect themselves financially, they revolt - there's nothing left to lose at that point.

Students want affordable education. Due to our current monetary policy of near zero-rate money, banks receive exceedingly cheap financing terms, which they have not bestowed upon their degree-seeking customers.

Homeowners want to keep their homes. To date, there have been about $1 billion of SEC mortgage-related "settlements" with Wall Street. They are negotiated absent requiring any admission of guilt, nor a dial-back of foreclosures or increase in refinancings to help borrowers. With $7 trillion of value lost from the housing market in the past few years, people understandably want to revise their economic profiles.

The biggest banks make that nearly impossible, despite the multitrillion-dollar largesse received from the government in their darkest hours.

Finally, protesters want fairer distribution of wealth and taxes.

They don't want cutbacks to social/economic programs, or for public service or private sector jobs to pay for federal generosity to a Wall Street comprising banks that are not just too big to fail, but bigger than they were before their subsidies and bailouts were initiated a few years ago. ("They Say Cut Back, We Say Fight Back")

In other words, the protesters may be learning from each other as they go along - and are all there for different reasons, with different degrees of knowledge and understanding of how to reach the goals they seek and even the complexity of the span of demands that exist and may grow. And that's just fine.


20 Oct 11 - 10:02 PM (#3242247)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Songwronger

Hey, I'm in agreement with the 99% folks. There has to be change. Unfortunately it's pretty late in the game, and the people who've taken the field are being run around in circles. The 1% has fled, and now they're stirring up the left-behinds. The 99% COULD take control of the situation and effect change, but that won't happen as long as they allow themselves to be directed by their current corps of handlers. The elite will suck all the energy out of OWS the way they sucked money out of the banks. OWS needs unified, strong demands. The longer the movement goes without them, the less effective it will be.

Clinton and Glass-Steagall. So Reagan made him repeal it? Jeez. Learn something new every day. I missed the photo of Reagan holding the gun to his head. And what else? Oh, NAFTA. Did Bush make Clinton sign that? And did Bush Jr. make Obama run up a 15 trillion dollar taxpayer tab with his stimulus package? So it's Republicans that make Democrats do all these things? Good to know.

Spoiler alert: the Democratic and Republican presidents have been working together to destroy America's middle class, and at the end of the show millions of extras are sitting on the curbs in front of their seized homes and wailing about Republicans and racism. A downer ending. I'd rewrite it if I could.


20 Oct 11 - 10:23 PM (#3242252)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Bill Clinton was a Nixon Republican... I wouldn't have voted for him as dog catcher... I was pounding doors for Green Party...

So what???

The reality is that the FAT CATS on Wall St. absconded with a $14T of someone else's money...

Here's where I kinda have to part from Nomi's analysis... TARP had a dollar amount... TARP is over... Why do we make this the government's fault??? I mean, the banks are stealin' from everyone they can... And the Tea Party Republicans said that's fine with them... We don't need Washington meddling in our affairs...

And that's the way it is...

B~


20 Oct 11 - 11:27 PM (#3242260)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

"And did Bush Jr. make Obama run up a 15 trillion dollar taxpayer tab with his stimulus package?"

Bush ran up half that tab, SS.


20 Oct 11 - 11:52 PM (#3242265)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Songwronger

No, no, no. Bush had his "bailout." And it was so good that Obama got sloppy seconds with his "stimulus." Together they took about 25 trillion dollars from American taxpayers with that one-two. And Obama got greedy just recently and tried to dip in again with his "jobs program," but people saw it for the third bailout it really was and rejected it.

The real fun will begin when the Bank of America claims U.S. taxpayers are responsible for their 75 trillion worth of derivatives debt. Politicians will test the waters to see if they can get away with it, and if they can, they'll saddle us with that. And Obama will say Bush made him do it, or the Tea Party or something like that, and diehard Democrats will support him.

Meanwhile, Democrats aren't working to get that monster out of office. They're being "politically active" with the OWS protests. Makes me want to cry. Obama the mass murderer is going to slither into another nomination.


21 Oct 11 - 01:19 AM (#3242282)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

. . . little Mary Sunshine. . . .

Why don't we just give up, eh?

Don Firth


21 Oct 11 - 08:51 AM (#3242422)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

FACT: The dollar amount of Obama's stimulus package was $700B, of which $300B went into "shovel ready" projects and $400B went into less stimulating tax cuts...

MYTHOLOGY: "Together they took about 25 trillion dollars"

SUMMATION: The above poster is part of the ObamaHateBrigade and rather than use facts just makes up stuff??? I mean, why not $100T, songwronger??? No, make it $10G (as in gazillion)...

Now, I ain't exactly happy with Obama but the mythology of the right wing is absolutely astounding and imaginative...

But there is a nugget of truth in there and that is the banks have created several "products" (what a strange word???) that they use to siphon cash out of their corrupt banking practices... Derivatives and credit default swaps should be illegal... This is theft... This is why banks aren't making those loans to small businesses... They are too busy figuring out how to game their own selves??? Go figure???

B~


21 Oct 11 - 10:04 AM (#3242463)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

Do the math on the national debt:

Date               Debt

09/30/2010        $13,561,623,030,891.78
09/30/2000        $5,674,178,209,886.86
09/28/1990        $3,233,313,451,777.25
12/31/1980        $930,210,000,000.00
12/31/1970        $389,158,403,690.26
12/30/1960        $290,216,815,241.68
06/30/1950        $257,357,352,351.04
06/29/1940        $42,967,531,037.68
06/30/1930        $16,185,309,831.43
07/01/1920        $25,952,456,406.16
07/01/1910        $2,652,665,838.04
07/01/1900        $2,136,961,091.67
07/01/1890        $1,552,140,204.73
07/01/1880        $2,120,415,370.63
07/01/1870        $2,480,672,427.81
07/01/1860        $64,842,287.88
07/01/1850        $63,452,773.55
01/01/1840        $3,573,343.82
01/01/1830        $48,565,406.50
01/01/1820        $91,015,566.15
01/01/1810        $53,173,217.52
01/01/1800        $82,976,294.35


21 Oct 11 - 10:10 AM (#3242465)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: pdq

Homeowners want to keep their homes. To date, there have been about $1 billion of SEC mortgage-related "settlements" with Wall Street. They are negotiated absent requiring any admission of guilt, nor a dial-back of foreclosures or increase in refinancings to help borrowers. With $7 trillion of value lost from the housing market in the past few years, people understandably want to revise their economic profiles. ~ Maomi Prins

That is the lowest estimate I have heard. Some guess it is closer to a $17 trillion drop in the value just of residential real estate.

TARP bailout funds totaled about $770 billion, $420 billion of which was spent after Obama took office.


21 Oct 11 - 10:36 AM (#3242478)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: pdq

Students want affordable education. Due to our current monetary policy of near zero-rate money, banks receive exceedingly cheap financing terms, which they have not bestowed upon their degree-seeking customers. ~ Naomi Prins, again

Sounds like she missed this one since Obama ended all federal-susidized student loans. All such money comes directly from the federal bureaucracy now and none is meaded out through private lenders.

Note that federal-subsidized loans are dead, not federal student loans which are going strong.

Oh, and there is at least $1 trillion in student loans outstanding that people have no intentions of paying back.

Some of that money is owed by members of Congress!


21 Oct 11 - 10:40 AM (#3242481)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing

I hope the folks that make up the OWS are more focussed than those camped out in the churcyard of St.Pauls Cathedral in London. A little investigation has shown that the assembly has attracted, apart from those concerned with questioning the financial world and anti-capitalists, a hotch-potch of others. Anti fox hunting group, street singers on about world peace, vegan cake makers, a few of the usual "rentamob", computer hackers, anti war and arms dealers, climate change scaremongers and no doubt some other miscellaneous mal-contents. The sad thing about it is that there is no concensus among them as to what to do and how to do it. They are no better informed or equipped than the politicians and financiers against whom they are venting their spleen.


21 Oct 11 - 11:14 AM (#3242493)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

"The sad thing about it is that there is no concensus among them as to what to do and how to do it."

Sounds like they'd be naturals for government, pick a country.


21 Oct 11 - 11:58 AM (#3242526)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Actually, there is a lot of consensus with OWS...

End the wars

Tax the rich

Get $$$$ out of politics...

Kill Citizen's United...

Bring back Glass-Steagall...

etc....

Now if ya'll want 200 page "white papers", forget it... That is not what we are about... That's just the current right wing's attack on the movement... Our conversation... Not yours... We won't get fooled again...

B~


21 Oct 11 - 12:41 PM (#3242550)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

Let's hope not, Bobert.


21 Oct 11 - 01:08 PM (#3242577)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox

PDQ - I found a million websites atating that Obama "recommended" ending subsidized student loans - none that say he actually did it ...

Besides - this recommendatiion came about in feb 2011 (in august this was still not policy)

When did Prins make her comments?


I think you will find that she has missed nothing but is 100% on top of her game.


21 Oct 11 - 01:10 PM (#3242580)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox

Yes - there we are - The bill would come into effect in July 2012 ...

So I am sorry to be the one to tell you pdq but you are misinformed.


21 Oct 11 - 01:12 PM (#3242583)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Sawzaw

"That's both the funniest & most inane statement you've come up with in a long time, Sawz, & believe me, it has some tough competition. "

You can prove that by actually discussing the facts instead of using ad hominem attacks.


21 Oct 11 - 01:46 PM (#3242605)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: pdq

Mark Kantrowitz / Publisher of FinAid and Fastweb

September 22, 2009


The US House of Representatives passed the Student Aid and Fiscal Responsibility Act of 2009 (SAFRA) on September 17, 2009 by a party-line vote of 253 to 171.

This legislation eliminates the federally-guaranteed student loan program and replaces it with 100% direct lending from the federal government. SAFRA uses the savings to fund an increase in the Pell Grant program among other initiatives. The US Senate is expected to consider its own version of the legislation within a few weeks.

The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimated that ending the origination of federal education loans by banks and other financial institutions would save the federal government $87 billion over the next ten years.

The education lenders countered with their own proposal, but the CBO scored it as saving $13 billion less. The Obama administration argues that the Direct Loan program saves the government money by eliminating the middleman. However, much of the savings comes from the federal government's lower cost of funds.

From a practical perspective, most students will not notice much of a difference between the Direct Loan and federally-guaranteed student loan programs. Money is fungible — it's still green whether it comes from a bank or from the US Department of Education.

The Direct Loan program has a lower interest rate on the PLUS loan program (7.9% versus 8.5%) due to a legislative drafting error that was never corrected. PLUS loan approval rates are also higher in the Direct Loan program. Customer service is a bit better during the loan origination process in the Direct Loan program, but a bit worse during repayment.

However, the US Department of Education has awarded contracts to four of the largest education lenders to service loans in the Direct Loan program. The SAFRA legislation has no impact on existing student loans or borrowers who have already graduated.

About half of the savings will be used to index the maximum Pell Grant to the inflation rate plus 1%. It would increase to $5,550 in 2010-2011 and likely reach $6,900 by 2019-2020. However, it does not turn the Pell Grant into a true entitlement program. Congress could still cut Pell Grant funding during the annual budget appropriations process as it did in 2008.

The legislation also eliminates all of the asset questions and many of the untaxed income questions on the Free Application for Federal Student Aid (FAFSA), cutting about a page from the six-page form. This will eliminate any penalty for savings in the federal need analysis formula, so there will no longer be any disincentive to saving for college.

SAFRA includes several provisions relating to student loans. The interest rate on subsidized Stafford loans for undergraduate students will switch to a variable rate capped at 6.8% starting on July 1, 2012. Otherwise the interest rate would have increased from 3.4% to 6.8% on that date, a big jump.

Annual funding for the Perkins Loan program would increase four-fold from $1.5 billion to $6.0 billion a year. While the new Perkins loan would no longer have subsidized interest, the interest rate would remain at 5.0%. Students at many more colleges would become eligible for the Perkins loan.

The new College Access Challenge Grant program would be focused on increasing enrollment, persistence and completion rates. It would fund financial literacy programs and make it easier for students to transfer from 2-year colleges to 4-year colleges. There would also be a significant increase in funding for community colleges and minority institutions.


21 Oct 11 - 02:07 PM (#3242614)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: pdq

Student Aid and Fiscal Responsibility Act (SAFRA)

Provisions of the Student Aid and Fiscal Responsibility Act (SAFRA) were included in the Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act (HCERA) of 2010, which was signed into law by President Obama on March 30, 2010. The legislation makes college more affordable for millions of Americans, at no new cost to taxpayers.

The Congressional Budget Office estimates the legislation would generate $61 billion in net savings over the next 10 years by ending the Federal Family Education Loan Program. The reconciliation bill directs those savings to students and families by:

    * Investing $36 billion over 10 years to increase the maximum annual Pell Grant award to $5,550 in 2010 and to $5,975 by 2017. Starting in 2013, the award will indexed at the Consumer Price Index and increase with costs-of-living. This includes an investment of $13.5 billion to fund the shortfall due to increased Pell Grant demand;
    * Investing $750 million to bolster college access and completion support for students, part of which will increase funding for the College Access Challenge Grant program;
    * Making federal loans more affordable for borrowers to repay by investing $1.5 billion to strengthen an Income-Based Repayment program. New provisions would lower the monthly cap to just 10 percent (currently 15 percent) of discretionary income for new borrowers after 2014; and
    * Investing $2 billion in a competitive grant program for community colleges to develop and improve educational or career training programs.

In addition, the SAFRA directs $10 billion of savings back to the U.S. Treasury toward deficit reduction.


{This shows that the provisions were indeed passed and became law. The glowing sales pitch above is pure propaganda as the real result was to end federal-guaranteed student loans and put the decision-makig power firmly in the hands of federal activists and thei friends.}


21 Oct 11 - 02:42 PM (#3242632)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,TIA

Quote any little snippets you like.
If you look at all the facts, it is very clear how we ended up here.
Everyone in the USA should be required to read this.
If you get to the end and don't agree - fine (but please use data to refute).
But it should be required reading.

https://docs.google.com/present/view?id=dfjpnvj7_362gqsrdddt&revision=_latest&start=0&theme=blank&cwj=true

slide show


21 Oct 11 - 03:14 PM (#3242640)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

TIA has pretty much summed it up.


21 Oct 11 - 03:44 PM (#3242660)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

Thanks for posting that, TIA!

Don Firth


21 Oct 11 - 05:14 PM (#3242682)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

I've seen that graph before and heard it described as the "bikini graph"... Purdy much sums up Reaganomics... A completely dumb idea gone from dumber to dumbest when the economy was on verge of going off the cliff in September of 2008... And here's the kicker... The Republican presidential candidates all want even more of it???

Thanks for posting it, TIA...

B~


21 Oct 11 - 08:45 PM (#3242790)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Stringsinger

The reason that the Wall Street Protests work is that the protesters have connected the dots and can't be pinned down to a sound byte issue.

Corporations and banksters are greedy. They make lots of money which they spend on:

1. war
2. pollution
3. destroying the middle class
4. destroying small businesses
5. paying CEO's too much at the expense of the taxpayer
6. foreclosures
7. cutting benefits for poor and middle class
8. supporting shadow organizations like ALEC
9. supporting politicians by buying them off
10. suppressing free speech (by buying off the main stream media)
11. buying off the police in New York City who pepper spray and abuse demonstrators
12. destroying unions
13. allowing lobbying to dominate politicians
14. gambling with taxpayer's money
15. being sociopaths
16. shipping jobs overseas
17. flaunting their wealth with champagne toasts while people are hungry

(The beat goes on. What's not to understand?)

Fortunately the demonstrators are smart enough not to be collared by some pundit.


21 Oct 11 - 08:48 PM (#3242794)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

BINGO, Strings...

This is why the right wing is pushing this mythology that OWS doesn't have any positions... No, it has plenty... No 200 page "white papers", thank you... And there won't be any... That's a trap...

B~


21 Oct 11 - 08:54 PM (#3242799)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

"Corporations and banksters are greedy. They make lots of money which they spend on:"

They make money from that list of things, SS. It's simply re-investments to them.

"Monetarily, in 1940 dollars, the estimated cost [of WW II to the USA] was $288 Billion. In 2007 dollars this would amount to approximately $5 Trillion. In addition, the effects of the war on the U.S. economy were that it decisively ended the depression and created a booming economic windfall. Because the United States mainland was untouched by the war her economic wealth and prosperity soared as she became the world leader in manufacturing, technology, industry and agriculture."

It's a mere bagatelle in comparison, but there is still 60 billion dollars unaccounted for from the war in Iraq. Wasn't my money so I ain't complaining, but it makes me wonder why youse guys aren't asking about it. Sixty billion here, 500 billion there and pretty soon it adds up to real money.


22 Oct 11 - 10:16 AM (#3243021)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Stringsinger

Guest 999,

It's important to connect the dots. You are right. Naturally, the investors don't care about the American public. They wouldn't care about the stolen money in Iraq either.

I don't completely buy the theory that the effects of the war ended the great depression by itself. Roosevelt's policies in place had a lot to do with what followed.

One proof for this is that the US has conducted at least three wars and is still sliding
into a depression. One reason is that the country doesn't support these wars. There are holdouts from the 1940's who remember the so-called Great War and have a fantasy about it returning to the old days when life for them was less complex. Most Americans according to polls don't think the US incursions are doing much good.

This is another reason why people are in the streets. They are asked to pay for useless wars so that GE and other contractors can make money for their greedy CEO's.

You say it's business as usual but I say it's sociopathy.


22 Oct 11 - 10:25 PM (#3243296)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Seems that everyone who is threatened by OWS wants details...

Hey, the details are for Congressional staffers...

End the wars and tax the rich...

Income inequality...

Corrupt electoral system...

I mean, this ain't all that tough...

I'm tired... I was the "drummer boy" today and I drummed and drummed and I'm tired...

B~


22 Oct 11 - 11:06 PM (#3243311)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: gnu

Many are tired Bobert... gotta get big money outta governing... just one problem... big money pays and big money says... and there ain't nuthin you or I can do about it short of using force and that ain't viable is it?

Protest all ya want but what's it really gonna do? The rich use cruise missiles. I gotta a shotgun. Yer welcome to it. But I just don't see it makin any difference.

Maybe a rocket launcher?


22 Oct 11 - 11:36 PM (#3243325)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Well, gn-ze... Two choices... Let the rich continue playin' "Deliverance" with *US* or not...

Your pick...

B~


23 Oct 11 - 12:55 AM (#3243343)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus

The rocket launcher of politics is the organized voting bloc.


23 Oct 11 - 03:14 AM (#3243365)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

Suppose you're right, Dick. Let's look at the picture.

There will be three 'sets' of elections for 2012's 'new' federal government.

1) President: Some Repub or Obama.

2) Senate: at present, 57 Dems, 41 Repubs, 2 Inds. Of those seats, 23 Dems are up for re-election and 10 Repubs are up for re-election.

Just suppose every contested seat could be filled with an Ind. The Senate would then look like this: 35 Inds, 34 Repubs and 31 Dems. There might be a workable Senate. However, I don't see that happening anytime soon. Unless people are as thoroughly fed up with Senators as OWS people seem to be, we can expect about the same numbers as exist at present.

3) House: At present, 242 Repubs, 193 Dems. Unless there is some fancy footwork, what's gonna change? How can the Repubs be caused to lose over 24 seats?

##############################################

Looks like the rocket launcher is gonna fizzle unless the power of the Senate can be broken. And who's gonna put cash behind independents, and if no one does, what's really gonna change? And if Wall Street does, it's just more same ol same ol and still nothing changes. IMO.


23 Oct 11 - 08:12 AM (#3243459)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST

As long as the corporation have complete control of the language we use to discuss our dilemma and complete control of the media by which it distributes misinfomation voting will only give us SSDD...

Garbage in = garbage out...

B~


23 Oct 11 - 11:39 AM (#3243536)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus

Inds ain't worth much when it comes to getting things done. If the TEa Party can control the GOP nomination process to the point that Perry is too liberal when it comes to immigration an Cain is threatened because of hi "liberal waffling about abortion in cases of rape and incest, the pattern for taking over a party is pretty well established.


23 Oct 11 - 01:33 PM (#3243575)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: pdq

Senate: at present, 57 Dems, 41 Repubs, 2 Inds. Of those seats, 23 Dems are up for re-election and 10 Repubs are up for re-election. ~ GUEST,999

Actually, that would have been the count ia a past Congress after Scott Brown unexpectedly took the Kennedy Seat away, reducing the Democrat's 60-vote fillibuster-proof majority to 59.

Current count is 51 Democrat and 47 Republican, with Lieberman and Sanders ostensibly independents, but they meet, caucus and vote with the Democrats. They were both labled Senate Democrats at one time.


23 Oct 11 - 02:05 PM (#3243591)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

Thanks for the correction, pdq. I was writing that early this morning and must have been looking at old data. From my perspective, it then makes things un-doable in the Senate.


23 Oct 11 - 02:45 PM (#3243609)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: pdq

Just something to think about...

In 2006, with the House and Senate in Republican control, they (total for both houses) introduced 2759 pieces of legislation.

After the Democrats won the Trifecta of House, Senate and presidency in the 2008 election, Ried and Pelosi introduced 9071 pieces of legislation in 2009 including ObamaCare which had nearly 3000 pages in that one bill!

Yes millions of pages of legislation to micromanage every aspect of our lives.

No wonder the country went into apoplexy.


23 Oct 11 - 02:58 PM (#3243613)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

"Micromanage?'

Trying to see that people who otherwise couldn't afford it can get decent medical care is hardly "micromanaging."

Wanting to cut Social Security and Medicare, especially when some very wealthy people are paying no taxes at all, and are, in fact, getting hefty bonuses for such things as unethical business practices and laying people off their jobs, on the other hand, most definitly IS.

Which might just have something to do with Occupy Wall Street.

Don Firth


23 Oct 11 - 03:01 PM (#3243614)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

Dick, I disagree. I think the key to a 'fairer' Senate would be a healthy number of Independents. At least enough to make the defeat of bad bills possible. I think neither Dems or Repubs should have the ability to get stuff through all by themselves. Imagine a Senate with a 40/40/20 split. Yes, it would slow things a bit, but that's not a bad idea. It would force bills to be debated and restructured. There has been altogether too much pushed through with 'attachments' or 'riders' that make for terrible precedent and even worse law. If I voted in your country, I would not vote for anyone aligned with either main party--hell, they were and are the parties that have brought the USA to the present state it's in. And it's ugly, despised and/or mistrusted around the world, hated (as it is) by millions of its own citizens.

I would hope independents would have the balls to tell lobbyists for Wall Street "You have five minutes of my time, and the clock starts now." It might begin to change a few things. But give people what they have had all along, however cleverly disguised, and your country will fall because Americans themselves will no longer 'believe' in their elected reps. OWS no longer do, and imo they are just the beginning of a real grassroots movement that will rock the foundations of your democracy. I think your founding fathers would be proud.


23 Oct 11 - 03:57 PM (#3243632)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

I hate to say it but if the OWS movement doesn't bust up Boss Hog's ballgame then the US is well on it's way to becoming a failed state...

1/2 of American families now live under $26,000 a year...

The government's "official" poverty threshold for a family of 4 is $22,400 a year...

This is a formula for not just a revolution but a violent one at that...

The righties think this a a big joke...

Yeah, haha...

B~


24 Oct 11 - 03:48 AM (#3243798)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Bluesman

I see the great unwashed have decided to block the path of those who wish to follow their faith. Tramps, send in the army and hose the bastards off the streets and stop their benefits.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2052650/MELANIE-PHILLIPS-Make-mistake-disillusionment-entire-political-class-blame-St-


24 Oct 11 - 06:03 AM (#3243831)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox

Surprise surprise - Melanie Philips of the Mail inventing crap about those getting more attention than her.

How sad.


24 Oct 11 - 11:25 AM (#3243967)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Stringsinger

The power of OWS is that it doesn't embrace a single soundbyte issue for the media.
It is powerful and will change the system and bring democracy back to America because
that's what Americans (overwhelming majority of them) want.

"Politicians hear our thunder. Get off the track or you'll fall under!"

People's Train, the Occupation.


24 Oct 11 - 01:24 PM (#3244028)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus

Just what do you mean by "change the system"?


24 Oct 11 - 01:43 PM (#3244039)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

Well, for starters, it would be nice to get 60 million people above the poverty line, no?


24 Oct 11 - 01:52 PM (#3244043)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Amos

$26000 a year would be plenty if gas were still 50 cents a gallon and bread was 30 cents a loaf.


A


24 Oct 11 - 02:13 PM (#3244056)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,TIA

No private money in elections.
Public financing.
Fixed amount, then that's it.


24 Oct 11 - 05:14 PM (#3244131)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

The mentiion of campaign contributions brings up a matter that may merit a closer look.

When Sarah Palin leapt into national prominence as a Vice Presidential candidate, one of the first things she did with the campaign contributions was spend about $150,000 on a new wardrobe.

Then she gallivants all over the country, does television interviews, provides vast quantities of material for comedians like Tina Fay, and generally gets her ego stroked.

