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01 Mar 12 - 03:38 PM (#3315767) Subject: BS: Rise in number of cases of Witchcraft UK From: GUEST,Bluesman I see the number of reported cases of Witchcraft has risen in the UK. ITV will be running a special report after the late evening news tonight. Two convicted in court today. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2108717/Witchcraft-murder-Torture-chamber-Eric-Bikubi-Magalie-Bamu-beat-drowned-Kristy.html |
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01 Mar 12 - 03:47 PM (#3315769) Subject: RE: BS: Rise in number of cases of Witchcraft UK From: gnu Link no work here in NB, CAN. |
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01 Mar 12 - 03:54 PM (#3315772) Subject: RE: BS: Rise in number of cases of Witchcraft UK From: GUEST,Bluesman Sorry, here is another http://uk.news.yahoo.com/pair-found-guilty-witchcraft-murder-141423256.html |
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01 Mar 12 - 04:33 PM (#3315779) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Jeri This story (about a murder, not about Witchcraft) appears to be the story in the first (broken) link: Pair Guilty Of Boy's 'Witchcraft' Murder A couple have been found guilty of the barbaric murder of a 15-year-old boy who they believed was a witch. |
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01 Mar 12 - 04:49 PM (#3315787) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: katlaughing Trolling again, I see. At least the non-witchcraft has been clarified. Thank you, Jeri. |
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01 Mar 12 - 04:55 PM (#3315790) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Bill D My first thought was to wonder why this is relevant 'news' for us here. |
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01 Mar 12 - 05:50 PM (#3315805) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: GUEST,leeneia Good question, Bill, but anything goes in the BS section. As to the murder - the killers were cruel, brainless and lawless. So why do we simply believe their story that they suspected the boy of witchcraft? Aren't they capable of being liars? I suspect the boy was retarded, crippled or mentally ill and they wanted to get rid of him. Alcohol or something similar probably abetted the process. |
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01 Mar 12 - 06:02 PM (#3315807) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Paul Burke Christians murdered a boy they believed to be a witch. Their belief system, based on the absolute authority of the Bible, is unchallengeable. Even many Weatern Christians sympathise with it, for after all the Bible condemns witchcraft as a capital offence. They are wrong on three counts at least: Witches are superstition. The Bible (used that way) is superstition. Their own religion condems killing, unless you weasel the Ten Commandments. Sadly, many Christians (of our time and previous times) are happy to do that. Joe: Not you or your sort. |
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01 Mar 12 - 06:09 PM (#3315810) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: pdq Ah, Christian bashing. The last refuge of the bigot. |
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01 Mar 12 - 06:11 PM (#3315811) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Paul Burke They are Christians. They killed a boy because of their interpretation of Christianity. Thickhead. |
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01 Mar 12 - 06:30 PM (#3315817) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: pdq They are African immigrants and you don't know what they believe. Dickhead. |
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01 Mar 12 - 06:38 PM (#3315821) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: GUEST,Bluesman A very sad case, programme on about on in UK tonight, seems so called witchcraft murders on the increase in UK. Sick people. |
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01 Mar 12 - 07:51 PM (#3315851) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Bill D Ignorance is ignorance, no matter what the origin and explanation OF it. |
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01 Mar 12 - 08:19 PM (#3315873) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: GUEST,Bluesman Witchcraft or "kindoki" is a widespread belief in parts of central and western Africa. People from all backgrounds and social classes there see it as a normal extension of their spiritual life. It is quite routine for children across Africa to be accused of being witches and the phenomenon is particularly strong in the Democratic Republic of Congo. Revivalist churches preaching the benefits of child exorcism have gained greater influence in the past decade. |
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01 Mar 12 - 08:43 PM (#3315891) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Peter K (Fionn) Why are Jeri and Kat uptight about the term "witchcraft"? It says in the original link (and I assume in the second which I've not tested): "The teenager had refused to admit to sorcery and witchcraft and his punishments in a 'deliverance' ceremony became more horrendous." And, Jeri, what's with the "(sic)"? It was claimed during the trial by the prosecution that the defendants were motivated, however insanely, by their belief in kindoki. Kindoka is a belief in witchcraft which is spreading like wildfire through western Africa, DRC in particular, mapping in some degree the penetration of evangelical Christianity into severely deprived communities. By some estimates it has infested more than 20 million people. The "priests" who identify the witches and perform the sometimes brutal exorcisms make a handsome living out of it. The defence case was that the prime mover, Eric Bikubi, was mentally ill. This was rejected by the prosecution, and ultimately the jury, though it would have been plain to a man on a galloping horse that mental illness played at least some part in the horror. Kindoko has been behind much child abuse both in Britain and Africa, but there seems to be no recorded case of anything comparable with the depravity in this case. Here's a link to more of the story: Guardian backgrounder. But why go with the evidence, when leeneia, in a spasm of imbecile speculation, has given us all the answers: "I suspect the boy was retarded, crippled or mentally ill and they wanted to get rid of him. Alcohol or something similar probably abetted the process." Thanks for that, leeneia. Very thoughtful. |
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01 Mar 12 - 08:46 PM (#3315895) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Peter K (Fionn) Sorry, Bluesman - cross-posted. |
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01 Mar 12 - 11:18 PM (#3315932) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Richard Bridge I don't immediately see how the belief that witchcraft can be exorcised can be anything other than some sort of primitive religious belief. |
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01 Mar 12 - 11:24 PM (#3315937) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Richard Bridge From the Guardian "Bikubi did not seek help: instead he began to pray intensely, researched kindoki on the internet and visited Nigerian pastors in Holloway Road, north London". This appears to put a form of religion firmly in the frame. |
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01 Mar 12 - 11:28 PM (#3315938) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: GUEST Ya gotta be stupid in the first place think like that. I see little difference between them and fundamentalists. Do you (any of you)? |
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02 Mar 12 - 12:18 AM (#3315952) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: katlaughing The use of the word "witchcraft" in this case is pejorative and paints a broad brush just as others do when they brand all Christians as fundegelicals. There are many who practice "the Craft" in a benign way, in fact, the first "rule," if you will, is "an' it harm none." For more info see Witch Vox scroll down for some interesting articles. While I do not refer to all Christians, it does seem this is an outcome of fundegelicals preaching hatred and fear ala Salem, MA witch trials, etc. Remember Sarah Palin and the minister from Africa who spoke about burning witches? Churches and their leaders who condone this kind of violence should be condemned and held accountable, imo, and I would say that no matter what religion they hide behind. |
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02 Mar 12 - 02:06 AM (#3315981) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: GUEST I think most Protestants would agree that the King James Bible is one of the greatest achievements of their religion. Indeed, it is the starting point for all the different interpretations used in a spectrum from Quakers to Westboro. But the church (and state- the two were absolutely intertwined) that brought it into being believed in, and persecuted, witches and heretics. The Authorised Version was published in 1611 and much media space was given over to the celebration of the anniversary last year. The Lancashire witches were hanged in 1612, and Edward Wightman was burned at the stake for Heresy in Burton-on-Trent in the same year. I doubt if we'll see people queuing to take the credit for these barbarous acts this year. |
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02 Mar 12 - 05:10 AM (#3316013) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Amergin It's called civility. Incidents such as this have less to do with religion and more to do with sadism, the torture and spilling of blood and life for your own gratification. |
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02 Mar 12 - 05:54 AM (#3316021) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: GUEST,Eliza I have some experience of West Africa, (though fairly limited I admit, because as a white person a great deal about the cultural norms pertaining there would have been hidden from me). West Africans of all religions (including Muslims) still in their hearts believe in 'sorcery'. This means that any misfortune, illness, accident etc 'must' be the result of sorcery springing from jealousy or malevolence. The Christian organisations there range from White Protestantism to indigenous interpretations of 'Christianity' which in Nigeria, for example, involve 'exorcists' who charge large sums of money to torture and bully 'witches' (or 'sorcerers') into submission, to the eternal gratitude of their families who are intensely afraid of evil and who also suffer the persecution of their neighbours and villagers for harbouring such dangerous forces. Being shunned by ones community is almost a death-sentence in these primitive groups. The victims of these appalling acts are often children, sometimes very young. Families in Africa are complex, and half-siblings from different wives the norm. This causes jealousy and spite, erupting in accusations. Being an 'exorcist' is big business and brings wealth. It's unimaginable for us that anyone could behave with such barbarity, savagery, ignorance and cruelty. I've learned that even the most (to use my husband's word) 'developed' Africans have beliefs about sorcery and fear it. He certainly does, despite my efforts to change his view. But most would not descend to this level of wickedness. It is indeed murder, and should be punished as such. But education I feel is the only long-term answer. ("It's not easy to take Africa out of an African" as they say.) |
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02 Mar 12 - 06:16 AM (#3316028) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: GUEST,Eliza I might add that I have put the word 'witches' in inverted commas out of respect for those here on Mudcat who subscribe to Witchcraft and its practices, but in no way uphold torture or murder as part of this belief system. Similarly for the word 'Christianity', which in no way reflects the established Christian churches throughout Africa, who rightly abhor these things. |
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02 Mar 12 - 06:35 AM (#3316032) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Jack Campin They consulted with Christian pastors before deciding to kill the kid (and seem to have got their approval; at least, they must have known what they were intending to do it and took no action to prevent it). Of course it's to do with religion. |
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02 Mar 12 - 07:04 AM (#3316040) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: GUEST,CS It's worth noting that belief in malefic witchcraft has existed FAR longer than the modern religion of Wicca, which in the late 30's early 40's appropriated the existent term 'witchcraft' into it's retrospectively fabricated 'history'. The modern religion of Wicca and belief in malefic witchcraft (a belief which has existed in virtually all cultures throughout the globe for *thousands* of years) are two entirely separate things. While in the West (principally UK and USA) the appropriation of the term 'witchcraft' by neo-Pagan religions has resulted in an almost complete change in the meaning of the term in popular useage and the loss of it's older meaning, in the rest of the world where superstitious belief in malefic witchcraft persists and Wicca has yet to make any headway as a religion, the term still retains it's original meaning. |
