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07 Oct 99 - 11:48 PM (#121944) Subject: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: Mark Cohen I think we need a new name for a song that uses the tune and format (and even some of the words) of another song, but isn't making fun of that song or its theme. The term "parody" implies an intent to mock, even good naturedly, or at least to twist the theme or style of the original in a humorous way. For example, "I Hype the Songs" (whose author I wish I knew), Bob Blue's "Their Way", "Charlie on the MTA", or "Deck the Halls with Boston Charlie." (Hmmm, I wonder if it's the same Charlie?) But I once wrote a song called FOR JUST ONE DIME that's based on Stan Rogers' "Northwest Passage". It's a funny song, most people call it a parody, and it has that tag in the Digitrad. But it's not about what Stan's song is about, it's about a little guy who's mad at big corporations ripping off the public. I love Stan's song and wasn't trying to poke fun at it in any way. Can we come up with a new name for that kind of "parody"? Is it worth making the distinction? Any thoughts, all you folkie philosophers out there? Aloha, Mark Cohen |
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08 Oct 99 - 12:08 AM (#121949) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: SeanM Well, a "burlesque" covers a "tribute" style, done more as an homage to the style in a humorous vein... M |
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08 Oct 99 - 01:05 AM (#121963) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: katlaughing A Folkody? Since it is part of the "folk process"?*G* |
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08 Oct 99 - 10:25 AM (#122062) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: Barbara You know, Mark, I'd give a lot more than one thin dime to be able to call Tom Savage anywhere.... Bev and Jerry once had a conversation with me about this question. I'm afraid it was mostly about what kind of folk processor you would use to make a good jam.... Perhaps there's a song in it... Blessings, Barbara |
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08 Oct 99 - 10:36 AM (#122066) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: Songster Bob Well, there is "satire," which has acquired the meaning of a caricature or burlesque aimed at something other than the original work. That is, your song, which takes aim at "big corporations ripping off the public," is a satire, not a parody. In fact, there is a distinction between these two words in copyright law, in that parodies are "allowed," but a satire using copyrighted material (tune or lyrics) is not "allowed." I put the quote marks around "allowed" because of all the wiggle room that court decisions and general practice have given this. A recent court case involving "Pretty Woman" is an example -- that "song" (to give the benefit of the doubt to the defendant's "work") was a parody, making fun of the original song (think Homer and Jethro, but more tasteless). "Charlie on the MTA" is a satire, BTW, since it was a political song using an old popular song (19th C) as its starting point. So I'd just use "satire" for songs which fit the definition you give. And it's "Deck Us All with Boston Charlie," not "Deck the Halls ..." Bob Clayton |
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09 Oct 99 - 12:22 AM (#122253) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: Mark Cohen Thanks, Bob, that does get at what I was saying. That's an interesting legal distinction. Never knew I was an outlaw ... I mean, except for ripping tags off pillows. (Yeah, I know, they added "except by the consumer" to those tags. No fun.) And I apologize to Walt Kelly, wherever he may be, for inadvertently mangling his masterpiece. (I didn't misspell his name, too, did I?) |
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09 Oct 99 - 04:30 PM (#122328) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: bseed(charleskratz) Among Walt Kelly's other masterpieces--songs as the turtle Churchy La Femme sang them--were "Awning Rodeo Mandolin," "Good King Sauerkraut, look out! On your feet's uneven," and "May Booney Lice Soda Devotion, May Booney Lifesaver D. C., McBoniface Rover Commotion, Oh, Brickbat Mahoney Fur Me"... --seed |
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17 Sep 03 - 03:29 AM (#1020521) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: The Fooles Troupe When I wrote The Grey Flannel Line, It ended up as something that I found really needed a new name - I like "Folkody" Want to track down Walt Kelley now... is he anything to do with the cartoon Pogo? Robin |
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17 Sep 03 - 04:23 AM (#1020539) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: Steve Parkes Well, there's "pastiche" for a song (or other work) "in the style of" but not sending-up (not the same as "fake!"), or "homage", a pastiche where imitaition is the sincerest form of flattery. Neither of these apply to Mark's case, but they may come in handy elsewhere. "Lampoon", "pasquinade", "spoof" all mean much the same as "parody"; "travesty" is a bit strong, unless you're being nasty. Any other word-nerds out there? Steve |
