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31 Jul 12 - 03:41 PM (#3384212) Subject: Folklore: What does 'lying next to the wall' mean? From: GUEST,Maeve I'm completely new to this site but it was suggested to me that you all might have the answer. (I couldn't find any info by searching for "next to the wall") I've noticed a few folk songs with lying next to the wall as a bit of a theme. Captain Wedderburn's Courtship and Kittie Lie Over are the two that come to mind at the moment but I'm sure I've come across others. What does this mean? What does it suggest? I'd love to know if anyone knows what this used to mean! |
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31 Jul 12 - 03:46 PM (#3384215) Subject: RE: Folklore: What does 'lying next to the wall' mean? From: Anne Neilson I've always assumed that it meant being in the position from which there was no possibility of escape, and so the girl would lose her maidenhead as an inevitability. |
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31 Jul 12 - 03:59 PM (#3384223) Subject: RE: Folklore: What does 'lying next to the wall' mean? From: GUEST,Peter I had assumed a reference to a box or closet bed which was reasonably common in some parts of the country. |
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31 Jul 12 - 04:05 PM (#3384227) Subject: RE: Folklore: What does 'lying next to the wall' mean? From: Anne Neilson I'd thought of it as a small room where the bed was pushed against the wall, so there could be no 'exit' other than climbing over the other occupant! |
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31 Jul 12 - 04:06 PM (#3384228) Subject: RE: Folklore: What does 'lying next to the wall' mean? From: GUEST,999 You And I In The One Bed Lie Credits: Traditional Appears On: Cathie Ryan Language: English Lyrics: A nobleman's fair daughter was walking down yon lane When up comes Captain Dixon, the keeper of the game Says he unto his serving man, "If it was not for the law I'd have that maid within my bed and she'd lie next to the wall" "Go away, young man," says she, "And do not me perplex Before I lie one night with you, you'll answer questions six Six questions you will answer, and I will make them all Before you and I in the one bed lie and I lie next to the wall What is rounder than a ring? What's higher than a tree? What is worse than womankind? What's deeper than the sea? What tree blooms first? What bird sings best? From where do dew drops fall? Then it's you and I in the one bed lie and I lie next to the wall" "A globe is rounder than a ring, sky higher than a tree A girl is worse than womankind, hell deeper than the sea The yew blooms first, the thrush sings best, from heaven the dew drops fall So it's you and I in the one bed lie and you lie next to the wall" "You must get for me some winter fruit that in December grew Find for me a mantle, a weft it never went through A sparrow's horn, a priest unshorn, a bird without a gaul Then it's you and I in the one bed lie and I lie next to the wall" "My father has some winter fruit that in December grew My mother wears a mantle, a weft it never went through A sparrow's horn's not hard to find, there's one in every claw Melchizedek is a priest unshorn," and he rolled her to the wall from http://www.celticlyricscorner.net/ryan/you.htm |
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31 Jul 12 - 04:07 PM (#3384229) Subject: RE: Folklore: What does 'lying next to the wall' mean? From: GUEST,Blandiver Indeed. A bed next to the wall; someone's got to lie on the wall side. Maidenhead? Sounds a bit rum... Brian O'Linn & his wife & wife's mother All lay down in the one bed together; the sheets they were torn & the blankets were thin - I'll lie next the wall says Brian O'Linn |
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31 Jul 12 - 04:07 PM (#3384230) Subject: RE: Folklore: What does 'lying next to the wall' mean? From: Don Firth The woman "lying next to the wall" is very significant. If they are married, the man lies next to the wall so the woman can get up and take care of the babies, fix breakfast, etc., leaving her hard-working husband (?) to get his much needed rest. If they are NOT married, she lies next to the wall so that, if necessary, he can leap up, grab his sword, and fend of her outraged father, brother(s), or for that matter, her husband, should they break in on the couple with mayhem in mind. Usually in these songs, the man is not suggesting marriage. Or so it was explained some years ago by Prof. David C. Fowler in a class I took at the U. of Washington on "The English and Scottish Popular Ballad." Don Firth |
