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16 Jun 12 - 07:48 AM (#3364115) Subject: Folklore: Colloquial and Idiomatic Phrases From: Allan C. In a recent thread Big Al Whittle used the phrase, "Nick the lead off the church roof ...". I find descriptive phrases like this one to be among the most wonderful elements of human speech. Such things also set me to wondering as to how they came to be. For instance: Was there a time when roofs were made of lead? Why? Was there a time when lead was quite valuable or is the point of the phrase that it had only a little value? Every language seems to contain idioms and colloquialisms that so perfectly illustrate an idea. My wife, Carmen, often shares some of the German idioms that she knows. They are fabulously descriptive and often hilarious. What treasures! And so I ask that each of you pay attention to such phrases as you may encounter in conversation, either your own or in things overheard. Please note them and post them here along with any explanations as to meaning and provenance that you may wish to offer. Thanks! |
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16 Jun 12 - 08:20 AM (#3364123) Subject: RE: Folklore: Colloquial and Idiomatic Phrases From: Jack Campin Stealing lead off church roofs is more common in the UK now than it's ever been. Somebody did it to the church in our village (near Edinburgh) a few months ago. The church is now beyond repair and will be demolished shortly. The lead is used for sealing the joins and ridges. Almost all churches use it (the exceptions use copper or (rarely) aluminium - copper is more common in Continental Europe than it is here). |
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16 Jun 12 - 10:00 AM (#3364155) Subject: RE: Folklore: Colloquial and Idiomatic Phrases From: Gutcher "The fat soo"s erse is aye weel creashed" rude but true---in English ---"to he who has shall be given" or words to that effect. |
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16 Jun 12 - 10:38 AM (#3364170) Subject: RE: Folklore: Colloquial and Idiomatic Phrases From: GUEST,John Foxen Once upon a time a staple joke of comedians/folk singers was: "My father wanted to be here to see me tonight but sadly he's up above.. nicking the lead off the roof." Is that phrase now so old and out of fashion I can start using it again? |
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16 Jun 12 - 10:45 AM (#3364175) Subject: RE: Folklore: Colloquial and Idiomatic Phrases From: DMcG Idiomatic phrases can be tricky. It's embarrassing how long it took me to realise that 'burning the candle at both ends' wasn't just an weird phrase but meant using a candle normally at both ends of the day. |
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16 Jun 12 - 11:04 AM (#3364182) Subject: RE: Folklore: Colloquial and Idiomatic Phrases From: s&r My understanding is that early cheap domestic candles were made from rushes or similar, folded in half (like a V shape) and clamped vertically into a holder. One arm would normally be lit: two for special occasions. Stu |
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16 Jun 12 - 11:09 AM (#3364185) Subject: RE: Folklore: Colloquial and Idiomatic Phrases From: Ross Campbell Lead sheet was and is an expensive material. Its use in country houses and churches reflects the status of these buildings when they were built. It was used not only for flashings and valleys, but in many cases covered the whole surface, folding and soldering enabling a weather-tight seal. The problem with the current spate of thefts of metal from roofs is that the reward for the thieves, though enhanced by the high price for scrap, is insignificant compared with the cost of replacement and repairs to damage which have to be met by the owners of the buildings, who even if insured are often not in a position to meet sudden expenses like that - hence the closure of affected churches and the abandonment of other listed buildings. A handsome copper-roofed church here in Fleetwood (built 1950s) has suffered a series of thefts like this in recent weeks despite being in a prominent, open position. Ross |
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16 Jun 12 - 11:49 AM (#3364204) Subject: RE: Folklore: Colloquial and Idiomatic Phrases From: Geoff the Duck I had never considered burning the candle at both ends to mean anything other than setting light to both ends of a candle. A quick web search brings up http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/burning-the-candle-at-both-ends.html which reckons the meaning "both ends of the day" is one added fairly recently. I also found an interesting video - Buring a candle at both ends. Quack! GtD. |
