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06 Apr 12 - 04:57 AM (#3334399) Subject: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: selby In the light of the good work done achieving lottery funding, if the front page of national newspapers had said "EFDDSS GETS FUNDING FROM LOTTERY" how many people would know what it was. Most large and not so large companies rebrand themselves from time to time should the EFDSS look at rebranding itself? |
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06 Apr 12 - 05:14 AM (#3334401) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray Maybe they should drop the English, and the Folk, and think about Heritage more, the Dance Heritage and Song Society... |
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06 Apr 12 - 05:15 AM (#3334402) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: Mo the caller A newspaper headline should not use an abbreviation that would be unfamiliar to it's readers. And the name in full is a good description of what EFDSS is and does. How much money is spent on rebranding by these large companies - and didn't Royal Mail (or someone) change, then change back. EFDSS has already turned it's logo on it's side. Any more would be untraditional :) |
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06 Apr 12 - 05:38 AM (#3334406) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: The Sandman good points, much money is wasted unnecessarily on rebranding, however there is no reason why this point should not be considered, perhaps it has already. |
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06 Apr 12 - 05:38 AM (#3334407) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: JHW How many EFDSS members does it take to change a light bulb? Change?!?! |
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06 Apr 12 - 07:55 AM (#3334439) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: Commander Crabbe Now that's a good question! The answer is probably. If you drop the English as Suibhne suggests that would make it more Cosmopolitan. That leaves the "Folk Dance and Song Society". However there are those who might wish it otherwise such as the "Folk Song and Dance Society" To avoid argument drop the Dance and Song which leaves "The Folk Society" However this is less descriptive of the work done so why not add Heritage to Make it the "Folk Heritage Society". Anyway, I suppose if you did so, then the leading lumieres of EFDSS as it stands at the present would probably go into a song and dance about it!!!! Neither a wise man nor a brave man lies down on the tracks of history to wait for the train of the future to run over him. ~ Dwight D. Eisenhower CC |
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06 Apr 12 - 08:11 AM (#3334441) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: GUEST,PeterC If you feel that it should change then propose a motion for the AGM. Personally I am not a member so I do not feel entitled to express an opinion. |
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06 Apr 12 - 08:17 AM (#3334445) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: Vic Smith The word Heritage, for me, carries some unfortunate connotations. It suggests to me the rather twee products that are sold in those ghastly "heritage" shops such as Past Times. No, "heritage" has nothing of the vibrancy that "tradition" or even "folk" brings. Let's not suggest that word for the title. Those who suggest that the word English be removed may have more of a point. The Journals have been reporting non-English aspects of the tradition since their earliest days. The phrase if it ain't broke, don't fix it comes to mind at a time when the EFDSS is doing better in virtually every way than it has been doing in the 40-odd years that I have been deeply interested in dance and song. |
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06 Apr 12 - 08:27 AM (#3334454) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: Jack Campin The TMSA wasted a small fortune on rebranding about ten years ago. The original logo was pretty bad, but the new designs achieved absolutely nothing except lining the pockets of a graphic design company. |
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06 Apr 12 - 09:18 AM (#3334473) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: Owen Woodson "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". I agree. What's more I have no quarrel with an organisation which concentrates on English, or even British, song and dance, whilst acknowledging and highlighting the fact that every other nation on earth has a folk culture which is just as valuable as ours They could of course always change the name to The Institute For The Study of Workers' Songs. Radical workers' songs, that is. There's an idea worth campaigning for. |
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06 Apr 12 - 11:08 AM (#3334510) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: SteveMansfield Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo No. The name does what it says on the tin, and gives a good summary of the aims and purposes of the organisation. And, as Vic says, it's on a roll at the moment, so why change the name now of all times. And I am a member, incidentally, so any motion to change the name already on -1 :) |
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06 Apr 12 - 11:45 AM (#3334528) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: alex s -2 |
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06 Apr 12 - 02:08 PM (#3334627) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: treewind It wouldn't be hard to spend the entire lottery grant on designing a new logo. Such things have happened before. I'm quite confident today's EFDSS have much better ideas on how the use the money. And yes, it is English. Other countries (in or out of the UK or GB) have their own national cultural folk organisations; why shouldn't England? Anahata |
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06 Apr 12 - 02:30 PM (#3334635) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: greg stephens Definitely keep the English. Of course it should explore its cultural connections with adjoining areas, and not keep its nose inside England's borders,but it's an English organisation, keep it so, I say. Otherwise, I'm 100% with Vic. It's doing fine at the minute, don't waste time on divisive things. And certainly don't waste money on branding consultants, or it will end up called dansalogia or fOLK.It or something. |
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06 Apr 12 - 03:13 PM (#3334660) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: GUEST,Shimrod You should all be ashamed of yourselves! Why have you all got it in for the Re-Branding Industry? Don't you know that it's the only sector of our economy that's making any money? Leaving aside the fact that many other businesses have bankrupted themselves, and alienated their customers, as a result of pointless re-branding exercises ... we are where we are ... sssooo ... ummm ... ... we need to find new customers for the re-branders so they don't go out of business! |
