Sammy Bar.. Irish version.

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Sammy Bar.. Irish version.

24 Feb 12 - 07:04 PM (#3312974)
Subject: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Georgiansilver

Found this version of Sammys Bar on Youtube tonight...was quite impressed. also 'Flip the Whale's version is good...... Sammys Bar. what do you think?

24 Feb 12 - 07:10 PM (#3312977)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: michaelr

Forcibly Oirishised, I'd say... I much prefer Flippin' the Whale. Great little movie, too.

25 Feb 12 - 03:53 AM (#3313101)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Dave Hanson

Words butchered.

Dave H

25 Feb 12 - 04:31 AM (#3313115)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman

Quite, good strong singer, but even with his powerful voice the vocals are drowned out b y the instruments on occassions.
Rosemary Twney should be notified, I bet Cyril never received royalties, furthermore putting an irish location in the song, tends to alter some of the meaning of the song,m and quite frankly is just a piece of fake leprechaun irish twaddle.
if they had got the words right and not indulged in irish fakery and mixed the instrumentals back, it would be a good version, the singer is a good singer and the they are good players

25 Feb 12 - 05:05 AM (#3313127)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Leadfingers

Dick said it all ! Acceptable , IF Rosemary is getting Royalties !

25 Feb 12 - 05:35 AM (#3313131)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Reinhard

Tara's CD "Rigs of the Time" with Sammy's Bar on it was published nearly 20 years ago in 1994 according to amazon.com. It is very likely that Rosemary knows of this recording and is getting royalties.

25 Feb 12 - 05:46 AM (#3313134)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Paul Burke

That whistle's god-awful. On how many Irish strands will you see a dghajsa?

Nearly as good as Dorty oul' Toyn and the Shores of Erin.

25 Feb 12 - 07:43 AM (#3313167)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Dave Hanson

The Corries did it with ' The Grey Funnel Line ' they called it, ' The Grand Bonna Line ' god knows why.

Dave H

25 Feb 12 - 09:48 AM (#3313199)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: eddie1

Way back when, I was given a cassette of Lonnie Donegan produced by an obscure Irish label and found this Sammy's Bar by Donegan

I let Cyril hear it on his next visit to Scotland and, although he loved the arrangement, he did ask Rosemary to follow up the question of royalties. Don't know if she struck lucky.

Eddie

25 Feb 12 - 10:36 AM (#3313208)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Arkie

Anyone heard "Sammy's Bar Revisited", sung by Cyril, himself, on the album "Guide Cats for the Blind"?

25 Feb 12 - 11:00 AM (#3313218)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: GUEST,Gulliver

For years I thought it went: "Haul away the dying soul" (and sang that!)

25 Feb 12 - 02:47 PM (#3313336)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Gurney

Gulliver, some friends of mine thought that, in 'The Grey Funnel Line,' it was strange that Cyril referred to the Geordie coalmine Walker Shore, but recorded that in the interests of probity.

You really have to research some of his songs. He used naval parlance so extensively.
I asked him. It is walk-ashore, the gang-plank.

There was even an assertion that the pit was walk-ashore on an earlier thread, for the same reason, as it was a drift-mine.

26 Feb 12 - 09:44 AM (#3313604)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: EBarnacle

As the song is solidly tied to Malta's place names and equipment, it is not a zipper song. Changing the locale does not do it.

Howsomeever, there is a case of a multimillion dollar song, The Lion Sleeps Tonight, in which the "adapter" was able to uphold copyright over the real author of the song.

26 Feb 12 - 09:53 AM (#3313608)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Mr Happy

So many 'versions' of lots music & songs.

They make an 'arrangement', change a word here & there, re-name then claim authorship = theft, plagiarism, spoiling etc

13 Jan 17 - 01:47 AM (#3832231)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: GUEST,Guest Luke McLean

I see the tradition of cultural plagiarism is still thriving in Irish Republican ranks. First we have, "She is the belle of Dublin City"(should be Belfast). Then, Jimmy Babyface McLarnon was a Catholic(should be Methodist from Co. Down). Next. Roddy McCorley was a Catholic.(should be Presbyterian from Dunneane). After that, the song "Carricfergus" was about a town in Munster(Sorry,theres only one Carrickfergus in the whole of Ireland and thats in Co. Antrim). Now, we have reached the height of bad taste with the portrayal of the wonderful sea shanty, "Sammy's Bar" as some sort of Gaelic, Keltic, Irish classic. How pathetic! Everyone in folk music knows that this great song was written by the late Cyril Tawney, a Cornish seaman, in recent times! You Reps are really getting us non Rep Irishmen a bad name. Please quit. Whats next? "The Mingulay Boat Song" is really an old Irish tune that the Shannon fishermen used to sing while rowing around in their coracles!

13 Jan 17 - 03:18 AM (#3832238)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan

Re "Mingulay": here in the West of Ireland, I know of both an English language version called "Rolling Home to Oranmore " and an Iridh language love song "An Cailïn Álainn" using the air.

Regards

13 Jan 17 - 03:52 AM (#3832242)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman

CYRIL was from hampshire, however you make good points ,next we will havw willie free and easy, with all its connotations and how he picked up a dose of clap

13 Jan 17 - 04:34 AM (#3832246)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Thompson

Carrickfergus was a town in Munster??????? What? When? Where? How?

Why all the spite in this thread? Have people got really terrible post-Christmas hangovers still in mid-January?

13 Jan 17 - 06:38 AM (#3832287)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Jack Campin

"She is the belle of Dublin City"(should be Belfast)

No "should" about it. Virtually the same song has been found associated with just about every city in the British Isles. There's an Edinburgh version in Ritchie's collections from the 1950s. I doubt if anybody has the faintest idea where it started out, though we can probably rule out Cork and Peterborough because they don't fit metrically.

13 Jan 17 - 11:34 AM (#3832349)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Ernest

What guest Luke McLean calls "cultural plagiarism" is what we usually call the folk process here.

I looked up the CD (rather a CD that combines 2 Tara vynil albums which is actually named "Sammy`s Bar") and Cyril Tawney is named as the author of the song. The places mentioned in the lyrics are "Quilltar" and "Quadar Quivar bay". The (German?) company might have spelled it wrong as there is another typo, but these names don`t sound irish to me. What exactly do you refer to, GSS?

On another occasion Marty Byrne told me about calling someone to ask permission to do one of his songs, so I assume that royalties were payed.

13 Jan 17 - 01:24 PM (#3832370)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman

INETUFFEYA BAY[ phonetic spelling for ghajn tuffheja bay, that is the words in Cyril Tawney songbook. Cyril was a good friend of mine Ernest, what exactly are you referring to Ernest?since i mentioned not sammys bar, but willie[sic] free and easy

13 Jan 17 - 02:19 PM (#3832383)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Jack Campin

The cover says "Tara - Irish Music". This song isn't.

The title of the CD is "Rigs of the Time" - taken from an English song.

The uploader's caption says "wonderful Irish song".

The YouTube "genre" label says "Irish Folk Music".

If that's the "folk process", "folk process" is a new phrase for "thieving".

13 Jan 17 - 03:58 PM (#3832407)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Thompson

Surely, though, Jack Campin, you're assuming a great mass of light-fingered Irish songsters, rather than a single person making a mistake?

13 Jan 17 - 04:02 PM (#3832408)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Thompson

Incidentally, I'm reminded of my son, back on holidays from the Orient, showing me the Thai cowboy movie Tears of the Black Tiger (much recommended by the way), and remarking on the beautiful Thai folk song that was its main theme. "Surely you mean beautiful Irish folk song?" I objected, and he was most indignant.

The song was The Last Rose of Summer in a Thai incarnation.

Songs pass from country to country and from culture to culture, as do stories, turns of phrase, words and concepts. It's not thievery. They can't help doing it, it's their nature.

13 Jan 17 - 05:36 PM (#3832428)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Jack Campin

In this case there was nothing unconsciously folkloric about it. Both Tawney's and Carthy's songs were written at a time when people registered information about authorship in easily accessible public resources. "Tara" will have learned them off commercial recordings. And there is no excuse whatever for a YouTube uploader, since using YouTube is using Google.

The group and their hangers-on like the uploader were using deliberate misrepresentation, concealing the origins of the songs. Probably because they had a racist anti-English ideology to promote.

