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02 Oct 99 - 06:25 PM (#120128) Subject: 1997 op/ed on possible new Scots anthem From: katlaughing I found this rather interesting and though you all might, too. Interesting history on God save The Queen.....kat
A song for Scotland If it is indeed time to ditch the world's oldest national anthem, what should we replace it with? asks Ian Bell 18/12/97
If Scotland is serious about a new anthem of its own it might also wish to pay some attention to the sentiments of the song. Czechoslovakia's eventual division into Slovakia and the Czech Republic, for example, should not have come as a surprise to anyone familiar with the old anthem of the Czech faction, Kde Domuv Muj. In English, that posed the somewhat baffling question: "Where is My Native Land?" The Slovaks preferred the altogether more mysterious Lightning Above the Mountains.
The Norwegians, too, did not seem to sure of themselves when they settled on Ja Vi Elsker Dette Landet (Yes, We Love This Country). Canada, for its part, tested the patience of music lovers and pressed its claim to be one of the world's least exciting countries with The Maple Leaf Forever.
The truth is, indeed, that there is perhaps only one great anthem in the world and the French are using it. True, its lyrics seem to encourage the practice of wading in blood, but as Paul Henreid demonstrated playing a musical resistant in the film Casablanca, La Marseillaise has "inspirational" in spades. An equivalent scene involving GSTQ - best associated in the minds of an older generation with a cue to flee from cinemas - is impossible to imagine.
But then, different nations demand different things from their anthems. Little countries want tunes to make them sound big; warlike countries want tunes to make them sound like winners. Fading nations like our own are fond of tunes which remind them of glories past. Those new on the scene - such as the communist states, in their beginning - want to sing of victories to come, of filthy capitalists crushed underfoot and free tractors for all.
GSTQ has several curious ironies attached to it, in any case. Popularised amid the wave of relief that followed Charles Stuart's failure to proceed beyond Derby in the '45, its melody has been traced to a Scottish carol (Remember, O thou man) and its lyrics attributed to a Scotsman, James Oswald, who settled in London in 1742 and worked for the publisher of the early copies of the anthem.
Plainly, given his willingness to throw in a few anti-Caledonian sentiments, Oswald was the original model for J M Barrie's Scotsman on the make. For all that, early versions of the song were actually sung by Stuart supporters.
Nevertheless, as Linda Colley recounts in her study Britons: Forging the Nation 1707-1837, it was Britain that gave the world the word "anthem" by dint of GSTQ and hence the idea of a state-approved song around which a country could rally in times of crisis or triumph. The purpose of GSTQ, indeed, was to reassert faith in Britain's identity as a Protestant country at a time when that was under grave threat.
Charles Stuart had almost pulled it off, after all, and largely through the incompetence of the British state itself. Despite that, God had indeed sent George II victorious and when the anthem was sung for the first time - in a London theatre in September, 1745 - it is said that those present received it "rapturously".
So the song's career as the original ambiguous message began. For many non-Britons it has long been a hymn to British arrogance and imperialism. Some Scots have never accepted it; the Irish long despised it. As royal houses began to follow the dinosaurs of the face of the earth, GSTQ's apparent obsession with the person of the monarch struck more than one observer as a shade peculiar. The anthem, by that account, summed up British deference and the British class system.
Hence, perhaps, the bizarre habit of playing it at the conclusion of an evening's television broadcasting. What was the thinking? That a nation of couch potatoes could retire to their beds secure in the knowledge that the Royal House survived while His/Her Majesty's Navy patrolled the sea?
With Land of Hope and Glory and Rule Britannia, GSTQ came fully into its own, perhaps, during Britain's imperial zenith. The imperial trilogy - message: Britain is best; we'll thump anyone who says otherwise; Gawd Bless Yer Ma'am - could unite the nation, Scotland included, because the nation understood its own identity.
With the empire gone and the monarchy itself in question, the purpose of GSTQ, far less its terrifying tunelessness, seems harder to identify. Even the Britishness to which it relates (an "always partial invention", as Colley admits) is no longer unquestioned. The formula by which one could claim to be both Scottish and British, sing GSTQ and Scots Wha' Hae with equal gusto, is no longer acceptable to many.
We see the divide already at work in sporting occasions, when Scots expect and demand a song of their own, even when they insist on an execrable cod-Jacobite nonsense to replace unsingable Hanoverian propaganda. Childish, perhaps, but this republican does not stand for GSTQ when called upon to do so, never has, and enjoys the irritation of loyalists.