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06 Apr 12 - 03:20 PM (#3334664) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: GUEST,CS I think it is broke and does need fixing. It's broke as far as *I* was concerned because when looking for old English songs, the EDSFFFingSSS never so much as appeared on the scanner. "English Song, Music & Dance Heritage Society". I'd vote for getting rid of 'folk' entirely because to the vast populace it it represents a slightly twee commercial music genre and nothing more. |
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06 Apr 12 - 06:28 PM (#3334728) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: Commander Crabbe Vic says "The word Heritage, for me, carries some unfortunate connotations. It suggests to me the rather twee products that are sold in those ghastly "heritage" shops such as Past Times. No, "heritage" has nothing of the vibrancy that "tradition" or even "folk" brings. Let's not suggest that word for the title." Forgive me if I'm mistaken but didn't the recent funding come from "The Heritage Lottery Fund" Which by all accounts does the following Valuing our heritage, investing in our future Using money raised through the National Lottery, the Heritage Lottery Fund gives grants to sustain and transform our heritage. From museums, parks and historic places to archaeology, natural environment and cultural traditions we invest in every part of our diverse heritage. The name EFDSS itself suggests they are having a limited or narrow outlook or scope. As the website states: The English Folk Dance and Song Society (EFDSS) is one of the leading folk development organisations in the UK with a history dating back to 1898. It is multi-faceted, being: •a membership society with 4000 members; •an advocate and lobbyist; •an arts venue (Cecil Sharp House in North London) hosting concerts, lectures, multi-media events and an array of social dances; •an education, training and development agency providing classes and workshops for people of all ages and all abilities, and working in schools, colleges, community groups and supporting professional artists; •a publisher and on-line shop, publishing and selling a range of books and CDs on folk dance and music; •the custodian of the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library, an internationally renowned library and archive of the folk arts. Through its work, the EFDSS aims to place the indigenous folk arts of England at the heart of our cultural life. Use our website to find out more and about how you can get involved. If this is true why limit it to "English" why not expand a little. England is now a multicultural society and if they profess to "place the indigenous folk arts of England at the heart of our cultural life" The United Kingdom has a population of 60.8 million people and growing, EFDSS has a membership of 4000! which equates to 0.006% of the population and decreasing. That a fairly minitessimal minority deciding on what should be termed as "The indigenous Folk Arts of England" So it's probably about time they moved on and embraced a little change. Either that or they rename themselves "The Pre-Multicultural England - Old English Folk Dance and Song Society" I'm not a member of the EFDSS either, nor would I consider joining until it considers a paradigm shift. I do however live in England, well The sovereign Country of Yorkshire that is! This probably means I won't be joining. CC |
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06 Apr 12 - 06:36 PM (#3334731) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: Jack Campin CC, have you ever looked at the EFDSS's events calendar? |
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06 Apr 12 - 07:09 PM (#3334738) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: Commander Crabbe Jack Even more reason to change it's name then? CC |
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06 Apr 12 - 07:23 PM (#3334743) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: RTim In the Multi-cultural society that exists in the UK today - The EFDSS provides an association that recognizes and promotes the important elements that make England England, and long may they do so. I will also state that after 40 plus years being interested in English Folk Culture, I have only been a member of the EFDSS for the last 3 years - because I can see what an important job they are trying to do, and that they should be supported. Other places exist for those things I am less interested in - I support English Song and Dance, so should you. I still love and follow the music of other cultures. Tim Radford |
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06 Apr 12 - 07:33 PM (#3334748) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: Commander Crabbe Jack By naming it purely "English" they are creating a barrier to progress. Even though they are hosting a variety of international style events. Many will see "English" in the title and proceed no further if they are looking for another genre. Re-naming may attract a greater following thereby increasing membership and of course available funding. This might alleviate the amount of begging from the "Heritage Lottery Fund" Of the many thousands of people who buy lottery tickets few will benefit from the grant I suppose. Don't get me wrong, I am not against preserving culture and heritage. I just don't think any society dedicated to doing so needs any misleading or off putting barriers to attracting interest. I have been playing and singing both traditional and contemporary music for some 40 years. In all that time I have not seen one advert for the EFDSS nor been approached to see if I wanted to join. Which seems to suggest they might need a better marketing team. If in fact they have one. CC |
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07 Apr 12 - 05:40 AM (#3334856) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: GUEST,FloraG What I think it needs is more members. ( If memory serves me right I think it is only 4000). It could also do with a regional base. It needs to be at every festival, and promote itself at clubs and other folk venues. perhaps it should explore the idea of low cost non voting members or club membership. This would avoid the need for the sending out of accounts but be a way for those with an interest in folk to support it. A member. FloraG. |
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07 Apr 12 - 06:30 AM (#3334862) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: Vic Smith I am also a member and have been for a number of years now. Previous to around 2000, I did not feel that the EFDSS was worth joining. There was a moribund, internecine feeling that surrounded a lot of their activities (in spite of the glory that is the VWM Library). Much of their activities seemed to be around funding Cecil Sharp House which was something of a mausoleum. I think that I was fairly fast and responsive in recognising that changes and improvements that were going on - mainly, I feel, inspired by Malcolm Taylor and his dedicated library staff. Twelve years on the EFDSS is virtually unrecognisable from the place that I first came into contact with in my student days in London. CC writes In all that time I have not seen one advert for the EFDSS nor been approached to see if I wanted to join. My experience was quite the reverse. As a folk music activist, I was personally targetted on quite a number of occasions in the decades before I did join with the usual persuasion being something like "if you don't like what the society does, join it and work for change from the inside." On reflection, that is what I should have done but in days gone by it seemed like a lost cause. I was a member of the TMSA a much smaller but more active organisation during the 1970s. The EFDSS in 1972 and the EFDSS in 2012 are entirely different animals, |
