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19 Aug 12 - 09:20 PM (#3392496) Subject: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Bobert According to Missouri Republican Senate candidate, Todd Akin, who is running against Democrat Senator MsCaskill there exists "legitimate rape"??? I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around this argument... B~ |
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19 Aug 12 - 09:32 PM (#3392503) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Wesley S Not exactly courting the women's vote is he? From ABC News: Missouri Republican Senate candidate Rep. Todd Akin, who opposes abortion in most cases, including rape, said in a television interview today that it is "really rare" that victims of "legitimate rape" get pregnant. "From what I understand from doctors, that's really rare," Akin, who is running against Democrat Sen. Claire McCaskill, said in an interview on the "Jaco Report" on KTVI-TV. "If it's a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down." He added that if the woman does become pregnant, "the punishment ought to be on the rapist." McCaskill called the comments "offensive." "It is beyond comprehension that someone can be so ignorant about the emotional and physical trauma brought on by rape," she said in a statement. "The ideas that Todd Akin has expressed about the serious crime of rape and the impact on its victims are offensive." Akin later released a statement saying he "misspoke" and that he has "deep empathy" for victims of rape. "In reviewing my off-the-cuff remarks, it's clear that I misspoke in this interview and it does not reflect the deep empathy I hold for the thousands of women who are raped and abused every year," he said. " Those who perpetrate these crimes are the lowest of the low in our society and their victims will have no stronger advocate in the Senate to help ensure they have the justice they deserve." |
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19 Aug 12 - 09:35 PM (#3392505) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: GUEST,999 "Missouri Republican claims 'legitimate rape' rarely results in pregnancy" I read that headline and realized I have never before been rendered speechless by stupidity. |
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19 Aug 12 - 09:40 PM (#3392507) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Wesley S I want to hear from the doctors he got his information from too. They should have their licences reviewed. |
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19 Aug 12 - 09:57 PM (#3392510) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: gnu "the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down." This idiot is running for office? Good lord ! |
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19 Aug 12 - 10:02 PM (#3392513) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: katlaughing Newest form of birth control...wow. |
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19 Aug 12 - 10:11 PM (#3392516) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Joe_F My suspicion is that Mr Akin means "what can legitimately be called rape", that is, he imagines "legitimate" to be a fancy synonym for "actual". To judge from the rest of his talk as quoted here, he and his buddies have a theory that if a raped woman becomes pregnant, she probably cooperated to some extent, so the rape wasn't entirely for real. I can imagine why such people find such ideas comforting. |
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19 Aug 12 - 10:36 PM (#3392517) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: JohnInKansas It seems a little surprising that the 'Pubic-ans aren't up in arms about the very recent change in the FBI definition of rape, to make it inclusive of forcible "penetrations" of males as well as of females (along with a few other changes). For the benefit of those not familiar with US "justice" the FBI investigates and prosecutes only those crimes defined as Federal offenses in Federal law, and there are relatively few kinds of cases in which they would be involved in which rape would be one of the charges. Rape is variously and individually defined by state statutes, and most prosecutions are "local" according to the laws of the state where the offense occured. There is no real requirement for the state statutes to agree with the new definition, for purposes of enforcement; and it's unlikely that most states will rush to make thier laws agree. The prinicpal use of the new "definition" is to achieve more uniform reporting for purposes of the "crime statistics" that are maintained by the Feds, although most of the news writers who've reported on the change don't seem to have a very clear understanding of it's (lack of)immmediate significance. John |
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19 Aug 12 - 10:39 PM (#3392518) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Stilly River Sage You have your suspicions, but he cut to the chase with the idiocy. People who find that comforting have never had a brush with rape. Or have no common sense. SRS |
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19 Aug 12 - 10:44 PM (#3392519) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Rapparee So, he can be "legitimately" raped because he won't get pregnant? I suggest that he be. |
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19 Aug 12 - 11:54 PM (#3392529) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: artbrooks I couldn't find the quote, but I read something earlier today that said his use of that term was to distinguish "real" rape victims from all of the women who claim to have been raped so that they can get abortions with no questions asked. I'd suggest a Louisville Slugger, Rap. |
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20 Aug 12 - 06:10 AM (#3392583) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Jim Carroll The idiocy appears to be international - from accross the pond. Jim Carroll http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jameskirkup/100088446/can-ken-clarke-survive-after-suggesting-that-some-rapes-are-serious-and-others-are-not/ |
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20 Aug 12 - 08:01 AM (#3392617) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Leadfingers Jim's Link |
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20 Aug 12 - 08:20 AM (#3392623) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Jim Carroll Thanks LF Must learn to do that sometime Jim Carroll |
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20 Aug 12 - 09:14 AM (#3392639) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: catspaw49 Like I said when I linked this article on FB, this guy is an idiot and if you live in MO and vote for him, you're an idiot. Claire McCaskill gets a victory! Morning Joe was funnier than hell this AM. We'll see if Romney has the balls to throw this guy under the bus. If this were happening with Dubya or Obama or Clinton or damn near any other President or candidate, they would already have told this dumbass to resign from the race. We'll see........... BTW, anyone care for a swim in the Sea of Gallilee? This was one helluva' weekend for the GOP.....LMAO Spaw |
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20 Aug 12 - 09:19 AM (#3392640) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: artbrooks Romney already did, in about as direct a form as you could expect from a pol about somebody in his own party: "Gov. Romney and Congressman (Paul) Ryan disagree with Mr. Akin's statement, and a Romney-Ryan administration would not oppose abortion in instances of rape," Romney spokeswoman Amanda Henneberg said. |
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20 Aug 12 - 09:19 AM (#3392641) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Green Man I could introduce him to some people who would show him what rape is about. It'd be legitamate becouse I can guarantee he won't get pregnant (If he survives). What a TWONK! |
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20 Aug 12 - 09:53 AM (#3392651) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: catspaw49 Not strong enough Art but as strong as you can expect from Romney. Perhaps the back channels will be in play but most other previous guys would have been much stronger than Mitttens. Then again I think that even Dubya is probably preferable to Mittens............. Spaw |
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20 Aug 12 - 09:54 AM (#3392652) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Bill D This is what happens when conservative misogynous attitudes get enshrined in political rhetoric. Akin displays an antiquated view of not only law & biology, but also an appalling ignorance of the effects of opening his mouth on stuff he doesn't understand. The implicit1 goal of the GOP is to get as many men of this ilk installed in Congress as possible, so as to legislate such attitudes without having to defend them or explain them. 1.note... they mostly do not explicitlysay this. Reactionary conservatives usually don't spell out their idiocy so clearly. |
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20 Aug 12 - 10:46 AM (#3392661) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: GUEST This misogynistic piece of shite is on the Science Committee too. |
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20 Aug 12 - 10:49 AM (#3392663) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Greg F. Its kinda like "retroactive retirement", I guess. God must love assholes, he's made so many of 'em. |
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20 Aug 12 - 10:58 AM (#3392666) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Bobert "Well, Bubba, if them women didn't want to get raped then they shouldn't have picked to be born women..." ((((spit)))) Billy Bob |
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20 Aug 12 - 11:12 AM (#3392671) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: frogprince I actually heard a routine like this from a vehemenently anti-choice woman a few years ago. She explained that a woman can only become pregnant if she has an orgasm, and that no one would have an orgasm while being raped. Therefore no pregnant woman has an excuse to have an abortion because she was allegedly raped. At least that individual wasn't about to run for public office. |
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20 Aug 12 - 11:20 AM (#3392679) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: GUEST,999 It's impossible to argue with clear logic. |
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20 Aug 12 - 11:26 AM (#3392682) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Bobert ...or blatant ignorance... B~ |
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20 Aug 12 - 11:42 AM (#3392693) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Bee-dubya-ell I suppose the fundamentalist viewpoint on this subject is something like: If a woman is living a proper religious life, she can't get pregnant from a rape because God wouldn't let that happen. If she does get pregnant, it's her own fault for not being sufficiently pious. If the child isn't meant to be born, a woman can simply pray it out of her uterus. |
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20 Aug 12 - 12:45 PM (#3392727) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Little Hawk You should all thank this guy for helping make the Republicans look even worse than they already did, and thereby helping the Democrats get re-elected. Go on...just admit that you're secretly absolutely delighted about it, because you are. People who hate the Republicans (and I sure as hell don't like them) dream of this sort of thing happening. It's just more grist for the mill. Think how happy Obama and Hillary are that he said it! Break out the champagne! It could only be better if Romney or Ryan had said it. I'm not joking...I bet people on the Democratic campaign teams are positively chortling about it OFF camera and gleefully doing "high-fives"...whilst acting out their outrage and dismay for the mass media whenever they're on camera. As for Mr Akin...he has now learned to be VERY careful not to use the word "legitimate" to mean "actual"...specially when referring to heinous crimes like rape, but I suspect he has learned it too late to do him any good. ;-) Celebrate, Democrats and liberals everywhere! This character has not just shot himself in the foot, he's shot his whole leg off. |
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20 Aug 12 - 12:59 PM (#3392736) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: akenaton Society is so fucked up! If it wasn't so damned sad, it would be hilarious. |
