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10 Dec 11 - 01:45 AM (#3271346) Subject: BS: Europe forges fiscal union From: michaelr They did it. EU leaders managed to convince even non-Euro countries to make unprecedented concessions on their sovereignty to form a fiscal union. The only naysayer? Britain. Story here. What do you think - will this move save Europe, or is it its death knell? |
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10 Dec 11 - 03:42 AM (#3271356) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union From: akenaton It all matters little, this is simply politicians attempting to justify their existance There is no economic growth and no way under the present financial system of generating any. What you see in Europe today, you will see in America to morrow. The present situation is OUR sins being visited on our children. Our greed and stupidity has caused the crash, tho it was always inevitable. Sorry SRS still no happy ending. Shouldn't you be watching the Disney channel? |
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10 Dec 11 - 03:47 AM (#3271358) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union From: Richard Bridge Well, those were the only terms on which Germany was prepared to carry on as paymaster for a while. It seems to me that the UK is now on its way to leaving the EU. But anything that Mark Reckless MP and Boris Bloody Stupid Johnson approve of has got to be very worrying. |
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10 Dec 11 - 05:13 AM (#3271392) Subject: BS: Cameron's Veto on Europe From: GUEST,Shimrod So, what do we think of this then? My, vaguely lefty, interpretation is that our very wonderful PM has caved in to the demands of the rabid, xenophobic 'Eurosceptics' in his party, and his rich chums in the City, and we're all doomed to isolation and decline. Can anyone see any positives? Threads combined. -Mod |
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10 Dec 11 - 05:45 AM (#3271399) Subject: RE: BS: Cameron's Veto on Europe From: GUEST,Bluesman I think David Cameron did the right thing. He stood defiantly behind this historic veto of a new EU power grab. I would like to see us out of the EU altogether, we really need a referendum on it so the true British people can have a voice. I hope the markets now show their disgust for the Euro and it crashes and burns. Germany and its Poodle France want to run Europe, let them. A 26 member state will always have problems and will continue to do so. David Cameron has shown countries how to exit the EU with style, grace and manners unlike Merkel and Sarkozy who have shown how immature these so called 'great' leaders really are. If the boot was on the other foot they would do exactly the same for their own countries. We are not part of the Euro so why should Brussels rule us and our finances. If we do get out of Europe, we would save billions in Social Security benefit payments to a quarter of Poland. |
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10 Dec 11 - 06:25 AM (#3271410) Subject: RE: BS: Cameron's Veto on Europe From: GUEST,Shimrod Thanks, Bluesman for spouting the usual Eurosceptic line ... or, rather, thanks for nothing! If being in Europe is such a disadvantage why haven't previous governments, both Labour and Tory, taken us out of it? I suspect that the referendum, that you espouse so fervently, would merely be represent an opportunity for xenophobes to vent their spleen. Conversely I, and people like me, would probably vote to stay in because we believe in internationalism. Nevertheless, xenophobia vs internationalism is really a side issue and most of us probably don't have a clear enough understanding of the real issues in order to vote effectively in the county's best interests. Does anyone have any idea of the possible long(er) term outcomes of Cameron's veto? |
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10 Dec 11 - 06:59 AM (#3271419) Subject: RE: BS: Cameron's Veto on Europe From: Richard Bridge Well, I'm clear that the market bounces on the main exchanges were merely relief that it was not worse - at least the other countries are doing something in a vaguely agreed manner. Fairly obviously the absence of a (former) major player from Europe's top table adversely affects the prospects of defending the Euro. It's a shame that no-one is really addressing the real problem - of capital free from controls and free capital markets - but that is probably too controversial for right now. The view from the USA appears to be that Cameron has made matters worse not better, and although we have a trade deficit with Europe it's smaller than our deficit elsewhere (and also smaller pro rata I think) so a diminution of European trade will harm the UK's overall balance of payments - and tariffs are not an easy answer due to other international commitments such as GATT. So my immediate reaction is that Cameron has harmed not only Europe and the Euro, but also the UK. Longer term, this appears to point ineluctably (referendum or no) to the UK leaving the EU - or at least the EU that matters, ie every other member country at present. On balance I think that will be harmful too. |
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10 Dec 11 - 07:40 AM (#3271439) Subject: RE: BS: Cameron's Veto on Europe From: GUEST,Bluesman Shimrod. Let the people decide and accept the result. |