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02 Mar 12 - 07:14 AM (#3316043) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: GUEST,CS PS I should add that I actually like the Wiccan religion and harbour no antagonism to any practicioners. But it's a good idea to keep things clear when discussing difficult matters which involve the traditions and beliefs of other cultures. |
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02 Mar 12 - 07:27 AM (#3316046) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: GUEST,CS "the term still retains it's original meaning." or rather I should say 'equivalent terms' to the term 'witchcraft' yet retain their meaning. In fact a quick look at the dictionary demonstrates that the neo-Pagan usage of the term has not fully supplanted traditional meanings of the word in popular usage as I supposed and that a number of older traditional meanings are still listed alongside the more contemporary "a believer in Wicca": http://www.thefreedictionary.com/witch |
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02 Mar 12 - 08:37 AM (#3316064) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Mayet Considering the adolescent boys' sweaty locker room 'humour' of some recent threads and a proliferation of predictable copy cat trivia surely a case, described as the worst instance of child abuse in the UK and which Judge David Paget, said had been so harrowing that the jurors were exempted from jury service for the rest of their lives, is worthy of some attention and is "relevant 'news' for us here" even if it was in the UK Let's also not sidetrack the important issues with diversory semantics "Witchcraft" is a term with over a dozen different meanings, some mutually exclusive What is obviously being referred to here is 'ndoki' believed to be 'an evil form of witchcraft'. Dr Richard Hoskins of King's College, London, UK is a consultant to the Metropolitan Police on religiously-motivated crime; in 2005 he testified at a trial of three adults charged with the physical abuse of a ten year old child. believed to be practicing an evil form of witchcraft. The victim's aunt was from Angola where, according to Dr Hoskins "...belief in 'ndoki' - the [Lingala] word for witchcraft - is widespread in West Africa and among some immigrant communities in London, fuelled by a massive growth in small fundamentalist Christian churches. The abusers in this case - who worshipped at such a church in Hackney - may have believed they were carrying out a form of exorcism, driving out evil spirits." . "Children affected by what is known as "ndoki" are usually treated as suffering from an "external" affliction that could be dealt with by a curative medicine, without violence. However, the beliefs of some fundamentalist Christian sects in "internal" possession and the need to exorcise evil forces had mixed with traditional beliefs to create incidents in which children were beaten to be cured. "The exorcisms are usually confrontational, much more aggressive," Mr Hoskins said. All of the accused were committed Fundamentalist Christians One of the accused, Sita Kisanga, "said the girl was possessed by an evil spirit, known as kindoki. 'In our community, kindoki happens. It is killing people. It is doing bad things,' she said." Subsequently, when interviewed on the radio, Kisanga said that "Kindoki is something you have to be scared of because in our culture kindoki can kill you and destroy your life completely. Kindoki can make you barren. Sometimes kindoki can ruin you chances of staying in this country. The authorities will arrest you and deport you and kindoki can be part of it." But this case was not unique In 2000 in London, England, an eight-year-old Ivorian girl Victoria Adjo Climbié was also tortured and murdered by her relatives who believed she was similarly possessed Antoine Lokongo, the editor of a Congolese newsletter, Congo Panorama, believes the growing violence in exorcisms is due to western influence. Exorcisms in themselves were not a bad thing and part of Congolese culture and identity, he said. "This is part of our identity, part of our culture but it's being exploited for economic reasons." He said some of the churches set up by Congolese people in the UK were simply "money-making schemes". Child exorcisms were becoming widespread with the growing population seeking refuge in the UK from war zones in Angola and Congo, he added. This abc news report would appear to support these claims of Pentacostal influence and abuse of 'Christianity' N.B. The reporting of the recent trial has, of course, been extensive and even the most superficial attention would inform that the victim was not ' retarded, crippled or mentally ill' in any form; both the victims sisters were only spared the same fate because they 'confessed' Neither was their any indication that alcohol had played any part in the tragedy |
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02 Mar 12 - 09:22 AM (#3316078) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Richard Bridge In short, it appears that the killers asserted that what they were doing was Christian. |
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02 Mar 12 - 10:39 AM (#3316118) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: GUEST,CS " a case, described as the worst instance of child abuse in the UK" It makes me wonder in such instances to what extent extreme Christian fundamentalist views may in fact represent a purely superficial excuse for indulging an entirely personal proclivity for violence and Sadism? I recall reading an account of another African 'witchcraft' abuse case here in the UK not so long ago (can't recall the child's name unfortunately, but it was another high profile case), and it was clear that at least one of the abusers involved fully enjoyed both the abuse and taunting the child with what they were planning. |
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02 Mar 12 - 12:35 PM (#3316170) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: GUEST,Eliza I'm sorry, but in no way whatsoever were these appalling acts committed by Christians in the true sense of the word. This is not Christianity in any sense. They were primitive, superstitious and frenzied acts of pure abuse. Please don't judge or condemn all Christians on the basis of this issue. |
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02 Mar 12 - 12:38 PM (#3316173) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Musket Since when was Christian bashing the last refuge of the bigot? It tends to be the bigoted people claiming to saying what they say as Christians I enjoy bashing, or questioning as I believe the correct term is. And Tories And Socialists And Sheffield United supports And Lib Dems And anybody who I happen to disagree with who tries ramming their beliefs down my throat. Seems to me that bigot is a word used too freely and understood less so. A sad example of what happens when people listen and actually believe the crap that spews out from pulpits. If they concentrated on the love thy neighbour bit and stopped telling people to believe the bible as if it wasn't fantasy, simple morons like the people convicted here wouldn't commit their crimes. Their vicar / pastor whatever will be sat wondering where they got this idea from in the first place..... |
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02 Mar 12 - 01:11 PM (#3316192) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Paul Burke I'm sorry, but in no way whatsoever were these appalling acts committed by Christians in the true sense of the word.... They were primitive, superstitious and frenzied acts of pure abuse. Please don't judge or condemn all Christians on the basis of this issue. I was the negligent GUEST of 02.06 that pointed out that the opposite is the case: if a belief that totrure and lethal violence against witches and other spiritual opponents is justified is not Christian, then the creators of that magnificent book, the King James Bible, were not Christian. To deny the recorded reality of Christian history is to behave like Russian communists of the 1930s. And the harping on "primitive", "African immigrants" and the like smacks of racism. But what else would you expect of pdq? |
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02 Mar 12 - 02:07 PM (#3316217) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: gnu I swore I wouldn't open this thread. I only opened it to post that I can't read it because I would weep and my blood pressure would go thru the roof. Also, hang the bastard(s). gnightgnu |
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02 Mar 12 - 02:13 PM (#3316220) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: GUEST,Bluesman I knew there would be people commenting here who would put the blame for this on religion. Do they think that If there was no such thing as religion, all Evil would cease to exist ? The 'root of all Evil' is not the love of money ,it is the love and abuse of POWER !! What is happening here is the forces of Evil are misusing religion in order to falsly claim 'Gods power' for themselves. This has happened many times thoughout the history of the world, especialy in primative societies. These people are not just 500 years behind us they are thousands of years behind us, I can think of no time when it was part of our culture to beat children to death for being witches ! Within the past two years more than 80 children have suffered appalling abuse after being branded as witches in a crimewave fuelled by medieval beliefs imported from Africa, Asia and the Caribbean. In the Victorian era the Englishman's burden was to civilise the world. Now under liberal multiculturalism the world drags England back down into the Stone Age. Thanks, Blair and Brown. |
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02 Mar 12 - 02:27 PM (#3316224) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: GUEST,Eliza I used the word 'primitive', but no-one could say I'm racist. My husband is an African. I cannot comment on other religions, but Christianity as set out in the New Testament (not as twisted out of all recognition by strange cults, fundamentalists etc) is founded on the teachings of Jesus, and if one reads all the Gospels, one will not find any mention therein of torture, cruelty or savagery recommended as a remedy for 'possession'. I wholeheartedly agree that many many evil acts have been committed by people who maintained they were Christian . But they cannot have been. And I would venture that most religions are comprised chiefly of good people. Wickedness exists, but not only within religious groups, and even then, only in a tiny proportion of adherents. |
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02 Mar 12 - 02:45 PM (#3316232) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: GUEST,CS Describing particular acts or beliefs as 'primitive' is not the same as referring to a race of people as 'primitives'. |
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02 Mar 12 - 03:31 PM (#3316250) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Jack Campin BBC background story The interesting thing is that the witchcraft belief system is a nice little earner for some of these churches. Label kids as witches and dun the parents for exorcizing them. Walking round Hackney, it looks much like a Third World market, except the product on sale from all those attic, basement and lockup garage churches is religion rather than dried fish, vegetables and printed fabric. Like any trade, the God business has reasons that make good bottom-line sense for exploitation and occasional murder. And it gets bloody boring hearing that damn stupid "those people aren't Christians in the true sense of the word" crap over and again. They ARE Christians. Monstrously evil ones. They belief in Jesus, read the Bible, belong to a church that can trace its line of descent all the way back to Christ and the Apostles. That's what a Christian IS. |
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02 Mar 12 - 05:20 PM (#3316295) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Peter K (Fionn) CS and Eliza are probably right, at least to the extent that this case was more about a lust for power (note that two other victims escaped the worst by saying what their tormentors wanted to hear) and gratuitous cruelty than about Christianity. It might be good if more people cut the same slack for moderate muslims (the vast majority). It doesn't alter my view that magic and superstitions are the best tools we have for systemic exploitation of the vulnerable, and often remain useful after they've evolved into religions. There will be a lot less depravity when we've all progressed beyond believing palpable nonsense. |
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02 Mar 12 - 05:21 PM (#3316296) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Wesley S "That's what a Christian IS." Jack - you're so clueless that it's not worth it to try and change your mind. And you forgot to mention the Spanish Inquisition. |