She quits her regular job (Governor of Alaska) to concentrate more on the presidential election, which leads to more campaign contributions (from people more bewildered than she is)—then she withdraws from the race!

None of the contributed money is going to where the contributors intended.

Isn't that what is generally known as a scam?

Just curious. . . .

Don Firth


24 Oct 11 - 05:46 PM (#3244141)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.

Would be for the "scam-ees" to complain, one would think- 'cept they're too goddamn stupid & they still love her. No facts need apply.


24 Oct 11 - 05:48 PM (#3244143)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Yeah, when you think about the cost of replacing a blown engine in a 15 year old Honda then 1/2 of American families are one blown engine away from poverty...

I agree with Strings... OWS will "change the system" because the system has become badly corrupted by the crooks...

B~


24 Oct 11 - 06:23 PM (#3244157)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Songwronger

Well since I'm here, 500.


24 Oct 11 - 06:28 PM (#3244159)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Richard Bridge

500! I never had one before!


24 Oct 11 - 06:36 PM (#3244162)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Songwronger

Oops.


24 Oct 11 - 07:32 PM (#3244204)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

You been "wronged", Richard...

B;~)


24 Oct 11 - 08:24 PM (#3244234)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Songwronger

Hmm. Occupy Wall Street was the brainchild of Adbusters, an anti-consumerist magazine based in Vancouver, British Columbia. Last July they declared that on September 17, 2011 they would begin the protest. Adbusters is partly financed by multi-billionaire George Soros' Tides Foundation.

Several labor unions are involved in the OWS protests. One of them is the Service Employees International Union (SEIU). Former SEIU official Stephen Lerner spoke last March about bringing down the stock market and destabilizing the nation... Read it for yourself.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/crime/6808-former-union-official-exposes-plot-to-collapse-us-economy

OWS is far from spontaneous and leaderless and unorchestrated and all that. Soros. You don't get much more establishment than that.


24 Oct 11 - 08:39 PM (#3244241)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox

1. The article you posted mentions the word "soros" exactly 0 times.

2. The best you can find online to support your view is a few pieces talking about 'possible' 'indirect' links between soros and adbusters.

3. If anyone wants to try and put together a convincing argument that the movements in Greece, Egypt, Hong Kong etc were orchestrated by an anti capitalist publication in America, they are free to try, but they may find it hard.

4. The idea that a billionaire capitalist would encourage a Mass movement aimed specifically at reducing the power of billionaire capitalists is clearly nonsense anyway - typical right wing audacity, intended to bog the debate down in spurious bull****, masqueradiing as serious commentary.

The story of these 'links' is not worth any attention, nor the alleged 'implications' (which are what anyway?)

No story folks!


24 Oct 11 - 08:41 PM (#3244242)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Hundreds of millions$$$$ from the Koch brothers, health insurance companies, FreedomWorks bought the Tea Party and own the deed... To date, $300,000 in donations to OWS...

Tell the truth, wrong-man...

B~


24 Oct 11 - 08:54 PM (#3244254)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Songwronger

The link was to a piece about Lerner, not about Soros.

There's a great new site called google, where you could type in, say, "Soros adbusters Tides" and learn all kinds of things. That's Google, with two Os.

Koch/Soros. Same beast. Right wing, left. Corral the conservatives with the Tea Party, corral the liberals with OWS. Don't let them off the reservation.

So, do I need to post my pictures again of Obama's party with the Silicon Valley moguls, where he thanked them for his new bloodless warfare system after Egypt? The CIA can now foment revolution almost anywhere it wants with psyops and Twitter. But fortunately the OWS people seem aware of this. CIA man Assange (of Wikileaks notoriety) received a lukewarm reception at one of the OWS events. The way the Twitter thing works is first Wikileaks releases some embarrassing "classified" stuff about the target government, then later Obama's CIA starts a "spontaneous uprising of youth" with Twitter.

Again, use that new Google thing to piece all this together.


24 Oct 11 - 09:02 PM (#3244256)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

No, soros and kochs are NOT the same beast... The Kochs are spending 100X more in elections than is soros... There ahs already been a link here on this thread that I think TIA (maybe it was someone else) that has the figures...

Just because you righties want to make soros a boogie man it isn't based on facts... It's mythology... In other words... It's a lie...

Check out reality, wrongster!!!

B~


24 Oct 11 - 09:15 PM (#3244262)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox

I detect the misappprehension that OWS likes Obama and the democrats.

This is a mistake.

OWS supports no political party.

It criticizes all political parties for being stooges of billionaires.

So post pictures of Obama in silicon Valley - thats exactly what OWS is attacking.


24 Oct 11 - 09:19 PM (#3244264)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox

And as for google,

did you not read this in my post ... the one you were 'responding' to ...

"2. The best you can find online to support your view is a few pieces talking about 'possible' 'indirect' links between soros and adbusters."

There's nothing of any substance, let alone significance.


24 Oct 11 - 09:21 PM (#3244265)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Well, as an OWSer, I come from a Green Party background... Okay, I did vote for Obama "hoping" he would step to the plate against the corportists... He hasn't... Is he better than anyone the Repubns have in the running??? Yeah, he is... Is he going to take on the systemic problems that corporate America has created??? No...

B~


24 Oct 11 - 09:22 PM (#3244266)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.

There's a great new site called google, where you could type in, say, "Soros adbusters Tides" and learn all kinds of things.

Hot Damn! I read it on the Internet so it MUST be true!


24 Oct 11 - 09:27 PM (#3244268)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Songwronger

From an article about George Soros:

George Schwartz was born in Hungary in 1930 — not the luckiest time and place to be born a Jew.

George's father Theodore tried to change the family's fortunes by changing their name to something less Jewish-sounding. It didn't help. And soon war came.

When the Nazis took total control of Hungary in 1944, the Holocaust followed. In two months, 440,000 Hungarian Jews were deported to death camps.

To survive, George, then a teenager, collaborated with the Nazis.

First he worked for the Judenrat. That was the Jewish council set up by the Nazis to do their dirty work for them. Instead of the Nazis rounding up Jews every day for the trains, they delegated that murderous task to Jews who were willing to do it to survive another day at the expense of their neighbours.

Theodore hatched a better plan for his son. He bribed a non-Jewish official at the agriculture ministry to let George live with him. George helped the official confiscate property from Jews.

By collaborating with the Nazis, George survived the Holocaust. He turned on other Jews to spare himself.

George moved to London after the war and then to New York, where he became a stockbroker. He's rich now. Forbes magazine says he's the 35th richest man in the world. Maybe you've heard of him. He goes by the name his father invented: George Soros.

How does Soros feel about what he did as a teenager? Has it kept him up at night?

Steve Kroft of 60 Minutes asked him that. Was it difficult? "Not at all," Soros answered.

"No feeling of guilt?" asked Kroft. "No," said Soros. "There was no sense that I shouldn't be there. If I wasn't doing it, somebody else would be taking it away anyhow. Whether I was there or not. So I had no sense of guilt."

A Nazi would steal the Jews' property anyways. So why not him?

That moral hollowness has shaped Soros' life. He's a rabid critic of capitalism, but in 1992 when he saw a chance, he speculated against the British pound, causing it to crash, devastating retirement savings for millions of Britons. Soros pocketed $1.1 billion for himself. If he didn't do it, someone else would, right?

http://itmakessenseblog.com/2011/01/28/george-soros-says-he-feels-no-remorse-for-collaborating-with-nazis-during-wwii-to-send-hi

I don't like the Koch bros, but I don't like Soros either. Right now he's trying to destory the European Union. Millions will die if he succeeds.

See...this is what OWS is supposed to be about. Soros has to be brought down with the Koch's, right? If that can't be accepted, then OWS is indeed partisan.


24 Oct 11 - 09:30 PM (#3244270)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

You got it, Greg... The right wing has hundreds of paid blogger son their payrolls and their only job is to fuck with people by speading as many lies and propaganda as possible over the internet... But the right wing is also the corporations (not who) that have the BIG $$$ to spend on this kinda stuff... The left doesn't have the BIG $$$...

B~


24 Oct 11 - 09:48 PM (#3244276)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

Those of you who support OWS and who do not know about the tactics used by the Sioux to win the battle at the Little Big Horn better check some reliable sources and read up on it, because the same thing is happening to you here, imo.


24 Oct 11 - 10:12 PM (#3244290)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Good analogy, brucie... Yeah, I get the heck outta what you are saying...

B~


25 Oct 11 - 09:04 AM (#3244491)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.

From an article about George Soros:

CORRECTION: From a hodge-podge of unsubstantiated rants posted on a right-wing blog hosted by a site dedicated to "Make[ing] us Better Informed to Counteract the Radical Revolution".

Gimmie shelter.


25 Oct 11 - 01:06 PM (#3244601)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox

Songwronger,

I thought you were trying to prove the link between Soros and OWS?

Your "article" doesn't mention adbusters once, let alone OWS.


You say:

"Soros has to be brought down with the Koch's, right? If that can't be accepted, then OWS is indeed partisan. "

You seem to have ignored my answer before that OWS does not favour Soros but has a problem with corporatocracy (government by corporations) taking over from democracy (government by people).


OWS doesn't care if the corporatocracy is run by Soros, the Kochs or Ronald McDonald - they are against corporatocracy and pro democracy.

Got it yet?


Besides which, as has been noted, the "artcle" you referred to isn't an article, it is an opinion on an ultra right wing blog withh no facts to back it up.


25 Oct 11 - 01:17 PM (#3244607)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Come on, Lox... Don't be that way... The right loves George Soros... He is their favorite boogie man... The reality that the Kochs outspend him 100 to 1 doesn't matter to them... He's all they have now that they used lies to strip Acorn... If Soros died tomorrow the right would go into a deep, deep depression...

B;~)


25 Oct 11 - 01:36 PM (#3244616)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Stringsinger

We were down at Occupy Atlanta on Monday singing peace, justice and labor songs.
No amplification, just two of us and the traditional Pete Seeger style banjo.

We had some impact. It's so important for unamplified singers to go down to your Occupy and support the people there.


25 Oct 11 - 01:45 PM (#3244621)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

I been playing drums at the rallies... Hey, it's acoustic but good and noisy...

B~


25 Oct 11 - 01:53 PM (#3244625)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Stringsinger

Occupy Atlanta


25 Oct 11 - 02:07 PM (#3244631)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

"How come black folks aren't part of OWS?" is the latest crap to come out of the right..

So much for that MythTeology... This link alone shoots down that BIG LIE in flames...

Thanks for your link, Strings...

B~


25 Oct 11 - 02:23 PM (#3244643)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

Songwronger's faith in the veracity of what he finds on Google is quite touching, but by searching Google, one can ALSO find "proof" for the notion that the earth is hollow and that we are ruled by a race of reptilians who evolved into super-intelligent beings from dinosaurs that survived the effects of the meteor impact 65,000,000 years ago by taking refuge in giant caverns and who now control us without our knowledge.

Web sites on Google are sort of like verses in the Bible. A critical survey shows that they are varied and sufficiently contradictory that one can "prove" anything by carefully selecting the sites/verses that support one's position.

Don Firth


25 Oct 11 - 02:50 PM (#3244657)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

Songwronger is out to lunch on this issue. Fagettabowtit.

Good for you, Stringsinger. You are right that the OWS people need support and encouragement. Old adage in the military: it takes nine soldiers to keep one in the field.

IMO, the best way to deal with the chain-yankers is to

1) briefly refute them (they ain't gonna read what we write anyway)

2) and then ignore them

Dammit, we are right in supporting OWS. Those who don't are

1) wrong

2) not informed

We still live in a world that watches reruns of the integration movement and wonders what they did wrong that allowed good laws to pass. Sheesh.

The crap about Soros and Nazis: I got ten bucks that says most people would have played ball. Either that or Auschwitz.

I read the 'article' and visited the site. I left a message on the site that likely won't be printed. (Misspelled congress as congree.)

Anyway, if that's where this guy is getting his info from, it's no wonder to me that the elevator is only going up a floor and a half.


25 Oct 11 - 04:25 PM (#3244700)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

George Soros, born in 1930, was less than ten years old when Hitler started invading other countries. He was fifteen when WWII came to an end. He was born in Budapest, Hungary into a Jewish family. He emigrated to England in 1947—at the age of seventeen.

Tell me once again, Songwronger, about how he was Hitler's right-hand man in engineering the Holocaust.

Indeed, in his early teens, he had a job as a gofer for the "Jewish Council." He was to deliver slips of paper to various Jews in the city, telling them to report to a particular location at 9:00 a.m. He showed the slips to his father, who recognized them, and told young Gyorgy to tell the people he delivered the slips to that if they DID report to the appointed place at the appointed time, they would be "deported." And that they had best make themselves very scarce!!

I had a friend (gone now) who was a Hungarian Jew. He told me that when he was eight years old, his family had received such a warning, and escaped that night and made their way circuitously to the United States. He had friends whose families were rounded up and sent to the gas chambers.

Bulletin, Songwronger! George Soros WAS, and IS, one of the GOOD GUYS!

Learn to live with it!

Don Firth


25 Oct 11 - 04:41 PM (#3244707)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Yeah, George Soros supports pro-human causes while the Koch brothers buy political power that allows them to poison our water and pollute our air...

B~


25 Oct 11 - 06:15 PM (#3244762)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Protestors were cleared from a park adjoining City Hall in Oakland, CA.

The Huffington Post reports an Associated Press story that 37% of Americans support the protesters, but a Gallup poll indicates the majority of Americans don't know what the protests are about.

The guy talking in the video on the Atlanta link is as loopy in one direction as Michelle Bachman is in the other.

By New Years Day, I think the foofaraw will be over.


25 Oct 11 - 07:17 PM (#3244802)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Oh geeze... More polls... I've heard 3 (mow 4) different ones... One poll that was on NBC last night had approval of OWS in th4e high 50s...

Polls smolls...

B~


25 Oct 11 - 08:32 PM (#3244824)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox

I do not trust Soros.

It is true that he has speculated against the pound and also that he was locked in a speculation battle with the sultan of brunei who used his own fortune to prevent soros from damaging the economies of the asia pacific region for personal gain.

I remember reading about it at the time.

But this is a big red herring - OWS doesn't need Soros and I'm surprised anyone feels the need to stick up for him.

He is the 1% and is happy for the status quo to remain as it is.


25 Oct 11 - 08:36 PM (#3244827)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

I don't really give a rat's ass about George Soros... The thing is that he has become this symbol of the right that no matter what they do that is downright mean and stupid that they can't possibly as bad as Soros... I'd just like to see the right wing stand up on their policies without having to use made-up boogiemen on the left...

B~


25 Oct 11 - 09:11 PM (#3244836)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

Lox, Soros is, by no means, pure and lily-white. He came by his fortune by the usual Wall Street-style wheeling and dealing, and was once charged with insider trading, but he, like a number of billionaires—a small number, but there, nevertheless—is among those who are trying to redeem themselves by using their great wealth to do some good in the world.

Two who occur to me off the top of my head (and a litte digging will turn up a number of others) are Bill Gates, who has given away something like $32 billion dollars so far, through the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, and Ted Turner, who has given away a third of his fortune so far. When criticized by his fellow billionaires for his philanthropy (e.g., setting a good example for other billionaires), Turner responded, "For #$%&!@#!, who NEEDS that much money!??"

I was responding to Songwronger's hysterical slanders about Soros' alleged activities aiding Hitler in sending his fellow Jews to the slave labor camps and gas chambers. A little simple arithmetic would have shown him how ridiculous that charge is. Wotthehell!! Soros was barely into his teens at the time! Whoever Songwronger got that from is little more than a wad of hate and lies.

Let's take an occasional bow toward the Real World and give some credit where credit is due!!

Don Firth


25 Oct 11 - 09:15 PM (#3244837)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Songwronger

Such a mishmash of idologies and terminologies.

Does anyone here know what a democracy is? America has a constitutional republic, not a democracy. Democracy is rule by 51%. And consensus is defined as "Agreement in the judgment or opinion reached by a group as a whole."

See, that's how you know that OWS is intended to fail. Everyone involved with the program talks about reaching "consensus," but they can't even agree on what they're protesting. It has something to do with Wall Street, because that's in the name, but then there's the environment and a hundred other issues. No "consensus" will ever be reached on anything. And it's meant to be that way. The intention of the organizers is to bleed off the political fervor of the protestors so that they are no longer a menace. That "consensus" talk on day one was the first red flag for me.

OWS needs to focus on 3-4 items and distribute those nationwide. Tax financial transactions, reinstate Glass-Steagall, maybe nationalize the Federal Reserve. And trials. Lots of trials.

Soros. He's part of the 1% and his crimes are many. Why flog that horse?


25 Oct 11 - 09:21 PM (#3244840)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

YOU are the one flogging that particular horse, Songwronger.

Don Firth


25 Oct 11 - 09:22 PM (#3244842)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

At this point the only people saying OWS has to focus are those who are NOT with OWS. We got no problem with the so-called lack of focus. Why do people who--if they wanted to help would--keep saying 'focus'? We're focused already, although maybe not on the things YOU find of import.

Your fairly prescriptive 3-4 items leaves out one helluva lotta stuff that has to be corrected/rectified/recompensed. imo


25 Oct 11 - 09:24 PM (#3244844)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

I'm starting to think like Don. Not a bad thing, but scary. lol

Cross-posted with you, buddy.


25 Oct 11 - 09:36 PM (#3244846)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Don-thinking is good, brucie...

Songwronger, like his or her handle suggests, is bad...

B~


25 Oct 11 - 09:49 PM (#3244853)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

Constitutional Democracy. Even the Greeks were aware that pure democracy can quickly become tyrannical. A very good example of PURE democracy is a lynch mob. Hence, the Constitution, which not only limits the power of government, but protects the individual from the tyranny of the mob.

I have recommended this book a number of times:   First Democracy: The Challenge of an Ancient Idea, by Paul Woodruff. Despite its flaws (which many Greeks were aware of at the time), Greek democracy worked quite well; in many ways, better than ours. The final chapter in Woodruff's book bears the title, "Is America Ready for Democracy?"

You see, Songwronger, I stayed awake in my high school civics classes and kept observing and learning since then. Yes, I know what Democracy should be, and how and WHY it so frequently falls short.

As far as focus is concerned, OWS is way ahead of you.

Don Firth

P. S. Over and out. Got a busy evening ahead of me.


25 Oct 11 - 10:05 PM (#3244857)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox

Don,

You describe Soros in a way that is comparable to a benevolent dictator.

OWS has no beef with the individual, but is without any shadow of a doubt 100% opposed to the existence of any kind of dictatorship.

The very fact of his complicity in the current status quo, whether he is a benevolent or malign influence, makes him part of the 1%.

He isn't on our side until he limits his own salary, ensures all his employees have a fair wage, health insurance etc, and until he works to ensure that his profits are made without unnecessary damage to the environment, war etc.

There are no billionaires on our team - this is a permanent struggle between the interests of billionaires and the interests of the rest of us.


25 Oct 11 - 10:26 PM (#3244864)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Suffet

The media first said that Occupy Wall Street was violent, but that didn't fly. So they said it was unsanitary, but that also proved to be a lie. Then they said it was rife with anti-Semitism and focused on an obvious plant plus a couple of LaRouche followers to prove their point, but that went nowhere. Next they claimed it was just a bunch of spoiled trust fund kids acting in concert with some union goons, but that was simply laughable. Now they are so desperate they are saying that OWS is too noisy and that drum circles will spell its doom. And at the same time they are saying that it's being controlled behind the scenes by (1) Barack Obama, (2) George Soros, (3) the Muslim Brotherhood, or (4) the teachers unions. Take your pick or add your own.

To which I respond: Bull-fuckin'-shit! Even if the OWS encampment were to end this instant, there is no going back. The movement that it has inspired is here too stay. Get used to it!

--- Steve


25 Oct 11 - 10:44 PM (#3244870)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

Hear, hear, Steve! BINGO.

Lox, damned good post.



"We must hang together, gentlemen...else, we shall most assuredly hang separately." B Franklin


25 Oct 11 - 11:19 PM (#3244879)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,TIA

Songwronger-
What is your personal knowledge of OWS? Have you been out here talking to any of us? (I spent the day in Pittsburgh in the shadow of the US Steel Tower).
No, of course you have not. Your characterization is straight out of the Lamestream Faux News Right Wing False Outrage Echo Chamber.
Come talk to us when you have your own knowledge and opinions.
Buh-Bye.


25 Oct 11 - 11:22 PM (#3244880)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,TIA

Getting there and back, I talked to a flight attendant, a taxi driver, a policewoman, A Dunkin donuts server a civil engineer and a college kid who all understood the focus. Seems like it might be your problem.


25 Oct 11 - 11:31 PM (#3244884)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,TIA

Bobert-
You got drumming elbow yet?
Keep it up, but keep it healthy.
TIA


26 Oct 11 - 12:26 AM (#3244895)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Songwronger

Focus. That's good. You'd better get focused, Tia, because your capital city just filed for bankruptcy.

I'm glad to see that most OWS people are aware of the fake left/right stuff. The battle has ALWAYS been between the 1% and the 99%, not 50% vs 50%. They won't be able to pit us against one another much longer.

FDR had the answer, largely, but then the modern presidents began tearing down what he put in place.

Let's see...my most interesting discussion today was with a stockboy who told me all about Al Gore's energy-guzzling house in Tennessee. I would have argued with him, but I couldn't. I handed out some printouts about local votes coming up, and some printouts about the recent Saudi diplomat charade (the Obama administration is trying to build it up into a war with Iran, but no one's buying it)...the usual stuff. Handed out a pocket constitution, a couple of bumper stickers (Support the Troops, Bring them Home NOW). Typical day. Political activism is a way of life around here.


26 Oct 11 - 12:46 AM (#3244898)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

With all due respect, Lox, I believe you are reading more into what I wrote than I intended.

My beef was with the totally wrong and basically slanderous ideas that Songwronger was trying to peddle about both Soros and his supposed control of OWS. I never said that Soros could heal the sick, raise the dead, and walk on water. What SW said was sheer Right Wing propaganda. Soros is in hot water with the Right Wing because Soros—like Warren Buffet—reacted positively to OWS, rather than condemning it outright like the rest of those in that lofty wealth bracket.

"There are no billionaires on our team." Why, then, have Soros and Buffet made favorable comments about OWS? I don't know that they haven't offered financial support, but it they haven't, it is more than likely that they are aware that this, per se, would cast a cloud over the "grass roots" aspect of OWS and subject it to the same kind of criticism that has been levied at the Tea Party because of the involvement of the Koch Brothers. The Right Wing would leap on something like that with glee. In fact, they have already been making unsubstantiated claims along that line.

And who said anything about Soros being a "dictator" to anything, ESPECIALLY OWS?

Before ripping into Soros and ALL other wealthy people with unsubstantiated charges based on pigeon-hole type assumptions about the wealthy, you might want to read up a bit on people like Soros and Buffet from unbiased sources.

Among other things, you might want to find out why Fox News hates Soros so much.

Don Firth

P. S. To Songwronger.

" FDR had the answer, largely, but then the modern presidents began tearing down what he put in place."

Yes, FDR did have the answer. But the presidents who began tearing down what FDR put in place was,first, Ronald Reagan. And then, every REPUBLICAN president since then.


26 Oct 11 - 05:36 AM (#3244953)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox

"And who said anything about Soros being a "dictator" to anything, ESPECIALLY OWS?"

Don,

You are totally missing the point.


We live in a corporatocracy - i.e. a system where billionaires and corporations have more political clout than ordinary people because they can buy it.

OWS thinks we should be living in a democracy - i.e. a system where all people have equal political clout, regardless of whether they have money or not.

Soros, may be a saint, but that does not change the fact that he has wildly disproportionate political influence.

It is the imbalance in political enfranchisement and in wealth that is under scrutiny, not whether Soros is a nice guy.

As nice or as mean as he might be, he cannot be on 'our side' - his existence as an example of the divide between the super rich and ordinary people is a matter of concern.


26 Oct 11 - 07:30 AM (#3244990)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Wesley S

Occupy Atlanta was broken up last night by the police. The arrests were peaceful. The mayor was quoted as saying that an AK-47 was spoted in the crowd earlier in the day.


26 Oct 11 - 07:51 AM (#3244996)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,TIA

Yeas Songwronger, Harrisburg is going under financially. Are you "focussed" enought to know why, or just being snarky? Find out why, and you will see more of what OWS is about.


26 Oct 11 - 09:11 AM (#3245018)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Yeah, I find it interesting that so many of the OWS opponents haven't actually been to any of them???

No drummer's elbow, TIA, but "drummer's back"??? Different story... Don't think I'll be drumming this coming Saturday...

B;~(


26 Oct 11 - 11:19 AM (#3245067)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

"The mayor was quoted as saying that an AK-47 was spoted in the crowd earlier in the day."

Well, that should garner support from the Tea Party then. Wasn't it they who carried firearms at some of their 1% rallies a while back?


26 Oct 11 - 11:59 AM (#3245094)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.

Well, that should garner support from the Tea Party then.

