BS: There are 2000 year old living people!

02 Oct 11 - 10:48 PM (#3232860)
Subject: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: frogprince

To the best of my knowledge, every Christian church that makes any claim to theological conservatism holds to the belief that Jesus of Nazareth will return. It would appear to be impossible to believe in the inerrancy of the Bible without holding to that belief in the second coming. I couldn't begin to count the sermons and lessons that I've heard which have touched on or totally focused on this belief. But I have just discovered a significant aspect of the Biblical message which I have never heard anyone mention before: the existence among us of living people over two thousand years old.

"The Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels....I tell you the truth, some of you who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." Matthew chapter 16, New International Version.

The implication is clear; a number of those who were there to hear Jesus speak in his time have never died. It may be hard to believe, but it is unquestionably true. Life spans of hundreds of years occured in the Old Testament period, but all fell short of one thousand years.

There have been numerous science fiction treatments of the theme of extreme extended life. As it happens, some of these have reflected the actual experience and problems that the living disciples must face over the passing centuries. Like some of the fictional characters, the disciples have obviously chosen to remain incognito and keep their unique situation a secret. In order to do so, they must have maintained something much like a fugitive existence. If these people have ever shown any of the normal signs of aging, it has to have been at a rate so slow as to become conspicuous to everyone around them within the span of a few years. Time after time it would become necessary to disappear, relocate, and assume a complete new identity.

While the number of these disciples is never given, this has to involve at least several people over the entire intervening period of two thousand years. That none of them has ever been discovered would seem to suggest that their efforts at concealment have been aided by an element of miraculous divine intervention. I can scarcely believe that no one else has ever deduced their presence, but I have never once heard it mentioned before.

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03 Oct 11 - 12:14 AM (#3232875)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: GUEST,leeneia

I'm pretty aure the crabby teacher I had in the sixth grade was that old.

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03 Oct 11 - 02:57 AM (#3232890)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: Richard Bridge

PMSL!

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03 Oct 11 - 03:26 AM (#3232897)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: Musket

Oh good. If they are that old, then as per other old people, we don't have to take their views on board or indeed take anything they say seriously.

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03 Oct 11 - 03:29 AM (#3232898)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: Darowyn

Tennyson's line "After Many a Summer" is also the title of a book by Aldous Huxley which tells a story of someone who is able to extend his lifespan by centuries. Based on the idea that neotony is an aspect of evolution, meaning that the young of many species are livelier and cleverer than fully grown adults, he theorises that Homo Sapiens are a sort of larval ape, which is what the protagonist becomes. After many a summer he reaches maturity as a small, wrinkly white haired gorilla-ish thing.
Cheers
Dave

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03 Oct 11 - 04:33 AM (#3232917)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: Will Fly

After many a summer he reaches maturity as a small, wrinkly white haired gorilla-ish thing.

Hey - who's been peeking at me?

(For the potential hellishness of eternal life, check out the "Makropolous Case" (opera) by Janacek.)

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03 Oct 11 - 05:03 AM (#3232926)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: GUEST,999

"I can scarcely believe that no one else has ever deduced their presence, but I have never once heard it mentioned before."

Carl Reiner and Mel Brooks?

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03 Oct 11 - 05:29 AM (#3232935)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: Will Fly

Ah well, Michael, I fell in love with Janacek's music the first time I heard his Glagolitic Mass.

Actually, from a folk music perspective, Janacek's very interesting. I'm sure you know that he used to wander the countryside, listening to the folk music of Moravia and other Slavic music - which provided the basis of his own composition. He also noted down the sounds of animals, birds and insects, which inspired some of the composition of "The Cunning Little Vixen".

I suppose I'm biased as I'm a huge fan of composers like Bartok and Janacek, whose string quartets, IMHO, are some of the most moving pieces in modern music.

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03 Oct 11 - 06:22 AM (#3232953)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: MGM·Lion

Actually, great apologies Will, I was confusing Janacek, whose Cunning Little Vixen I remember once much enjoying in a production at the Cambridge Arts Theatre, with Berg. Can't imagine how I became so confused ~~ tho the first bit of my Credo might provide a clue!

Silly Old Fart, Michael!

~M~

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03 Oct 11 - 07:29 AM (#3232974)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: theleveller

"Silly Old Fart, Michael!"

The memory starts to go after the first millennium ;)

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03 Oct 11 - 07:31 AM (#3232976)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: GUEST,Shimrod

Could it be that among the elderly ladies who regularly block the aisles in my local supermarket with their shopping trolleys are some of these 2000 year olds? You'd think that they'd have learned some manners and common sense over that sort of time span.

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03 Oct 11 - 08:19 AM (#3232995)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: frogprince

"I can scarcely believe that no one else has ever deduced their presence, but I have never once heard it mentioned before." Me

Carl Reiner and Mel Brooks? 999

Ya, but 999, he was only one thou old, so no connection with the scriptural thing, and he wasn't keeping his age or existence a secret.

I lived in the world of the inerrant Bible for a number of years. Some things like this we rationalized with some remarkable mental gymnastics; other things we just screened out mentally, so the problems didn't exist for us.

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03 Oct 11 - 08:23 AM (#3232998)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: frogprince

Also, I was just thinking; if you look at some of the mudcat members...could they possibly look that old after just one average lifespan?

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03 Oct 11 - 08:26 AM (#3232999)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: Rapparee

Well, let's see. The Naz brought Lazarus and others back from the dead. Since every person has only one death assigned, and there's no record that they died twice, they're obviously still around. Since aging stops at death they'd look much like they did when they were brought back to life.

I don't think I want to meet Laz. "Lord, he has been dead three days and he stinketh."

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03 Oct 11 - 09:50 AM (#3233029)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: GUEST,999

O, ye of little faith: It's on Youtube, Frogprince.

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03 Oct 11 - 11:47 AM (#3233075)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: frogprince

My bad, 999; I never had the record, and it's been about 500 years since I heard any of the routine. On my way to give it a listen.
                               Dean

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03 Oct 11 - 11:53 AM (#3233076)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: Lighter

One standard explanation is that "see" doesn't mean to "experience" but rather to "perceive" in their hearts. They'd be fully convinced by grace of the truth of Christ's message, perhaps by the Transfiguration.

Another possibility is that Jesus is referring to the evangelical age that would begin with His resurrection.

A third is that the passages are really about the coming destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans.

You be the judge.

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03 Oct 11 - 11:56 AM (#3233078)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: Bonzo3legs

If you believe everything you read in a "translation" you are stark raving bonkers.