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02 Mar 12 - 06:09 PM (#3316314) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Peter K (Fionn) Wesley (and like-minded others), if someone confesses the Christian faith - believes in a god who sacrificed his son to himself to the end that all who truly beleve should not perish but have everlasting life etc - who are you to cast judgment and say that such a person is not a Christian? |
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02 Mar 12 - 06:48 PM (#3316329) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Joe Offer Damn, Peter, and all this time I thought it was Roman soldiers that crucified Jesus.... In an attempt to rationalize your bigotry, you're twisting things pretty damn far. Face it, Peter, it isn't fair to blame this horrible event on Christians. To blame the whole group for the actions of a few, is bigotry, plain and simple. Most Christians deplore any sort of violence done in the name of their faith. Why blame them for the actions of a few extremists? Because....that's the name of the game, in the game of bigotry. -Joe- |
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02 Mar 12 - 06:55 PM (#3316333) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: GUEST,Bluesman There are many reasons why people believe Jesus existed, the biggest one is faith. Faith does not take into account facts. To this day there has been no hard evidence found that Jesus Christ even exisited. There's no evidence that Nazareth even existed at the time that people claim Jesus did. There are 133 different years that people have claimed he was born and every month of the year has been claimed to be the month he was born at one time or another. The Gospel of Mark, The Gospel of Luke, The Gospel of John and The Gospel of Matthew are the first writings that were ever discovered (in the Bible) about Jesus and they were written at least 70 years after Jesus was said to have died. If you want to consider that evidence you can, but science and history won't. Any proof he was crucifed ? |
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02 Mar 12 - 07:35 PM (#3316359) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Joe Offer Well, let's see....scholars date Mark about 70 AD, Matthew and Luke in the 80s, and John in the late 90s....so "at least 70 years" after the death of Jesus is a little off. But in general, I don't care to getting into matters of "proof" and argument. It accomplishes nothing. I'll leave that to Christian literalists like Iona in the Creationism thread, and I'll stay as far away from that kind of stuff as I can. I guess I'm convinced it isn't possible to carry on a discussion at Mudcat of anything with religious implications. The subject seems to bring out the worst in people. -Joe- |
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02 Mar 12 - 08:02 PM (#3316367) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: katlaughing Amen to that, Joe, no pun intended. It's too bad, too, because some people here have posted very interesting viewpoints. I esp. would like to thank Eliza for recounting her experience and background. Anyone up for a "coexist" bumper sticker? |
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02 Mar 12 - 08:18 PM (#3316377) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: GUEST,Bluesman Well if you get comfort from it and it helps you get through life, then it's good for you. Don't even try to justify it to others. I did have one major psychological/emotional change in my life many years ago (improvised explosive device went off in my face) a chaplain used to visit me a lot in the hospital. I have to say, the conviction he had to his faith impressed me. I am not a religious person, but this guy was a good person, he never treated me as a clinical case like the others, much he said then stuck with me to this day. It is down to the individual Joe. You don't have to justify yourself to others. |
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02 Mar 12 - 08:27 PM (#3316385) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Joe Offer Well, whatever the case, I agree with Jeri that this is an issue of torture and murder, not religion and not witchcraft. Instead of pointing the finger of blame at one group or another, people of good will need to unite in opposition to the injustice that occurred. Time and time again in discussions here, groups are blamed for things they would never, ever approve. Nobody in his right mind approves or condones torture, murder, abuse, or any sort of crime. In almost every situation, it's foolhardy to blame a group for the crimes of a few members. -Joe- |
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02 Mar 12 - 08:37 PM (#3316392) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Jack Campin Christians who won't admit that the witch-persecutors are *their own* are perpetuating the problem. Somebody does something monstrous? - Oh nothing to do with us, they were never Christians to begin with, you can't expect us to have seen it coming or done anything about it, can you? In this case the pastors of those London African churches *should* have seen it coming. It was well known what the witch-persecuting ideology stood for. As the author of that BBC article pointed out: that murder would not have happened in Kinshasa, because the community is more open and people know what their neighbours are up to. But there's no excuse for them not realizing that London was different and anticipating what their ideology would turn into in a city of isolated flat dwellers with minimal family networks. I grew up in New Zealand with Seventh Day Adventist neighbours. They seemed a bit stuffy and clannish but not otherwise all that weird. I got to meet some of their network of relatives, some of them missionaries in the Pacific, and read some of their literature. It was rather obsessional about things I couldn't see as very important and a bit preoccupied with impending doom, but they managed to get on with their lives without the millenarian stuff getting in the way. Now transport the same ideology to a totally isolated community with no outside ideas and information to provide reality checks. You end up with the Branch Davidians - a few hundred people progressively edged into organizing their own apocalypse. They were part of a larger church which had simply washed its hands of them. Nothing to do with us. Not Christians, never were. BTW Muslims deal with this rather more honestly. Very few advocates of repulsive ideologies with criminal repercussions ever get categorized as ipso facto non-Muslim. They are more often seen as genuine Muslims creating a problem. Which offers a route for some sort of dialogue that you don't get with the Christian response of simply cutting deviant fractions out of the community because they're embarrassing. |
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02 Mar 12 - 10:28 PM (#3316441) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Peter K (Fionn) Joe, it looks like I wasn't clear enough. First off, the post of mine you answered related to a very specific point. The perps in this case described themselves as Christians and it seems reasonable to establish by what rationale other Christians find it safe to disown them. (If they repented now of what they did to Kristy Bamu, but continued to believe that children could be possessed of the devil, would you then readmit them to the faith?) Second, I had said only two posts earlier: CS and Eliza are probably right, at least to the extent that this case was more about a lust for power (note that two other victims escaped the worst by saying what their tormentors wanted to hear) and gratuitous cruelty than about Christianity. It might be good if more people cut the same slack for moderate muslims (the vast majority). On your argument that "this is an issue of torture and murder, not religion and not witchcraft." anyone who followed the case would say it was, beyond doubt, about all four. (Here you need to understand that in the US "witchcraft" has lately taken on a different meaning from the long-established one still accepted in Europe and Africa, as I think CS explained.) I made the point earlier in the thread that what happened to Kristy went beyond anything previously recorded in Africa or London. But you need to recognise that brutal abuse of children, by declared Christians in the name of kindoki, is widespread in western Africa, DRC and in small fundamentalist Christian churches in areas of London which have communities of west African immigrants. As for who crucified Jesus, I'd better give warning of thread drift.... I think you're right, Joe. It was the Romans wot done it. But only so the scriptures (Isaiah 53) could be fulfilled, remember? So you could say the Romans were God's puppets: "For God so loved the World that he gave his only begotten Son to the end that all who truly believe...." Yep, without Jesus's sacrifice, God would not have been willing to forgive us our sins. (Check out 1 Corinthians 15 and various references in Acts, eg 3:18.) According to your first pope, in his first pentecostal homily (Acts 2), God knew in advance that Jesus had a sticky fate ahead of him. And Jesus himself told his friends that a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do - later railing at his all-powerful dad for forsaking him. All of which, Joe, is taken from Catholic teaching. It is what Catholics (and indeed I think all Christians) are supposed to believe. |
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03 Mar 12 - 01:22 AM (#3316498) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Joe Offer Like I say, it's impossible to carry on a reasonable discussion at Mudcat, of anything that has religious implications. Jack, the point of the matter is that it makes no difference whether the torture/murderers were Christian, Muslim, or Purple People Eaters. The group they belong to, did not commit the crimes. Christians as a whole have no reason to take responsibility for what these criminals did. Now, if these people belong to a sect of Christianity that promotes torture of "witches," then that particular sect has responsibility. But I have no more connection to these people than anyone else here has. Why should I be required to acknowledge these criminals as "my own"?? Persecuting witches is certainly not part of my faith. Interestingly, you can get away with blaming a religious group for what these people have done. If you were blame their ethnic or racial group, all hell would break loose. The lesson: don't blame the group for the crimes of a few members of that group. The Guardian has a pretty good opinion piece about this incident. This crime was child abuse. Child abuse happens in all sectors of society, and the abusers hide behind their religion or need for discipline or any number of factors. But it's the abusers who are to blame, not the excuses they hide behind. -Joe- |
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03 Mar 12 - 02:17 AM (#3316508) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Keith A of Hertford Well said Joe. Thanks Eliza. |
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03 Mar 12 - 02:52 AM (#3316512) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: MGM·Lion ·····Christianity as set out in the New Testament (not as twisted out of all recognition by strange cults, fundamentalists etc) is founded on the teachings of Jesus, and if one reads all the Gospels, one will not find any mention therein of torture, cruelty or savagery recommended as a remedy for 'possession'..... ,.,., Whatever Jesus may have recommended, Eliza, as the 'treatment', he did believe that madness was caused by demonic "possession" ~~ Gadarene Swine? ~M~ |
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03 Mar 12 - 03:27 AM (#3316519) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Joe Offer ...and with that statement, Michael, you are playing the same game as the fundamentalist Christians - an obsessive quest to possess the "truth," whatever that is. Maybe it's having a loving and generous heart that's important, not being able to prove oneself right and others wrong. -Joe- |