Nah, to get the Tea Potty endorsement, they'd actually have to SHOOT some miserable revolutionary socialist liberal godless commie like Gabrielle Giffords.


26 Oct 11 - 12:26 PM (#3245109)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing

Who makes millionaires millionaires?. Perhaps we should ask them to stop it.


26 Oct 11 - 01:48 PM (#3245146)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

No, Lox, I'm not missing the point at all.

"As nice or as mean as he might be, he cannot be on 'our side' - his existence as an example of the divide between the super rich and ordinary people is a matter of concern."

I don't accept that. That's prejudicial thinking.

I've lived long enough to see peoples' viewpoints and values change as their circumstances change and they grow older, and sometimes, wiser. As, indeed, mine have changed and grown in the light of new knowledge and new insights. There are numerous stories of wealthy people who were hard-charging and often quite unethical when they are young, but as they grew older, their ideas—and there moral principles—altered.

History is full of examples. Without writing a whole treatise on the subject, look at the life of Andrew Carnegie, founder of U. S. Steel. Early on, he was as much a "robber baron" as many during his era—but in later life he turned his attention to philanthropy. In fact, he wrote books on the subject and urged his wealthy compatriots to turn their vast wealth into "doing real and permanent good in the world." Among his many philanthropic acts, he started a nationwide public library system. He also said, "He who dies rich dies in disgrace." In short, "Now that you have it, do some good with it."

This didn't end with Carnegie. Take a look at THIS.

I'm not about to condemn someone just because they have a lot of money. What are they DOING with that money is the important question.

Don Firth


26 Oct 11 - 03:24 PM (#3245198)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Stringsinger

It is important that OWS does not try to become a single issue movement. There are many different issues that OWS embraces and they all are contingent on one another.

America is now under siege and is headed toward an American Spring standing in solidarity with the oppressed people of Egypt, Syria, Bahrain and other countries.

Atlanta police have displayed riot squad police on horseback and 53 arrests have been made.

This Occupy Atlanta is a peaceful protest with the occupiers feeding and caring for the poor in Atlanta who have been pushed to the dark corners and are now abandoned. Mayor Kasim Reed has been disingenuous in his negotiations with the Occupiers using a kind of deception and violating his promise to allow the protesters to remain in Troy Davis Park (aka Woodruff Park) until November 7th. He has attempted to use local clergy as a dodge when they were unable to agree on how to meet. It wouldn't have mattered anyhow because the Mayor's mind was made up. This is the typical show of force that is being employed everywhere from Oakland to New York. Their statement is "We are the authorities and you people are nothing."

Free speech has been compromised in America and only given to those corporations that can pay for it.

This movement is not going away, it's just getting started.

If you don't know what OWS is about, you haven't been paying attention.


26 Oct 11 - 04:01 PM (#3245220)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox

"That's prejudicial thinking."

No it isn't - you are not responding to my point, your response is to a point that I have not made but that you have inferred.


"I'm not about to condemn someone just because they have a lot of money"

Neither am I - again - you have inferred a point that I have not made.

Soros saying he is on the side of the 99% is as absurd as a poor teaparty supporter saying he is on the same team as the koch brothers.


26 Oct 11 - 04:04 PM (#3245223)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

Strings,

As you said, OWS is not going away. The pressure to 'tell us what you want' has increased since the movement started. That is disingenuous crap. The folks asking know the answer damned well. I would counter any such question with 'instead, why don't YOU tell us why YOU think we're here'. Make them say it.

As the movement grows, it will encompass more and more people from all strata in society, from all colours of the spectrum, from all religions, from all languages, from all backgrounds and from all countries in the world where peaceful protest is allowed--a statement that carries serious overtones in itself. The human telephone is working. It is 'freeing' in a sense not to need mainstream media to give us the news. I want to hear what's going on from the Boberts, Mays, TIAs, Stringsingers--NOT Fox, MSN, NYT, etc. These people I trust. I have zero trust for the media on TV or radio. Too much spin, ya know?


26 Oct 11 - 04:07 PM (#3245224)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Yeah, I never get why the cops feel like they have to go thru the usual militaristic thing of dressing up like gladiators to arrest non-violent people who aren't going to go to war with them??? This alone should be part of what OWS is demanding... We don't need cops looking like robo-man... They are people, too, and it degrades them as people...

B~


26 Oct 11 - 04:20 PM (#3245231)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus

"Soros saying he is on the side of the 99% is as absurd as a poor teaparty supporter saying he is on the same team as the koch brothers."

Functionally, he is. It's the tea party supporters that are pushing the Republican Party into positions that benefit the Kochs mightily, to the detriment of the other 99%.


26 Oct 11 - 04:32 PM (#3245235)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

"Soros saying he is on the side of the 99% is as absurd as a poor teaparty supporter saying he is on the same team as the koch brothers."

WHY is that absurd?

You're going to have to explain that. You're condemning Soros solely on the basis that he is wealthy, without taking anything else into consideration.

Some background on Soros:
Soros, 81, is No. 7 on the Forbes 400 list with a fortune of US$22-billion, which has ballooned in recent years as he deftly responded to financial market turmoil. He has pledged to give away all his wealth, half of it while he earns it and the rest when he dies.

Like the protesters, Soros is no fan of the 2008 bank bailouts and subsequent government purchase of the toxic sub-prime mortgage assets they amassed in the property bubble.

The protesters say the Wall Street bank bailouts in 2008 left banks enjoying huge profits while average Americans suffered under high unemployment and job insecurity with little help from Washington. They contend that the richest 1% of Americans have amassed vast fortunes while being taxed at a lower rate than most people.

Soros in 2009 wrote in an editorial that the purchase of toxic bank assets would, "provide artificial life support for the banks at considerable expense to the taxpayer."

He urged the Obama administration to take bolder action, either by recapitalizing or nationalizing the banks and forcing them to lend at attractive rates. His advice went unheeded.

The Hungarian-American was an early supporter of the 2008 election campaign of Barack Obama, who will seek a second term as president in the November, 2012, election. Soros has long backed liberal causes among which are the Open Society Institute, the foreign policy think tank Council on Foreign Relations, and Human Rights Watch.
Don Firth


26 Oct 11 - 05:33 PM (#3245257)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox

"You're condemning Soros solely on the basis that he is wealthy"

You keep repeating this even though I keep repeating that i am not condemning him.

Thats fine - ok - but don't delude yourself that you have responded to my point. You are engaged in a parallel debate that has nothing to do with me.

You'll find my view in the posts I've made.

If you want to respond to it, try to understand it first and if you have criticisms, try to make them of my view rather than of your inferences.


26 Oct 11 - 05:48 PM (#3245266)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox

Don

recapitalizing the banks is not and never was the solution.

M0, M1, M2 etc


.


26 Oct 11 - 06:04 PM (#3245273)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox

.

Another useful article from Monbiot.

Money ...

.


26 Oct 11 - 06:17 PM (#3245278)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

George Soros is a side show that has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion...

He is the right wing's boogie man that they parade out every time they want to change the conversation yet again...

Ignore their tactics... We've seen them all before...

B~


26 Oct 11 - 06:30 PM (#3245283)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

Okay, Lox, you've got me buffaloed. I've looked through both our recent posts on this thread. Songwronger comes on with totally libelous material about George Soros. You jump his case. I do likewise, and after a bit of research, blow SW's slanders out of the water. Then YOU get on MY case for defending George Soros.

And you say that I don't get it. You're right. I DON'T get it.

Please explain.

Don Firth


26 Oct 11 - 06:34 PM (#3245285)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

The Wall Street protesters are a sideshow.


26 Oct 11 - 06:48 PM (#3245289)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: bobad

The governor of the Bank of Canada doesn't think they are a sideshow - he says that they are 'entirely constructive'

Globe & Mail article


26 Oct 11 - 07:43 PM (#3245311)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox

The violence shown against them by the government shows that they are no side show.

The very nature of the OWS message is right at the heart of current politics.

Thats not a sideshow.


Don - I don't have a problem with you either.

Soros point of view would be of no significance to you and me if he wasn't a billionaire.

He wouldn't be any more of a useful ally than you or anyone else on here if he were not a billionaire.

So he is only useful to this conversation insofar as he has power and influence way way above and beyond the power and influence of the average citizen.

The position of OWS is that no private individual should have greater or lesser political power than any other whether they are a billionaire or homeless.

Rallying behind the billionaire to unseat the corporatocracy is therefore a contradiction.

If he wants to come and rally down on the street, let him come and be welcome - but using his financial clout to affect a favourable political outcome is doing exactly the thing that OWS is against.

If he then listens to the demands, and cleans up the act of the many business interests he has, and ensures all his employees are paid a fair wage, and that they receive proper health care, and if he then agrees to pay himself a wage that is comparable to that of his employees, (rather than 'selflessly' only paying himself billions until his death - at which point he will gladly sacrifice his wealth) then he can claim to be with us.

But you know what, I don't see that happening any time soon - I don't think he'd want to let go of his privilege.

He is the beneficiary of a corrupt system and he continues to be complicit in it even though it is plain that for every billionaire made, a million people fall into slavery.


26 Oct 11 - 07:47 PM (#3245314)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox

"Don - I don't have a problem with you either."

To clarify - my posts do not attack Soros character - or you - they explain your misconception about what a struggle for democracy both seeks and entails.


26 Oct 11 - 07:55 PM (#3245318)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Yo, Don and Lox...

Chill... Ya'll are each on the correct side of the truth... Leave it alone...

B~


26 Oct 11 - 08:27 PM (#3245334)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox

Sideshow?

Then why this?

violence.


26 Oct 11 - 08:28 PM (#3245337)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

Fair enough, Lox and Bobert. But let me be clear here. I have no misconceptions about what a struggle for democracy both seeks and entails.

Soros has stated that he understands, agrees with, and approves of OWS. As far as I know (and contrary to claims of hysterical Right-Wingers), Soros has not tried to lead or fund OWS, and other than verbal support, he's staying clear. Wisely, knowing that to do otherwise would only give ammunition to the Right and lower OWS to the level of the Tea Party.

He HAS, on the other hand, leaned on his fellow Fat Cats to follow his example of philanthropic giving--in the manner of Carnegie, and more recently, Gates, Turner, and a few others.

Sure, he's one of the 1%, but I have a hard time characterizing him as "The Enemy."

As long as he just stays out of the way.

Okay?

Don Firth


26 Oct 11 - 08:31 PM (#3245338)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

Amd tp reiterate, my mentioning Soros at all was only in response to Songwronger's vicious slander of him.

Don Firth


26 Oct 11 - 08:33 PM (#3245342)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Reality is that Soros could have used his vast wealth to buy elections like the Koch brothers did... He didn't... Ain't his bag... Ain't what or who he is...

Yeah, he's part of the 1% but has put himself out as the rebel within the 1% for suggesting that the 1% be taxed at the levels of his secretary... Horrors!!!

Now back to OWS... Seems that some local governments want to bust some balls...

B~


26 Oct 11 - 08:40 PM (#3245345)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Thanks for the link, Lox... I am afraid that this is going to get repeated... I hate it... Bad image... With all the tear gas and all it leave the impression that OWS is in riot mode when they are absolutely not... What we are seeing is Boss Hog, like Mubarak's pigs riding thru non-violent people, beating them to create another scene for their right wing supporters...

Watch for more mid-night raids becasue the smoke makes it look like there is resistance...

I hope I am wrong...

B~


26 Oct 11 - 09:55 PM (#3245365)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Songwronger

Okay, I've been lagging on responding to things here.

Vicious slander of Soros? No, I think he's a saint. Saint George of the rose petaled flatulence. He stole 1.1 billion from British retirement plans and then donated 100 million to charities. What a guy. How generous of him to fork over, like, NINE PERCENT of the loot in order to show us what a good guy he is. I wonder how the Brits he killed by driving them into poverty would feel about his philanthropy? They should THANK him for donating 9% of what he stole from them. They were going to die anyway and someone would get the money, so HE took it. The excuse worked for him as a teenaged Nazi collaborator, so why change an excuse that works? Right now he's attempting to destroy the eurodollar. Well, SOMEONE'S going to do it, so why not him? Sniff the scent of roses in his passing and be THANKFUL.

Ted Turner and Bill Gates. Yes, we'll just strike them off the 1% list. Gates and his buddies are doing such charitable work in Africa. They love those little black babies so much.

Someone back there questioned my figures on the Bush/Obama bailout/stimulus scams. Here's an article from a couple of years ago:

We were told that the first bailout under Bush administration officials would cost roughly 800 billion. Then, Obama pushed another stimulus package as soon as he took office, costing another trillion or so.

Thus, according to the estimates of Obama and his 'economic advisers,' the total cost to taxpayers would be roughly 1.8 trillion for the 2 bailouts.

They lied. The actual cost so far is over 4 trillion, and that's just for starters.

Lo and behold, the government's own Inspector-General that oversees spending reported yesterday that the cost to the taxpayers for these bailouts will reach 24 trillion dollars and counting!


http://www.examiner.com/conservative-in-columbia/obama-s-gov-t-bailouts-reach-24-trillion-and-counting

And the 75 trillion dollar bailout of Bank of America's derivatives debt. They're going to shift that debt to the FDIC (which insures losses). One deal and each American will assume an additional tax liability of, hold on, let me do the math... 330 million Americans, 75 trillion dollars divided by 330 million... Aw shit, I'll have to get another job.

http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0oG7netsahOlCkAxJlXNyoA?p=bank%20of%20america%20fdic%2075%20trillion&fr2=sb-top&fr=yfp-t-70


27 Oct 11 - 01:40 AM (#3245391)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

SW's propensities have already been exposed, so I won't bother to take it any further.

Don Firth


27 Oct 11 - 08:32 AM (#3245485)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Suffet

Just keep in mind that Occupy Wall Street is not about Good Guys versus Bad Guys, it is not about George Soros versus the Koch brothers, it is not even about Left versus Right, and it is certainly not about Democrats versus Republicans. It is instead about how the increasingly unequal distribution of economic wealth and power have corrupted our political system, have undermined our democracy, and have threatened our republic.

--- Steve


27 Oct 11 - 09:05 AM (#3245499)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

Hear, hear, Steve.


27 Oct 11 - 10:33 AM (#3245542)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Yup, Steve, that's it in a nutshell..

B~


27 Oct 11 - 11:40 AM (#3245585)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton

The unequal distribution of wealth and power are part and parcel of the Capitalist economic and social system......if you fix it, you kill it.

We in the West are sinking rapidly while living standards in,the East will rise, till they become unsustainable....Its already happening in China where the government are faced with turning their population into consumers as Western markets fail.
They will see that using the Capitalist system can be a double edged weapon.

WE are fucked pure and simple, even those with a little money in the bank or a retirement pension, are being robbed every day by the system as inflation rises.
We need to stop thinking in terms of who is better off than the next guy, construct a society where the important issues like health,and education are properly funded as public services and develope a sense of responsibility for how we conduct ourselves

Non of us are owed a living by anyone in this world and the sooner we start to realise that the better.
Capitalism is above all, about scamming as much as possible for ourselves and as someone above said, giving back a few crumbs to make us look decent.....we will never get a new mindset till we ditch it.


27 Oct 11 - 12:09 PM (#3245601)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox

Well well well ...

Who says these protests are ineffective?

Two nights ago the mayor of oakland was trying to force protesters off the streets with plastic bullets.

Today she has made a total U-Turn, and says she is on the protesters side ...

The largest unified political ,ovement in the history of the world continues to gather momentum!

Oakland U-Turn

Lets face it - she's trying to save her skin.


You gotta love social media folks!!


27 Oct 11 - 12:24 PM (#3245609)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

The City of Oakland may be a bit worried they'll lose another lawsuit because their cops got a little outta hand. Same sort of crap cost them two million in 2003. Of course now the Mayor and the Chief of Police want to talk because they are both part of the 99%. Makes a guy feel warm and fuzzy all over.

Thanks for the link, Lox.


27 Oct 11 - 12:27 PM (#3245614)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk

Bravo!


27 Oct 11 - 12:42 PM (#3245624)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Sorry, Ake, but the kind of revolution you want is the kind that John Lennon was referring to when he wrote "Count me out"...

Capitalism worked fine for decades... Might of fact it worked well right up until Ronald Reagan was elected and Reagan was duped by his corrupt advisers to use the government to tilt the playing field toward "management"... Up until then government had seen it role as an arbitrator...

We need to do a couple things here... We need to "repair" the damage that the government/industrialist have done and we need to get back to a balance between labor and management... In the short term that is going to mean that the government is going to *look* as if it is favoring labor because of the repairs but with OWS the American people will accept that... The danger is going to far...

BTW, OWS needs to also start doing a better job across the board in talking with the police... I have been trying to make as much eye contact as possible with the cops and have gone out of my way to engage them in light conversation... I know that lots of other OWS folks have, as well, but I'd like to see more of it...

B~


27 Oct 11 - 12:52 PM (#3245631)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

I have worked with police officers in a few capacities, and they are just people like the rest of us. For the most part, good people.

I think too many get put in positions for which they are not trained, get given ill-defined assignments, react as people and not cops, then everyone wonders wtf happened.

In '67 I was talking with a National Guardsman at People's Park. Nice guy. My age, and because we'd had a shared experience in terms of the army--both reserve--we were able to communicate. We were on opposite sides of a tornado fence and some razor wire. Before I parted I suggested he put his rifle on safe. He thanked me saying, I don't want to shoot anyone. I said I knew that, take care, and moved on.

These people ain't our enemies and we shouldn't perceive them as such. As Churchill said, jaw jaw is better than war war.


27 Oct 11 - 01:11 PM (#3245636)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk

When people get scared, things can fall apart in a moment. That happens to cops and national guardsmen too, just like it happens to the rest of us.


27 Oct 11 - 01:41 PM (#3245652)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

Bingo, LH, bingo.


27 Oct 11 - 02:03 PM (#3245675)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox

And sometimes the cops are assholes - like the one who, when a group of peacful protesters ran to help a man who was lying on the ground with a fractured skull where a tear gas canister was fired into his face at close range, lobbed a flash grenade into their midst deliberately.

Sometimes its poor training - sometimes its contempt.


27 Oct 11 - 02:46 PM (#3245713)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

That's what I am talking about, Lox... If we make more of an effort to humanize the cops then maybe more of them will get it... Fighting cops is bad imagery for OWS... This is a lesson I learned in the 60s.. Everyone has a job to do here... Let's do it with a little humanity... I mean, the OWS has an opportunity here to lead by example... We know that Boss Hog is going to order his cops to be assholes but if we make those human connections (like brucie did back in '76) then it's going to make it real hard for the cops to think they have some right to bust heads...

B~


27 Oct 11 - 03:19 PM (#3245739)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

Ayn Rand and Karl Marx (now, THERE'S a pair!!) will never forgive me for saying this, but historically,
REGULATED Capitalism
works just fine!

Ayn Rand wanted Capitalism with no regulation whatsoever. Karl Marx wanted no Capitalism at all, but plenty of regulation.

Like parentheses, between FDR and the New Deal = (, and Ronald Reagan = ), regulated Capitalism produced a fairly high level of general prosperity in this country. Take a good look at what FDR did and what Reagan UNdid, and things get pretty clear.

History.

Don Firth


27 Oct 11 - 04:09 PM (#3245775)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Funny, Don...

Maybe someone needs to write a play about a conversation between Marx and Rand... I'd go see it...

B~


27 Oct 11 - 04:20 PM (#3245786)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton

How can you contrast Western society in the 50's, with the make up of society today?

If "regulated" Capitalism had any chance of providing for the populace in the 21st century.....we would have "regulated" Capitalism.

I suppose the string pullers recognised long ago that this system is unsustainable and decided to "go for broke"

Making their fortunes, and convincing the rest of us that the crumbs would never stop falling.

Isn't it about time that we realised that the Emperor has no clothes?


27 Oct 11 - 04:21 PM (#3245789)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

In simple terms, Ake, what do you suggest?


27 Oct 11 - 04:33 PM (#3245805)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

Ake:    "How can you contrast Western society in the 50's, with the make up of society today?"

How can you NOT?

A play about a conversation between Karl Marx and Ayn Rand? Now, THAT would be a real rip-snorter!!

Don Firth


27 Oct 11 - 05:06 PM (#3245822)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Face it... Pure capitalism really doesn't exist any more than pure socialism or communism... What most societies have are hybrid systems with a mix of various pure economic models... I think that is probably the most efficient and fair as long as corruption doesn't get the best of the hybrid, as has happened in a lot of western democracies...

Reaganomics isn't just America's problem... It seems that it has taken it's toll on the UK (Thatchernomics) and other European countries, as well... Same beast...

That's why OWS is global...

B~


27 Oct 11 - 05:48 PM (#3245839)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox

Marx wasn't a politician.

He was an economist and and observer.

All he did was predict that one day the divide between the working classes and the ruling classes and capitalists, would get so big that the working classes would refuse to play ball any more until they got proper recompense for their efforts.

In a world with poor communication and plenty of places to go to find willing slaves, that wasn't happening.

Capitalists could just blackmail their workers into accepting poor conditions with the threat of just taking the work elsewhere.

However, in a world where the working classes have access to global social media, it might be that his predictions are beginning to come true in front of our eyes.

Regardless of your political world view, it would be foolish of anybody to underestimate the significance of social media in the political landscape.

It is not just a fad that will be gone in a few months, it is a permanent fixture in history and the changes it has made to global society are also permanent.

Its biggest best and most important legacy is the repoliticazation of society.

No longer do people feel voiceless and insignificant. We all feel like we have an audience of millions.

The internet and social media are a petri dish where ideas grow and multiply at incredible speeds and are replaced at similar speeds.

As a consequence, society is maturing very quickly, and communicating and learning in an unprecedented way.

The world is becoming democratized whether it likes it or not.

And we are only just seeing the first tiny glimmer of its potential.

How it will pan out is of course a mystery - in London we saw riots and looting - in egypt the overthrow of a puppet.

It could result in nationalist isolationism, or global fraternity. It could result in WWIII, or it could result in a new age of understanding.

But whatever happens won't be at the behest of the mainstream media or corporate propaganda - at leat not to the same extent as when they controlled 3 hours of our in home activity and information on TV every night.

Its great - its beautiful - Long live democracy!!


27 Oct 11 - 07:24 PM (#3245886)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

Lox raises a salient point: TV is NOT your friend.

Yes, many will come back with "I only watch nature shows" or "I only watch science shows" etc. However, those three people in America notwithstanding, TV is a form of socialization that sets unrealistic expectations in a world with too many of them already. TV is the most important tool in the arsenal of those who wish to control other's thoughts.

"The medium is the message" was stated by Marshall McLuhan (another Canuck) back in the 1960s (I think). The following link renders a good article on McLuhan's foresight and prognostication regarding media in its varied forms.

http://individual.utoronto.ca/markfederman/article_mediumisthemessage.htm

Worth a read, imo. YMMV.


28 Oct 11 - 01:20 AM (#3245973)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk

Right on, 999. That's why I basically gave up on TV about 20 years ago, and have turned instead to the Internet...a medium where I am not a passive receiving sponge sitting helplessly on the coach, but an active participant who is taking part in the dialogue. TV isn't a dialogue. It's a corporate monologue aimed at billions of hapless "consumers", and it has been used primarily to manufacture conformity and unconscious consent to marketing schemes and political propaganda. TV is virtually dead as far as I'm concerned. I neither want it nor need it when I have access to the Internet and printed material (books, magazines, and newspapers).


28 Oct 11 - 04:50 AM (#3246003)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,cujimmy

So everyone is sharing in the Austerity - check this out

http://news.google.co.uk/news/story?pz=1&cf=all&ned=uk&hl=en&topic=h&ncl=dRgGo-uj-il-M2M4ecqcxdN_WwhNM


28 Oct 11 - 08:24 AM (#3246050)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Hide from your TV...

B;~)


28 Oct 11 - 09:58 AM (#3246084)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

TV is the slow method of having a frontal lobotomy.


28 Oct 11 - 10:04 AM (#3246087)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than frontal lobotomy...

Nevermind...

No OWS for me this weekend... Last weekends drumming got my poor ol' back messed up... Gotta do a little re-engineering on my drum straps...

BTW, the Iraq vet, Scott Olsen, who was seriously injured by the Oakland cops, has been upgraded to "fair" condition...

Meanwhile, here in Charlotte, the City Council is working on rewriting the city's ordinances that would allow them to evict OccupyCharlotte...

Normal... Seems that is the new strategy by Boss Hog...