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31 Jul 12 - 04:40 PM (#3384248) Subject: RE: Folklore: What does 'lying next to the wall' mean? From: Fergie It is my understanding that in the context of traditional songs; to "lie next or close to the well" is a euphemism for sexual intercourse. Fergus |
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31 Jul 12 - 04:56 PM (#3384255) Subject: RE: Folklore: What does 'lying next to the wall' mean? From: Don Firth Well, that is as I described above. When the young man specifies that the young woman "lie next to the wall," he is indicating that he wants to have sex with her, but he is not suggesting marriage. Don Firth |
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31 Jul 12 - 05:25 PM (#3384270) Subject: RE: Folklore: What does 'lying next to the wall' mean? From: Little Robyn Have you ever tried sharing a single bed and being squashed into the wall? The alternative is being on the outside and pushed onto the floor. Robyn |
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31 Jul 12 - 05:38 PM (#3384273) Subject: RE: Folklore: What does 'lying next to the wall' mean? From: Q (Frank Staplin) I thought the song Captain Wedderburn's Courtship. Child 46, (DT, Jean Redpath version) expressed the meaning clearly. Last verse: Oh little did that lady think that morning when she raise That this was for tae be the last o' a' her maiden days, But noo there's nae within the realm tae be found a blither twa For noo she's Mistress Wedderburn and she lies at the wa'. (She is now the Captain's lady; she is in the protected position near the wall. The version in Contemplator ends, And now they lie in one bed, And she lies next the wall. Joe Heaney explains: In the olden times, the men was so fond of the women, that they put them lying next to the wall out of danger. Now, I don't know did they put them lying next to the wall so they couldn't run away, or because they wanted to protect them. Have it your way! But, they tell me it's to protect them they did it. Some people still do it ! www.joeheaney.org/default.asp?contentID=741 Heaney's version, these verses explain it: ............. 'For my breakfast you must get for me a cherry without a stone; A chicken when it's in the egg surely has no bone; The dove is a gentle bird, it flies without a gall; So you and I on the one bed lie, but you'll lie next the wall.' ............ 'Ah, go your way, young man,' she said and do not me perplex. Before you and I on the one bed lie, you must answer me questions six, Six questions you must answer me, and I'll set forth them all; Then you and I on the one bed lie, and I'll lie next the wall. ................ This couple they were married, as you may plainly see: They live happily together, and children they have three. She set forth the questions; he answered one and all. He rolled her in his arms, while she lay next the wall. |
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31 Jul 12 - 05:59 PM (#3384288) Subject: RE: Folklore: What does 'lying next to the wall' mean? From: Phil Cooper I had also heard what Don has posted. Our ancestors didn't really want to have sex did they? :) |
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31 Jul 12 - 07:22 PM (#3384320) Subject: RE: Folklore: What does 'lying next to the wall' mean? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T The song for the married man lying next the wall, whose wife is very fat. "I'll Never Get Over You!" I'll get me coat............... Don T. |
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31 Jul 12 - 07:48 PM (#3384331) Subject: RE: Folklore: What does 'lying next to the wall' mean? From: kendall In a prison it has a different meaning |
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31 Jul 12 - 07:55 PM (#3384338) Subject: RE: Folklore: What does 'lying next to the wall' mean? From: Nancy King Phil -- how do you suppose they got to be ancestors? |
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31 Jul 12 - 08:32 PM (#3384358) Subject: RE: Folklore: What does 'lying next to the wall' mean? From: Q (Frank Staplin) And then there was bundling- |