It's quite likely that the Thai film score composer knew perfectly well where "The Last Rose of Summer" came from, too.

13 Jan 17 - 07:48 PM (#3832443)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: michaelr

"Probably because they had a racist anti-English ideology to promote."

Bit of a stretch there, I'd say. What race would one be to be anti-English?

14 Jan 17 - 02:41 AM (#3832469)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Dave Hanson

In the case of ' The Rigs of the Times ' you will find that Martin Carthy designates it ' traditional, arranged Carthy '

Dave H

14 Jan 17 - 05:30 AM (#3832489)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: GUEST

its a sad fact that many 'races' are anti- English for good historical reasons and the continuing arrogance of many English people as demonstrated here

14 Jan 17 - 05:55 AM (#3832498)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Dave Hanson

that may be so, but you are the only one hiding your name.

Dave H

14 Jan 17 - 08:01 AM (#3832517)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman

Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: michaelr - PM
Date: 13 Jan 17 - 07:48 PM

"Probably because they had a racist anti-English ideology to promote."

Bit of a stretch there, I'd say. What race would one be to be anti-English?
French, THEY REFER TO THE ENGLISH AS ROSBIF

14 Jan 17 - 09:17 AM (#3832526)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Dave Hanson

Yeah but that's only cos the can't pronounce ' roast beef ' properly.

Dave H

14 Jan 17 - 09:39 AM (#3832529)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Leadfingers

Deliberatly changing the composers words or music is NOT what I think of as 'the folk process' . If a song is set in a particular location , to change the location is not IMHO right .

14 Jan 17 - 09:49 AM (#3832530)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: GUEST

My identity has nothing to do with it. I am English but can recognize the way that my nation has antagonized the people of many small (and large) nations worldwide for centuries.
Many of the world's political problems have their roots in the actions of the English upper class over all that time.
Two of these are being discussed at this very moment! Northern Ireland and Cyprus are only two problems caused by English actions over the years- if the Irish pinch a few songs, it's minor by comparison- you don't need my name, the facts speak for themselves- over and out

14 Jan 17 - 12:41 PM (#3832571)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: michaelr

GSS - the French are of the white "race" as well, if one chooses to use that outdated concept. And the band Tara don't sound French at all.

My point is that Jack Campin's statement about the band's supposed "racist anti-English ideology" is ludicrous nonsense.

14 Jan 17 - 01:26 PM (#3832581)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Thompson

I'd imagine the "belle of Belfast city" migrating to Dublin was because the line was used in a skipping rhyme all over the country, though, and was presumably repurposed for locality everywhere.

14 Jan 17 - 05:12 PM (#3832631)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: JHW

For years I thought it went: "Haul away the dying soul"

It's 'Haul away the Dyso'.
Last thing before going ashore the sailors would have a quick run round the ship with the vacuum.

15 Jan 17 - 04:12 AM (#3832688)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: GUEST,Erich

To Reinhard & Ernest: The original LP (Eulenspiegel EULP 1006)is from the mid to late 70s (not dated, but there was a remake in 1979). According to the cover-text Sammys Bar was written by SYNIL Tawney. BTW on this LP, subtitled "Irish Music" you can also find the song "The Chemical Workers" which was written by Ron Angel from The Teesside Fettlers.

15 Jan 17 - 05:35 AM (#3832701)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Leadfingers

If the record dates from the seventies , that waas the heightof 'The Troubles' when Irish Nationalism was quite rampant , with a fair degree of Anti English feeling.Didn't seem to stop them claiming a LOT of English Folk music as their own !

15 Jan 17 - 05:48 AM (#3832704)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Jack Campin

I'd imagine the "belle of Belfast city" migrating to Dublin was because the line was used in a skipping rhyme all over the country,

All over more than one country, and it could have come from any of them. I think the popular association with Belfast comes from some Irish revival band of the 60s (the Clancys?) who adopted that location for the version in their repertoire - it doesn't go back very far as a "standard". The Gorgie/Dalry kids around 1950 that Ritchie recorded had never heard of it that way.

Probably because they had a racist anti-English ideology to promote.
Bit of a stretch there, I'd say. What race would one be to be anti-English?

Canadian? German? English but with an Irish surname? Racism is about who you hate, not who you are.

You don't have to spend long around the diapora-Irish music scene to find the sort of attitude that wants to deny the English the ability to create anything at all. Which is why I have nothing to do with it any more, despite the fact that I love Irish music and have stronger family ties to it than most. The bigotry involved in it (as displayed by some posters in this thread) makes me sick.

15 Jan 17 - 08:10 AM (#3832727)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Snuffy

In the early 1950s the girls where I lived (Stockport (was Cheshire, now Greater Manchester))used to sing "she is the girl of the golden city"

15 Jan 17 - 08:43 AM (#3832734)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Ernest

GSS: I was referring to your posting of Febr 25th, 2012, 4:31 AM. Apparently I overlooked that you were writing about another song in your mail of Jan.13th, 2017.

15 Jan 17 - 09:00 AM (#3832735)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Ernest

Erich: Thanks for the additional information, I knew that it it was published as an LP before but didn`t know the exact date. On the CD Ron Angel is given as the author of "Chemical Workers" as well as C. Tawney for "Sammy`s Bar". I guess the typo of his name was caused by the woman responsible for the lettering whose native language probably wasn`t english.

15 Jan 17 - 05:37 PM (#3832849)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: breezy

Good to see we make a stand for Cyril, he had hollow legs didnt ya know.
Is Rosemary still around ? She had a video copy of his last appearance in St Albans around 18 months before he moved on.
His encore that evening was over 45 minutes long , ending at midnight then socialising in the bar till around 3;00 a.m.

15 Jan 17 - 05:59 PM (#3832853)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman

Rosemary has died.

16 Jan 17 - 12:05 AM (#3832890)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version/Schweik & Ryan
From: GUEST,Guest Luke McLean

SCHWEIK > I am fully aware that Tawney was born in Hampshire. However, if you bother researching him you will see that he always describes his roots as being in Cornwall and Devon.

RYAN > Very nice to hear from you again Martin. Great to know that you are still alive and kicking(I hope) after all these years! I was walking around Carrickfergus the other day and I was thinking of you and the old Mudcat thread we had about Carrick. As I looked out across the lough to Ballygrot or as the locals call it, "Ballygrat". I was wondering if I could still find a boatman to row me over! Sorry, but couldnt help having a dig at one of my old chestnuts about plagiarism in folk music and other things, especially in Ireland. I understand all that stuff about music travelling and being modified blah, blah, etc. etc. but hey this really is taking the piss! First, the Rigs of Time, not only record an awful version of the song, but describe it as an Irish song. Then, Al O'Donnel, one of my favourite singers, starts trying to introduce Irish(I presume) place names instead of "Piata". Next, Johnny McAvoy refers to it as a favourite old Irish ballad on his double CD about traditional Irish songs. All very undignified and also very unfair to Cyril Tawney who IMHO has managed to write one of the best contemporary folk songs of all time! Here on the island of Ireland(ROI & NI) we have produced some of the finest folk music of all time. Surely we should not be reduced to trying to steal other people's songs!

Lovely to hear from you again Martin!

16 Jan 17 - 04:30 AM (#3832911)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan

GUESTLuke

Still alive and kicking alright...

Best wishes

16 Jan 17 - 06:52 AM (#3832937)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Georgiansilver

JHW . The Maltese spelling is Dghajsa and is pronounced Dei-sa. During the Second world war, the sailors and squaddies from Britain and US, in Malta, corrupted it to become Dhaiso... which is pronounced Dyso. Best wishes, Mike

16 Jan 17 - 08:55 AM (#3832943)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan

Dyson, Dyson... ;>)>

Regards

16 Jan 17 - 10:05 AM (#3832949)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman

I dont need to research Cyril ,he was personal friend of mine,based on personal conversation he told me his roots were hampshire and devon. goSport where he was born,his family were all in the royal navy, gosport and also plymouth devonport which is not in cornwall but devon. get your facts right and rember there are some of us still alive who were good friends with Cyril, we do not need to be told to research anything, because we knew him, cop on.
Ialso knew cyrils brother archie[ a lovely kind man], who often when singning his brothers songs used to introduce them by saying he was the only man who ever slept in the same bed as cyril

16 Jan 17 - 11:04 PM (#3833067)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: GUEST,Roy(Luke)McLean

SCHWEIK> Cyril Tawney is widely regarded as being the leader of The South West(SW) folk music revival. He specialised in songs about the SW and the Royal Navy. Hampshire is not regarded as being part of the SW region, which is widely seen as comprising Cornwall, Devon and maybe Somerset . I can think of many "Tawney songs/recordings" which have a SW character. Off hand, I can not think of any with a "Hampshire flavour"!