B~


28 Oct 11 - 10:17 AM (#3246095)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

There'll be lots of that, Bobert. Reminds me of Orwell's Animal Farm. When the law doesn't do what ya want, change the law. However, the base is covered for the BIG MONEY folks:

"United States

The principle of the Riot Act was incorporated into the first Militia Act (1 Stat. 264) of 8 May 1792. The Act's long title was "An act to provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the laws of the Union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions".
Section 3 of the Militia Act gave power to the President to issue a proclamation to "command the insurgents to disperse, and retire peaceably to their respective abodes, within a limited time", and authorised him to use the militia if they failed to do so. Substantively identical language is presently codified at chapter 15 of title 10, United States Code.[13]


To this day many jurisdictions that have inherited the tradition of English common law and Scots law still employ statutes that require police or other executive agents to deliver an oral warning, much like the Riot Act, before an unlawful public assembly may be forcibly dispersed.
Because the authorities were required to read the proclamation that referred to the Riot Act before they could enforce it, the expression "to read the Riot Act" entered into common language as a phrase meaning "to reprimand severely", with the added sense of a stern warning. The phrase remains in everyday use in the English language."

From Wikipedia


28 Oct 11 - 10:50 AM (#3246114)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Sawzaw

A nugget of wisdom in a Bobert stinkbomb:

"The only way in which society can be changed in a meaningful way is through unity and in our case that means we shall almost certainly never see it....but our grandchildren might!
It means finding common ground with the people who are not politically motivated, who want a quiet life, a reasonable standard of living, a little freedom and a sensible lifestyle."

Just say no to tribal politics. Find common ground. Look for things to agree on.


28 Oct 11 - 10:56 AM (#3246118)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Sawzaw

"Anyone have current info, please add it until we start getting even more thru the [non existant] news embargo"

You are in good company Comerade Bobert

American Communist Party: Occupy Chicago fills the jail with inspiration and solidarity
by: John Bachtell October 20 2011

CHICAGO -- On Saturday Oct. 15, I was one of the 200 occupiers who were arrested standing up for free speech and assembly and against corporate greed, after Occupy Chicago attempted to establish an encampment at the edge of Grant Park.

For nearly a month this movement has been occupying the corner of Jackson and LaSalle streets in the heart of the city's financial district. However, city ordinances make it impossible to stay overnight there so protesters sleep in a nearby church.

Under a crisp cool night sky a spirited march of 4,000 strong marched from the financial district to Grant Park. As waves streamed into the pavilion at the corner of Michigan and Congress, a giant American flag was lofted and passed over the heads of protesters.

While tents were being set up an impromptu rally took place. It began with the prescient but eerie audio clip of Charlie Chaplin who played the Jewish barber in his 1940 film, "The Great Dictator," the first major feature film of its period to bitterly satirize Nazism and Adolf Hitler.

"You, the people have the power - the power to create machines. The power to create happiness! You, the people, have the power to make this life free and beautiful, to make this life a wonderful adventure," the recording crackled over the park.

"Then, in the name of democracy, let us use that power! Let us all unite! ... Let us fight to free the world, to do away with national barriers, to do away with greed, with hate and intolerance. Let us fight for a world of reason, a world where science and progress will lead to all men's happiness."

First to address the crowd was Armando Robles, President of UE Local 1110 and a leader of the four-day Republic Windows and Doors occupation in 2008 . Then greetings were delivered from labor and community groups including the Chicago Teachers Union, Teamsters, Steelworkers, immigrant's rights and peace activists and the Communist Party.

Many blasted Wall Street and the banks for ruining the lives of millions and corrupting democracy. They spoke proudly of the new movement sweeping the country and how they were determined to take a stand.

The Chicago Police Department surrounded the protest with officers and, at 11 p.m., announced we were in violation of a city ordinance that prohibits being in the park after hours.

Awaiting arrest, the mood among the overwhelmingly young protesters was defiant and festive. At times the crowd sang in unison, including labor and folk songs. Everyone seemed to know the words to Woody Guthrie's "This Land is Your Land."

Protesters linked arms and ringed the tents. At 1:30 a.m., after repeated warnings, the police began to arrest us and tear down the hastily constructed tent village. Everyone remained calm, strengthened by the understanding we were going to jail for a worthy cause.

While the arrests were taking place we began singing the National Anthem. It reminded me of the Madison, Wis., protests earlier this year where I witnessed 5000 people sing the National Anthem in the capitol rotunda.

It was an electrifying moment in both places and enough to bring tears to your eyes. The message was clear - we love our country and refuse to allow it to be ruined. This was real patriotism on display, fighting for a real people's democracy and reclaiming the American Dream.

I'll never forget the look in the eyes of one young woman as an officer asked her if she was ready for arrest. "Yes, she said serenely. "Please arrest me." Her eyes sparkled with fearlessness and purpose.

The police separated men and women and filled a Chicago transit bus with men. We were all taken to the police station at 18th and State.

As I was being processed, an officer asked why a "boomer" like me was protesting. I told him, "I'm here to end corporate greed and make the country better."

"You're going to have to end capitalism to do that," he said. I nodded and replied, "If that's what it takes."

Another African American officer sympathized with the protest. "If it weren't for the 1960's I wouldn't be here today," he said.

We were led past holding cells crammed with protesters. A loud cheer and raised fists greeted everyone who passed.

I was placed in Holding Cell C and welcomed by the 25 others there. At 55 years old I was by far the old man of the cell. Most were in their twenties and thirties.

After a short while we settled in for the rest of the night and got talking. Someone began by giving the clearest explanation I have heard of what a "derivative" is, how Wall Street "gambling" crashed the economy and then how the victims were blamed. Sometimes the best education takes place in a jail cell!

Then we got to introductions. Everyone listened respectfully as we told our stories of what we did and what brought us to Occupy Chicago. There were young factory workers, students, a professor, an aspiring comic and union members from Unite Here, SEIU and the Teamsters.

This was the first civil disobedience arrest for most and for some it was their first participation in an Occupy Chicago protest. All spoke eloquently about how corporate greed had impacted their lives.

Our discussions were far ranging. Toward morning we discussed how to diversify the movement and debated whether the Occupy Chicago movement should consider police part of the 99% or just an arm of the state.

The mood throughout the night was joyous, born of solidarity in battle. I can only imagine what it must have been like during the Civil Rights movement when thousands "gladly went to jail" for freedom.

Finally, after being fingerprinted, issued I-bonds (someone joked it was a new Apple product) and assigned a court date, we gathered our belongings and were released. We exited the police station into a dreary Sunday morning rain only to be warmed by a cheering crowd who had waited all night for our release.

There's not one of us who wouldn't do it again, and most likely we will, to end corporate greed and make our country right.


28 Oct 11 - 11:12 AM (#3246125)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

There is a skunk that wanders by almost every night making his rounds. I call him Charley. (That's also my name for the jays, squirrels, chipmunks, mourning doves, sparrows, nuthatches, chickadees and any dog or cat I don't know.)

Charley the Skunk is a nice guy. Let him know you're nearby and he moves a bit further away. He has never threatened to spray me, and that includes the night I was taking a pee on a bush and he passed about five feet behind me. I spoke to him as I always do: 'Charley, don't get excited.' Charley didn't get excited. Long as he knows yer there, he's cool.

Charley cleaned out a yellow jacket (ground bee) nest a while back thus earning my gratitude. When he hurt one of his front paws a while ago I left food for him out back to make his existence easier. Sometimes friendships have to be determined by common ground, other times by compassion. I like Charley, and he seems to tolerate my presence more than he does the neighbourhood cats who receive his spray on occasion.

Charley and I are not friends in the sense he's welcome to come have supper in the living room, but neither are we enemies just because we view life differently or are different ourselves.

His paw seems to have healed and the limp is gone. I don't feed him anymore. As I said, he's a nice guy.


28 Oct 11 - 02:30 PM (#3246206)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

From Michael C. Ruppert, who is the former LA Police Officer in the video below:

"There is a reason why all of the sudden brutality against Occupy Wall Street has erupted. This was coming and several of our members recognized it and have been talking about it for days on our pages. Bank of America has transferred $75 trillion worth of fraudulent derivatives (mortgage-backed securities) onto the b...alance sheet of its FDIC-insured bank knowing full-well that the derivatives are going to default. The Federal Reserve will print enough debt to cover that which you and I will have to, but never be able to, repay. This is the corrupt banking system's way of absolutely gutting the United States economy and government. This doesn't even approach being legal from any direction or via any argument. This is open criminality that is even boastful in its brazenness.

I am told that the Chief of Police in Santa Rosa, California has issued a statement declaring that any Occupy Santa Rosa encampment in place will be removed "by whatever force necessary". This will probably take place in the early-morning hours of Sunday, October 30. I have also learned that a contingent from Santa Rosa PD participated in the brutal attacks on Occupy Oakland over the last few days. I believe that I am one of many reasons they wish to make an example of Occupy Santa Rosa. They know I will be there and I believe they will be looking for me. I have promised to be in the encampment that night. I will be front and center, in solidarity with every other occupier.

I am asking any Collapsenet members, or any military or law enforcement veterans who feel the call to join me. You can find out more here. As I predicted, the next ugly phase of collapse has arrived... right on time. -- Do not be afraid. It will not endure. But it will be very bloody and very painful.

Prepare. Prepare. Prepare." -- Michael C Ruppert.

A Message To All Police Officers from Occupy Wall Street


28 Oct 11 - 07:13 PM (#3246366)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

First of all, thanks Lizzie, for that link... I watched every 19 plus minutes of it and was thinking...

....geeze, wouldn't it be nice to have 1/100th of the $$$$ that the Koch brothers and health insurance companies used to organize the Tea Party to put together a 30 second ad with this guy and show it over and over this Sunday during the football games that most cops will be watching or hearing about...

B~


29 Oct 11 - 07:28 AM (#3246589)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Mayet

Is this the same conspiracy-theory 'journalist' Michael Ruppert who claims the US government, and Wall Street colluded with the perpetrators of 9/11.... just asking

I support the 'Occupy' movement but I'm not too fond of self promoters and people who jump on bandwagons.
There is plenty to be outraged about over the increasing inequality globally where we see executives wages growing at an immoral pace while workers wages are remaining frozen or even falling in real terms without 'X files nonsense'

Off topic but, now that Ruppert's contribution has been added, can someone please explain to me exactly what Ruppert's CollapseNet and the 'lifeboat movement' is.

On his site it says
"CollapseNet is now offering the chance to make 20% commissions on new memberships. This program is designed to put money in your pocket for helping CollapseNet grow and encouraging those around you to work on their own Lifeboats.
CollapseNet needs to grow to get Mike Ruppert's message to as many people as possible."

"Those for whom $10 a month is a hardship have the option of bartering your way in."

And….
"CollapseNet's Affiliate Program is NOT a Ponzi scheme, but rather a single-tier commission-based system"

?


29 Oct 11 - 11:12 AM (#3246681)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Stringsinger

"The police are just doing their job." Haven't we heard that song before? "I was just following orders." Does that sound familiar? Anyone remember the Nurenberg Trials.

Time to reassess who the 99%'ers are and who works for the corporate state.


29 Oct 11 - 11:13 AM (#3246682)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

This video is of a great American. I think y'all should be happy you have him. Too bad there's not more like him. A Senate address by Bernie Sanders in 2010.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=JXzZz0_rIzY


29 Oct 11 - 11:45 AM (#3246702)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Stringsinger

Bernie is great!

There is a new question. Are the police part of the 99'ers or puppets of a corporate state?

You have to ask.

Remember the old cliche "I was just doing my job."

What is their job? (No longer to serve and protect unless it's the corporations that pay them off).


29 Oct 11 - 12:27 PM (#3246727)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Etan Ben-Ami

On October 28, 2011, the General Assembly of Occupy Wall Street in New York adopted a new structure for all operational decision making: effectively a new constitution. This puts most of the resources and the good name of OWS in the hands of a 'Spokes Council' designed by a vanguard committee: the Structure Working Group.

I believe the plan is seriously flawed. Though there is no reason to doubt the honesty and integrity of the members of the Structure Working Group, I think the new process could easily be subverted or corrupted. I tried to block it, citing both ethical and safety considerations.

The Spokes Council proposal includes provisions that place disproportionate influence in the hands of persons belonging to small working groups and caucuses, especially if they belong to several. They can add to their influence through classic political machinations like vote swapping.

The Spokes Council can also change its own charter and process of decision making without the approval of the General Assembly. Hypothetically, it could do away with consensus decision making, appointing a steering committee and officers.

The Spokes Council proposal does away with the protective mechanism of individual 'blocks' to consensus: a situation in which an individual raises serious ethical or safety concerns based on their perception of a proposal. (It allows blocks, but only if a working group or caucus creates a block through consensus within itself first. This is unlikely to ever occur.)

This plan was put forward as living and working conditions on Liberty Plaza began to decline. Simpler plans, involving less structural change, were never considered as alternatives at the General Assembly. Several of its proponents claimed the Spokes Council proposal was the only solution for efficient and effective management of worsening problems on the Plaza.

This was well received by occupiers who are frustrated with the difficulty of working together effectively. Prior to this proposal, any substantive action (eg purchasing storage bins) required the submission and approval of a proposal to the entire General Assembly.

The failure to fix this problem with simpler changes is highly suspect. Less ambitious changes would have enabled effective action before things declined to their present state. This would have led to a more careful examination of such sweeping changes in process. In short: they promised to make the trains run on time -- and the people said 'do it'.

At this time, a council which has never met, and which can change its own rules of process without real accountability, has been empowered to make spending decisions from a $500K pool of contributions to Occupy Wall Street.

I blocked this proposal with a careful analysis of its provisions, noting both safety and ethical concerns. The new 'constitution' was passed over my objections. I am taking the only ethical position I know, which is to dissociate myself from Occupy Wall Street.

I am now exploring the possibility of organizing a new social media project for wider-scale public involvement. It will address the issues of economic inequity and undemocratic corporate influence from the perspective of ordinary people in everyday life. Stay tuned, and let me know if you are interested in becoming an online activist.

-- Etan Ben-Ami, etan.benami@gmail.com


29 Oct 11 - 12:58 PM (#3246745)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Donuel

The think tank song

The think tanks, bought by Wall St., told the people
You can all have loans
For houses
That you all want
To buy.
[As above} The think tanks, bought by Wall St. told the people - Get a second loan - Cuz your house has value - to sell.
The think tanks, bought by Wall St., told the people - Buy derivatives - For profits - That no one can
Explain.
The think tanks, bought by Wall St., told the people    - We need all your cash - for bailouts – its all your fault – deadbeat.
The think tanks, bought by Wall St., told the people - Blame the immigrants – blame liberals – blame Obama – not US.
The think tanks, bought by Wall St., told the people - You can't have any – of all those – entitlements – no more.

The High Court, bought by Wall St., told the people – that Bush beat Gore – so go home – the election - is done.
The High Court, bought by Wall St., told the people – that corporations – are people – that have more rights – than you.
The High Court, bought by Wall St., told the people – that money is speech – so shut up – it's the money – that talks.
The High Court, bought by Wall St., told the people – unlimited cash – will elect – our candidates – HA HA!

The Honest, taught the people, de moc racy – was vanquished by rich – for profits - far too large – to spend.   THE END



This can be sung as Tip Toe Thru the Tulips or a blues standard.
Even Joe HIll wil work with minor lyric deits.


29 Oct 11 - 09:22 PM (#3246789)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Yo, Etan,

You have no credibility here... You sound like a right wing corporatist who is out to promote diversion and right winged crap...

Like, who are you??? Why are you here now??? What is your history here???

B~


29 Oct 11 - 10:18 PM (#3246799)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Donuel

I'm Donuel the savant of the midwest.


Here is my Signs of the TImes:
5 signs I've seen and the rest are originals

Free BS (bumper sticker) if you find my name.


Here is my OWS mantra chant courtesy of Johm Lennon's give peace a chance...

Wall St is saying, Pay all my debts
All we are saying, is thats not our debt.





That really sums it up in a Richard Feynman singularity of truth.


It was Henry Paulson who as CEO of Goldman Sachs in Aprill 2004 who bribed and extorted 5 SEC regulators to, for the first time, allow all banks to borrow unlimited money with no collateral. That meeting in the Woolworth building was GROUND ZERO for the deliberate global economic crises that would leave only 5 banks standing and 400 people owning the majority of everything there is to own in the world.

Paulson along with the other 7 Wall St. corporations laughed in the meeting at the mere suggestion that anything could go wrong.
From that time forward, The banks were never so much in control and simultaneously OUT OF CONTROL.

They ended up borrowing imaginary money to make bets on the failure of the United States and various targeted companies by inventing Credit default swaps and buying insurance that certain corporations would fail. How could they know who would fail? They had several weapons to guarantee the failure of their target bets. Rumoer, shorting their stock and hostile takeovers are but a few weapons.

They borrowed somewhere between 70 to 90 TRILLION DOLLARS to bet at the casino of their own making.
To get an idea, If you stiffed a million dollars in a piggy bank every single day for 2,476 years you will have saved one trillion dollars.

THAT IS THEIR DEBT, it is not yours, they have hypnotized you with media into believing that the debt is now on your back.

The answer is to confiscate the money of the secret Hedge Fund billionaires to cover their gambling losses and seek retribution if they can not.

The rich do not want to lose their fortune garnered by fraud, loans, bribery and extortion. They want you to pay it to keep their gaming rooms open and finish the next hand.

Bankrupt and foreclose on the super wealthy, THAT IS UNHEARD OF!!
well it is not. We did it to losers in war and losers in the 30's crash.


They have tried to distract us all with trying to make this crises all about the sub prime mortgage fraud. They blame us for ever taking their loans. GET THIS, even if we were to blame for their bundling of bad mortgages and selling them like a corn commodity,
that whole thing is only a TENTH of the entire Wall St. gambling losses.

Peter Sellers: Does your derivitive bite?
clerk: no
Sellers: CHOMP ow ow ow I thought you said your derivitive did not bite?
clerk: thats not my derivitive.

In Feynman succinctness...Its not your debt.



The new trillionaires have your money, what can be found of it.

That is one of the 3 great Wall St. lies

1 YOUR money is gone.
2 It is perfectly legal.
3 Regulate? Just trust us.

so, what ever happened on Wall st ain't capitalism.

To this day there is not one aspect of Wall st that isn;t tainted by fraud, lies, cheats, theft, extortion, bribery and when need be...murder.

The open secret is that the stock market is computerized under the direct control of Hedge fund managers who can cause the market to rise or fall by 300 points in less than 10 minutes. They are doing, what I was taught in my early days, somthing called churning but on a market wide basis. PErhaps you remember the day they tested their new software and no one could explain how or why the market fell by 300 points and rebounded in 15 minutes.


Remember, its not your debt. It was an invention by Wall St.

IF anyone had the balls to start the confiscation process of the several hundred who gained the most by fraud in Wall st and the opaque


29 Oct 11 - 10:27 PM (#3246801)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Donuel

continuing from prior post ... Hedge funds, which are more secret than gov atomic labs, that person would be a hero of the century.

Wall st is saying
Pay all our debts

All we are saying
is thats not our debt.


I for one will not accept their premise that we are either to blame or respondsible for their gambling debts.

There are simple solutions to the problem but it does involve a group of wealthy people who today have more resources than 1,000 James Bond meglomaniac Villians all rolled into one.

These folks have their own Radio TV, Satillites and access to government branchs of the CIA, DOD and State Dept.


IF you still think that BIlderberg meetings for billionaires was not conspiratorial to the ends we see today, I have time share in Florida for you.

Good luck, do the good work, and get your facts straight.


29 Oct 11 - 10:46 PM (#3246803)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Donuel

PIGS

P ortugal
I taly
G reece
S pain

are the next to seek immunity and bail outs.

Guess who helped Greece lie on their application to the EU with accounting fraud? Henry Paulson of Goldman Sachs.

The breadth and scope of what GOldman did internationally, and then place bets on the assured failures of their set up victims/marks is beyond belief, but its here. All the evil in the mud hatched out and the mutant creatures spawned look like their daddy, Goldman Sachs and thier cronies and minions..

Perhaps you have seen the prime time movies about Wall St, some depicting Henry Paulson and the usual gang of gangsters.

I assure you he is not the genial gentle concerned person that the actors depicted. Nor are the others. First they laughed at you as bottom feeders and peasants and unwashed. Then they feared for their own fortunes as in fighting with Lehman led to the house of cards fall in a week.


I will forgo ranting and leave you with the chant.

Wall St. is saying payall our debts
All we are saying is thats not OUR debt.


30 Oct 11 - 04:12 AM (#3246849)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

Etan has been with OWS since the beginning, Bobert. He wrote on Mudcat a good while back and then a month ago seeking help with lyrics to the melody of Which Side Are You On. Mark Ross and I contributed 4 and 3 stanzas respectively, and Etan added two others in a flurry of internet activity, he being in NYC, Mark out in Oregon and me in Quebec. The stanzas were put in the following sequence on that afternoon of October 3, 2011. He then printed the lyrics and distributed them to some singers in the occupied zone, some buskers in Manhattan, and I heard a few days back that Pete and Tao sang some of the stanzas when they paid a visit to OWS. He's a good man, a statement Mark Ross would be willing to back up.


Which Side Are You On: 2011

Lyrics by E Ben-Ami, M Ross and B Murdoch


Come all you brave occupiers,
There's a truth that I must tell,
If we don't fight for our country,
We'll see it go to hell.

Oh, people can you stand it,            
Tell me if you can
Will we fight here out on the street
Or beg with cap in hand?

We came here for liberty                  
To change a damned disgrace
Walked across the Brooklyn Bridge
Got netted and got maced.

There's a place in New York City         
Where the money goes round & round
But for 99ers in the street
None of that will trickle down

What Wall Street does is evil
But they keep it out of sight
Money goes from their left hand
Directly to their right

The politicos and the bankers            
Are having too much fun
We're out here on the street today
To put them on the run

Tell them up in Washington               
Let them hear it 'cross the land
We've been too long divided
United we'll make our stand

You say you love this country,               
I hope to God that's true,
But do you think those politicians,
Give a damn for you.

We send our deepest thanks to you                  
We know you will not fall
The cops could take us one by one
But they sure can't take us all

Who wrote which specific stanza was never important to any of us. Besides, we edited each other's stuff and that's what we got. It took 1 1/2 hours start to finish because Etan needed the song to sing next day to the people at the OWS encampment. He definitely does have credentials. fyi

BM

PS There was another thread a month back on which some of the stanzas appeared. I can never find anything once it's not on the screen, so where it went is anybody's guess.


30 Oct 11 - 05:22 AM (#3246864)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Donuel

There are two things that need to be highlighted which are ticking time bombs regarding OWS that need to be defused before harm comes to the emerging movement.

1 The propoganda rhetoric that OWS is at its a core an anti capitalist movement is a potentially harmful definition. This accusation sends everyone down the wrong road that could result in a horrendous crash. BBC is calling their protestors anti capitalist. I have heard the US media in lock step with this talking point of anti capitalist demonstrators. Sticks and stones and all the patently absurd associations being placed on OWS by the 1% owned media have no staying power but "anti capitalist" could have impliocations that might make it difficult to ever overcome.

   What Wall St. practiced was not remotely connected to capitalism.
One could read the book Super Capitalism to gain more insight.
It was fraud extortion and global larceny. From a psycholinguistic stand point many great causes have been greatly harmed by deliberate redefinitions such as card carrying liberal phrases that equated liberalism to communism to the degree that liberalism was renamed as progressive. Golbal warming was redefined as climate change. ect.

If anything OWS seeks an awareness of how Wall st perverted capitalism. In a sense OWS can point a spotlight at preserving the best of capitalism by exposing the depraved twisting of it by recent wall st crimes. Being a defender of a wise form of capitalism is certainly more uniting than divisive.

2 The second point is most important. Educating people to the 3 Wall st lies is critical. The 1st lie is that what was done was legal, the second lie is that our money was lost. and the third is that only they can "unwind" all the problems to compicated for us mortals.

We must not play on their fild of definitions and paradigms.
The 1% just wants to keep their casino open to perpetuate the wholesale theft. We must not assume money equates directly to a ower that is forever above the law.

A Nuremberg like trial regarding great deliberate financial crimes of war against the world must enter the conversation. Not that justice would be achieved merely by a trial but that it is the instrument that can begin to make reparations by confiscating the stolen assets back from Wall St. The focus of the trial is not to prop up some scape goats but to toliterally hold upwards to a thousand criminal participants over a period of years. The enablers of Wall St crimes, the inventors of their weapons of financial destruction, the lawyers that helped hide crimes and the Owner investors of Hedge Fund hierarchies need to be brought to court. The more perps we bring in the more likely that lawyers will turn on thier employers, wives on the crooks, minions on the middlemen execs.
If confiscation of stolen money is succesful, the 1% will call it redistrubution of wealth but we should call it evidence.


In short OWS requires a definition as defenders of good capitalism and not destroyers of capitalism, It was wall st who did the destruction

There needs to be hopeful talk of calling for a global trial which will expose more about the harm Wall St did on a global scale, for how much money and for whom they took orders.


The third goal can soon follow of canceling all the insurance bought on credit and all the bets made with no money down...all of those virtually imaginary and invented bets need to be deemed null and void. Those bets like CDOs and swaps and insurance bought from AIG with no money down etc.   If done - 30 trillion dollars or more will be wiped from the ledger. Naturally the wealthy want to keep those bets open and keep playing their hand, but the world can afford their pleasure of a casino that sinks nations with rigged machines.