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03 Mar 12 - 03:32 AM (#3316521) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Penny S. When I was teaching, the populations of children from abroad in our classes changed over the years, in particular, black children were more likely to come from Africa than the Caribbean. I was made aware of the differences in belief on one occasion when, after reading a story I felt quite innocent in which there was a character who was a witch, a mother asked me, very strongly, not to do so again, as "we believe these people exist". I can't remember if it was a folk story, or one of Diana Wynne Jones novels, but obviously the child had been disturbed and gone home to share their feelings. I was taken aback. I don't believe that the family concerned would have been involved in any thing like these dreadful events, which I was not aware of at the time. I put it in my mental list of family attitudes which are a nuisance, as in the case of the Mormons who did not want me to mention evolution, the JWs who did not want any celebrations of anything, the Exclusive Brethren who did not want their children to be in IT lessons, or the current one, the mother who does not want me to ask her daughter to use more than one float in the swimming pool. (At least some of them did not want to dictate what was made available to the whole class.) I think I might have felt differently in the light of these recent cases. It looks as though the word "witch" and its derivatives is being used as a translation of something quite different from either European or modern usage, and has more in common with European beliefs about changelings. Expecially when you look at the ways people tried to deal with such children. These are not adults who have entered into an activity by choice, but children who are victims of something external. My feeling, to say irritably, "O grow up" has to be inappropriate, because a whole tranche of cultural and religious beliefs have to be dealt with gently. Perhaps we need to say something like the legal conclusion that once he had breathed English air, a slave was free. When you come to Britain, you do not do this. It is not our culture, and here, you adopt ours in this matter. Like FGM. It doesn't happen. I find myself drifting towards the right. Oh dear. Next thing I will be moaning about political correctness gone mad. Penny |
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03 Mar 12 - 03:44 AM (#3316526) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: GUEST,CS I think it is important to consider the role that *collective* religious belief (in this instance fundamentalist Christian) may have in such cases. While I would doubt that any but a psychopath or a Sadist would take their religious beliefs so far as to torture children to death on the basis of them, what such faith and religious dogma does DO do is legitimise and enable nutters and Sadists to do so. Much similar could be said of Hopkins and his ilk during the European witchcraze, who *utilsed* religiously instilled fear of the supernatural in the common folk and religious doctrine ("thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" etc.) to freely perpetrate crimes of torture and murder of great numbers of innocent people. |
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03 Mar 12 - 04:21 AM (#3316531) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Penny S. When I learn of these events, I truly hope that there is an afterlife. If atheism is correct, that the victims of this sort of thing (and in Homs, etc) have so appalling an end to their existence doesn't bear thinking of. Penny |
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03 Mar 12 - 05:23 AM (#3316540) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Jack Campin This crime was child abuse. Child abuse happens in all sectors of society, and the abusers hide behind their religion or need for discipline or any number of factors. But it's the abusers who are to blame, not the excuses they hide behind. The "excuses" make different kinds of criminality possible. What happened to that kid required (a) a psychopath (b) an ideology that he could use to validate what he was doing and (c) an anomic urban environment that put no check on his actions. The ideology alone leads to consequences like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ronaldsay_child_abuse_scandal In that case the ideology was the "satanic ritual abuse" scare, an American Christian middle-class professional version of the Kindoki panic. Nobody involved in that was prone to murderous violence, and the world of social work is big enough that nobody could have got away with physical torture. But the effects were bad enough. |
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03 Mar 12 - 05:46 AM (#3316544) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Penny S. I have information at a few removes on that. A young member of our Friends Meeting in Kent was at university with a sibling of one of the secondary families, which was Quaker, concerned. The sibling was not at home when the raid took place. The sibling was not allowed to contact the rest of the children from that family, nor was allowed to give evidence or be interviewed by the social workers. Since the assumption should have been that, if true, that sibling would have been either a victim or involved in the abuse, that was odd. Other stupidities were the local police believing that Quakers meeting in a circle was indicative of witchcraft, and the banning of the sending of Easter cards or messages, not only by family, but also by others in the Friends, as these could contain trigger images to control the children. (As I vaguely recall the discussion in Meeting, this may have even applied if no message was written. I think we sent something, and I think it was intercepted.) It occurs to me that the areas of Africa where these activities have become apparent are also those where American evangelism has been active in stirring up violent opposition to homosexuals. It was American evangelism that influenced the social workers to identify not only Quakers as dangerous, but also the Church of Scotland. Didn't someone once say something about divided houses? Penny |
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03 Mar 12 - 07:27 AM (#3316564) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: GUEST,Eliza Jesus did indeed 'cast out devils' (probably dealing with the mentally ill) but never by means of physical violence, torture or abuse. He merely commanded the 'demon' to depart. The Gadarene swine ran over the cliff of their own accord, I don't remember Jesus telling them to do so. It's quite true that peoples with a primitive mindset, (NOT a racist comment!) and living in abject poverty, are very easily exploited and manipulated for gain. They seek (in my limited experiences in Africa) to explain the myriad misfortunes which beset them in supernatural terms. Thus any wicked person looking for a means to make money can pretend to 'know' the source of the 'sorcery' and this is implicitly believed. My husband's poor mother, a devout Muslim, took her dying son Suleyman to a 'marabou' (a kind of witchcraft/sorcery exponent) and paid him her last few coins, He affirmed that someone had put a spell on the boy, and maintained he could remove it. Later the boy's conditon worsened and his father took him too the local (paying) hospital. No-one is admitted there without payment, but they had nothing, so joined the folk on their knees in front of the passing doctors, literally begging and clutching at their white coats for their help. No doctor responded, and the boy died there on the floor after THREE DAYS of agony. (It sounded like palcifarum malaria, he was delirious and screaming with the pain in his head. He was fifteen years old.) I tell this true story to illustrate the dire conditions in some places, and the desperate beliefs and practices resorted to. Faced with this need, the 'witchdoctors' and 'exorcists' have the people in the palms of their hands. If they promise to 'remove the evil' some folk will accept any bizarre or extreme 'remedy' and pay handsomely for it. So poverty and ignorance (those two fearsome children in 'A Christmas Carol')are to blame, and not religion per se. |
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03 Mar 12 - 08:42 AM (#3316578) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Peter K (Fionn) Informative and persuasive Eliza. You are absolutely right. I would just add that ignorance (not meant pejoratively) breeds magic, superstition and religion, usually in that order. |
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03 Mar 12 - 10:44 AM (#3316622) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: GUEST,Ian Mather sans cookie Joe is right. Discussing religion can bring out the worst in people, myself included. However, it could be that what you have to say might not be palatable to some whilst common sense to others? The problem is; if a nice person says and does nice things and claims their Christianity makes them a nice person, and a twisted criminal says their crimes were a Christian act, I suppose the nice person will disown them and their take on Christinity. But to an onlooker, which is the Christian? Joe mentions another thread where a couple of people are arguing for the literal interpretation of the bible, the flood happened etc. One of them said you had to believe or you are not a Christian. How can I automatically dismiss that and agree with those who say it is a metaphor? One has to be wrong, but just because one comes over as more rational, doesn't make them the automatic winner? |
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03 Mar 12 - 12:34 PM (#3316681) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Paul Burke you are playing the same game as the fundamentalist Christians - an obsessive quest to possess the "truth," whatever that is. There's a subtle difference between trying to find a better approximation to the "truth" from the evidence, and insisting that what you already have is the "truth" irrespective of any evidence. |
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03 Mar 12 - 01:26 PM (#3316717) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: GUEST,CS Thanks to Eliza for the first hand account of your experiences within Africa and with African culture. I think you've made some exceedingly valuable contributions to this thread. However I would personally think it a serious omission not to consider BOTH the contributions of extremist Christian religious dogma AND West African immigrant cultural belief and practice in these cases of child abuse. To say "all child abuse is the same" is false. All child abuse is obviously deplorable, whatever culture/class/ethnicity such abuse occurs in (including of course atheist white middle-class homes), yet to dismiss out of hand as somehow irrelevant, the cultural, ethnic and religious contexts which give rise to distinct groups of cases, is to diminish our understanding of such cases which inevitably results in a diminished ability to intervene effectively in order to prevent future examples of the same. |
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03 Mar 12 - 01:29 PM (#3316718) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Jim Carroll "Joe is right. Discussing religion can bring out the worst in people, myself included" The problem is that we hardly ever "discuss religion" on this forum, rather the effect that religion on our lives and society - terrorist religious extremism, clerical child abuse and now, it would appear, witchcraft. If only the various churches confined their role to the spititual..... Refreshing to see the early effort to turn this subject into a 'racefast' appears to heve been nipped in the bud. Jim Carroll |
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03 Mar 12 - 02:38 PM (#3316747) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: GUEST,Eliza As with cases of exorcism, FGM, 'honour' killing, forced marriages, wife-beating etc etc, some immigrants commit the most ghastly crimes and abuses when in the West. But I feel that in order to stamp this out and prevent the suffering of the vulnerable, it is wise to try and understand ( but not subscribe to) the beliefs, religions and cultures behind the acts. And Education is the key. (There speaks a lifelong teacher!) In one generation it should be possible to change views and remove superstitions, if the youngsters are influenced by more modern standards. Even in Africe this is happening, thank goodness. Twenty years ago, (in Ivory Coast) my six sisters-in-law were seized by their uncle and several aunts, and pinned to the floor while a neighbour removed everything external in an infibulation operation, using a rusty razorblade and no anaesthesia. My husband remembers their screams. (I often wonder how the sixth felt, having waited until it was her turn.) They have all had children of their own, and none of their daughters have undergone FGM. They have also all chosen their own husbands, rather than have marriage forced on them. This excellent change is due to education, Government programmes and a more modern view of Islam. One wonders how a loving parent could inflict such agony on a child, but millions have and do, because they believe it is necessary. A combination of stringent law-enforcement and education should win through (IMO) |
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03 Mar 12 - 11:39 PM (#3316949) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: MGM·Lion "Joe is right" says everyone, re his remark that discussing religion can bring out the worst in everyone: "myself included," he adds frankly. Which I suppose might explain why I can make nor heads nor tails of his response to my last post on this thread, where I simply pointed out a certain fact in re the dicta & personal beliefs of Jesus ~~ whereupon he leapt upon me in tear·limb·from·limb mode with incomprehensible accusation of fundamentalism which I can in no wise fathom. ~M~ refs: 3 Mar, 0252, 0357 AM |