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10 Dec 11 - 08:29 AM (#3271454) Subject: RE: BS: Cameron's Veto on Europe From: John MacKenzie Of course the other members of the EU aren't going to treat us with due consideration. After all, they've had most of our fish, and destroyed the UK fishing fleet. They've killed our steel industry, and we've been turned into an offshore island, with no more juice left for them to suck. They have emasculated our haulage industry, with the help of succesive UK governments who have pushed up fuel prices, with the result that we cannot compete on price with continental hauliers. We are left with a highly skilled and adaptable work force, desperately seeking employment. Unfortunately most of them are Polish! |
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10 Dec 11 - 08:34 AM (#3271455) Subject: RE: BS: Cameron's Veto on Europe From: SPB-Cooperator As long as the Eurozone members of the Council of Ministers all consult with me before making any decisions that may have and adverse economic impacy on my well being, then it shoudl not be too much of a problem. |
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10 Dec 11 - 09:15 AM (#3271474) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: melodeonboy Too look at this in terms of xenophobia versus internationalism is completely off the mark. It's quite possible for someone to oppose greater fiscal union with other countries without being xenophobic! |
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10 Dec 11 - 10:40 AM (#3271509) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: GUEST,Shimrod "It's quite possible for someone to oppose greater fiscal union with other countries without being xenophobic!" That's true, Melodeonboy - but I still suspect that many of the Eurosceptics on the Tory right are xenophobic at heart. I also think that if we had a referendum on the EU in the UK too many people would fail to grasp the real (economic) issues and vote on the basis of xenophobia or internationalism (which would, as you say, be missing the point). I have to admit that I don't really understand the economic issues. Articles in today's 'Independent' newspaper suggest that,(a) the changes proposed by Merkel, Sarkozy et. al. are anti-democratic and (b) Cameron's support for the City of London is misguided because the City is notoriously short-termist and couldn't give a damn about the rest of the UK. It all seems to come down to European politicians (including ours) being reluctant to regulate the markets or financial institutions ... possibly? |
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10 Dec 11 - 10:53 AM (#3271514) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: akenaton Exactly so Shimrod.....they know only too well that regulation kills the "monster" and when it dies, they die. Some day we are going to have to decide if it is worth our childrens future to keep it alive. But by then, i'm sure we will all be long gone. |
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10 Dec 11 - 01:13 PM (#3271582) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: michaelr I'd like to hear some non-British Europeans weigh in on this. |
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10 Dec 11 - 03:40 PM (#3271679) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: Q (Frank Staplin) Congratulations to Cameron and his supporters. The European "Union" has too many poor relatives. I expect eventual revolt by German voters. |
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10 Dec 11 - 04:36 PM (#3271714) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: The Sandman I am living in Ireland, most of the irish people i have spoken to, understand Englands reluctance to abandon sterling. it simply does not work having 17 countries with the same currency, primarily because a single country cannot devalue to make its exports cheaper. the Germans are adminstering like puppets what the anglo irish bond holders[goldman sachs, j p morgan etc]tell them has to be done so that those wealthy bond bank holders and bank owners are protected |
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10 Dec 11 - 06:32 PM (#3271763) Subject: RE: BS: Cameron's Veto on Europe From: Big Al Whittle The Daily Mail says he's hero. the Guardian says he's an incompetent wanker. You pays your money, you takes your choice. |
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10 Dec 11 - 06:48 PM (#3271766) Subject: RE: BS: Cameron's Veto on Europe From: GUEST,Doc John He says he's protecting Britain's interests. Rising unemployment, wage freezes, decreasing living standards, increasing fuel poverty and child poverty, increasing divide between the rich and poor, big bankers' bonuses... Of course he is: that's why we vote coservative. |
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10 Dec 11 - 06:59 PM (#3271770) Subject: RE: BS: Cameron's Veto on Europe From: gnu Could ya link sommat? Or give us a snippet? Not all of us get the UK news daily... ahhh, most of the Catters here, eh? |
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10 Dec 11 - 09:47 PM (#3271830) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: michaelr The link is in my original post, gnu. |