I welcome input here, I am anxious to hear from serious thinkers and common "sensers" alike.


30 Oct 11 - 08:28 AM (#3246958)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

Get the effing computers OUT of stock exchanges and go back to ticker tape. Tax each and every transaction. People caught using illegal means to manipulate the market get automatic life in jail after paying back what they ripped off. No more off-shore banking. No more tax havens.


30 Oct 11 - 03:01 PM (#3247140)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Donuel

It seems it will take a lot of work to overcome the mindset that wall st debts are the 99%'s debt.


30 Oct 11 - 03:24 PM (#3247148)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Yeah, I love hearing the right wing accuse the 99% of being communists for supporting Social Security yet the rich have had all their screw up socialized...

If the internet can level the playing field against Boss Hog's BIG MEDIA propaganda machine then things are about to change...

B~


30 Oct 11 - 04:50 PM (#3247202)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton

This is getting more "Pythonesque" every day.

Is it to be the "Judean peoples front", or the "Peoples front of Judea"

That is the question!.......:0)



Seriously, dont excuse Capitalism, the nice stuff always leads to the heavy stuff and we are in the heavy stuff up to our necks.

Get serious,you well intentioned "liberals" are wasting time.


30 Oct 11 - 05:10 PM (#3247213)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

2 choices, Ake...

"Deliverance" or not...

You might like "Deliverance"... I don't...

B~


30 Oct 11 - 05:15 PM (#3247214)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

The police are beginning to sweep the streets of these nuisances.
As soon as the cold weather hits, they will retire to their burrows.
Protesters arrested in Austin, Portland, Tacoma, Denver, etc.
A headline in a Calgary paper calls for their removal from Olympic Plaza in the downtown area.


30 Oct 11 - 05:33 PM (#3247220)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton

Dont fancy deliverence Bob!

I advocate unity.....isolate the political class, stop seeing our brothers and sisters as the "enemy".

A politically motivated minority seeking confrontation with a fearful, confused majority, will be swiftly liquidated!


30 Oct 11 - 06:19 PM (#3247237)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

I don't think the OWS folks are "fearful and confused," Ake. The folks I've talked to know exactly what the problem is and how to fix it. And there are a LOT of them. Not all of them are actually out there--physically. But they are THERE, never doubt that.

Don Firth


30 Oct 11 - 06:46 PM (#3247253)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Yes, Q, in a fascists and militaristic state, you can be 100% correct and still lose... The fascists will do as they always have... We understand this reality... Mubarak and Ghadaffi didn't go quietly either...

B~


30 Oct 11 - 06:55 PM (#3247260)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Don Firth: "I don't think the OWS folks are "fearful and confused," Ake......"


Only Bobert and I am!


GfS


30 Oct 11 - 06:55 PM (#3247262)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox

Its all about the social media folks.


Whoever controls the media controls the people.

So if the people control their own media, they become empowered.


Dividing the people and isolating them is the other way of controlling people.

Social Media connects people together.


Finally, a capitalist is not a person who follows any ideology.

A capitalist is one who owns the capital.

i.e. the 1%

(its in the dictionary)


So if the 1% own most of the capital, and if the 1% need to be properly taxed, and if the 1% need to be regulated better, then it is linguistically accurate to say that the capitalists are the focus of these demos.

It isn't necessarily socialism, because - like the riots - it isn't about any kind of prescriptive ideology - its organic and issues based - one issue at a time.

Just sayin ...


And Q, if you think that the social media revolution is just a fad, you clearly have your head in the sand.

We don't know how its gonna pan out, but we live in fast changing times. The power is coming to the people and we have only seen the tiniest glimpse of what it is capable of.

And there is nothing that can be done to stop it - just like with music piracy - you shut one thing down, and another springs up - you make one thing inaccessible and another way of getting there springs up ...

... the grapevine has gone fibre optic ...

... the collective conscious has developed neural pathways ...

I can't see how reactionary thought can survive unless a new fascist movement is engineered.

... it may happen yet ... it might be the only way to keep the people down ...


30 Oct 11 - 07:05 PM (#3247266)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Yeah, Lox... I agree that OWS has overridden the huge corporate media propaganda machine called BIG MEDIA...

I am getting concerned that Boss Hog is looking at a play out of the Ghadaffi playbook with his militaristic responses of late...

B~


30 Oct 11 - 07:10 PM (#3247268)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton

Don ...sorry, you are wrong. The people who want to change the system are much in the minority.....its important to recognise that.
We are STILL relatively affluent, we will not be willing to face the issues for a decade at least, and by that time the UK and US, will probably have been converted to "Police States"

Unity is the only way, Unity with the "fearful and confused" majority.......not OWS btw, they are just "confused" :0)


30 Oct 11 - 07:13 PM (#3247272)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

No, ake... If you go down the list of things that OWS wants, the polling of the American people are firmly behind them ***all***... So, it is you who is wrong... Not Don...

B~


30 Oct 11 - 07:29 PM (#3247288)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

"Unity is the only way, Unity with the "fearful and confused" majority.......not OWS btw, they are just "confused" :0)"

Before OWS, Ake, what exactly was the so-called majority doing? That's a serious question I'd love an answer to. Looks to me like the 'majority' hasn't been doing a damned thing other than being a majority. So help me out here and explain, if you'd be so kind. I am trying to understand where you are coming from on this.


30 Oct 11 - 07:30 PM (#3247290)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk

Here is Dennis Kucinich's latest comment on the Occupy Wall Street movement, sent out by email in the last couple of days:

Occupy

Dear Friends,

An Iraq War veteran who survived two tours of duty gets his skull fractured in ... Oakland!
53 activists arrested in Atlanta. SWAT teams deployed to boot out peaceful protesters.

Recent actions against Occupy protesters are irresponsible and tragic. They're an assault on our democracy. These protesters are bravely exercising their right to freedom of expression, to bring attention to a political and economic system that's rigged against most Americans. I stand with them; and, all Americans -- left and right -- should join me in protecting their freedom to non-violently create change.

This isn't a Democratic or Republican movement. It's not about one party or one policy. It's about standing up to a financial system that's completely backwards. Wall Street banks get billions in bailouts and emerge with massive profits. Most Americans see a program of austerity in a painful economic climate -- benefit cuts, high unemployment, declining wages, and crumbling infrastructure. Congress moved swiftly to "save" banks (something I strongly opposed), and now Congress is paralyzed, unable to create jobs and to save our middle class.

It's no surprise Americans are standing up. Our country's economic policies have consolidated and accelerated wealth to the top. One percent of Americans now control 42% of our wealth. It's not radical to think this is out of balance or to demand a government that is of the people and for the people. I've been to these protests, and I can tell you they're filled with honest, hard working Americans who are concerned with the direction of our country and our economic future.

I am deeply concerned. I'm concerned about an economic system which tethers job creation to China and big banks. We shouldn't have to borrow money from China -- or Japan or South Korea -- to get out of this ditch. We should stop the Fed from giving billions to the big banks. We have to take back the power to manage our own economy, to regain control over our monetary system, consistent with the U.S. Constitution. That's why, one month ago, I introduced the National Emergency Employment Defense (NEED) Act. The legislation would put the Federal Reserve under the Department of the Treasury, and it would help us recapture control of our financial system. As part of the NEED Act, Congress would use its constitutional power to invest in America, creating millions of jobs by putting billions of dollars directly into circulation. And since this money is adding real, tangible value to our national wealth, it will not generate inflation.

We need a financial system that is of the people and for the people. We need to take it back from the big banks. We need economic and social justice. I will continue to support the Occupy movement. I will continue to fight for legislation, including the NEED Act, that sets America on a path of jobs for all, health care for all, education for all, retirement security for all, and peace.

Let's keep this movement alive. Let's keep fighting for economic and social justice. Keep occupying Wall Street. And, with your help, I'll keep occupying Congress.

With respect,


Dennis


30 Oct 11 - 07:35 PM (#3247293)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Dennis has always had it correct...

B~


30 Oct 11 - 11:05 PM (#3247405)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Suffet

Greetings:

Marilyn and I just spent part of another day at the Occupy Wall Street encampment in Zuccotti Park, New York City, and if I'm feeling well enough after a doctor's appointment tomorrow morning we will go back there again.

One can tell that the Occupy movement is obviously being taking seriously just by the viciousness and frequency of the rumors, distortions, and outright lies told about it. Among these are:

• The movement is racist and/or it is anti-Semitic. Blacks, Asians, and Latinos have all been made to feel unwelcome, while Jews have been harassed, ridiculed, and accused of being the enemy.

• The movement was started by a bunch of spoiled trust fund kids who feel guilty about their wealth and/or hate their parents.

• The movement is secretly controlled by George Soros, Nancy Pelosi, Big Labor, and/or Barack Obama.

• The American Nazi Party is behind it. So is the Communist Party USA, the Muslim Brotherhood, Hamas, Lyndon Larouche, Ron Paul, remnants of the KGB, and a secret team within the CIA.

• Its participants have been armed with AK47s, they have initiated attacks on the police, and they have spit upon men and women in uniform.

• And of course, its participants are giving drugs to and/or having sex with minors. There have even been some underage girls forced or tricked into prostitution.

So what's next? Kidnapping the Lindbergh baby?

--- Steve


30 Oct 11 - 11:42 PM (#3247414)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

'The view always looks the same to everyone except the lead dog.'

Thank you once again, Steve.


31 Oct 11 - 03:58 AM (#3247448)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton

Sorry if I sounded patronising B.
I suppose what I'm saying, is that I've been against the system most of my life, my comrades and I have had very little help from the "liberals" who seems to be flocking to this new movement.
In fact they always treated "radicals" as their enemy.
I dont think most of the OWS people really understand the problems involved, or the reality of the situation.

This is not Libya, or Egypt....This is a serious,organised and well armed state with a "democratic mandate"(yes, I know), but that will be thrown at you just as it was thrown at us.
The Media are having a bit of fun and creating stories at the moment, but they are controlled by the powers you are opposing and soon they will start the hate campaign.

Change will not be achieved overnight, or even in a generation in this type of society, when most people still believe that they have a stake in its continuance.
Confronting the system will certainly set the majority against you, and they will be bolstered by the media.
It has all happened before, we must realise as I have done, that this evil system is never going to vanish with the next sunrise...and that none of us are going to see its passing....But we can make a start by understanding how this system works and refusing to be divided politically by the tactics it uses....Ake


31 Oct 11 - 09:52 AM (#3247592)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

One thing that Boss Hog has at his disposal, Steve, is a 100% lock on BOG MEDIA which he uses as his propaganda mill... But it goes well beyond that... The crooks have hundreds, perhaps thousands, of hired blog/goons who get paid to sit in front of their computers and put out as much bullshit propaganda as they can think of...

I go to the Washington Post discussions every day and I could name the folks who are being paid to highjack threads and propagate lies... I'd like to know how much $$$ Boss Hog pumps into his overall propaganda every day... I'd really like to know that...

B~


31 Oct 11 - 10:43 AM (#3247626)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Steve,
..or all of the above.....

GfS


31 Oct 11 - 12:04 PM (#3247687)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Five surgeons from big cities are discussing who makes the
best patients to operate on.

The first surgeon, from New York , says, "I like to see
accountants on my operating table because when you open them
up, everything inside is numbered.."

The second , from Chicago , responds, "Yeah, but you should
try electricians !   Everything inside them is color coded."

The third surgeon, from Dallas , says, "No, I really think
librarians are the best, everything inside them is in alphabetical
order"

The fourth surgeon, from Los Angeles chimes in: "You know,
I like construction workers ... Those guys always understand when
you have a few parts left over."

But the fifth surgeon, from Washington DC , shut them all up when he observed:
"You're all wrong. Politicians are the easiest to operate on.
There's no guts, no heart, no balls, no brains, and no spine. Plus, the head and the ass are interchangeable.

GfS


31 Oct 11 - 01:01 PM (#3247731)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: akenaton

Boom Boom!! :0).....very funny Sanity!


31 Oct 11 - 01:09 PM (#3247738)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

Ake, thank you very much.


31 Oct 11 - 06:27 PM (#3247957)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Suffet

Greeting:

I spent another day at the Occupy Wall Street encampment in Zuccotti Park in New York City, mostly singing labor songs, but also singing a few songs from the Civil Rights Movement, as well as leading a small group in singing Merle Travis's Sixteen Tons. "Another day older and deeper in debt..." is not some historical artifact. The only thing that has changed in that Citibank, JP Morgan Chase, Bank of America, et al. have replaced the company store.

Among the people who were listening and singing along today were several from the OWS Labor Working Group, men and women active in various unions. They particularly enjoyed my song Union Warriors and asked for a recording and a printed copy of the lyrics, both of which I was able to give them. They also asked if I would be interested in singing it in a scheduled performance to be arranged, to which I answered "Of course." What else could I say?

Meanwhile, let me add that OWS has not been problem free. It has faced and still faces many challenges. Among these are sanitation, security, community relations, dealing with the police and other authorities, and dealing with the weather. But as difficult as these may be, the OWS community has in each instance risen to the challenge in a humane, respectful, serious, and democratic way that considers the importance of both process and product. I am impressed, and I am not one who is easily impressed.

--- Steve


31 Oct 11 - 10:17 PM (#3248069)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,TIA

Steve-
Total agreement. The people who buy into the Faux News characterizations you listed have NOT been out here.
They are talking out their asses.
Stay warm and dry.


31 Oct 11 - 10:30 PM (#3248077)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Yup, the most vocal critics of OWS know nothing about it...

B~


01 Nov 11 - 12:19 AM (#3248117)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

The very basic problem with this whole thing, is that the 'protesters' are protesting just Wall Street alone, and not the corrupt politicians of BOTH parties(see Kucinich letter, and what I've been saying for months), who facilitate the screwing of the American public. The other problem is, that these 'protesters' are actually weakening the validity of their complaints by widespread lameness.
The 'left' has 'seized the moment', much akin to the Tea party...but their real support won't come from where they think it should. The unions will give limited support, because their funds ARE tied up in Wall Street, and have corrupted both politicians and bankers as well! So how far will this go?....till violence, weather, or just lameness?
From a lot of press coverage, a lot of these people don't even know doodily-squat about anything deeper than shallow participation....and as Steve's post, some of the people who he listed ARE supporting the 'movement'...but not for the desired reasons, that the 'movement', is about.
It appears that other than a bunch of people showing up, the message is obscured, by the lightweights.
But, I will say this, that, at least the is attention being focused on at least PART of the problem.
As far as its effectiveness.....well, it would help if they weren't 'just occupying'...but had a more realistic goal, and aimed it at the right direction....with people who might want to get a clue!
Otherwise, it will lose it's effective message.....we've seen it before, in regards to other 'causes'.
Anyway, 'HI!'.....I was out of town on a 'bidness twip'..

GfS


01 Nov 11 - 12:30 AM (#3248119)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: ollaimh

i agree with tose who say that the securitues foisted on banks and the governemnt are dressed up junk bonds. the bankc et al stopped backing the new securities with any reserve when the final regulations were lifted in 1990-92. after that they quadrupilled the securites traded with these derivitives based on other un backed securities. it's much worse than the junk bind scandal in the eighties but it's so bad that to actually crahre the culprits would have the potential to bring down the whole system. so so far the oversight people do nothing.

when obama started to regulate the knox bros put a half a billion into the tea party movement. obama got the message.

the real tragedy was that the federal government didn't get any assets for the bails out. if they had an equity stake in the bailed out banks then they could audit and see the full story. especially oif they took a stake in several key institutions in new york and get control over the north east section of the federal reserve. then they could have audited the whole federal reserve.

but that would be socialism.

i love seeing these kids out protrsting, however having fought the over fushing issues sown east and the logging abuses out west and seeing the corporations win win win i am not optimistic.

as leonard cohen said"the rich have got their channels in the bedrooms of the poor"

i repeat that in 1990 over eight per cent and as much as above ninety per cent of the securities traded on the new york markets didn't exist in any form. they congured them from thin air and took the money and ran


01 Nov 11 - 01:35 AM (#3248125)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

"(see Kucinich letter, and what I've been saying for months)"

You are not the only one who's been saying it for months. Don't break your arm patting your back.


01 Nov 11 - 02:20 AM (#3248132)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Well I certainly took a lot of shit, for placing the blame on the real problem, while other (morons) were playing a partisan game, complete with stupid attack talking points, and refusals to admit the real problem...until their party belatedly admitted that there was 'something wrong'!!!!....

but don't worry.......my arm is just fine, thank you for your concern!

GfS

P.S. So is my 'sanity'...sorry about theirs!


01 Nov 11 - 08:51 AM (#3248304)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Bottom line, we get the $$$$ out of politics and the rest are details...

B~


01 Nov 11 - 10:01 AM (#3248372)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,TIA

Public funding for elections.
Fixed amount, same for each, can't use any more...not even your own.
And no activity by outside groups allowed, whether it's specific to a candidate or not.
Draconian? You bet.


01 Nov 11 - 10:58 AM (#3248428)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

THAT I can agree!
...and 'corporations' and unions, are not the same as individual people, when it comes to 'donations'(read: bribes)!

GfS


01 Nov 11 - 11:45 AM (#3248484)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

"...and 'corporations' and unions, are not the same as individual people, when it comes to 'donations'(read: bribes)!"

Too true, but hey, it's the LAW. Bastard shitheads rammed that one through.


01 Nov 11 - 01:00 PM (#3248545)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

The "bastard shitheads" in this case is that 2nd legislative branch, the judiciary, brucie... Congress, or the Founding Fathers, never said that corporations were people... The Supreme Court did...

B~


01 Nov 11 - 02:23 PM (#3248625)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Donuel

A new shit head Missisippi law has made some more things people.
The law states that any fertilized egg/blastopore of a human clone, frozen embryo or human being is now a person that carries with it all the laws and protections of the US Constitution and all laws of of the State of Missisippi.

The reducto absurdium laws that are being passed around the country are the product of biblical law. These new religioun based laws express some of the same dangers these people were afraid of when they redundantly passed anti Sharia law in fear that religion would become the basis for the law of the land.

A woman can be andicted for murder if anything untoward causes the egg to die, such as taking a day after pill. To provide saftey from this new law a dozen new laws woll have to follow so that parents of the egg can not be arrested for abandonment or endangerment of the egg, expecially in fertility clinic freezers.

Whats up with that?

As it stands Downs syndrome eggs will be required to go to term, the doctor can be held as an acessory to murder and since the egg now has all legal rights of a person (child and adult) what are the new tax laws and dependent deductions going to be? Dggs that are forzen are abused? kidnapped?
Sure its absurd but there are humdreds of politically elected district attorneys who have a new weapon to use at their own perverted descretion that carries with it a capital crime.

If these eggs and corporations get together, normal humans will be official second class citizens.


01 Nov 11 - 02:25 PM (#3248632)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Donuel

Bobert I have been to the local, Philly and New Yoicks OWS demonstrations, I didn't see too much through the dark tinted limo glass but I saw enough;)


01 Nov 11 - 02:28 PM (#3248637)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: BTNG

Isn't this Missisippi law being brought to us my some of the same crowd that declared that IVF was infringing on "God's work" and was wholly unnatural and blasphemous

My feeling is that this law is aimed at, amongst others, the Pro-Choice lobby


01 Nov 11 - 02:47 PM (#3248649)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Stringsinger

"I was around (and active) back in 1947 where a massive protest wound up producing some good songs, the Progressive Party and not much else. "

Dick, I was there also. I can't believe how wrong you are. The IPP set the stage for much of what happened in the Sixties including the Civil Rights Movement. It stressed that there was an alternative to the "Tweedle-dum, Tweedle-Dee Parties".
It supported unions that made inroads into safety codes, better wages and a prosperous Fifties. It exposed the racism of the South, the hangings and the crazies that started White Citizen Councils. It lay the groundwork for the inimitable Pete Seeger (he cut his career in the Henry Wallace Campaign) who has exerted tremendous influence on the folk music scene without whom there would be no Mudcat. It made many aware of the pitfalls of Capitalism although it was not covered in the mainstream press as it is not being covered now.

I am part of the 99% protest and instead of calling us protesters, I am taking my cue from Thom Hartmann and referring to us as Patriots. We are the change we want. Goals? There are so many and they are all interconnected. Two of them are
1. let the rich pay their fair share of taxes and 2. stop these wasteful and meaningless wars. I'm glad that simplistic labels can't be place on this movement.
Every one of us is a leader and a spokesperson for this movement and we are growing day by day. This movement is not only an extension of the Civil Rights Movement, it is uniquely revolutionary and an important part of American history.
There will always be those who cynically diss us and say "What's the use?" and my response is "Why do you think you are alive?"

There are all walks-of-life of us out there demanding justice because without that, there will be no peace. We are making a difference by showing America what a police state looks like here, how corporations and congressional leaders have become corrupted,how platitudes and sneering comments by nay-sayers mean nothing in the face of authentic social change. As to the charge of ignorance leveled against us, I say, you really ought to get out more. Come down to the Occupy Movement and talk to people. Many read, and many well educated, they respond and they are involved. Many of us have not made a lot of money in our lives but have found meaning that can't be bought by wealthy parasites.

As the old cliche goes, "Lead, follow, or get out of the way!"

We are the Patriots and the 99%'ers.


01 Nov 11 - 03:44 PM (#3248698)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

Exactly so, Strings!

Don Firth


01 Nov 11 - 05:04 PM (#3248749)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus

"It stressed that there was an alternative to the "Tweedle-dum, Tweedle-Dee Parties". Leading , effectively to over another half- century of Tweedle-dum party rule.
"Come down to the Occupy Movement and talk to people. Many read, and many well educated, tthey respond and they are involved"
You can say exactly the same thing about the Tea Party.

My point, again, is that a large impassioned movement is more apt to accomplish something if its energies are directed towards specific objectives within the existing political structure.


01 Nov 11 - 05:30 PM (#3248761)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

The existing political structure is part of the problem, Dick.


01 Nov 11 - 05:35 PM (#3248765)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus

What's your alternative?

When the Red Revolution Brings Its Solution Along

When the Red Revolution brings its solution along, along,
There'll be no more lootin'
'Cause we'll be shootin' that Wall Street throng!
Wake up, you proletarians! Don't act like seminarians!
Expropriate barbarians! Build a worker's republic!
Surplus value and capital you will not find there -
Exploitation and mass starvation will disappear.
I'm just a Red again, saying what I said again -
No boss ere long -
When the Red Revolution brings its solution along!


01 Nov 11 - 05:54 PM (#3248775)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

Dick, did you grab post 666 on purpose?

I'd agree with you were we talking about Canada. I think that by the time the next election comes around here we'll be able to mobilize enough support for the NDP to radically change the balance of power in the House of Commons. However, it's the us under discussion.

The next election leaves y'all with a choice of Tweedledee or Tweedledum, both of which/whom have been complicit in the collapse of your economy and the pillaging of the American people. So I ask, sincerely, change what from within the existing structure?


01 Nov 11 - 05:59 PM (#3248780)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

The way I see it, the union guys in the 20's and 30's got the ball a little down the field and the IPP a little further and then me and my buds in the 60's got it a little further down the field and now it's the OWSers turn to do the heavy lifting...

One thing for sure is that Boss Hog has never been so confident that he can turn the clock back a 100 years so the lifting this time is going to be a lot harder...

B~


01 Nov 11 - 09:31 PM (#3248875)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Suffet

Greetings:

I went for a haircut today and the guy in the chair next to me starting talking about Occupy Wall Street. He said that his son, a New York City policeman, loves it. Why? Because he gets to volunteer for lots of easy overtime. This past Sunday, for example, his son volunteered for two shifts and got triple overtime for each, meaning he made as much in one day as he would make in six days walking his beat. Also, his son said that it's easy work. The protesters are respectful, they comply with most requests, an they keep the place clean. Also, they fly lots of American flags. And they have lots of veterans there, at least during the day. And plenty of union workers, too, real stand-up guys. OK, his son said, it gets really noisy during the day, especially at lunchtime when the drumming starts, but then it quiets down, and at night, when maybe 300 or 400 people sleep over in the park, it's really quiet. And no one is smoking weed or getting drunk, and that's something you can't say about the big parades in New York.

One more thing his son said is that the cops have lots of snitches planted in the park, but they're not really needed. Absolutely everything the protesters do they announce publicly, so there should be no real surprises. The only time there is potential for trouble is when groups of protesters march out of Zuccotti Park, and then it's cool as long as they stay on the sidewalk two abreast, keep moving, and don't block traffic. Anyway, the cops can use scooters to keep marchers out of the roadway. However, one time the sergeant in charge didn't realize the marchers were going to break up into three groups, and she (the sergeant) hadn't assigned enough cops with scooters to follow all three contingents as they went their separate ways. The brass apparent reamed her out for that intelligence failure.

So I asked him if his son told him whether the cops are sympathetic to the protesters or not, and he said not at first, but then they didn't know what to expect. The longer the protest goes on, his son told him, the more open the cops are to the protesters. Then he said again how the American flags are a good sign, and his son wishes that some of the big parades would carry that many American flags. Also his son said the cops hear that the food is really good, but they are not allowed to have any. There are strict NYPD rules against taking anything for free, even if it's offered free to anyone, and even if they come back when they are off duty and out of uniform.