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17 Sep 03 - 04:43 AM (#1020550) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: Wolfgang Since this is discussed: I always wondered how would you call a song that takes a funny song (written by the author as a funny song) and uses tune, structure, several words, but changes a bit and makes a dead serious song out of it? Wolfgang |
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17 Sep 03 - 05:15 AM (#1020569) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: GUEST,KB Call it a variation? |
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17 Sep 03 - 05:30 AM (#1020576) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: McGrath of Harlow I always get irritated when people refer to a new song based on an old song as a parody, when as in this case it clearly isn't. I'd probably call it that - "a new song based on an old song". I'd rarely be in so much off a hurry I'd need to use just one word for that. (And if it was a new word and you had to explain what it meant, you'd lose the time you saved anyway.) |
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17 Sep 03 - 06:14 AM (#1020589) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: Steve Parkes Woody Allen used to say he planned to buy the rights to My Fair Lady, then take out the musical numbers and present it as a straight play. How about "evolute" (or is that a kind of spiral?) or "allomorph" ("same form")? Steve (It still wouldn't be Pygmalion!) |
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17 Sep 03 - 06:33 AM (#1020597) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: Steve Parkes "Isophone" = "same sound", i.e. same tune. "Heterologic isophone" (or "isophonic heterolog[ue]") = "different words, same tune" ... but that's two words! |
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17 Sep 03 - 09:04 AM (#1020687) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: McGrath of Harlow Most traditional folksongs are new songs based on old songs. |
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17 Sep 03 - 10:11 AM (#1020731) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: Steve Parkes ... as were the old songs! |
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17 Sep 03 - 10:57 AM (#1020764) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: Dita I remember Ewan McVicar and Leon Rosselson having words on this subject. Ewan had submitted some songs, for inclusion in a political song mag that Leon was in-part editing. Leon refused to publish any song that did not have it's own unique, written tune, claiming that anything else was mearly a parody. He included in this some of my anti Thatcher songs written to traditional tunes, and some of Ewan's songs, including the CND protest songs. As I recall Ewan go round this by writing an article on parodies. John. |
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17 Sep 03 - 11:38 AM (#1020794) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: Charley Noble Damn! My definitive comment never got posted and it was so brilliant... Charley Noble |
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17 Sep 03 - 03:09 PM (#1020939) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: McGrath of Harlow Where does this obsession for "orginality" come from? You get it in songs, in literature, even in architecture. Yes, there are circumstances where a break with the past is called for, and for some reason it's possible to have new things which at least feel like they are totally new (they very rarely are in fact). But most of the time it's a matter of building on the foundations of what people have done before, and very often that means largely aspiring to replicate what people have done before. And people involved in folk music should always be aware of that. |
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17 Sep 03 - 03:13 PM (#1020944) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: The Fooles Troupe Even Einstein said he had only seen a little way by standing on the shoulders of giants... Robin |
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17 Sep 03 - 04:43 PM (#1021011) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: Charley Noble A lot of what I said in my evaporated post seemed self-evident but Mark's original question does hit home. Mark's song "Bowling" is clearly a comical parody in form and tune of the traditional sea shanty "Roll the Woodpile Down" but what would we call that song if the bowling leagues used it at their parties? If we're simply using the form and tune of an existing song for an entirely new song, we are "adopting" its form and tune, or "stealing it" if we're doing so without the permission of the composer. If we're altering the form or tune of an existing song, we're "adapting" its form or tune into a new song, or maybe into another version of the same song. It's really not a parody unless it is a comment on the original song. Now I'm less sure what to call the creation when the new song is a serious version of a comic song, unless it's a malody! Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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17 Sep 03 - 11:25 PM (#1021180) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: LadyJean Find a traditional tune, and you're likely to find four or five sets of traditional lyrics for it. Then, or course, there's John Gay's "The Beggar's Opera", where ALL the original songs are set to traditional tunes. Gay did this so audiences could sing along. "Rosin the Beau" is also "Men of the West" and "Lincoln and Liberty". "Streets of Laredo" is also "The Bard of Armagh". Using a pre-existing tune is a time honored folk tradition. |