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20 Aug 12 - 01:06 PM (#3392739) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Bobert Yo, LH... Okay, I admit it... B;~) |
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20 Aug 12 - 01:22 PM (#3392749) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: GUEST,nobody in particular Legitimate rape???? 'Happy days are here again' oh wait, isn't that your Democrat Party theme song? Or is 'legitimate rape' the outcome of the elections? or something like that. |
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20 Aug 12 - 01:26 PM (#3392754) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Bobert Well, it might not be rape but disenfranchising upwards of a million voters, mostly black, elderly or poor by the republicans certainly has the potential of effecting the outcome of the elections... B~ |
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20 Aug 12 - 02:21 PM (#3392779) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: akenaton BWL...I'm sure few of even the most devout Christians think like that and it does little good to pretend they do. |
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20 Aug 12 - 02:35 PM (#3392788) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: GUEST,nobody in particular You mean those with the lower education levels, don't you? Emotional blather, rather than fully informed electorate! Let's re-elect Big Brother, and reward those who brought you NDAA!! Silliness gone berserk! |
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20 Aug 12 - 02:46 PM (#3392795) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Little Hawk It's sort of like the USA's "legitimate invasions" of the past few decades, I think...only on an individual basis rather on than a national basis. Invasion, after all, IS rape. It's rape of an entire nation rather than an individual. Excuses can always be found by the politicians who do it. But it's clear from the context that Mr Akin was using the word "legitimate" to mean "actual"...not to mean "rightful". Nevertheless, he was a real dummy to say what he did, and his point was not a good or useful one in any case. Accordingly, he will now be hounded for it, and the Democratic Party will rejoice while the Republican Party attempts damage control. SSDD. |
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20 Aug 12 - 03:19 PM (#3392813) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: GUEST,Lighter Scoff if you will, but Congressman Akin is supported by some of the finest minds of the Middle Ages and Renaissance: http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/the-h-word/2012/aug/20/legitimate-rape-medieval-medical-concept |
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20 Aug 12 - 04:23 PM (#3392848) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Donuel truth alert Both Akin and Paul Ryan have been sponsoring a bill that makes distinctions between "forcible rape" and rape by means of drugged victims and statutory rape in order to limit the number of federally funded abortions to "legitimate forcible rape" only. Eventually they hope to eliminate forcible rape as justification for abortion. It is yet another example of Republican baby steps to a socialy engineered society unimaginable for most of us. |
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20 Aug 12 - 04:26 PM (#3392850) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: frogprince "I'm sure few of even the most devout Christians think like that and it does little good to pretend they do." And Ake is certainly right about that. But, apart from the obvious misuse of one word which is really an irrelevant slip of the tongue, Akin has made it apparent that he does "think like that", or at least thinks that a statement like that will go over well with his constituancy. And Rick Santorum, who definitely thinks a lot like that, won several state primary elections, which is still apalling. |
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20 Aug 12 - 04:48 PM (#3392875) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Bill D "..just admit that you're secretly absolutely delighted about it" The only thing *I* am delighted about is that one case or ignorance has been exposed. Do not doubt that there are many other conservative members of Congress, both local and national, who harbor similar views. Note that AFTER the part about parsing the concept of rape, Akin also said that IF there actually was a rape, the perpetrator should be punished...not the 'child'.... meaning- **No abortions**. Also note the unstated premises in these type of views. He is a Conservative Christian who holds the religious view that a 'soul' enters the zygote at the moment of fertilization. This **is** a religious view... not a medical one. The only proper viewpoint in such cases is... "If YOU believe this, then YOU should not have an abortion!"...not "If you believe this, you are granted the right to prevent others who may have different religious views from acting in accordance with their beliefs!" I am appalled that news pundits and organizations do not make this distinction clear. They do not have to take a position on it... just clarify what the argument IS! The major force of this Republican House of Representatives has been to pass all the most restrictive legislation they can about 'reproductive rights'. The say 'jobs', then introduce more anti-abortion and anti-contraception bills! Akin wants to add another of these voices to the Senate... I DO hope he continues to run so Senator McCaskill has an obvious point to make.... but there is already much pressure from Republicans to quit.. simply because now every Republican running will be asked in detail about their views on this. |
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20 Aug 12 - 05:11 PM (#3392888) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Donuel Akins aka mr botox is the Paul Ryan of Missouri and is an avid advocate of the personhood ammendment. With or without media, we all know what that means. |
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20 Aug 12 - 05:45 PM (#3392907) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Charley Noble Congressman Akins and other politicians of his persuasion are prime candidates for castration. We don't want or need their genetic contributions to the gene pool. I hope that is a clear statement of my position. Charley Noble |
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20 Aug 12 - 05:53 PM (#3392911) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: GUEST,Lighter WARNING! THE FOLLOWING MESSAGE CONTAINS DETECTABLE IRONY! > Do not doubt that there are many other conservative members of Congress, both local and national, who harbor similar views. And don't forget those members who blew the whistle a few months back on "terror moms" and their "terror babies." And their recent claim that one of Hillary's top staffers (the wife of Anthony Weiner) is "linked" to Islamic fundamentalism. And that most Democratic Congressmen are "Communists." > The only proper viewpoint in such cases is.... There you go again, using godless logic, which Martin Luther famously described as "a whore" ready to support any position you want. END OF IRONIC PASSAGES. > I am appalled that news pundits and organizations do not make this distinction clear. Actually, I've heard it stated again and again. But "making it clear" has no effect on the, er, voters you're talking about. And I'll repeat what I've said for quite a while: a lot of so-called "conservatives" (including, apparently, most of the Tea Party) aren't conservatives at all. They're know-nothing populists and proud as heck of it (except they *think* they're conservatives, and that's what they're proud of). Don't take my word for it. Read John Lukacs's "Democracy and Populism" (2005). Lukacs is a historian, a Christian, and an actual conservative who escaped the Third Reich and thinks populism, of the left and the right, is the biggest threat to civilization since Stalin and Hitler. |
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20 Aug 12 - 06:20 PM (#3392932) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Bill D "They're know-nothing populists..." Then it's about time that those who have a public voice... as do the news pundits that I mentioned above... see to it that they at least HEAR information that makes it harder to "know-nothing"! If slanted misinformation is not shown for what it is, by voices that are supposed to HAVE reasonable information, we are pissing into the wind! Stupidity cannot just be obliquely hinted at... it needs to be exposed. (That does NOT mean we all have to agree with ME... or with each other... it just means that fallacious reasoning and demonstrably false information must be identified and combated constantly.) One example...Texas buys a HUGE amount of school textbooks, and every conservative idea from anti-evolution on up...or down... gets stuck into textbooks that OTHER states get fed by default. School teachers need a way to teach how to THINK... not 'what to believe'. (I..ummm.. 'sometimes' see IRONY as a useful technique.) |
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20 Aug 12 - 06:47 PM (#3392944) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: ChanteyLass "Legitimate rape" is an oxymoron. Akins sounds like he is just a moron. |
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20 Aug 12 - 07:30 PM (#3392963) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: GUEST,Lighter By "legitimate" he pretty obviously meant "actual." The right believes that many women claim to have been raped when really they haven't. Because that way, their parents, husbands, etc., etc., may not object if they get an abortion. The link I provided makes "sense" of what he was getting at: the medieval belief that a woman can't get pregnant unless she has a, you know, that feeling they write about in Cosmopolitan. (Remember, I'm just the messenger.) |
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20 Aug 12 - 09:17 PM (#3393005) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: catspaw49 The entire situation as it relates to Ryan and Romney and the "new" far right GOP was summed up and put together perfectly (as it often is) by Rachel Maddow tonight in the first 15 minutes of her show, which is titled tonight as "The Men Who Stare at Zygotes." Spaw |
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20 Aug 12 - 09:58 PM (#3393021) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Big Al Whittle Its this weird thing. Theres a scene in that film about the Watergate and the washingtom Post, where one of the informants on CREEP says, I'm a Republican despite what I've got to say.... and the reporter says Well I'm a Republican too... And you WONDER why in hell the Republicans keep selecting these representatives who are people they are deeply ashamed of. I heard loads of people pretty pissed off to find that they were voting for Reagan. The younger Bush seemed to grow in popularity - but I heard a lot of people not initially happy with him as a candidat his insularity, his apparent lack of ability with the spoken word. |
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20 Aug 12 - 10:02 PM (#3393024) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Bobert Sorry, Lighter, but your story ain't working with most Americans... Including Romney and Ryan... Guess again... B~ |
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21 Aug 12 - 07:49 AM (#3393150) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: catspaw49 Here's a 20 Minute Clip from Rachel Maddow.......IT reviews the history and run-up to yesterday and the more important issue as it relates to Romney-Ryan. Spaw |
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21 Aug 12 - 08:29 AM (#3393160) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: akenaton I think there are far more "no nothing populists" amongst the ranks of the "liberals", than there are among "conservatives". Fair enough there are a few devout Christians...perhaps over zealous....naive? By the "liberal" army contains millions who swear by "rights for all" regardless of the consequences........probaly because they "know nothing" about the issues they have been manipulated into supporting by the media/ politics coalition Both "liberals" AND "conservatives" of course, support the stupidist cause of all......the corporate capitalist system. Surely by now the penny should have dropped? |
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21 Aug 12 - 09:08 AM (#3393170) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Musket The penny dropped after the first time I read a post from you. "There are a few devout Christians.. perhaps over zealous... naive?" Not much of a defence of them, even by your warped standards. Nice to see that a dangerous disgraceful politician who twists the impact of rape to fit in his superstition backed views is a result of "liberals." Perhaps too many Gay people would be classed as liberals eh Ake? Back in your box, there's a good chap. |