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10 Dec 11 - 10:18 PM (#3271841) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: Big Al Whittle You won't really find the truth of it in any link. The truth of it is that England has been let down militarily by every country except our old allies of empire days - Australia, India, Canada. We distrust Europe and they're always passing laws that they don't bother enforcing in their own countries. And like twats we keep buggering up our economy and environment by enforcing European laws. And yet we do a lot of business with Europe -so the business brains win the debate everytime. Bonzo will tell you that the Conservative party has all the answers. Dear Richard will tell you that the Conservatives are entirely motivated by greed, and as such they just an additional burden for the English people to bear. There is no simplistic answer, because it is not a simple problem. That's why politicians are not going to supply the answer. They are wedded to the soundbyte - we know all the answers, and 'the answers are simple' culture. this is a problem that is not going to get solved. |
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11 Dec 11 - 04:37 AM (#3271913) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: GUEST,Shimrod "He says he's protecting Britain's interests. Rising unemployment, wage freezes, decreasing living standards, increasing fuel poverty and child poverty, increasing divide between the rich and poor, big bankers' bonuses." When a politician like Cameron (or his predecessors) says that he's "protecting Britain's interests" he doesn't mean that he's protecting the interests of ordinary Britons. |
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11 Dec 11 - 05:36 AM (#3271930) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: John MacKenzie The Conservatives govern for the good of the country. Labour governs for the good of the people. The real problem, is in those who believe that either way, is mutually exclusive. |
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11 Dec 11 - 06:03 AM (#3271935) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: GUEST,Bluesman I think David is doing a great job. He took on a hell of a mess to start with thanks to years of a Labour government that rewarded the workshy, borrowed money and ignored mounting debt. "Rising unemployment, wage freezes, decreasing living standards, increasing fuel poverty and child poverty, increasing divide between the rich and poor, big bankers' bonuses." These are not problems exclusive to the UK. Next you will be saying it's all the Conservatives fault. Take the example in the link below of what the Labour government saddled the British taxpayer with on their watch regarding Europe. Germany and France both warned them against a open door policy. They would not listen and refused time and time again to reveal the true cost of it or release figures. France and Germany will always see us as an island nation no matter what. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-510873/Polish-migrants-living-Britain-claiming-21m-child-benefits-children-left-behind.h |
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11 Dec 11 - 06:03 AM (#3271936) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: GUEST,Shimrod "The Conservatives govern for the good of the country. Labour governs for the good of the people." That may once have been true (although how do you separate "the people" from "the country"?) but the last two Labour governments governed in the interests of the 'free market' and high finance - with a bit of bone-headed, 'box-ticking', doctrinaire social engineering tacked on. The present government governs in the interests of the 'free market' and high finance. |
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11 Dec 11 - 06:09 AM (#3271938) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: GUEST,Bluesman Sorry, that link didn't work, here it it. Published in 2008. "Britain's taxpayers are forking out more than £21million a year in child benefit for youngsters living in Poland, official figures reveal. A loophole in EU regulations means migrants from other EU countries who are seeking work in the UK can claim state handouts for children they have left behind in their home countries. The total benefits bill for the Treasury is likely to be closer to £50million a year when other Eastern European countries are included. In addition, ministers refuse to reveal how much more is being paid out in tax credits. Last night, the revelations prompted demands for a shake-up of the rules, with critics complaining of a "Government-sanctioned scam" at a time when millions of British children remain in poverty. Britain's child benefit payments of £941 per year for a first child or £629 per year for younger siblings are far higher than the equivalent paymentsin Eastern European states that are new EU members. The Polish benefits system, for example, pays a maximum of around £160 per year in child benefit. Investigations have found that many workers moving to Britain are fraudulently claiming family benefits in both countries, exploiting lax checks and poor information sharing between member states. Figures released by the Treasury in answer to Parliamentary written questions from the Conservatives show that at the end of September 26,000 