--- Steve


01 Nov 11 - 09:40 PM (#3248884)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Well, here in Charlotte, I have made an effort to have conversations with the cops... Nothin' heavy... Football is always safe... Just pus a human face before them that doesn't look at them as the enemy... Lotta that going on with the youngin's...l I see the young folks trying to engage the cops with friendly conversation... That's a big change from the 60s...

B~


01 Nov 11 - 10:45 PM (#3248905)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,TIA

Steve-
Booyah!
The cops are the 99% in spades, and they seem to be getting it.
Locally, we are next to the police station, and they are totally letting us use the facilities inside. I tell everyone to leave it cleaner than they found it.
Our local paper carries a syndicated cartoon (Mallard Fillmore) that tries to portray us as dirty hippies, and of course Faux News is doing their Master's bidding, but anyone who bothers to look for themselves sees respect, compassion, and egalitarianism. I hope to meet you someday. Keep it up. You too Bobert.


PS
Anybody else going to encircle the Whitehouse on Sunday?


02 Nov 11 - 07:01 AM (#3249011)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox

Same old struggle - the only difference is social media.

Here's an excerpt from Abe Lincolns State of the union adress on Dec 3rd 1861.

Beautiful stuff.

Enjoy ...

"It is not needed nor fitting here that a general argument should be made in favor of popular institutions, but there is one point, with its connections, not so hackneyed as most others, to which I ask a brief attention. It is the effort to place capital on an equal footing with, if not above, labor in the structure of government. It is assumed that labor is available only in connection with capital; that nobody labors unless somebody else, owning capital, somehow by the use of it induces him to labor. This assumed, it is next considered whether it is best that capital shall hire laborers, and thus induce them to work by their own consent, or buy them and drive them to it without their consent. Having proceeded so far, it is naturally concluded that all laborers are either hired laborers or what we call slaves. And further, it is assumed that whoever is once a hired laborer is fixed in that condition for life.

Now there is no such relation between capital and labor as assumed, nor is there any such thing as a free man being fixed for life in the condition of a hired laborer. Both these assumptions are false, and all inferences from them are groundless.

Labor is prior to and independent of capital. Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if labor had not first existed. Labor is the superior of capital, and deserves much the higher consideration. Capital has its rights, which are as worthy of protection as any other rights. Nor is it denied that there is, and probably always will be, a relation between labor and capital producing mutual benefits. The error is in assuming that the whole labor of community exists within that relation. A few men own capital, and that few avoid labor themselves, and with their capital hire or buy another few to labor for them. A large majority belong to neither class--neither work for others nor have others working for them. In most of the Southern States a majority of the whole people of all colors are neither slaves nor masters, while in the Northern a large majority are neither hirers nor hired. Men, with their families--wives, sons, and daughters--work for themselves on their farms, in their houses, and in their shops, taking the whole product to themselves, and asking no favors of capital on the one hand nor of hired laborers or slaves on the other. It is not forgotten that a considerable number of persons mingle their own labor with capital; that is, they labor with their own hands and also buy or hire others to labor for them; but this is only a mixed and not a distinct class. No principle stated is disturbed by the existence of this mixed class."


03 Nov 11 - 07:51 AM (#3249600)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce

I think this is still worthy of discussion, but had fallen off the page.



With over 20% supporting the Tea Party, and 40-60% supporting the OWS, one would think that BOTH groups would explore common ground. The Tea Party was formed as a result of opposition to the bailouts.


03 Nov 11 - 07:53 AM (#3249603)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,TIA

The fact they they have not merged is revealing.


03 Nov 11 - 08:32 AM (#3249611)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox

"The Tea Party was formed as a result of opposition to the bailouts. "

The tea party was neither spontaneous, grassroots nor concerned with the welfare of the ordinary man, but was engineered by those at the top to prevent their corporate interests from being curtailed and to try to deregulate further so they could behave even more recklesssly and selfishly than ever before.

The Occupy movement has nothing in common with the tea party.


03 Nov 11 - 08:40 AM (#3249614)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce

Then I fail to see a valid claim of representing 99%- But I guess 80% doesn't sound as good.


03 Nov 11 - 09:17 AM (#3249627)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Well, bruce... If one looks at the over lapping circle concept there is a sliver of common ground but only a sliver...

The Tea Party isn't a party at all.... It is just the rightest falnk of the Republican party's base... It was organized by hundreds of million$$$ of corporate money, that same folks who OWS think have way too much influence over our government...

I would guess if there is any common ground it's that each is angry...

The Tea Party is angry at the government which, BTW, is not a surprise since the Republican Party has lived at the hate-the-government table going back to Reagan who said it was the problem... The OWSer are angry at the corporations which have used billion$$$ over the years to bust unions, chip away at the New Deal and buy up gobs and gobs of the the government...

That's the deal... I don't see where the Tea Party folks will ever see that most of the rank 'n file are dupes and stooges working against their own best interests...

B~


03 Nov 11 - 09:30 AM (#3249631)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce

Bobert,

I disagree. There is as much Far Left money behind the OWS ( Look at what the UNIONS have contributed, and where they got that money) as is behind the Tea Party.


I don't see where the OWS folks will ever see that most of the rank 'n file are dupes and stooges working against their own best interests...


03 Nov 11 - 09:34 AM (#3249633)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Bruce, You'll have to forgive Bobert's ridiculous, rants, about anything that has to do with real re-actions...unless they are promoted by the Democratic Party. He has issues.

GfS


03 Nov 11 - 09:44 AM (#3249642)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.

There is as much Far Left money behind the OWS ... as is behind the Tea Party.

Source for this assertion, please. Or just more Beardie Bullshit?

Also, please define "Far Left"


03 Nov 11 - 09:51 AM (#3249646)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce

"Oakland Police responded to a late night call that protesters had broken into and occupied a downtown building and set several simultaneous fires," the statement read. "The protesters began hurling rocks, explosives, bottles, and flaming objects at responding officers. Several private and municipal buildings sustained heavy vandalism. Dozens of protesters wielding shields were surrounded and arrested."
Protesters reported running from several rounds of tear gas and bright flashes and deafening pops that some thought were caused by "flash bang" grenades. Fire crews arrived and suppressed the flames.


03 Nov 11 - 10:01 AM (#3249653)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce

I will try to post this, now for the fourth time:



http://apnews.myway.com/article/20111103/D9QP7IC80.html

"OAKLAND, Calif. (AP) - A day of demonstrations in Oakland that began as a significant step toward expanding the political and economic influence of the Occupy Wall Street movement, ended with police in riot gear arresting dozens of protesters who had marched through downtown to break into a vacant building, shattering windows, spraying graffiti and setting fires along the way.
"We go from having a peaceful movement to now just chaos," said protester Monique Agnew, 40.
The far-flung movement of protesters challenging the world's economic systems and distribution of wealth has gained momentum in recent weeks, capturing the world's attention by shutting down one of the nation's busiest shipping ports toward the end of a daylong "general strike" that prompted solidarity rallies across the U.S.
About 3,000 people converged on the Port of Oakland, the nation's fifth-busiest harbor, in a nearly five-hour protest Wednesday, swarming the area and blocking exits and streets with illegally parked vehicles and hastily-erected, chain-link fences.
Port officials said they were forced to cease maritime operations, citing concerns for workers' safety. They said in a statement they hope to resume operations Thursday "and that Port workers will be allowed to get to their jobs without incident. Continued missed shifts represent economic hardship for maritime workers, truckers, and their families, as well as lost jobs and lost tax revenue for our region."
Supporters in New York, Philadelphia, Los Angeles and elsewhere staged smaller-scale demonstrations; each group saying its protest was a show of support for the Oakland movement, which became a rallying point when an Iraq War veteran was seriously injured in a clash with police last week.
The larger Occupy movement has yet to coalesce into an organized association and until the port shut down had largely been limited scattershot marches, rallies and tent encampments since it began in September.
Organizers in Oakland had viewed the day as a significant victory. Police said that about 7,000 people participated in demonstrations throughout the day that were peaceful except for a few incidents of vandalism.
One of the protest leaders, Boots Riley, touted the day as a success, saying "we put together an ideological principle that the mainstream media wouldn't talk about two months ago."
His comments came before a group of demonstrators moved to break into the Travelers Aid building in order to, as some shouting protesters put it, "reclaim the building for the people."
Riley, whose anti-capitalist views are well-documented, considered the port shut down particularly significant for organizers who targeted it in an effort to stop the "flow of capital." The port sends goods primarily to Asia, including wine as well as rice, fruits and nuts, and handles imported electronics, apparel and manufacturing equipment, mostly from Asia, as well as cars and parts from Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Hyundai. An accounting of the financial toll from the shutdown was not immediately available.
The potential for the chaos that ultimately erupted was not something Riley wanted to even consider.
"If they do that after all this ..." He paused, then added, "They're smarter than that."
But the peace that abided throughout the day, did not last into the night.
Occupy protesters voicing anger over a budget trim that forced the closure of a homeless aid program converged on the empty building where it had been housed. They blocked off city streets with Dumpsters and other large trash bins, starting bonfires that leapt 15-feet in the air."


03 Nov 11 - 10:02 AM (#3249655)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce

http://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2011/11/02/general-strike-protesters-shut-down-port-of-oakland/


03 Nov 11 - 10:03 AM (#3249658)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/11/02/BA5G1LQ06S.DTL


03 Nov 11 - 10:06 AM (#3249660)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.

The link/clickie would have been sufficient, Beardie.

And the point you are trying to make in posting the AP story is what, precisely?


03 Nov 11 - 10:10 AM (#3249661)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce

Greggie,

As stated in a removed post:

MY comment was that "There is as much Far Left money behind the OWS ... as (Far right money) is behind the Tea Party."

When you have asked Bobert how much, and what evidence he has of that Tea Party Funding, I will show that the Far left has contributed to the OWS. Until then, you have no basis to ask for proof from me, as you accept Bobert without any proof..


03 Nov 11 - 10:12 AM (#3249663)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.

Thanks for confirming that you can cite no source & thestatement is, in fact, Beardie Bullshit. Appreciated.


03 Nov 11 - 10:54 AM (#3249678)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce

sorry- fat fingers...


"At an evening briefing, interim Oakland Police Chief Howard Jordan said officials believed that only about 60 or 70 of them -- black-garbed with kerchiefs covering their faces -- were believed to be committing acts of vandalism. Throughout Wednesday, members of the crowd had attempted to redirect and dissuade those self-described anarchists. When they broke windows and defaced several banks with graffiti, some Occupy Oakland protesters returned to scrub the walls of a Wells Fargo bank branch. Another placed a sign on the shattered window of a Chase bank branch that read, "We are better than this."

Some on the plaza said a small faction of demonstrators may have broken into a coffee shop, earning the ire of others in the movement.


03 Nov 11 - 11:00 AM (#3249681)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce

Greggie boy,

So YOU are stating that Bobert has no supporting evidence of his claim, and is a bullshitting liar???


ELF- LOOK AT Greg F.'s post before YOU delete mine for Bullshit.


03 Nov 11 - 11:04 AM (#3249682)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce

"
And the point you are trying to make in posting the AP story is what, precisely?
"




My reply to this was removed by the mudelf, as I had slurred my name and the start together . Can it be restored , or are we to have censorship here to insure the "correct" viewpoint is the only one allowed to be posted?


03 Nov 11 - 11:47 AM (#3249708)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,TIA

Actually, according to Source Watch, Bobert has it just about right:
Compare these two descriptions of the organizations and how they are supported:


http://sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Tea_Party


http://sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Occupy_Wall_Street


03 Nov 11 - 11:47 AM (#3249709)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.

what evidence [Bobert] has of that Tea Party Funding

Sorry, Beardie, that dog won't hunt, and that dodge won't work.

Tea Potty funding has been amply and conclusively documented by sources that run the gamut of left/right political spectrum. Hell, the Koch boys, the Coors family & all the rest not only admit it, they brag about it.

You may be in denial, but that's your problem.

Now, back to your source/documentation of your statement that "There is as much Far Left money behind the OWS ... as is behind the Tea Party."

Documentation? Source? Or more bullshit? Your move.


03 Nov 11 - 11:48 AM (#3249710)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.

or are we to have censorship here to insure the "correct" viewpoint is the only one allowed to be posted?

You're right, Beardie ... "THEY" are out to get you!


03 Nov 11 - 12:19 PM (#3249723)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce

Guest, TIA

The clickies you posted are to a site that has a bias- IT is funded by:
American Legacy Foundation
Bauman Family Foundation
Careth Foundation
Carolyn Foundation
Changing Horizons Charitable Trust
Courtney's Foundation
CS Fund
Deer Creek Foundation
Educational Foundation of America
Ettinger Foundation
Ford Foundation
Foundation for Deep Ecology
Foundation for Political Management
Funding Exchange
Richard & Rhoda Goldman Fund
Grodzins Fund
Helena Rubinstein Foundation
HKH Foundation
Litowitz Foundation
Marisla Foundation
Mostyn Foundation
Open Society Institute
Park Foundation
Public Welfare Foundation
Proteus Fund
V. Kann Rasmussen Foundation
Rockefeller Associates
Rockefeller Family Foundation
Rockwood Fund
Stern Family Fund
Schumann Center for Media and Democracy
Sunlight Foundation
Threshold Foundation
Tides Foundation
Town Creek Foundation
Turner Foundation
Wallace Global Fund
Winslow Foundation


They do not talk about the funding for OWS. Yet the wording is obviously pro-OWS and anti-Tea Party.

Tides is Soros- and if YOU would not accept a right-wing source, why should I accept a left-wing one?

I have seen visible union support of the OWS groups- which they are entitled to do, but DON'T tell me that that is not supposed to be counted against the support that the large number of independent Tea Party groups get from their supporters.

Both Soros and Koch are entitled to support groups that they think are correct- as are we all. But Bobert's claim goes beyond that, and has not (yet) been demonstrated to be based on facts.


03 Nov 11 - 12:27 PM (#3249725)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,TIA

Okay Bruce, it's your turn.
Back up your assertions.
You didn't like mine, but I did it didn't I?
You ain't done jack.


03 Nov 11 - 12:30 PM (#3249728)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,TIA

Oh, and since you didn't like the previous info, try this;

http://www.dailydot.com/news/new-data-occupy-wall-street-funding/

Of course since it does not agree with you, you will dismiss it.
But I am backing up the talk.


03 Nov 11 - 12:32 PM (#3249729)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,TIA

also;
http://philanthropy.com/article/Occupy-Wall-Street-Raises-More/129595/


03 Nov 11 - 12:42 PM (#3249734)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce

Guest, TIA

Both sources look good- but they discuss ONLY the donations through a specific channel. I am sure that if I said that the bank accounts for a Tea Party group show only the donations from individuals in small amounts, you would not accept that as proof that others did not provide funding and support.

I am certainly willing to say that MOST of the OWS are sincere, well-meaning, and not aware that there are others using the movement for their own purposes.

When I hear Bobert say that about the Tea Party, I might have some respect for him.


03 Nov 11 - 12:43 PM (#3249735)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.

Relax, TIA, just more bullshit from one of the 'cat's most prolific bullshitters. Think hereafter I'll shorten Bearder Bruce Bull Shit to simply posting BBBS (something of Beethoven about it, no?) to save typing & everyone will know what it means.

You have to admire his persistence, though- even shown to be wrong he keeps sticking to the same line of crap.


03 Nov 11 - 12:46 PM (#3249737)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/2011/10/18/poll-ows-protesters-violence/



So, greggie, you continue to have no way to dispute my points but to attack me? Not ONE comment in your post about the topic.


03 Nov 11 - 12:54 PM (#3249744)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Jeri

Would you two guys GET A FUCKING ROOM!?


03 Nov 11 - 01:07 PM (#3249753)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.

Us two? Seems more like Beardie Against The World.


03 Nov 11 - 01:20 PM (#3249759)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Donuel

Dear Bing hamton,

You are correct.


03 Nov 11 - 01:27 PM (#3249761)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Spleen Cringe

Cor. I thought it was us Brits who were supposed to have the monopoly on bad tempered threads!


03 Nov 11 - 01:36 PM (#3249766)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Donuel

At this stage the people in the street are we the people, whatever you want to call yourself. Becoming experienced with the fact that you are not all alone in this is empowering and educational.
That in itself is what matters today. Maybe it leads to Wall St regulations or justice for the criminal individuals and Cabals who have stolen vast unheard of sums of money, and want you to pay for it and then again maybe it won't.

Relatively few people here have enabled Corporations to delibereately hurt America and Americans. Those who have faithfully served the 1% by lieing or processing schemes of extortion and swindles may not even be acutely aware of what they did.

Fewer still knew exactly what they were doing with direct involvment in fraud, theft and other high crimes and misdemeaners. They did so with intrepidation believeing that they were immune to prosecution, protected by the firm or simply so priviledged that they think in terms of being above the law. If pressed for an explanation most of them just say "everyone was doing it".

The inevitable blow back is here. More power to you who have put yourwords AND bodies on the line for the rest of us.

When the police FBI and courts do not do their job its up to us to do ours.

Thank you.


03 Nov 11 - 01:36 PM (#3249767)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk

Their legendary hegemony in that regard is coming under serious threat. ;-)


03 Nov 11 - 02:12 PM (#3249793)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Donuel

The hegemony was acutely aware of blowback. That is what has driven the rise in security scams, cameras, Xray trucks, sound cannons and stuff too cruel to mention. The security systems they have bought and sold were designed to work against patriotic civilian populations as much as they were designed to thwart terrorism.


03 Nov 11 - 02:24 PM (#3249799)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk

I agree, Donuel, but I wasn't referring to that. We cross-posted. I was referring to Spleen Cringe's last post about bad tempered threads.


03 Nov 11 - 02:29 PM (#3249800)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Spleen Cringe

Grins...


03 Nov 11 - 06:02 PM (#3249950)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Heck of a food fight while I was away... That Cheeze-Whiz on the ceiling???

But at the end of the day, bearded bruce, can't produce much more than hot air in trying to prove that the left is as well funded as the right... But it was plenty of hot air... Surprised that it didn't melt down Max's computers...

Fact is that it would take 100 George Soroses to get in the same league as the Koch brothers alone... Throw in the hundreds of million$$$ that the health insurance companies have funneled thru Dick Aremy's FreddomWorks its it's no wonder when you need a per-authorization before you can get them to pay for anything that they automatically say, "NO"... They don't have any $$$ left after buying politicians and making their boatt and McMansion payments, poor dears...

B~


03 Nov 11 - 08:31 PM (#3250041)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,TIA

There's talkers, and there's do'ers.
Shut up and do.


03 Nov 11 - 08:34 PM (#3250044)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Right on, TIA...

Too much hot air, subterfuge, smoke, mirrors and out right lies coming from the righties...

Normal for them...

B~


03 Nov 11 - 09:26 PM (#3250069)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Suffet

Greetings:

Marilyn and I been doing, but we have taken most of the week off and we will be at the Eisteddfod Traditional Music Festival this weekend. If all goes well, we will return to Zuccotti Park this coming Monday or Tuesday with more home cooked food and home spun songs to share.

Meanwhile, if you are on Facebook, please check out Occupy Folk Music.

--- Steve


04 Nov 11 - 04:41 PM (#3250399)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,TIA

Good on ya Steve.
I'm off to DC this weekend with a vanload of students.
Hoping for nice weather, but will put up with whatever.
Apparently I can submit my gas receipt to George Soros.
Who knew!?!


04 Nov 11 - 06:25 PM (#3250464)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus

In a movement that claims no leadership and operates by consensus, how can it disavow the actions of window breakers? What's the mechanism?


04 Nov 11 - 06:26 PM (#3250466)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

They were Republicans, Dick.


04 Nov 11 - 06:33 PM (#3250477)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox

The 99% does not refer to a political group or collection of views.

It refers to those who aren't part of the 1% that controls the vast majority of the wealth.

The occupy movement refers to those members of the 99% who wish to hold corporatioons to account and who wish to return the political system from corporatocracy to democracy - ie - where those with the money do not have exclusive political rights and influence, but the same access to government and the same political power as every other individual.

The Tea Party is made up of some members of the 99%, but was orchestrated by the 1%.

Its an interesting mix of boundary definitions, but one that does stand up to scrutiny.

Just because you are on the side of the slaveowner, doesn't make you less of a slave.


04 Nov 11 - 07:06 PM (#3250511)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox

We've had this alleged link between Soros and OWS mentioned on here before.

It doesn't add up - the occupy movement is happening in Spain,, Greece, Tel Aviv, London etc etc etc

The Tea Party is exclusively American.

Why?

Because one was orchestrated and the other was Grass Roots.

The OWS in America happened After the ones in Spain,, Greece and Tel Aviv.

Soros' connection to OWS is so tenuous as to be non existent - he owns a company that has links to a paper that once expressed a similar idea to the occupy protests ...

But the occupy thing has been the result of sicial media udoing two things 1. undermining mainstream media and 2. bringing hitherto isolated people together and repoliticaizing jaded apathetic society.

To control the people, you need to control the information and keep them divided.

Social media and the internet have totally undermined both of these.

We should be happy.


04 Nov 11 - 07:15 PM (#3250521)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

No leaders, dick, and no decisions are two different things... There are decisions made every day by various OWSer groups... The Oakland OWS has spoken thru it's own "general assembly" to denounce the people who acted outside of OWS and did damage in Oakland...

As for decisions, the New York OWS group has received some donations and decided, thru a democratic vote in their general assembly to give $20,000 to the Oakland group...

These decisions are fascinating... It is democracy within the groups and unbeknownst to anyone who is not part of the OWS involves people getting up and saying what they think, much like a hearing, and then a vote... Everyone at the general assembly has a vote...

B~


04 Nov 11 - 09:05 PM (#3250570)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Donuel

Scott Walker is spending 80 million bucks of Koch money just for the recall vote.

Get ready to witness the first ever 4 BILLION dollar election.
(this is the result of corporate lobbyests winning the unlimited money decision and unlimited super pac money bypassing many campaign finance laws in place for a century.)

With any luck one Jib Jab video will nullify 2 billion dollars worth of corporate ads.

FOlks like the Koch Bros feel like they are so close to a complete takeover of the government by defunding and COngress by paid stooge, they will pull out all the stops. I think we all sense the showdown.


04 Nov 11 - 09:10 PM (#3250572)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Yeah, the Kochs are throwing the house at Ohio and Wisconsin... They are scared that the Dems will make them stop polluting our air and poisoning our water...

B~


04 Nov 11 - 09:47 PM (#3250586)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Donuel

(from another thread but fits best here)

The last 10 years.

Imagine the paranoia of a German Jew in 1934.
The mood is omninous but still attributable to silly paranoia.

Gradually it feels more real until overnight on Krystalnacht there is longer room for doubt for victims and perpetraors alike.

Year seven of the Bush administration felt similar to 1936 Germany.
caged pens for free speech, homeland security researching the books people checked out of my local library, warrentless wiretaps, secret break ins to homes, personal firebombs found in yard, sick and evil rumor campaigns, patriotic war cries ad absurdum. with us or against us, tip lines, focused hate campaigns on the radio 24/7, no travel bans, push for national IDs and birth certifide passports to visit Canada, jailing people without rule of law but by Presidential order, TORTURE...

Yeah it was getting hairy here. Then they took all the money supply away and gave it to the Uber rich.

Suddenly the super patriot saw himself as a target and victim of der leader and wised up at least to the point of suspicion. Then he lost his job, his house, his [ension, unemployment insurance, food stamps, and all the talk radio shock troops had a different ring to it. Mr uber patriot was mad but twisted into a neurotic pretzel.
At least his guns and Bible remained unchanged. But then a BLACK man is President? This was the fault of those socialist intellectuals for sure. Then a rumor that Obama would take away the ammunition led to an all time hoarding and mass sales of bullets the country has ever seen. Now the former Bush patriot had all the guns and ammunition but not their kids, they still went to war. Some did not return. All the Hope and all the change did not bring jobs back to Bush patriots again. Joe the patriot joined a prefabricated Tea Party to vent real anger. They were told to vent that anger at the balck guy who made death panels and evil Obamacare...go scream at a town hall meeting... we know the rest.

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
If the economic collapse did not occure until after the election, McCain and Palin would in fact be in office and corporate fascism would have devoured even more to the point of 50% unemployment, no auto companies left and no means to counter actual stark starvation in America.
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Believe me, the current Depression could have been much worse. The form of fascist corporate dictatorship during the Bush years would have evolved into something similar to 1938 Germany.

We are not out of the Bush woods yet. Today America has more factory prisons than Germany. Like exEnron employees going to Wall St, the remenants of the neo con fascists are lurking for a reincarnation.

Thank God OWS has spread now !!!!!!
If it had waited even another year, the crack down by police authority could possibly be similar to Syria.


