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27 Jun 12 - 05:21 PM (#3368831) Subject: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: Jack the Sailor Cartoon that explains where US "conservatism" has led. |
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27 Jun 12 - 05:40 PM (#3368843) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: gnu While the cartoon may seem to be US bashing by some, it is entirely true, BUT it isn't just in the US. This form of fuck you, I'm okay is practiced in more than the US (yes, I know you know that). $$$... all $$$ and subjugation of the poor. And it's sickening. I was astounded and appalled when my nephew told me what it costs to send his lads to uni here in Canada. A sickening waste of a tremendous (the most?) resource for greed. |
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27 Jun 12 - 05:44 PM (#3368846) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: Jack the Sailor Public University tuition is about 1/10th what it is here for similar schools. 1/20 of private "Universities". |
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27 Jun 12 - 06:02 PM (#3368850) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: Bobert Like I have said, the revolution is on... It's like a low grade fever now but it is on... Every ingredient has or is about to be stirred into the mix... Great cartoon... Not funny. however... B~ |
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27 Jun 12 - 06:16 PM (#3368852) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: Sawzaw Dang, I wonder why so many students come here from foreign countries to go to universities in this conservative shithole? The number of international students at colleges and universities in the United States increased by five percent to 723,277 during the 2010/11 academic year. |
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27 Jun 12 - 06:26 PM (#3368857) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: Jack the Sailor Oh you think that they come here because it is cheap? |
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27 Jun 12 - 06:27 PM (#3368858) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: bobad "Dang, I wonder why so many students come here from foreign countries to go to universities in this conservative shithole?" How many come from the nordic countries that aren't on scholarship? |
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27 Jun 12 - 06:52 PM (#3368861) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: Don Firth When I attended the University of Washington, a state supported university, in 1949 to 1952, I paid about $53.00 per quarter -- $159.00 per year – in tuition. Books and supplies ran about $20.00 or $25.00 per quarter, or an additional $60.00 to $75.00 per year. I went three quarters per year and worked during the summers. When I returned to the U. of W. in 1956 to attend the School of Music, tuition had gone up to around $300.00 per year. Books and supplies were a bit more expensive than in the early Fifties. And then there was the cost of the voice and guitar lessons I was taking on the outside (at the time, the U. of W. School of Music didn't have a guitar department like they do now--I may have kicked the door open a bit when I was there--so I took lessons from Bud Hern and Bob Flanary, both classic guitarists; and I felt my voice teachers, Edna Bianchi and George Hotchkiss Street, were better for my purposes than the U. of W. staff voice teachers). When I went to the Cornish College of the Arts in the early 1960s, tuition there was around $500.00 a year. Cornish is a privately run school, no state subsidies, but the music instruction was great! It was more like a conservatory than a university music department. At both the U-Dubya and Cornish, I worked my way through school, paid my own tuition as I went, and emerged debt free. I just looked up the current BASIC cost of going to the University of Washington these days. Tuition & Fees - $10,346 per year. Books & Supplies - $1,035 average per year. These figures do not include such things as dormitory rent or regular living expenses, which, if one lived in the dorms, could cost you as much as living in a luxury apartment. That's way out of line with the rise in general cost of living, and I'm not convinced that the quality of the education is all that much better. What I did back then, I sure couldn't do today. So—What the hell happened!?? Don Firth |
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27 Jun 12 - 07:05 PM (#3368862) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: Don Firth By the way, Sawzaw, when I attended the U. of Washington, I knew a fair number of foreign exchange students: English, French, German, Swedish, lots of Indians, a couple of Egyptians, one from Kenya, another from Estonia. They came to "this conservative shithole" because their home countries subsidized their education abroad. Cultural exchange sort of thing. Their tuition and living expenses were paid for them, just as they would have been had they studied in their home countries. Don Firth |
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27 Jun 12 - 07:27 PM (#3368867) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: Bobert It's not our universities that are in all that much trouble... It's our country... B~ |
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27 Jun 12 - 08:32 PM (#3368884) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: kendall The love of money is the root of all evil. |
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27 Jun 12 - 08:35 PM (#3368885) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: Bobert Wish I had some to love... Oh well??? B;~( |
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27 Jun 12 - 09:27 PM (#3368900) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: Jack the Sailor Find me some money to love. |