In any case, as even they have noticed, God is no longer indisputably British. The personal relationship between monarch and deity is no longer an article of faith. Times - and countries - change.
Yet anthems matter, even when their effect is negative. No self-respecting nation, whether superpower or tiny, tinpot dictatorship, is without one. When the 26 counties of Ireland achieved their independence God Save the King was the first to go but a martial ditty, The Soldier's Song, was demanded to underpin the founding myth of the republic. Former British colonies everywhere have done the same, as anyone who has suffered the Australian national anthem will attest.
Nevertheless, loved or loathed, GSTQ remains the Ur-anthem, the model for all the others. Each parping little brass band atrocity from around the globe owes something to it, whatever deference is paid to local culture. GSTQ has given us the idea of how an anthem should sound and any composer recruited by the Arts Council will be deep in controversy after the first performance if he or she has deviated much from marching band chauvinism.
But then, if the SAC's idea ever gets off the ground there will be arguments over the new anthem to dwarf any debate over the site for a Scottish parliament. People have very firm ideas about the subject, as those who have previously attempted to find a suitable tune for Scotland have discovered. "Godawful" is a word generally and generously applied.
Nevertheless, it may be that the SAC's wheeze is a symptom rather than a solution. Even if does not mean the end of Britain, home rule marks the end of one kind of Britishness. The old arrangement is falling apart. The process described by Colley in which Scotland, Wales and England drew together - and surprisingly quickly - in late 18th and early 19th century is in reverse. "Our" queen? "Our" hopes? If the reality is gone, why preserve the trappings?
The SAC has one small obstacle to cross, of course. Though it argues that a new anthem should be commissioned to inaugurate a new era in Scotland, it seems to overlook the fact that the subject of GSTQ will still be very much around. Even the Scottish National Party does not propose to sever the link with the monarch in the event of independence. If we still have a Queen, why replace her anthem?
Doubtless the SAC would say it is suggesting no such thing. Presumably it wants GSTQ retained for times when HM is around, with the new anthem being used on other "official" Scottish occasions.
Yet surely this would simply restate the question of identity time and again. GSTQ has helped to forge Britishness. Are we then to believe we can be British sometimes and Scottish when it suits; Scots among ourselves, separate and singing our own way through the world, British when royalty comes to call?
Therein lies the potency of anthems. Colley has argued that in the 18th century and afterwards "men and women shuffled identities like cards". That was only possible, however, because the shared idea of Britishness provided an anchor and a confidence that allowed local variations. Now Britain's military and commercial supremacy has gone; its future relationship with Europe is an unsolved mystery; and nothing can be taken for granted about its monarchy. What remains of Britishness involves the past, a shared history, and an old song.
These days, it is a song mocked and revered in equal reverence. It has been appropriated by English football thugs; sent up by the Sex Pistols; mocked by satirists. Sometimes it is solemn, sometimes a joke. But then, everyone's anthem is a joke to someone else, generally because the melodies have been specially crafted to bring out the worst in the average band but more often because we do not understand the emotions invoked and aroused by someone else's national tune.
As to that, what might one of our poets come up with to capture the spirit of Scotland in song? Would we succumb to the tartanry to which Scots themselves are secretly addicted? Would we celebrate the scenery? What sentiments could be heard - and in tune - as easily from football fans, statesmen or the Alexander Brothers? What do we think of ourselves that might warrant this imagined anthem of ours?
In other words, if you want a national anthem, first find your nation.
