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22 Oct 99 - 10:45 AM (#126761) Subject: Folk and Nationalism From: j0_77 Odd but true the notes E D C in equal measure start thousands of tunes. It does not take a genious to reckon there's many a tune made of bits taken from other tunes or in many a case a bit of one married to the image of some 'world' sound. Music knows no border. The claim made by some authors about the origin of folk lyric make me dizzy. Those influenced ought to reread the material with a more critical eye. I almost came to a sticky end with one moutain person who insisted 'Rosin the Bow' was a French song ie 'Rosin le Beau'. I was actualy talking about an Itinerant Fiddler who gained some fame in Victorian Britain singing the song 'Rosin The Bow' and who later became know as MR da dah Rosin the Bow. True I do live in Oklahoma USA, true I did write the lyric to a couple of songs here and there, but I must say I took some comfort in what I had already read or heard, including poetry, from every corner of the globe. If in times to come there were to be a dispute between two Nations as to who 'owned' those lyrics, then twould be a geat arguement for I am neither a native nor a true Brit, and having some ancient Gaulish genes, the French also could also enter the fray. Poetry and lyric make word art which enhances a language like Pushkin does Russian, but that motive has little to do with Nationalism. I find the whole thing rather ridiculus, especialy Child and Sharpe. I know I'll swiftly be slapped down here, but unburdened of that prejudice which long hinders good art I became liberated long long ago. The best folk songs are a product of coperative effort and many a fine reel was made in session, but not by a sole fiddler. In fact I'd say that what makes folk so widely loved is it's anonymity. Comments?
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22 Oct 99 - 11:22 AM (#126772) Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism From: Fortunato Do you know the Zen saying?: Do not mistake the finger pointing for the moon. Differentiation and derivation have their place, but the labeling of a thing is not the thing itself. All such labels are at best approximation and so convenient illusions. |
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22 Oct 99 - 11:29 AM (#126775) Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism From: Freddie Fox On the subject - did the folk song 'lili bulero' [may not be spelt like that!!] come from Mozart, or did Mozart nick the tune? And does anyone know the origin of the Londonderry Air? If Julian May [Saga of the Exiles - SciFi] is to be believed, is it extremely ancient and the origins obscure. Should be interested to know. |
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22 Oct 99 - 12:01 PM (#126791) Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird) jO_77, I'm not sure quite what your meaning is. Precisely what "whole thing" do you find ridiculous ? The concept of "national music" ? An idea which I accept: that there are, or can be, such things as "regional dialects" in music. An idea which I utterly REJECT is a concept which I detect in certain writers: a sort of super-copyright law, under which only the inhabitants of a certain region, or only people of certain bloodlines, are entitled to develop and perform certain melodies or genres of music. This notion is utterly repugnant to creative freedom. Is either of these what you were getting at ? T. |
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22 Oct 99 - 12:01 PM (#126792) Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism From: Aine Dear Freddie, We've had several threads on the Londonderry Air. Go to this link on Mudcat and browse the various threads: http://www.mudcat.org/quicksearch.cfm?who=LONDONDERRY+AIR - Aine |
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22 Oct 99 - 12:46 PM (#126807) Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism From: M. Ted (inactive) There is a thread still lingering here called "How can we make folk music more appealing?" but I don't know how to make those blue things yet-- Melodies are very contagious things--composers often take melodies that they hear in the streets and develop them into concert pieces of various sorts without compunction--They get picked up and moved around a lot amongst the "folk" as well, and many of them get altered slightly to accomodate a particular dance rhythm or lyric meter that may be popular in the adopting folk culture-- As to the ancientness of melodies, folk melodies tend to be old, but not nearly as old as people want them to be-- Musicologists can "date" melodies simply by looking at the musical devices that are used and comparing them to the time that those devices were used in composition-- Londonderry Air or what ever you like to call it is a fairly sophisticated melody and probably hasn't been around much more than a century or two--
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22 Oct 99 - 01:38 PM (#126830) Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism From: Áine Dear Freddie, Here's a good website for an explanation of the history of the Londonderry Air: http://www.standingstones.com/dannyboy.html |
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22 Oct 99 - 01:58 PM (#126846) Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism From: bseed(charleskratz) Hey, Fortunato--you're doing pretty well for being chained up and bricked into the niche in Montressor's catecomb for lo these hundreds of years. I guess having "A Song in Your Heart" really helps--or maybe it's that zen thing, huh? And Freddie, I think "Lili Bolero" was a song composed for the movie "Lili," with Leslie Caron in the title role--the composer may have lifted a melody from Mozart. And finally, jO, your mention of the E-D-C (III-II-I) opening for songs got me thinking of some of the tunes that start that way: "Red-Haired Boy ["Little Beggar Boy}," "Turkey in the Straw," "The Flowers of Edinburg," "The Maiden's Prayer," "The Big Rock Candy Mountain," and so on--that's a few minutes' play with the progression: I'll bet there are hundreds, thousands. --seed |