I would refer you to Tawney's obituary in the Independent (available on the internet) which quotes him as follows: "Although I was born in Hampshire, I had already put down roots in the Devon and Cornwall area through my naval service, so I settled in Plymouth and got on with the business of learning as much as I could about West Country songs."

In the circumstances, I think its fair to say that, as regards geographical regions, his musical roots lay in the SW and that it was the SW which provided his initial musical inspiration, not Hampshire!

MARTIN RYAN > No sign of user name "MYSELF" from the old days?

17 Jan 17 - 06:56 PM (#3833248)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: michaelr

Kudos to Cyril for putting down roots and serving in the Navy before he was born.

17 Jan 17 - 11:30 PM (#3833283)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: CupOfTea

I was interested to see the strong feelings about songs with a particular locale NOT being changed to another place. Just ain't right? I can see the point with Sammy's Bar, because the story is so thoroughly steeped in geography and language of the place.

But I can think of a number of songs in the Irish/English/Scottish/American spectrum that have "migrated" from place to place when the story is so universal, and many times sung by those who've migrated as well. The back-and-forth of many performers between these places seems to make changing place names part of the show - throw in a local reference in a place it'll fit conveniently.

Ed Miller, a Scotsman living in Austin took "Rivers of Texas" and interspersed some verses about Scottish river-powered mills and created "Rivers and Rievers" (and Rivers of Texas has other variants with river names from other states - Illinois, New York, etc) He's als0 turned some Irish songs into Scottish versions.

"Roseville Fair" by Bill Staines got transplanted to somewhere in Ireland more than once.

Jean Ritchie's "One I Love" was touted as a "very old traditional Irish song sung by an American" with a revolting animation on youtube, though some of the words were similar to older songs; Universal theme,floating verses? Still doesn't make Jean's version Irish.

Si Kahn's "Aragon Mill" has had considerable coverage as "Belfast Mill" and possibly other titles/place names, such that it's been recorded as "Irish trad" which it ain't.

I do like it when performers actually KNOW what the original version is of songs written within living memory, and stray from it only for very good reasons. It's weird, but youtube and other online forms of access have managed to create a new kind of aural tradition that lacks authenticity or reference or accuracy. I appreciate that there are folks who look out for the interests of songwriters of their acquaintance - policing the ignorant. Some songwriters merely get amused when their songs go viral within their lifetime, thought to be traditional.

Joanne in Cleveland

18 Jan 17 - 01:03 AM (#3833285)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: michaelr

Ah yes - policing the ignorant. We definitively need more of that.

18 Jan 17 - 01:24 AM (#3833286)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman

Roy Mclean, his roots were Hampshire and Devon whatever that obituary might say, it is incorrect, explain which royal navy base he worked from in Cornwall and give details of his residence times in Cornwall.it is true he recorded childrens songs from devon and cornwall but that does not mean his roots were Cornish.Cyril was born in hampshire and spent time in devon later lived in leeds and studied at lancaster university

18 Jan 17 - 01:26 AM (#3833287)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman

I dont need to read factually partially inaccurate obituaturies,I knew Cyril quite well and had lots of conversation with him

18 Jan 17 - 02:27 AM (#3833292)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Teribus

"I can not think of any with a "Hampshire flavour"!

Try "Cheering of the Queen" the very first song Cyril Tawney came up with that he put down on paper - HRH Princess Margaret asked him for the words, she thought it a very funny song and he obliged her. About as Hampshire and Naval as you could get.

The song is about what happened to the crew of the "T-Class" Submarine Cyril Tawney was serving in at the Queen's Coronation Review. Moored close to the shore of the Isle of Wight with the crew all mustered on the Conning Tower and Casing of the Submarine to cheer the Queen as she sailed past in HMS Surprise. As the Queen sailed past the crew of the submarine were attacked by "A swarm of gnats as big as bats", apparently the Queen and her Husband remarked on how enthusiastically the crew of the submarine were cheering. The song written down was often performed by the crew of HMY Britannia for the Queen.

18 Jan 17 - 02:34 AM (#3833294)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan

CupOfTea

Well said, Joanne.

Regards

18 Jan 17 - 09:10 AM (#3833351)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: GUEST,Reinhard

"I dont need to read factually partially inaccurate obituaturies"

The Independent obituary quoted Cyril Tawney's own words which are from a 1972 interview by Eric Winter.

18 Jan 17 - 11:01 AM (#3833369)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman

yes, the independent obit it is wrong , Cyrils roots were hampshire and devon.
a more accurate obit was derek schofields in guardian
for christ sake there is only one naval base in cornwall for helicopters cyril was a submariner, the oggy man is devonport based.
it is about time that these repeated press inaccuracies were sorted. cyrils roots were hampshire and devon.anyone who knows anything about the west country will tell you of the fierce rivalry between devon and cornwall.
if you are going to be inaccurate, do a proper job, and say he had somerset and gloucstershire roots, why not? its all the west country, or why not say he had roots from the scilly isles, that is equally wide of the mark

18 Jan 17 - 11:32 AM (#3833377)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman

"I can not think of any with a "Hampshire flavour"! well ha ha, just shows how little you know, try gosport tragedy, and gosport nancy, tradtional songs which cyril either collected or sang.
on one occasion when Cyril was staying in my house, we were having a long conversation he stated that in fact his ancestors were from Stapleford Tawney, however his immediate roots were hampshire and devon and the royal navy

18 Jan 17 - 11:36 AM (#3833378)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman

if you wan to check it out you will find his funeral service was in stapleford tawney church in essex, kind of backs up what i am saying. but never mind anyone that actually knew cyril well, carry on quoting inaccurate obits.

18 Jan 17 - 11:47 AM (#3833379)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman

the above post referred to ONE OF HIS RELATIVES who was buried in stapleford tawney.

18 Jan 17 - 11:58 AM (#3833380)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Jeri

Dick, who would you say is more believable on the subject of Cyril Tawney, you or Cyril?

18 Jan 17 - 01:51 PM (#3833398)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: thetwangman

Charges of plagiarism, thieving and anti-English bigotry are completely ridiculous. The author was credited on the original album so I'm sure the band were well aware of the song's origins and never claimed it to be Irish. The tag 'Irish Music' on the album cover was probably a record company decision and no big deal in my opinion (even though it may have misinformed the YouTube uploader). Changing the words is less forgivable but it is no more anti-English than changing the words to Irish songs is anti-Irish.

18 Jan 17 - 02:41 PM (#3833410)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Jack Campin

The record company in question was ARC Music, the world music arm of the Scientologists, who, whatever else you might say about them, have never been afraid to label their products with unfashionable ethnicities, and are quite happy to describe something as English when the artist wants them to:

http://www.arcmusic.co.uk/shop/theultimateguidetoenglishfolklinernotesbyjonboden-p-1315.html

This outfit may be the same as a "Tara Irish band" who appear to be Hungarian. (I have encountered this sort of Irish-inspired cultural anti-Englishness from Hungarians; they probably got it from Germans who had themselves got it second-hand, and it fits in well with endemic Hungarian nationalist paranoias). Click for some of the worst bodhran playing you ever likely to witness:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVAUYATWkSo

18 Jan 17 - 03:03 PM (#3833413)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: thetwangman

As far as I am aware the singer was an Irish guy living in Germany. I'm sure he sang the song because he liked it and I'm sure he was well aware it was written by an Englishman. And I think we can safely assume that he liked lots of English songs. The charge of 'Irish-inspired cultural anti-Englishness' does not stand up.

18 Jan 17 - 03:07 PM (#3833415)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman

Jeri.
Cyril was born in gosport, Hants SANG songs relating to the place, as Teribus pointed out also composed a song whilst there, his roots were Hampshire and Devon, He served as a submariner. his ase was devonport which is in Devon, NOT CORNWALL.Most of his songs were written during his naval service which was not based in cornwall.
he collected in devon and cornwall and later lived for many years in leeds, these are facts, and what he told me personally.
i dont expect an American to understand the rivalry between devon and cornwall it is similiar to yorks and lancs, you can believe what you like and do you know i dont care what you think.