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27 Jun 12 - 10:28 PM (#3368907) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: GUEST,marks(on the road) Why can't our institutes of higher learning just reduce tuition charges? I understand many of them are sitting on hugh endowments which presumably could be used to defay students bills. |
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27 Jun 12 - 10:35 PM (#3368910) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: Sawzaw "because their home countries subsidized their education abroad" Why would they want to spend more money to send them to a conservative shithole? |
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27 Jun 12 - 10:40 PM (#3368913) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: Jack the Sailor "a conservative shithole" Your words Mr. Patriot man. Your words. |
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27 Jun 12 - 11:48 PM (#3368940) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: Sawzaw I didn't hear an answer. |
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28 Jun 12 - 12:11 AM (#3368943) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: Deckman KENDALL is quite correct. bob(deckman)nelson |
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28 Jun 12 - 12:18 AM (#3368944) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: Neil D Keep relying so heavily on the straw man argument and we'll have to start calling you Strawzaw. |
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28 Jun 12 - 12:32 AM (#3368947) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: Big Al Whittle 'Like I have said, the revolution is on... ' Don't reckon your sides chances much Bob. Your lot have got hunting rifles, the right wing nutters have got Uzi's. |
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28 Jun 12 - 12:54 AM (#3368948) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: Don Firth You missed the key words, Sawzaw. "Cultural exchange." Also, some Amercan universities offer emphasis on some subjects that foreign students want. In the same manner, some universities in England or Germany or France offer courses that American universities don't. The student I met from Kenya, for example, was interested in entering something equivalent to a diplomatic corps and Nairobi schools would not offer him the courses—or the experiences—that he needed. In order to avoid conflict with "the conservative shithole," Kenya wanted some of their students to learn about it up close. And they were willing to pay for it. Same with some of the students from India. Also, in addition to their own fields of study, some of these exchange sturdents were observing American society. Not as spies, but in the same way an American student can learn about French society and customs by going to the Sorbonne (which, to the student, is free, by the way) and mingling with the French people. Case closed. Elementary, my dear Sawzaw. Think, man. Think. Don Firth |
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28 Jun 12 - 01:53 AM (#3368953) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Here, take a look...judge for yourselves..some good, some not. The BIGGEST reason that school costs are so high here, is all the 'amenities' that cost phenomenal amounts, from government contracts to lobbying 'special interests' contractors, tied in with the financial sector....and who gives the loan?...and who's taxes have to pay back the loan?. The whole fiasco, incorporates the cost of paying the corrupt people, all the way down the line. now this is a FACT...you all can argue about some 'lofty' notion about it one way or another..but if education is what you're after, and not some political bad breath, then costs could very easily be brought under control, IF THEY WANTED TO....and that includes weeding out overpaid teachers, whose performances are not up to par...but because a 'special interest' union lobby, those costs will remain higher than the efficiency paid for. No matter how you slice it, it is across the board!...Why not demand an end to the corruption?.....(You know why?).....Some of the ill gotten gain money, is paying politicians and activists, to say the things you are saying..and maybe even believing...and that's why the costs are high, and NOTHING is being done...except ask for more!! Now that wasn't too hard to understand...and, it's all true! 'In a Santa Claus world, The decorations appear, For Christmas in April, The Savior is here, With mass produced Love, And Peace everywhere... Ten dollars a pair. It's the spirit of selling and buying, It's the spirit of dying.. Oh, we all love to sing our American waltz, It's our dream come false... but we love it that way, everyday, And hope that the bad times are here to stay.... Fa la la la la..la la la la la-a-a" -PBR That's all, folks! GfS |
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28 Jun 12 - 01:57 AM (#3368955) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Delete the other one...I left out a line. Thank you! Here, take a look...judge for yourselves..some good, some not. The BIGGEST reason that school costs are so high here, is all the 'amenities' that cost phenomenal amounts, from government contracts to lobbying 'special interests' contractors, tied in with the financial sector....and who gives the loan?...and who's taxes have to pay back the loan?. The whole fiasco, incorporates the cost of paying the corrupt people, all the way down the line. now this is a FACT...you all can argue about some 'lofty' notion about it one way or another..but if education is what you're after, and not some political bad breath, then costs could very easily be brought under control, IF THEY WANTED TO....and that includes weeding out overpaid teachers, whose performances are not up to par...but because a 'special interest' union lobby, those costs will remain higher than the efficiency paid for. No matter how you slice it, it is across the board!...Why not demand an end to the corruption?.....(You know why?).....Some of the ill gotten gain money, is paying politicians and activists, to say the things you are saying..and maybe even believing...and that's why the costs are high, and NOTHING is being done...except ask for more!! Now that wasn't too hard to understand...and, it's all true! "In a Santa Claus world, The decorations appear, For Christmas in April, The Savior is here, With mass produced Love, And Peace everywhere... Ten dollars a pair. It's the spirit of giving Through selling and buying, It's the spirit of dying.. Oh, we all love to sing our American waltz, It's our dream come false... but we love it that way, everyday, And hope that the bad times are here to stay.... Fa la la la la..la la la la la-a-a" -PBR That's all, folks! GfS |