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03 Oct 11 - 12:17 PM (#3233091)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: Lighter

Except Bible translations, unlike others, are supposed to be guided by grace. In other words, though phrasing may differ somewhat, any serious translation by a faithful scholar reflects what's in the original.

Furthermore, serious readers of the bible are also guided toward correct understanding through divine grace.

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03 Oct 11 - 12:26 PM (#3233094)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: theleveller

Lighter, I can't work out whether you're serious or taking the piss.

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03 Oct 11 - 12:41 PM (#3233098)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: Little Hawk

Okay....this thread started with the following statement:

"To the best of my knowledge, every Christian church that makes any claim to theological conservatism holds to the belief that Jesus of Nazareth will return. It would appear to be impossible to believe in the inerrancy of the Bible without holding to that belief in the second coming."


Fine. ;-) Okay, what's the big deal about Jesus returning? Does is say how? Does it say when? The reason I ask is that there are a really large number of spiritual traditions and groups out there that think we ALL return many, many times through the common process of reincarnation.

We are spirits, born again in another physical life.

No one notices, because the new baby is seen as a brand new and original person by its parents and everyone else around it, so the "return" is not recognized as a return.

So Jesus could already have returned many, many times and no one would even have noticed. For all you know, I could be Jesus! ;-D

And If I was, I probably wouldn't even be aware of it!

And for that matter, you could be Jesus. If so...get on the job, willya! There's a lot of stuff going on here that needs to be set right, moneylenders in the temple again, unforgiveness, war, that sort of thing. These things need fixing!

Don't let us down.

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03 Oct 11 - 12:45 PM (#3233102)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: Mrrzy

Furthermore, serious readers of the bible are also guided toward correct understanding through divine grace. he he he...

My mom, who is 82, looks 2082, so I could believe it...

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03 Oct 11 - 12:54 PM (#3233109)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: Little Hawk

We are all guided by divine grace, in my opinion. However..........we've got our BIG personality standing out front doing all the talking, and our BIG personality mainly listens to its own voice, not to divine grace or to anyone else at all. This can go on for a very long time indeed. The voice of the human personality is LOUD...and the quiet and gentle voice of divine grace can only be heard..........when one becomes truly silent...and listens.   

Most people never do, except when they are in deep sleep. And they don't remember that. But they are renewed when in deep sleep.

For example, I bet you're already mentally chattering the very next thing YOU are about to say in rebuttal or amendment to what I just said. ;-) I bet it's sounding loud and clear in your own mind right now...that's the BIG voice of your personality.

The God of most people is their own ego...and its various gripes, desires, and concerns. They worship it by giving it their constant attention and loyalty, and feeding its boundless hunger as best they can.

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03 Oct 11 - 12:54 PM (#3233111)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: GUEST,999

Frogprince,

Mel Brooks also did routines as the '1000 Year Old Man', so y'ain't losing it yet. Remember, at our age memory is the second thing to go; that's fortunate because it means ya can't remember the first.

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03 Oct 11 - 01:20 PM (#3233128)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: GUEST,999

Maybe, LOL

Someday, MtheGM . . . .

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03 Oct 11 - 01:28 PM (#3233131)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: MGM·Lion

Oooohhh! Can't wait!

Saucebox!!!!!

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03 Oct 11 - 01:37 PM (#3233134)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: Lighter

As far as I know, those are standard interpretations, endorsed by leading theologians.

There may be others, of course.

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03 Oct 11 - 01:44 PM (#3233137)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Have they collected their old age security payments?

(Janacek''s "Makropolous Case " excellent. Get the DVD. )

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03 Oct 11 - 02:10 PM (#3233152)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: olddude

He came with his angels and knocked Saul off his horse and said "why do you persecute me" That is when Saul became Paul and a follower of Christ,the passage is referring to that event and several others where Christ appeared to individuals.

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03 Oct 11 - 02:55 PM (#3233172)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: frogprince

"If you believe everything you read in a "translation" you are stark raving bonkers." Bonzo3legs

I have to firmly disagree, Bonzo. At the risk of being somewhat serious here:

If your actual point is that anyone has to be "stark raving bonkers" to believe the Bible...no. If, as you are growing up, everyone who is close to you and supportive of you tells you to believe the Bible, you may be in error to do so, but you don't have to be "stark raving bonkers".

If you do literally mean that you have to be "bonkers" to believe a translation...no. Leaving aside the question of believing in the Bible in any form: there are numerous translations out there done by honest, diligent scholars deeply trained in the original languages. I say that as having known such people quite well. While there will always be questions as to how well any translation (of anything) conveys every nuance of the original, by far more people would get a better grasp of the original from a competent translation than by trying to read the originals with a superficial acquaintance with the languages.

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03 Oct 11 - 03:13 PM (#3233184)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: Little Hawk

It would kind of depend what you believe about the Bible, wouldn't it? After all, different people read it and draw some radically different conclusions from it, whether or not they claim to "believe" what they are reading.

It depends on how they interpret what they are reading. Some will interpret a given passage literally, while others see it as metaphor. You'll usually find that they interpret what they read in such a way that it bolsters up what they had already decided they wanted to do or believe anyway. Thus the Bible, like any other holy book, can be used by either the scrupulous or the unscrupulous to support their favorite beliefs and their general plan of action.

And so it has been. Either the forgiving or the vengeful can find some Bible passage that appears, in isolation, to be favorable to their own viewpoint.

Whether someone is "stark raving bonkers" or not is just an opinion. We're all crazy by someone else's definition, and they might be so by ours.

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03 Oct 11 - 03:25 PM (#3233194)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: Lighter

I omitted the rather obvious possibility that the words refer to the writing of the book of Revelation, which tells of the End Time and Christ's return to Earth.

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03 Oct 11 - 03:31 PM (#3233199)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: frogprince

"Whether someone is "stark raving bonkers" or not is just an opinion."
Well, maybe it depends on what your definition of "bonkers" is; : ) when I met a woman who apologized to a friend and me because she had been dead for three days and she realized that the smell of her decaying brain was offensive, I was inclined to think of her as "bonkers".

More pertainent to a discussion of the Bible: when an acquaintance, the principal of a local public school, mentioned having deducted that the "wheel in the middle of the air" that Ezekial saw was actually God riding around on a nuclear powered "throne", because a cyclotron is a big round "wheel", my "bonkers" light flickered at least a little.

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03 Oct 11 - 03:43 PM (#3233210)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: frogprince

Lighter, the passage is generally understood to refer to Christ's visible return to earth, and that really does seem to be the plain sense; that is why the statement that some of that audience, 2000 years ago, wouldn't die until that happens, raises the questions that it does.