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07 Apr 12 - 12:17 PM (#3334960) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: GUEST,Guest The 'Folk Dance' bit suggests morris dancing bigtime, which is a turnoff for many who might otherwise consider folk music to be vibrant, contemporary and relevant. Oh - their website has 'modern' morris dancing on the front page. In that case a new name or logo isn't going to help. |
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07 Apr 12 - 12:33 PM (#3334968) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: Steve Gardham The 'Folk Dance' bit suggests morris dancing bigtime....' Not quite sure what is being implied here, but if it implies what I think it is then, GUEST, you have a very narrow perception. Country dance of several different forms, both from a social angle and a technical angle, are well promoted and provided for, not to mention longsword, rapper, clog and whole host of lesser known forms. Morris itself consists of some very diverse forms from different parts of the country. |
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07 Apr 12 - 12:45 PM (#3334972) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: Stringsinger Keep the English. An organization to be successful has to have a focus. English country dance and folk music emphasizes the cultural aspects of England which can include diversity without sacrificing a focal point. Being too broad and all inclusive really degrades the essential idea, the important aspects of a specific heritage. I say this as an American that wants to see our country focus on the national heritage of our folksong and folkdance music, (or vice versa). Trying to grow too big by including everything defeats the initial purpose of the organization. |
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07 Apr 12 - 01:19 PM (#3334988) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: GUEST,Guest If the symbol becomes more important than the substance, then what's the point? |
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07 Apr 12 - 01:24 PM (#3334991) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: The Sandman The EFDSS in 1972 and the EFDSS in 2012 are entirely different animals," I will take your word for it, but what the EFDSS must not do is be so sensitive about criticism, much can be learned from constructive criticism. It is a sign of maturity and self confidence when an organisation can look at itself And say yes... there is room for improvement, Yes maybe a certain decision was a mistake. however a lot of careful thought should be taken before EFDSS decides to rebrand itself, I am in agreement with Stringsinger |
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07 Apr 12 - 01:42 PM (#3335008) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: The Sandman in 1972, the EFDSS ran folk music festivals including Sidmouth, in 1972 it had branches throughout the UK. IN 2012 it no longer runs folk festivals and has no branches. does anyone have details of the numbers of members in 2012, and the number of members in 1972. The above is not a criticism but a statement of facts,I believe its current membership is less than 1972, if i am wrong please correct me, this might suggest that EFDDSS is in decline or it might suggest it has been in decline but is starting to regain membership. I would be very interested to know the yearly membership since 1972 until 2012 |
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07 Apr 12 - 04:37 PM (#3335083) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: JHW Jack Campin mentions the TMSA. The headline 'TMSA loses funding' would equally be lost on most of the public. Awareness of what an organisation is and does is not generated by its name or logo but is gained over time. EFDSS got itself a headline so don't change it now! |
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07 Apr 12 - 04:55 PM (#3335090) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: Mo the caller Flora suggested club membership. Out dance club is already a member, and displays the magazines and journals so that any of our members who are not Efdss members can borrow them. There used to be 2 kinds of club membershipbut it changed. A big advantage of membership for any club, caller or musician is the public liability insurance that is free with membership (within limits) |
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08 Apr 12 - 06:26 AM (#3335294) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: GUEST,FloraG Mo I was thinking of something costing under £5 a head with perhaps a 4 page email newsletter rather than the full magazine, for those who might like to contribute but not be so actively involved. I must admit- I tend to look at the pictures in the mag and then bin it. FloraG. |
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08 Apr 12 - 08:03 AM (#3335315) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: selby It seems to me that looking at some of the figures quoted earlier that there are a large number of folkies that do not support the EFDSS which i would suggest should be a worry . I feel on balance for me that the EFDSS is a large London Folk Club with a library that does not in my experience move out of its own enclave. There are so many young people doing exciting things in the English Tradition that I fell that the EFDSS is missing out on. Would I join the EFDSS at the moment no it has nothing to give me as far as I can see unless I travel to London at a large cost to me both in time and money Keith |
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08 Apr 12 - 08:20 AM (#3335321) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: Steve Gardham Hi Keith We all get an enormous amount of pleasure from our involvement with folk music. The EFDSS and its members have contributed a large slice of that over the past century. Currently I partly see my membership as a way of supporting all the background work which I also contribute to. I first joined in 1966 and then left in about 72 for similar reasons that you give. I have now been a member for over 20 years and in that time I've seen vast improvements in many areas. No we don't have an active local branch any more, but that's partly our own fault. The recent online activities alone in my opinion make it more than worthwhile supporting. Love to Eileen and the lads. Steve |