Polish children from 16,286 families were being paid child benefits by UK taxpayers. That means 16,286 first-born children were receiving the full £18.10 per week with the remaining 10,000 getting the lower payment of £12.10 per week. The figures show that the number of claimants is soaring. In June last year, the Treasury said 14,000 families from eight Eastern European states were claiming the benefits - around 10,000 were estimated to be Polish. Open borders: More than 700,000 workers from Eastern Europe have arrived in Britain in the four years since their countries joined the EU Three months later the figure for Poland alone had risen to 16,286. At this rate of increase the benefits bill could more than double in a year, with thousands more Eastern European families joining in the benefits bonanza. Although all the payments are legal under EU law, critics claim they provide an added incentive for immigrants to come to the UK. Britain was one of the only EU states to give workers from eight Eastern European states full access to its jobs market when they joined the EU in 2004. They were: the Czech Republic, Slovakia, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Slovenia, Hungary and Poland. Romania and Bulgaria joined the EU a year ago. Ministers predicted that around 13,000 workers would arrive in Britain each year. In reality more than 700,000 have arrived, more than half from Poland. |
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11 Dec 11 - 06:56 AM (#3271958) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: Big Al Whittle well if the daily mail says its so, that's probably a good indication that its complete bollocks. If you only read things that confirm your prejudices Bonzo, you will never learn. The Independent is quite emphatic that Cameron has TOTALLY buggered up what was already a bad situation. The Times is sheepishly admitting the same. These are no left wing rags. You have made us understand that you are an enthusiatic Conservative. However it is very irritating to hear you cheerleading away as the effects of deflationary policy bite hard. My nephew and his wife are working fulltime jobs, and doing the post at Christmastime just to keep their heads above water financially. They shouldn't have to be doing that. They're not workshy, or profligate - people having a hard time time don't deserve your abuse. Just sod off with all this tory boy stuff. If cameron has got it right or wrong, the truth will no doubt emerge before too long. |
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11 Dec 11 - 07:06 AM (#3271962) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: Big Al Whittle In fact I suspect the tone of your messages is doing your mate 'David' no favours either. You are making my flesh crawl. Its like Uriah Heep, sort of ingratiating and creepy. |
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11 Dec 11 - 07:36 AM (#3271969) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: GUEST,Shining Wit As Al says, The Daily Mail cheered the news but ignoring the Grauniad my worry is the FT booed the news. This is about protecting the City of London although it's arguable that in the long term Cameron's petulance will backfire spectacularly. In fact, none of the noises coming out of the ivory towers of the City are particularly impressed with his somewhat puerile machinations during the negotiations. There are lessons here, but not ones that Tory empiricists will ever have the wit to see. After the war Germany was essentially demilitarised and it's ability to produce weapons, ships etc was diminished along with it's industrial capacity for supporting those industries . . . until the Allies realised that Germany was needed for Europe to recover from the devastation of WWII, so allowed re-industrialisation. With all that effort plied into creating an economic base (at least in the Allied zone) and no need to support a huge military it was inevitable that in the long run this would work to Germany's advantage. The fate of Europe has long been tied to the fortunes of Germany, like it or not. Europe is our biggest trading partner, our ties to Europe go deep indeed and not even the sad fools hankering for the days of empire can ever break those ties, and they won't. Lessons can be learned: Stop spending on military white elephants like Trident and aircraft carries we can apparently live without for a couple of decades and spend the money where it's needed; on the NHS, economic recovery and creating jobs for the million disenfranchised youth. You have to be in it to win it and whilst this sort of gung-ho isolationism appeals to those dullards and backward-looking boors that make up the core tory vote the real world demands a more pragmatic approach to the problem, and had Cameron not been so cowed by a clique of Monday Club backbench cretins then we might be in a better position. Cameron is way out of his depth in government and this embarrassment only goes highlight his inadequacies when dealing with the big players (even Sarkozy looks like an intellectual giant next to Cameron). That said, when you're in the company of such total dunderheads like Gideon, Pickles and Gove he must look like a mental giant to those doltish party wonks around him, relatively speaking. |