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16 Jun 12 - 01:28 PM (#3364231) Subject: RE: Folklore: Colloquial and Idiomatic Phrases From: Marje Theft of lead from roofs of churches and other buildings does indeed still happen and can be serious - here's a report of an incident that took place just a couple of days ago: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-18457703 Marje |
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16 Jun 12 - 02:31 PM (#3364252) Subject: RE: Folklore: Colloquial and Idiomatic Phrases From: Q (Frank Staplin) Allen C, I think there is a thread (below the line?) on this subject. I remember posting "too much sugar for a dime" and posts of others. Not sure how to find or link it. Stealing lead has been partly replaced by stealing copper wire, etc., because of the high price copper commands. |
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16 Jun 12 - 03:01 PM (#3364267) Subject: RE: Folklore: Colloquial and Idiomatic Phrases From: Bill D I am more interested in the use of "nick" "cop" and other slang & idiom for 'stealing' than for why lead is stolen. Sometimes I wonder if those who use the slang terms for various things can translate for those of us who may not be familiar with the idiom. |
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16 Jun 12 - 03:10 PM (#3364273) Subject: RE: Folklore: Colloquial and Idiomatic Phrases From: Q (Frank Staplin) "Lift" is common, also hook, swipe, pinch, boost, five finger discount. |
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16 Jun 12 - 04:11 PM (#3364290) Subject: RE: Folklore: Colloquial and Idiomatic Phrases From: fat B****rd Not to mention 'filch'. |
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16 Jun 12 - 06:50 PM (#3364346) Subject: RE: Folklore: Colloquial and Idiomatic Phrases From: ollaimh when the laird of the o'neils was striking his blow for freedom at the battle of red ford, he was able to defeat the more modern english armies by introducing lead musket or arquebuss balls to ireland for the first time. he convinced queen elizabeth tthat he was inporting the lead for the roof of his mansion. there was no irish source of lead at the time. he then stole his own roof to make musket balls. unfortunately the rebellion was shortlived but the victory at red ford does deserve a song. i have never heard one. the price of base metals has risen and created a lot of theft. a few yeaqrs ago in ontarion a statue in life sized bronze of a famous ulrainian poet was stolen and mostly melted down for the scrap value. they stopped the scrape dealer with the head left. i hope thay charged the bastard. who buys a full sized bronze statue and thinks it was legally acquired for scrap. it was worth a couple of hundred thousand dollars, the scrap value was about ten grand. few businesses are lower than that |
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17 Jun 12 - 03:17 AM (#3364449) Subject: RE: Folklore: Colloquial and Idiomatic Phrases From: DMcG Thanks for the feedback on that candle - especially the video! It does highlight the oddities of idioms, though. I doubt if many people use the phrase 'burning the candle at both ends' nowadays to mean spendthrift. There's an obvious speculative path how it could change from meaning 'spendthright' to 'working/partying a lot', but it would be speculation on my part. The copper was stolen from my church roof about 3 months ago. Approximate value £100 - thin sheets, cutting the centre out of a smallish number of panels. Approximate cost to replace: £7000, since the whole lot had to be done. |
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17 Jun 12 - 04:09 AM (#3364456) Subject: RE: Folklore: Colloquial and Idiomatic Phrases From: Marje I think there have always been many slang words for theft; partly as a sort of euphemism, trying to find a word that sound less unpleasant than "steal", and also because if, among a given group of people, they keep changing the words used in relation to crime, they can have conversations when they're unlikely to be understood if overheard. That's always been the way in the criminal underworld, and lightweight "nicking" or "pinching" is so common that such terms are widely used by everyone. Marje |