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08 Apr 12 - 12:13 PM (#3335385) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: Commander Crabbe Just had a quick scan of the events list and there is nothing there that would drag me all the way to London. Apart from the regular events such as Camden Clog, Sharps Folk Club, C# Minors, Ceilidh Club, Thursday Dancing Beginners +. Which are all basically London based for Londoners or those within easy striking distance. The other stuff Like File Gumbo Cajun, Balkan Plus, Society for international folk dancing, Consort de Danse Baroque, Quadrille Club etc which I wouldn't really term as "English" in the true sense. These are in my opinion fairly much enjoyed by the minority in this country. However if anyone knows of a thriving Balkan or Cajun enclave anywhere I will stand corrected. "English" for me embraces all of England and other english speaking countries. However, apart from the on line content, most of the Events and education classes run by EFDSS at and through C# House would mainly appear to be for those in London and the near surrounds. Maybe someone can give us an itinerary of events in other parts of the UK for those of us who can't make it to London easily and on a regular basis? Like selby I'm still not going to be seeking membership as there is not much on offer for me. CC |
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08 Apr 12 - 05:15 PM (#3335482) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: Steve Gardham The 'other stuff' is the EFDSS attempting to increase income by letting C#H. Currently they haven't enough income to employ staff to run events regionally although there are individual projects in different parts of the country which are being funded by the lottery money. Of course these are mainly educational. Some of our most esteemed festivals were started by EFDSS. Their main current function, a very important one, is seen as the main repository for English folk archive, and the making available of that material to the world. In that case they are doing an excellent job. The Annual Journal is a highly acclaimed publication. As I said in my case I get plenty from it and I'm pleased to be able to contribute. I live marginally further away from C#H than Keith, but I at least have sons in London which helps. |
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08 Apr 12 - 06:06 PM (#3335497) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: Tootler I don't belong to EFDSS for similar reasons to those given by others - mainly too far from London. I have considered joining on a number of occasions but I do not see any significant benefits in doing so. I have a daughter in London but she cannot put us up. She lives with her husband and their daughter in a two bedroom flat, so visiting her means the cost of both travel to London (from Teesside) and of accommodation - at London prices - for the few days we go at a time. I do belong to the Society of Recorder Players and I belong through my local branch in which I am active. For me that's the difference. EFDSS does not have local branches, for whatever reason, and I think it is a mistake. That said, I am pleased to see that their profile has been much higher recently for all the right reasons and they do have some pretty good publications. I hope the person who suggested dropping the word "English" from the title was joking because that's the last thing that should be changed. Surely their whole raison d'etre is to promote English folk music and dance. |
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08 Apr 12 - 10:27 PM (#3335548) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: Commander Crabbe Steve I don't disagree with you, the archive is no doubt of great importance and long may they continue to provide this service. Tootler 1. No I wasn't joking. 2. If the raison d'etre is to promote English Folk Music and Dance, then in my opinion they are failing to do so other than in London. I'm not suggesting that the paradigm shift encompasses international folk dance and song as this would be a fairly mammoth task. How about we start with just the British Isles first. Neither do I deny the right of the English to term what they do as English. The society as Steve says cannot fund such things as regional events, and as they have held out the begging bowl to the Heritage Lottery Fund, it would seem that they are unable to fund their Raison d'etre as well. One way to increase available funding, is to increase membership. Pure English Folk Dance and Song is a fairly small remit. Since we have embraced multi-culturalism there is a vibrant mixture of different genre in the country which is by all accounts thriving in both young and old generations. If they were to open up to other country's genre such as our closest neighbours then membership, support and funding may increase. If you take England's closest neighbours such as Scotland, Wales, Ireland and France. If you were to score score The english on a popularity poll you may find they do not rate highly. Therefore "English" in essence becomes an off putting barrier. I speak mainly English and a smattering of Welsh (not much) because I attended a Welsh grammar school. Their modus operandi was that because all Welsh speaking students had to take English language lessons then all English speakers had to take Welsh language lessons for the first three years. I didn't have a problem with that because it seemed reasonable. I also regularly watch, gaelic (Scots) and gaelic (Irish) music programmes. They are kind enough to put sub titles up so I can understand what the announcer is saying. As far as I'm aware there are no regular "English" folk music programmes available to watch at all! and if there were, would they have gaelic Scots, Irish or Welsh subtitles. I doubt it. So, in essence in order to secure funding to preserve a fairly small section of "Pure English" folk dance and song maybe it would be prudent to expand the remit a little. Working on the principle that if funding for one language is getting hard to come by then maybe taking on four languages might provide it. There are various organisations in the country such as The Scottish Music Centre, The National Library of Wales' music collection, The Irish Traditional Music Archive, The National Dance Archive of Ireland, Scottish Dance Archives that may be open to closer collaboration. The grant was a one off for a specific purpose. To secure long term funding you need more vision than a begging bowl. The United Kingdom Folk Dance and Song Society may have more chance of survival in the long run. CC |
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09 Apr 12 - 03:05 AM (#3335581) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: selby Nice to hear from you Steve and love to you and Gilli. Thanks to all the contributors for a good and frank discussion lets hope we can continue Strangely I started this discussion knowing that the EFDSS existed I support the EFDSS in spirit. I was therefore surprised when I looked at their website. to see Gumbo Cajun, Balkan Plus, Society for international folk dancing, Consort de Danse Baroque, Quadrille Club happily advertised on the web site. Whilst I appreciate the facility has to make a profit by hiring a hall out have they not lost the plot a bit by advertising these world music events on their website in so doing losing the English bit of the title . Again with the London thing is there not a case now the seat of learning has arguably shifted to Newcastle to relocate the library there? Is there a thriving EFDSS in Newcastle that is kept under wraps? Steve makes some good points for the EFDSS and is a tireless collector I agree with much he says but I still in my head see the organisation as a London elite club that largely ignores other parts of the country Steve makes the point that could be our fault and I can go with that unfortunately the drive, belief impetuous has to come from the parent organisation. It does not appear to want to do that. Keith |