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21 Aug 12 - 09:29 AM (#3393175) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: GUEST,Lighter What is my "story" that "most Americans" have told you "ain't workin'" for them? |
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21 Aug 12 - 10:20 AM (#3393190) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Richard Bridge Bugger! Agreeing with Mither again. |
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21 Aug 12 - 10:48 AM (#3393200) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Uncle_DaveO His comments raise two issues: First, "Legitimate" rape. I think he was speaking not about the legitimacy (if there is such a thing) of rape, but the legitimacy or truthfulness of the report. This distinction doesn't get Akin out of trouble, though. Because the comment, however you phrase it, reveals more than a casual belief that many rape reports are untrue. I don't doubt that there are SOME false rape reports, but to assume that a significant portion of them are false sounds to me like misogyny. The other, or "medical", half of the statement reveals either abysmal ignorance or conscious falsehood, again based on misogyny. He says "doctors have told him". What kind of "doctors"? Doctors of podiatry? Doctors of Theology? Doctors of Veterinary Medicine? Doctors of Mechanical Engineering? Witch doctors? Even if his alleged informants are doctors of medicine, the plural term "doctors" may mean that somewhere in the United States (or maybe in the world) there are as many as two of them who are so ignorant or careless or malevolent as to tell him that. All of the above possibilities assume that Akin himself isn't just issuing a rape report without legitimacy. Dave Oesterreich |
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21 Aug 12 - 11:29 AM (#3393215) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: GUEST,Lighter He's officially asked for "forgiveness." It was just a case of having "used the wrong words." http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-todd-akin-releases-tv-ad-asking-for-forgiveness-20120821,0,2415111.story |
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21 Aug 12 - 12:34 PM (#3393231) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: artbrooks His use of the term "legitimate" aside, and taken as merely an ignorant lack of understanding of the English language, what I find more egregious is the comment in the next part of his statement that (and this isn't a direct quote, although it's easy enough to find) rape certainly deserves punishment, but it is the rapist and not the unborn child who should be punished (by, I assume, being aborted). The Republican Party, from Mr. Romney on down, is now condemning his statement in very harsh terms, and they have urged his to abandon his Senate candidacy. One cannot say - although one can certainly speculate - if this is because of the universal reaction to his statement or actual feelings on their part. |
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21 Aug 12 - 12:44 PM (#3393236) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: akenaton Musket....I dont agree with what Mr Akin said, even if he did "mispeak". Neither do I think thatMr Akin's words were the result of "liberals". What sort of reasoning produced that conclusion?.....The sort that Richard can agree with? :0) I was in fact just making the point that large numbers of "liberals" appear to be very easily manipulated by the media and politicians. Conservatives on the other hand tend to think for themselves tho' they are sometimes quite wrong IMO. See, it is possible to compose a post without being personal or acting like a thug. |
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21 Aug 12 - 12:47 PM (#3393238) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: catspaw49 I doubt its actual feelings Art as the GOP platform has a plank endorsing the "personhood" legislation. I'll believe they have changed when they withdraw the plank. Spaw Spaw |
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21 Aug 12 - 01:07 PM (#3393246) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: akenaton It always puzzles me why people who are so obsessed by "rights". can so easily ignore the "right to life" of an unborn child. |
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21 Aug 12 - 01:13 PM (#3393248) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: artbrooks It always puzzles me that people who are obsessed by the "rights" of an unborn child honestly believe that this means that a raped 12-year-old should be required to carry that fetus to term in order to uphold these "rights". |
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21 Aug 12 - 02:01 PM (#3393263) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Richard Bridge With Artbrooks. Morning after pill. |
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21 Aug 12 - 02:09 PM (#3393265) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Don Firth It's pretty clear from reading the news reports about Akin's supposed "foot in mouth" disease that what he meant by "legitimate rape" was actual forcible rape—no consent on the woman's part. In other words, "If she was really raped, and was not a cooperative partner in the act." But where Akin really blew it was when he displayed his abysmal ignorance of the reproductive process. Too bad he didn't go to a school where sex education was part of the health education classes. It's basic! Either that, or he knows better and was simply lying through his pearly whites. By the way, he's been trying to peddle this anti-abortion line about a woman not getting pregnant if she actually was raped for at least twenty years. But this was the first time he's been jumped on for it in the nation news. The man is either a liar or a fool!! Don Firth |
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21 Aug 12 - 03:01 PM (#3393277) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Bill D "Conservatives on the other hand tend to think for themselves..." Pardon me while I try...unsuccessfully... to stifle a guffaw! You mean like Rush's 'dittoheads'? Or the myriads who just nod in agreement at whatever their preachers tell them about morality, evolution and Obama's birth? C'mon, Ake... gimme a break. I am 73, and grew up in **Kansas**, and I used to TEACH conservative kids in Philosophy 101 classes. It was all I could do to even make many of them comprehend what 'thinking for themselves' was about! If you mean that 'being stubbornly unmoved' was similar to 'thinking for themselves', then yeah...maybe so. |
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21 Aug 12 - 03:18 PM (#3393280) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: catspaw49 What the fuck..........Every once in awhile it rushes over me in a torrent that just brings anger and disgust. What is it? It is the amazing fact that we have travelled backward in time for a century and are being forced to debate this utter and complete crap yet again. Also we're fighting the dumbass creationist types! What's the deal here? The deal is religion. Fuck a bunch of religion. Fuck EVERY religion. If you believe a zygote or a blob of tissue, has rights past the mother's right over her own body.....FUCK YOU and EVERYBODY WHO AGREES WITH YOU. After they're born I can't help but notice that many of those same assholes could care less about the quality of life they lead. Spaw |
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21 Aug 12 - 04:22 PM (#3393294) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Richard Bridge Damn - agreeing with Spaw too. |
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21 Aug 12 - 04:29 PM (#3393298) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: akenaton If you are talking to me Catspaw, I'm happy to say that I am not in the "rights for all" brigade. The people with the dilemma are those who preach rights for all, yet deny the right to life to an innocent living human being. Or do you believe that a foetus is not a living thing? Only a piece of gristle? |
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21 Aug 12 - 04:47 PM (#3393305) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Big Al Whittle who said anything about gristle? Ake in the land of the thistle Says watch out for the rights of gristle Please take a bit o' care It could become Roger Whittaker With a beard and a merry whistle |
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21 Aug 12 - 05:16 PM (#3393319) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: catspaw49 It isn't human....its gristle if that misnomer covers a tissue sample. Whatever it is, zygote or gristle, it has no rights in my opinion and it certainly does not have rights to make a choice for the mother. I don't give half a shit what it may become or who. Somebody else would fill that void from people like you or me or MLK or Einstein or Woody or anybody. Life would go on in some way with someone different finding the part that blob might have played. Certainly I am happy that Karen's mom didn't abort of the bio-moms of my two adopted sons but if they had, I would still have been dooddling along the road of life as would they had I never been here. To me the "great person" argument is bogus. Maybe the blob is a rapist or a murderer or a Hitler............ Spaw |
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21 Aug 12 - 06:01 PM (#3393346) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Bill D "...do you believe that a foetus is not a living thing?" It is different than a zygote. The reason medical people USE different words is to denote different status. A fetus describes a state BEYOND a simple bunch of cells. It is certainly not YET a 'child' as Akin wishes to call it. Now.... those who wish to believe that a group of cells which are not able to live on their own has a 'soul', may do so... but that is simply a belief. Many zygotes, because of problems, never make it to the fetal stage, and some fetuses never make it to 'baby' stage. Those who wish to explain this by inserting a 'god' into this chain of events must still recognize that is is a belief, and they must understand that others may not agree! They have NO right to legislate something that is based on one religious position. We ALL know that miscarriages...or abortions... are not enjoyable or desired situations, but sometimes reason demands considering whether that zygote needs to develop. Rape, incest, health and disturbed fetal development can suggest that we ought to use modern medical means to seek sensible solutions. Sadly, this can mean even terminating a desired pregnancy. You think I am just pontificating? Look up "triploidism"... which we had to confront 24 years ago.... it HURT... but there was zero chance of survival. People MUST be free to make that choice with the aid of qualified physicians and their own conscience. Bible waving conservative politicians should **NOT** be allowed to vote on it! And it's time Akin and others of his ilk understood that. We thought that it was settled in Roe v. Wade in 1973 when the Supreme Court agreed that it was a basic right to make that decision... it now needs to be defined as stare decisis "settled law". Akin and Ryan and all right-wing politicians need to shut UP and deal with real issues! |
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21 Aug 12 - 06:10 PM (#3393355) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: catspaw49 Thank you Bill......That's what I meant but I've just had it. I know anger is never a great route but now and again my tolerance and patience levels hit flood stage.............. Spaw |
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21 Aug 12 - 06:43 PM (#3393362) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Bill D awww... well, Take a breather... tell 'em I said it was ok.. ;>)... there was a wee bit of MY reaching my limit of reasonable debate in that post. I really try to stay on my ...ahem.. renowned philosophical coherence... but I agree... it gets tedious when idiots spew nonsense disguised as 'revealed truth'. |
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21 Aug 12 - 07:00 PM (#3393372) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Big Al Whittle Roger Whittaker with his beard and merry whistle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmDZgy3HpdU |