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18 Sep 03 - 03:59 AM (#1021234) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: Steve Parkes Robin, it was Isaac Newton: "if I have seen further than the rest, it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants [and not because of any assistance from a runt like that evil dwarf Dr Hook]". Poor old Hook, hes' just beginning to be appreciates, thanks to the hatchet job IN did back then. Okay, you can all get back to the subject again now! Steve |
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18 Sep 03 - 04:49 AM (#1021251) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: McGrath of Harlow It's really not a parody unless it is a comment on the original song. Exactly so. In some cases a knocking comment, but more typically a sort of tribute. |
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18 Sep 03 - 05:28 AM (#1021267) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: The Fooles Troupe A Malody... Seems like the sort of song where everything goes wrong --- like "Why Paddy's Not At Work Today" or "The Excuse Song" or "Paddy & the Bricks" , to name its many titles.... :-) Robin |
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18 Sep 03 - 08:46 AM (#1021354) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: Charley Noble Careful, Robin, the term "malody" may catch on. You will share responsibility if you repeat this name. Strictly speaking "Why Paddy's Not at Work Today" is a "disfunctional" work song. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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18 Sep 03 - 11:58 AM (#1021490) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: Steve Parkes "Why parody's not at work today" ... |
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19 Sep 03 - 01:01 AM (#1021889) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: Bob Bolton As I scrolled through this thread (which I seem to have missed in its earlier appearance) I eventually found that McGrath of Harlow had said what I would have said: "Most traditional folksongs are new songs based on old songs." (My emphasis) Indeed, what I would have answered to Mark's original assertion that "... we need a new name for a song that uses the tune and format (and even some of the words) of another song, but isn't making fun of that song or its theme." is: A folk song. I often end up using the word "parody" in real, or verbal, 'quotes' in discussing the folk process ... but I'm trapped by the unfortunate overtones of the narrow modern use of "parody". Regards, Bob Bolton |
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19 Sep 03 - 07:12 PM (#1022074) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: The Fooles Troupe "Say not His name three times or He will appear among us" Malody, Malody, Malody! AGGGHHH!! Robin |
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22 Sep 03 - 09:45 PM (#1023300) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: Burke Contrafactum (from medieval Lat. contrafacere: 'to imitate', 'counterfeit', 'forge'). In vocal music, the substitution of one text for another without substantial change to the music. (Grove Music) |
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23 Sep 03 - 11:59 AM (#1023548) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: GUEST |
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23 Sep 03 - 09:07 PM (#1024013) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: The Fooles Troupe Thanks Burke, Hadn't heard that one. Whats a "trope" then? Robin |
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23 Sep 03 - 09:19 PM (#1024017) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: McGrath of Harlow Trope: 1) Interpolations in plainsong words resulting in musical melisma on one note or a fragment of new melody. Practice flourished from 9th to 15th century, was abused, and finally banned by Tridentine reform. Survived only as the sequence (trope set to final melisma of Alleluia). 2) Term used by Hauer to describe 44 pairs of unordered hexachords which are basis of his version of 12-note technique. (Concise Oxford Dictionary of Music.) I trust that makes it crystal clear. |
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23 Sep 03 - 10:34 PM (#1024054) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: The Fooles Troupe Ah, thanks, McGrath so the idea widespread in certain parts of the SCA that "SCA filk songs" were "tropes" is just in line with the usual level of scholarship I observed there? Looks like "Contrafactum" is what they should have been saying then. :-) Robin |