18 Jan 17 - 03:22 PM (#3833420)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman

He moved back not to cornwall but to exeter devon,check it out jeri.
Eric Winter was using a bit of poetic licence.
Cyrils roots were not somerset, gloucstershire or cornwall, the scilly isles,or bristol, but hampshire and devon

18 Jan 17 - 03:41 PM (#3833422)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman

cyril tawney songbook.
1 sammys bar.2 plymouth lament[plymouth is in devon, jeri]. 3 nobby hall
4 bitter sweet bed
5. second class citizens song [mentions plymouth.
6 cheering the queen[ gosport hants]7 newnames for old,8. vanity. 9. beacon park[that is in plymouth devon] and so on not one song about cornwall or any mention of cornwall.

18 Jan 17 - 04:01 PM (#3833424)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman

here are cyrils own words in his introduction to his song book [not one word about cornwall
BORN INTO A ROYAL NAVAL FAMILY IN GOSPORT HANTS SPENT MOST OF WORLD WAR TWO AS AN EVACUEE IN HAMPSHIRE VILLAGE OF HAMBLEDON, HE OBTAINED A COUNTY SCHOLARSHIP TO GOSPORT GRAMMAR SCHOOL. HE JOINEd ROYAL NAVY IN 1946. IN MAY 1959 HE LEFT THE NAVY, TO START ON STUDYING AND COLLECTING SONGS FROM THE SOUTH WEST
MAKING HIS BASE PLYMOUTH DEVON IN ORDER TO CONCENTRATE ON HIS BROADCASTING CAREER.
his own words in his introduction to his songbook, not one word about cornwall.WHY?COS HIS ROOTS WERE HAMPSHIRE AND DEVON.
IT IS AS STUPID AS SAYING WOODY GUTHRIE WAS FROM TEXAS

18 Jan 17 - 04:14 PM (#3833428)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman

MORE STUPID BECAUSE AT LEAST GUTHRIE lived in texas for a while Tawney never lived in cornwall, he did collect some childrens songs there but thats about it, he brought on one april morning to the attention of the folk revival, a song that was not collectd in cornwall, but in devon.

18 Jan 17 - 10:27 PM (#3833481)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: GUEST,Guest Luke McLean

SCHWEIK> My last words on this thread which seems to have turned into a mini forest fire.

[1] I am not questioning Tawney's biological roots. It is fact that he was born/grew up in Hampshire and nobody is disputing this. You seem to be introducing this as some form of deflection from my original point. An attempt to introduce a red herring?

[2] My original point is that despite his Hampshire birthplace he appears to be musically identified more with folk songs from or sited in the South West, ie Cornwall & Devon. I see the SW as being the main location of his musical roots, especially in his early days. I feel his initial important musical inspiration sprang from this area and the Royal Navy.

[3] I feel you are being rather foolhardy to reject the "Independent" obituary so completely out of hand. Remember, it claims to be quoting your friend Cyril Tawney himself!

[4] I do not object to you claiming Tawney as a Hampshire man as that is what he patently was. I was referring more to his musical roots rather than his biological ones. Similarly, I think that we would all agree that Wilfred Owen's poetic roots/inspirations are mainly to be found in the trenches of WW1., rather that in Shropshire, Wales or anywhere else in the UK Just like The Rolling Stones musical roots are to be found in the Mississippi
Delta or South Chicago, not London.

[5] I stand by my original point. However I do not feel there is anything more constructive for me to say on the matter at this time. I think we should drop it. We are after all both on the same side --- We are both admirers of Cyril Tawney and the "Sammy's Bar"song.

[6] The Rigs of Time version is actually the worst version of a good song that I have ever heard! Talk about destroying something beautiful !!!!!!!! Moreover, the altering of the wording of contemporary songs, so as to make them appear as if they are from somewhere else, makes me feel very uneasy. As an Irishman I am ashamed that some of my compatriots seem to have been involved in the butchering of this fine song and the deliberate concealment of its true origins along with the name of the outstanding man who wrote it.

19 Jan 17 - 07:41 AM (#3833537)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman

no no non,for the sake of accuracy
"My original point is that despite his Hampshire birthplace he appears to be musically identified more with folk songs from or sited in the South West, ie Cornwall & Devon. I see the SW as being the main location of his musical roots, especially in his early days."
the south west includes somerset gloucestershire, he had no connection with them and very little with cornwall,
his songs are rooted in the navy, hampshire and devon, i have given examples, and quoted his own words from his song book[ jeri please take note and for god sake listen to someone that knew him well and is quoting his own words in print]here is an example of sally free and easy, that was inspired by cyril telling me i should learn it on concertina "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2tUvD0IjQY">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2tUvD0IjQY
i agree with your point no6, not sure about rolling stones roots ,sonny boy williamson said those english guys want to play the blues so bad and thats just what they do

20 Jan 17 - 06:18 AM (#3833666)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: thetwangman

Cyril Tawney was credited on the album. The band are not guilty of stealing, concealment or bigotry.

Jack Campin, "Tara Irish Band" is not the same oufit.

20 Jan 17 - 06:49 AM (#3833669)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Jack Campin

Giving his name does not tell the CD purchaser where he came from, does it?

They couldn't bear to admit that an Englishman wrote a song they wanted to sing. That's hardly an unusual attitude in certain circles.

20 Jan 17 - 07:41 AM (#3833672)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: thetwangman

Come off it. The band is not obliged to tell the CD purchaser where Cyril Tawney came from. It is not unusual for CD's to contain no biographical information on credited songwriters. How do you know they couldn't bear to admit Cyril Tawney was English? How is it even possible for them to deny it? I'm sure some Irish songwriters must have been just simply credited by English singers on recordings without any biographical information.

20 Jan 17 - 11:14 AM (#3833694)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Jack Campin

Yes they WERE obliged to say where he came from. Saying nothing makes you part of the farrago of bullshit that gets Dirty Old Town classified as "Irish trad" and encourages Irish (or more often wannabe-Irish) xenophobes to think that sort of racism is just normal and not worth commenting on. If you put out a CD labelled as "Irish music" and a large fraction of what's on it isn't Irish in any way, you have some explaining to do.

It's less common than it used to be, and as Martin Ryan pointed out there's absolutely NO need for it; Irish tradition has plenty enough achievements of its own without stealing the credit from other people. The minority of anti-English knuckle-draggers are a destructive discredit to the Irish music scene.

20 Jan 17 - 01:23 PM (#3833733)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: thetwangman

English singers not stating the nationality of Irish writers on CDs is not racism and vice versa. If I wrote a hit song for an English singer I would hate it if they made a big deal about my nationality because it is irrelevant. The Irish tradition stealing credit is a figment of your imagination.

20 Jan 17 - 01:38 PM (#3833739)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: thetwangman

The ignorance of individuals or less than comprehensive liner notes on budget CDs does not constitute a whole tradition stealing credit.

20 Jan 17 - 11:48 PM (#3833797)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: GUEST,Guest Roy McLean

SCHEIK: I say Tawney's musical roots are largely to be found in the South West which I see as being The Navy, Cornwall and Devon. You say they are to be found in The Navy, Devon and Hampshire. Small difference.

While you stretch the SW to include Somerset and Glous, Im afraid I do not regard Glous. as being SW. I think Somerset has fair claim to being SW.

You say his influence from Cornwall was, "Very little". I cant go along with that! Agree to disagree?

When I see, as on Johnny McAvoy's double Irish favourites CD, "Sammy's Bar" being described as a favourite Irish traditional song and a favourite old Irish ballad, I just feel its wrong. Makes me want to puke. Poor old Cyrils only been dead a matter of years and they are already picking over his bones!