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21 Aug 12 - 07:47 PM (#3393390) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: gnu Big Al... I`ll bet he gets a lotta pussy with a tongue like that. I know it`s a stunned thing to do but I`ll add my two cents to the discussion re abortion. What Spaw said, in spades, up yer ass with a wire fuckin brush you uncompassionate, illogical, holier than thou I think that`s enough. Oh except for... it ain`t none a yer fuckin business anyway ya self-important control-freaks. Yer seriously fucked up. Your god help you if you are ever in trouble and someone like Spaw isn`t there to show some compassion to you. How do youse sleep at mightÉ |
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21 Aug 12 - 07:48 PM (#3393391) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: gnu night with a question mark. |
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21 Aug 12 - 07:53 PM (#3393394) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Bobert Yo, Spawz... I think you need to send the Cletus and the Reg Boys over to have a little talk with Congressman Aiken... Looking forward to reading how things went... B~ |
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21 Aug 12 - 08:44 PM (#3393406) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: GUEST,Lighter Do you believe a "seed" the same as a "watermelon"? That an "acorn" the same as an "oak tree"? That an "egg" is indistinguishable from a "chicken"? Do those who believe that zygotes and non-viable fetuses are "children" organize church funerals for miscarriages? If not, why not? According to the 2012 GOP Platform, a zygote or non-viable fetus (which has no free will by anyone's definition) always outvotes the pregnant girl or woman who, by any religious definition, *does* have free will and is *made free by God to use it*. And on top of that, the GOP demands a Constitutional Amendment that will say say so (though not, obviously, in quite those words). If you think abortions are sinful, no law says you have to have one! Either way, the decision falls to the woman involved, who is a person with the power to feel, reason, and act. She is not a *potential* person, with no power to reason or act (or even to feel at an early stage), any more than an egg is a chicken or caviar is a school of fish. |
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21 Aug 12 - 08:52 PM (#3393409) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Bobert Well put, Lighter... B~ |
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21 Aug 12 - 09:01 PM (#3393410) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Charley Noble I'm proud to announce that Michelle Goldberg who commented on this story for MSNBC (and comments on others stories there as well) was gracious enough to marry my only nephew some years ago, and therefore is part of my extended family. Cheerily, Charley Noble |
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21 Aug 12 - 09:23 PM (#3393415) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: catspaw49 Your nephew's a lucky man Charley! I've read her Beast columns and seen her on MSNBC ....... intelligent and puts it together well. MSNBC seems to have a load of young people who are waaaayyyy smart and personable. I recall she pissed all over Ann Romney awhile back which always cheers me up. Spaw |
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21 Aug 12 - 10:35 PM (#3393425) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Bill D " I recall she pissed all over Ann Romney awhile back.." Video??? what... you meant metaphorically? *sigh* |
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22 Aug 12 - 12:18 AM (#3393445) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: catspaw49 Found it........YouTube with the TEXT underneath also Spaw |
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22 Aug 12 - 03:34 AM (#3393467) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: akenaton I think the abortion debate is too complicated and far reaching to be adequately discussed on a forum like this. Its too easy for any of us to start points scoring when we should take time to think about all of the issues involved, even without taking religion into the equation. Like many other issues it has become "politicised" and when that happens, all reason goes out of the window. For the record, I am not against abortion per se, but I am distinctly uneasy about its use as a form of contraception. In our youth, most of us behaved in a responsible fashion towards girls. Now personal responsibility has been removed, even from the creation of human life. |
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22 Aug 12 - 04:27 AM (#3393486) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Musket OK. So as not to be seen as a thug, even by those whose opinion of me is irrelevant... 100% agree with one thing you said Akenaton. This is not the forum to adequately discuss rape. 50% agree with your thought that liberal minded people vs right wing people in terms of thinking for themselves. I say 50% because of course, your observation brings stereotyping to a whole new level. Bridge would be happy to be called a liberal minded chap, and as we constantly notice, he does think for himself. I am comfortable with liberal in broad terms too, and how often would I want to nail my flag to his mast? Oh, personal responsibility has been removed more than ever in society. I quite agree. Thinking that most behaved better before though is perhaps rose tinted and nostalgic, if yu don't mind me saying so. Problems were pushed under the carpet more, that's all. How many young girls went away with their mothers for a few months and the "mother" happened to have a baby whilst away, and brought it up having an elder "sister"? How many nunneries were full of traumatised late term abortion girls or if they were lucky, given up their child at birth? Public health records are full of them.......... And they are no modern phenomenon either. |
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22 Aug 12 - 12:26 PM (#3393647) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Uncle_DaveO "I recall she" (Michelle Goldberg) "pissed all over Ann Romney awhile back." Maybe, as a humanitarian act, she was trying to cure Ann of a fungal infection. I know I haven't read anything about Ann Romney currently suffering from Athlete's Foot. Click Here! Dave Oesterreich |
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22 Aug 12 - 03:00 PM (#3393710) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Bill D Just for information, here is the article by a doctor that so many conservatives have been basing their beliefs on for the last decade.... and perhaps before as the theory was published in his book from 1985. This doctor ("a general practitioner with obstetric training and a former president of the National Right to Life Committee") is now 87. Various eminent medical experts have called the article & the theory 'nonsense' and worse. This whole thing is an example of folks like National Right to Life Committee doing a "place the dart where you want it, then draw the bullseye" trick. They WANT a certain conclusion. so they distort & invent facts and use convoluted explanations to defend it.... much like the entire Republican party is depending on for many issues right now. |
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22 Aug 12 - 03:21 PM (#3393726) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: akenaton We must think very carefully before abandoning all responsibility for our actions, especially where the creation of life is concerned. |
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22 Aug 12 - 03:53 PM (#3393739) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Bill D Yes? So? What IS "abandoning all responsibility "? Generic slogans don't say much. I can agree with your assertion and maybe NOT agree with any details you suggest. |
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22 Aug 12 - 04:08 PM (#3393748) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: catspaw49 Uh....yeah......How about a definition here of this "abandoning responsibility" that you bring up? Spaw |
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22 Aug 12 - 04:35 PM (#3393763) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: GUEST,nobody in particular I, think that because Akin used the word 'rape', America is tantalised! Their imaginations are running wild, and now must weigh in! Next will be, hearing about abortions for gay rape. That's how silly you yanks tend to get! |
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22 Aug 12 - 05:13 PM (#3393777) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Bobert How quickly we have forgotten why abortion was legalized in the first place... It was a civil rights issue... People were getting abortions... If they were white with means they went to Mexico for that "special weekend" (wink. wink)... If they were poor, different story... Back-room abortions where many thousands of women died from the procedure... This ain't exclusively about the right or wrongness, which is a personal decision but fairness and civil rights... B~ |
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22 Aug 12 - 05:18 PM (#3393779) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: gnu Musket... "100% agree with one thing you said Akenaton. This is not the forum to adequately discuss rape." Ahhhh... I dunno where you read that quote, Musket??? Can you cite it? Ake... "I think the abortion debate is too complicated and far reaching to be adequately discussed on a forum like this." Are you shittin me? Yer gettin yer ass handed to you on a plate and THAT is your response? Seems to me your response is that of a coward who would rather run away than be taken to task and proved wrong (which is exactly what has been happening herein). Seems to me the only reason you want to run away is that you cannot support your arguements. Sooo... here's the real deal... YOU ain't adequate for this discussion on this site or for participating in a democratic and compassionate society. Your ideals and beliefs belong in a time of witch trials and such. Oh yeah... since the people in this forum are not up to par with you, I shant expect to see you post here again. |
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22 Aug 12 - 05:39 PM (#3393794) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: GUEST,nobody in particular Of course this forum isn't adequately equipped to discuss rape. Most of what people post in here is nonsense, refutations of factual posts with reputable sources, and juvenile mudslinging. Sorry, Gentlemen, but that's exactly how you come across! There ARE exceptions of course , but if I were to name them, it would only start another stupid argument! |
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22 Aug 12 - 06:22 PM (#3393811) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: gnu "it would only start another stupid argument!" Odd... given that that was NOT the statement made that I addressed. Even more odd is that "nobody" asserts that the people in this forum are not intelligent enough to discuss WHATEVER. I dare say it takes someone of very limited knowlwdge and intelligence to make such a statement. Unless such someone is simply a troll stirring up shit... is that a possibility? Yes... I know. I just haven't anything better to do in such a small window while I wait for my next client. |
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23 Aug 12 - 12:04 AM (#3393891) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: John P Akin's comments were based on an article from 1972 a Dr. Mecklenburg. The article was in a book published by an anti-choice group. Mecklenburg's theory was based on "research" that had been conducted by the Nazis in concentration camps, where they would pretend to kill women who were about to ovulate so they could see the effects of terror on ovulation. Mecklenburg also said that rapists tend to not be fertile because of frequent masturbation. Article in Seattle Times If it was fiction, I'd think the story was too far-fetched to allow me to suspend my unbelief. |
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23 Aug 12 - 02:53 AM (#3393907) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: akenaton Bill...Rape is a crime under any circumstances, there is no discussion required on that....end of story. The result of rape is sometimes pregnancy ...sometimes not, so the debate moves on to dealing with the results of rape. The abortion issue. I could write a whole page on this, but as our sensible guest has noted, on this forum it would only cause another "war" as most here are too politically polarised to look at the issue objectively. In the UK the creation of life is often used as a means of obtaining a better standard of living,to the detriment of the rest of community, not the fault of the young girls invoved, but of society for encouraging the culture where this sort of conduct is permissable. The same lack of responsibility applies to the termination of new life, this invoves a whole discussion on the function and ethos of motherhood and as any fool can see, on a forum like this that would be well nigh impossible, |