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11 Dec 11 - 08:01 AM (#3271977) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: John MacKenzie So the choice then would appear to be. either an offshore fish farm for the EU. Or an offshore aircraft carrier for the USA. If we reduce our military spending any further the US will cut us loose, as we will be of no further use as their European proxy front line, Without the US, we have no alternative but to stay cosy with the EU. Don't forget that all those old 'Empire' countries like New Zealand and Australia were forced due to EU regulations against favourable trade tarrifs for their lamb, and butter etc, to find fresh markets. They are now selling elsewhere, and won't want to come back into the fold, just to be kicked in the teeth, the next time we decide to dump our old friends in search of greener pastures. We have no alternative but to stay in the EU, but the common currency is a mistake, and always has been. I'd rather we had never signed up to quite so deep a commitment as we have, but having made our bed, we must lie in it. |
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11 Dec 11 - 09:07 AM (#3271996) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: Richard Bridge I am not at all clear that conservatives rule for the good of the country. Rather I think they rule for the benefit of the monied. This goes pretty much right back to 1910 |
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11 Dec 11 - 02:00 PM (#3272129) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: GUEST,Bluesman For those outside of the UK, Conservatives look after the industrious, those who see opportunities and in doing so create employment and make money and in return are justly rewarded. Labour looks after the lazy, the benefit leeches, beer swilling union mouthpieces and corner boys. |
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11 Dec 11 - 02:26 PM (#3272135) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: Q (Frank Staplin) I think that very soon France and Germany will realize that they cannot support the struggling economies of much of Europe. As an economic union, the experiment will ultimately fail. Great Britain made a mistake in joining in the integration of the European economy, and the Conservatives are beginning to recognize that. Great Britain will continue to be an important part of NATO. Trade with Europe (and the world) will continue, economic union with Europe not a requirement. The UK has strong trade ties with the Far East, is union with China, South Korea, Japan necessary? Of course not. |
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11 Dec 11 - 03:05 PM (#3272155) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: Big Al Whittle We can only guess if he's done the right thing or not. None of us really know. As you say - apart from the Express and Mail, the chorus of disapproval is deafening. The Times, The FT, The Independant, predictably(as you say the Guardian), The Telegraph...... Perhaps he knows something they don't. Lets hope so and he isn't just currying favour with the right wing euro phobes. It seems that that is the way the French and German politicians and newspapers are seeing it and reporting it. If they are right, that says something about how threatened he feels within his own party. The tories are bastards to their own leaders -remember what Major said about members of the cabinet pissing out of the tent, rather than into it. Its always on this same altar of Europe that the tories offer up their leader. You've got to feel that they're as bad at making a united front as the miners were. Will they be as easy to defeat? Prior to the present international crisis. More people trusted Labour with the economy than the Conservatives. Not surprising after 18 years of high unemployment, economic stagnation, very low wages (supply and demand- people always want to work Bluesman - don't know about you, but most people!) . So the question is, can Labour win at the next election. The veto is supposed to protect the City, but Cameron doesn't seem to be enjoying a vote of thanks from that quarter. Just Bluesman, the blue rinses, and the The Mail.... |
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11 Dec 11 - 03:17 PM (#3272161) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: Don(Wyziwyg)T I don't think that Cameron had any choice in his decision to refuse the deal. There are two major factors here. 1. The city, like it or not (and most of us would say we don't), is responsible for ten percent of our economy. 2. 40% of our trade is with the European Union. There is a conflict inherent in that, since we cannot afford to lose either. Ad to that the fact that the Coalition has enacted a law decreeing that any further transfer of sovereignty to Europe will automatically trigger a referendum, and that the deal on offer would give Brussels authority over our fiscal budgets and the taxing of the city. A "Yes" from Cameron inevitably would have triggered a referendum which might well have the result of our leaving the EU. The only part of EU operations from which we will be excluded is that business which affects only the Eurozone, of which we are not a member. We are still a member of the twenty seven and will have a voice in matters affecting them. Europe needs the City almost as much as we do, which means they need us to remain a member. All in all Cameron, on this occasion, did the best that anyone could have. Don T |