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09 Apr 12 - 04:45 AM (#3335602) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: The Sandman EFDSS should be adressing all the points made in this discussion including membership numbers, if i was chief executive I would be thinking about encouraging people to open branches. |
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09 Apr 12 - 05:11 AM (#3335609) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: selby GSS I think very much the same. I attend a few festivals and never see the EFDSS selling it self. I was in Regents Park Camden Market area of London last weekend and never saw any signs directing me to Cecil Sharp house and I was looking as I would have liked to have seen it Keith |
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09 Apr 12 - 05:38 AM (#3335614) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: treewind The EFDSS did have regional branches, and many of them still exist as independent regional folk organisations. Suffolk Folk is one such, and retains affiliate membership of the EFDSS but is in no way controlled by the Society. Before jumping to the conclusion that EFDSS should open regional branches, it would be instructive to find out why this regional network was disbanded, and to assess how much the reasons for that disbanding are relevant now. For the future, the Society could perhaps work out the terms of a new relationship with these existing organisations that would be mutually beneficial. You can't just "open branches" without being quite clear about what they are going to do, and how and why. |
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09 Apr 12 - 06:16 AM (#3335624) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: selby Surely a branch works under the umbrella of the organisation and is a meeting of people in that locality that supports the main body. Therefore would you not have EFDSS (Timbucktoo branch) I don't know but are affiliations the way the organisation wanted to go or needs to go. I dont see why a dozen members in an area cannot get together or do they have to be meetings with all that brings if thats the case the EFDSS in my opinion has huge problems. I assume by the title the ENGLISH folk dance and song society means that the organisation is for all in the country and not London or are those outside of London not allowed to be members and have to make or own little organisation up, that will be accepted if the EFDSS agree with that organisations principles pretty sad dont you think. |
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09 Apr 12 - 07:34 AM (#3335640) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: Commander Crabbe Treewind It would be interesting to discover why Suffolk Folk decided to become independent of the Society and not to continue as EFDSS Suffolk Branch? As selby says any branch works under the umberella of the parent organisation. Its members work towards the stated vision and objectives of the parent organisation. This happens all over the country in other organisations like the RNLI, Royal British Legion, The Womens Institute, The Scouts, WRVS etc etc. Try to tell them that they can't just open branches! Where most organisations or teams start to fall apart is when the members start to disagree with the vision, any stated objectives and the leadership. If they are not allowed to have a say or play an active part in these things then they break away and set up the way they feel it should be. This is why every organisation should examine itself closely on a regular basis to see that they have a clear vision in place, the objectives are relevant and take account of the future and the customer and also that they have sound leadership and management. When was this last done for the EFDSS? Or do they think that it is not a requirement? If the answer to this is never and not required then the organisation is, in my opinion, doomed to failure. Here we go: It is multi-faceted, being: •a membership society with 4000 members; •an advocate and lobbyist; •an arts venue (Cecil Sharp House in North London) hosting concerts, lectures, multi-media events and an array of social dances; •an education, training and development agency providing classes and workshops for people of all ages and all abilities, and working in schools, colleges, community groups and supporting professional artists; •a publisher and on-line shop, publishing and selling a range of books and CDs on folk dance and music; •the custodian of the Vaughan Williams Memorial Library, an internationally renowned library and archive of the folk arts. Through its work, the EFDSS aims to place the indigenous folk arts of England at the heart of our cultural life. Use our website to find out more and about how you can get involved. The vision aims and objectives stated above speak volumes 1. It is Multi faceted (No it isn't it only appears to have two C#House and the internet) 2. We only have 4000 members! 3. What do they advocate and where/who do they lobby? 4. An arts venue (mainly for londoners) 5. Providing education classes and workshops (mainly for londoners) 6. The publishing is available in london and online. What about those who don't do online (they still exist) and won't go anywhwere near london. 7. The memorial library is available in london and online. ditto above. 8. Through its work, the EFDSS aims to place the indigenous folk arts of England at the heart of our cultural life. (but only in London maybe) 9. Use our website to find out more and about how you can get involved. (We can't afford or be arsed to bring it to you, so if you manage to find our website read all about us and maybe get involved) Just a little bit Laissez-faire and long overdue for an overhaul possibly? CC |
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09 Apr 12 - 07:53 AM (#3335647) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: Jack Campin That's just mean-spirited sniping. Grow up. From where I am (Edinburgh) it's unlikely there will ever be a local chapter of any organization devoted to English music. But for isolated people the existing setup gets most of it right: like it or not, London is the most accessible city in the UK, and a local chapter in Hull or a library in Stoke-on-Trent would be a lot less accessible to me. Their publications are widely available, and if you haven't seen them you haven't been looking. Here's a comparable organization: British Bluegrass Federation They don't say what their membership is (I would guess about 1000). The only way you can contact them physically is by going to their annual festival, held in a town I'd never heard of until five minutes ago. Their tuition system sounds like a good idea until you realize you have to get to said festival to take advantage of it. A category of band membership also sounds like it might be useful, but the link to find out about it fails. I could have compared the EFDSS point-by-point to the TMSA but that really would be shooting fish in a barrel. The only thing the TMSA gets right is organizing festivals, something which no longer needs a national organization in England. |