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23 Aug 12 - 03:11 AM (#3393909) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Richard Bridge That is complete nonsense. Very few people opt to become pregnant in order to live on benefits. Check the level of benefits. They are too low for a decent life. The assertion that a fertilised egg is a life has been comprehensively demolished above. Once again Ake, you seek to vassalise others. |
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23 Aug 12 - 04:14 AM (#3393920) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Jim Carroll "That is complete nonsense." Yes it is, and old nonsense. The accusation that women become pregnant to obtain benefits has been the cry of every religious fudamentalist throughout my life. It has also been reguarly used by the Conservative right to undermine the benefits system for as long as I can remember with crass statements like "We must think very carefully before abandoning all responsibility for our actions". Abortion is a complicated issue and it really time the dinosaurs among us begin to come to terms with those complications and stop making peoples lives a misery at a time when they are at their weakest and most vunerable. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/aug/31/colombia.religion http://maboulette.wordpress.com/2012/01/29/the-10-year-old-mexican-girl-who-gave-birth/ Jim Carroll |
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23 Aug 12 - 06:01 AM (#3393942) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Jim Carroll From this morning's Irish Times Jim Carroll GROUP REMOVES CLAIMS ON RAPE CONOR POPE YOUTH DEFENCE has removed content from one of its websites suggesting the chances of a woman becoming pregnant as a result of rape are remote. The information, which was on one of its websites until Tuesday night, said women had "natural defence mechanisms" which reduced their chances of becoming pregnant following sexual assault. When contacted by The Irish Times, the organisation said it now considered this claim to be "unreliable", although it ruled out an apology for its assertion. Its prolifeinfo.ie website said: "Trauma from the rape may bring into play some natural defence mechanisms that reduce the likelihood of pregnancy, such as hor¬monal change and spasms of the Fallopian tubes, which inhibit ovu¬lation or fertilisation." The site added: "The chance of conception resulting from a single act of unprotected intercourse even between consenting fertile individuals has been estimated at only 2 to 4 per cent." These statements were deleted this week. Youth Defence spokeswoman Ide Nic Mhathuna con¬firmed the changes and said it was a voluntary organisation with a number of websites that were "hard to keep up to date all the time". She said it had "reviewed the information on that particular website earlier this week and decided that the study upon which it was based was too old, so we removed it". She agreed the claims had been removed only following the contro¬versy surrounding comments from US congressman Todd Akin but stressed that, unlike him, her group had never used the phrase "legitimate rape". Dublin Rape Crisis Centre chief executive Ellen O'Malley-Dunlop said she did not wish to be drawn into a row with Youth Defence but highlighted statistics contained in the centre's last annual report. "We had 263 clients who said they were at risk of pregnancy follow¬ing a rape and of that number 25, or 10 per cent, subsequently became pregnant," she said. The Rape Crisis Centre national helpline is 1800-778888. Religious right peddles myths to control women: page 14 |
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23 Aug 12 - 07:16 AM (#3393961) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Sawzaw Minn. lawmaker in rest stop scandal won't drop bidST. PAUL, Minn. (AP) — A Minnesota Democrat who had a rest-stop sexual encounter with a 17-year-old boy said Wednesday he's still running for re-election, defying party leaders who urged him to drop out as they battle to regain control of the state Legislature.Rep. Kerry Gauthier, 56, told Northland's NewsCenter in Duluth that he will let people in his district decide his political future, "rather than the political power base in St. Paul." Gauthier told the news network he is "a better person than this incident portrayed me." Democratic Gov. Mark Dayton said Gauthier's decision would be "destructive" for his reputation, his district, his party and the state. Police say Gauthier admitted engaging in oral sex with the boy on July 22 after the first-term lawmaker from Duluth advertised on Craigslist for "no strings attached" sex. Police declined to charge him because the boy was older than 16, the legal age of consent, and no money was exchanged. Gauthier has not returned repeated calls and messages from The Associated Press since the scandal broke. "I am sorry for the hurt this has caused my family, friends and my constituents. I know I made a mistake and am determined to make amends as best I can," Gauthier said in a statement posted online by the Duluth News Tribune. He appeared in a photo on the network's website with a few supporters. In the interview, Gauthier explained his hospitalization last week as the story became public by saying he had taken several muscle relaxants and lost consciousness. "I took an overdose of pills to not feel any pain and this resulted in my hospitalization," he said in the statement, adding that he has been in recovery from chemical dependency for 30 years with one relapse. Gauthier told the station his unwillingness to accept he is gay led him to engage in the inappropriate liaison in a public place. He said he is getting counseling. He also said he feels badly for the teen and wouldn't talk specifically about the incident to protect the boy. "I can change my behavior, but I cannot change the fact that I am a gay man, and have known this since my college days. I simply must act like a mature gay man would act, and not as the incident portrays me," the network quoted him as saying. His decision drew condemnation from Democratic leaders including Dayton, who urged Gauthier to drop out of the race. Democrats need to gain at least six House seats in November to take control of the chamber. Democratic-Farmer-Labor Party Chairman Ken Martin and House Minority Leader Paul Thissen said Gauthier would get no support from the party or the House DFL caucus. "It's a terrible mistake on his part," Dayton told reporters at the Capitol. "I think it's just something that goes beyond the morals of Minnesotans — to solicit on Craigslist sex with a minor and do it in a public area, publicly owned area, as a state legislator, and come back to the parking lot with his clothes disheveled. It's not about whether it's a same-sex or a heterosexual act. It would be the same if it were the same circumstances involving a heterosexual individual." Sen. Roger Reinert, DFL-Duluth, who shares a district with Gauthier, earlier urged Gauthier to skip a Friday special session on flood relief for his district and surrounding areas hit by severe flash floods in June. Reinert said Gauthier would be a distraction and could end up being censured by majority Republicans, or even blocked from taking his seat in the House chamber. "That's not what we need right now," Reinert said. "What we need is all eyes and efforts focused on recovery." Republican leaders called on Gauthier to resign immediately, but Dayton and other Democrats have not. Dayton said his signed agreement for the special session with top Republican and Democratic legislative leaders would preclude a House vote on Gauthier's conduct because it limits the scope of the special session. A spokeswoman for the GOP House caucus had no immediate comment. Rep. Tom Huntley, a Democrat whose Duluth district adjoins Gauthier's, told the Duluth News Tribune he considers Gauthier a "child molester." "Why would anybody support someone that did what he did?" Huntley said in an Associated Press interview. "I am a strong supporter of gay rights, but that does not mean 55-year-olds with 17-year-olds. And I just can't imagine the public would approve of that." But Gauthier has support from labor activists, including Alan Netland of the Northeast Area Labor Council. "He had a personal problem but it doesn't affect the fact that he's a great representative for working people," Netland said. Duluth firefighter Erik Simonson launched a bid as a write-in Democratic candidate for Gauthier's seat Tuesday. Duluth City Councilor Jay Fosle also has filed paperwork to run as a write-in candidate. Republican Travis Silvers already is on the ballot. |
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23 Aug 12 - 07:16 AM (#3393962) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: catspaw49 Ake......In this country, your statement is both nonsense and also has racial overtones. Spaw |
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23 Aug 12 - 08:11 AM (#3393970) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Penny S. I think what many of the people here - and I use the word people with care, as I see almost all to be men - are missing is a deep truth which modern society has been ignoring. As revealed to Greek philosophers and subsequently medieval Christian scholars, women are not actually human beings at all, and are thus not possessed of any human rights. We are, in a word used of fertilised zygotes above, mere blobs, given as much of animal life as necessary to support the development of future people, that is males. Since it cannot be determined in advance whether a foetus is actually a person, male, or a potential incubator, it must be assumed to have full rights until such time as it is born, when the matter becomes clear. Since, as an incubator, a woman has no rights, she must be the property of some man, who has the right to inseminate her when he wishes, and thus cannot be guilty of rape (even if incestuous), while a stranger can be legitimately accused of this action. It is mere wish fulfilment on the part of the owner to assume that sex without consent cannot result in pregnancy. This belief, of course, allows the deduction that the woman has, as it were, stolen herself, as incubator, from her owner, and is thus deserving of chastisement. 'Spaw's wonderful anger at the stupidity of people holding these beliefs is thus ignorant of this truth, and his generous extension of consideration to women is only like that which people may extend to their pets. When I get angry, a part of my brain goes off into stuff like this. I am, of course, not angry with 'Spaw or others of his opinion. Penny |
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23 Aug 12 - 09:30 AM (#3393994) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Charley Noble "YOUTH DEFENCE has removed content from one of its websites suggesting the chances of a woman becoming pregnant as a result of rape are remote." Very timely but an apology would still be in order for hosting for an extended time such an outrageous statement. Sawzall's new story above is another pathetic attempt to gain attention. The shocking story is not related to the topic of this thread unless he believes it's a case of "rape," legitimate of otherwise. Charley Noble |
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23 Aug 12 - 09:34 AM (#3393998) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: catspaw49 Wonderfully put Penny........... Spaw |
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23 Aug 12 - 11:36 AM (#3394042) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Bill D "The same lack of responsibility applies to the termination of new life, this invoves a whole discussion on the function and ethos of motherhood and as any fool can see, on a forum like this that would be well nigh impossible>" *shaking my head at Akenaton's continued evasive, dissembling faux-answers to direct questions about his beliefs.* Deliberate termination of ANY life... at ANY stage MEANS 'taking responsibility', whether it is a good decision or a bad one. If 'responsibility' is defined in your premises as only 'protecting' life in all cases, YOU cannot reasonably discuss "the function and ethos of motherhood". (No...it is not absolutely clear that such IS your definition, because you dance around the topic with vague language while blaming the 'forum' in general for not cooperating.) As to the idea that many women in the UK use pregnancy to get benefits, several of your countrymen have answered that. We hear that in the US also, but its incidence is greatly exaggerated to support things like racial bias. |