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03 Oct 11 - 03:48 PM (#3233217)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: Little Hawk

frogprince - LOL!!! Well, that was a rare and unsual case, wasn't it? Yeah, most people would have defined her as being...umm..."bonkers"? Something like that.

The passage from Ezekiel is interesting, and many people have interpreted it as possibly referring to an ancient visitation of an alien extra-terrestrial vehicle of some kind, its occupants being seen by the people of the time as "gods" or "angels". It may be that such visitations occurred. If they had, the visitors would almost certainly have been seen as divine emmissaries from Heaven, and this would have had a very big effect on the minds of the people back then. They would have described it in the terms that made sense to them at the time.

We who live in a science-dominated age where flying machines and space travel are well-known phenomena would describe such an event in quite different terms.

I've seen what I strongly suspect were extra-terrestrial vehicles. I didn't think of them as Angels or as God riding around on a nuclear-powered throne, I thought of them as (most likely) extra-terrestrial beings a bit like ourselves, riding around in a high-tech vehicle of unknown (to us) design and origin.

If I'd been living 2,000 years ago, I'd probably have figured it was God's Angels.

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03 Oct 11 - 03:49 PM (#3233220)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: Lighter

Go here:

http://nprfreshair.tumblr.com/

and click on "Terry's Interview with C. Peter Wagner."

Not directly related to the topic, but of some interest.

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03 Oct 11 - 03:49 PM (#3233221)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: frogprince

"raises the questions that it does" for those who insist that the Bible is inerrant and to be taken literally.

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03 Oct 11 - 04:16 PM (#3233250)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: frogprince

Just got back from Lighter's link, which sets off both my "bonkers" light and my "dangerous" light.

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03 Oct 11 - 04:51 PM (#3233269)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: MGM·Lion

Just an itsy-bitsy bitty confused, that Mr Wagner, eh?

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03 Oct 11 - 04:58 PM (#3233272)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: Little Hawk

Chongo has no problems with this stuff at all. He is waiting for the 2nd coming of King Kong instead. (movie sequels don't count)

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03 Oct 11 - 07:29 PM (#3233365)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: Big Al Whittle

Not about Derek Brimstone then......

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03 Oct 11 - 07:44 PM (#3233375)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

I would rather see the second coming of Fay Wray.

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03 Oct 11 - 08:04 PM (#3233386)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: frogprince

By the way, what is PMSL! ?

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03 Oct 11 - 08:55 PM (#3233403)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: frogprince

Never mind,I looked it up; now I feel bad,'cause Richard didn't take me seriously!

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03 Oct 11 - 10:18 PM (#3233419)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: Rapparee

Of course there at 2000 year old living people. Shucks, I even know people older than one year.

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03 Oct 11 - 10:52 PM (#3233426)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: Kent Davis

Frogprince,

Some people do assume that, when Jesus spoke of the "kingdom", he was referring to his return on the Judgment Day. I used to assume that myself. I was wrong. Eventually someone showed me that, contrary to my assumptions about the "kingdom", the Christians of the first century believed that the "kingdom" had already come in their day. For example, consider Colossians 1:13,14, "He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins." The first century Christians were described as having ALREADY been transferred to the "kingdom".

Similarly, Revelation 1:5 says that Jesus has "made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father" and, in verse 9 of that chapter, the writer describes himself as "John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom". Since the Christians of the first century described the "kingdom" was something that was already present then, and said that they were already in the "kingdom", I had to admit that my assumption about the meaning of "kingdom" was wrong.

Politically speaking, those who are under the authority of a king are his kingdom. Those who are in rebel-held territory are not in his kingdom (though perhaps they should be). It is no different in the New Testament. Those who are under the authority of the King are in His Kingdom. This world, as you have no doubt noticed, is rebel-held territory. Here and there in this "break-away republic" we call Earth, there were (and are) loyalists who are citizens of the Kingdom.

In the New Testament, contrary to what I assumed, Christ's return in judgment is not the beginning of his kingdom. It is just the opposite. It is the END of his kingdom. I Corinthians 15:24-26 says, "Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death."

With this as background, it is easy to understand Matthew 16:28, "Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

What Jesus said that day was not hyperbole or mysticism at all. It was actually an understatement. Of those to whom Jesus was speaking, most (apparently all but Judas) lived to "see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom" and then lived their lives as citizens loyal to the King who was "not of this world" (John 18:36).

Kent

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03 Oct 11 - 11:19 PM (#3233432)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: Little Hawk

Jesus also said "Seek ye the Kingdom of Heaven which is within." This is the same thing which is said in pretty much of all the Eastern and other esoteric traditions, and it refers basically to a state of consciousness, not a place or an outer phenomenon. I think that fundamentalists are mistaken in assuming it to be an outward event when it is in fact an inner change in consciousness that is being referred to.

The esoteric traditions (in a great many religions) also refer to God as being within each person, and God-consciousness as something every person can therefore attain to. God-consciousnes would be a state where one completely lets go of fear and completely embraces love (every form of love). If a person did that, they would be in a heavenly state of consciousness and would, in effect, be experiencing the Kingdom of Heaven.

Imagine what it would be like to have no fear and to feel absolute love. Imagine the energy it would give a person and how much creativity it would bring forth. To me, that would be Heaven.

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04 Oct 11 - 02:20 AM (#3233454)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: Paul Burke

Kent, I used to think that the Bible said "Thou shalt not kill", and that this meant that I shouldn't kill people. But on studying the beliefs of early Christians, I realised that it actually meant that I shouldn't kill people who agree with me, nice people. It's perfectly OK to have your opponents like Priscillian killed when you can't beat their arguments. And that Hypatia (the slut) was just asking to be skinned alive. And then there are the Jews who just won't understand that Jesus saved them, slaves who insist that God made them just as good as us, disgusting fags and libertines.... the list is endless.

So I now realise I have authority, nay duty, to kill anyone who transgresses against the infallible rectitude of the Bible, as long as I can get together a big enough gang to make it safe to do so.

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04 Oct 11 - 02:34 AM (#3233459)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: VirginiaTam

Bible written by men who want to live forever.

I am 2000 years old... always been a little old soul in an ill fitting suit. I suspect most people are.

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04 Oct 11 - 02:45 AM (#3233463)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Lighter: "....Another possibility is that Jesus is referring to the evangelical age that would begin with His resurrection.

A third is that the passages are really about the coming destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans.

You be the judge."

I guess it's how you see 'death' and dimensions. The answer is clear as a bell..in Matthew, first chapter..followed by Galatians 3:16 ...and Psalms 22:30....and if you can't hear the bell...maybe you just ain't in the band!

