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02 Oct 99 - 05:22 PM (#120113) Subject: Changing folk songs to suit us From: emily rain i'm of the school of thought which believes a folk song is infinitely mutable, so i freely change words, verses, melodies, even plots to suit my changing mood. i do this capriciously, and without apology. for instance, when i sing "arthur mcbride" i leave out most of the end verses with all the violence, so it comes off as not only anti-military, but anti-violence as well. and i have a chip on my shoulder about compulsive gambling (ex-boyfriend issues... don't get me started!), so when i sing "rovin' gambler", i leave out the verses about "the man i want is a gamblin' man / who wears a golden chain". then i try to make it clear that the hero is giving up the game for love of his lady. i sing the last two verses:
my father was a gamblin' man
so i gambled up in washington, to me, this means he's coming to realize that his gaming isn't getting him anywhere, a throwaway hand, whereas his ladylove is possibly the best thing that ever happened to him. he's gonna ditch the 3-jack spread and concentrate on the possible royal flush. : ) (you can see the ex-boyfriend issues now, can't you?) this doesn't mean that i always favor "new" versions of songs over the "old"... i'm actually really excited when i find older versions, but mostly because it gives me new ways of viewing the piece, and new ideas for changing it some more! how about you guys? where does everyone stand on the subject of "authenticity"? i know we all make little changes here and there in the songs in order to make them our own, but what constitutes too much change? and what's a good enough reason to change a song? emily |
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02 Oct 99 - 07:12 PM (#120145) Subject: RE: Changing folk songs to suit us From: DonMeixner Emily, This is the point where censorship belongs. Where it is the personal choice of the performer. You are also correct about the alterability of folksongs. This is called arranging. :-) <--- note the grin and the obvious humor to follow. If your prefered arrangement is a gutless Arthur Mc Bride, totally lacking balls and power, thats your right. :-) still grinning and poking fun. As far as authenticity goes. If its as authentic as any folk song can be, say so. If its your take on a tune, say so. Simple as that. Do it your way. Stick up for your principles, you'll always get my vote if not my ear. Don |
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02 Oct 99 - 08:34 PM (#120160) Subject: RE: Changing folk songs to suit us From: Chet W. I've said many times, change a song, folk or not, to suit your own needs. In other words, make the song fit you, don't make yourself fit the song. But it does occur to me while reading this thread that there are times when too much change may be inappropriate. I still wouldn't want to censor it, but when you take a song (again, folk, but mostly songs that you know who wrote them) and change it so that it means something entirely different from the author's apparent intention. For a vague example, if you take a song that is about violence, that tells a story about violence being done to particular people by particular others and sing it in such a way that it lets those particular others off the hook, it just wouldn't seem right. Maybe if there is a song which has a theme that is personally repulsive to the singer, if it were me I'd pick a different song. I've often wondered how many "patriotic" spectacles have been held in the last couple of decades by the likes of Pat Buchanan that included the singing of "This Land is Your Land", without anyone knowing that Woody Guthrie was a dedicated communist. I say change away, but maybe don't sanitize a song that was meant to show the dirt. Humbly, Chet |
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02 Oct 99 - 08:44 PM (#120162) Subject: RE: Changing folk songs to suit us From: paddymac Amen for the "folk process". I'm a long way from being a great singer, but I sing for my own enjoyment. If others hear it and enjoy it, that's wonderful. But if they don't enjoy it, or if I don't enjoy the setting of the moment - well, we all have feet (at least metaphorically). |
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02 Oct 99 - 09:33 PM (#120169) Subject: RE: Changing folk songs to suit us From: aesop Folk songs have always been changed to suit the singer. That's why there are so many versions of everything. Writing folk songs down, or recording them, is a recent phenomenon, and only purists expect them to stay the same forever. It's interesting to study folk music as a window into to past. But to perform a song you have to be comfortable with it and make it your own. |
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02 Oct 99 - 10:22 PM (#120178) Subject: RE: Changing folk songs to suit us From: wildlone The same thing can be said about parody's,I for one like them but some people get very upset when they hear them sung. yours WL [nursing his bruise's & broken arm in front of the computor 3am] Now thats the name for a song. |
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03 Oct 99 - 08:58 PM (#120331) Subject: RE: Changing folk songs to suit us From: Malcolm Douglas By all means make whatever changes to a traditional song that you feel are appropriate; provided that you tell your audience what changes you have made, and why. There is a big difference between the normal, usually gradual, changes that occur in the course of oral transmission, and deliberate changes that may alter fundamentally the tone or meaning of the song. We owe some respect to the material that others have given us, and that means that, while we are free to interpret that material in any way we see fit, we also have a duty to make it clear where we have made changes to it. The fact that this has not been the normal practice in the past is beside the point; times have changed. Of course, a song that seems to require substantive alteration before you are comfortable singing it may simply be the wrong song for you in the first place. Malcolm |