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22 Oct 99 - 06:59 PM (#126964) Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism From: McGrath of Harlow As I thought. I can do a blue clicky thing, but if I try to describe it, it just comes through as a blue clicky thing, not a description of how to do one. As I said, g to the thread on "Mudcat jargon and inside jokes", and somewhere in there Joe Offer gives you the goods. (Ask "Find" to find "Blue Clicky Thing" and after three or four stops you get there)
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22 Oct 99 - 07:52 PM (#126981) Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism From: Art Thieme De man piaba and de woman piab, And the con-fu-sion makes me brain go round... Yes, It's clear as mud--and it covers the ground!! Art |
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22 Oct 99 - 10:23 PM (#127023) Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism From: j0_77 TG I am not the only one. Yup T it is ridiculus! I'd rather not get into Ethics on this one. It is an expresion of frustration. Notice caller asks Max on Mudcat Radio for a "Local" tune and Max ain't got one? What now, there are no Localland resources on the world wide web! That is the whole point of Mudcat Radio. It is Global and the folk that it represents is Global, it's Folk. I am happy not to have been walloped. Thankyou. |
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22 Oct 99 - 10:36 PM (#127028) Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism From: -gargoyle Dear J0....this is one of the more brillant threads I have seen...truthfully because so much of what I say is "miss-interpreted" and I am a "sarky" this is brillant!!! |
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23 Oct 99 - 04:11 AM (#127111) Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism From: katlaughing From the contemplator website: Lilli Berlero According to legend this tune first appears in 1641 in Ulster. Richard Talbot (1630-1691), a Catholic and royalist, had been made Earl of Tyrconnel after the Restoration and King James II later appointed him Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (1686). He pursued strong pro-Catholic policies. Even after James was deposed in England Tyrconnel governed Ireland in James' name. Irish Catholic forces were eventually defeated by William. English and Irish Protestants took up the song as their melody during that time. According to one source the words "lillibulero" and "bullen al-a" were used as a rallying cry for the Irish to recognize one another in the uprising in 1641. Later (1687) Thomas, Lord Wharton (1640-1715), wrote a set of satirical verses titled Lillibolero regarding the Irish problems and set them to a melody arranged by Henry Purcell in 1678. Purcell's arrangement was based on an older tune under the name Quickstep which appeared in Robert Carr's Delightful Companion (1686). It became popular immediately. After the Stuarts were deposed Lord Wharton, a strong supporter of William III, boasted that he had "rhymed James out of three kingdoms" with his tune.* However, Irish writer Brendan Behan claimed the words of the chorus were a corruption of the Gaelic: "An lili ba leir e, ba linn an la" - roughly "The lily won the day for us."** A forum post at Digital Tradition reveals that according to Sources of Irish Traditional Music (1998) it translates as: Lilli/ bu le'ir o/, bu linn an la/ - Lilli will be manifest, the day will be ours. William Lilly (1602-1681) was a famous astrologer who made predictions regarding British politics of the time. One prediction was the Prophecy of the White King (made in 1644 after Marston Moor), which predicted a King would be beheaded or killed. Lilly wrote a letter to Charles I warning him of the prophecy. Anther theory, from Songs That Made History by H. E. Piggot,states the refrain from a popular Irish song when James II (a Roman Catholic) came to the the throne, had the Irish words, "Lere, lere, burlere." Lere meant religion or faith and burlere meant your faith. Piggot says a form of the tune was printed in 1661 in An Antidote against Melancholy which was set to words beginning There was an old man of Waltham Cross. As Wharton wrote the lyrics (1687) long after the rallying cry was claimed to have been used (1641) it appears the rallying cry translation is a myth. Wharton probably used the Gaelic for the lilli reference because when he wrote it the Stuarts were still in power. Wharton had never publicly supported the Stuarts. In the House of Commons Wharton had supported the bill to bar James from the succession because of his Catholicism and when William won the war Wharton was given prominent posts. It appears it was a political satire first and then a rallying tune - and the translation of "Lilli will be manifest, the day will be ours" was possibly Wharton's intent. John Gay used the tune in The Beggar's Opera. It was the British Broadcasting Corporation's signature theme during World War II. "Brother Teague" was then the nickname of the Irishmen (as "John Bull" would later be for Englishmen). |
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23 Oct 99 - 04:49 AM (#127118) Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism From: McGrath of Harlow If you ever listen to the BBC World Service, Liliburlero is still the station signature tune. There's a lovely video clip they use for promioting the BBC with the Dalai Lama humminmg it appreciatively.