GfS

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04 Oct 11 - 02:51 AM (#3233467)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Correction(by omission): "I guess it's how you see 'death', TIME, and dimensions. The answer is clear as a bell..in Matthew, first chapter..followed by Galatians 3:16 ...and Psalms 22:30....and if you can't hear the bell...maybe you just ain't in the band!

OK......now go check it out! If your slick, you'll see it.....unless you're Bobert. He'll try to get Jesus to be a Democrat!

GfS

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04 Oct 11 - 02:53 AM (#3233468)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: MGM·Lion

I mean, like, look, you are all being serious, aren't you? This isn't some sort of elaborate wind-up?

Oh, well, as my late dearest Valerie used to say:

"Play your games."

~M~

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04 Oct 11 - 03:17 AM (#3233484)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

MtheGM: "I mean, like, look, you are all being serious, aren't you? This isn't some sort of elaborate wind-up?"

I don't know about 'them' but as for me, I'm dead serious, as I believe Lighter, and Little Hawk are sincere!

But the scripture references, are very accurate....but, it may cause some to think deeper...but it's all there!

GfS

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04 Oct 11 - 04:27 AM (#3233510)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: theleveller

"I mean, like, look, you are all being serious, aren't you? This isn't some sort of elaborate wind-up?"

Exactly my thought! Surely people don't actually believe the stuff they read in the Bible? Never mind there being 2000 year old people living - I'd say that there's one born every minute!

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04 Oct 11 - 12:04 PM (#3233713)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: frogprince

"The answer is clear as a bell..in Matthew, first chapter..followed by Galatians 3:16 ...and Psalms 22:30....and if you can't hear the bell...maybe you just ain't in the band!"

Just read each of those passages; I will freely admit that I don't hear any "bell" ringing out any answer to the little question that led me to tuck my tongue in my cheek and start this thread. I would venture that very few believers in a literal, inerrant Bible would claim to find that particular answer in those passages. I suspect that your "band" may consist of a group who have agreed to accept some esoteric interpretation of those passages, and hold themselves up as particularly wise/and/or spiritual because they "understand" what all those lesser (or merely professing) Christians don't have eyes to see.

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04 Oct 11 - 01:56 PM (#3233782)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Hey Froggie, I didn't even think for a moment, that you'd see it. It was meant for perceptive, and intelligent people, whose agenda was to look deeper than...oh, never mind...you wouldn't 'get it' anyway!

GfS

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04 Oct 11 - 02:03 PM (#3233790)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: frogprince

Me sorry; me shoun't have even twied.

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04 Oct 11 - 03:11 PM (#3233829)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Das wight!..You wouldn't have understood it anyway, so don't sprain your brain...either one of them!

gfS

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04 Oct 11 - 04:12 PM (#3233858)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: Lighter

GfS, I have pored over the passages to no avail. They seem absolutely disconnected.

Like Frogprince, I'm not in the band.

Why should we be excluded?

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04 Oct 11 - 04:14 PM (#3233860)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: Paul Burke

You haven't seed the light! If you can't fight, wear a begat.

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04 Oct 11 - 04:16 PM (#3233861)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

OK, Lighter...because I think you are sincere.....Matthew I, what do you see?....Now count them.....everything come out right?

GfS

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04 Oct 11 - 11:05 PM (#3234072)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Lighter, making any progress?

GfS

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05 Oct 11 - 07:19 AM (#3234199)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: Lighter

Matthew believes there were forty-two generations from Abraham to Jesus.

There are twenty-five verses in Matthew 1.

That's all I see to count, GfS.

What's it mean?

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05 Oct 11 - 09:10 AM (#3234249)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: EBarnacle

1: Go back to the original Aramaic for your count.
2: Eat plenty of garlic. It works to stop the Death Angel.

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05 Oct 11 - 01:24 PM (#3234360)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

I prefer the stories in the original Uncle Remus.

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05 Oct 11 - 01:51 PM (#3234383)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: Lighter

I dunno. I think "forty-two" and "twenty-five" should be pretty close in both English and Aramaic.

That garlic thing, though. I'll try it! Thanks!

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05 Oct 11 - 01:57 PM (#3234390)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Count the last 'group of 14'(there are three groups of 14)...then get back. If something occurs to you, then it may be a mind-blower!

GfS

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05 Oct 11 - 03:24 PM (#3234432)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: Paul Burke

I don't know why you've let yourselves be dragged into this morass by a serial plonker. He's talking about the old chestnut that Matthew couldn't count: from Babylon to Jesus is 13, not 14, generations. It only matters a spit if you think the Bible is inerrant. Most people, and all people who are intellectually open, don't.

Since that Biblical statement isn't true, it's not surprising that Jesus was wrong (or wrongly reported) when he claimed that the Kingdom of Whatever would be in the lifetime of some of those listening. After all, he was a man, and men are fallible.

But it is relevant to the other discussion about BC/AD: the computation of Dionysius Exiguus can be taken as symbolic of the fact that Christians had finally given up on the Second Coming. Prior to then, there was no need for a calendar, as soon there would be nothing to date.

But to return: if Jesus was telling the truth, where are the bimillenarians?

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05 Oct 11 - 04:12 PM (#3234465)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: Rusty Dobro

Well, there's Sir Cliff Richard for a start......

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05 Oct 11 - 04:29 PM (#3234474)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: frogprince

Paul Burke, you may be right, but if so what does dragging in the other two scripture references have to do with it? I'd just like to see this play out a little; I have a little morbid streak, so sometimes I like to watch trainwrecks. : )

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05 Oct 11 - 04:37 PM (#3234482)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: frogprince

"if Jesus was telling the truth, where are the bimillenarians?"
Like I was saying in the first place; they must sorta be in God's own witness protection program. : )

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05 Oct 11 - 05:35 PM (#3234526)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: Lighter

I've verified to my own satisfaction that a generation is "missing." I didn't notice it at first because I accepted the words of Matthew without double-checking. That was pretty careless, I admit.

And an idea does strike me: that such a blatant error - trivial or otherwise - appears on the first page of the New Testament, and tens of millions of people still insist that the Bible is literally and infallibly true. That includes well-publicized and well-funded Creationists.

It blows my mind.

But surely that's not the mind-blower GfS was thinking of.

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05 Oct 11 - 09:01 PM (#3234614)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Lighter, The generation ISN'T missing....now refer to the two other scriptures I gave you...and get back...this will be the 'capper'

GfS

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05 Oct 11 - 09:08 PM (#3234616)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: GUEST,Guest from sanity

BTW, Lighter, use KJV....it's consistent. If you mix them, the terminology might cause you to miss a rather pivotal point.

