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16 Apr 12 - 11:22 PM (#3339347) Subject: BS: Steal no More From: Bert OK, So we (people who did not originate from America) have stolen practically ALL of the land (Top side) of the land. Let us, now, vow that we will not steal any more of North America. That means that EVERYTHING below ground, still belongs to the people that we stole the surface from (sorry about the bad grammar there). That means that all of the oil, all of the coal, all of the minerals left, still belong to the "Indians/Native Americans" and that from this day forth full and complete payment be made to them for these resources. If you are with me, I am, starting a website, stealnomore.org. I will be asking Max to donate a copy of the Mudcat Engine to the cause. Let me have your thoughts on this. Your friend, Bert. |
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17 Apr 12 - 12:13 AM (#3339360) Subject: RE: BS: Steal no More From: katlaughing I was listening to some NDN radio last night. They happened to have a sticker up which said, "Welcome to America, Now speak Cherokee" as seen HERE also. I agree with the principle and idea, but you get into the whole how far back do we go to make reparations to anyone for any thing? You will also get some folks who would ask if the Original Americans would even have used the resources the way the majority white population has. Since it doesn't really mix with some of their cherish the earth philosophy that we know of, they may not have, though some do, now. And, what of those European descendants whose families came here in the 1600s or even earlier? Are they responsible for their ancestors actions, still? What of all the people and families of all races who would be effected by this, negatively or positively in the here and now? You know where my heart lies, Bertdarlin', but in this I think it could be a tough row to hoe. I will support you, but will also do what I can as a desktop activist by signing petitions, writing congresspeople, etc. AND, boycotting certain things such as Liam Neeson's new movie "Grey." According to one NDN website, four wolves were really killed and butchered for the actors to eat. Supposedly Neeson went back for seconds. There is some discussion HERE as to its veracity. I wish everyone would remember "Mitakuye Oyasin" (we are all related) and treat each other with respect, etc. Good luck to you, Bert, luvyakat |
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17 Apr 12 - 01:13 AM (#3339370) Subject: RE: BS: Steal no More From: Jack the Sailor Since you ask, I think it is horse shit. I didn't steal a damned thing. I was born in 1958. And No I don't think a person with Cherokee or Huron or any other native blood has any more rights than I do by virtue of their blood. We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,[note 1] promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. Everyone has the same rights and responsibilities. Most people came here with nothing. My people were exploited too. Get over it. Live with it. If you want to help the great great grand children of people who were exploited, gamble in a casino, buy soul food. Support a small business. Love thy neighbor as thy self. |
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17 Apr 12 - 01:22 AM (#3339373) Subject: RE: BS: Steal no More From: Rapparee Find some jobs to help end the 40%+ unemployment rates on most rez. And the American Indian mined both flint and copper. Moreover, there is growing evidence (e.g., Clovis-style points in France and Maryland) that the migration of peoples into the Americas might have been a lot more complicated than we've thought. |
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17 Apr 12 - 01:33 AM (#3339376) Subject: RE: BS: Steal no More From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Well one thing for damn sure: the land above and below ground sure doesn't belong to the Bankers, who use it for collateral, for their bogus loans, it DON'T belong to the oil companies, it don't belong to the government, and it don't belong to the 'regulatory commissions' and their unelected Czars!!!!! Oh well, so much for the two parties who think they do! GfS |
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17 Apr 12 - 02:06 AM (#3339387) Subject: RE: BS: Steal no More From: GUEST,999 We're all gonna end up living in the Olduvai Gorge. |
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17 Apr 12 - 07:24 AM (#3339467) Subject: RE: BS: Steal no More From: Bert It isn't about reparations Katmeluv. It isn't about giving back anything and it isn't about who stole what in the first place. What I am saying is "Don't take any more". You are right Kat when you say "What of all the people and families of all races who would be effected by this, negatively or positively in the here and now?" It would certainly have a negative effect on some of us if we are not allowed to steal more of these resources. Stealing often has a positive effect on the thief. That doesn't make it right. Jack, Just 'cos you didn't steal anything, doesn't give anyone else the right to keep stealing. It has nothing to do with our constitution or our declaration of independence or our bill of rights. It is about how much more of the land are we going to take. Rap, you say "Find some jobs to help end the 40%+ unemployment rates on most rez" Perhaps those resources would help to do that. For us to steal more of them certainly won't help. |
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17 Apr 12 - 07:26 AM (#3339470) Subject: RE: BS: Steal no More From: GUEST,999 I agree with that, Bert. |
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17 Apr 12 - 08:32 AM (#3339495) Subject: RE: BS: Steal no More From: Wesley S Bert - I admire your ideals - but you can't possibly believe that this movement has ANY chance of being successful. Do you have a concept of what you are proposing? Thousands of government agencies and businesses would all have to agree to your proposal. Talk about tilting at windmills. Why not put your energy into something that has a chance of success? In my view you might be morally correct but it will be a big waste of your time. Having said that - go ahead.Best of luck. PS - My great-grandmother was Ojibway. Let me know when the reparation payments start. |