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01 Aug 12 - 05:51 AM (#3384505) Subject: RE: Folklore: What does 'lying next to the wall' mean? From: Gutcher In the song "Noo Haud Yer Tongue Dear Maggie" the last line of the 3rd verse is:--"Tae tak me in his strong airms and lay me neist the waa". The young wife, in this case being married to an old man, is in need of some action from a young man. Bundling gets a mention in various songs including "The Braes O Kirkmahoe". The practice appears to have died out about the middle of the 18th.C. in S.W. Scotland. V.7. "Tae bundle there wi Annie it was my sole intent but o that loosum kimmer man she wad provoke a saint". |
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01 Aug 12 - 06:35 AM (#3384511) Subject: RE: Folklore: What does 'lying next to the wall' mean? From: GUEST,Blandiver I think meaning here is a bit severe, but there are certain euphemistic overtones, even in the Brian O'Linn verse I quoted above (as sung by Seamus Ennis). Is our eternally optimistic hero suggesting his willingness to take a passive role in a Ménage à Trois with his wife and mother-in-law? Could be, but euphemism always implies a level of double entendre, which means it has to work both ways, and that some things are ultimately, best left unsaid. In this sense (say) The Seeds of Love is either a load of blatent knob gags & sexual innuendo worthy of Roy Chubby Brown, or obscure verses about flowers, though no doubt the Folklorists amongst us could tell us exactly what it all means by way of exacting symbolism, thus making even the ghost of John England blush - let alone Cecil Sharp, who probably did think it was all about flowers. If only life (and language) were so simple! |
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01 Aug 12 - 06:59 AM (#3384519) Subject: RE: Folklore: What does 'lying next to the wall' mean? From: maeve Welcome to Mudcat, Other Maeve. Maeve in Maine |
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01 Aug 12 - 01:40 PM (#3384700) Subject: RE: Folklore: What does 'lying next to the wall' mean? From: YorkshireYankee Then there's the last two verses of King Henry: When the night was gone and the day was come And the sun shone through the hall The fairest lady that e'er was seen Lay between him and the wall I've met with many a gentle knight That gave gave me such a fill But never before with a courteous knight That gave me all my will Considering that this "fair lady" was originally a terrifying witch who forced Henry to give her food (his horse), more food (his hounds), drink (his dead horse's blood), a bed, and "all her will", it's extremely interesting (at least, I think it is) that it was her against the wall rather than Henry... |
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24 Apr 17 - 09:21 PM (#3852262) Subject: RE: Folklore: What does 'lying next to the wall' mean? From: GUEST,Elfie I think what Don Firth said makes sense. Here is a copy/paste of what he said: The woman "lying next to the wall" is very significant. If they are married, the man lies next to the wall so the woman can get up and take care of the babies, fix breakfast, etc., leaving her hard-working husband (?) to get his much needed rest. If they are NOT married, she lies next to the wall so that, if necessary, he can leap up, grab his sword, and fend of her outraged father, brother(s), or for that matter, her husband, should they break in on the couple with mayhem in mind. Usually in these songs, the man is not suggesting marriage. Or so it was explained some years ago by Prof. David C. Fowler in a class I took at the U. of Washington on "The English and Scottish Popular Ballad." Don Firth |
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25 Apr 17 - 05:15 AM (#3852300) Subject: RE: Folklore: What does 'lying next to the wall' mean? From: GUEST,Gerry Does it bother anyone else that in the lyrics to You And I In The One Bed Lie, posted upthread, she says she's going to ask him six questions, but she actually asks seven? |
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25 Apr 17 - 06:26 AM (#3852309) Subject: RE: Folklore: What does 'lying next to the wall' mean? From: Rob Naylor Yes, it was one of the first things I noticed. That and the fact that he doesn't appear to have found her a "bird without a gaul" (gall?). |
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26 Apr 17 - 02:09 AM (#3852458) Subject: RE: Folklore: What does 'lying next to the wall' mean? From: Thompson I read in a behavioural study some time ago that men virtually always sleep on the side nearer to the door and women next to the wall - the authors suggested that it was an atavistic thing, the man being their for defence. |