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23 Aug 12 - 11:55 AM (#3394052) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T ""We must think very carefully before abandoning all responsibility for our actions, especially where the creation of life is concerned."" And that would, to your way of thinking, mean that a raped sixteen year old should be sentenced to a minimum eighteen years of child rearing (for a child she didn't want, but was forced to accept), while the rapist, assuming he is caught (which is by no means certain) gets six or seven? Sheesh! Even nine months gestation followed by adoption is too much IMO! Don T. |
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23 Aug 12 - 12:01 PM (#3394055) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: artbrooks I'm trying to remember where I saw the news article about the rapist who sued his victim for child visitation rights. |
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23 Aug 12 - 12:24 PM (#3394066) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: GUEST,Lighter Probably the same woman I just saw on CNN. The court threw out the father's suit. The mother says she takes no political position on "pro-life" or "pro-choice." Which I take to mean that she's effectively "pro-choice." |
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23 Aug 12 - 12:31 PM (#3394071) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: GUEST,Lighter The outspoken people who believe that lots of women falsely claim to the authorities that they've been raped must think it's pretty easy to lie consistently to police detectives. If the cops find an innocent suspect, then the woman has to lie in court, knowing that she's trying to convict an innocent man and that she'll go to jail herself if the fraud is exposed. Only a certain kind of psychopath is that calculating and stupid at the same time. How anybody can believe that it happens routinely is beyond me. |
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23 Aug 12 - 12:52 PM (#3394083) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Penny S. You've forgotten. You are talking about women, who are mere simulacra of humans, and do not have brains. Penny |
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23 Aug 12 - 01:02 PM (#3394094) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: The Sandman we now have presidential candidates that are not just puppets but brainless puppets. incidentally, how many posters here think it is possible for a woman to rape a man? |
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23 Aug 12 - 01:31 PM (#3394102) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: akenaton Catspaw....I am not at all surprised that you find my post "nonsense", you seem to think that way about everything I write, but I am truly amazed at the "racial overtones", would you be kind enough to explain this to me, as it appears to be nonsensical? Penny seems to believe that any woman who chooses to fulfill her primary natural function and bear children, is nothing more than an incubator, performing a service for men.....with no rights? Well I could take her to a thousand mothers in this area who would tell her exactly what they think of that piece of nonsense. Women here are proud of the children they produce and nurture, fortunately, the vast majority here still support the family structure, tho' a change is afoot. The "incubators" are the young girls who have decided to follow the "liberal" ideology, not for "men", but to improve their living standards. In fact men become redundant after insemination as benefits would be cut if they lived together. Young single mothers in this area are automatically given a house rent free and benefits which increase with the number of children produced.....it is a massive scam and is happening all over the UK. Of course the kids can hardly be blamed for what they do, there is simply nothing else for them but a life of poverty....living with often impoverished parents, without any kind of meaningful job and with the spectre of drugs all around. Jim Carroll is wrong. I know exactly what I am writing about. |
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23 Aug 12 - 01:35 PM (#3394103) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Musket Gnu. You asked me to cite my comment? Citing My own comment would assume I am repeating somebody else? Now granted, to say I 100% agree with Akenaton is a bit strange to say the least, but I don't need to cite where I got it from. I obviously got it from having had a drink too many.... But I do 100% agree with the deluded paranoid bugger. I don't think this is a forum to successfully discuss rape. |
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23 Aug 12 - 02:04 PM (#3394121) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Ebbie "Since it cannot be determined in advance whether a foetus is actually a person, male, or a potential incubator, it must be assumed to have full rights until such time as it is born, when the matter becomes clear." Great line, Penny S. Explains so much! |
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23 Aug 12 - 03:28 PM (#3394148) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Jim Carroll "but to improve their living standards" Your repeating this without proving facts ad figures to substantiate it doesn't make it any less crass than the repetative vomiting of your homophobic bile. I've been listening to such garbage for the best part of my life from every conservative dinosaur who would wind the clock back to the middle of the nineteenth century when women knew their place and men wore caps they could doff when the guv'nor passed.. "Jim Carroll is wrong. I know exactly what I am writing about. " Often, but not here Jim Carroll |
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23 Aug 12 - 03:58 PM (#3394157) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Jim Carroll From the analysis columns of today's Irish Times which seems to have its finger on the pulse of what's happening in the relio-funda camp Jim Carroll RELIGIOUS RIGHT PEDDLES MYTHS TO CONTROL WOMEN Fionola Meredith The creationists are on the move and they have their sights set on the Republic US congressman Todd Akin is part of a long tradition of the religious right denying women agency over their bodies IF YOU'RE a politician, there are the things you secretly believe and then there are the things you say. This week, US Republican congressman Todd Akin's mouth ran away from him when he was asked about his opposition to abortion, even in the case of pregnancy resulting from rape. In a now notorious response, he said: "It seems to me, from what I understand from doctors, that's really rare. If it's a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down." Let's leave aside the profoundly offensive idea of "legitimate rape" (the opposite of which, by implication, is soft, cuddly, harmless rape) and focus on Akin's ludicrous central claim. Does he really believe women's reproductive systems have an in-built border patrol force, designed to hunt down and kill hostile sperm? The unpleasant logical corollary of this is that if a raped woman becomes pregnant it is the fault of her body, which has presumably failed to whip down the cervical portcullis in time. Akin is now desperately backtracking from his comments but you can bet he is far from alone in clinging to such crackpot notions. He is merely the latest in a long, ignominious tradition of men who mythologise women's procreative capacities while denying them agency over their bodies. They are unashamed to play fast and loose with science, which is not surprising, because this is not about cool, clear, objective facts. It is about manipulation, power and control. Nor are such reprehensible tactics confined to the American religious right. They have been successfully exported all over the world, particularly the unproven, fear-mongering claims that there are causal links between abortion and breast cancer or depression. Here in Ireland, the prominent anti-abortion website prolifeinfo.ie has been peddling equally spurious nonsense. The site states that trauma from rape "may bring into play some natural defence mechanisms that reduce the likelihood of pregnancy, such as hormonal change and spasms of the Fallopian tubes which inhibit ovulation or fertilisation". It bases this outlandish suggestion on a 35-year-old journal article that focused on the sexual performance of the rapist during the assault, rather than the victim's ordeal. Anti-abortion campaigners are not the only religiously inspired zealots who use garbled science, imported direct from the US, to advance their aims. The Young Earth creationist lobby has practically turned it into an art form. Creationists, who believe God created the world 6,000 years ago, insist that every word of the Bible is the literal truth. They have developed a wobbly pseudo-scientific framework to justify their beliefs, borrowing selectively from mainstream research, misrepresenting legitimate findings, and filling the gaps in between with dodgy theories of their own making. In debate, creationists favour the blitzkrieg approach, firing off a barrage of misinformation that would take six days and six nights to refute painstakingly. It's a bit like the old X-Files government conspiracy slogan: "deceive, inveigle, obfuscate". All this would be a matter of harmless curiosity were it not for the fact that creationists want this hokum taught as scientific fact in schools, museums and galleries. They are politically powerful in Northern Ireland - two DUP Assembly ministers are Young Earth creationists - and they have already scored a small but significant victory with the inclusion of their views at the new Giant's Causeway Visitor Centre in Co Antrim. Don't be tempted to dismiss this as more wacky business up north, irrelevant to the rest of the island. The creationists are on the move and they have their sights set on the Republic. Next month, Creation Ministries, a global creationist outreach group, is bringing its Olympics-inspired "Carrying the Creation Torch" UK and Ireland tour to events in Cork, Kerry and Louth, and they are looking for recruits, especially young ones. Evidence suggests these creationist seeds may be falling on pretty fertile ground. There has been a dramatic rise in evangelical Protestant churches in the Republic in recent years, with Pentecostalism proving particularly popular. This conservative church has a strong tradition of biblical literalism, and well-established connections with the US religious right. Perhaps the intense, emotional style of worship - guitars, dancing, speaking in tongues - seems like an antidote to years of staid Catholicism. Here it's all about the feeling: personal experience and a direct relationship with God takes priority over doctrine. Let's be clear: this is not an attack on Christian faith in its entirety. (There's nothing the extremists like better than to treat any criticism as some kind of evil, smouldering broadside against God.) But with the decline of the Catholic Church, a vast spiritual vacancy has been created. Creationists and their ideologically driven fellow-travellers are eager to fill it. They may be pre-Darwinist in spirit but they speak in the persuasive modern language of equal rights. Some of them are even pretty hot on the guitar. If they gain ground in their dangerous crusade it will be at the expense of democracy, science and truth. |
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23 Aug 12 - 04:25 PM (#3394171) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Bobert So a few folks think that this subject is too complex to discuss... How many Catters know someone who has been raped??? Can I get a show of hands??? I know several and I'm sure everyone knows at least someone... That makes the discussion a valid one... As for the fetus??? If the government is going to force women to carry it then the government has a moral obligation to support that child all the way thru college... I'm not talking a handful of Food Stamps here... I'm talking parental support because, in essence, the government become the parent when it forbids an abortion... B~ |
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23 Aug 12 - 05:32 PM (#3394195) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: akenaton Jim...... I have access to facts and figures, but I do not have authority to print them here. I take it you live in Ireland?.....perhaps things are different there. Are you saying that I am telling lies? |
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23 Aug 12 - 05:42 PM (#3394199) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Penny S. ake - irony? |
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23 Aug 12 - 05:46 PM (#3394200) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: akenaton Better tell Ebbs. :0) |