GfS

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05 Oct 11 - 10:35 PM (#3234643)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: Kent Davis

O.K., Here's the Reader's Digest version of my post of October 3:

The premise of the original post is not correct. In the New Testament, the "coming of the kingdom" is not a reference to Judgment Day.

See Colossians 1:13,14; I Corinthians 15:24-26, and Revelation 1:5.9.

Kent

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05 Oct 11 - 11:08 PM (#3234658)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: Little Hawk

The "coming of the Kingdom" is a reference to Chongo Chimp's election as the first ape President of the USA. He will usher in a New Age of freedom and equality for all primates. It will happen either in 2012 or 2016. Don't be caught napping when it does!

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05 Oct 11 - 11:28 PM (#3234665)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Kent, Without even going to your scriptures, (yet), I already know, that the premise of the thread is misleading, and you are correct! Also, the New testament never says we are going to 'The Kingdom', or that we are even going to a place called 'Heaven'...but it does certainly allude to the 'Kingdom' coming to us!
Follow me?
Hey, are you digging into what I've given 'Lighter'. Scroll back a few, and go for it!

GfS

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06 Oct 11 - 08:13 AM (#3234771)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: Lighter

OK. I've scrutinized the three passages in KJV. It appears to be no more or less "consistent" than any other translation.(My first choice was the New English Bible: Oxford Study Edition, because it has lots of footnotes.).

The only connection between the passages is that they predict a Messiah will be born. Nothing about frogprince's verse.

Still no bells. It's hopeless. I'm happy that you're happy, though.

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06 Oct 11 - 10:22 AM (#3234816)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: John P

I can't tell what's worse -- GfS trying to say something or GfS trying not to say something.

In any event, GfS, it's interesting to see someone as mean-spirited, cruel, foul-mouthed, and bigoted as yourself putting yourself forward as a Christian. You've obviously read the Bible a lot; please go back and read all the stuff about love and acceptance again. If I were a Christian I'd be really pissed at you for doing so much to ruin the reputation of my religion.

As my sainted mother said of George W. Bush: "That man is no Christian!"

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06 Oct 11 - 12:46 PM (#3234875)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: frogprince

So, we can say that Jesus is counted as a generation, so Matthew comes out right. Is that the mind-blowing revelation?

Believe it or not, I'm fully aware of the concept that the kingdom is with us, and within us. But let me drop back a step. Read Matthew 16: 27 and 28, Mark 8:38 amd 9:1,(The chapter division was done centuries later) and Luke 9:26 and 27. Do you think that Jesus was just messing around with his listeners, switching between references to totally different stages of the "plan" without giving them any indication that he was doing so?
Context, gentlemen, context .

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06 Oct 11 - 02:35 PM (#3234941)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: gnu

They must be very happy that Depends are on sale this week. Of course, they should be reminded that the Senior's Discount does not apply to items on sale BUT they can still use any coupons they have.

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06 Oct 11 - 03:19 PM (#3234967)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: Lighter

The Apostles were mere human beings, so they could get it wrong.

On the other hand, they were guided by grace, so they couldn't get it wrong.

But sometimes they seem to get it wrong.

That must mean they only appear to get it wrong, but it's really right.

But if it's right, why doesn't it make obvious sense?

Maybe because it's an incomprehensible mystery we're not supposed to understand.

Even though it's presented in seemingly very plain language.

But maybe they just got it wrong.

And if they could get *that* wrong....

But that's too awful to think about.

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06 Oct 11 - 04:36 PM (#3235006)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: Little Hawk

No, it isn't, Lighter. ;-) It's quite easy to think about.

Look, there are a vast number of people in the world who have a high opinion of Jesus and his teachings...some of them Christians...some of them belonging to many other religious traditions...and some of them belonging to no specific religion at all.....who do NOT take the Bible as an inerrant source, and who are well aware that the various books of the Bible came from a great many different writers who were also not an inerrant source. Duh!!! Is this hard to figure out, knowing the general state of humanity in any era, past or present?

Your argument, however, appears to be directed at people who DO think the Bible is an inerrant source. Well, where are they? Are there any here? I don't think many of them are on this forum. If there are, then they're probably avoiding responding to you. Perhaps you should go where these people ARE and battle it out with them...or are you just having some fun here kicking around a favorite customary punching bag of yours because it feels so good to do it?

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06 Oct 11 - 05:39 PM (#3235034)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: John P

Of course, we have Little Hawk once again putting forth unsupported reasons for other peoples' actions. Had you considered the possibility that it's just kind of fun to poke around with these ideas? Or that laughing at people who make themselves into laughing stocks is a perfectly normal activity? Why do you, with no evidence, consistently assign negative reasons to the conversations people have around here? You're really telling us more about how your mind defaults to a position of conflict than about what's really going on.

And, yes, there are people on Mudcat who take the Bible literally. GfS, apparently, in this very thread. Counting generations and drawing conclusions from it is certainly a very literal-minded activity.

There are other reasons to call attention to the literal Bible folks that don't include mean-spiritedness. One is that most members of one of the political parties in the US, and many of their candidates, ascribe to that view. One of the few weapons we have to keep them from further depredations against our Constitution is ridicule.

You say, "Perhaps you should go where these people ARE and battle it out with them.." I would say that if you don't like the conversation, or can't find anything to add that isn't based on your inaccurate suppositions about other people, perhaps YOU should go where others of your ilk are and tell them how negative everyone else is.

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06 Oct 11 - 06:09 PM (#3235045)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: Lighter

The OP, LH, was about a question of Biblical literalism, and that what's I've been talking about it.

GfS and I share an interest in the subject and a tendency to express ourselves bluntly and satirically. As far as I know, however, we're still on friendly terms. I never attack anyone personally, just some of their beliefs.

And as John P says, religious literalism/fundamentalism mixed with politics and a disdain for science and reason can be a dangerous mix.

Only one of the Republican candidates, John Huntsman, has even suggested that he might believe in evolution. ("The Republican party can't run away from science.") He's polling at around 1%. Coincidence?

Meanwhile, I've heard Obama called "the Antichrist." (Of course, GWB was called that too, but only by people who don't believe in the Antichrist: the anti-Obama people sound serious.)

That's not my idea of a healthy political or intellectual environment. Or spiritual, come to think of it.

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06 Oct 11 - 06:51 PM (#3235063)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: Kent Davis

Frogprince,

You asked if Jesus was "just messing around with his listeners, switching between references to totally different stages of the 'plan' without giving them any indication that he was doing so"? That is a good and fair question.

