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04 Jul 12 - 03:27 PM (#3372006) Subject: BS: ACA Mandate Not a tax From: Jack the Sailor This guy makes a good argument that it isn't. He is saying that Roberts said it is a penalty imposed under the laws that give Congress the right to Tax. He points out that the law is far from safe unless the Dems retain the Senate or regain the House. |
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04 Jul 12 - 03:30 PM (#3372009) Subject: RE: BS: ACA Mandate Not a tax From: Jack the Sailor This is intended to be a new starting point for conversation. It is not intended to argue with or add to any other thread. |
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04 Jul 12 - 04:36 PM (#3372040) Subject: RE: BS: ACA Mandate Not a tax From: Jack the Sailor Think you know ACA? Take the quiz. |
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04 Jul 12 - 04:57 PM (#3372046) Subject: RE: BS: ACA Mandate Not a tax From: JohnInKansas Just as one pays a penalty if payment of income taxes is "late," the health insurance mandate imposes a penalty for not purchasing insurance. The penalties in both cases are fairly modest, relative to the amounts on which they're based. In the case of the income tax penalties, they amount to an "agreed upon rate of interest on an amount owed," and are sufficiently reasonable that even a poor pauper like myself may occasionally find it "convenient" to withhold the tax, or part of it, pending a thorough review of the return to be filed, when there's a question as to the amount of tax owed. If you file for a delay in filing a return, and don't pay the tax, or don't pay all that is eventually due, you pay interest for the time by which the payment is delayed. There may also be a "penalty" fee, in addition to the interest, but the penalties - in the absence of proven criminal intent - are reasonable enough for the decisions to be made according to ordinary "business rationale." And the interest rate is generally less than if you borrowed from the bank (or a credit card) in order to pay "on time." The penalties applied to the uninsured under the health insurance act are generally substantially less than most people would pay to purchase insurance at prevailing rates, making it an OPTION for those who have difficulty with buying an insurance policy to bear the risk of an uninsured illness, and pay a lesser amount. They then are liable for any uninsured medical expense, but pay a lesser fee in lieu of insurance by assuming that risk. In both cases, it seems like as fair a system as any bunch of politicians is likely to be able to come up with. The penalties (and possible interest) are obviously NOT A TAX according to the conventions applied to any number of other "taxes," for the fees and penalties applied to settlements of them when the person responsible elects to deviate from the schedule. The two cases here are just the most convenient examples - for now. There are many other similar precedents. John |
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04 Jul 12 - 05:14 PM (#3372050) Subject: RE: BS: ACA Mandate Not a tax From: Ebbie Thanks for the quiz,JtS. I found that I knew them all except for the last one- I wasn't sure what the law planned for undocumented residents. I'm glad for the information. |
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04 Jul 12 - 05:41 PM (#3372062) Subject: RE: BS: ACA Mandate Not a tax From: dick greenhaus Don't try to confuse us with facts; it's still Obamacare, dammit! |
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05 Jul 12 - 12:13 AM (#3372162) Subject: RE: BS: ACA Mandate Not a tax From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity It's also coercion.... Which legally voids a contract!..Look it up! GfS |
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05 Jul 12 - 01:27 AM (#3372180) Subject: RE: BS: ACA Mandate Not a tax From: Jack the Sailor Legal coercion does not void a contract. Basically you can't do anything illegal to get a contract and you cannot have a contract that requires the other party to commit and illegal act. But there is all kinds of coercion going on in the negotiation and enforcement of contracts, strikes, lockouts, penalty clauses, etc etc. But why am I telling you this? You know everything? |
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05 Jul 12 - 02:54 AM (#3372189) Subject: RE: BS: ACA Mandate Not a tax From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Jack, Coercion to sign a contract is indeed illegal, and makes it non-binding. GfS |
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05 Jul 12 - 08:38 AM (#3372293) Subject: RE: BS: ACA Mandate Not a tax From: GUEST,Lighter It's kinda like a tax and it's kinda like a penalty. The Supreme Court thinks it's more like a tax and is Constitutional under the taxing power of Congress. But it isn't precisely a tax like other taxes. Labeling it as simply one or the other just confuses the issue. And who on earth would want to do that? |