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28 Jun 12 - 03:20 AM (#3368962) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: theleveller A similar situation applies in the UK. My son is just about to finish his 3-year degree course. He will have a student debt of over £20,000. In addition, it has cost us and his grandmother around £8000 a year. And that's before the rise in tuition fees which have now, at most unis, trebled to £9000 a year. It's the wealthy Conservatives' way of guaranteeing their elitism continues. Bastards! |
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28 Jun 12 - 07:30 AM (#3369014) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: Sawzaw In jacks attack on conservative, there was no mention of cultural exchange. Only the horror of college costs. People from other countries are not horrified because they come here anyway. I don't mind living in a conservative shithole a bit, hard dirt, weeds in my pond, high college tuition, no problem. I can be sucessfull here. Foreigners can see that and they swim through shark infested waters to live in this conservative shithole. How many of them swim back when they discover the truth? The hate America, America is no better than Somalia, whiners don't know it but they are the 1% of the world. But they are so greedy want more. |
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28 Jun 12 - 09:00 AM (#3369045) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: Sawzaw Don: Have you thought about why foreign students would want to come here to mingle in such a horrible place? Why spend more to come here when it is so much better in Finland, Sweden or Norway where it is free? Maybe they believe they can come here and end up as one of those hated rich people. |
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28 Jun 12 - 09:21 AM (#3369054) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: Big Al Whittle 'Why spend more to come here when it is so much better in Finland, Sweden or Norway where it is free?' You obviously haven't heard - the USA is the new world. A home of the brave and land of the free. A land of golden opportunity. |
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28 Jun 12 - 02:19 PM (#3369166) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: Q (Frank Staplin) Some fiscal facts for University Washington: 2010 revenues $4 billion Total operating revenues- $3.124 billion Total operating expenses- $3.493 billion Net assets beginning of year $4.763 billion, end of year $5.194 billion. Net income- $431 million (Net loss in 2009- $374 million) (increase in profits from investments, $70 million increase in tuitions, a decline in operating expenses, and better performance by the Medical Center. The University as a whole generally operates at a loss, which is made up from state support, investment income and gifts. Endowment funds are usually specified as to use, and cannot be used outside those specifications, thus are not available to the University general funds. Teaching costs are $900 million of the $3.493 operating expenses. Research takes $700 million, Medical-related $777 million. Operation, maintenance and institutional support plus depreciation takes most of the rest. Like most universities, Washington is not a money maker. If it was s stock-issuimg company, investment houses would rate it a "no-buy." |
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28 Jun 12 - 02:46 PM (#3369173) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: GUEST,999 Attributed to Derek Bok (Harvard): If you think education is expensive, try ignorance. |
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28 Jun 12 - 03:05 PM (#3369178) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: Don Firth You're not getting it, Sawzaw. The exchange students are not paying for it, their GOVERNMENTS are. And the idea is cultural exchange. And not ALL of America is a "conservative shithole." Some Americans are fairly nice folks. Among other things, I learned a helluva lot about the Israel-Palestine conflict from one of the Egyptian students, who explained quite clearly what the viewpoint of the Palestinians is. Something most Americans are not going to hear. And I had long chats with a couple of Indian students, one of whom showed me his sitar and explained a lot about ragas and Hindustani music in general. And I've had Turkish coffee, brewed in the traditional way by a real Turk. And I sat there in the Pizza Haven with Legson Kyara from Kenya when he had his first pizza. Cultural exchange, Sawzaw. You're apparently much too wrapped up in squinting through the narrow knot-hole of politics. Don Firth |
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28 Jun 12 - 03:06 PM (#3369179) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: Jack the Sailor Jee Whiz Sawzaw, I never said US universities weren't good. The cartoon doesn't say that. It is saying that they are too expensive and the funding priorities are wrong. And STOP CALLING THE USA a "shithole" you unpatriotic jerk!!! |