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02 Oct 99 - 08:54 PM (#120163) Subject: RE: 1997 op/ed on possible new Scots anthem From: paddymac Kat- interesting, indeed, and thought provoking. Where in the world did you find it? |
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02 Oct 99 - 11:56 PM (#120207) Subject: RE: 1997 op/ed on possible new Scots anthem From: katlaughing I was searching Yahoo for the answer to the thread UP With Cazaly or whatever it is called, about the Aussie Football Anthem and since I had anthem in the search words, this came up. I thought it was esp. intersting abot the history. Thanks, Paddymac, kat |
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03 Oct 99 - 10:03 PM (#120345) Subject: RE: 1997 op/ed on possible new Scots anthem From: Morayman But... The Maple Leaf Forever is NOT the Canadian national anthem. Go to a hockey game where a Canadian team is playing (if you live outside Canada); you'll find it's "O Canada". Slainte! |
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03 Oct 99 - 11:06 PM (#120361) Subject: RE: 1997 op/ed on possible new Scots anthem From: katlaughing Ya know, I wondered about that, but I couldn't remember. Thanks, Morayman! all the best, kat |
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05 Oct 99 - 03:02 PM (#120987) Subject: RE: 1997 op/ed on possible new Scots anthem From: Murray on Saltspring "O Canada" has a tune from Quebec, and there are French words (O Canada, terre de nos aieux, = O Canada, land of our forefathers), and also English words, which are NOT a translation. Maybe Scotland could take a hint from this. What about a bilingual anthem, in Gaelic and Scots [NOT English?!!]-- the possibilities are interesting, don;t you think? I must say, we'll have to keep out of it any blood like the French!! |
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06 Oct 99 - 01:16 PM (#121343) Subject: RE: 1997 op/ed on possible new Scots anthem From: Mick Frankly I found tha article a load of self indulgent shite. I would gae on and explain but I fear that would mean spending hours o'er tha keyboard an' I canna stand tha thought of that. Suffice tae say tha Scottish public effectively chose "Flo'er of Scotland" as it reflected common feelings amangst many. Allowing governments or arts councils tae dictate national anthems is wrang. It should be like how the Australians did it with a formal vote or like that Scots and tha Welsh etc where the public unofficially chose their national anthem... |
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06 Oct 99 - 02:21 PM (#121373) Subject: RE: 1997 op/ed on possible new Scots anthem From: Marki I've got to agree with Mick there. Flower of Scotland is meaningful and melodic, something alot of national anthems lack. For instance, the incredibly boring "Oh Canada". I'm Canadian and to this day still wonder what the heck brought that about. I've heard that back in the '60's (Trudeau era) some twit decided that the song "The Maple Leaf Forever" wasn't properly representing the different cultures in Canada and thus it needed to be changed. Okay, so the French weren't mentioned, but at least it had some history and a good tune. Now we're stuck with the most tedious national anthem in the world, which it seems as though most Canadians don't even know the words! I definately think Scotland needs her own anthem. The old "God Save the Queen" is second only to "Oh Canada" in the extremely boring national anthems category. If Scotland didn't want to go with "Flower of Scotland", another great possibility would be "Scotland the Brave (Scotland Forever)". No, not the really common one that talks about pipers and all that. The one that starts off "Let Italy boast of her gay, gilded waters, her vines and her bowers and her soft sunny skies; her sons drinking love from the eyes of her daughters while freedom is lost amidst softness and sighs...." (I'm not sure if those lyrics are here on the mudcat). And as for keeping a national anthem pretty and un-bloody, that's so PC. Personally I want an anthem that has a history, that makes me feel proud of being a Canadian. (The lines "true, north, strong and free" in my national anthem make me laugh. I think the only correct word there is "north"!) There's nothing wrong with having pride in ones country but in order to have pride in your country, there's got to be something to encourage it. Whether it's the actual words of the national anthem or the music. (I don't speak Russian, but gosh I love the music of their anthem). So what if you think your country's the best in the world. That's your opinion. Who cares if others don't agree with you? Nowadays though nobody wants to express their opinion because it might offend somebody. So what? It's only an OPINION! That doesn't make it right or wrong! I know I got a bit off the topic there, but it just sort of slipped out. As a "transplanted" Scot, I couldn't help but do a bit of ranting regarding this. |
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06 Oct 99 - 03:18 PM (#121391) Subject: RE: 1997 op/ed on possible new Scots anthem From: katlaughing Mick and Marki, thank you for your comments. That's the kind of interesting stuff I was hoping would come about when I stumbled upon this and posted the thread. Most of my ancestors were from Scotland, and then, Nova Scotia (Crawfords, Sutherlands, Fountains, Ewings and others) and I have always had a strong affinity for Scotland, sometimes even over my own country, the USA. Thanks, again, katlaughing |