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04 Mar 12 - 03:02 AM (#3316982) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Joe Offer Michael, I'm questioning your statement that Jesus "did believe that madness was caused by demonic "possession" " In other words, Jesus and the people of his time personified what we consider in more abstract terms. So, yeah, Jesus was not well-versed in the scientific terminology of our current enlightened age. So you've proved him wrong, just as the fundamentalists prove others wrong by demanding that all talk and think only in their terms. There are gentler ways to carry on a discussion - by seeking to understand the perspectives of others, instead of constantly seeking to refute them. But in general, Mike, I think you're a good guy, one of those with the "generous and loving heart" that I spoke of above. -Joe- |
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04 Mar 12 - 03:24 AM (#3316987) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: MGM·Lion Thanks Joe. My purpose was in no way intended ideologically, but was simply to put the belief into its historical context as something universally believed for a long time. My point was really no more than that Jesus would have believed that because everybody believed it at the time ~~ and indeed continued to do so up to comparatively modern times [early C19, say] ~ whence the tradition of the whip & dark room treatment for the mad, so familiar from 16-17C drama in plays like Middleton's The Changeling and Shakespeare's Twelfth Night, which was intended to make their bodies so uncomfortable that the demon would not wish to remain in it. I intended no particular moral or ideological conclusion to be drawn from this, but was simply endeavouring to postulate it as believed, just as disease was long believed to reside in the blood so that blood-letting was regarded as a universal cure-all. We no longer believe either of these things, and know them to be not merely wrong but to have been entirely harmful & mischievous in their effects: and therefore regret that hangovers of such errors might persist in enclaves like certain fundamentalist sects in Africa or elsewhere, with the sort of baleful results as the incident that forms the topic of this thread That was all of my point. ~M~ |
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04 Mar 12 - 04:38 AM (#3317004) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Penny S. When I read stories of changelings, and what was done to bring back the real child, I saw that there must have been many horrific deaths in the past, due to that belief. Penny |
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04 Mar 12 - 06:20 AM (#3317026) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Jim Carroll "When I read stories of changelings" Look up the Bridget Cleary incident - a horrific story with political undertones - look out for the books, 'The Burning of Bridget Cleary - for the story, a darker look at superstition, and 'The Cooper's Wife is Missing' for the political repercussions. Jim Carroll |
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04 Mar 12 - 08:41 AM (#3317065) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Jim Carroll There is a tendency to place witchcraft in the dim and distant past and/or the work of "black savagees", especially by those who would use it to belabour those of different colours or cultures as being "in error's chain". The last British witch trial took place in 1944 when Helen Duncan was jailed for 9 months having been found guilty of "conspiracy, fraud and witchcraft" The charge of witchcraft in Britain was not removed from the statute books until 1951 - glass houses - stones, maybe? http://www.helenduncan.org.uk/ Jim Carroll |
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04 Mar 12 - 08:51 AM (#3317067) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Jack Campin Accusations of witchcraft have been the subject of legal process in the UK and the USA much more recently than that. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_ritual_abuse The names may have changed a bit and the proceedings more often use the pretext and legal machinery of "child protection" but it's the same (primarily Christian) myth system at work. |
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04 Mar 12 - 09:31 AM (#3317083) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Jim Carroll Thanks for the update Jack - scratch a civilisation...... Despite persistant petitioning an appeal to postumously pardon Helen Duncan was refused in 2008 - not sure of the state of play today. Jim Carroll |
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04 Mar 12 - 11:25 AM (#3317126) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Keith A of Hertford You would have to go back a lot of centuries to find a case anything like this. Anyone, never mind a child, killed by violent acts of exorcism. This death results from beliefs current in parts of Africa. All the people involved are from Africa. Those beliefs predate the arrival of Christianity to Africa. They were certainly not brought to Africa by Christian missionaries. The beliefs have been bolted on to Christianity in the same way some Pagan rituals have become part of Western Christianity (mistletoe, holly, Easter eggs, equinoctial and solstice festivals). |
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04 Mar 12 - 11:41 AM (#3317132) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: GUEST,Eliza I agree, Keith. It seems to me that these witchcraft and sorcery ideas and beliefs have been practised for maybe thousands of years in Africa, long long before Christianity even emerged. They're so deeply ingrained in the mindset of most Africans, although without much in the way of written history, we cannot know for sure. Many peoples throughout the world have bolted on Christianity to their existing more primitive credos, for example in South America, where sacrifice of chickens and voodoo-type 'trance' practices exist in tandem with Roman Catholicism. It's astonishing that even today, most young people in W. Africa still fear the world of sorcery and spells, while happily using the local 'cyber' computers to go online, and texting their friends on their mobiles! That's why, although education is the remedy, it will take time for modern ideas to filter into their deepest and most firmly-held beliefs. |
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04 Mar 12 - 04:14 PM (#3317227) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Jim Carroll "Anyone, never mind a child, killed by violent acts of exorcism." Depends on what you mean by "exorcism" and "centuries" is a nonsense. Violence, often in an extreme form, was the basis of discipline in the Industial Schools of Ireland to at least the middle of the 20th century - not the formalistic ritual of exorcism, it is true, but "beating the devil/evil out" of the pupils was a fairly common phrase, still remembered and quoted by victims. There is no doubt that deaths occured due to such violence; we'll probably never know how many, the Ryan Report said as much. The film, 'Raggy Boy' was based on author and poet Patrick Galvin's experiances in Daingean industrial school, Co Offaly, noted for its abuse of young people in its care. It is to take a somewhat shaky high ground to suggest that Africa is solely to blame for ritual religious abuse. It is certainly true that ritual killing through exorcism predates the arrival of christianity to Africa, just as it is true that ritual killing was part of the Christian religion long before the discovery of Africa. As for Christian killing in general 76 people (24 of them British nationals) died during the Waco seige in 1993, including more than 20 children and two pregnant women. In 1978 at the instructions of Pastor Jim Jones, there was a mass suicide of 913 Temple members in Jonestown, Guyana along with the killings of five other people at a nearby airstrip. Over 200 children were murdered at Jonestown, almost all of whom were forcibly made to ingest cyanide by the elite Temple members. Jonestown was among the largest mass suicides in history. Jim Carroll |
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04 Mar 12 - 04:54 PM (#3317244) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Paul Burke It seems to me that these witchcraft and sorcery ideas and beliefs have been practised for maybe thousands of years in Europe, long long before Christianity even emerged. They're so deeply ingrained in the mindset of most Europeans, My deliberate changes, to illustrate that most Europeans believed those things for two hundred years after the Reformation. Read history- to forget it is to risk repeating it. |
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04 Mar 12 - 05:13 PM (#3317263) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Keith A of Hertford Depends on what you mean by "exorcism" and "centuries" is a nonsense. By "exorcism" I mean the driving out of evil spirits from someone. What else does it mean? If you can give any examples of someone dying in UK from an act or acts of exorcism in recent centuries I would like to see it. |
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04 Mar 12 - 05:34 PM (#3317276) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Jack Campin Not very difficult to google for that, is it? http://whatstheharm.net/exorcisms.html (lots of links from there) http://www.saff.ukhq.co.uk/everyman1.htm |
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04 Mar 12 - 05:38 PM (#3317278) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Paul Burke Why limit it to the UK? Apart from the obvious suggestion that abroad is beastly (To which I fully subscribe - but with the rider that here is beastly too)- it's all too common, search for youself or make them into links- http://www.metro.co.uk/news/37963-priest-jailed-over-nuns-exorcism-death http://english.pravda.ru/hotspots/crimes/13-01-2011/116511-exorcism-0/ |
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04 Mar 12 - 06:18 PM (#3317305) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Richard Bridge Now we are really seeing the reason for this thread being started, aren't we? |
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05 Mar 12 - 02:04 AM (#3317423) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Keith A of Hertford Yes Richard. An opportunity to attack both Christians and Britain. |
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05 Mar 12 - 03:34 AM (#3317433) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Jim Carroll "Now we are really seeing the reason for this thread being started, aren't we? " Aren't we just Richard? Well done Keith - in the space of two postings you have managed to turn the subject of this thread from a discussion of the evil effect of primitive religious practices (by all religions and present in all cultures) to a racist attack on "Africans" - and your defence, once again - "anti Britishism". If you are claiming that exorcism is the domain of only the immigrant population in Britain - try these, or flick though the rising number of television channels which are regularly presenting "filmed evidence" of ghosties and goulies and things that go bump in the night www.dailymail.co.uk/.../Popes-exorcist-squads-wage-war-Satan.html www.exorcisms.co.uk/ http://www.newsmonster.co.uk/paranormal-unexplained/thought-exorcism-was-dead-think-again.html http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2001/may/02/socialcare.mentalhealth1 http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_7042/is_2_125/ai_n28757387/ This has nothing whatever to do with race - it is a religious phenonmenon and is taking place throughout Britain and America. I have no intention of turning this thread into one of our dialogues and driving everybody else away - address your twisted ideas to everybody here, not me. Jim Carroll |
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05 Mar 12 - 04:47 AM (#3317442) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Richard Bridge I don't think Keith originated the underlying thought. |
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05 Mar 12 - 05:39 AM (#3317477) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Keith A of Hertford Well done Keith - in the space of two postings you have managed to turn the subject of this thread from a discussion of the evil effect of primitive religious practices (by all religions and present in all cultures) to a racist attack on "Africans" No I have not. The incident in the title and the OP happens to be about some people from Africa. That is all. |
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05 Mar 12 - 06:07 AM (#3317497) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Jim Carroll "No I have not." "All the people involved are from Africa. Those beliefs predate the arrival of Christianity to Africa. They were certainly not brought to Africa by Christian missionaries." "I don't think Keith originated the underlying thought." No - I don't either, but the earlier perps slunk back into their caves - he made it an "African" issue Keith doesn't have an orginal thought that he hasn't cut-n-pasted Jim Carroll |
