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13 Oct 99 - 08:53 AM (#123352) Subject: Sam Hill From: Ted from Australia Rather than indulge in even more thread creep in the Samhien thread I thought that i would ask why is it that our American cousins are so reluctant to call a spade a spade? "Rather than being crass and asking 'what in the hell are you saying?' it sounds more polite to ask 'What the Sam Hill are you saying?'! " For instance: I am always amused when Yanks (obviously looking for the toilet)ask to be directed to "the rest room" or the "wash room". What do you want ? a shit, a sleep or a shower" NOI. Regards, Ted.
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13 Oct 99 - 10:12 AM (#123381) Subject: RE: BS: Sam Hill From: katlaughing Ah, Ted, the so-called mores of the Victorian age, here at least, die slowly....polite company and all that, ya know?! |
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13 Oct 99 - 10:42 AM (#123394) Subject: RE: BS: Sam Hill From: Bert Reminds me of an earlier thread |
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13 Oct 99 - 10:51 AM (#123398) Subject: RE: BS: Sam Hill From: sophocleese I would say that in Canada to call a spade a spade is simply not refined enough. We would prefer to call it an agricultural implement. There are also those few who are so refined (inbred) as to call it an agricultural impediment. |
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13 Oct 99 - 11:29 AM (#123413) Subject: RE: BS: Sam Hill From: Roger the skiffler Yes, Soph, I was taught: an Englishman calls a spade a spade, a North American calls it a manual agricultural implement and , Ted, an Australian calls it a bloody shovel. No doubt the upper classes (think Lady Bracknell) would claim never to have seen a spade! BTW the best bit of advice my father gave me on marriage was:"When buying a fork and spade for the garden, get the lightweight ones so Sheila can use them!" RtS (thread creep and tired old jokes a speciality) |
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13 Oct 99 - 12:59 PM (#123458) Subject: RE: BS: Sam Hill From: MAG (inactive) Yep, a lot of it is plain silly. I mean, saying you are going to visit Mrs. P. Unfortunately, you get your head bit off in some circles if you mention that your high fiber diet needs more water pressure in the plumbing system. |
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13 Oct 99 - 01:15 PM (#123466) Subject: RE: BS: Sam Hill From: DougR I never heard my father say a curse word. When concerned about something he might say, "I'll be Sam Hill, or I swan!" Does anybody know who Sam Hill was? I never really thought much about it until I saw this thread. If someone knows, I'd be interested in being educated about old Sam Hill. DougR |
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13 Oct 99 - 01:18 PM (#123470) Subject: RE: BS: Sam Hill From: Bert Weren't he Bunker Hill's brother? |
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13 Oct 99 - 01:34 PM (#123484) Subject: RE: BS: Sam Hill From: catspaw49 American Putitan Ethic... But DOUG....My grandparents used to say "I swan" all the time...Is it like "I swear" or what? They'd also use it as "Well my swan"...........Never thought about it til years later when Karen asked me what the Sam Hill it meant. Spaw |
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13 Oct 99 - 01:38 PM (#123492) Subject: RE: BS: Sam Hill From: Lonesome EJ This is absolutely the first time I can recall Americans accused of being too subtle. |
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13 Oct 99 - 01:56 PM (#123498) Subject: RE: BS: Sam Hill From: MMario Why use plain language when a euphemism will do? I personally think it's not only a hangover from "victorian" morals but a deep seated aversion to being punished leftover from the "religious freedom" of Puritan days. |
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13 Oct 99 - 02:03 PM (#123501) Subject: RE: BS: Sam Hill From: Pete Peterson My father used to use the expression. I asked him about it once and he said Sam Hill was Jim Hill's younger brother. Of course this led to a second question, to which the answer was that in Missoula MT, where he grew up, the most hated man was Jim Hill, owner of the Northern Pacific RR, which ran through Missoula on its way from Chicago to the Pacific Northwest. Think of some of the Granger songs from around 1890 and you have an idea. . . Dad was born in 1909. |