21 Jan 17 - 05:58 AM (#3833838)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman

fair comment, however it is important to maintain accuracy. as an Englshman I am aware of the strong diffrence between cornwall and devon, particularly as many cornish people dont regard themselves as english, they once had a seperate langauge up until 1768, "Barrington's brother, Daines Barrington, searched for speakers of the Cornish language and at Mousehole found Dolly Pentreath, a fish seller of 76 years of age, who "could speak Cornish very fluently". ... Pentreath, who died in 1777, is popularly claimed to be the last native speaker of Cornish".true the language has been recreated, the devon cornwall thing is abit like like cork and kerry,
the facts are cyrils roots are devon and hampshire and royal navy, he was undisputedly english not cornish

21 Jan 17 - 06:04 AM (#3833839)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: thetwangman

Johnny McEvoy recorded Sammy's Bar in 1974. I can't imagine Cyril minded and I'm sure everything was above board royalties wise. Johnny probably doesn't have any control over the titles of compilation CD reissues.

21 Jan 17 - 06:37 AM (#3833843)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: thetwangman

Checking on Discogs, I don't think any of Johnny's original albums had such corny titles.

21 Jan 17 - 06:49 AM (#3833845)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman

"South West England is one of nine official regions of England. It is the largest in area, covering 9,200 square miles (23,800 km2)[1] and the counties of Gloucestershire, Bristol, Wiltshire, Somerset, Dorset, Devon and Cornwall, as well as the Isles of Scilly. Five million people live in South West England."
Cornish songs include songs in cornish langauge cyril did not sing any of those, the person that did and who specialised incornish songs was brenda wooton, [l assisted by john the fish, for god sake lets have some accuracy ,

21 Jan 17 - 07:03 AM (#3833848)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman

to briefly divert about the cornish folk scene apart from brenda wooton, there was an invasion in the early sixties offolk singers, blues singers songwriters from other places who sang american folk songs, wizz jones, ralph mctell, donovan etc,these were described as beatniks. cyril tawney was not a beatnik and was not involved in this scenek, which was geared to some extent around st ives.
JERI AGAIN I WAS FECKIN WELL THERE, IN 1966, so i am talking from first hand experience, so will yopu just feckin listen instead of misquoting inaccurate feckin obits.

21 Jan 17 - 07:40 AM (#3833852)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman

Cyril did collect songs from charlie wills again as far as i know he was not cornish or did he sing songs in the cornish.language

21 Jan 17 - 02:47 PM (#3833924)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: McGrath of Harlow

Changing a song to make it refer to a different country is really not much different from updating a play and doing it in costumes of a different times. It can be a mistake, but equally it can be a valid way of helping people see it as relevant and real.

21 Jan 17 - 05:44 PM (#3833975)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman

it is imo very different, rather, why not go away and write your own play or song

21 Jan 17 - 09:53 PM (#3834016)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: McGrath of Harlow

No rules about it - when Ewan McColl rewrote Jamie Foyers to be about the Spanish Civil War it made a lot of sense.

22 Jan 17 - 04:41 AM (#3834043)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman

you are generalising from one particular example .and in doing so inadvertently creating a new rule
MacColl adapted it from a traditional Scottish song about a soldier who fought in the Peninsular War, only retaining the first verse.
Ewan did not take a composed song without the authors permission and alter it, a completely different scenario

22 Jan 17 - 08:54 PM (#3834198)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: McGrath of Harlow

My point was that rewriting songs to meet different times and places can be perfectly appropriate.

I don't think whether a song's author is known or not is actually relevant in this context. All songs got made up by someone, and more often than not they've been remade by others.

I think Israel Kamakawiwoʻole was perfectly right to rework Over the Rainbow and What a Wonderful World and stick them together. Something new and evocative emerges.

Of course copyright and so forth comes into it, but that's about law, not artistic ethics.

22 Jan 17 - 10:33 PM (#3834205)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: GUEST,GUEST Roy McLean

SCHWEIK> I know what you mean about Cornish nationalism. I once had neighbours who happened to be Cornish. They were very proud of being Cornish and some of them refused to regard themselves as being in any way English! Being an Ulsterman myself, I am well acquainted with the intricacies and pitfalls of nationalism. I wish you well in your self proclaimed "quest for accuracy", just be careful where you find it!

I think we should be careful to differentiate between songs and tunes. Tunes can obviously be used repeatedly simply by using a new set of words/lyrics each time. This does not corrupt the tune in anyway. However, if we are dealing with a song, especially one of relatively recent composition with a structured narrative and story line, then I think the situation is different. If you leave the story line more or less intact but simply fill in new words in certain slots and these new words change the perceived origin/character of the original, then it seems a bit off. Its like you cant write your own songs and instead are indulging in some sort of writing by numbers activity. Moreover, if this were done extensively enough we would reach a situation where no country/culture could build up "song lists" of their own! Folk music would lose an essential tenent of its character and the "Folk music process" would become the "Folk music anti-process" which would result in its original and basic regional enrichment system being lost.

TWANGMAN> As you say McEvoy recorded the song in the 70s. He produced, IMHO, the best recorded version there is. At that time he used the original lyrics and did not attempt in any way to portray the song as being "Irish"! The Irish tagging was done on a later double album, the sort of "Best Hits" thing that artists tend to produce near the end of their careers to try and make a few last bucks. I am an admirer of Johnny McEvoy. I believe he really liked this song and I am quite prepared to believe he had nothing to do with the Irishing up of this wonderful song. It seems more the handiwork of the PR department/Producer/Record company!

23 Jan 17 - 08:20 AM (#3834256)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman

McGrath you are wrong a composed song is owned by someone it need their permission to alter it, and certainly to significant;y alter its meaning that is the law, you can argue what you like , but Sammys bar AND EVERY OTHER MODERN COMPOSED SONG IN FOLK GENRE OR ANY POTHERGENRE is copyrighted it is not only good manners to ask, but it is also the law. trad material is completely different.

23 Jan 17 - 08:25 AM (#3834258)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman

MC GRATH ETHICALLY IT IS WRONG UNLESS YOU ASK THE COMPOSERS PERMISSION. if they are dead leave the song unaltered, it is bad manners. the song writer wrote it in a certain way if he is not available leave it be.

23 Jan 17 - 11:07 AM (#3834284)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: GUEST,pauperback

Over the barrel, (where the cheap shots are taken).

http://www.pennlive.com/news/2016/06/a_guide_to_punctuation_on_the.html

24 Jan 17 - 10:25 PM (#3834678)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: GUEST,Guest Roy McLeanI

I mean, every song will be from nowhere and every song will be from anywhere! The Koreans will be claiming "Danny Boy" as their own and once again the Chinese will be insisting that "Over the sea to Skye" is really only "Over the sea to Formosa" in disguise. The origins of songs will become so corrupted, distorted or downright plagiarised that they will cease to have an origin. If they lose their origins then they will lose their traditions. If they lose their traditions then Folk music collectors will have great trouble making meaningful collections for many of them, given that invariably the first thing we what to hear about a song is where it is from.

25 Jan 17 - 11:22 AM (#3834767)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: McGrath of Harlow

That's precisely what's happened wiith songs throughout history. They get changed, intentionally or through lapses of memory, and that's why we hacpve variants and families of songs.

"Trad is different" No it isn't. Someone made up the songs we think of as traditional, often a lot more recently than people realise.

Ownership and property is one thing, but they've got nothing to do with the ethics of the thing. Unless makng mney comes into it, in which case there's an obligatin to pay up. Manners comes in if you know the person involved, not otherwise, in how I see it.

I'm very much of the opinion of Sydney Carter here, and not his executors. He believed songs should not be seen as property so far as changing tgem was involved, and welcomed tge idea his sngs might gve birth that variants.

25 Jan 17 - 01:06 PM (#3834790)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman

"I'm very much of the opinion of Sydney Carter here, and not his executors. He believed songs should not be seen as property so far as changing tgem was involved, and welcomed tge idea his sngs might gve birth that variant"
That was Carters opinion, but no one else has the right to change any composition without the song writers permission, would you mind me altering a constable paiting of flatford mill, because i wanted it to be a picture of ireland, of course you would nt.
nobody alters the words of masters of war consciously, because they need dylans permission, it is not a tradtional song, tradtional songs were altered both consciously and unconsciously.altering the origin of a song can also mean altering its meaning if that happens without the writers permission it is unethical, why then should i not alter pincher marten because i think its boring?why not because it is not my artistic work and i have not received goldings permission.