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24 Sep 03 - 08:26 PM (#1024658) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: Bob Bolton G'day Robin, In more general use, trope is defined by my Concise Oxford as: "A figurative (e.g. metaphorical or ironical) use of a word." ... so your SCA types could be using that definition loosely applied to their treatment of the whole song. I'm sure most of them would be even less aware of the specific musical application to plainsong than most 'catters! Regards, Bob |
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03 Oct 03 - 09:14 AM (#1028752) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: Snuffy Along the lines of 'Mondergrrens', why not call them 'Baystons' (= based on) |
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03 Oct 03 - 10:09 AM (#1028818) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: The Fooles Troupe 'Baystons'- an interesting idea... Robin |
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04 Oct 03 - 08:56 AM (#1029514) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: Bernard Food for thought... At what point does it simply become plagiarism? The classic case would be George Harrison's 'My Sweet Lord', proved in court to be based upon the Chiffons' 'He's So Fine'... some lawyers made a fortune out of that... it's highly unlikely that George deliberately set out to 'parody' the song - had he used a 12 bar blues chord sequence, Chuck Berry (for example!) wouldn't have been able to sue him!! Does admitting where you nicked the idea from really make it any different? |
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05 Oct 03 - 02:04 AM (#1029867) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: rea well, I just call them filks. I mean, I know that's a term for sci-fi music, but we among my friends, we talk about filking a song... how else are you going to describe my friend's do-wop greensleeves? but I do like trope as well. hm. -rea |
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06 Oct 03 - 01:00 AM (#1030267) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: The Fooles Troupe ... and I thought "filking" was something that only the SCA could do... :-) Robin |
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06 Oct 03 - 04:28 AM (#1030313) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: Steve Parkes "Filk" (northern England) = "filch" (southern England). |
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14 Jun 21 - 09:27 PM (#4110209) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: John C. Bunnell Yet another thread I happened across while prowling in the "parody" cluster... First, as to "filk" - no, that's a much broader category/niche than just SCA music. The term was coined, so the story goes, decades ago by way of a misprint in a science fiction convention program book, and now "filk" is a general term for the music of the broader SF/F genre fandom community, encompassing the whole range of media from movies to TV to film. Originally most filk was folk-ish in origin, but nowadays there are significant influences from rock and even classical music (I have an album by a Pacific NW performer who is mostly not even a vocalist, but a cellist and mistress of other stringed instruments.) There is a long and venerable tradition of parody within the filk world; two of the premier practitioners thereof are Tom Smith and Bob Kanefsky - Bob especially is known for extremely intricate and specific parody lyrics. Now I've written a considerable number of song lyrics under the filk umbrella, but very few of them are purely or directly parodies. And it happened some years ago that Bob Kanefsky and I found ourselves co-judging the onsite songwriting contest at a local sci-fi convention, wherein Bob and I got to talking about what he does and what I do. And the coinage I came up with is that Bob is a parodist, but I'm what I now describe as a "hymnalist" - that is, I almost always write my lyrics with an existing tune in mind (and I borrow from a great variety of sources, from filk to folk to show tunes to actual hymns), but my lyrics frequently have little or no connection to those associated with my source tune. For instance, one early lyric was written to fit a setting of Kipling's poem "A Smuggler's Song" by Michael Longcor, but the words retell the legend of a well-known native petroglyph here in the Pacific Northwest. I draw the "hymnalist" coinage from the wide use of just this sort of adaptation in Western Christian musical practice - as I noted in a different context/thread elsewhere this past morning, it's extremely common either for Christian hymns either to be sung to more than one tune, or for more than one popular hymn to be sung to a single tune. (Note too that "the Lone Ranger theme" and "the 1812 Overture" refer to the same piece of music, and that the Christmas song "What Child Is This?" is not just also "Greensleeves", but overlaps the theme from the "Lassie" TV series.) As long as authorship of both words and music is properly credited in any published or commercial context in connection with a given song, I see no difficulty with any of this. |
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15 Jun 21 - 08:20 AM (#4110239) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: Daniel Kelly Great to see a fellow Filker on Mudcat John. I have spent more than a few hours of the past 18 months on Zoom listening to Bob Kanefsky sing some of his brilliant creations to all hours of the night and morning. As for the current lexicographical discussion, just call them parodies. Even if they aren't specifically mocking the original. By definition, you are using something in a way it wasn't intended, so in at least someone's mind that will be funny. |