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09 Apr 12 - 08:03 AM (#3335652) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: Jack Campin oops - British Bluegrass Music Association - it's probably banjos-at-dawn if you get the name wrong. |
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09 Apr 12 - 09:01 AM (#3335676) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: Paul Davenport CC writes; 'There are various organisations in the country such as The Scottish Music Centre, The National Library of Wales' music collection, The Irish Traditional Music Archive, The National Dance Archive of Ireland, Scottish Dance Archives that may be open to closer collaboration.' While this is true, by your own criteria they would need to change their names to be more cosmopolitan surely? Why is it okay for an organisation to be 'Scottish' by definition or 'Welsh' and yet not 'English'. You would appear very arrogant to approach other groups with the stance, 'we are all embracing so you can work with us'. By the English label we are seen to be the same as the other organisations. By the way, if you were on the inside of the argument rather than the outside, you would be unsurprised to learn of the close interaction between the EFDSS and all of the organisations you listed. Nevertheless, the Society is still too 'London centric' and needs to address this in the very near future. |
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09 Apr 12 - 09:22 AM (#3335679) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: Commander Crabbe Jack The OP's question was should the name/logo change. If the society was called The London Folk Dance and Song Society then I wouldn't be having this discussion. No mean spirited sniping intended indeed. I am looking at this from the perspective of a leader and manager who's likes to dabble at "Folk Music and Song" As opposed to A Musician/Dancer who likes to dabble in leadership and management. Any organisation needs sound leadership and management, a credible vision and relevant objectives. It also has to live up to them. I don't particularly care whether the EFDSS chnges its name to fit the aims and objectives, or whether it changes its aims and objectives to fit the name. As an organisation though it must be responsive to change and the needs of its customers, therefore it has to examine itself regularly to ensure it is meeting it aims and objectives and its customers needs. If it doesn't then it will go under eventually. Who Moved My Cheese Yours youthfully! CC |
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09 Apr 12 - 10:32 AM (#3335715) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: GUEST,Howard Jones In recent years the EFDSS has turned itself into an effective lobbying organisation and has succeeded in getting itself taken seriously in the arts world. Not everyone will see that is being important, or perhaps even desirable, but it is surely that which has opened the door to some substantial funding. Not so many years ago the idea of and folk music being taken seriously by the arts establishment let alone any funding, coming its way, would be unthinkable. What it hasn't succeeded in doing is extend its sphere of influence much beyond north London. Neither doesn it seem to show much interest in doing so, although in fairneit has sponsored a few events in the rest of the country. Digitising more of the collection will surely make it more accessible to those who can't easily get to C# House. I'm generally well-disposed towards it, but if the EFDSS were to disappear overnight I don't think it would make the slightest difference to me or the musical activities I'm involved in. |
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09 Apr 12 - 10:45 AM (#3335721) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: selby HJ "I'm generally well-disposed towards it, but if the EFDSS were to disappear overnight I don't think it would make the slightest difference to me or the musical activities I'm involved in" I agree whole heartedly with you statement I suspect that most of the folk world feels pretty much the same which after digitisation starts to make it less important as all you would need is a good webmaster,which would be a shame. I do feel that the organisation needs to look to itself to deliver around the country or to start or advertise more its workings around the country. |
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09 Apr 12 - 12:49 PM (#3335758) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: The Sandman so why were the branches disbanded? and wwere the reasons correct ones and what was the membership in 1972, and what is the membership in 2012 |
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09 Apr 12 - 01:50 PM (#3335792) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: treewind "It would be interesting to discover why Suffolk Folk decided to become independent of the Society" It would. I wasn't involved in Suffolk Folk when that happened, and I'm not sure whether the decision was made by the regional group or by the EFDSS centrally. I may try to find out... |
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09 Apr 12 - 02:11 PM (#3335809) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: Steve Gardham The answers being asked for here are mostly due to historical factors. Like many similar societies involved in preservation of heritage, in the past the failure to inspire a healthy age-spread of participants was the cause of the demise of the regional organisations. They were largely run and peopled by an ageing group of cliquey dancers and when in the early days of the revival young folk club people tried to get involved in many cases this was resisted. Now most of these ageing members have passed on and there is a large generation gap between the younger enthusiasts who run their own things without the help of EFDSS and any of the codgers left. This of course is a gross generalisation and there were many exceptions on a regional level. If you want to read about the EFDSS wars of the 70s and 80s I'm sure there must be other threads on this. The problem now is a serious one of how to get those many youngsters, who are folking away regardless of EFDSS, to get involved. The many new people brought in over the past 10 years are trying really hard to do this after many years of neglect. |
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09 Apr 12 - 03:03 PM (#3335854) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: VirginiaTam I hate the idea of even one penny being spent on a load of consultants paid to come up with some sparkling new name. |