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05 Mar 12 - 06:12 AM (#3317499) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Keith A of Hertford Which quotes of mine are a. wrong, and/or b. racist? Please be specific, because I am certain they are not. |
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05 Mar 12 - 09:30 AM (#3317613) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: GUEST,leeneia "Tests found Kristy, who was singled out after wetting his pants, had suffered 130 injuries and that he had drowned in the bath during a final ritual of deliverance." A 15-year-old who wet his pants? Who didn't have enough guile to admit to witchcraft and go along with his 'purification'? There was something wrong with the boy, and they wanted to get rid of him. Ya'll are being gulled by the media's 'frosting on the cake,' - the witchcraft element and the fact they were Africans. Actually, this is an old, old story. Woman gets boyfriend. Boyfriend resents woman's child (in this case, brother) by another man. Man kills child. It happens somewhere every week. The witchcraft story is merely hypocrisy or deception. The lesson here applies to all of us. If you have a child or grandchild whose father is gone, and the mother takes a new boyfriend, watch that child like a hawk. |
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05 Mar 12 - 10:48 AM (#3317654) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: GUEST,CS With respect, I think Leenia that you are incorrect, as both the first hand accounts of Eliza in this thread and the briefest of internet searches reveals: "Because of the increasing hardship many children end up living with members of their extended family, and a phenomenon which experts say is unique to Congo is developing. Children are being accused of sorcery and chucked onto the streets. The unlucky ones are murdered by their own family members before they escape. Which is why Ikomba and Luwuabisa are in such danger. For now, their parents are not completely certain of their diagnosis. So they take them to a sect to find the real truth. It is there that the story starts to get really frightening. Prophet Onokoko has drawn more than 200 children to his sect The sect - run by a free-thinking Congolese Bible teacher called Prophet Onokoko - has 230 children on its books. All are accused of witchcraft. Many have been thrown out of their family homes. All will have to undergo some kind of ritual exorcism to expunge the evil spirits." That story from the Congo by the BBC is over a decade old. At the time of writing, it states that according to experts this particular phenomenon "is unique to the Congo". Now these beliefs about 'witch children' (or 'changelings' if you will) and 'exorcism' practices are becoming more common in the UK among African immigrant communities. These children (as Eliza explained) are being used as scapegoats for social ills such as sickness or disease in poor African communities. While in the UK (as one story highlighted) such children so branded, might become the focus of an African immigrants paranoia about not being allowed to remain in the UK. |
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05 Mar 12 - 10:59 AM (#3317662) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: GUEST,CS Congo witch-hunt's child victims Apologies, link to quoted BBC article of Dec. 1999, above. |
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05 Mar 12 - 11:16 AM (#3317675) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: GUEST,CS Wherever there are particular problems emerging within an immigrant community in the UK I like to look for what that community are doing to combat such problems within their community themselves, because they usually are and this instance is no different. I thought this a constructive response to this phenomenon from AFRUACA (Africans unite against Child Abuse) and perhaps others following this thread might find it of interest: AFRUCA calls for the Criminalisation of the Branding of Children as Witches |
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05 Mar 12 - 01:07 PM (#3317732) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: GUEST,CS Something has been bothering me in this thread, and I've realised what it is. It is the amount of people contributing who wish to divorce the case(es) in question from thjeir complex and interconnected contexts. Initially a rebuff occurred from those angered by the association to (beliefs involving) 'witchcraft'. Then came others denying the role of Christian religion. Then others angered by the references to African culture and belief. Have I missed anyone? I tell what, I'm pissed off. There are too many people primarily interested in arguing for their preferred political agenda on this this thread and too few genuinely interested in learning more about how to end this particular phenomena of child abuse in the UK can be countered. Thank heaven orgs. like AFRUCA exist! |
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05 Mar 12 - 01:45 PM (#3317757) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Richard Bridge I think, Crow Sister, you did not hear the dogwhistle. |
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05 Mar 12 - 02:28 PM (#3317780) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: GUEST,CS Richard, I've no idea what that means! But I'm fairly sure than anyone attempting to summon me with a dog-whistle would subsequently find said whistle firmly embedded somewhere far harder to blow, than it was previously. |
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05 Mar 12 - 04:05 PM (#3317830) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Jim Carroll CS With respect – please treat us gently; some of us are walking wounded of the stomach-heaving 'Muslim Prejudice' thread where a member of this forum (still gracing us with his with his presence on this thread) virtually single-handedly turned the fate of sexually abused young women into a glorious 'Paki-bashing' fest by accusing 'every male British Pakistan' of being a potential paedophile by way of their "cultural implant". There are signs that he is prepared to repeat his performance here; this time using the horrific death of a 15 year old child to attack "Africans" (he hasn't specified which particular "Africans" – Algerians, Botswanans, Congolese, Dahomians, Ethiopians.... (I'm sure you get the idea), so we can only assume he means to make the entire African continent his target. Speaking for myself – I believe this tragic affair to be a religious rather than racial incident, so, unless you are prepared to show me the error of my ways in believing that exorcism as a form of abuse and other forms of religious extremism, is an international phenomenon, I suggest you leave me to my "political agenda". I'll let you into a secret – I'm pissed off too – of being bombarded with racist garbage by a seasoned bigot. Jim Carroll |
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05 Mar 12 - 04:20 PM (#3317839) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: GUEST,CS Jim, I think basically we/none of us are truly able to discuss this topic here on the Mudcat. It's a really sad thing. |
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05 Mar 12 - 05:05 PM (#3317861) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Jim Carroll "Jim, I think basically we/none of us are truly able to discuss this topic here on the Mudcat." I think it's a sadder thing that we are unable to discuss topics like this because of the predatory nature of some of the people involved. When I said my piece about the Travellers eviction last year I found that one of the perticipants (I know which one - not a million miles from this thread) had given me a fake Facebook entry Funny old world! Jim Carroll |
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05 Mar 12 - 05:06 PM (#3317862) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Richard Bridge Crow Sister, I suggest you ask a mutual friend to give you my email and when I hear from you I will enlighten you. |
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05 Mar 12 - 06:45 PM (#3317906) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Peter K (Fionn) Leeneia, Kristy wet himself because he was denied access to the usual facilities. In your book I suppose that means he was mad as a hatter. What a pity you weren't on hand to advise the court on that important, and hitherto overlooked, factor. |
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05 Mar 12 - 10:17 PM (#3317972) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Joe Offer In the Catholic Church, it's seems that it's only the extreme conservatives who believe in witchcraft and the occult. They get all hot and bothered about how horrible it is. I wonder what they think of the rest of us, who simply don't believe in it and therefore don't care. I've even heard people talking in hushed tones about the occult on Catholic television and radio. The only thought that comes to my mind is, "What a bunch of hooey!" -Joe- |
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06 Mar 12 - 01:38 AM (#3318015) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Keith A of Hertford Jim, my post you claim was anti-African, and quoted from, was 04 Mar 12 - 11:25 AM Eliza was kind enough to say that she agreed with that post, and she is beyond suspicion. You owe us both an apology. Please stick to the debate, not making a case against me, again. This, of all threads, does not require your "nausing it up" again. |
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06 Mar 12 - 04:14 AM (#3318039) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: GUEST Well said Keith A. |
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06 Mar 12 - 04:24 AM (#3318042) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Jim Carroll "Eliza was kind enough to say" Will you please stop using Eliza as a human shield. Do not hide behind other people's statements and try making a few of your own for a change. Whether I agree with her or not, I don't "suspect" Eliza of anything other than of giving an honest opinion - she always has. On the other hand, with your track record, I can't say the same for you. I seem to remember that you hid behind a politician (of all professions) who was "above suspicion" when you made your outrageous "all British Pakistanis" statement. Nobody has all the answers to these questions; that's why we take part in these discussions, otherwise we may as well sit on our hands and wait for the next all-encompassing pronouncement to come along. For somebody who has consistently lied about my personal affiliations, has been caught out in those lies, yet has refused to either withdraw or apologise (see Homs thread) I find a demand for an apology somewhat...... breathtaking, to say the least. "Please stick to the debate" And once more stop skulking behind thread drift and accusations of "anti-British" and ignoring evidence put before you - you are not a forum adjudicator Make your argument - your own argument and not somebody elses. I have asked you that you do not make this another argument between the two of us MAKE YOUR POINTS TO EVERYBODY HERE, NOT JUST MEand let everybody take part. If I am proved wrong, I will concede and apologise if necessary - prove me wrong by making your argument Jim Carroll |
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06 Mar 12 - 04:44 AM (#3318048) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Keith A of Hertford I made some factual, objective statements. Not anti-anyone. Respond to them by all means. Do not bring other threads into this one or make personal attacks. |
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06 Mar 12 - 05:29 AM (#3318059) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: GUEST,CS Jim et al, apologies for my undignified outburst yesterday. I overreacted to a number of comments, which were I'm sure, not intended to diminish or deny in any way the suffering of these children. While I think it is difficult to discuss such topics, I think I should retract my last statement, as of course it's essential to discuss them, even where there may be those who would seek to use the suffering of innocent victims of abuse, to bolster undesirable and divisive ideologies. I saw one post in this thread which was such a blinding example of that, that I preferred not to acknowledge it with a response. Richard, I currently have no active email account I'm afraid (the last became so overwhelmed with Spam that I gave up on it). Otherwise, I trust you are well, and I shall see you no doubt this Summer, whereupon I will endevour to remember to ask for further enlightenment re: dog-whistles. |
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06 Mar 12 - 06:00 AM (#3318067) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Jim Carroll "Do not bring other threads into this one or make personal attacks. " I have done neither - your attitude to race is on record here and on other threads, and everything I have written here is about the subject in hand - the damage that religion can do if used badly or maliciously. As I said, you are not an overseer of this thread - if you wish to be one apply in writing to the Forum Fairy Headquarters CS - no apology necessary, certainly not to someone who loses his rag as much as I do. Jim Carroll |