04 Nov 11 - 10:04 PM (#3250599)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Donuel

Ney beered bruce,

The Tea party angry person (as opposed to a Koch Bros/Dick Army operative) and an OWS person are each angry and in need of a system change, equally.

There is a cross over. You won't see it on FOX but it is there.

A gulf will remain between the Hannity-LImbaugh addict tea party person and a concerned OWS person of any age. The problem there is one of intelligence and indoctrination. Its what I call the 20% loon factor which will always outweigh factual commonalities that would normally bind victimized Americans together.

Have a beer on me.



I have always seen the Tea party as a pre fabricated niche made to contain the religious right within a Republican structure despite the mistrust and betrayal the base had with the Republican regieme.

Think tanks warned of blow back so a holding pen was built to contain those running for the exits. It was a good plan but (to put it in a kind way) it did not hold the 99% of people who tend to be a wee bit nore informed.


04 Nov 11 - 10:35 PM (#3250605)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: bobad

Plus ça change

"The modern concentration of wealth is fantastic. The wealthiest one percent of Americans own more than 80 percent of all personal shares of stock. From World War II until the mid-Fifties, the 50 biggest corporations increased their manufacturing production from 17 to 23 percent of the national total, and the share of the largest 200 companies rose from 30 to 37 percent. To regard the various decisions of these elites as purely economic is short-sighted: their decisions affect in a momentous way the entire fabric of social life in America. Foreign investments influence political policies in under-developed areas -- and our efforts to build a "profitable" capitalist world blind our foreign policy to mankind's needs and destiny. The drive for sales spurs phenomenal advertising efforts; the ethical drug industry, for instance, spent more than $750 million on promotions in 1960, nearly for times the amount available to all American medical schools for their educational programs. The arts, too, are organized substantially according to their commercial appeal aesthetic values are subordinated to exchange values, and writers swiftly learn to consider the commercial market as much as the humanistic marketplace of ideas. The tendency to over-production, to gluts of surplus commodities, encourages "market research" techniques to deliberately create pseudo-needs in consumers -- we learn to buy "smart" things, regardless of their utility -- and introduces wasteful "planned obsolescence" as a permanent feature of business strategy. While real social needs accumulate as rapidly as profits, it becomes evident that Money, instead of dignity of character, remains a pivotal American value and Profitability, instead of social use, a pivotal standard in determining priorities of resource allocation."

From: Port Huron Statement of the Students for a Democratic Society, 1962


05 Nov 11 - 07:43 AM (#3250719)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox

Indeed Bobad,

Though in fact things have changed .... the wealth has become considerably more concentrated than it was in the 60's...

Which I know entirely backs up your point, but I felt it might be helpful to nit pick in a friendly way for a change.


05 Nov 11 - 08:05 AM (#3250734)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: goatfell

Good for them ,time we got rid of the fat cats and the fat cat supporters


06 Nov 11 - 12:30 AM (#3251122)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,TIA

blah, blah, blah...
Who's is going to DC tomorrow?
No more f'ing talk.
Get In The Streets People!

(not talking to you Bobert, Steve and a few others)


06 Nov 11 - 12:38 AM (#3251124)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

I know there are those on here that thinks the Democrats are 'clean' and supporting the OWS....because the Democrats are against Wall Street, and for the '99%-ters'....just like this one It's not the 'party' its the CORRUPTION..for the milllionth time! .
Hey Bobert, you still didn't spin the other one yet..about 'Fast and Furious'....(Hassenfus and his C-5A revisited)!

Corruption is NOT limited to just any one party!

GfS


06 Nov 11 - 04:34 AM (#3251204)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

"Corruption is NOT limited to just any one party!"

Where on the thread did anyone say THAT?


06 Nov 11 - 06:09 PM (#3251647)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Stringsinger

"Occupy Atlanta was broken up last night by the police. The arrests were peaceful. The mayor was quoted as saying that an AK-47 was spoted in the crowd earlier in the day."

It gets worse. A motorcycle cop deliberately rammed into a peaceful OWS member and had the nerve to arrest him after he had injured him. The police made a great show of bombast in military style to intimidate and incite the OWS but they were unable to do so. They were ludicrous in their employment of a swat team, a riot-geared baton wielding presence, horseback riders against a peaceful unarmed group of OWS of which I consider myself a part.

My wife and I took our banjo down to the park encampment and played and sang rewritten protest songs in honor of the demonstration. We left before the police acted but we followed the events on Occupy Atlanta site.

That day, my wife and I attended a General Assembly in the park (now named Troy Davis Park by the OWS) and were blown away at how organized it was, peaceful and tolerant in spite of one obstreperous disturbed street person. OWS Atlanta is feeding the hungry street people despite the Mayor Kasim Reed who closed down a woman and child center and another shelter sending occupants out on the street as well as intimidating us with a military storm trooper display. There were at least five arrests.

OWS is showing Americans why we are in trouble.


06 Nov 11 - 06:19 PM (#3251655)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Well, back in 1970 I was the rector of the Radical Student Union at VCU and we were having a meeting when two guys I didn't recognize as even being students at the university (not that I knew everyone but I knew the radicals) and these guys were talkin' about firebombing VCU's president's house there on campus...

Well, I knew about plants from other organizers I had met at other rallies so I put these guys out...

This is the stage where Boss Hog is going to pull a lot of dirty tricks on OWS chapters... Given the "pledge" that all OWSers take to abide by non-violence it is highly unlikely that any OWSer had an AK-47... We will be seeing more of Boss Hog's handiwork in the coming weeks...

"We won't get fooled again"... Yeah, we won't but the cops will...

B~


06 Nov 11 - 06:24 PM (#3251658)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Stringsinger

In Oakland, some of the hooded black suited vandals were seen talking to the police before the window smashing and fires.

Many of them may have been Agent Provacateurs hired by the police.

The AK47 in Atlanta was definitely not part of the OWS.


06 Nov 11 - 06:57 PM (#3251676)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

BTW, this idea that some folks have been pushing so hard about both parties being the same is BS... They aren't... The Dems are at best, bad... But the Rrepublicans, at best, are much worse... And this from an active OWSer...

We need to keep some reality in the discussion... And more $$$$ (way more) go to the Repubs by the corporations, especially since "Citizens United"...

B~


06 Nov 11 - 07:07 PM (#3251683)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

The WTO conference in Seattle in 1999 sparked a massive demonstration by union members and working stiffs all over the area. I mean massive! Depending on whose figures you believe, there were between 50,000 and 100,000 peaceful demonstrators, marching and chanting.

What turned it into what the press insisted on calling the "Battle in Seattle" was a band of about 200 interlopers that a friend of mine, a carpenter and construction worker who was participating in the, until then, peaceful protest, said were a bunch of thugs, some imported from eastern Oregon and others from northern Idaho (both reputed to be locations of neo-Nazi and "survivalist" paramilitary groups) who ran amok, smashing plate glass windows in downtown department stores and setting fires.

The next to arrive were the Seattle riot police, supplemented by reinforcements from police departments from neighboring municipalities, and the National Guard.

The peaceful protest got lost in all the mayhem. And the press had a ball!

Who the hell were these people and why were they there? Inquiring minds want to know.

I.e., who hired them? Any guesses?

Don Firth


06 Nov 11 - 07:19 PM (#3251690)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Same folks who hired the goons who disrupted the poll workers in the 2000 Florida recount...

B~


06 Nov 11 - 10:12 PM (#3251761)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: bobad

This is the kind of shit that has to go - not only in the US but in Canada too - nothing but bribery and influence peddling: Jack Abramoff


07 Nov 11 - 12:11 AM (#3251788)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

Thanks for posting that link, bodad. I saw the show and was about to post it, but you beat me to it.

Don Firth


07 Nov 11 - 07:16 AM (#3251893)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,TIA

We had the Whitehouse and Treasury block surrounded 3 to 5 people deep yesterday. Extremely light law enforcement presence. Totally peaceful. No count of how many people, but it had to be upwards of 10000.


07 Nov 11 - 11:14 AM (#3252059)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Good on ya'll, TIA... Maybe ya'll need to go out to Potomac or Loudoun counties and surround a few Boss Hog houses...

B~


07 Nov 11 - 11:40 AM (#3252079)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,TIA

Yup, that's coming.


07 Nov 11 - 01:39 PM (#3252199)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

And K Street...

B~


07 Nov 11 - 02:14 PM (#3252237)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce

Well, Bobert, the Left has a record of mobbing peoples houses and threatening their families. But it would be better if OWS kept to picketing the business place, and left the families alone.

Otherwise, it looks too much like the clan attacking black families in the south.



btw, I think the following is the action of a small subset of the OWS- and not representative of the group. Yet it IS an example f how the movement is being co-opted towards violent ends that will rebound against their goals.



"Occupy DC Protesters assaulted conservatives as they exited an Americans For Prosperity "Tribute to Ronald Reagan" dinner.

This elderly woman, 78 years old, rode 11 hrs on a bus from Detroit to attend the dinner. After the attack she was taken to hospital with multiple injuries, a bloody nose which developed after the fall, and a large knot on her head. After x-rays and a CAT scan, she was released the following morning with cuts and large bruises."


07 Nov 11 - 03:35 PM (#3252311)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

BB, I watched the video several times. All the Occupy DC folks are facing the other way and chanting as the woman is getting off the bus with several other people behind her, also getting off the bus. One does not see anyone PUSH her. It is far more likely that, on the bottom step of the bus's door, she stumbled and fell.

Fox News and eleventy-fourteen Right-Wing web sites glommed onto it and made a lot of assumptions from no clear evidence. In fact, what evidence there is indicates that she stumbled on the last step. Or was pushed from behind by someone getting off the bus, quite probably by accident.

With lots of folks, the only exercise they get is leaping to conclusions.

Don Firth


07 Nov 11 - 05:27 PM (#3252397)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.

Otherwise, it looks too much like the clan attacking black families in the south.

Hard to make out if this is a statement from an ignoramus, an idiot, or a jackass.

Perhaps just more BBBS, BBBS.


07 Nov 11 - 05:48 PM (#3252413)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Yeah, there will bo co-opting pf OWS... There will be "plants", however, who will do dumb stuff to try to discredit OWS... Everyone in OWS pledges non-violence, including respecting private property...

I don't recall any protestors going to people homes... I'm sure it has occurred but not enough to make it look copy-cat...

B~


07 Nov 11 - 06:40 PM (#3252447)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Don Firth

As I mentioned above, about the 1999 "Battle in Seattle," somewhere between 50,000 and 100,000 people marching and demonstrating peacefully, and some 200 goons from out-of-state try to turn the peaceful demonstration into a riot. Then, of course, the news services dub it the "Battle in Seattle" (very clever!), ignored the tens of thousands of peaceful demonstrators and focused on the smashed plate glass windows, the fires set in Dumpsters, and the riot police and their night-sticks.

And, of course, what those tens of thousands of peaceful demonstrators were protesting about got lost in the clouds of smoke and tear gas.

Someone's fine Machiavellian hand is behind that sort of thing, counting on the idea that the news services are going to gleefully concentrate on any violence that occurs. "If it bleeds, it leads!"

Trying to focus peoples' attention on the few random acts of violence (most of which are manufactured) and blowing them all out of proportion is an attenpt to get people to forget what the demonstration is all about in the first place. Same old same old!

Don Firth


07 Nov 11 - 07:02 PM (#3252460)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Corporate media is out to destroy OWS... It won't give a fair accounting no matter what...

B~


07 Nov 11 - 07:57 PM (#3252483)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: gnu

Violence in the streets will do no good. Violence in the homes of those that perpetrate the war on the poor will. The governments of the west, on behalf of the rich of the west (and east, north and south), perpetrate same in the houses of the rich in foreign countries. They throw cruise missiles around like toys and subjugate the poor in those foreign lands and in their own lands. Death away and at home.

Fuck Wall Street. Camp on their fucking lawns. And bring some ordinance. Because that might make the fuckers understand.


07 Nov 11 - 08:09 PM (#3252490)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Yeah... Seems that the DC OWS group is going to march on the homes of the rich... That's a good start...

B~


07 Nov 11 - 09:32 PM (#3252523)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST

Gnu-
If you're bringing ordinance, make sure the other side doesn't have you out-gunned.


08 Nov 11 - 01:16 AM (#3252595)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,TIA

Hate to be pedantic...
ordinance is a law or regulation.
ordnance is explosive.
Spent too much time detecting unexploded ordnance to let it pass.


08 Nov 11 - 03:05 PM (#3252993)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus

Guest TIA-
Thanx. It's a distinction of which I should have been aware, but wasn't.


08 Nov 11 - 03:11 PM (#3252998)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce

"
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Nov 11 - 05:27 PM

Otherwise, it looks too much like the clan attacking black families in the south.

Hard to make out if this is a statement from an ignoramus, an idiot, or a jackass.

Perhaps just more BBBS, BBBS."




I can see why Greggie is upset- The Klan always is upset when it is not spelled the way they want.


08 Nov 11 - 03:55 PM (#3253030)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: gnu

Oops... my bad TIA.

"If you're bringing ordinance, make sure the other side doesn't have you out-gunned."

I was asked at an interview for RMC (I was accepted at 18 years of age but didn't go... long story) if I would give the orders to fire on Canuck civilians if ordered to do so by the government during insurrection. "No." I'll not tell the whole conversation but in the end, the colonel essentially said the CAF had more than enough firepower to take out the citizens. I asked, "Who would they govern?"

Deal is, if it comes down to brass tacks, the government (read, the rich) will "win", but it will cost them and I don't think they will be willing to pay that cost.

On that happy note, have fun with it. It is a never-ending discussion. Until it comes down to brass tacks and anyone who doesn't think that can happen in the good-ol-USA oughta pick up a history book.


08 Nov 11 - 04:51 PM (#3253061)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk

Dang right, BB. The Klan hates their name being spelt wrong. They probably have Greg down on their blacklist now... ;-)


08 Nov 11 - 05:43 PM (#3253111)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,jts

Wasn't it bruce that initiated the misspelling

Bruce your statement is pretty out of line. Protesting that the Koch's should pay their share of taxes and should not have extraordinary access to free speech is hardly the same as a burning cross on a poor man's lawn. But it is no more out of line than all of the "class warfare" BS your sources propagate.


08 Nov 11 - 06:17 PM (#3253130)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox

Its just absurd anyway when you consider the whole tea party "Obama isn't American" and "Obama is an Islamist" nonsense that goes on.

The tea party is a load of wasps defending their privileged status.

The tea party is all about the NRA etc.

If anyone has similarities with the Klan its the Kochs - the 2 K's ...

There's kind of a wild desperation in comparisons like BB's KKK 'parallel' that leaves me pretty weirded out.

And I wonder how he would feel if an inappropriate comparison were made with the holocaust?

No - I don't think OWS, a pro civil rights and pro democracy movement can be compared sanely to 300 years of lynchings and other abuses of African Americans.


09 Nov 11 - 12:33 AM (#3253266)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus

The repeal of the anti-union law in Ohio today is a prime example of what a popular movement with a specific objective can accomplish. And I didn't notice anyone beating a drum.


09 Nov 11 - 01:09 AM (#3253271)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

bobad,
    Until I listened to the Abramoff, 60 minute interview, I believed that we could fix our broken government by simply taking the corporate money out of our politics, by publicly funding elections we could have our elected officials actually working for ALL the American people, for a change. But I did not understand the extent of the
corruption problem we face.
It is no longer just a case of corporate money flowing from lobbyist's to either elect or destroy a candidate, they have gone further. They basically get the Congress members chief of staff in their pocket. This is the same, or even better, than the member of Congress, the chief of staff controls everything the member sees or doesn't see, and is even able to insert secret legislation into complicated and lengthy bills, often without the members fully understanding it's implications. But they have gone even further and cut out the middleman altogether. Now that the Koch Tea Party has managed to get dozens of their "Trojan Horse" candidates elected, not just to Congress, but also to Governorships all around the country, the elected official can be manipulated directly.

Go to the link for a transcript of excerpts from the interview, or you can watch the interview itself.


text and interview

How many partisan clones out there think corporations could do their corruption....without corrupt politician's help???

The rest is nonsensical political posturing!

GfS


09 Nov 11 - 01:33 AM (#3253275)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Little Hawk

Yeah, that article and video are really something. The extent of corruption revealed by Mr Abramoff is incredible. It's like a pandemic that has poisoned the entire existing system of government.


09 Nov 11 - 01:54 AM (#3253277)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Yeah, I was going to post something about it earlier, but I figured everyone was into the partisan bullshit, and it wouldn't have sunk in!!..Thanks to 'Bobad' for bringing it up!
I'm thinking the rest, except for a few, are alternating between Herman Cain, and Kim Kardasian!..for their mental stimulation!

I think it both disgusting, and disappointing that so-called 'hip' people are so screwed up, and have no fucking clue!

Regards Hawk!!

GfS


09 Nov 11 - 01:55 AM (#3253278)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Hey!..Were you ever able to open up those attachments???

GfS


09 Nov 11 - 08:03 AM (#3253447)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

So Jack Abramoff is the excuse de jour on why people should just sit on their hands and not even try to be part of fixing out messed up country... There are always people like that...

Martin Niemoller was addressing those folks when he penned , "And then they came for me..."

But if it makes the "classless and free" all warm and fuzzy then screw 'um... Their choice... There's are alternatives and OWS is out there putting the pressure on the system...

If any of the "classless and free" have a better idea then put it out there... If not then it's all just SSDD from them...

B~


09 Nov 11 - 08:24 AM (#3253458)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Suffet

Greetings:

Regarding Bobert's comment Corporate media is out to destroy OWS... It won't give a fair accounting no matter what...: When I was last at OWS in New York two days ago, I saw a camera and sound crew bring their own model to stand among the crowds in Zuccotti Park holding up a large hand-painted sign that read:

Ask not what you can do for your country.
Ask what your country can do for you.


That's just the thing to show how selfish those OWS people really are!

The model was a middle aged man wearing an old army jacket and jeans. How did I know he was a model? Because I saw the crew set him up and even dust him with a little powder for the camera. The equipment had no markings that I could see, so I have no idea where the crew was from.

That same day, all the New York newspapers carried stories of how Zuccotti Park has been riddled with violent crime. Each paper had its own spin depending upon its political outlook and journalistic standards, but the intent was obviously the same: to discredit OWS and to scare people away.

The truth is that there have been a handful of serious incidents, including a sexual assault for which the NYPD made an arrest. But rather than ignoring the problem or trying to hide it, the people at OWS have addressed it directly through the General Assembly, through a series of special meetings, and through several working groups. The result has been increased security through various strategies ranging from traditional (recruiting and training big, imposing looking security volunteers) to less traditional (recruiting and training volunteers in nonviolent conflict resolution).

If you spend any time in Zuccotti Park, you will not find it be threatening, hostile, or dangerous. Instead you will find it to be mellow, friendly, and inviting. Marilyn and I spent yesterday preparing food that we will bring there today. All the dishes we made are vegan. Even though we are not even vegetarians, let alone vegans, we figure that anyone can eat vegan food. Also, if things get rough, you can attack your opponents with our cold sesame noodles. :-)

The bottom line is don't uncritically accept anything the media have to say. They all serve the interests of their corporate owners.

--- Steve


09 Nov 11 - 08:46 AM (#3253477)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Well, Steve... When I think of what we OWSers are doing the old Who verse. "We won't be fooled again" shouts in my head... I remember vividly hearing "plants" come into our Radical Student Union and try to sway people to fire bomb the university's president's house...

History does repeat itself when people don't know it... I think OWS fully understand history and know exactly what Boss Hog is capable of doing... Boss Hog, after all, has a lot to lose here... It will get worse... The "plants" are being trained as we speak... It's up to OWS to push, push and push again for people to pledge non-violence... And non-violence extends to property, other people's space and just practicing civility while also not backing away from core beliefs...

Ya'll stay at it and I'll do the same...

B~


09 Nov 11 - 09:09 AM (#3253489)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST

So which is it Bobert?

Lynch Boss Hog or respect non-violence? And who decides who Boss Hog is? How about all landowners with more than 5 acres ( a little over the amount needed for a sustaining wood fuel source)?


Bobert:"It's up to OWS to push, push and push again for people to pledge non-violence... And non-violence extends to property, other people's space and just practicing civility while also not backing away from core beliefs..."


Bobert:"Good on ya'll, TIA... Maybe ya'll need to go out to Potomac or Loudoun counties and surround a few Boss Hog houses..."


09 Nov 11 - 09:09 AM (#3253490)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce

Sorry, mine



So which is it Bobert?

Lynch Boss Hog or respect non-violence? And who decides who Boss Hog is? How about all landowners with more than 5 acres ( a little over the amount needed for a sustaining wood fuel source)?


Bobert:"It's up to OWS to push, push and push again for people to pledge non-violence... And non-violence extends to property, other people's space and just practicing civility while also not backing away from core beliefs..."


Bobert:"Good on ya'll, TIA... Maybe ya'll need to go out to Potomac or Loudoun counties and surround a few Boss Hog houses..."


09 Nov 11 - 09:25 AM (#3253504)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Bringing attention is what the movement is about, bruce... Non-violence doesn't mean playing "lap dog"... It doesn't mean not bringing pressure on those who are the culprits... It does mean respecting their "property"... That means, surround their houses but stay off their manicured lawns... That's non-violence... That's what Dr. King would have us do...

Face it, some folks are going to be uncomfortable... But that's their problem for being crooks and cheats... OWS didn't make them crooks and cheats...

No lynching here... That's stuff is in ya'll's tool box of dirty tricks and militaristic inhumanity... History is full of ya'll's lynchings but you won't find one example where civil rights or anti-war folks have lynched anyone... Thousands of lynchings in America's past and all of them done by the right wing on people they were oppressing...

I know... History sucks... Facts suck... Too bad... Not our problem... Yours...

B~


09 Nov 11 - 10:27 AM (#3253547)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce

"surround their houses but stay off their manicured lawns."

And that is within bounds- BUT not what the SEIU did to the BoA VP's family.

As long as the property is not trespassed on, and people physically threatened, I have no problem with protestors demonstrating.


09 Nov 11 - 10:42 AM (#3253565)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce

btw,

"History is full of ya'll's lynchings "

Fuck off!


09 Nov 11 - 11:33 AM (#3253600)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,TIA

Police from several jurisdictions were at the SEIU protest.
Where any arrests made? Any citations for anything?


09 Nov 11 - 11:41 AM (#3253613)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce

"Easton says 14 school buses brought demonstrators from the Service Employees International Union and the National Political Action Group, carrying signs and bullhorns up Baer's front steps to denounce bank foreclosures. She writes Baer's teenage son was alone in the house and locked himself in the bathroom until his dad was able to get home."


09 Nov 11 - 12:09 PM (#3253642)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce

http://biggovernment.com/files/2010/05/seiu-MOB.jpg


09 Nov 11 - 12:17 PM (#3253651)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

And it is worth repeating for the 10th time: OWSers pledge "non violence" but not everyone that attends these rallies are OWSers... Some are crazy anarchists... Some are right wing plants... Some may even be government plants... But prior to marches during the General Assembly the folks who set out from that camp are instructed and agree to non-violence...

But that doesn't play into the corporate agenda so this story cannot be told on their media...

B~


09 Nov 11 - 01:39 PM (#3253715)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,TIA

That is a nice photo (from Andrew Breitbart's website - no agenda there I am sure).
But were there any arrests?
Any citations?


09 Nov 11 - 01:50 PM (#3253724)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Stringsinger

Dick, with all due respect, you don't get it. There are many issues that are intertwined and a single issue doesn't mean anything. Leadership is everyone, not just one ego-driven politician or speaker that hops in front of the parade.

If you really dig, you'll find out why this movement is so powerful and why it doesn't need a bumper sticker or sound byte.

The 1% control Bilderbergers, the Military Industrial Complex, the Media, the War Contractors, the corporate control of congress and the senate and the two parties,
the diversionary red-herring called deficit reduction which translated is robbing the public and penalizing the poor as well as the destruction of labor unions. Anybody who is awake knows what the OWS is about.

It ain't about Goldman Sachs or Timothy Geithner. Obama better put on his sneakers.


09 Nov 11 - 01:52 PM (#3253726)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.

Asking Beardie to produce citations, references or facts is a fool's errand- as should be patently obvious to anyone with even a limited recollection of his past posts.


09 Nov 11 - 02:15 PM (#3253744)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce

Guest TIA,
No citations were issued, nor arrests. JUst as none have been in the case of the bankers and Wall Street firms- so I take it you object to the OWS complaining since there were no arrests to justify them?????


09 Nov 11 - 02:41 PM (#3253767)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.

none have been in the case of the bankers and Wall Street firms

Now, THAT is the most hilarious thing I've read in a LONG time!


09 Nov 11 - 02:48 PM (#3253772)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce

Greggie,

Are you REALLY stupid, or just an ass?


09 Nov 11 - 02:56 PM (#3253776)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,jts

He may or may not be an ass, but it was pretty funny. You clearly implied that the the protesters has the same immunity from the law as the bankers. Ie that they were not being cited for the same reason that the bankers were not prosecuted for fraud. I doubt that was your intent. That is what makes it so funny.