You are right that context is important. In the context of Matthew 16, there is a lot going on.

Starting in verse 13, Jesus asks the disciples what people were saying about him. Then he asks them what THEY think. Peter identifies Jesus as the "Christ", the Anointed One(verse 16).

Jesus agrees that he is the Christ, but immediately begins correcting their faulty understanding of what this implied:

"From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised." - Mt. 16:21

Peter didn't like this and began to rebuke Jesus, only to be rebuked himself.

What a let-down! To be told that the Anointed One, the long-promised Messiah, was standing in their midst, and then to be told that he was going to be killed!

That is the context.

So, to answer your question: No, I don't think that Jesus was just messing around with his listeners, switching between references to totally different stages of the "plan" without giving them any indication that he was doing so. I think he was explaining the situation to them one bit at a time, as much as they could understand, "stretching" them to a fuller understanding of something that was more profound than they had imagined.

Kent

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06 Oct 11 - 09:59 PM (#3235126)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Lighter, Kent, and Little Hawk,
We are looking for the 'missing generation', right?...well the two other scriptures I gave, in reference to this,(building off my first post,about 'From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Oct 11 - 02:51 AM

Correction(by omission): "I guess it's how you see 'death', TIME, and dimensions. The answer is clear as a bell..in Matthew, first chapter..followed by Galatians 3:16 ...and Psalms 22:30....and if you can't hear the bell...maybe you just ain't in the band!"

Galatians 3:16--"Now to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."

AND

Psalms 22:30--"A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation."

Now in Matthew is says (Matthew 1:17)17: "So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations; and from David until the carrying away into Babylon are fourteen generations; and from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are fourteen generations."

The reason you came up with 13, instead of 14 is that you counted 'Jesus' and 'Christ' as ONE generation....but the other scriptures tell you his 'seed' (Christ), was counted as A generation .

Now, dimensionally speaking, LISTEN to what the technology discovered, which created a whole new area in science, as a result of these findings, about this whole thing. Keep in mind, this is NOT a religious funded, or sponsored study......but actually started off as something else...completely secular!!!

Watch the who thing..it is fascinating.....and very much a WAKE UP call!!!

It's NOT what you may think...IT'S BETTER!


This is 'Part 1'...each one ends with the next 'part'.

You'll find WHERE the generation is......and depending what you 'let in'.....well, you go from there!

Take the time, watch the whole thing!

Highest Regards,

GfS

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06 Oct 11 - 10:39 PM (#3235137)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: frogprince

Do, wacka do, wacka do, wacka do...

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06 Oct 11 - 10:44 PM (#3235139)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Froggie, You've been doin' that most of your life, with or without someone else's help. Your post doesn't surprise me.

"Out of the abundance of the heart, does the mouth speak".

Think about it.....if you can.

GfS

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06 Oct 11 - 10:47 PM (#3235141)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: frogprince

Once again we have proof that you can "decode" anything out of anything, if you are inclined to do that instead of simply reading what the author is saying.

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06 Oct 11 - 11:02 PM (#3235144)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: frogprince

Gfs, I will have to agree with you on this: When we are talking about the discovery that to understand the Bible we have to know that Jesus and Christ are meant to be recognized as two separate generations....
          we are talking about a blown mind.

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06 Oct 11 - 11:52 PM (#3235161)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Watch the documentary....
GfS

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06 Oct 11 - 11:53 PM (#3235162)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

but one entity!

GfS

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07 Oct 11 - 12:34 AM (#3235177)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: EBarnacle

14 generations from Abraham. Hmm, must have been long generations. Remember the Egyption visit? All of 400 years, right there.

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07 Oct 11 - 12:55 AM (#3235181)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Well, 400 divided by 14 equals 28.57 and a bunch of numbers....it works, for a generation, which a lot of people put as 30 years. Is there a point there?

GfS

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07 Oct 11 - 08:08 AM (#3235276)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: Musket

I have read a few bits over the years, purely out of fascination, about lifespan of cells, cell mutation, genetic distortion, free radicals etc etc.

So... as the evidence would suggest a single sentient human cannot go beyond 130 years tops, even with today's technology propping them up, why are some people taking this thread seriously?

I can enjoy a debate based on theology, I can enjoy a debate scrutinising the real world. I am somewhat bemused when some people try to blend the two. Isn't there a word for that? Superstition.

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07 Oct 11 - 09:20 AM (#3235291)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: John P

Ooh, do we get to include the Numerology in the Bible??

I mean, just, think about, it's amazing!!! 14 generations!!! Add the 1 and 4 together and you get 5!!!! Get it?? Try real hard now, think about it!!!! Got it yet???

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07 Oct 11 - 09:25 AM (#3235295)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

It is truly amazing how 'uninformed' know-it-alls, can make complete asses out of themselves....and do so, so proudly!

Just awaiting the results of those who actually checked out the material, who have a point of view.......

GfS

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07 Oct 11 - 10:38 AM (#3235333)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: Kent Davis

Frogprince,

I've mentioned a couple of times that the phrase "coming of the kingdom" doesn't refer to what we often call "Judgment Day". I was trying to be brief and to the point but, as I re-read my posts, I fear I may have brief to the point of obscurity. If so, I apologize.

I mentioned that the phrase "coming of the kingdom" does not refer to the Day of Judgment. The event which occurs right after Judgment is, in the New Testament, called "inheriting" the kingdom. The New Testament refers to inheriting the kingdom in several passages (Matthew 25:34-36; I Corinthians 6:9,10 and 15:50; Galatians 5:19-21).

Once I thought that "inheriting the kingdom" and "entering the kingdom" and the "coming of the kingdom" were all the same thing, but I was wrong.   

The United Kingdom CAME into being in, I believe, 1707. If I am someday blessed to visit that kingdom, I will ENTER it but, given my genealogy, I will never INHERIT that kingdom.

Matthew 16:28 refers to the "coming of the kingdom" which was then still in the future. Colossians 1:13, written after Jesus had begun to reign as king over heaven and over his church, refers to Christians as having already been "transferred" to the then-existing kingdom. "Inheriting" the kindgom is yet future.

Matthew 16:28 used to bother me. It bothered me, not because Jesus made a mistake, but because Kent mis-read what Jesus said.

Kent

Matthew 25:34-36
Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, INHERIT THE KINGDOM prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.'