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15 Jun 21 - 09:38 AM (#4110245) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: Mrrzy Ok, an example: I rewrote PP&M's The Magi to keep all the imagery, and as many of the words as possible, but turn it into a solstice, natural-world, human-intellect paean (sp?] instead of a religious song. I called it The Magnon. I call it rewriting. The Magnon is a secular version of The Magi, to me. So in that case, Version works. Now if I make a different song entirely but just use the tune, à la Master McGrath / Sweet Betsy From Pike, it is just another song To The Tune Of. Not a version of. The Master McGrath that has an alternate tune is a version of Master McGrath. So same words different tune and same tune with [slightly but not completely] different words are both Versions. Do we need distinct terms for those? I like the idea. So yeah, we need a term for To The Tune Of. |
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15 Jun 21 - 11:32 AM (#4110260) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: Nigel Parsons Oh, is this now a gathering for Filkers? Adsum magister ;) Looking forward to Worldcon in DC this December, with late night Filk circles. (lockdown permitting) |
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15 Jun 21 - 03:10 PM (#4110282) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: GUEST,CupOfTea, no cookies How about "ADAPTATION" - covers changes in lyrics, melody, meter, while acknowledging that it is based on something previously existing, while not implying any satire, spoof or specific parody. Joanne in Cleveland |
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15 Jun 21 - 04:54 PM (#4110292) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: Mo the caller Well i always thought the term parody implied mockery until I went to a concert where a Parody mass was performed. Not sure if that term was used in the 16th century for that sort of composition or is a modern description. No mockery, just the use of a secular song (e.g. l'homme arme). |
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15 Jun 21 - 05:31 PM (#4110296) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: Joe_F Mo: According to the AHD, that is a specialized musical meaning of the word: "The practice of reworking an already established composition, especially the incorporation into the Mass of material borrowed from other works, such as motets or madrigals." Amazingly, the OED misses that. |
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16 Jun 21 - 07:15 AM (#4110346) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: Daniel Kelly Nigel, Maybe time to start a thread 'Mudcat Filkers show yourselves'. This will be like that meme about Canadians and Barrett's Privateers. "We pulled into the Argo port in need of R & R"... |
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16 Jun 21 - 08:16 AM (#4110351) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: Nigel Parsons Daniel "We pulled into the Argo port in need of R & R"... Try not to slip into jargon which would not be widely recognised. Remember . . . "We're banned from 'argot' " |
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16 Jun 21 - 09:52 AM (#4110362) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: GUEST,# Mark (the OP) said he wanted the author for "I Hype the Songs." Nenah Sylver wrote it. https://www.nenahsylver.com/music---sound.html |
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16 Jun 21 - 11:04 AM (#4110371) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: Mrrzy I like Adaptation. I adapted the Magi, works for me. |
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16 Jun 21 - 03:34 PM (#4110403) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: Nigel Parsons Mrrzy: The "wise men" got delayed on their way to Bethlehem, but after a good night's sleep, God set them right: "Wake up Magi, I think I've got something to say to you . . ." |
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17 Jun 21 - 03:16 PM (#4110496) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: Mrrzy Oh, magi, you couldn't have tried? |
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17 Jun 21 - 03:39 PM (#4110500) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: GUEST Extrapolation? |
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18 Jun 21 - 07:19 PM (#4110614) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: Tattie Bogle I see from another thread that has recently re-surfaced that I used the term “partial parody” to describe one of my own songs, which uses the tune and just some of the words of an existing song, but has some verses which don’t follow the original lyrics at all. But, yes, adaptation sounds fine. |
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19 Jun 21 - 01:05 PM (#4110688) Subject: RE: Non-parody parodies -- new name? From: Jack Campin The "parody Mass" usage Mo highlighted was what first came to mind when I opened this thread. No need for a new word. |