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11 Dec 11 - 03:23 PM (#3272167) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: skarpi I hope Iceland will never join EU Never . UK go out of EU you are much better off than in it . kv Skarpi |
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11 Dec 11 - 04:06 PM (#3272189) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Much more difficult to leave than not to go in in the first place Skarpi. Having thrown away all our former trading partners, we are rather stuck with it. Don T. |
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11 Dec 11 - 04:28 PM (#3272202) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: GUEST,Bluesman Not sure about the blue rinses Alan. I think I an right in saying one uses a little colour himself. |
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11 Dec 11 - 04:56 PM (#3272221) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: Q (Frank Staplin) UK exports, order of importance USA Germany France Netherlands Irish Republic UK imports, order of importance Germany USA China Netherlands France Trade figures in no way will be affected by UK failure to join Eurozone. British fiscal budgets (as pointed out by Don T) remain UK's own business. |
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11 Dec 11 - 05:53 PM (#3272258) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: Richard Bridge Financial services in toto 7.5 percent Don. But the part that Camoron wanted to protect was much much smaller than that. HUtton, writing in the Grauniad says " There might have been a case for David Cameron to veto the use of the EU treaties for the eurozone bailout if Britain's national interests had really been threatenedk. But they were not. Much of British finance in whose name Cameron exercised his veto – routine banking, insurance and accounting – was wholly unaffected by any treaty change. The financial services industry in Britain constitutes 7.5% of GDP and employs a million people; the City represents perhaps a third of that and, in turn, that part threatened – if it was threatened at all – some fraction of that. This is a tiny economic interest. If the coalition is serious about rebalancing the British economy, it is preposterous to place a fragment of the City at the forefront of our national priorities." Q - source please. AFAIK the UK's trade deficit with the EU is pro rata smaller than that with other places so a reduction in trade with the EU will have a negative effect. And if the UK leaves the EU (this does look a it of a 1-way street for that) subject to GATT rules the EU will be able to erect tariff barriers and "measures equivalent" against the UK. |
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11 Dec 11 - 05:53 PM (#3272259) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Anyway, it's one in the eye for Ed Millipede (the wrong brother). His comment on Cameron going from handbagging to handwringing has gone rather awry. However, I imagine his writers will find a weasel phrase or two to enable him to avoid apologising. Don T. |
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11 Dec 11 - 06:14 PM (#3272271) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: Q (Frank Staplin) UK has not left the EU, only the Eurozone fiscal group, which could have been become very expensive for the well-to-do countries if contributions to cover the indigent countries continued high. The Germans may vote Merkel into a minority position, since many of them object to giving away their tax funds. |
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11 Dec 11 - 06:27 PM (#3272277) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Plus this point Richard, which you may have missed or ignored. Part of this deal would require that our government submit its budgets, not to the UK Parliament, but to Brussels for approval in the first instance. You, being a lawyer, should know that this would trigger an immediate automatic requirement for a referendum under the new law. If you are not a Eurosceptic this should worry you as it worries me. Not all Tory voters want to get out, and I believe that doing so would wreck our economy, but given all the tabloid furore over the "Brussels Gravy Train", there may well be a sufficient anti feeling for a referendum to produce an "out" vote. I don't believe we should ever have joined, but I also don't believe we can leave without paying dearly for it. If only DeGaulle had lived longer!! Don T. |
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11 Dec 11 - 06:32 PM (#3272278) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: McGrath of Harlow "Part of this deal would require that our government submit its budgets, not to the UK Parliament, but to Brussels for approval in the first instance." I'd be very surprised if this would have been true for countries outside the Eurozone. Could you produce your source for that assertion, Don. |
