Lyr Req: Lully, lulley- Corpus Christi

07 Apr 12 - 05:25 PM (#3335110)
Subject: Lyr Req: Lully, lulley- Corpus Christi
From: GUEST,beginnerstudent

Hello, Mudcat!
I need your help.

I am currently researching the Corpus Christi Carol, which first appears in Richard Hill's Commonplace Book, Balliol College MS 354. I have access to the MS online (http://image.ox.ac.uk/show?collection=balliol&manuscript=ms354) but have been unable to locate the actual text within the MS.

I read somewhere that it is on folio 165v, but most of my sources do not cite a page/folio number, and I do not know if 165v is correct. I tried looking based on that citation and didn't find the text of the carol. Most of my sources do not cite a folio number, the only cite the MS itself. It would be very helpful to me to be able to find the actual folio, but I'm not sure how, as it is organized on the website by page numbers (presumably not the same as folio numbers) and is not searchable, as it is in the original hand and is an image, not a text.

Do any of you have any tips for me?

Thanks a lot.
--student

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07 Apr 12 - 05:54 PM (#3335129)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lully, lulley- Corpus Christi
From: McGrath of Harlow

Here's a version of it.

You could use these words as a basis for searching for the version you are looking for.

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07 Apr 12 - 06:26 PM (#3335143)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lully, lulley- Corpus Christi
From: Bonnie Shaljean

There's another thread about it here:

The falcon hath taken the maid away

http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=141938#3268740

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07 Apr 12 - 09:32 PM (#3335205)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lully, lulley- Corpus Christi
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)

student

It's at the top of page 352 in the numbering shown in the index pages (press Show All and navigate to p352). The carol takes up about the top quarter of the folio. The modern rendering is in the link I posted in the thread that Bonnie linked above.(Dyboski's Songs, Carols and other Miscellaneous Poems..., EETS).

Mick

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07 Apr 12 - 10:08 PM (#3335210)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lully, lulley- Corpus Christi
From: GUEST,leeneia

Mick, you are wonderful! How did you do that?

It was such a thrill for me to see the original of this famous poem, one I studied 44 years ago. I couldn't decipher most of it, to tell you the truth, but anybody can certainly read enough to tell that that is the real McCoy.

Beginnerstudent, I hope you are coming back to get Mick's information.

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08 Apr 12 - 08:09 AM (#3335317)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lully, lulley- Corpus Christi
From: Susan of DT

In the Digital Tradition:
corpus1
corpus2

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08 Apr 12 - 09:05 AM (#3335336)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lully, lulley- Corpus Christi
From: GUEST,leeneia

Yes, yes, there are modern reproductions. The question is, where is it in Balliol College MS 354, and Mick has answered that.

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08 Apr 12 - 09:19 AM (#3335340)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lully, lulley- Corpus Christi
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)

leenia

The clue to finding the pages is in the description of the ms. There's a long description of the folitation, culminating in the final statement that the foliation runs: 1-4, i-cxliii, 8 unnumbered leaves(7 blank), cxliv-clxxviii,179-241,249-253 (slightly paraphrased - the page is an image so I couldn't copy and paste here).

The 8 unnumbered leaves are easy to see in the View All thumbnails, at pp295-308. Then p309 is cxliv (ie 144recto) in the pagination. Then going forward from there to clxv is a simple matter of counting up (165-144)=21 leaves = 42 page numbers from 309 = 351, which will be the recto page and 352 the verso page we need.

As for deciphering it, I think if you spend 5 minutes with the ms page and the modern rendering from Dybowski's book you'll be able to read most of it without difficulty; the letter forms and abbreviations are fairly easy to see.

Mick

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08 Apr 12 - 10:12 AM (#3335355)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lully, lulley- Corpus Christi
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)

I should mention that the original numbers are at the top right of the recto pages, though the roman numbering is not so easy to decipher. So if you look at the top right of p351 the 4 rightmost characters give the number c lxv. (gap after the c).

Mick

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08 Apr 12 - 02:48 PM (#3335441)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lully, lulley- Corpus Christi
From: GUEST,leeneia

But I read the description of the MS, and I still didn't find it. So I'm still impressed.

The handwriting is beautiful. Imagine writing all that with quill and ink.

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08 Apr 12 - 04:01 PM (#3335460)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lully, lulley- Corpus Christi
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)

leeneia

(sorry for misspelling earlier - I should get it right by now!)

There are whole lot of lovely mss there (click the Early Manuscripts at Oxford University link at the top left of the pages to get a full list).

You might like to have a look at: Selden Carol Book , whichincludes the Agincourt song (Our king went forth to Normandy - quite readable) - folio17v (the numbering is in this form for this ms). This has music too.

Or the Anglo-Saxon Caedmon ms Lovely script and pictures too!

When I've some time I'll certainly have a look at a few more.


Mick

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08 Apr 12 - 05:16 PM (#3335483)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lully, lulley- Corpus Christi
From: GUEST,beginnerstudent

wow, thank you SO MUCH. I am so thankful. This is a huge help to me! Thanks again!
--student

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08 Apr 12 - 05:35 PM (#3335488)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lully, lulley- Corpus Christi
From: GUEST,beginnerstudent

Now that we have found it, I have a question.