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06 Oct 99 - 04:09 PM (#121412) Subject: RE: 1997 op/ed on possible new Scots anthem From: Gayle Atkins-martin proud to say that at the last Celtic Festival I attended in Grand Junction, Colorado. Flower of Scotland was sung as the National Anthem for Scotland. We had a visiting guest from the clan Gordon open the ceremonies and he led the singing with a local celtic choir backing. I was proud to sing along. and I know the words where I dont for gstq. I am a british isles heinz 57 in heritage, but very proud of the Scots side of the mix. I agree that Flower of Scotland is a excellent song and hopefully we will rise again and get the brits off of ours and ireland and wales backs. They don't need to be in charge of anyone but themselves these days. |
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06 Oct 99 - 05:29 PM (#121440) Subject: RE: 1997 op/ed on possible new Scots anthem From: Susanne (skw) Mick and Marki - Flower of Scotland certainly is very popular (mainly at football matches, I'm told) but other people have pointed out that it is essentially AGAINST something, which perhaps doesn't make it an ideal national anthem. Also, by its very nature it was meant for times when Scotland is not a recognised separate nation. As soon as she can have her own national anthem that doesn't apply any more, does it? I tend to favour Hamish Henderson's 'Freedom Come-All-Ye' because to me the sentiments it expresses are so much more humane than those of 'Flower of Scotland'. But then, you could say I should keep my mouth shut, not being a Scot at all. Also, I've read that Henderson himself would prefer his song to stay 'unofficial'. Still, as a last resort there is Robert Burns' 'A Man's A Man', although you could say that is AGAINST and thus disqualified as well. - Susanne |
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07 Oct 99 - 05:39 AM (#121605) Subject: RE: 1997 op/ed on possible new Scots anthem From: GeorgeH Hey, this thread's a "blast from the past". De facto it's almost certainly "Flower of Scotland" but, as indicated, there is reasoned objection to that. Gaughan's reworking of "Both sides the Tweed" gets my vote: What's the spring-breathing jasmine and rose ? What's the summer with all its gay train Or the splendour of autumn to those Who've bartered their freedom for gain? Let the love of our land's sacred rights To the love of our people succeed Let friendship and honour unite And flourish on both sides the Tweed. No sweetness the senses can cheer Which corruption and bribery bind No brightness that gloom can e'er clear For honour's the sum of the mind Let virtue distinguish the brave Place riches in lowest degree Think them poorest who can be a slave Them richest who dare to be free G. |
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07 Oct 99 - 07:53 PM (#121878) Subject: RE: 1997 op/ed on possible new Scots anthem From: Susanne (skw) Thank you, George. I forgot about that one, probably because I love the tunes of both Henderson's and Burns' songs so much. You're perfectly right, of course. - Susanne |
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08 Oct 99 - 09:01 AM (#122026) Subject: RE: 1997 op/ed on possible new Scots anthem From: GeorgeH Thanks for the kind words (skw) - sorry I forgot the line breaks . . . I hate HTML editors which appear to be plain text editors!! Little credit to me, really - Gaughan wrote his words to the song in reaction to the UK gvmt backing away from a Scotish Parliament at one point, and has touted it as an appropriate form for a National anthem. Certainly I find its sentiments both powerful and compelling. And almost an antidote to the xenophobia of the Tory party at rabble-rousing. Also I should have cited the source of Gaughan's words; they are from his web site; more specifically, http://www.dickalba.demon.co.uk/songs/texts/tweed.htm Worth visiting for Dick's comments on the song. G. |
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08 Oct 99 - 01:51 PM (#122120) Subject: RE: 1997 op/ed on possible new Scots anthem From: j0_77 Kat you have opened pandoras box - there's no bottom to it either! The Wee Fluer - hmmm it celebrates courage and tenacity two of Scotland's gifts to the rest of mankind. It is Scotland for me at least. I hope they adopt the Song, besides it has a great melody and is very nice to sing. Mick you sum up soooo welll. My favorite quote 'In any case, as even they have noticed, God is no longer indisputably British. The personal relationship between monarch and deity is no longer an article of faith. Times - and countries - change. ' Hmmmm could have fooled me ....'times have changed' sure but nothing else. 'God is no longer indisputably British'
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08 Oct 99 - 04:55 PM (#122158) Subject: RE: 1997 op/ed on possible new Scots anthem From: katlaughing Jo77, opening Pandora's boxes seems to be my job:-) |
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09 Oct 99 - 08:38 PM (#122360) Subject: RE: 1997 op/ed on possible new Scots anthem From: Sam Hudson Personally, I loathe GSTQ. I think it's a dirge. *s* A response to Gayle Atkin-Martin, who says: "...hopefully we will rise again and get the brits off of ours and ireland and wales backs. They don't need to be in charge of anyone but themselves these days." 'Brits' includes Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales. If by 'Brits' you mean the English, then have a close look at the process of devolution going on right now. Many English people would cheerfully dissolve the United Kingdom entirely and let Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland go their own way; as things stand at the moment, the English taxpayer makes a huge net contribution to the economies of those areas. Independence is a twin-edged sword. It's all a moot point anyway, as European Union is going to make all the old territorial groupings meaningless. |