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09 Apr 12 - 03:04 PM (#3335856) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: The Sandman The problem now is a serious one of how to get those many youngsters, who are folking away regardless of EFDSS, to get involved. not just youngsters but people of my age too, i have been folking away for many years regardless of efdss, about 30 years, playing clubs festivals, I even played in a band with John and Katie Howson[recent recipients of EFDSS gold badge] though it appears myself Sue Weir and Paddy Butcher have been airbrushed from their history. When John and Katie, first arrived in Suffolk for a couple of years we all[ paddy john, katie, jan butcher, sue weir, Dick Miles] played in a band called The Suffolk Bell and Horseshoe band, Sue and I later played in a second band with John and Katie, none of this folking was in anyway connected to the EFDSS. Congratulations to John and Katie for their EFDSS GOLD BADGE. |
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09 Apr 12 - 03:58 PM (#3335894) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: Steve Gardham Dick, I think John and Katie have contributed much more to folk music than playing in a band or even several bands. Membership of EFDSS is not a requirement for being awarded the gold badge. |
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09 Apr 12 - 04:16 PM (#3335904) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: Jack Campin The problem now is a serious one of how to get those many youngsters, who are folking away regardless of EFDSS, to get involved. A friend of mine who is on the executive of another folk-related body had a different take on this. So what if the organization and its committee are all old codgers? Young people don't join societies, old codgers do. But there a steady supply of new old codgers. At some point, everybody starts wearing tweed and looking for a society to join. There will always be enough old codgers to run things. Larry Niven constructed an entire science-fictional interplanetary culture around this idea. |
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09 Apr 12 - 04:47 PM (#3335912) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: Steve Gardham Very true, Jack. The younger ones are so busy chipping away at the coalface to worry about the organisation and the boring background details. |
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09 Apr 12 - 04:56 PM (#3335917) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: Richard Bridge First, the last thing that anything needs is a bunch of managementspeak. Second, an organisation needs focus. I don't much mind if it's "English" or "British" although I prefer English as it's what interests me. But I have a little bell going off about a historical merger that did spread the net across GB so maybe it should be British. Third, thanks to a bunch of wankers without access to a dictionary the public perception among the ignorant (as CS said) is that "folk" is Mumford and Sons and some tag is needed to distinguish the single malt from the blend. I'd like to reclaim "folk" since it correlates with other folk arts and AFAIK there is no misuse of the term "folk" in folk dance. Fourth, what nearly destroyed the EFDSS was DEAFASS - not so much Morris and the re-invented Border Morris and re-invented Molly as Playford. The feet that were nimble go carefully now. Oh, and compulsory Scottish dancing in schools. Who can think of the Gay Gordons or the Eightsome Reel without wincing? But sex sells. So Ceilidh and E-Ceilidh needs to be accommodated (much as I hate the central European flavour of say Whapweasel). Fifth - without music and song there will be no dance. |
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09 Apr 12 - 04:57 PM (#3335919) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: The Sandman Steve, I did not say that John and Katies contributions to folk music was restricted to playing in a few bands, that is just your misinterpretation of what I said.I mentioned it because their contribution is an example of people whose work has existed, like mine and many others whose" folking"has existed regardless of the EFDSS. Neither did I say that membership of EFDSS was a requirement for a gold badge. Steve, could you do me a favour? read my posts more carefully,and stop drawing hasty conclusions from my posts , thankyou |
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09 Apr 12 - 06:08 PM (#3335952) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: Steve Gardham Dick, I wasn't having a go at you. There are lots of people on Mudcat who will never have heard of John and Katie and who don't know much about the EFDSS. I was just clarifying. You did very well if you managed your singing and playing without direct or indirect use of EFDSS publications, recordings and other things that derive from the archives. Personally my introduction to longsword and country dancing and playing in a band was being taught by Kathy Mitchell who was a big noise in EFDSS in our area from before I was born. Even as a young lad I made a couple of pilgrimages to C#H to listen to recordings of local singers, before I started collecting myself. I learnt songs from such publications as Marrowbones before digging out old EFDSS books from the library. |
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09 Apr 12 - 06:21 PM (#3335960) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: Jack Campin Second, an organisation needs focus. I don't much mind if it's "English" or "British" although I prefer English as it's what interests me. But I have a little bell going off about a historical merger that did spread the net across GB so maybe it should be British. That would go down about as well in Wales and Scotland as the first three King Edwards put together. |
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09 Apr 12 - 06:26 PM (#3335966) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: The Sandman You did very well if you managed your singing and playing without direct or indirect use of EFDSS publications, recordings and other things that derive from the archives. I have not retired[do instead of did]. Steve,correction, since you seem hellbent on being pedantic, 99 .9 per cent had no connection with the EFDSS,very very little owed itself IN THE WAY OF RECORDINGS AND PUBLICATIONS to the EFDSS. I didnt have to go to c sharphouse to hear traditional singers, I lived in Suffolk. |