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17 Apr 12 - 11:42 AM (#3339550) Subject: RE: BS: Steal no More From: Uncle_DaveO As a premise for "Steal no More", Bert said: we (people who did not originate from America) have stolen practically ALL of the land (Top side) of the land. What line of reasoning suggests to you that only the "top side" of the land was stolen? US law is the descendant of English common law, and, other things being equal, ownership of property includes whatever is above a given property and also below it, to the center of the earth. Sorry, Bert, but the underground assets you speak of were already stolen a long time ago. So you're about four hundred years too late. Dave Oesterreich |
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17 Apr 12 - 11:49 AM (#3339552) Subject: RE: BS: Steal no More From: Bert No Dave, Here Mineral rights are separate. |
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17 Apr 12 - 11:58 AM (#3339553) Subject: RE: BS: Steal no More From: Jack the Sailor Bert, in some states they are, some states mineral right aren't separate. That is part of the problem with your scheme. There are vast differences in the treatment of the natives depending on the state or province. I am not stealing a damned thing, nor do I plan to. I have to say that while not unique, your point of view seems very odd. The people who might have had a claim to what you say is being stolen are long gone. Many, probably the vast majority of their descendants, such as Wesley, are often well mixed into the current population. |
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17 Apr 12 - 12:42 PM (#3339573) Subject: RE: BS: Steal no More From: Bert I'm not talking about what has gone Jack, I am talking about what is left. |
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17 Apr 12 - 12:52 PM (#3339579) Subject: RE: BS: Steal no More From: Jack the Sailor Left for who??? Wesley who is one 8th Native or me who is 16th forced to come to this continent on a Royal Navy press gang? and more than half forced to North America due to exploitation and poverty? Does 7/8 of Wesley have to pay into a fund to compensate the current legal owners of the mineral rights so that those rights can be awarded proportionately to 1/8 of Wesley? How about Michael Jordan? What part of the mineral rights belong to him? Your idea is misguided. You might as well sue God for hurricane damage or small pox. |
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17 Apr 12 - 12:53 PM (#3339580) Subject: RE: BS: Steal no More From: wysiwyg Let me have your thoughts on this. My thoughts are that you are describibg what I call perfect Ally Behavior, in my work. It reminds me of the smartest thing I ever heard an anti-racism workshop presenter say: "Whatever your heritage-- when all you see is white people around you, it just oughtta make ya kinda itchy." She may not have meant what YOU mean or what SUSAN means, but it's in the same boat, eh. It's also related to reparations work in which I am involved personally, with an anticipated bequest. ~Susan |
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17 Apr 12 - 05:13 PM (#3339702) Subject: RE: BS: Steal no More From: Q (Frank Staplin) You are proposing to reverse evolution. Natives who survive the invasions of more advanced forms die, conform, are absorbed or at best marginally survive on the fringes. My native portion was absorbed. Allelujah! |
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17 Apr 12 - 05:59 PM (#3339723) Subject: RE: BS: Steal no More From: Bert Left for who??? Precisely Jack. |
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17 Apr 12 - 06:49 PM (#3339742) Subject: RE: BS: Steal no More From: gnu Soooo... should the resources be nationalized and should the government take over expolration and developement of mining those resources for the benefit of all? Or should the mining industry be driven by profits which the government can tax and collect royalties to redistribute the wealth of the resources? The government has proven to be a bumbling bunch of idiots so far on just about everything whereas the mining companies, the power companies, the high tech companies, the agriculture companies, the manufacturing companies... have added value to the economy. Lofty ideals, well meant no doubt, but impractical. Communism just doesn't work unless you wanna work in the fields planting crops and sleeping in a hut. |
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17 Apr 12 - 07:28 PM (#3339757) Subject: RE: BS: Steal no More From: Bert What has nationalization got to do with it? We just say that anything that is left underground belongs to the tribes. What they do with it is their problem. It has nothing to do with communism, so don't keep throwing in red herrings as an excuse for us to steal the rest. |
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17 Apr 12 - 07:58 PM (#3339773) Subject: RE: BS: Steal no More From: wysiwyg I want to address the Reparations issue as it has been raised here. (And this is info, not argument.) "Reparation" is is not always just a dollar-thing, but can also be a behavior-thing and a priority-thing. For example, the day I learned that my mother had died, yes I was shocked into pausing in my particular anti-racism ministry for a whole day. But when I had the very first thought about that AR ministry, I stopped what I was doing and went straight to the computer to do the next step in that work, which had been left pending. And then I simply kept it a priority amongst the funeral planning (women juggle well), and the grieving that followed, because in my world I know babies who are dying; "care for the living" trumps "care of the dead," in my book, whenever it can, and in this world I know, most of the mothers of these darker babies do not have the choices that most of the mothers of the paler babies have. And my choices, in that, are a form of Reparation. Reparation does not necessarily equate to Guilt-- it's not an emotional thing. For me, it's: a commitment made in logic and then simply and unflinchingly carried out by will. Because in my circles, that is Ally Behavior. ~Susan |