25 Jan 17 - 01:11 PM (#3834793)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Jack Campin

a composed song is owned by someone it need their permission to alter it, and certainly to significant;y alter its meaning that is the law,

It is in some jurisdictions and not in others. Parody is permitted unconditionally in most places (I think France is an exception). In general, the original composer will still be entitled to payment when a modified or parodied version of their song is performed.

But law only follows ethics in part. Refusing to acknowledge a composer's nationality or ethnicity (as a lot of people in the wannabe-Irish music scene do when the composer is English) is repulsively bigoted, but I doubt there's a law against it anywhere.

(Wouldn't it be great if there was a law we could use to ban English D/G melodeon players from mutilating the Bluebell Polka by leaving the C section out? Or to compel Irish musicians to play Mrs Macleod of Raasay the right way round, in the right key and with the right title?...)

25 Jan 17 - 01:15 PM (#3834795)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman

manners come in to it regardless of whether you know the people, these days you can get on the net or the phnoe and blooming well contact them and ask.
have you ever written any songs McGrath? if you had and someone altered the meaning without asking, I dont think you would be so magnanimous about people alreing your artistic work.
shall i rewrite Icarus without asking ann lister? and while i am about it give it a "we all live happily ever after ending" where will it all end

25 Jan 17 - 01:25 PM (#3834799)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman

McGrath, perhaps Bellamys transports should be rewritten, instead of being sent to australia, why not start them in austalia and them send them into outer space.,or the moon

26 Jan 17 - 06:07 AM (#3834948)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: GUEST,Jim Bainbridge

Jack Campin- your last sentence was totally ridiculous!
The 'English' way of playing the Bluebell Polka on the G/D melodeon is mainly based on Walter Bulwer's fiddle playing on the iconic 'English Country Music' LP put out by Reg Hall & friends in the mid 60s. Nothing to do with G/D melodeon players- I have one of the 99 copies issued, although I believe it is on CD nowadays.

Jimmy Shand's version was wonderful, but was not the original, so why should that version be frozen in time?

Likewise McLeod's Reel is of ancient origin & various versions known throughout the English-speaking world, so claiming the allegedly Scottish version as definitive is as reprehensible as the Irish plagiarism/bigotry you suggested earlier. As for getting the name right, it's a great tune and if it was called 'Donald Trump's Return to Stornoway' it would still be great'.

This music is in permanent flux- the way tunes are played by others may not be to your taste- I think much of modern 'traditional' music is appalling but you CANNOT start talking about CORRECT versions and names- it's changing all the time- we are individuals not robots.

Acknowledging where YOU got it is one thing, but your previous accusations of anti- English attitudes in Ireland is contradicted by such ill-informed statements.

26 Jan 17 - 09:21 AM (#3834980)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Jack Campin

Well that was a windup...

...but what Jimmy Shand played was exactly the way it was first published by Kerr around 1879. (Merry Melodies volume 1 - not exactly difficult to find). Its form is a standard one for polkas: ABACA, with B in the dominant and C in the subdominant. There are dozens of other commonly played tunes in that form, starting with Strauss waltzes and including maybe the majority of Felix Burns's output - if you don't get it you have a decades-long hole in your knowledge of Western European dance music.

And Mrs Macleod was a significant historical figure - the sort of person who gets brand new tunes dedicated specifically to them. (Look her up in Johnson and Boswell's travels in the Hebrides). We know pretty close to the exact year when the tune was written (mid-1770s), though not the composer; the location was most likely Skye but could have been Edinburgh. We also know what it was based on: it's a reel time adaptation of a Gaelic satirical song in 6/8 taking the mickey out of the Campbells, "I was at a wedding in Inveraray", better known jigged up into "The Campbells are Coming" - reels were the big thing that decade in Scotland (and hardly existed in Ireland). It is not some vague piece of undefinably ancient folkloric noodling.

26 Jan 17 - 11:47 AM (#3835005)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: thetwangman

Jack Campin, the practice of Irish people 'refusing' to acknowledge the nationality of English composers is non-existent. Nobody has ever refused to acknowledge the nationality of Cyril Tawney, Ewan MacColl, Lennon and McCartney or anyone else.

Omission is not the same thing as refusal. Irish people are not the only nationality who omit the composer's nationality when crediting their name. English people do it too. It is normal practice. Why are you singling out the Irish?

26 Jan 17 - 11:54 AM (#3835008)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman

A number of scottish tunes were indeed taken and altered to reels the irish tune The Musical Priest is an example of a tune that was orignlly scottish and a strathspey, I do not feel strongly about that kind of alteration because it does not mean meaning of a song is altered.

26 Jan 17 - 01:25 PM (#3835038)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Jack Campin

Nobody has ever refused to acknowledge the nationality of Cyril Tawney, Ewan MacColl, Lennon and McCartney or anyone else.

Googling "dirty old town irish song" gives you nearly six million hits.

Most of the links to "Fiddlers Green" you get from Google imply that it's Irish. There is even a German-Irish band named after it.

26 Jan 17 - 04:30 PM (#3835067)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: GUEST

None of that proves your accusations. Can you name a single person who refused to acknowledge Ewan MacColl's nationality?

26 Jan 17 - 04:44 PM (#3835068)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: GUEST

In fact Jack, you might be glad to hear that Irish people pointing out that Dirty Old Town is an English song has actually become a bit of a cliché at this stage. And the fact that Dirty Old Town is so well known in Ireland probably means a higher percentage of the Irish population know who Ewan MacColl is (and where he comes from).

26 Jan 17 - 05:06 PM (#3835070)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman

As a matter of fact, I once heard Fiddlers green sung at a GAA SCOR Competition, The competitor was not dsqualified even though all the songs were supposed to be irish, in this case it was probably just ignoramce of its origins.
on another occasion i was judging a singing competition and the performer sang caledonia a song written by dougie maclean and as i understand it a scottish song, again the performer was ignorant of the songs origins, again this was supposed to be songs that were irish ,it was supposed to be a competition promoting irish culture. so i have first hand experience that confirms what jack is saying, that songs are often assumed to be irish,even in competitions that are supposed to be exclusively about irish musical culture.
I have also occasionally encountered astonishment on the part of irish people that the english have any trad songs or tunes, I have also met irish people who are very well acquainted with many english trad songs.

26 Jan 17 - 05:59 PM (#3835076)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: GUEST

I know what you're saying Good Soldier but children not reading sleeve notes does not confirm Jack's accusations of anti-English bigotry.

26 Jan 17 - 06:21 PM (#3835079)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: GUEST

Assuming a song to be Irish because it is very popular in Ireland is a bit of a phenomenon alright, but the notion that Irish people can't bear to admit a song is English, once they realise it is, is nonsense.

26 Jan 17 - 06:25 PM (#3835081)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: thetwangman

The last four 'GUEST' posts were mine. Sorry about that.

26 Jan 17 - 06:33 PM (#3835083)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman

Guest, I did not say that exactly, the performer who sang Caledonia was not a child.
Anti english bigotry as regards songs, it does exist but in my opinion and experience its only occasional.
curiously enough i came across a woman who was accused of being a bigot and whose face was on the front page of the Sun.Áine Ní Chonaill
Áine Ní Chonaill, who was, and possibly still is a spokesperson and founder of the Irish anti-immigration group Immigration Control Platform,
I was present when she sang the song, Bonny Bunch of Roses, She was present at a gig i did and I had a conversation with her which surprised me, the conversation showed she was very knowledgeable about English trad songs, so what do you make of that?

26 Jan 17 - 06:45 PM (#3835088)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: thetwangman

I'm not sure what you're asking me but why were you surprised?

26 Jan 17 - 06:51 PM (#3835090)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: thetwangman

Even Áine Ní Chonaill can't deny an English song is English.

26 Jan 17 - 07:11 PM (#3835094)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: thetwangman

Not knowing a song is English is not the same as denying its English. Very occasionly I might encounter someone who is surprised to discover that certain songs are in fact English. But they weren't denying it up until then, they just didn't know beforehand.

26 Jan 17 - 07:24 PM (#3835098)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Jack Campin

the notion that Irish people can't bear to admit a song is English, once they realise it is, is nonsense.

Most of them don't ever realize. It only takes a few people to spread a lot of misinformation. Once the misinformation has built up to a bad enough level, omission rather than overt lying is all it takes to keep the ball rolling.

I bought a little Yiddish dictionary last week. It has a good proverb which translates as "a half truth is a whole lie".