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09 Apr 12 - 08:37 PM (#3336016) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: johnadams Dick, John and Katie Howson were awarded their Gold Badges for their enormous contribution to folk music - as collectors, innovators, organisers and music publishers. Connection to or influence by the Society is never a limiting factor. On occasion, Gold Badge awards have been offered to people who have never even heard of the EFDSS. I don't much understand this debate. The EFDSS has improved its ability to meet its stated aims and has gained some credibility in the arts world - enough to be granted half a million quid to get on with a good part of the job. The anonymous Commander Crabbe's mealy mouthed jibes about begging bowls are irrelevant as are his ill considered interpretations of the aims and objectives. I spent ten years on the National Council along with people like Paul Davenport (who posted earlier) trying to improve the Society's working practices and financial position and when we handed the baton over, our successors made a bloody good job of making things even better. Hurrah! For sure there are issues still to be addressed, regionality and London-centricity being a big one, but the Society is building up from the very low base it found itself on a couple of decades ago. It's not easy and the solutions are not to be found in the magic wands that some posters seem to think exist. It's hard work and consists of step after difficult step. As to Selby's original question about changing the name, I suggested to council a decade ago that 'Folk England' would be a good brand to adopt - one which would be inclusive of adopted cultures where 'English' is not. Steve Heap beat us to it with Folk Arts England. Although the Society eventually inherited FAE's Arts Council funding it hasn't inherited the name. So EFDSS it is and it's probably better to stick with it for a while, especially as it has a growing credibility with the funders. |
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10 Apr 12 - 05:23 AM (#3336130) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: The Sandman John,for gods sake, I never said anything about connection of influence. neither did i say they did not deserve the badge, however, if we are going to be accurate they are not innovators,they are collectors, organisers and publishers., of course they deserve a gold badger when I use the word innovator I would use it to describe people like davy graham, or people like peadar long , or sue weir, or peter bond who introduced the clarinet and bass clarinet, or people like sue harris who introduced the oboe,or pyewackett who introduced the bassoon into english folk music |
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10 Apr 12 - 05:23 AM (#3336133) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: The Sandman sorry gold badge, but i am sure they deserve a gold badger too |
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10 Apr 12 - 05:35 AM (#3336143) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: The Sandman Correction,Sue Weir NOT PETERBOND introduced the bass clarinet into English folk music |
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10 Apr 12 - 05:46 AM (#3336146) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: johnadams Dick, I wasn't sure quite what you were saying as it wasn't entirely clear. I don't think anybody would begrudge John and Katy their awards, certainly not you, but I'm still not understanding your point. The EFDSS has an award which recognises excellence and they got it. And _I'd_ give them a Gold Badger if such an animal existed! :-) I think they ARE innovators. They have innovated projects which have had a great deal of effect on communities outside the general folk scene and connected those communities with their local historical music in a way which nobody else did before (excepting of course that there's nothing actually new under the sun). |
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10 Apr 12 - 05:56 AM (#3336150) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: nickp @Jack Campin - dawn is a bit too early for banjos whether they have resonators on the back or not ... for interest the total membership of the British Bluegrass crowd and the Friends of American Old Time Music and Dance (of which I am a member) is probably close to 800 maximum. And I guess both organisations are fairly introvert for the non-member enthusiast unless they happen to be handy with the internet or pick up on a suitable session. Ok folks, back to the EFSS plot... |
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10 Apr 12 - 05:58 AM (#3336151) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: The Sandman OK,I was using the word innovator in a musical sense, I take your point, and yes they deserve a gold badger too. |
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10 Apr 12 - 06:33 AM (#3336162) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: GUEST PS How many folksingers does it take to change a lightbulb ? Five. One to change it, four to sing in harmony with concertina accompaniment how much better the old incandescent filament bulbs were. |
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10 Apr 12 - 06:51 AM (#3336171) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: The Sandman I had many good times in Suffolk pubs with john and katie and ted chaplin, charlie stringer and the rest. I remember one particular occasion at a pub in Earl Soham when Squire Tony Harvey [ a fine singer himself], turned up,with his horse and cab, and insisted i had to sing for him on his way home in his horse and cab, so i sang away, he insisted on giving me fifty pounds a meal and a bottle of whisky, he was a real gentleman, sorry to digress, it has nothing to do with EFDSS and gold badgers, and happened completely out of the remit of the EFDSS,EFDSS were undoubtedly enjoying their genteel tea time dances in c#house whilst people like me were having the pleasure of being locked in suffolk pubs with traditional singers., so Steve I didnt need to do much ferreting about in c#house, althougn I confess i went there once and encountered the charming Diane Easby. |
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10 Apr 12 - 06:54 AM (#3336173) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: Dave Hanson Once again someone [ selby ] has created a controversy where none exists, the sole point being to start an arguement. Dave H |
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10 Apr 12 - 07:00 AM (#3336180) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: selby As the person creating the thread I think that this discussion has run its course there has been good points from both sides of the argument and I thank all the contributors for that. I always wanted to get a feel of wether the EFDSS was for me and if there was something I was not aware off. Sadly it is not for me at the moment, that does not mean i will not support or encourage the organisation. I hope someone from the organisation has seen this and although a very small percentage have discussed the EFDSS I believe there is one really strong point that does require looking at and that is the London perception. I would like to see at Festivals the EFDSS actively recruiting by at very least posters or better still a stall. As the landlord would shout to bring a nights worth of good discussion between friends to an end TIME LADIES AND GENTLEMEN PLEASE!!!!!!!! Keith |
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10 Apr 12 - 11:25 AM (#3336267) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: Michael And no; we are not having a lock in! Mike |
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10 Apr 12 - 05:52 PM (#3336476) Subject: RE: Does the EFDSS need a new name/logo From: Commander Crabbe John My name's Chris Coulter. CC |