Less charming are the words of "The Protestant Boys", which go with it in Orange circles in Northern Ireland and Scotland - Nationalism and folk music can be a dangerous mcombination.(And at the same time it's an example of how a good tune can move between enemies. Like that other Lili, Marlene.)
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23 Oct 99 - 12:10 PM (#127169) Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism From: wildlone I think I have seen similar threads in the past but. Music travels very well,Once every hall or grand house would have had musicians to entertain the lord and his guests. The lord would get fed up if he heard the same things performed so new material was needed. Itinerant groups of travellers went from place to place performing plays,songs and the like. you can soon see the singers/musicians getting together to exchange songs/music,[very much the way we do here at MC], and if you did not like the way it sounded you simply changed it, thus within a few years music could travel across continents. Now with modern technology everything is instant. wildlone |
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23 Oct 99 - 01:13 PM (#127191) Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism From: j0_77 Thanks Gargoyle, I am honored to have been able to do so much. BTW What is 'sarky'. Kat, how dusty is that book? Atichouuuueeee... |
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23 Oct 99 - 01:28 PM (#127195) Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism From: wildlone j0 77 'sarky'is vulgar slang for sarcastic or for a person that uses sarcasm. def A bitter or wounding remark. thats our boy. I do hope that cleared that one up.wl. |
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23 Oct 99 - 01:40 PM (#127201) Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism From: j0_77 Thankyou wildone - |
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23 Oct 99 - 03:42 PM (#127233) Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism From: bseed(charleskratz) It seems to me if one is frequently "miss-interpreted" (sic), then that one probably ought to work a bit on his communication skills (that mountain ain't gonna move, so Mohammed's just gonna have to hoof it on over). --seed |
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23 Oct 99 - 06:12 PM (#127283) Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism From: Freddie Fox Sorry, back to lili bulero - the tune used for the world service is actually Mozart - part of ones of his symphonies, but I can't remember which one! |
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23 Oct 99 - 06:18 PM (#127285) Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism From: bseed(charleskratz) Is this the same song that was popular in the fifties--"Laroo, laroo, lili-bolero"? Was that a ripoff of a traditional tune--and a parody of its lyrics? Looks like I may have stepped on my tongue above, as I have been known to do on occasion. --seed |
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23 Oct 99 - 06:25 PM (#127289) Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism From: Freddie Fox This is the thing, and we seem to have gone full circle. If the tune first appeared in 1641, then it must predate Mozart, and so he used the, by then, 'traditional' tune as part of one of his symphonies. [He's not alone in that - see Vaughan Williams, Holt, Debussy and others]. However, there is apparently a 'traditional' French folk song which used a tune by Mozart!!! Will try to dig it out when I can remember where I found, unless someone else beats me to it. |
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24 Oct 99 - 04:06 PM (#127556) Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism From: Frank Hamllton Lilibulero was used as a basis for parody by the early colonists as a protest song against England and King George. There's a book called "Songs That Changed The World". I've forgotten who wrote it. Was it Irwin Silber? Frank Hamilton |
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24 Oct 99 - 05:30 PM (#127568) Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism From: bseed(charleskratz) But is it the same song? --seed |
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24 Oct 99 - 08:44 PM (#127615) Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism From: Art Thieme I've always felt that if hell had a religion, it'd be Nationalism. Art |
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24 Oct 99 - 11:35 PM (#127671) Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism From: rich r "Songs that Changed The World" si by Wanda Willson Whitman, 1969 |
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25 Oct 99 - 08:21 PM (#127943) Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism From: Mían I would say rather than anonymity, it is universality (did i spell that right?)or the universal language of a memorable piece that makes it loved...it strikes a universal chord. Knowledge of the author(s) does not necessarily detract from the appeal of a tune, be it solo or co-operative. In fact, that knowledge sometimes adds to the appeal, does it not? |
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26 Oct 99 - 03:54 PM (#128300) Subject: RE: Folk and Nationalism From: Frank Hamilton The song "Lillibulero" is not the same song as "Hi Lili Hi Low" from the Leslie Caron flick. There is also the antecedent of the labor union song, "Which Side Are You On" which is an old hymn entitled "Lay the Lilly-O". Frank Hamilton |