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03 Oct 99 - 10:36 PM (#120353) Subject: RE: Changing folk songs to suit us From: DonMeixner Dear Emily, I feel that I am at last on the side of angels in an issue here. Everyone agrees with me so far. And there by supports you. What you do to a song is up to you. I have long had opinnions on censorship and thought about it for years. As it aplys to literature and art in the publishing world mainly. But what you propose is a personal choice. Just as my wanting to hear you sing is a personal choice. That is clearly not censorship. But should someone tell you before you sing what you may and may not sing isn't necessarily censorship either. This would depend on your contract and the editorial policy of the concert promoter you have agreed to work for. By the way, I find it interesting to note that my original post was editted before it showed up in the thread. Censorship? Maybe, but I doubt it. Violation of editorial content? Probably. Nothing gray here in my mind. Any other thoughts? Bring em on. Don |
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03 Oct 99 - 11:01 PM (#120359) Subject: RE: Changing folk songs to suit us From: catspaw49 Don......Wrong,wrong,wrong.....You're completely off base here and your arguments have no merit. You cannot adequately state the case you have made through the use of such pathetic logic.....and the fact that I too agree with should be enough for you to see just how wrong you are. Spaw |
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03 Oct 99 - 11:10 PM (#120366) Subject: RE: Changing folk songs to suit us From: DonMeixner Spaw, I'm not surprised, we are after all siamese twins separeted at birth and lent to itinterents who couldn't ditch you quick enough. While I have lived in the lap of the lowerclass for these 48 long years. Don whon knows he just sent a personal jibe through an otherwise important thread. |
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03 Oct 99 - 11:37 PM (#120378) Subject: RE: Changing folk songs to suit us From: Barry Finn Why don't I sing my version of Lady Franklin's Lament, the one where Lord Franklin comes home like Ulysses a hero for finding the true Northwest Passage & spends the next 10 years in China with his first mate's wife. Or instead of just changing the he to a she why not sing about how our main character marries the Creole Boy on the Plains of Buffalo instead of the Lakes of the Ponchatrain (all known versions he's or is it she's still rejected). Traditional songs have been shaped over the years, many years & subtle changes have been accepted or rejected by listeners & singers alike keeping the song as is or allowing for gradual change for the better without altering the song's intent or integrity.
On the subject of changing a songwriter's song it's a little more touchy. If it's a good or a great song why change it's meaning or intent, did the writer give their stamp of approval, can you change it NOT enough so you give time a chance to tell weither or not the change is needed or even wanted. There are some cases where additional verses ("Sonny's Dream") have been accepted & taken on & some where slight changes ("Jack In The Green") have also been taken on but it's few that have worked as well as these 2.
I guess I'm out here on my own but I'm also quilty of doing it when I've found only a verse or 2 & after searching for years finally wrote a couple of verses to a few songs that I felt where too great to be so short only to find in one case the full version many (20) years later & by that time couldn't give up my additional verses.
So I guess what I'm really saying is to respect the song above all else & keep it's original intent intact & please be gental the older they are the more you need to handle them with care & the less change there (if at all) is warranted. |
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04 Oct 99 - 12:54 PM (#120530) Subject: RE: Changing folk songs to suit us From: Bert Good for you Emily, You sing 'em the way they fit you. |
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04 Oct 99 - 01:21 PM (#120542) Subject: RE: Changing folk songs to suit us From: selby Folk Songs belong to the people and as such should be sung as the singer feels they want to sing them. There has to be a note of caution added that the original thread of the song must not be lost. To loose that would be to rewrite the tradition. having said that we only have the colectors word for the authenticity of the Song in the first place.The same rule must also apply to tunes and without getting too political. How many tunes are changed to suit the melodeon and bodrhan. Keith |
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04 Oct 99 - 01:43 PM (#120559) Subject: RE: Changing folk songs to suit us From: bseed(charleskratz) I wouldn't call changing a song to fit your own sensibilities "arranging," I'd call it "adapting." I think the first thread I ever started here was to post my adapted version of Bob Gibson's "Abilene." I changed one line in the second verse and added a couple of verses because the original seems to me to be kind of a secular spiritual, and I wanted to emphasize that. There are in the DigiTrad additional verses to the song which I don't feel add anything to it but length. I sang the song last night in the Starry Plough--song and singer well received. --seedcreepingjustabittoblowhisownhorn |
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04 Oct 99 - 01:54 PM (#120566) Subject: RE: Changing folk songs to suit us From: catspaw49 No seed, I think you were exactly to the point......just stay off the "What is Folk" threads.(:+) Spaw |
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04 Oct 99 - 03:40 PM (#120611) Subject: RE: Changing folk songs to suit us From: Mudjack I'm Guilty ! |