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11 Dec 11 - 06:46 PM (#3272284) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: Big Al Whittle no don't use colour - I've thought about it - I'm a bit grey at the temples, And I hate big white hairs coming out my eyebrows when I spot them - which isn't often enough. apparently once you start, you've got to keep doing it (applying the colour)sort of quite often. Perhaps I'll become a goth and go jet black! grow old ridiculously! My mother in law had thick brown hair right up until she died at eighty six. Coloured - but I used to think it looked pretty good. She would have looked older with grey hair. |
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11 Dec 11 - 07:04 PM (#3272289) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: Richard Bridge Surely, Don, the assertion that accepting the Merkel plan would trigger a referendum was denied by the Con-Dems. And why has Ed Milliband's comment "cone awry"? Q - may I remind you of my request for your sources on those trade statistics? |
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11 Dec 11 - 07:36 PM (#3272300) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: GUEST,Bluesman You have done well Alan to keep your own colour, I would be happy to have kept hair ! It is the ears with me, bloody hair plugs grow overnight. |
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11 Dec 11 - 07:47 PM (#3272307) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: Big Al Whittle yes I get ears and the nostril stuff - orrible! I had this idea of going onto the dragons den, with radical ideas for grooming mens pubic hair. A chain of salons called Mr Nobby's. I did this schtick about it at Fylde and everybody thought I was nuts. |
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11 Dec 11 - 08:06 PM (#3272311) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: GUEST,Bluesman Sounds a good idea Alan,you would need to give a lot of thought to your business plan, banks aren't what they used to be. These days they have you by the short and curlys. You wouldn't want it to become a cock up. There is a lot of scope there, a lot of guys would cum at least twice a week. Have you gave thought to unisex ? It is worth thinking about. I come from a family of pet lovers, being the youngest and the only boy, I always got the job of grooming pussy. Alan, There are a lot of badgers out there too. |
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11 Dec 11 - 08:50 PM (#3272330) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: michaelr Do you mind? Get your own thread to talk about male hair. "Cameron veto" is incorrect, anyway. He had no power to veto the deal, only to keep Britain out of it. |
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11 Dec 11 - 09:00 PM (#3272336) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: michaelr "Britain had shared the outlines of its thinking with some of its partners, officials said, but it hadn't circulated anything approaching a document sufficiently detailed to form the basis of discussion. For that reason, the demands were news to many of the people around the table. But it wasn't just the way Cameron went about it, it was the substance of the demands. He was effectively asking for a softening of regulation on Britain's financial sector at a time when many voters and politicians believe banks are largely to blame for the crisis Europe is suffering and want tighter regulation on the sector. "Politically speaking, when the banks are considered the enemy and the root of all the problems we have today, Cameron's arguments were the wrong arguments at the wrong time for the wrong people. Politically, he was dead from the start." From this analysis. |
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12 Dec 11 - 03:33 AM (#3272412) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: John MacKenzie ALL pensions, except the government statutory Old Age Pension, and Civil Service pensions, which are paid out of current tax take. Are invested by the pension funds, in the city. In government bonds, and stocks and shares. IF the activities of these investors, and bankers is curtailed, and their remuneration limited by statute, they will not have the incentive to try harder. Then the already reduced profits that they produce for private pensions, will fall even further. Even pensioners pay tax, and help fund the pensions paid from general taxation. So in effect, the more they earn, the more tax is paid, both by the investors, and the pensioners. In short, they are a necessary evil. |
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12 Dec 11 - 04:17 AM (#3272423) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: Arthur_itus Money is the root of all evil and it seems the FSA has firmly come out fighting. Quote from BBC News today. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16135247 |
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12 Dec 11 - 09:27 AM (#3272509) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: Arnie Why all this worry about a possible referendum on the UK leaving the EU? If the electorate vote to leave, then the Gov't, backed by the EU, will interpret this as the wrong decision. We will then have to hold another referendum, and possibly more after that until we get the 'right' decision and vote to stay in. It's known as the Irish method. |