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28 Jun 12 - 04:05 PM (#3369201) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: Little Hawk Too funny! He obviously doesn't think the USA is a shithole. He was being extremely sarcastic and implying that his opponents IN this argument see the USA as "a conservative shithole". He's suggesting that you're all unpatriotic compared to him. You're suggesting that he's unpatriotic. So who gets to enjoy the biggest sense of moral outrage here? You or him? Who gets to pound his chest loudest and say, "I'M the REAL AMERICAN patriot here?" You or him? Certainly not me. I was born in Canada, so I don't have to prove my American patriotism to anyone. Weren't you born in Canada too, Jack? |
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28 Jun 12 - 04:11 PM (#3369204) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: Little Hawk By the way, I agree 100% with the cartoon you posted that started off this thread. |
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28 Jun 12 - 04:32 PM (#3369212) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: Jack the Sailor I never said it was shithole. Only he has said it is a shithole. I object strenuously to calling this country a shithole. Since he and only he has called it a shithole it is not patriotic for him to continue calling it a shithole. Are there only two choices? Agreeing with ultraconservative nonsense or calling the country a shithole? If that were true it would be a shithole but THIS COUNTRY IS A FINE PLACE. ONE OF THE BEST...so far. But thanks to uninformed voters like Sawzaw, the government is making unwise and unpatriotic choices. |
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28 Jun 12 - 05:52 PM (#3369245) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: Q (Frank Staplin) Comparisons are often stretched beyond limits in cartoons such as the one posted at the beginning. Taxes are much higher in Sweden. 22% of Swedes progress beyond secondary education. 30% of U.S. students progress beyond secondary education. Figures easily available through google. It is true that U.S. military adventures waste a large part of American taxes; not only education but all aspects of American life, esp. infrastructure, would benefit from a military based on defense rather than reforming the world. |
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28 Jun 12 - 06:11 PM (#3369253) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: Don Firth Re: From: Little Hawk - PM Date: 28 Jun 12 - 04:05 PM Do bloody tell, Little Hawk! I don't think most people here are so stupid that they need a tour guide to explain Sawzaw's sarcasm. And I'm sure that Jack knows full well what Sawzaw is up to and is giving him a dose of his own medicine. Don Firth |
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28 Jun 12 - 06:27 PM (#3369259) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: Jack the Sailor Sarcasm? Sarcasm!!!?? I'm sorry I was too full of righteous American indignation to even think about sarcasm. Calling the country I love a "shithole" and this close to the Fourth of July. The nerve!! The very nerve!! Seriously. Don was right. But I was also fed up with him calling this country a shithole. So some part of me does mean every word. A lot of sarcasm is like that. I think Sawzaw's may be like that too. The people and institutions he criticizes are apart of this country. So deep down, especially when he pisses and moans about the sitting government, he is probably saying that he thinks that America is a shithole. Some things should not even be said in jest especially by self-described patriots. |
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28 Jun 12 - 06:33 PM (#3369265) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: Big Al Whittle Most countries have their shithole aspects....I suspect. never been to the USA. |
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28 Jun 12 - 06:37 PM (#3369268) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: Jack the Sailor Come on 'conservatives' be like this guy. |
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28 Jun 12 - 06:40 PM (#3369270) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: Jack the Sailor Somalia, maybe is a shithole, Haiti? Not here. No way. It is not funny. it is not a joke. It is not perfect for me but I have it really good and I am very grateful. |
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28 Jun 12 - 06:46 PM (#3369277) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: Jack the Sailor I want to play poker with the one on the right!! |
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28 Jun 12 - 06:58 PM (#3369282) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: Jack the Sailor So true... so true.... |
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28 Jun 12 - 07:05 PM (#3369286) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: Jack the Sailor NewsCorp owner. |
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28 Jun 12 - 07:12 PM (#3369289) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: Jack the Sailor Romney wants to increase the military. |
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28 Jun 12 - 07:14 PM (#3369290) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: Jack the Sailor 9/11 responders! |
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28 Jun 12 - 08:18 PM (#3369316) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: Amos We have taken in a foreign student who is attending the UCSD Extension for improving his somewhat limited English, but who will learn fast, as he is quite bright and willing, and who will go on to study political science. He;s from Riyadhi, and we are having a fine time learning about life in Saudi Arabia, in a general sort of way. Why would someone go to UCSD to study political science? Probably because it has one of the more sophisticated programs in the country. Same reason they'd go there to study oceanography at the Scripps Institution. The fact is that many of our educational centers rank among the world's best as far as substantive quality is concerned, just as some of our most advanced medical resources rank among the world's best. That doesn't mean, though, that the system that manages them is viable--that's a different issue (a whole set of different issues). As Bobert said, the critical problem is the vision at the national level. Trickle down economics doesn't work for shit, but trickle-down idealism certainly can. A |