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23 Aug 12 - 06:07 PM (#3394208) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Bill D "I do not have authority to print them here." You need AUTHORITY to post legitimate facts? wow.... You realize that claims of facts...but no facts... means nothing? One comment on the article by Dr. Willkie who gets quoted so often and is a major current source of the current misinformation. He says that is case of a "legitimate rape" a woman is not likely to become pregnant because "the tubes are 'spastic'" As a medical doctor, he should know that 'spastic' is hardly even recognized as a medical term any more. He intends to say that fear somehow causes 'tightening' of the Fallopian tubes, making it harder for sperm to navigate..... which totally ignores the fact that, as one REAL expert has said..."sperm are really small and swim very well". THOSE are facts! What kind do you have Ake? |
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23 Aug 12 - 06:20 PM (#3394210) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: gnu "I don't think this is a forum to successfully discuss rape." Wrong. It's just a coward's way out of getting trashed repeatedly for being stunned as me arse. BOBERT! Amazing post, man. You kicked the arse of this donkey that won't carry. My hat is off to you... if it's not too sunny. My old bald head can't take the sun much... or the crap from some of the idiots and trolls on this thread. |
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23 Aug 12 - 06:21 PM (#3394211) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: catspaw49 Ake said: "the creation of life is often used as a means of obtaining a better standard of living,to the detriment of the rest of community, not the fault of the young girls invoved, but of society for encouraging the culture where this sort of conduct is permissable." That's one of those dog whistles lines only missing "THOSE people" to be more blunt as it is a phrase far more often applied to African Americans in the past. Perhaps it was not your intention. Still waiting on your "Level of responsibility" definition as well as a answer to Bill. Spaw |
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23 Aug 12 - 07:38 PM (#3394242) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: GUEST,Lighter Whoa, Penny S.! Mea culpa!! |
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23 Aug 12 - 07:42 PM (#3394248) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: frogprince "Penny seems to believe that any woman who chooses to fulfill her primary natural function and bear children, is nothing more than an incubator, performing a service for men.....with no rights?" 1. Anyone who can come up with that interpretation of what Penny said is so blinded by his own prejudice as to make any normal reading comprehension impossible. 2. The primary natural function of a woman is to bear children?? Do you consider the primary natural function of a man to be pumping semen into a woman? Ake will now say that my making that analogy proves that I am an idiot. |
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23 Aug 12 - 08:01 PM (#3394263) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: SINSULL Having been a rape victim myself - at gunpoint - I was sickened by Akins comments. I luckily was not pregnant. But anguished for weeks hoping for a period that was weeks late - my body stopped working as my anxiety increased. Guess there's something to it. I wonder about the women in Africa and Haiti who have been gang raped with the specific goal of impregnating them to destroy families and therefore society. This whole argument, as I see it, is to fight the claim that statutory rape is not rape at all. Consenting female, resulting pregnancy (what was the name of that girl who was kept in a shed for 13 or 18 years having babies????? Of course it wasn't rape - she kept getting pregnant.) So...statutory rape, not being rape at all (Proof: Pregnancy provided by a willing female) does not merit consideration for abortion. My question - where are all these self righteous god-fearing people when it comes time to provide a home and an education for these children. Has Akin adopted any? That VP wannabe? Rant over. SINS |
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23 Aug 12 - 08:32 PM (#3394287) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: GUEST,Lighter > Do you consider the primary natural function of a man to be pumping semen into a woman? The proper analogy would be that a man's natural function (if he has one) is to father as many offspring who live to maturity as possible. Not that it would make that much more sense. Except from the most extreme Darwinian evolutionary standpoint, that is. |
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23 Aug 12 - 08:45 PM (#3394293) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Bill D "function" is an anthropomorphic term. It is a fact that males of lower species who have the drive... and luck.. to impregnate many females have more offspring who also have the same drive. But for humans, that concept is only marginally relevant. It is not required that any particular male have numerous offspring...despite what some seem to think. The only hope for humans in the long run is that we DO work out how to sanely regulate our obvious evolutionary advantage and limit our offspring. The very IDEA of unrestricted reproduction is mathematically frightening.... and those who want NO abortion OR birth control are kidding themselves. "Be fruitful and multiply" was relevant at one time...but if you believe God said that, remember that he also gave us brains to know that he didn't mean "forever" with no limits. |
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23 Aug 12 - 08:56 PM (#3394300) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: frogprince Agreed, Lighter, that that is really the better analogy. We have an apalling number of people, usually but now always male, who seem bent on defining women and their lives from just that "Darwinist" viewpoint. A substantial share of them would curse Darwin as a satanic denier of biblical truth. I've seen no evidence whatever of any movement to define males, or legislate their lives, in any comparable way. |
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23 Aug 12 - 09:03 PM (#3394302) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: katlaughing CONSIDER THE COAT HANGER. Excellent piece, imo. |
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23 Aug 12 - 10:09 PM (#3394330) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Janie And for those who tend to think this is about party politics and positions, or liberal vs conservative.... Why have men lost touch with reality over rape? The only part of her op-ed I might take some issue with is her qualified compassion for men forced to rape their daughters and wondering how they might be able to obtain erections under the circumstances, thus somewhat obliquely condemning them as perverts. |
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23 Aug 12 - 10:29 PM (#3394335) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Bill D from kat's link.. "because abortion occurred mostly on the black market, they were very dangerous: One estimate placed the annual death toll at 5,000 women." For the arithmetically limited.... that is 13.7 deaths PER DAY. In the mid 1960's in Wichita, Kansas, I knew a chiropractor who dabbled in being a slumlord...and illegal abortions. I do not 'know' whether anyone died from his work. He was an interesting guy, and quite decent in many ways... and he told himself he was providing a needed service! Because in Kansas in 1963 there was no simple way out of an unwanted pregnancy. No one bothered him or reported him. In 2009, a doctor doing abortions legally and safely was shot 15 minutes from where the guy in 1963 worked 'almost' openly. You may speculate about what that all means.... I have my opinions. |
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24 Aug 12 - 03:13 AM (#3394376) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: akenaton I do not believe that women who terminate a pregnancy for perhaps career reasons, or some other reason not associated with their health or the health of the child, are not in some way damaged. |
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24 Aug 12 - 03:31 AM (#3394379) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: akenaton Regarding reproduction, humans may in fifty years, live in a totally different society.....perhaps a society where only greater rates of reproduction can ensure the survival of the species. Even today, in many countries birth rates are falling, the worlds population may be growing but in the West we are an aging population. Another negative result of our idiotic socio/economic system. |
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24 Aug 12 - 03:33 AM (#3394381) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: akenaton As i said before, this is not the place for a serious discussion on abortion......political polarisation rules. |
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24 Aug 12 - 03:53 AM (#3394384) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Jim Carroll "....are not in some way damaged." An appalling statement which is a leap back into the religious fundamentalist dark ages when sex was merely a necessary evil to produce children and women were no more than baby machines. Mysoginism (alongside homophobia) rules OK Jim Carroll |
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24 Aug 12 - 05:57 AM (#3394406) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Penny S. Having gone back to the dark ages for the premises for my post, I was not happy to hear today, on Woman's Hour, BBC R4, an African woman, in a discussion on agriculture, say that one of the problems in her part of the world, is that agencies trying to improve farming cannot deal with the people who work the land (without exception women) as the owners because "women cannot own land. They are seen as the property of the men, husbands or fathers, and so cannot own anything themselves." If you see a person as property, you are seeing them as a thing, not a fellow person. That is what seems to be behind rape, seeing women as things. Seeing the differences below the neck as more important tjan the likenesses above it. Seeing the thoughts, mental gifts, skills and so on of women as of secondary importance to the uterus, or, in the case of rape, the vagina or other abused orifice. Or even non-existent. (The committers of rape clearly do not take the creation of life as seriously as they should, but I notice nothing has been said of that.) Someone here has done little to convince me that he recognises women as beings of equal status to men. Mind you, he has gone some way to persuading me that I may be wrong in assuming commonality between male and female intelligence. Thank goodness so many others are keeping me unpersuaded. Penny |
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24 Aug 12 - 06:02 AM (#3394407) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Penny S. I couldn't open kat's link. In the other Akin and Galloway are called misogynists. This is defined as hatred of women. I don't think this is what we are seeing. To hate them, the existence of women as people must be recognised, surely. These men have not extended any empathy they feel for others to women, do not extend their theory of mind to them. This blanking of a recognition of women as thinking, feeling beings needs a different name. Penny |
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24 Aug 12 - 06:15 AM (#3394410) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Penny S. And the comments below the other are truly depressing. Loads of mostly men with too much time on their hands moaning about misandry, women raping men, and false accusations. Say something sane, please! Penny |
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24 Aug 12 - 07:34 AM (#3394428) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Jim Carroll "Say something sane, please!" What we seem to be getting here from Ake and his dinosaurs is a ramble down memory lane back to the good old days when women knew their place as baby makers - if the weren't in the kitchen preparing meals, that is. A telling phrase in his latest offering "terminate a pregnancy for perhaps career reasons" does not take into consideration all the other reasons for unplanned and unwelcome pregnancies; underage experimentation, contraception failure, peer pressure or ignorance, religious and opposition to sex education, culturally built-in mysogony and sexism, the constant presentation of women as 'available' in our tabloid press and on our screens, or simply "that's what is expected of a woman"...... and one of the great unmentionables, rape within marriage. I was astounded to learn that rape within marriage did not exist as a crime in Britain until 1991. We might have travelled a fair distance in the last few decades, but we've still got a long way to go. Jim Carroll |