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06 Mar 12 - 06:52 AM (#3318086) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Musket I suggest everybody reads the mud slinging and irrelevant crap by members above. This thread was supposed to be about awful fatal child abuse, using superstition as the motive to unleash that worst of instinctive human traits, power over others. Instead, the tangents everybody is going off on reflects the similar drift society is guilty of, and then we stand in astonishment when nothing has been done to lessen the risk of such things happening again. We truly are a representative sample of society at large. More interested in claiming somebody else disagrees with you rather than what the disagreement is about. |
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06 Mar 12 - 08:13 AM (#3318125) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Richard Bridge I think you are missing the OP's point - and to show that I am serious I will call you "Mather". |
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06 Mar 12 - 08:16 AM (#3318131) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Jim Carroll Ian Mather is quite right and once again I find myself having to apologise for my part in these stupid arguments - whenever Keith and I find ourselves on the same thread we invariably end up at he opposite end of the spectrum, which always seems to degenerate into a head-to-head between us - can't say it won't happen again, but for me it stops here as far as this thread is concerned. On this subject - there are two alternatives as I see them - that this apalling event is a religious matter and can (and has) happened everywhere and throughout history - this is the explanation as far as I'm concerned. The other is that it is a racial matter brought about by immigrants (from Africa - wherever that is) and has to be treated and cured as such. The danger of accepting the latter is that is is open to abuse by those who would use 'foreigners' as an explanation for all our ills - as indicated here in a number of postings. Jim Carroll |
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06 Mar 12 - 08:38 AM (#3318147) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Keith A of Hertford Good. I can stop refuting your false accusations if you stop making them. |
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06 Mar 12 - 10:05 AM (#3318183) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: GUEST,CS I thought this Guardian article concerning the "toxic" role of Christian belief in current African (principally Congolese) beliefs about witchcraft. It would seem that particular (and thus significant to these cases of violence against children so 'possessed') aspects of African folk belief about witchcraft concerning "possession by spirits", were actually imported from Western Pentecostal missionaries: "In their present form, beliefs in witchcraft are not "traditional" – changes since earlier times are obvious. Modern beliefs see the power of witchcraft as emanating from evil spirits that possess the witch and endow him or her with the power to harm. This belief in possession by evil spirits has been promulgated in Africa by western missionaries of fundamentalist, particularly Pentecostal, Christian beliefs." Furthermore, belief in the possession of *children* in particular by evil spirits also represents a recent change from traditional African folk beliefs about witchcraft. "A recent change is the accusation of children, who may be singled out by parents or other caretaking adults for a variety of reasons that distinguish them from among others in the household: bad dreams, bed-wetting, children who are cleverer or stupider, who have different likes and dislikes – almost anything can be the symptom of a possessing evil spirit. Often, the accused are outsiders – either stepchildren or refugees in the chaotic postwar Congolese state; trafficked children or child soldiers" http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2012/mar/01/witchcraft-curse-africa-kristy-bamu |
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06 Mar 12 - 12:41 PM (#3318263) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: GUEST,CS This piece looks at the modern epidemic of witchcraft accusations in the Democratic republic of Congo, from it's urban roots in mid 1990's DRC to the present. It makes the argument that changes in traditional beliefs about witchcraft and the blurring of boundaries between adult and child roles in society, means the future for great numbers Congolese children, looks no less worrying than at present. http://www.congonova.org/revue/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=186:the-future-of-child-witchcraft-in-drc&catid=36:a "Today, an estimated 50,000 children accused of witchcraft live on the streets of Congo's largest cities. While not all street children (shege) have been accused of practicing sorcery, the majority of these children are believed to possess this dangerous power.[1] Today, witchcraft accusations have reached epidemic proportions in DRC, primarily targeting youth in urban areas (Cimpric 2010; Tate 2006). The accusation of children is a relatively new phenomenon, first appearing in cities in the mid-1990s (de Boeck 2009; Tate 2006; Molina 2006). Before then, it was believed that children could receive witchcraft, but that the power would not reach its full form until adulthood. While adult accusations most often result in ostracism and stigmatization, today's child witches may endure a variety of physical abuses in addition before being sent to an église de réveil (Revivalist Church) for a deliverance ritual or being cast from the home (Molina 2006)." [...] "What is the future of child witchcraft in DRC? Many have suggested that when the economic and social situations improve, églises de réveil will decrease in prominence and children will no longer bear the brunt of witchcraft accusations. While I am certain that improvement in the social situation will decrease the prevalence of accused children, I am hesitant to propose the adoption of such an optimistic view. Children were once believed incapable of possessing witchcraft in its full form, and thus, unable to exercise significant harm through witchcraft. Today, images of the child witch dominate the public imagination. Stories of enfants sorciers with superhuman capabilities fill dialogue within charismatic churches and inspire testimonials in pamphlets and on radio shows dedicated to discussions of good, evil, and the supernatural. People now believe that children can possess witchcraft in its full, destructive form. The elder, widowed witch of villages has a new companion—the child of the streets, equally suited to conduct nefarious activities of the night. Even if the social motivations for accusation improve, children now comprise part of the publicly imagined "witch." I predict children will continue to play a prominent role in the ongoing narrative of what it means to be a witch in Congolese society, as they join in a historical trajectory marked by an increasingly pejorative understanding of the term "witch" and expanding views of who can have the power of witchcraft." |
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06 Mar 12 - 07:35 PM (#3318437) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: GUEST,999 We have created a generation of feral kids. In different places they dress differently or act differently, but make no mistake: they are feral. It is no longer the usual mistrust of youth for adults or the dislike of youth for authority. I first noticed the 'phenomena' about thirty years ago in Kingsway Mall in Edmonton. I hadn't been to that particular mall in about two years. They'd done some construction on it, added pieces on, and I was lost. I saw a group of kids and approached them seeking directions. While walking over I noticed the stares and glares of various adults passing by--directed at the kids. The kids were different, each making his or her statement of independence in terms of dress, hair style, jewelry, meaning boots with steel caps, spiked hair and staples or studs in noses, eyebrows or ears, etc. Anyway, as I approached they seemed to get a group-look of "What the fuck have we done NOW?" I said, "HI. Could you guys and gals please tell me how to find such-and-such a store? I am completely lost." Well, try to listen to seven kids giving you directions all at once. I started laughing and so did they. The male leader of the group and the female leader of the group decided that it would be easier to walk me there, and they did. They managed to bum a few smokes, but we had a decent talk along the way. I made it a habit to go there about once a week, and until I left Edmonton, I'd usually meet a few on my visits. I learned all their names and they called me by mine: Bruce. Nice people. But they had home lives that most of us wouldn't want. These kids aren't our enemies, they are our children, and imo, we have let them down. We have certainly let down this kid, because he died and we had to read about it in some friggin' newspaper. That is tragic. YMMV. |
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07 Mar 12 - 03:00 AM (#3318523) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Jim Carroll ""toxic" role of Christian belief" Religion, not race - or what? Jim Carroll http://religionversusmedicine.blogspot.com/2010/05/christian-medical-fellowship-and.html |
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07 Mar 12 - 03:14 AM (#3318525) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: GUEST,CS "We have certainly let down this kid, because he died and we had to read about it in some friggin' newspaper. That is tragic. YMMV." Absolutely. However, one would hope, that there are lessons to be learned for all involved. According to a number of pieces I've read it would seem that African migrant community in the UK - specifically Congolese migrants, need to learn how to be more open about this subject as it has hitherto, remained unspoken of outside of that community. That is not to say there is any dark conspiracy of silence as such, but that clearly migrant communities tend to hold together, possibly for fear of persecution or ejection by the host nation. There needs to be educational work with Congolese migrants and a focus of care for Congolese children at risk of this kind of abuse - at present there is no system in place here to identify children from different African countries, they are all simply lumped together as "African". There needs to be some kind of crackdown on the crooked faith leaders who provide 'exorcisms' for cash in this country. And as AFRUCA has called for (linked to below) the branding of children as witches, should be criminalised. No doubt many other things too. But that is some of what I have gleaned thus far. |
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07 Mar 12 - 03:39 AM (#3318527) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Keith A of Hertford Why mention race? It is not an issue, why try to make it one? |
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07 Mar 12 - 03:56 AM (#3318531) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: GUEST,CS For what Congolese faith organisations are currently doing to tackle the problem of 'witchcraft' abuse in the Congolese community here in the UK, see this article from an online Christian magazine called "Inspire". It strikes me that as particular beliefs about child possession have been promulgated by fundamentalist Christian missionaries, the Church itself is probably ideally placed to address such dangerous beliefs among Congolese Christians. All supposing the report is accurate of course, the initiative sounds promising: "Congolese churches pledge to protect children from abuse The Congolese Church Pastorship: "must now ensure that its robust new child protection procedures are cascaded down to influence Congolese churches - in the UK, Europe and the rest of the World. In particular, all leaders and children's' workers must now receive appropriate child protection training". That was the message from David Pearson, Executive Director of the Churches' Child Protection Advisory Services (CCPAS) as more than 200 Congolese church leaders gathered in the presence of Children's Minister Beverley Hughes to pledge the best possible protection for the children in their congregations. The pledge - Congolese pastors working together to safeguard our children - was signed at a major event in a church in north London in early June. It was organised by CCPAS in partnership with the Congolese Pastorship UK and was also attended by senior representatives from the Metropolitan Police and the DFES. The Pastorship was founded 18 months ago as a response to allegations of child abuse connected to a small number of churches within the Congolese community. Since then, Congolese church leaders of all denominations have actively been working together with CCPAS, the Metropolitan Police and local authorities to ensure that churches affiliated to the Pastorship provide the optimum protection for their children and encourage churches not yet affiliated to follow their example. Beverley Hughes, Children's Minister said: "This pledge to put a new priority on child protection is a very welcome move from the Congolese Pastorship. I'm very pleased that they have worked so closely with us and the London child protection agencies on this. "It is imperative that we all work together to reduce the risk of harm to children and to ensure that proper action is taken to intervene when necessary. It is the least our children deserve." David Pearson commented: "The Children's Minister has come to see for herself the giant strides that have been made by Congolese churches across the spectrum in terms of developing and implementing the best possible standards of child protection. "In that context, it is essential that the few - very atypical - cases that have arisen are not seen as acceptable by African churches in general - the overwhelming majority of which have no truck whatsoever with child abuse of any description. "Today's pledge-signing event proves that good safeguarding standards are being promoted in Congolese churches and their leaders are being encouraged to work with the statutory agencies wherever there are concerns. In so doing, it is not only beneficial to each and every church involved, but it will help isolate and expose any group that may be in danger of putting children at risk." |