At the very end, at the last line of text, before the explicit, the burden (lully..) has a little mark next to it on the right, something not on the other lines of text. What is this? Does it mean repeat, or "fin," or something else? does anyone know?

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09 Apr 12 - 10:22 AM (#3335707)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lully, lulley- Corpus Christi
From: GUEST,leeneia

I dunno, it's baffling! One thing I do notice - the second part of it, which looks like a 2, is identifical to the r in 'orchard.' Since it has an r and comes at the end of a song, could it be a repeat sign?

I hope somebody knows and will tell us.

By the way, welcome to the Mudcat.

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10 Apr 12 - 07:59 AM (#3336201)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lully, lulley- Corpus Christi
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)

I don't know the answer to this and Dybowski's transcrip makes no mention of it. It doesn't look like a paragraph mark. It they are letters, the first two letter look like r and i.

If it was a repeat indication it could be related to reddo/reddere - to repeat: reddite or redditote as imperatives.

I did also wonder if it was an abbreviation for RIP (relating to the Corpus Christi of the last line): The horizonal of the last character over the i can signify in, but the remaining flourish at the end doesn't seem to be any relative of a letter p.


I can't see anything like it in the few palaeography books available to me (mostly court hand). The problem is that there are a lot of letter forms and a lot of abbreviations and contractions. You probably need to find someone familiar with the manuscripts. You could try and email to the library ([e-mail], given with the online text). They may know themselves or can probably find out for you. (If you do find out, come back and let us know!).

Mick

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11 Apr 12 - 04:41 AM (#3336618)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lully, lulley- Corpus Christi
From: GUEST,Balliol Archivist

It's '& c', i.e. et cetera. The & is not an ampersand but a version of a common abbreviation for 'and' that usually looks rather like a division sign, a dot on each side of a parallel or slanting line.
- Anna Sander, Balliol College Archvies & Manuscripts.

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11 Apr 12 - 07:22 AM (#3336661)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lully, lulley- Corpus Christi
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)

Anna

Thanks so much for coming by and helping us out.

Now that you've told us, I can see the relation to the first sign shown here: National Archives Latin palaeography - abbreviations.

Thanks again

Mick

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11 Apr 12 - 10:04 AM (#3336706)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lully, lulley- Corpus Christi
From: GUEST,leeneia

Yes, thank you Anna and Mick. That was interesting.

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19 Apr 12 - 11:07 PM (#3340677)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lully, lulley- Corpus Christi
From: GUEST

More questions:
How do we know that "make" is "mate"?
Does anyone know what the first documented melody was for this text (or one that evolved from it)?

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20 Apr 12 - 03:43 AM (#3340715)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lully, lulley- Corpus Christi
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)

The first question is easy - from a dictionary. Here's a link to an entry for the work in a Middle English dictionary online: make.

But it still appears in the OED: make Obs ex dial from OE gemaca (+ more etymolog) 4. Of human beings:A mate , consort; a husband or wife, lover or mistress OE.


I have to go off now, but I'll try and come back to the second question later.


Mick

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20 Apr 12 - 04:21 AM (#3340723)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lully, lulley- Corpus Christi
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)

I should say that OED also gives the other ME senses of make: an equal, peer, match; a mate, companion (occas. opponent a fighter is matched with); an animal's mate.


Mick

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20 Apr 12 - 09:04 AM (#3340809)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lully, lulley- Corpus Christi
From: GUEST,leeneia

The sign at the end of the writing means 'etc.' That raises the possibility that there was more to the poem at the time of writing. Perhaps someday some lucky scholar will come across a longer version, and that would be like finding another Bach cantata.

We can dream, can't we?

Guest, I don't believe anybody has ever known what melody was used with those words in the olden days. There aren't many works of this nature (in English and of the common people) in manuscripts at all, and when they were written down, the music was usually not included. Probably the scribe had no musical training and had no idea how to do it.

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20 Apr 12 - 01:02 PM (#3340916)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lully, lulley- Corpus Christi
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)

As far as the music goes, as leeneia says, there is no known (AFAIK) melody for the version from Richard Hill's book. (There are several modern settings though).

The related (or derived) song usually starting Down in yon forest there stands a hall does have a tune that was collected by Vaughan-Williams in Derbyshire in 1908/9: Corpus Christi Carol. (It was published with an extra verse 3 (In that bed there lies a knight/Whose wounds do bleed by day and knight) in Eight Carols, 1919). There are other related texts with titles like Over Yonder's A Field.

There are some mss with tunes - see my post of 8 April, 04:01pm above, which links the Selden ms which contains the well-known Agincourt Carol (Our king went forth to Normandy).

leeneia - I'm not sure that the ampersand at the end of the ms version meant there were more verses; I'd assumed it was just meaning the rest of the refrain after the lully... (However, that was just my assumption; you could be right!).


Mick

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21 Apr 12 - 10:37 AM (#3341292)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lully, lulley- Corpus Christi
From: GUEST,leeneia

I agree with you, but there remains the small but alluring possibility that there's more to it somewhere. And if we didn't love small but alluring possibilities, nobody would ever buy a lottery ticket.

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