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07 Oct 11 - 11:54 AM (#3235370)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: Paul Burke

Jesus had begun to reign as king over heaven

I bet God wishes he'd never let the Greeks loose on his religion. God is eternal (so they say), and has existed from before time; indeed he exists outside time. Jesus is God (so they say), and while God appears to have something of a multiple personality disorder, so do quite a few people, and we are more liberal with disabilities these days. But for God to have started doing something in Heaven on such-and-such a date (we don't know what it is, but Kent seems to think i's determinable within a few years) is a good one. Jesus, the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow (but not before November 13th 36AD)?

Oh bother, let's not get started on whence the Holy Spirit proceeds. And ignore thse legalistic materialists who want to pin their god down in a dusty old book, like a pressed flower. Let's hear it for the teacher Jesus, killed as a rebel by the authorities for subversion, who preached the Sermon on the Mount that his "followers" today so studiously ignore.

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07 Oct 11 - 01:41 PM (#3235428)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: Little Hawk

"Let's hear it for the teacher Jesus, killed as a rebel by the authorities for subversion, who preached the Sermon on the Mount that his "followers" today so studiously ignore."

Yes, indeed! Hurrah for the free thinker, Jesus, who taught a gospel of love, kindness, forgiveness, mercy, and nonviolence! Jesus was not a Christian. Christians are the people who came later, some time after Jesus was gone, and after his first group of surviving followers gave up trying to reform the traditional Jewish religion from within and decided to turn Jesus into an idol and start an entirely new religion in his name. They started a whole long train of events, many of which were not at all in the spirit of what Jesus taught. It's hardly fair to blame him for it. He wasn't there any longer to set his "followers" straight.

As for the Bible, it's a pastiche of writings by many different authors from many different historical time periods, and each book reflects the ideas of the writer and the time. The Old Testament is for the most part utterly unlike the New Testament in its approach to things. The message Jesus brought was very unlike the messages brought in most of the Old Testament, and this is probably one of the main reasons why he was persecuted and eventually killed by the religious authorities of his time.

It's fairly incredible that any human being would consider the Bible to be "without error" and literally true throughout....until you consider the effect that culture and upbringing has on people. People basically WILL tend to believe and accept whatever they've been taught to believe and accept by their parents, their schools, and their community. They do so because they see it as an intrinsic part of their own identity and they're used to it. Their acceptance is pretty much automatic from that point on. And they often feel threatened by others not automatically accepting what they accept.

Given that, it's not so surprising that some people take the Bible literally and think it is without error. They've simply been around other people who thought that way, and they take it for granted.

Once you take anything for granted, you entire logical mind and your powers of reason and observation and interpretation line up like soldiers to defend it. It makes sense to you because you've already decided that it should.

This is why, for example, I have 2 exceedingly intelligent young friends who are Jehovah's Witnesses....and they are NOT stupid people...nor are they poorly educated people...in fact, they are one of the brightest and most capable (and likable) couples I've ever known. They are exemplary people. One is a dental hygeinist, the other is a successful business advisor who helps companies improve their sales capabilities and other organizational skills.

There is no aspect of these two people that is not quite impressive (aside from their religious ideas, which might not impress you or me). I kid you not! But they believe literalist stuff about religion and the Bible that I could not possibly believe, because I came from a completely different upbringing than they did. Their beliefs surprise me a bit...but don't trouble me. It doesn't harm me in any way. It is no threat to anyone. It's just their own level of belief, that's all, and I can't see that it's doing them any harm either....they are handling their lives extremely well, and they are among the nicest and must trustworthy, honest, responsible people I've ever known.

So I make no judgement on them whatsoever over their religious beliefs, I simply accept the fact that they grew up with a completely different set of assumptions around them than I did. And that's why they believe different things than I do. Period.

We can argue the pros and cons forever, but there will always be people who believe stuff we don't believe. It doesn't mean they're stupid. It doesn't mean they're bad. It means they grew up under a different set of influences and were exposed to different things.