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07 Mar 12 - 05:52 AM (#3318575) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Musket Bridge.. I have looked at the OP and can't quite see your point. The OP is known to have views that certainly provoke debate, but the link is to the subject I was addressing in my last post? I'd like to say I'm being serious too, although that's more to do with the gravity of the subject matter rather than Bridge baiting, which has become difficult since you started agreeing with me on many matters. (Darwin at large - see appropriate thread.) |
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07 Mar 12 - 01:33 PM (#3318777) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: GUEST,CS Mmm, as most of us are subject to a very limited understanding of this phenomena, strikes me we should all ideally endevour to refrain from crude assertions concerning it - and particularly concerning the assignment of blanket blame, which smacks of bigoted and blinkered thinking, whether specifically singling out race, culture OR religion IMO - and most particularly where such assertions are intended to provoke adversarial reactions from others, because that's just crappy. Real children, not ideas, are currently at risk of a specific kind of abuse. I don't like to see them tossed about like hot potatoes who no-one wants to own. |
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07 Mar 12 - 01:59 PM (#3318789) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Jim Carroll "OR religion IMO" Can see and agree with most of your point, but surely religion is difficult to avoid given the "exorcism" involvement Jim Carroll |
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07 Mar 12 - 02:24 PM (#3318809) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: GUEST,CS Jim, I agree that religious belief evidently represents a significant contributing factor. What appears to be the case here, is the "bolting on" (to borrow a phrase used previously) of specific Pentecostal religious beliefs about 'spirit possession' onto pre-existent and popularly held African folk beliefs about witchcraft. As a number of others have articulated both here and in articles available on-line, numerous other factors such as poverty, war-torn crisis in the region and the blurring in adult / child roles within African society, have also contributed to the current epidemic of child witchcraft accusations in DRC (there are currently around 50'000 homeless urban child 'witches', according to one Guardian piece linked to below). Nigeria has also been cited as a country within Africa similarly plagued - though as yet I've to follow up links on stories concerning Nigerian 'witchcraft' one would presume a similar constellation of factors would be involved there also. Despite the fact that one may argue that religion has evidently played a key role in these cases, I feel it would be unhelpful to simply go pointing fingers at "Christianity" per se, particularly where there is evidence to show that faith leaders within the Congolese community in the UK, have long-since mobilised in order to attempt to address this issue. I would suggest that what such groups require is support for their existing endevours, rather than (to borrow a turn of phrase) further witch-hunts. |
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07 Mar 12 - 02:35 PM (#3318817) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: GUEST,CS PS Sorry everyone, I feel like I've begun to dominate this thread. Bee in bonnet... |
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07 Mar 12 - 02:54 PM (#3318822) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: MGM·Lion What appears to be the case here, is the "bolting on" (to borrow a phrase used previously) of specific Pentecostal religious beliefs about 'spirit possession' onto pre-existent and popularly held African folk beliefs about witchcraft. .,,. Re "bolting on" ~~ would not the correct term be'syncresis'? ~M~ |
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07 Mar 12 - 03:11 PM (#3318831) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: GUEST,CS Quite so M - this phenomena represents a modern syncretic set of beliefs involving both traditional African folk beliefs about witchcraft and Christian notions about spirit possession imported by missionaries. I used the "bolted on" phrase for the superficial sake of contiguity as it had already been used (albeit in reverse terms) previously in this thread. |
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07 Mar 12 - 03:12 PM (#3318834) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Jim Carroll "pre-existent and popularly held African folk beliefs" Chicken and egg really CS - exorcism has been and continues to be a part of christianity, going back at least to the 2nd century under that name - who is to say which is the most toxic of the "toxic mix"? The indication is that, far from being a thing of the past, it seems to be enjoying a bit of a renaissance at present. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-504969/Popes-exorcist-squads-wage-war-Satan.html Not suggesting for one minute that 'is 'oliness's lads would take it as far as this tragic incident - but lest we forget.... the same church that was collecting for "little black babies" on the street corners, was also shipping out to Africa their over-enthusiastic paedophiles to get them "out of harm's way". Jim Carroll |
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07 Mar 12 - 03:18 PM (#3318839) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: GUEST,CS Tsk Jim, quoting the DM! Surely you know to do better than that, even in support of your stance on this matter ;) Either way, I'm not willing to engage in debate about the wrongs of the Christian church elsewhere, however heinous I might acknowledge them to be in other discussions, as personally speaking, I do not think it fruitful to this one. |
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07 Mar 12 - 03:26 PM (#3318843) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Jim Carroll "Tsk Jim, quoting the DM!" It's ok - got my rubber gloves on! Jim Carroll |
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07 Mar 12 - 03:30 PM (#3318846) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: GUEST,CS Haha! |
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08 Mar 12 - 12:15 AM (#3319104) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: GUEST On a point of order, and to help reduce the temperature of my blood from something close to 100-deg C., I keep seeing 'this phenomena' or 'a phenomena' quoted in this thread. 'Phenomena' is the plural of 'phenomenon', so it is either 'this (or a) phenomenon' (singular) or 'these phenomena' (plural). My blood also boils at the same mis-use of the word 'media' as a singular, instead of 'medium'. No apologies for the pedantry (but absolutely no offence intended, CS, it's just one of those itches I desperately needed to scratch!). :-) |
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08 Mar 12 - 12:18 AM (#3319106) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Backwoodsman Mea Culpa! The above post was me on a different browser - didn't realise I needed to log-in again. |
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08 Mar 12 - 02:04 AM (#3319181) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Richard Bridge While I normally abhor neologisms, I wonder if "the media" has not become a collective noun. |
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08 Mar 12 - 02:30 AM (#3319185) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Backwoodsman I agree it has Richard, but that's not what I was moaning about. 'The Media' as a collective term is all fine and dandy, but to refer to one element of The Media as, for example, "The media of TV", rather than "The medium of TV", is just wrong, plain and simple. |
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08 Mar 12 - 03:48 AM (#3319198) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: GUEST,CS Backwoodman, "this phenomenon" it is - I'll endevour to restrain myself from further messy use of language! But I can't promise to do so, never was very good at editing. Or decent sentence structure for that matter! Bluesman, I already covered that inaccuracy - Wicca is an entirely modern syncretic (good word for this thread M) religion whose founders fabricated it's 'history'. While there have been forms of folk magic practiced both here and all over the world throughout history, in the UK at least, such practicioners would NOT have considered themselves to be 'witches', or indeed Wiccans, which has more to do with Masonry than anything identifiable as witchcraft. In fact traditional folk magic would have been fully *openly* practiced by what were known as "Cunning Men" (and Women). Far from being persecuted during the collective madness of Europes witchcraze, these individuals (while if a little awe inspiring) safely practiced their trade, while others innocent of any magical activity (any activity actually provable via means other than torture at least), were being branded as 'witches' by their paranoid neighbours. thread.cfm?threadid=143622&messages=134#3316040 |
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08 Mar 12 - 04:01 AM (#3319204) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Backwoodsman Thanks CS - at least now you won't have the spectre of my early death from apoplexy on your conscience! :-) :-) BTW, I'm pedantic about other stuff too! All part of being a Grumpy Old Man! :-) |
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08 Mar 12 - 04:06 AM (#3319206) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Richard Bridge I don't immediately see any connection between Wicca and freemasonry, nor yet any basis for an assertion that witchcraft exists in England or is increasing. |
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08 Mar 12 - 04:10 AM (#3319207) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: GUEST,CS Incidentally further to Cunning Folk, somewhat akin to what these crooked faith leaders are up to, they too would have "expelled" evil spirits, or provided paranoid villagers with prophylactics against the effects of imagined malefic witchcraft by their neighbours. |
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08 Mar 12 - 04:17 AM (#3319210) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: GUEST Richard, yes it's only *accusations* of witchcraft, and persecution based on those accusations, which is on the rise. For Masonry and Wicca see here: http://pagantheologies.pbworks.com/w/page/13622064/Freemasonry#GeraldGardnerandWicca http://pagantheologies.pbworks.com/w/page/13622307/The%20similarities%20between%20Wicca%20and%20Freemasonry |
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08 Mar 12 - 05:12 AM (#3319259) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: Musket When you say "pay a high spiritual price" I assume you mean mental health issues? Is a lay person such as a pastor or any other form of priest best equipped to deal with this? We have professionals in the field of psychiatry best equipped to deal with the results of people getting screwed up. Two wrongs don't make a right, however well meaning. |
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08 Mar 12 - 06:04 AM (#3319279) Subject: RE: BS: UK Boy Tortured/Murdered From: GUEST,CS It's probably not even worth countering such a blatant bit of provocation, but anyone still labouring under the illusion that Wicca and malefic 'witchcraft' are in any way related should learn a little of the key basics of Wiccan ethics - which very crudely summed up, can be rendered as "freely enjoy your life however you wish, just endevour not to be a nasty bastard while doing so": http://www.religionfacts.com/neopaganism/ethics.htm In fact as organised religions go, it's got to be one of the most ethically healthy, world friendly and indeed human friendly. |