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05 Jul 12 - 08:49 AM (#3372297) Subject: RE: BS: ACA Mandate Not a tax From: Bobert In a way it is "coercion"... All fees & taxes are and guess what??? If you listed them all that can be found in America its tens of thousands... Big deal... I mean, look at your phone bill or your electric bill, for instance... See those little fees??? If you don't pay them then yer phone goes dead or your lights go out... Hey, so you want to go over that toll bridge but don't want to pay the $1 to do so then strap a bunch on inner tubes on the Escort and paddle it across the river... I mean, lets get real... Be it the government or private companies... They both need $$$ to offer services... Anyone who thinks it would be better to turn everything over to for-profit corporations as GfinS, Ayn Rand and Tea-drinkers believe ain't lookin' at the "for-profit" part in "for profit" corporations... They'd fleece us in a New York minute and create a "Little Somalia" reality for the bottom 90% of our population... Square business... B~ |
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05 Jul 12 - 12:04 PM (#3372393) Subject: RE: BS: ACA Mandate Not a tax From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Did Ayn Rand drink tea? ..I don't waste my time reading her shit, ..and I prefer coffee! GfS |
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05 Jul 12 - 12:16 PM (#3372407) Subject: RE: BS: ACA Mandate Not a tax From: Jack the Sailor Tea dumpers. Lets say you want to build a toll bridge. Someone owns the land you want to use. It is perfectly legal and enforceable to threaten legal action, such as taking the owner to court or seizure by eminent domain. How can you in all conscience constantly criticize others and call them uninformed if you do not know, and are apparently unwilling to learn these very simple things. Contract law is not nearly as complicated as campaign finance law or the ACA. |
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05 Jul 12 - 12:39 PM (#3372421) Subject: RE: BS: ACA Mandate Not a tax From: Bobert Any Rand was the original Tea Partier... She hated the government and envisioned a world not all that different than the one depicted in "Mad Max After the Thunder Dome"... A post-modern society scrambling and fighting over crumbs... B~ |
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05 Jul 12 - 01:01 PM (#3372429) Subject: RE: BS: ACA Mandate Not a tax From: Jack the Sailor She was from communist Russia and was decrying the system there. I guess she was warning that it might spread over here. She also taught selfishness as if it were a religion. Basically she said to the individual that their personal greed is good for society. A lot of people want to be greedy without feeling guilty. They buy into that crap. Some evangelize it. It think there is a real possibility that she was a communist mole trying to destroy our system from within. To bad for the communists that the Soviet Union won't be around to pick up the pieces after the Tea Party destroys our economic base. :-p |
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05 Jul 12 - 02:19 PM (#3372454) Subject: RE: BS: ACA Mandate Not a tax From: Jack the Sailor Returning to the topic of the thread. NPR points out differences and similarities of ACA and Romney Care. |
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05 Jul 12 - 02:20 PM (#3372455) Subject: RE: BS: ACA Mandate Not a tax From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity What pieces??.. The Multinational Corporations will probably recycle them! ...as for the rest, you guys spin so hard, that you should consider getting a job as human drills..maybe even drilling all the way to China!!! GfS |
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05 Jul 12 - 04:45 PM (#3372530) Subject: RE: BS: ACA Mandate Not a tax From: Jack the Sailor States will now be able to all but opt out of Medicaid. ~Bobert Good news Bob! Not according to the information I posted on this thread in the "Returning to the Topic" link. The federal plan would expand Medicaid to cover poor, able-bodied adults who are not parents in addition to poor children, elderly, pregnant women and those with disabilities. [The recent Supreme Court decision gives states the option to opt out of the Medicaid expansion without penalty.] The Massachusetts plan expands Medicaid coverage to more children. |
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05 Jul 12 - 04:57 PM (#3372541) Subject: RE: BS: ACA Mandate Not a tax From: Bobert Yes, JtS... Medicaid is expanded but Medicaid is administered by the states, not the federal government... Here in. lies the problem... The states will now have greater control of eligibility requirements... Yes, the federal $$$ will be there but like what happened with the stimulus $$$ some states, as a means of politics, will elect not to play or play at very low levels... I know it's dumb... Just like the train hatin' Republican governors who turned down federal $$$ for high speed rail service... Who lost??? Those states with the dumb governors, that's who... B~ |
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05 Jul 12 - 06:01 PM (#3372565) Subject: RE: BS: ACA Mandate Not a tax From: Jack the Sailor Roberts blow back bad for right? |
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05 Jul 12 - 07:03 PM (#3372592) Subject: RE: BS: ACA Mandate Not a tax From: Bobert Yup... The current GOP is down to wackos and the very wealthy who lead them around... Moderates need not apply... B~ |
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05 Jul 12 - 10:23 PM (#3372660) Subject: RE: BS: ACA Mandate Not a tax From: Songwronger And a boot to the side of the head is not a kick. |