09 Nov 11 - 03:08 PM (#3253786)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce

jts,

The SEIU demonstrators, which are what Guest TIA was referring to, WERE given immunity- AND A POLICE ESCORT TO PROTECT THEM. The juresdiction that they went to was not even notified.

I warned Bobert that there were those who had a different agenda, and would co-opt the OWS movement if they could. SEIU has demonstrated that they do NOT abide by the rules that Bobert is saying apply- and WHEN (not if) there are violations, it will be OWS, and not the Union thugs, that get the blame.


"
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 09 Nov 11 - 10:27 AM

"surround their houses but stay off their manicured lawns."

And that is within bounds- BUT not what the SEIU did to the BoA VP's family.

As long as the property is not trespassed on, and people physically threatened, I have no problem with protestors demonstrating."


09 Nov 11 - 03:41 PM (#3253809)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Suffet

Greetings:

Any movement that seriously challenges the established power structure must be ready to both take and to inflict casualties. Unless you are an absolute pacifist -- and very few people are -- you would consider adopting nonviolence for tactical and strategic reasons, not because it is a way of life. Most people believe there are times when organized violence is both justifiable and necessary. But they also believe those times are few and far between. That is essentially what Jefferson was saying when he wrote these words in the Declaration of Independence:

Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

What nonviolent activists like Gandhi and King have shown is that there are many options between passively suffering evil and resorting to armed struggle. If we Americans, as a people, accept Jefferson's argument that there are times when insurrectionary violence is justified, then there surely must be times when resistance short of violence is also justified. Such resistance will be organized, sustained, unpleasant, often illegal, but nevertheless nonviolent. That time has already arrived! Fortunately, the time for armed resistance has not yet come, and one hopes it never will. But it very well might.

In the meantime, let's not shed any tears for bankers whose front lawns get trampled. The little bitty "violence" that some union activists have inflicted upon a few blades is grass means absolutely nothing compared to the very real violence they have inflicted upon millions of their fellow human beings by driving them from their homes. Just remember that when the bankers foreclose a mortgage and evict a family, they have the armed might of the state at their disposal to enforce their so-called legal process.

Also remember that many successful nonviolent movements have worked in tandem, either openly or tacitly, with those who rejected nonviolence but who shared the same goals. For example, the nonviolent civil rights workers in the mid-1960s, often received the protection of the armed Deacons for Defense and Justice. Another example is the African National Congress in South Africa, which organized many nonviolent protests against apartheid, both large and small, but which also had an armed wing called Umkhonto we Sizwe, and which carried out guerilla warfare against the South African regime.

For the Occupy movement to organize its own Umkhonto we Sizwe at this time would be a terrible blunder, one that would turn people off and play right into the hands of those who would like nothing better than an excuse to obliterate the movement. But don't presume that the time can never come. And if it does, a lot more than a lawn or two will get trampled.

--- Steve


09 Nov 11 - 05:09 PM (#3253869)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Wall Street buys US government = Protester stepping on someone's lawn???

Come on, bruce... You are smarter than this argument...

Nice post, Steve...

B~


09 Nov 11 - 05:29 PM (#3253881)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox

The simple fact is this.

Nobody, ever in the history of the world, ever gave away political power.

Power has always been won in some sort of struggle, whether through non-violent non-cooperation, Unions and strikes, wars of independence, or revolutions.

Right now it can be said that the power lies in the hands of those with the money and their friends in congress, who coincidentally have money.

This is called corporatocracy - in the old days it was called feudalism.

The people want an equal share of power and they want proper remuneration for helping venture capitalists to build their businesses.

These things will not be given to them freely, they will have to be taken.

The tea party poses no threat to the ruling class of America, so there was no suppression.

OWS represents a threat to the ruling classes monopoly on power and resources and it is being resisted violently.

The fact is folks that this is about the people taking their political power back.

It will be a struggle. The power and the money will be guarded selfishly by those who possess them and they will do whatever it takes to protect their assetts.

The US government has shot its own people before on numerous occasions and chances are it will happen again. Native Americans, African Americans, Union activists, anti vietnam protesters, LBJ - how many kids have you killed today ... etc ...

But this time things are different.

This time there is social media - it undermines the propaganda machine and it undermines attempts to keep us divided and isolated.

"You will not be able to stay home brother,
you will not be able to plug in, turn on and cop out,
you will not be able to lose yourself on skag
and skip out for beer during commercials because
the revolution will not be televised brother".


09 Nov 11 - 05:36 PM (#3253889)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus

Frank--
I get it, though I'm not at all sure you do. THe Ohio protests were about something that could be remedied ---and was. OWS is very effective in letting people know that they're angry and unhappy; I can't really see what else they're accomplishing. All that anger, and all those people should be able to make changes if they direct their energy toward making those changes, rather than bitching about how unfairly they're treated (which they definitely are.)
Since we're not going to see a real revolution in the US in any of our lifetimes, developing political muscle is apt to be the only effective way to go.


09 Nov 11 - 06:02 PM (#3253907)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Lox

Dick - they're talking- they're discussing ideas - and they are responsible for a global discussion on these issues that is completely unprecedented.

Ideas are the key.

We rely on ideas.

Money is just a shared idea, as is law, and democracy, and human rights, the existence of nation states, property etc etc.

Ideas, like videos and songs, can go viral if they resonate with people.

There is an idea taking hold in popular consciousness that we don't really live in a democracy, but that our lives are dictated by a small bunch of reckless and selfish oligarchs.

People are talking about how to deal with it.

At some point a critical mass may be reached and for all our sakes lets hope that the sanest ideas win the battle of natural selection in peoples minds - because the list of alternatives could include disorder on a scale that makes the london riots look like a school trip.

This isn't about what you or I think is ideologically sound, or what you and I agree is a more or less effective tool of change.

This is about recognizing that something is different about the way people are behaving.

They are not content to just protest and go home after receiving a few shallow assurances - they are going to hang on while the idea slowly takes root that we can and must change the status quo and reassert our right to genuine democratic power, and they are going to hang on until the inevitable gravity of a sustained protest draws enough people so that a critical mass is achieved - at which point something will happen.


09 Nov 11 - 06:47 PM (#3253923)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.

Come on, bruce... You are smarter than this argument...

Obviously, NOT.


09 Nov 11 - 06:49 PM (#3253925)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Suffet

Heard today at Occupy Wall Street, Zuccotti Park, New York City:

Mic check!

Mic check!

See this man.

See this man.

He is the one.

He is the one.

Who has been stealing.

Who has been stealing.

From the donation box.

From the donation box.

Remember him.

Remember him.

He is not to be trusted.

He is not to be trusted.

Thank you.

Thank you.

OWS security volunteers then escorted the man from the park.

--- Steve


09 Nov 11 - 07:14 PM (#3253945)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

there is a reason why OWS isn't going to put forth 100 page "white papers" of policy, dick...

Then it turns the turf over the oligarchs who will us their vast wealth to twist details and then movement is over... Don't look for that... We are telling you what is wrong... Ya'll come up with some ideas that ya'll can argue over... If after ya'll fight over the meaning of the word "is" is then put your ideas out...

Here are the major beefs that OWS has:

1. Public financing for elections - no exceptions, no loopholes, no PACs, no Citizens United...

2. Income disparity - 10% can't control 90% of the wealth... That is not healthy...

3. Accountability (arrests and imprisonment) of Wall Street crooks...

4. Jobs, jobs, jobs (in the United States)...

5. Affordable college education...

Thems is just the basics...

B~


09 Nov 11 - 09:53 PM (#3254028)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus

What the popular movement did in Ohio worked. Looking at Bobert's list of objectives, I applaud them all, but nobody on Wall Street (which is what OWS is occupying) is either willing nor capable of advancing those objectives. Sort of like screaming at your mailman because you got fired from your job.


09 Nov 11 - 10:02 PM (#3254030)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

No, dick.... Wall Street is the perfect "Bad Guy"... It is responsible for how American business works and it ain't working for average Americans... It's working for the rich and the rich only... Wall Street and their buddies are sitting on $2T in cash that they won't invest in America... They use every excuse except "My dog ate my homework"... Reality is that this $$$ is going to open new businesses overseas and dump more American worker's jobs...

No, dick... Wall Street is the correct target...

B~


09 Nov 11 - 11:02 PM (#3254051)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

What a BIG distraction from the REAL story! The OWS crowd has everyone siding with their antic, instead of getting to the root of the source..and of course, the 'politicos' are tying to make such big 'hay' over it....and the story really boils down, and lays at the feet of the 'Fed', Goldman Sachs...and the corrupt bullshit foisted on the American people, either side, and both, to convince them of reasons how to rifle every buck they can steal from the taxpayers...even to the extent of fucking the economy....to be evenly paired with the poorest of nations...while the guys in charge,(a corporate/political cabal) live like kings, and dictate to their loyal followers to look, and blame every one else but them!..............SUCKERS!

GfS

Oh, and P.S......when asked to participate....all I can say is This
Enjoy!

GfS


09 Nov 11 - 11:12 PM (#3254054)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

More "Life sucks, get over, there is nothing you can do"...

YAWN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

B~


09 Nov 11 - 11:54 PM (#3254071)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

That's what you get for thinking down, all the time!!!

I'm fine.....and not taken in by all the bullshit...you should have known that, by now!..

GfS

Maybe you can imagine a life without the political bullshit....(yikes!)


10 Nov 11 - 09:34 AM (#3254234)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: dick greenhaus

Bobert-Go ahead. Drum them into capitulation. I'd rather round up votes and help regulate the greedy bastards.


10 Nov 11 - 09:49 AM (#3254245)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST

Bobert,

If you violate the law, you should be prepared to suffer the consequences. If it worth doing, that should not stop you- BUT don't complain when the law is applied.

As I keep saying, the vast majority of OWS are well meaning, peaceful, concerned individuals- BUT there are those that will take advantage of them to advance their own agendas- ON BOTH SIDES. Your continuous bitching about he right, and your unreasonable statements about lynchings will do more to reduce support for your point of view than to encourage it.

How many of YOUR relatives have had their homes or stores burned out by a racist mob, and then been told that they had the wrong skin color to get any government aid to rebuild??


10 Nov 11 - 09:50 AM (#3254247)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce

sorry, above was me




Bobert,

If you violate the law, you should be prepared to suffer the consequences. If it worth doing, that should not stop you- BUT don't complain when the law is applied.

As I keep saying, the vast majority of OWS are well meaning, peaceful, concerned individuals- BUT there are those that will take advantage of them to advance their own agendas- ON BOTH SIDES. Your continuous bitching about he right, and your unreasonable statements about lynchings will do more to reduce support for your point of view than to encourage it.

How many of YOUR relatives have had their homes or stores burned out by a racist mob, and then been told that they had the wrong skin color to get any government aid to rebuild??


10 Nov 11 - 10:58 AM (#3254302)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150501128491978&set=a.10150486879871978.457516.705211977&type=1&theater


10 Nov 11 - 11:06 AM (#3254309)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

It's not really about that at all, bruce...

In law there is a concept of "proportion"... It's used all the time in plea bargains where charges are dropped because they are very minor compared to the larger ones... That's why the law isn't this "black and white" institution where every discretion must be prosecuted to the fullest extent... Lawyers and prosecutors alike fully understand this concept...

Here in Charlotte we had an example of misuse of the "letter of the law" where two OWSers were arrested for accidentally stepping off the sidewalk and their feet touched the gutter below... They didn't mean to do but the crowd was so packed that it kinda inadvertently pushed them off the sidewalk... At the very same time there were dozens of news photographers in the street taking pictures of the demonstrations who had no permits to be in the streets who were not so much as asked by the police to get out of the street???

Yo, dick...

I do both... I have worked campaigns in the past and will again... I write my letters to newspapers and congressmen... The problem here is one of changing an entire national conversation and without the OSW movement a billion letters and door knocking won't do that... OWS is out here loosening up the propaganda filled minds and that is long overdue...

B~


10 Nov 11 - 11:12 AM (#3254314)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce

Bobert,

So, if the Klan decides to demonstrate around someone's house and family because they do not like what someone in that house is doing ( such as civil rights work) YOU would think it ok???


I see an attempt to frighten and intimidate in BOTH cases Klan and OWS. And BOTH are wrong, when that line ( of property) is crossed. The difference between the SEIU actions and those of a Klan mob are in the color of the costumes. I recall several cases in the 60's of Klan being escorted by local ( sympathetic ) police to rallies intended to intimidate those that they disagreed with.


10 Nov 11 - 11:45 AM (#3254332)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,999

"The problem here is one of changing an entire national conversation and without the OSW movement a billion letters and door knocking won't do that... OWS is out here loosening up the propaganda filled minds and that is long overdue..."

Well said, Bobert.

#########################################

BB, comparing the actions of the KKK with the actions of OWS indicates that your 'sense of proportion' seems to be a bit outta whack I think. It's just a slur and not a comparison. Address instead the photographers in the street without permits to be there and the arrest of two OWS supporters who by accident put foot on the street. Don't that seem just a bit more outta whack to you?


10 Nov 11 - 12:08 PM (#3254344)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce

The arrest of the two OWS was IMO wrong.

The FAILURE to arrest the SEIU who intimidated the 14 year old son of a BoA VP in his home is also, IMO wrong.

999, Are you saying that there should be one set of laws that apply to those you agree with, and another that apply to those you disagree with???

I consider that BOTH the Klan and the SEIU , when they overstep the boundaries of the law, should be arrested and charged. If either stays within the law, they should not be arrested, no matter how I disagree with them. Intimidation in support of something I agree with is still intimidation.

Yet it seems many here do not agree with that.


10 Nov 11 - 12:25 PM (#3254356)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,jts

Bruce, I can't ever recall an example of a Klan member ever being arrested and charged for just standing on someone's lawn. In fact there are tens of thousands of examples of them getting away with much much worse. Do you think that boy was in danger of a lynching? Was there property damage from a burning cross, with the treat of lynching? Was a rock thrown through the window with the implied threat of lynching? Were little girls firebombed in their church? I didn't think so.

Don't immediately end this line of argument because it is racist and offensive. Which it is. Knock it off because it makes you look like and insensitive idiot.


10 Nov 11 - 12:31 PM (#3254359)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce

jts,

How many of YOUR relatives have had their homes or stores burned out by a racist mob, and then been told that they had the wrong skin color to get any government aid to rebuild??


10 Nov 11 - 12:47 PM (#3254364)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce

." In fact there are tens of thousands of examples of them getting away with much much worse."


Which YOU imply , by claiming special rules for those you support, would be ok as long as you agree with their goals.



MY point is that in order to apply the law to others it has to apply to YOU as well. If you want to have exceptions for what YOU like, you have no right to complain when others get those exceptions because someone supports what THEY like.

Not a matter of MY like or dislike, but one of fairness. Would YOU like the KKK to decide what is or is not intimidation? I WOULD NOT- Therefore, I do not want YOU deciding that the law only applies to those you dislike.

As to my choice of the Klan as an example, it was Bobert who declared ME responsible for lynchings- so when you get him to apologize, I can stop comparing what he advocates to the Klan. Until then, when he advocates the same tactics, or allows them to be used to support HIS cause without complaint I will call him on it.


10 Nov 11 - 12:50 PM (#3254367)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Bearded Bruce: "...I consider that BOTH the Klan and the SEIU , when they overstep the boundaries of the law, should be arrested and charged. If either stays within the law, they should not be arrested, no matter how I disagree with them. Intimidation in support of something I agree with is still intimidation.

Yet it seems many here do not agree with that."

I fully agree!..Not only that, the FAILURE or 'purposeful ignoring' of looking at the 'Corzine Corruption' where $600 MILLION was 'lost'; the Solyndra fraud, $535 million, and Solyndra executives were awarded quarterly bonuses worth up to $60,000 apiece earlier this year as the California solar-panel company headed for bankruptcy, Beacon Power Corp. @ $43 million; Jeff Immelt, being named 'Jobs Czar', and given $550 Billion to start jobs in CHINA!.. (as he dodges paying taxes here, 'Fast and Furious' to supply guns for the administrations drug buddies;....while 'funded protestors' march around the country wanting their 'debts forgiven'(Though I do agree that SOME attention has been called to the Wall Street/political corruption abuses); The Fed passing out TRILLIONS of taxpayer backed loan handouts all over the world, and NOT disclosing where, or to who; corporate bailouts, in the TRILLIONS(by both parties;........and people who 'like' THIS administration because they are Democrats make stupid lame excuses for them, WHILE ALLEGEDLY 'supporting' their bitches!!!????....
What a bunch of LAME, hypocritical, phony, bullshitters!!!!!!

It's time to get to the root cause, folks!...and quit making asses of yourselves!

GfS


10 Nov 11 - 01:08 PM (#3254378)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

OH!!...and there's a lot more!!!...but to minimize this bullshit down to the 'Klan' vs. the treatment of the OWS crowd, is a best, absolute asshole nonsense!! The 'so-called left' will shift the REAL issues into these microbial 'hate' and emotional topics...then try to slam you, with rhetoric, portraying those who have their fingers on the pulse, with being 'socially unjust'!!! WHAT A CROCK OF CRAP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GfS


10 Nov 11 - 01:33 PM (#3254396)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

CORRECTION!: Corzine 'lost' $663 Million, not $600 million.(besides corruptly screwing the people of New Jersey out of BILLIONS, while he was governor)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GfS


10 Nov 11 - 01:38 PM (#3254400)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Bobert

Okay, bruce... Here's the deal...

The Klan has a 130 year history of violence and murder...

OWS is non violent...

Any more illogical arguments???

B~


10 Nov 11 - 01:41 PM (#3254402)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce

Bobert

Here's the score:

YOU blame the right for lynchings- "Y'all"

YOU call the Tea Party Racist.

YOU are proposing the same kind of actions that the Klan used- thus YOU have the problem, not me.

If you blame me for lynchings, I will blame you for YOUR OWN CALLS FOR ACTION in violation of the law.

Cappish?


10 Nov 11 - 01:43 PM (#3254404)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce

Bobert, AS I POINTED OUT,

The OWS is being co-opted by small groups that ARE NOT NON-VIOLENT!!!

I am sure there were segregationists that were non-violent- Can YOU remember any? THAT is what the OWS will become, when you propose intimidation of those you disagree with.


10 Nov 11 - 02:00 PM (#3254422)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.

BB, comparing the actions of the KKK with the actions of OWS indicates that your 'sense of proportion' seems to be a bit outta whack...

"Bit outta whack", Bobert?? Hardly. It shows that he's a complete and utter frackin' IDIOT to propound somethindg so absurd.

Beardie is also the guy that, in the thread about cash only for second-hand goods, wanted us to know that the sponsor of the bill was a Dumb Ni--er.

Gimmie a break.


10 Nov 11 - 02:06 PM (#3254431)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce

"Beardie is also the guy that, in the thread about cash only for second-hand goods, wanted us to know that the sponsor of the bill was a Dumb Ni--er."

Care to show that, or do I ask you to removed from Mudcat?


10 Nov 11 - 02:13 PM (#3254445)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce

Greg F's comment is an out and out lie, and shows what kind of a person he is.

MUDELF= Please remove Greg F.


10 Nov 11 - 02:18 PM (#3254451)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce

sorry, computer went haywire.

Bobert, I suggest you curb your dog, Greg F. If he continues to make such false claims, it will detract from the purpose of this thread.


10 Nov 11 - 02:23 PM (#3254456)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Max

Elves don't like to be told what to do, just an FYI, especially by folks that are not logged in. Gets them cranky.

And why would you want it removed? It so clearly shows what he is, so I feel like we should leave it as a warning for the next person that engages him. Truly, though, I would hope it would convince them NOT to engage him.

I just popped in because I its getting around that the klan was being discussed in the Wall Street thread and I just had to see how that connection was made. As a student of thread creep this one intrigued me.

I see now. You know, anything is possible when you inject some idiocy. I'm disappointed because I assumed that 2 out of 3 of you folks here were bigger and better than being drawn in like that.

Carry on, just know that these such flammable topics are aloft and to tread lightly so we don't have so much work to do back here in the shop. It's tiring to clean up all that spilled garbage, and idiots always clog our shop vac.

We have to watch this stupid thread now, thanks.


10 Nov 11 - 02:28 PM (#3254461)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: beardedbruce

Very well, Max. But Gred F has crossed the line, bigtime. This is an outright lie, as can be seen by the thead in question THAT I DID NOT POST TO until today.


If this is the kind of person who encourages supporting OWS, I fail to see why ANYONE should give them any support whatsoever.


10 Nov 11 - 02:31 PM (#3254465)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.

For Max and Beardie's benefit, from the archives:

Subject: RE: BS: Louisiana Makes It Illegal To Use Cash
From: pdq - PM
Date: 23 Oct 11 - 07:37 PM

Just for the record, the idiot behind this bill is a member of the Louisiana House of Representitives.

He is Black and a Democrat.


10 Nov 11 - 02:44 PM (#3254472)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Greg F.

APOLOGIES TO BEARDIE!

I CONFUSED HIM WITH HIS FELLOW-TRAVELLER PDQ, and I freely admit my error.

HOWEVER, his comparing OWS with the KLAN is STILL idiotic and uncalled for.


10 Nov 11 - 02:48 PM (#3254476)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: beardedbruce

Your apology is NOT accepted.


10 Nov 11 - 02:52 PM (#3254480)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: GUEST,TIA

From OccupyWallStreet.org:

{Note that this is not an official statement since we don't have officials. It is the opinion of one, but well spoken and widely endorsed and acted upon}

"The Occupy Movement has stated that it is Non-Violent. While this has remained overwhelmingly true, there is, undeniably, a violent element that is using OWS as a place to hide. Smashed windows, paint on buildings, and even horrifically violent stories of rape are coming out of the encampments.

The truth of it is that once any kind of violent element emerges from the movement, the movement ceases to be about stopping corruption and greed and becomes a movement about stopping violence. This simply must be the case. People will look at the violence within our movement and point to it in order to damn us. Therefore, when violence happens from the movement, we must pause and deal with it before we do anything else.

What this means is that there must be an expectation of self enforcement. We have little difficulty standing in front of a police barricade and shouting "Shame Shame Shame" to Police officers who overstep their bounds, and abuse their power. What we haven't come to realize is that we too have power that we can abuse, and some of us do abuse that power.

The moment a person engages in a violent act, they are no longer part of the movement. They are part of the problem. Even more then that, they are the most important problem. If you have gathered in order to protest a banking institution, or a government official, that protest ceases and you should begin protesting against their violent act, instantly. You should be accepting that the protest is capable of changing in this regard, as internal violence is even more dangerous than external violence.

If you see someone spraying paint on the side of a building, you should stop and begin crying "Shame Shame Shame" at them. Whip out those video cameras. Condemn their Violence. Do not allow them to hide in our numbers.

Go even farther. Give the videos of the individuals who do violence to the Police. Report the violence to the media outlets directly. Show those institutions how hard we are working to destroy violence internally. Build a trust between yourselves and those who enforce and report on these things.


Go even farther. Publicly condemn all violence done by your movement, and by others to your movement. This should be topic one in all General Assemblies; to create a statement that you can give to all media outlets condemning the violence done. This should be done every single time a violent act happens that is even remotely connected to the movement. We must show the world that we are entirely intolerant of violence, in all forms. We must show the world that we are more then willing to work with them in order to shine a light on our own internal violence.

Go Even Farther. Set up a working group to educate people about what Non-Violence is. Create a Library filled with works that show Gandhi and Martin Luther King. Make us the primary source of Non-Violent Education.

This movement cannot become perceived as a violent movement. That should be the number one goal, before anything else. Violence is catalyzing and shocking. We need to respond to it with equal fervour, while remaining entirely Non-Violent. We must be able to stand our ground and say to those who detract "We have worked hard with Police Officials and Media outlets to destroy our own violence. We have released statement after statement condemning each individual act of violence. We have turned violent offenders over to Police Officials, and made those people known to all. What more would you like?"

If we are to say we are Non-Violent, we must fight to prove it."


10 Nov 11 - 02:54 PM (#3254482)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Max

I support freedom to believe and freedom to express.

Bruce, you're proving my theory that given enough time and words you can lose the favor of those who are agreeing with you.

Personally, I wouldn't let my mind go to "type of person" let alone write it into the historical record and sign it as you just did here. That's getting mighty close to argumentum ad hominem and an indication that you are running low on ammunition.

Then again, if this is the type of person who wastes their time in BS threads...


10 Nov 11 - 02:55 PM (#3254483)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: beardedbruce

Good post, Guest TIA. I agree with all of it.


10 Nov 11 - 02:58 PM (#3254485)
Subject: RE: BS: Wall Street Protesters...
From: Max

Gotta do it guys, its getting stupid. Thread closed. Keep your heads next time will you?

Greg and Bruce, if I find that the two of you are chasing each other around the threads bashing heads, I will have to get involved. Take it to email or meet in an alley somewhere, NOT MY SITE.