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07 Oct 11 - 01:57 PM (#3235443)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: MGM·Lion

~~~Hurrah for the free thinker, Jesus, who taught a gospel of love, kindness, forgiveness, mercy, and nonviolence!~~~~
,.,.,.
Now, could that be that same Jesus who came to bring, not peace, but a sword?

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07 Oct 11 - 02:11 PM (#3235457)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: John P

There is no aspect of these two people that is not quite impressive . . . But they believe literalist stuff about religion and the Bible that I could not possibly believe, because I came from a completely different upbringing than they did. Their beliefs surprise me a bit...but don't trouble me.

This matches my experience of most people, including most Christians. Really nice people, running their lives in good ways. The reason I am still troubled by the literal Bible stuff is that here in the US they mostly vote for people who are trying to destroy our freedoms. Also, religious belief ends up getting treated as if it was as valid and as important to the rest of us as serious scholarship. I think that erodes the level and usefulness of a lot of public discussion.

LH, do have any idea how your friends feel about the separation of church and state? Or if their decisions about who to vote for are determined primarily by their religious beliefs?

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07 Oct 11 - 02:17 PM (#3235461)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: Kent Davis

Paul Burke,

I join you in applauding Jesus.

I hope that you, Frogprince, and others found intersting and helpful the information I provided about the phrases "coming of the kingdom" and "inherit the kingdom".

When I wrote, all that I hoped to do was to shed a little light on a couple of often-misunderstood phrases. I was not simultaneously trying to explain how the temporal relates to the Eternal.

I am sorry that my answer so disappointed you.

Kent

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07 Oct 11 - 02:24 PM (#3235463)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: Little Hawk

Good question, MthGM, and one that has already been asked by many other people. ;-) For the answer, go not to what a whole assortment of different people attributed to Jesus in their writings, but go to the general account of his own personal conduct that can be easily gleaned from studying the many different accounts of his life and comparing them for the commonalities in his actual behaviour.

He did not go about wearing a sword. He did not command an army. He did not encourage his followers to practice violence. He was never noted for attacking anyone with a sword or encouraging anyone else to. When arrested in Gethsemane, one of his apostles attacked one of the arresting soldiers with a sword, and Jesus immediately told him to stop doing that.

Therefore I suspect that the statement which ONE of the many writers attributed to Jesus, saying that he came "to bring not peace, but a sword" was probably either..

1. Made up by that writer to serve some agenda of his own...or

2. It has a symbolic significance not a literal one. The Archangel Michael, for example, in all ancient traditions is spoken of as carrying a sword...a sword which divides between truth and falsehood. Anyone who carries that symbolic sword and uses it by expressing truth and exposing falsehood will be extremely unsettling to people. He will cause them to be confronted with truths that they will probably find uncomfortable! And they will experience inner turmoil...it won't be a "peaceful" process for them while that is happening, because they'll be challenged to move out of their usual comfort zone.

You won't like my explanation, I trust. You'll argue against it. Fine. But your interpretation is just one person's interpretation, and I don't buy it. There's no material supporting it in Jesus' recorded behaviour when he was around other people. It's a little verbal straw you've grasped in the midst of an ocean of information to the contrary, and it carries no weight with me.

Remember: I've stated clearly that I do not think the Bible is without error. I think it has a good deal of error in it. Why should I be surprised that you can find the odd little straw in it to apparently back whatever argument you wish to entertain?

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07 Oct 11 - 02:36 PM (#3235469)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: Little Hawk

John P - It's a radically different situation in the USA regarding religion affecting politics. Religion has very little effect on the political agenda in Canada, and politicians here usually don't play on the religious angle much at all...if they do, the voters don't like it, and they lose votes. The present prime minister here is a Conservative, and he is reputed to be a born-again Christian, but if he is, he keeps it very close to his chest. He knows that if he were to make any kind of public point about it, the electorate would not go for it.

As regards my Jehovah's Witness friends, no, I don't think it affects the way they vote. Seems to me that they regard religion as a personal matter and politics as a public matter, so I think that the separation of church and state would seem normal to them. They would, naturally, like to see honesty and good morals in public officials....but who wouldn't?

They do think God's Kingdom will come at some point on this planet, after which the present political systems would presumably no longer be needed...but I don't see how that would affect the way they vote at present. ;-)

There is a tiny Christian fundamentalist political party in Canada: The Christian Heritage Party. And I do mean tiny! I'd guess that they get maybe 1/10 of 1 percent of the vote, if that. They aren't connected with the JV's. They've never elected anyone, and I can't imagine they ever will.

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07 Oct 11 - 02:37 PM (#3235470)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: MGM·Lion

···"He did not encourage his followers to practice violence. He was never noted for attacking anyone with a sword or encouraging anyone else to."···

Not a sword, no indeed. But a whip of small cords to drive out the money changers?...

"You won't like my explanation, I trust. You'll argue against it." ···

No: I think it a perfectly reasonable interpretation...

~Michael~

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07 Oct 11 - 02:38 PM (#3235471)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: frogprince

Why I let myself be goaded into it I'm not sure, but I just watched the entire presentation. It's a remarkable admixture of very interesting information and mumbo-jumbo.

It seems hard to deny, to say the least, the probability that the shroud wrapped a body, and that the image got unto the shroud from the body somehow. As to it being Jesus? I have no inclination to say that that's absurd. A lot of the details fit, and even the more conjectural "evidence" given was generally plausible. But a lot of this also consisted of "proving" a thesis by mixing it with so many superfilous facts, and dobs of pseudo-scientific jargon, that it all becomes "true".

Jargon as in saying that we don't actually see in 3 dimensions, as if either eye, with only 2 dimensional capability, could actually "see" without the image being processed by the brain.

Jargon as in saying that the shroud has only the "illusion" of shading, caused by the varying density of darkened area; in a monochromatic image, all shading consists of the varying density of darkened area.

If in fact the image was transferred from a body to the shroud, no one has anything but total conjecture as to how; it really is a fascinating, intriguing question. If in fact the cloth was affected by a burst of light, or other energy, then to say that only some of the light had time to affect the cloth before the body vanished into another dimension is, to say the least, as baseless a flight of conjecture as any of us will ever hear. And it doesn't suddenly become plausible because early gnostics talked about different kinds of reality.

And isn't it amazing that this "code" was deliberately provided, all those centuries ago, so that the image could be retrieved by modern means? What "code"? surprise: given a comparable 2 dimensional image, a three dimensional image can be retrieved with modern technology. Any expert could start with an old negative and end up with a realistic 3 dimensional presentation; if the initial image was on cloth draped in an irregular manner, it would take him that much more painstaking work to do it.

Now: what does that have to do with those three scriptural references? did Jesus become "Christ", a "generation" of pure light, in another dimension, at the resurrection? Or are you going to keep your gnostic knowledge to yourself, so you can remain the only member of the spiritually superior "band" around here?

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07 Oct 11 - 03:43 PM (#3235492)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: John P

LH, depending on the outcome of our next election, I might try to immigrate to Canada. A political system where the religion of the candidate isn't important would be very refreshing!

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08 Oct 11 - 10:58 AM (#3235800)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

...does entering 'Time' give us amnesia???


...and make us hard of hearing???

GfS

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08 Oct 11 - 08:57 PM (#3235996)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: gnu

Follow? I would follow her anywhere! Thanks GfS.

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08 Oct 11 - 09:46 PM (#3236003)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

You're welcome...........BTW, which one?

GfS

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09 Oct 11 - 10:10 AM (#3236193)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Been waiting for Lighter to gt back...
GfS

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10 Oct 11 - 08:28 AM (#3236647)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: Lighter

I checked with a devout friend of mine about the generational inconsistency. He's studied the Bible for decades.

His first response was that I must have counted wrong, but his final position was that because the genealogies have no cosmic significance, it might well be an error.

He didn't think that sort of triviality cast doubt on anything else.

As for the part about not tasting death, he correctly observed that there were "various interpretations" along the lines I listed originally. The uncertainty and confusion didn't bother him, because it was a prophetic statement that could not be analyzed literally. It might have something to do with some kind if time relativity between the material and heavenly worlds. In Eternity, there is no time as we know it.

I might add that my friend is neither a fundamentalist nor a creationist.

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10 Oct 11 - 12:26 PM (#3236797)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

Lighter: "I checked with a devout friend of mine about the generational inconsistency......"

The other scriptures I gave you, shows NO inconsistency! Did you watch the linked documentary??

That puts a WHOLE LOT together, in regards to 'death and time', and please pay attention to the questions that needed answers, in the video, and the new area of science that it opened up.

As one guy says on it, "This is a coming together of science and spiritualism on a most profound way".

Well worth the time to watch.....not so much for just the 'face', but the science involved!

GfS

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10 Oct 11 - 12:42 PM (#3236806)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: Lighter

Lisa Kelly and Mairead Nesbitt. Beautiful performances.

And Sting. Not so much.

Nothing biblical in either case, as far as I could tell.

Live long and prosper!

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10 Oct 11 - 01:33 PM (#3236838)
Subject: RE: BS: There are 2000 year old living people!
From: frogprince

Does anyone except Gfs see the linked presentation as "opening up a whole new area of science?

What I didn't mention before is that what Gfs calls a secular, science-based presentation is so loaded with manipulative emotional appeal that just about anything in it is bound to become "true" for any fundamentalist with more fervor than discernment. Like a regretably large amount of the History Channel's fare, it is as much or more pandering as history or science.

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