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13 Oct 99 - 05:27 PM (#123562) Subject: ADD Lyrics: Sam Hill From: Gene FWIW: Tommy Collins, author of: You Better Not Do That You Gotta Have A License I Always Get A Souvenir High On A Hllltop Boob-I-Lak Carolyn Hank's [Williams] Song and scores of other hit songs gave SAM HILL a different twist Merle Haggard later wrote the song 'Leonard' about Tommy Collins SAM HILL Recorded by: Merle Haggard Recorded by: Claude Gray There's a certain hill outside of town called SAM HILL And a certain guy used to go there every day They said a certain girl lived up in SAM HILL Aw, a pretty girl, not hep to city ways This certain guy would come down the hill a smilin' Headed back to town at the crack of dawn And he had 'em all a wonderin' what he was doin' Yeah, wonderin' what in SAM HILL's goin' on We knew this certain guy was not a goldminer Cause he never took a shovel or a pick He only took a little box of candy And disappeared in SAM HILL mighty quick We tried to follow him to his destination But he had a secret path and soon he was gone And he had us all a wonderin' what he was doin' Yeah, wonderin' what in SAM HILL's goin' on I know that you have wondered too about SAM HILL You've probably asked "What in SAM HILL's goin' on?" All I can say in answer to your question Is the goin's on are still goin' on This certain guy's still takin' up his candy He's 99 and all his youth is gone But he climbs that hill and still comes down a smilin' And we're wonderin' what in SAM HILL's goin' on TAG: Wish I knew ... What in SAM HILL's goin' on He won't tell us' ... What in SAM HILL's goin' on He just snickers ... What in SAM HILL's goin' on |
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13 Oct 99 - 06:24 PM (#123573) Subject: RE: BS: Sam Hill From: Banjer Oh my, I guess I started somethin', huh? I grew up with the expression and never gave much thought as to its origin. But if anybody does discover what the Sam Hill's goin' on, please advise....Thanks |
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13 Oct 99 - 06:31 PM (#123576) Subject: RE: BS: Sam Hill From: cronk Sam Hill was a real man. An entrepreneur in eastern Wash. or eastern Oregon who operated near the Columbia River. |
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13 Oct 99 - 06:42 PM (#123582) Subject: RE: BS: Sam Hill From: katlaughing DougeR and 'Spaw: wasn't that "swan" a drawled out Southern version, literally of "I sworn/swear", i.e "I was swan to secrecy"? Everybody knows those of you with a little South in Your Mouth, drawl out those "r's" until thay-ah almost non-existent!*BG* Now, I am off on a NetQuest, to see who in the Sam Hill, Sam Hill WAS! Oh, does El Swanno come into this somehow? katreallylaughing |
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13 Oct 99 - 06:56 PM (#123585) Subject: RE: BS: Sam Hill From: katlaughing Well, I did find this in a quick search fo Yahoo:
We've all heard that phrase before. Yes, indeed. He lived in Washington and married the daughter of a railroad magnate. He built a large mansion called Maryhill on 7,000 acres of land. His wife refused to live in the mansion, and it is now a museum that has a stunning collection of Auguste Rodin sculptures. Sam Hill also built a partial replica of Stonehenge as a memorial to veterans of World War I from Klickitat County. |
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13 Oct 99 - 07:03 PM (#123591) Subject: RE: BS: Sam Hill From: Mían This is really getting interesting. |
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13 Oct 99 - 11:01 PM (#123675) Subject: RE: BS: Sam Hill From: bseed(charleskratz) I don't really see an etymological link to the story of the Washingtonian Sam Hill: If he was the original, how did the usage develop? And when I grew up, a long long time ago and in another galaxy, it was not "What in Sam Hill are you doing?" but "Where in Sam Hill have you been?" implying that Sam Hill was a place. --seed |
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13 Oct 99 - 11:04 PM (#123677) Subject: RE: BS: Sam Hill From: bseed(charleskratz) Actually, now that I think of it, I think Sam Hill is just a euphemism for Hell: What the Hell are you doing. Where the hell have you been? --seed |
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14 Oct 99 - 12:02 AM (#123699) Subject: RE: BS: Sam Hill From: dick greenhaus Well, has anyone considered that the word "toilet" is a euphemism, too?