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04 Oct 99 - 04:26 PM (#120638) Subject: RE: Changing folk songs to suit us From: Chet W. Sing, sing by all means. And change when you think you should. I guess it's the political aspect of certain songs that concerns me. What if somebody did a version of Woody's "Deportees" that made it sound like blowing them up in an airplane was a swell idea. That would strike me as wrong somehow. As for nonpolitical songs, I change 'em all the time; it's one of my specialties. Chet |
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04 Oct 99 - 06:11 PM (#120690) Subject: RE: Changing folk songs to suit us From: lamarca I like singing ballads a WHOLE bunch. I frequently do to them what I do to recipes when I'm cooking - I look up or listen to all the versions I can find of the same story (or recipe) and mix the ingredients (or verses) that appeal to me the most. What comes out maybe isn't Authentic Cuban picadillo or a completely "traditional" version of Hind Horn (meaning I didn't sing "Version 8.0.2" exactly the way it was printed in Child after being collected by Motherwell from Buchan's book of someone's vague memory of a shepherd's rendition in 1732, complete with missing words and leaving out the verse about the bridegroom coming down to find his bride's gone away with the beggar), but I keep the storyline intact, and pick a version of the tune within my range (using the ingredients I have available), and go check the local ethnic grocery store for the right spices (and the library for traditional versions to cobble together). IMHO, the end results are pretty good, even if they're not completely traditional - but then, I'm not Cuban, and I'm not learning my songs from my mother's knee. I tend to agree with Barry, though - whether you're doing a traditional or recently written song, try not to change its spirit. If the message of "Prince Heathen" really disturbs you, it's better not to sing it than to distort it to something it isn't. If there's different traditional versions of a song that have different endings, like "The Golden Vanity", I'll pick the storyline I like best, sometimes add in verses from other versions, and then use the tune that fits the words and my vocal range the best. Purist snobs (some of them are my best friends) may disapprove, but I feel I'm keeping alive a story, and enjoying myself while I do it! |
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04 Oct 99 - 10:35 PM (#120777) Subject: RE: Changing folk songs to suit us From: Susan-Marie Whew - I am glad to be in this thread after the criticism I got in the "O caide sin" thread for posting an english translation. Or maybe I'm presuming too much - do most of you think that the acceptability of altering a folk song extends to putting it in a different language (e.g., one your listeners understand, I'm not talking gratuitious translations to old German here)? |
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04 Oct 99 - 10:47 PM (#120786) Subject: RE: Changing folk songs to suit us From: Malcolm Douglas Nothing wrong with a translation so long as it's well made and you say that's what it is. What annoys me is people singing songs in languages they don't understand! Malcolm |
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04 Oct 99 - 10:51 PM (#120789) Subject: RE: Changing folk songs to suit us From: catspaw49 Gee, I believe we're all in basic agreement here......... CLOSE THE THREAD --- QUICK!!!! Spaw |
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04 Oct 99 - 10:54 PM (#120790) Subject: RE: Changing folk songs to suit us From: sophocleese NO NO NO!! KEEP IT OPEN! I disagreed with you. That make you feel better 'Spaw? |
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04 Oct 99 - 11:59 PM (#120822) Subject: RE: Changing folk songs to suit us From: catspaw49 Yeah cleeso, that'll do it.......Now it's my turn to post 36 paragraphs of boring drivel on the meaning of "Thread Close" and it's importance to differentiate it from "Thread Death" or the more popular "Thread Creep" and how Close is the only true end, whereas the slower Death and Creep are not real and will never help one to achieve true close. ......Okay, now pretend you are reading the 34 paragraphs of pablum.............................Finished? OK..... So I'll end it here and I just want to leave with the thought that no matter what, creep can never be considered Close and although Death is similar, it cannot be true. Spaw |
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05 Oct 99 - 02:18 AM (#120857) Subject: RE: Changing folk songs to suit us From: bseed(charleskratz) I didn't know that. --seed |
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05 Oct 99 - 02:14 PM (#120979) Subject: RE: Changing folk songs to suit us From: catspaw49 Of course you didn't and I'm happy to share my vast knowledge, unchangeable opinions, and Completely Reliable Asinine Positions with you and others who wish to sit at my feet and pay homage to my self professed and therefore totally reliable expertise in these matters. Spaw |
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05 Oct 99 - 06:47 PM (#121062) Subject: RE: Changing folk songs to suit us From: Guy Wolff Ronald Reagan's take on Woody Guthrie "This land is my land ,This land is my land. Get off of my land ,This land is my land. This land is my land and only my land this land belongs to only me!!!!!!" Is this thread distuction???? I can never remember the originals anyway and with 20 or 30 years they all become "new" with living with them.. Hi gang<<<>>> Guy |
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05 Oct 99 - 08:40 PM (#121095) Subject: RE: Changing folk songs to suit us From: catspaw49 I love you Guy!!! LMAO......See if you can lend a little sense to some of our folks who are stuck trying to pigeonhole the meaning of folk on some of the other threads!!! Spaw |