27 Jan 17 - 02:44 AM (#3835135)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: thetwangman

But the was no overt lying in the first instance. As I said, the assumption that certain songs are Irish because they are very well known in Ireland is a phenomenon but deliberate misinformation regarding the origin of English songs is not a real phenomenon.

I really don't understand how you think it is even possible. How would anybody get away with it?

Okay, some people will never realise the origins of certain songs. So what? It does not make them bigots and it does not make you or I better than them. Surely there are some pop songs that you yourself will never realise the origin of. The fact that certain English folk songs are popular in Ireland is a good thing in my opinion. Unfortunately the general non-folk affecianado audience don't really care about the origins of popular songs. That is not uniquely Irish and it is not anti-English.

28 Jan 17 - 10:33 PM (#3835442)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: GUEST,GUEST Roy McLean

At most of the folk music sessions I attend the singer gives some sort of introduction concerning the origin and story line(if any) of the song. I find this practice has various advantages: [1] It makes the song more interesting and understandable; [2] It facilitates the classification of the song. This in turn aids further study/research of the song and leads to the publication of interesting volumes such as "Songs of Shetland" rather than just "Folk songs of Unknown Origin; Volume 1,500,000"; [3] It goes some way towards preserving the origins of the song and this helps maintain the regional characteristic which is so central to most folk music and which comprises much of its charm; [4] It helps ensure that writers and regions receive fair credit for their labours/creativity. This may take the form of royalties or cultural kudos. I know people who travel all the way to S. America and Africa solely to experience local folk music first hand. This produces a trickle down effect which aids local musicians/musical cultures and indeed relatively poor foreign countries generally; [5] For some reason which I dont understand, songs usually sound better when rendered in the original form. Perhaps its because if its "your own baby" you take more care of it and a special pride in its production. Modifications to the original often seems to contain unattractive baggage of a political or monetary nature.

29 Jan 17 - 03:01 AM (#3835454)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: michaelr

Well-considered posts like the one by Guest Roy McLean make me wish more of our members were like him.

29 Jan 17 - 04:17 AM (#3835459)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: GUEST,Martin Ryan

Agreed re GUESTRoys comments. My only addition would be to stress the need to optimise the duration of intros - long enough to settle putative listeners, short enougj to prevent them getting restless...

Regards

29 Jan 17 - 01:27 PM (#3835526)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: GUEST,Jim Bainbridge

Yes, a considered post, Roy McLean- I do agree that a SHORT intro to a song can be appreciated by listeners, but not when talking down to people who may know more than you. To say 'Here's Dirty Old Town' by Luke Kelly' might be an example of this. But to return to the subject, Cyril never did this, despite his vast knowledge. And Martin Ryan, yes agreed about keeping it short- the kind of intro saying the 'song's about him & she did that & then she did this & after that they went to.......' and yes it happens!

But I don't like section 5 of your otherwise reasoned post- this is traditional music, I think, and to talk of the 'original' version and then disapproving of modifications to that 'original' just miss the point, this is a music of constant change not frozen in time. Yes, respect is due to all the repertoire, and especially to songwriters who have a right to have their work delivered as intended, unless agreed otherwise with the writer.

A similar attitude comes from Jack Campin. The two tunes you mention -'McLeod's Reel' and 'Bluebell Polka' have a history and I don't doubt that Miss MacLeod existed but the tunes were not delivered to yer man Kerr in Scotland nor to the other one in the mid-1770s in a flash of light by the Angel Gabriel. It was almost certainly already in existence in some form.
And perish the thought- there is no proof this material was even Scottish, musicians travelled even then, Using material from the folk tradition was OK for Dvorak and Vaughan Williams so why not others?

These tunes were probably collated/ plagiarized (you choose which- I don't know) from existing material and why not?
And to say there is a formula for the polka negates the very nature of traditional music. Historically there may have been written down 'classic' polkas with many examples of the formula mentioned as the 'correct' one.
But the music has moved on & to deny it is to put the music in a straitjacket which will kill it. there are many styles of polka in 2017, but to set up rules about it would deny that such as Walter Bulwer and Scan Tester had any right to their own way of playing them.

And all you English players, even the tunes you play from the Bulwer/Tester/Woods/Cann repertoire are not sacrosanct- theirs is NOT the definitive version, to be played note-for note -anything can be re-arranged -give the music respect but GO ON GO ON do it your own way!!

ps Jack, its not surprising about your six million hits on google- that's what people think- welcome to the real world!

29 Jan 17 - 03:46 PM (#3835538)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Jack Campin

this is traditional music, I think, and to talk of the 'original' version and then disapproving of modifications to that 'original' just miss the point, this is a music of constant change not frozen in time

"Sammy's Bar" is about a particular place and time. The story is one that could have happened anywhere, but the point of the song is to make a connection to Malta as it was experienced by the sailors of the British Navy after WW2. ("Dirty Old Town" is much less specifically about Salford - it could be about any decaying industrial city, Detroit or Miskolc would do fine).

I don't doubt that Miss MacLeod existed but the tunes were not delivered to yer man Kerr in Scotland nor to the other one in the mid-1770s in a flash of light by the Angel Gabriel. It was almost certainly already in existence in some form.

She was Mrs Macleod - I said what the antecedents of the tune were; if the reel-time version existed before the mid-1770s it would have been written down. Scottish musicians were good at that. And Kerr names the composer of the Bluebell Polka - F. Stanley, whoever that was (Kerr only gave composer credits to a fraction of the tunes he published, so he must have been certain about that one). If you think it wasn't totally original, let's see your precedent.

29 Jan 17 - 06:17 PM (#3835592)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman

("Dirty Old Town" is much less specifically about Salford - it could be about any decaying industrial city, Detroit or Miskolc would do fine). it would have been good maaners for people to contact peggy seeger before altering it to timbuctoo, or bejing

30 Jan 17 - 04:15 AM (#3835645)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: thetwangman

I have never heard a singer falsely represent an English folk song as an Irish folk song in an introduction. I have, however, heard the often repeated urban legend of 'Dirty Old Town' and 'The Wild Rover' (popular version) being introduced as Irish songs. I think the average audience is quite bored at this stage of being constantly reminded that certain popular songs are not Irish.

I wonder how the band 'Tara' introduced 'Sammy's Bar'? Given that Cyril was credited on the recording, I can't imagine them misrepresenting its origin when introducing it.

30 Jan 17 - 08:30 AM (#3835686)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman

Twangman, I have no idea, but you quoting one group possibly gettin it right does not alter others getting it wrong.

30 Jan 17 - 10:00 AM (#3835698)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: thetwangman

Good Soldier, if the accusation was, some singers simply getting it wrong on occasion, I would agree. It is the accusation of deliberate misrepresentation and anti-English bigotry that I disagree with.

30 Jan 17 - 02:43 PM (#3835767)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: thetwangman

Jack Campin, googling "dirty old town irish song" yields practically the same result as googling "dirty old town english song". All the hits on the first page identify the song's origin.

31 Jan 17 - 03:14 AM (#3835844)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman

Anti english bigotry does exist but so does anti irish bigotry and anti german bigotry, and anti european bigotry.

31 Jan 17 - 04:38 AM (#3835864)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: thetwangman

I never said otherwise Good Soldier. But anti-English bigotry is not likely to come from Irish singers who love English folk songs. It did not come from Luke Kelly, Al O'Donnell or Johnny McEvoy and I doubt that it came from the band Tara. Even the Wolfe Tones acknowledged Ian Campbell.

31 Jan 17 - 07:58 AM (#3835899)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman

ok

31 Jan 17 - 08:57 AM (#3835910)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Jack Campin

I have never heard a singer falsely represent an English folk song as an Irish folk song in an introduction

You don't need to do that explicitly to spread the lie. People will assume that a song is Irish if they know it only from the Dubliners and the Pogues, or from compilations (like the one we started with) that are simply described as "Irish music" without qualification.

And if you're getting bored with having the lie pointed out to you, tough. Are we supposed to believe Obama was born in Kenya because millions of people said that for years? The more widespread and persistent misinformation gets, the greater your obligation to do something about it.

31 Jan 17 - 01:43 PM (#3835958)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: thetwangman

But who told the lie? It certainly wasn't the Pogues or the Dubliners or Christy Moore. Are we supposed to believe there was a lie because you say so? I think you are the one perpetuating a myth here.