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14 Oct 99 - 12:22 AM (#123710) Subject: RE: BS: Sam Hill From: catspaw49 I dunno Dick...Have you considered that "euphemism" is a euphemism? Spaw |
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14 Oct 99 - 12:24 AM (#123711) Subject: RE: BS: Sam Hill From: katlaughing And, how about "bathroom"; sure one could bathe in most, but that's not really what we want when we ask where it is. Bseed- I just put the Sam Hill in WA in as an interesting thing I found on the Net, not as a definitive answer.*g* kat |
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14 Oct 99 - 02:54 AM (#123736) Subject: RE: BS: Sam Hill From: bseed(charleskratz) Kat, I wasn't accusing you of being etymologically promiscuous--just noting that no one who mentioned that Sam Hill had shown that this man was "the" Sam Hill or had given any indication of how the idiom had originated. In other words, I was just operating in my pedantic butthead mode. --seed |
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14 Oct 99 - 03:56 AM (#123747) Subject: RE: BS: Sam Hill From: Roger the skiffler Isn't Gordon Bennett Sam Hill's English cousin? |
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14 Oct 99 - 10:04 AM (#123803) Subject: RE: BS: Sam Hill From: Ted from Australia 'Spaw you are right of course, "toilet" is a euphemism. Even Aussies (but only in mixed company) won't ask to be directed to 'the crapper" the "shithouse" or "the pisser" ;-) Regards , Ted. |
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14 Oct 99 - 11:29 AM (#123837) Subject: RE: BS: Sam Hill From: katlaughing s'okay, Seed, I knew that. Maybe I shoulda made the *G* bigger?! No problem! |
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14 Oct 99 - 12:59 PM (#123859) Subject: RE: BS: Sam Hill From: forget Sam Hill. Who is John Brown? My Mom has always said, "Well, I'll be John Brown!" to express amazement. And, to mean that something happens fast, she says "Faster than you can say 'Jack Robinson' backwards." Where does _that_ come from. Also, does anybody know where Plum Nelly is? BeauD |
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14 Oct 99 - 02:09 PM (#123882) Subject: RE: BS: Sam Hill From: Allan C. There exist two wonderful books by Charles Earle Funk. One is called "A Hog On Ice & Other Curious Expressions". The other is "Heavens To Betsy & Other Curious Sayings". Both are well worth the $8 (U.S.) each to keep around for just such questions as these. Regarding Sam Hill, he says this: "After long an diligent search for some American of sufficient prominence in a bygone generation to justify the continued use of his name, even to the present time, in such sayings as 'to run like Sam Hill,' 'What the Sam Hill,' 'Who the Sam Hill,' and so on, I have come to the conclusion that the editors of the 'Dictionary of Americanisms' were right in calling the term 'a euphemism for hell.' It may be, as Edwin V. Mitchell says in his 'Encyclopedia of American Politics' (1946), that there was a Colonel Samuel Hill of Guilford, Connecticut, who continuously ran for and was elected to public office in both town and state, but this colonel, though perhaps locally prominent, does not turn up in any of the numerous biographical records I have consulted. Nor does Mr Mitchell supply any dates. The expression itself had sufficiently widespread usage to extend into Schuyler County, New York, by 1839." He obviously didn't become aware of the Washington Sam Hill mentioned above or else the date of the Schuyler County appearance may have predated that railroad magnate. I'm sure I don't know. John Brown was hanged. I imagine the expression phrased in the post above was a euphemism for "I'll be hanged!". Mr. Funk has this to say about Jack Robinson: "This means in a couple of shakes, two shakes of a lamb's tail, or, in plain English, immediately, with no loss of time. The expression arose during the latter part of the eighteenth century and, as far as anyone has been able to discover, it was no more than a meaningless phrase. No 'Jack Robinson' nor 'John Robinson' attained any prominence at that period. As to the meaning of "swan" while I have always thought that it was used instead of "swear", I remember reading a discussion somewhere in which someone offered the idea that it may have come from the word, "swoon" which, besides being defined as losing consciousness is also said to mean being in a state of bewilderment. I don't have any answers for this one but thought you might find those possibilities of interest.
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15 Oct 99 - 08:00 PM (#124433) Subject: RE: BS: Sam Hill From: DougR Well I'll swan. DougR |
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15 Oct 99 - 09:14 PM (#124455) Subject: RE: BS: Sam Hill From: catspaw49 John Brown......assuming we're talking about the abolitionist and not the Phyllis George ex, ex-Kentucky governor, and fried Chicken tycoon who exed the Colonel.....was the proof that crazed, eccentrric, zealots, even on the side of the angels, are still crazed, eccentric, zealots! Do I have to add he was, of course, from Ohio? Spaw |
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16 Oct 99 - 03:12 AM (#124532) Subject: RE: BS: Sam Hill From: katlaughing I've just posted a query on sam Hill, John Brown, swan, and Plum Nelly to this: "Weekly World Wide Words newsletters that are written by Michael Quinion. Newsletters discuss the vagaries of the English language, including word histories, new words, the background to words in the news, and some of the problems of English usage. World Wide Words also tries to answer your questions on English language and usage." Will let you know what they say. |