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17 Jun 12 - 04:37 AM (#3364459) Subject: RE: Folklore: Colloquial and Idiomatic Phrases From: GUEST,Raggytash There's a lot of waffle about various thefts, not what Allen requires me thinks, how about " a face like a bag of spanners" to describe someone somewhat less than beautiful? |
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17 Jun 12 - 11:11 AM (#3364546) Subject: RE: Folklore: Colloquial and Idiomatic Phrases From: Allan C. Spot on, Raggytash! |
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17 Jun 12 - 01:14 PM (#3364590) Subject: RE: Folklore: Colloquial and Idiomatic Phrases From: Geoff the Duck To follow the theme... " a face like the back end of a bus" He had a face like a bulldog chewing a wasp! What sort of stuff is required? Are we looking for things such as "About as much use as a chocolate teapot." Quack! GtD. |
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17 Jun 12 - 01:28 PM (#3364595) Subject: RE: Folklore: Colloquial and Idiomatic Phrases From: Q (Frank Staplin) She lacked a few cells of having a brain. He was behind the door when brains were passed out. He was a few bricks short of a load. |
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17 Jun 12 - 01:50 PM (#3364605) Subject: RE: Folklore: Colloquial and Idiomatic Phrases From: Jim McLean I always thought the word 'Copt' came from the Yiddish for 'got'. The German 'gehapt' is pronounced a bit like 'Copt'' in parts of Bavaria and I find Yiddish very close to Bavarian. |
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17 Jun 12 - 01:56 PM (#3364611) Subject: RE: Folklore: Colloquial and Idiomatic Phrases From: Crowhugger Along Q's line, "a bubble off plumb." |
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17 Jun 12 - 03:05 PM (#3364644) Subject: RE: Folklore: Colloquial and Idiomatic Phrases From: GUEST,Guest Phil as old as God's dog ..when God was a boy.. make hey while the sun shines taking a Day for the Queen/King Let's have a Slow Monday ..and countless other sayings that have deserted me! Will add as they come back to me. |
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17 Jun 12 - 03:35 PM (#3364668) Subject: RE: Folklore: Colloquial and Idiomatic Phrases From: Q (Frank Staplin) In the pink Fit as a fiddle Bright-eyed and bushy tailed Many in this vein. |
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17 Jun 12 - 10:22 PM (#3364774) Subject: RE: Folklore: Colloquial and Idiomatic Phrases From: Effsee A face like a well skelped erse... |
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17 Jun 12 - 10:39 PM (#3364777) Subject: RE: Folklore: Colloquial and Idiomatic Phrases From: katlaughing I think it is THIS ONE you are thinking of Q. Plus, there were two subsequent threads. Always good to gather more, though, and still loads of fun! |
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18 Jun 12 - 03:53 AM (#3364818) Subject: RE: Folklore: Colloquial and Idiomatic Phrases From: Geoff the Duck Do we need some form of attribution - whose local idiom? Which Country? What the user actually intends by to comment? Quack! GtD. |
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18 Jun 12 - 04:05 AM (#3364819) Subject: RE: Folklore: Colloquial and Idiomatic Phrases From: Nigel Parsons Raggytash: how about " a face like a bag of spanners" to describe someone somewhat less than beautiful? Of course, 'spanners' can be appreciative as well. "They called her 'Spanners', 'cos one look and you could feel your nuts tighten!" |
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18 Jun 12 - 04:08 AM (#3364821) Subject: RE: Folklore: Colloquial and Idiomatic Phrases From: Tootler Birmingham Screwdriver! |
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18 Jun 12 - 04:52 AM (#3364831) Subject: RE: Folklore: Colloquial and Idiomatic Phrases From: Sailor Ron God's mercy like Pilling Moss is endless. |