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10 Oct 99 - 12:33 PM (#122474) Subject: RE: 1997 op/ed on possible new Scots anthem From: Celtic-End Singer Sam- I don't recall "The English Taxpayer" subsidising the UK economy to the tune of 31 billion pounds over the last ten years (Like the Scots did with North Sea Oil). I don't recall the English having to tolerate unfair taxes on domestic and vehicle fuel which disproptionately attack northern or remote Scottish communities. I certainly don't recall the English suffering an extra two years of Thatcher's ill-concieved Poll-Tax. Don't make stupid, uninformed points about things you clearly don't understand. If the English are so happy about letting the Scots, Welsh and Irish free then why is it that last week the commander-in-chief of English nationalism (i.e. William Hague, leader of Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition) announced plans to abolish the devolved parliaments if the Tories get re-elected? Why are Tories trying to systematically undermine the occupied territories peace initiative by inviting UUP leader David Trimble on to the platform at the Tory party conference to cheers of "Rule Brittannia!" and the waving of Union flags? Why are they forever winging about the handing over of rebel weapons and essentially supporting the failure of the UUP to deliver on the Good Friday Accords which they signed up to? And it's not just the Tories, BTW, what about the British Labour Party (Emblem the English Red Rose) always hammering on about Scottish National Party "separitists". Why were their referendums on devolution based on a government white paper rather than act of Parliament? Answer- because since then there hjave been 68 ammendments to further limit the powers of the Scottish Parliament. On the subject of anthems? I think it's pretty pointless to have one when you don't have a country yet to sing about. And they nearly always wine on about (The frankly irrelevant) past rather than the crucial future. I don't like Flower Of Scotland, it's for yobs who drink lager at rugby matches and have their entire history of Scottish culture defined to them by the BBC. I don't like Scotland The Brave becauase it presents a cliched, shortbread tin image of Scotland that we don't need, and I don't like. If we're going to have an anthem let's have Burns' "A Man's A Man" and leave it be. The bloody song will only be sung at Hampden, Murrayfield and pub closing-time anyway. When we have a free nation - then I'll sing it. |
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10 Oct 99 - 12:40 PM (#122475) Subject: RE: 1997 op/ed on possible new Scots anthem From: Celtic-End Singer PS Sam- The Northern Irish aren't "Brits". Quite clearly your knowledge of geography is as poor as your knowledge of politics. Great Britain is the Island which comprises Scotland, England and Wales. It was called Great Britain following the Acts of Union in order to distinguish it from Brittany, in northern France. That's why it's called the "United Kingdom Of Great Btritain and Northern Ireland". Northern Irish people have never been, are not and never will be "Brits", at least from a geographical perspective. |
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10 Oct 99 - 02:56 PM (#122513) Subject: RE: 1997 op/ed on possible new Scots anthem From: Sam Hudson Celtic-End Singer, thanks for your robust contribution to the debate. *s* As far as the North Sea oil goes, it's a very poor argument that says the Scots 'subsidised' the UK economy thereby. Extend the England/Scotland border into the North Sea, as international law dictates, and a nominal Scottish share wouldn't be anything like so much as is often imagined. Further, do you really think Scotland, free and independent, could have financed the exploitation of the oilfield? You're nearer the mark when you talk of the 'UK economy' though. The oil revenues have benefited Scotland immensely, if indirectly, in employment, trade and the undeniable huge net flow of money from England into Scotland. Your comments about Tory policy are fine as far as they go, but you'll notice that the English threw the Tories out and don't show any signs of letting them back in. As you said yourself, let's not "wine on about (The frankly irrelevant) past rather than the crucial future." As for the Labour Party's policy on Scotland, well, sure, it's not perfect, but wouldn't you agree that at least it's taking steps in the right direction? And if Scottish voters didn't think they were enough, why didn't they give a clear mandate to the SNP? Your point on fuel I take to heart, but it's a burden on all of us who don't live within the M25 belt; it's stretching the point too far to adduce it as an example of anti-Scottish feeling, surely? Having said all that, I think 'A Man's A Man' is a great song and one which I enjoy performing, despite being half Welsh. *s* |
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10 Oct 99 - 08:31 PM (#122570) Subject: RE: 1997 op/ed on possible new Scots anthem From: katlaughing Am sitting here enjoying Thistle & Shamrock as the whole show is in honour of Scotland and its new parliament. She's played Flower of Scotland, one by Burns about the Rogues who signed over the Parliament 300 years ago and a new one called When the People Speak, a beautiful song by Dougie McClain (sp), but I am not sure I'd would want it adopted as an official anthem, if I was Scottish. Having so much ancestry which was Scottish, English, and Irish, I find all of this very interesting. Thanks to you all. kat |