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12 Dec 11 - 09:43 AM (#3272512) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: Don(Wyziwyg)T ""I'd be very surprised if this would have been true for countries outside the Eurozone. Could you produce your source for that assertion, Don."" BBC NEWS! I understood from the analysis of that news by at least three individual financial "experts" that the twenty six had agreed to oversight of there fiscal activities by Brussels, not just the Eurozone seventeen. If I am wrong, it is because I took three such statements to be likely, on the balance of probabilities, to be correct. In any case, the suggestion that allowing a foreign power to tax and monitor the City would not trigger a referendum would be very much open to challenge, and a judge might decide that it would indeed trigger the requirements of the new law. The government would then have to obey its own Act of Parliament. Don T. |
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12 Dec 11 - 10:18 AM (#3272528) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: Don(Wyziwyg)T ""Q - may I remind you of my request for your sources on those trade statistics?"" You may remind me, but I only made one comment on trade, which hardly warrants the description "statistics". The comment that 40% of our trade was with Europe came from statements on BBC news by spokesmen for the CBI, the Bank of England, and the ONS, all of whom seemed happy with it as a close approximation to the real figure. Don T. |
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12 Dec 11 - 10:35 AM (#3272537) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: Richard Bridge You mis-read me Don. My request was to Q. |
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12 Dec 11 - 10:43 AM (#3272542) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Indeed! My apologies. When somebody puts a "Q" before the start of a question, I tend to read it as an abbreviation of "Question", as in a "Q & A session". Don T |
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12 Dec 11 - 11:54 AM (#3272583) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge I `ad that Angela Merkl in my cab the other day. She`d been `aving a look for the nastiest Christmas card she could find for Berlusconi after all `is `orrible remarks. I said, "Morgen Angie. It`s taken 98 years but you finally won. Now that you got most of them voting for you to approve their budgets and deficits do you think they will all cough up for that loan you propose to give to the International Monetary Fund from which you propose to bail them all out? Seems a bit of a round-a-bout to me." She said, "Mein Gott!! I bloomin` `ope so other wise I`m gesunken with my electorate!!" Whaddam I Like?? |
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12 Dec 11 - 03:58 PM (#3272719) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: Q (Frank Staplin) UK trade figures are widely published and on the net. A quick google turns them up. Why bother to link when it is just as quick to put the question in google? For a start, see http://www.economywatch.com/world_economy/united-kingdom/export-import.html The export diagram is a little hard to read, but the USA receives 33.5 billion pounds in exports, Germany 24.8 billion, etc. Interesting is that UK's largest export is medicaments, followed by petrol, and the biggest import category is manufactured goods. |
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12 Dec 11 - 04:23 PM (#3272736) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: Arthur_itus We need to get Manufacturing back as our top priority. Also we need incentives to Export. |
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12 Dec 11 - 05:14 PM (#3272777) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: Richard Bridge You, Q, made the point. Up to you to support it. |
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12 Dec 11 - 07:48 PM (#3272850) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: Big Al Whittle Just watched Paxman sticking it to Paddy Ashdown. What a diplomat Ashdown is. Paxman was leaning relentlessly on him to call David Cameron a useless c--t. And yet somehow he evaded it. Rapier wit. Seems that DC introduced his proposals at 2.30 in the morning when everyone wanted to go home. So they all told him to get stuffed. The Polish guy was saying - why on earth didn't he mention all this at 2.30 in the afternoon. Oh well! i suppose they'll all have a few more days out on expenses to sort out this misunderstanding. |
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13 Dec 11 - 06:30 AM (#3273014) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: MikeL2 Hi DC was in a difficult position in between a rock and a hard place. So it was obvious to most people that some thought and approach was required to negotiate our position. Cameron and the Public School part of his Government don't do negotiation. They just shout and expect people to jump to their requests tugging forelock as they do so. fag packets and loud-hailers don't work in the situation we are in. Cheers Mike |
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13 Dec 11 - 07:45 AM (#3273046) Subject: RE: BS: Europe forges fiscal union/Cameron Veto From: GUEST,Bluesman If David would have agreed to the terms Europe set out, the usual mob here would have said he lacked backbone and was a poodle to Germany. What would Labour have done ? It was a hard call,I feel he made the right one. Now get us to hell out of Europe. |