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18 Jun 12 - 06:07 AM (#3364847) Subject: RE: Folklore: Colloquial and Idiomatic Phrases From: Allan C. Geoff the Duck asked some good questions: Do we need some form of attribution - whose local idiom? Which Country? Yes, that would be useful. What the user actually intends by to comment? Yes. For instance: In the southern USA an old expression is, "barking up the wrong tree". I think this refers to 'coon hunting and a dog that isn't indicating the tree where the raccoon is actually hiding. But in common usage it can be used to describe an erroneous or useless action by someone. Are we looking for things such as "About as much use as a chocolate teapot."? Yes. But please don't limit yourself to insults such as have already been covered in other threads. Thanks! |
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18 Jun 12 - 07:05 AM (#3364869) Subject: RE: Folklore: Colloquial and Idiomatic Phrases From: GUEST,Ebor_Fiddler She had a face like the back end of a cow in action. (Insult?) |
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18 Jun 12 - 08:15 AM (#3364899) Subject: RE: Folklore: Colloquial and Idiomatic Phrases From: Jim McLean A face like bursled totty (west of Scotland pronunciation of potatoe or tattle). When potatoes are mashed and then put in front of the fire to brown or "bursle', the resultant effect is not very complimentary to one's visage. |
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18 Jun 12 - 08:38 AM (#3364909) Subject: RE: Folklore: Colloquial and Idiomatic Phrases From: clueless don Gutcher, on 16 Jun 12 - 10:00 AM, wrote "The fat soo"s erse is aye weel creashed" rude but true---in English ---"to he who has shall be given" or words to that effect. I heard this as "Them as has, gits". Regarding stealing lead from church roofs, I remember a Peter Sellers movie where that figured into the plot. Can't remember the title offhand. Possibly "Heavens Above!"? Don |
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18 Jun 12 - 10:41 AM (#3364961) Subject: RE: Folklore: Colloquial and Idiomatic Phrases From: Gutcher "As gleg as a Kilmaurs whittle"---in English---"as sharp as a knife" Kilmaurs having been famous for its cutlery long before Sheffield. |
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18 Jun 12 - 11:32 AM (#3364992) Subject: RE: Folklore: Colloquial and Idiomatic Phrases From: Rob Naylor "Barking up the wrong tree" certainly isn't peculiar to the southern USA. It's been in common use in the UK for a very long time. One from my Yorkshire youth is: " 'Ee were framin' 'issen like a berserk mole". |
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18 Jun 12 - 12:03 PM (#3365005) Subject: RE: Folklore: Colloquial and Idiomatic Phrases From: Bill D " to describe someone somewhat less than beautiful?" Looks like they'd been french-kissed by a Mack truck... |
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18 Jun 12 - 03:15 PM (#3365112) Subject: RE: Folklore: Colloquial and Idiomatic Phrases From: Q (Frank Staplin) Expressions in the U.S. are difficult to localize since they spread quickly, i. e. the one already given, 'barking up the wrong tree' I have heard from Texas to Canada to Hawai'i. Of course it has been around a long time. A few that seem not to have spread very far- I'm fixin' to go to town (seems centered in Texas) If he was dying of thirst I wouldn't give him the dew off my dong (Texas). It don't make no nevermind. Texas, Oklahoma. Said of a man with a bearded face, hippie era- To determine his sex, you would have to turn him up and blow on the fluff. Texas. Too much sugar for a dime. Georgia. You have to hire it up. Said of a food that needs seasoning. Georgia. |
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18 Jun 12 - 04:12 PM (#3365137) Subject: RE: Folklore: Colloquial and Idiomatic Phrases From: Carole Bannister A couple of my favourates, as spoken by an old farmer aquaintance are "He went down like a shot steer" "wider than a whale's yawn" "Gone like a long dog" just wish I could remember more of them. |
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19 Jun 12 - 03:00 AM (#3365331) Subject: RE: Folklore: Colloquial and Idiomatic Phrases From: Darowyn Rod Naylor's use of the Yorkshire "Framing" which means tackling a task in hand, reminds me of another saying, "Tha's framin' like a man made o' band!" Translated that's "You are doing that like someone made of string!"- I.E. You're hopeless! Cheers Dave |
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19 Jun 12 - 05:11 AM (#3365364) Subject: RE: Folklore: Colloquial and Idiomatic Phrases From: doc.tom About as much use as: An ashtray on a motor bike A chocolate mantlepiece A lock on a 24-hour shop A crash helmet on a kamikaze pilot A donkey's fart in a bottle |