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28 Jun 12 - 08:31 PM (#3369324) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: Jack the Sailor Amos, I'll bet that your foreign student can afford the tuition. Which in a way, is part of the point of the cartoon. |
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28 Jun 12 - 11:13 PM (#3369379) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: Sawzaw "You're not getting it, Sawzaw. The exchange students are not paying for it, their GOVERNMENTS are. And the idea is cultural exchange." I asked why their government would want to pay more to send someone to a conservative shithole when they could send them elsewhere where conservatives haven't fucked things up. |
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28 Jun 12 - 11:55 PM (#3369388) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: Jack the Sailor Please stop calling this country a Shithole. |
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29 Jun 12 - 12:18 AM (#3369392) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: Don Firth Because not all Americans are conservative shit heads, Sawzaw. There ARE things to be learned here. And conservative shit heads like you could learn a great deal by traveling to other countries and meeting the people there. You might even take a look at their political systems to see why they seem to be able to do a lot of things better than we're doing. You know, maybe foreign countries send people here to get a good look at how NOT to do things. Don Firth |
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29 Jun 12 - 01:45 AM (#3369408) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: Jack the Sailor Don, I think there is a lot to learn from the "liberal elites" at our universities. Did you see "Good Will Hunting?" They have people smarter than Sawzaw sweeping the floors. |
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29 Jun 12 - 04:41 AM (#3369455) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: theleveller Talking of liberal elites, Tzvetan Todorov's book, Imperfect Garden, has been published in English for the first time. I'm a big fan of Todorov so I'll be investing in a copy of thi. I'm especially interested in what he has to say regarding existential individualism which I've been attracted to for some time but which he dismisses in favour of liberal humanism. http://press.princeton.edu/titles/7253.html |
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30 Jun 12 - 02:52 AM (#3369932) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Let's suppose you have a limited budget for education, do you spend the money on facilitating the students??...or making sure mediocre teachers, with tenure get their generous pensions, and benefits?? just a question.... GfS |
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30 Jun 12 - 02:10 PM (#3369968) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: Don Firth False dichotomy. It's not a matter of "either / or." And you are automatically assuming that unionized teachers are incompetent. Again, a highly questionable assumption. Don Firth |
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30 Jun 12 - 02:53 PM (#3369989) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: Bobert I'll just go on record of saying that I think Sawz is smart enough to sweep floors... B;~) |
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30 Jun 12 - 03:01 PM (#3369994) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: Jack the Sailor Yes he is a triumph of the educational system! :-) |
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30 Jun 12 - 03:26 PM (#3370012) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Don Firth: "And you are automatically assuming that unionized teachers are incompetent...... " Don, you are the one with, "Again, a highly questionable assumption." I said nothing of the sort!..and only asked a question. let's keep it straight..THIS TIME! Whether they are union or not, mediocrity and tenure often go together...that should be changed...don't you think? GfS |
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30 Jun 12 - 04:10 PM (#3370026) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: Jack the Sailor GfS, Since you don't know what Loaded questions are how do you keep asking them? |
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30 Jun 12 - 04:19 PM (#3370029) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Wrong!....it was a choice between two things, finances going to actually educating the students, or finances going to teachers who don't get good results, but are retained, due to tenure and paid benefits. Simple as that....Don's assumptive remark was to avoid answering the question...he didn't even have to respond...and really hasn't yet answered ANYTHING....pretty hot stuff, for a know-it-all!...with NO ANSWERS! GfS |
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30 Jun 12 - 04:39 PM (#3370039) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: Jack the Sailor You need to calm down and post what comes out of your brain rather than your bladder. |
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30 Jun 12 - 04:43 PM (#3370043) Subject: RE: BS: Take this 'Conservatives!' From: Don Firth GoofuS, it is YOU who are doing the assuming. You IMPLIED that unionized teachers are--ipso facto--incompetent. That does a fair job of displaying your prejudice against unions. You are echoing the arguments of Wisconsin's Right Wing Governor, Scott Walker, who is a darling of the Tea Party. And how, pray tell, are you going to educate people without teachers? #### I am really in awe of the way GoofuS can keep sticking his foot in his mouth when he already has his head up his ass. I don't think even Houdini could manage that! Don Firth |