31 Jan 17 - 01:55 PM (#3835960)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: thetwangman

Some English songs became popular in Ireland and there was some ignorance initially among the casual listener as to their origin. That is all that happened. There was no lying or bigotry on the musician's part.

31 Jan 17 - 06:55 PM (#3836006)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman

No, Jack has a point, let us take a hypothetical example, christy moore say sings dirty old town, and does not mention that it was written about salford. or by MacColl.
and the promoter of the event has put in his publicity "an evening concert of irish songs with christy moore", the audience is then understandably misinformed and goes away thinking dirty old town is an irish song .
please note i am using this as a hypothetical example.

01 Feb 17 - 02:43 AM (#3836036)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: thetwangman

What if this hypothetical concert takes place in England and the singer fails to mention that a song was written by Woody Guthrie? Does a whole nation then become implicated in a conspiracy of lies and anti-American bigotry? That would seem a bit far fetched to me. Similarly, accusations of lies and anti-English bigotry in the Irish/English situation are unfair. Thanks for the example.

01 Feb 17 - 02:43 AM (#3836037)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: thetwangman

What if this hypothetical concert takes place in England and the singer fails to mention that a song was written by Woody Guthrie? Does a whole nation then become implicated in a conspiracy of lies and anti-American bigotry? That would seem a bit far fetched to me. Similarly, accusations of lies and anti-English bigotry in the Irish/English situation are unfair. Thanks for the example.

01 Feb 17 - 03:31 AM (#3836039)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: David Carter (UK)

If it was billed and an evening of English song, I would expect them to say when one wasn't.

Interesting, there was a news clip a couple of nights ago showing a bunch of Trump supporters protesting in support of his Muslim ban, singing "This Land is Our Land". Woody would have been horrified. Values are far more important than nationality.

01 Feb 17 - 04:23 AM (#3836046)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: thetwangman

Fair enough David, but I noted Good Soldier's example was hypothetical and ran with it. Let's say there was no mention of "Irish songs" in the publicity, would everything be hunky dory? Because that would be a more realistic scenario.

Dirty Old Town is a popular song in Ireland. I've heard it played at Discos. If the DJ started boring the disco dancers with details of its origins he would be booed off the stage.

01 Feb 17 - 06:14 AM (#3836059)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: thetwangman

Widespread deliberate misrepresentation of English folk songs as Irish folk songs by Irish singers is a myth. If accidental misrepresentation only occurs when a concert is billed as "Irish songs" well then that hardly ever happens. If it does happen, it is a bit of a stretch to call it a deliberate lie and completely ridiculous to call it bigotry.

02 Feb 17 - 06:42 AM (#3836235)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge

Jack Campin
the first quote you quoted from my post is misplaced. My comments did say respect for songwriters is essential- it referred to the two tunes in question and nothing else.
The second quote you use is equally pointless. Your response only stresses your preference for the written word. I said that I doubt very much whether the tune 'composers' were 100pc original, but quite probably crystallised into written form material which already existed in some form. There ARE no written antecedents, it was in the tradition already. You seem to believe because it's written down, it is the definitive version, and I DON'T, that's all.
Also the fact the there actually was a Mrs McLeod of Raasay is again irrelevant. We can't ask her, nor can we ask Bonaparte whether he wrote his 'Retreat'on his way home.
The name means NOWT- Iain McLachlan played a lovely Scots tune (whose name escapes me- maybe your books will tell you?)- it's no less lovely because it's now called the 'Dark Island'.
On the current drift of the discussion, I sometimes attend a singing circle near Sligo, where English songs are often sung- singers there seem to feel no need to specify where songs come from, it tends to be CD/concert publicists are more guilty of the chauvinism under discussion,.

02 Feb 17 - 07:45 AM (#3836242)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: thetwangman

I don't come from a long line of traditional singers but, like lots of others, I received songs such as Sammy's Bar and Dirty Old Town by osmosis in childhood. Songs that were recorded and made popular by Irish artists during the 'ballad boom' in Ireland are the ones that were engraved in my psyche during my formative years. Those are the songs that were sung by my aunts and uncles at house parties when I was a child. That is my tradition. Some of those songs happen to be English but they are my songs too. I didn't steal them and nobody told me lies. They cannot be removed from my consciousness and I am not less entitled to them because I am not English.

Lots of non-Irish folk songs have been integrated into Irish popular culture purely by accident. When Liam Clancy passed away there was a tribute paid to him during a televised music awards show (similar to the Brit awards). Video clips of talking heads paying tribute were interspersed with snippets of Liam performing. When a brief clip of Liam singing the Wild Rover appeared, the largely teenage audience burst into song and continued to sing over the talking heads after the clip ended. It was a beautiful moment that would bring a tear to a glass eye. You would never see that at the Brits.

02 Feb 17 - 10:17 AM (#3836282)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Mr Happy

Recently heard it sung 'Roll away the dice-o!'

02 Feb 17 - 04:05 PM (#3836360)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman

well, Twngman you are being ridiculous, of course prejudice exists, it exists when irish people cannot believe that english people have a musical tradition, yes it has happened i have heard it with my own ears, how widespread it is is I would nt be able to say, because i have also heard Irish singers sing english songs, and i know a few that are well awre of the strong singing tradtion in england. but prejudice and ignorance exists every where.
Irish people in my experience are more aware of their own and other peoples musical heritage, than most english people, a lot of english people are quite unawre and uninterested in traditional music,
musical bigotry and ignorance does exist everywhere including ireland

02 Feb 17 - 05:03 PM (#3836368)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: thetwangman

Good Soldier, I am not disputing a certain level of ignorance of the English tradition. I am disputing accusations of deliberate misrepresentation by people who aren't ignorant. People trying to pass off English songs as Irish songs, in full knowledge that they are English, because they are anti-English bigots, is just not realistic.

I am prepared to believe that you have encountered people who have expressed surprise upon hearing of the existence of an English tradition, but how does that equate to bigotry? Are you saying they continue to deny it in front of living proof? I find that hard to believe.

Of course prejudice exists in general. But the specific accusation of widespread deliberate misrepresentation of English songs made in this discussion remain unproven.

02 Feb 17 - 05:34 PM (#3836373)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman

" But the specific accusation of widespread deliberate misrepresentation of English songs made in this discussion remain unproven."
Jack Campin said that didnt he? he is better qualified to reply than me.

03 Feb 17 - 05:26 AM (#3836442)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: thetwangman

Denying prejudice exists would be ridiculous. I am not guilty of that. I am disputing that alleged widespread ignorance is a result of deliberate misrepresentation. There is no evidence of that, or at least none has been offered in this discussion. It would appear to be just an assumption.

03 Feb 17 - 12:15 PM (#3836507)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman

twangman, who said "alleged widespread ignorance is a result of deliberate misrepresentation"

04 Feb 17 - 05:15 AM (#3836619)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: thetwangman

Good Soldier, I was paraphrasing.

Can you honestly say you have encountered bigots who have continued to deny the existence of the English song tradition in the face of evidence? I think it is more likely that some people are just surprised because they had no knowledge beforehand. It is a bit of a stretch to call that prejudice in my opinion.

04 Feb 17 - 06:07 AM (#3836636)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman

i have encountered one or two bigots of that calibre, I understand it in view of what has happened historically [quite often they are the worse for dink], but i have also encountered more people who are aware of the english tradition.
twangman, it is a question of taking a balanced view, of being truthful, and not making wild statements.
overall it has been my experience that more irish singers musicians, do realise there is an english tradition than otherwise, but my experience also includes the occasional bigot who has a prejudiced view, however that is only MY experience,

19 Feb 17 - 11:14 AM (#3839965)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: Georgiansilver

Sammys Bar... Flipping the Whale.

19 Feb 17 - 06:16 PM (#3840029)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: The Sandman

cyril would have liked it

19 Feb 17 - 06:54 PM (#3840032)
Subject: RE: Sammy Bar.. Irish version.
From: michaelr

That clip from Sean Guinan's movie introduced me to the song, and it remains iconically touching to me; so much so that I contacted the director. He said he would send me a DVD of the film (apparently it's not available anywhere) but never did.

The only thing that bothers me about the singing is that they keep going "the last boats ARE leaving."