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24 Aug 12 - 08:27 AM (#3394441) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Penny S. Ake won't take any notice of this article because of where it was published. Only the sum of the parts? The paragraph that stood out for me was this: "Someone dealing with the actual decision to terminate a pregnancy isn't ignoring the issue that dominates pro-life legislation – the moment when life begins – she is simply unable to ignore the other questions that need to be answered: is she ready for a child? Who is the child's father – and is he ready? And, yes, how does she feel about the act that brought the child into being?" From the comments, this struck others the same way. There are some more masculist (not happy about that word, really) responses, but even the opposers of abortion are fairly reasonable. Penny |
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24 Aug 12 - 08:54 AM (#3394451) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Greg F. ...are not in some way damaged. If there's anyone "damaged", Ake old boy, its you. |
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24 Aug 12 - 08:55 AM (#3394452) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: GUEST,Lighter > A substantial share of them would curse Darwin as a satanic denier of biblical truth. My point exactly. |
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24 Aug 12 - 01:55 PM (#3394560) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: akenaton But the left loves Darwin?......so. |
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24 Aug 12 - 02:36 PM (#3394574) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: GUEST,nobody in particular Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Jim Carroll Date: 23 Aug 12 - 03:58 PM RELIGIOUS RIGHT PEDDLES MYTHS TO CONTROL WOMEN Fionola Meredith The creationists are on the move and they have their sights set on the Republic US congressman Todd Akin is part of a long tradition of the religious right denying women agency over their bodies IF YOU'RE a politician, there are the things you secretly believe and then there are the things you say. This week, US Republican congressman Todd Akin's mouth ran away from him when he was asked about his opposition to abortion, even in the case of pregnancy resulting from rape. In a now notorious response, he said: "It seems to me, from what I understand from doctors, that's really rare. If it's a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down." Let's leave aside the profoundly offensive idea of "legitimate rape" (the opposite of which, by implication, is soft, cuddly, harmless rape) and focus on Akin's ludicrous central claim. Does he really believe women's reproductive systems have an in-built border patrol force, designed to hunt down and kill hostile sperm? From: SINSULL Date: 23 Aug 12 - 08:01 PM Having been a rape victim myself - at gunpoint - I was sickened by Akins comments. I luckily was not pregnant. But anguished for weeks hoping for a period that was weeks late - my body stopped working as my anxiety increased. Guess there's something to it. You two should talk it out! and leave politics out of it!!! |
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24 Aug 12 - 03:46 PM (#3394594) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Jim Carroll "You two should talk it out! and leave politics out of it!!! " With respect, while you have my sympathy for what must have been an appalling ordeal, from the outset this has been a political issue, namely a Republican State candidate making an outrageous statement about a serious crime. Once religion and politics become involved in issues like this common sense and humanity fly out of the window. Whatever the outcome for you, there are many many, more for whom the result was different and who were denied necessary assistance. I live in Ireland where not too long ago a termination would have been out of the question, no matter what the circumstances of conception - and this because of th power of a church undermined by child rapists and a hierarchy that allowed them to continue their activities for the good of the church. Jim Carroll |
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24 Aug 12 - 04:07 PM (#3394598) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: akenaton Apologies, my post of 03:13 today is perhaps unclear. It should read, "I do not believe that women who terminate a pregnancy for perhaps career reasons, or some other reason not associated with their health or the health of the child, are not in some way damaged by the experience." |
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24 Aug 12 - 05:17 PM (#3394621) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: The Sandman legitimate rape definitely exists, but not in the sexual sense. economies get raped, the countryside gets raped, people get exploited,Ireland and iceland have been raped to name just a couple I know this is not what this dumbass politican meant, and he is dumb |
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24 Aug 12 - 05:31 PM (#3394628) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: frogprince "I do not believe that women who terminate a pregnancy for perhaps career reasons, or some other reason not associated with their health or the health of the child, are not in some way damaged by the experience." Taking that at absolute literal face value, it could imply a belief that a woman who terminates a pregnancy because it was initiated by rape or incest is "damaged by the experience". Do you allow that the mental implications of carrying a pregnancy caused by rape or incest are "associated with their health" so as to justify a decision to terminate the pregnancy? |
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24 Aug 12 - 05:32 PM (#3394630) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Uncle_DaveO Ake said, in part: "the creation of life is often used as a means of obtaining a better standard of living," Well, if Ake had just quit there I'd agree with him. My wife and I acquired three great kids, and it gave us a better standard of living, as it was intended to do. That's the reason many, and probably most parents have kids, to improve their lives. Dave Oesterreich |
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24 Aug 12 - 07:05 PM (#3394661) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: GUEST,Lighter > "I do not believe that women who terminate a pregnancy for perhaps career reasons, or some other reason not associated with their health or the health of the child, are not in some way damaged by the experience." Maybe they are. And it's their own damned business. I mean, "their taking of personal responsibility." |
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24 Aug 12 - 07:34 PM (#3394672) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Bill D "But the left loves Darwin?" The left *I* know loves truth & fact... as close as can be found. Darwin by himself is only a step. and that long 'fixed' quote about "...perhaps career reasons, or some other reason not associated with their health or the health of the child, ..." is STILL an evasive position.....kind of a generic statement with no substance, like "I firmly believe overeating might cause some weight gain" right.... tell us something...or don't bother. |
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24 Aug 12 - 07:41 PM (#3394674) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Bobert We keep hearing these people who would force a woman to carry a rapist child complaining about the "Nannie State"... Well, consider this scenario... Single woman raped and impregnated by rapist... "Pappa State" decides for woman that she must carry the child... Given the fact that the rapist is unknown and not able to support this woman and her child it is logical that the "Pappa State" would be obligated to act as a surrogate father and owes this woman and that child everything that any responsible father would be required to provide, including college funding... B~ |
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24 Aug 12 - 08:39 PM (#3394696) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: SINSULL My comment "maybe there's something to it" was irony not surprisingly lost on many. Stress had nothing to do with my not getting pregnant - later medical history confirmed and I will leave it at that. Thousands of pregnancies result from rape in the US every year - not my statistic, NPR's. The tragic suffering of the mothers carrying proof of their nightmare to term and the children, hated, abandoned, put up for adoption - innocent children contrasted against a smug misogynist who believes he has divine support - incredible ignorance and hubris. You and I are on the same page, Jim. |
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24 Aug 12 - 09:53 PM (#3394728) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Janie Or women who choose to have and keep babies from pregnancies that result from rape, and then are faced with a justice and family system unequiped to deal with the rapist father who later demands parental rights.... http://www.theatlanticwire.com/national/2012/08/31-states-grant-rapists-custody-and-visitation-rights/56118/ The referenced CNN article |
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25 Aug 12 - 02:52 AM (#3394771) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: akenaton I am not suggesting that any woman is "forced" to carry a rapists child. Simpy that the abortion issue is much more complicated than that, thankfully very rare tragedy. Polititical agendas always try to make complicated social issues seem simple......it is often referred to as "dumbing down the populace" |
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25 Aug 12 - 03:02 AM (#3394774) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Jim Carroll "You and I are on the same page, Jim." My sincere apologies Sinsull. Jim Carroll |
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25 Aug 12 - 03:12 AM (#3394777) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: akenaton Frogprince...that very difficult choice must be left to the mother. I do know of a person who had a child under similar circumstances brought the child up, loved her, and they were extremely close until the lady's death about five years ago. The girl was and still is the image of her mother. I know that is, as Bill is always saying, "meaningless"; but it is another nuance to a difficult social issue. |
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25 Aug 12 - 09:28 AM (#3394870) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: frogprince "...that very difficult choice must be left to the mother." I agree with that unreservedly. I believe that most, if not all, of those here whom you regularly castigate as "liberals" would also agree unreservedly. I'm not sure that you grasp the extensiveness of the effort by American so-called conservatives to take that choice away from the mother. |
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25 Aug 12 - 10:38 AM (#3394899) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Wesley S And now the right doubles down: Tennessee state Sen. Stacey Campfield (R) falsely claimed on Thursday that it was nearly impossible for someone to contract AIDS through heterosexual contact. "Most people realize that AIDS came from the homosexual community," he told Michelangelo Signorile, who hosts a radio program on SiriusXM OutQ. "It was one guy screwing a monkey, if I recall correctly, and then having sex with men. It was an airline pilot, if I recall." "My understanding is that it is virtually — not completely, but virtually — impossible to contract AIDS through heterosexual sex." It is generally accepted that at some point HIV crossed species from chimps to humans, but there is no evidence that this was caused by bestiality. Rick Sowadsky of the Nevada State Health Division AIDS program noted in 1998 that it highly unlikely that HIV was transmitted through inter-species sexual contact, given the behavior of chimps and the differences between the sexual anatomy of humans and other primates. According to the the Center for Disease Control, male-to-male sexual contact has been the most common way to transmit AIDS, followed by injection drug use and heterosexual sex. Campfield briefly gained national attention in 2011 when he introduced legislation that critics derided as "the don't say gay bill." "[Homosexuals] do not naturally reproduce," he told Signorile. "It has not been proven that it is nature. It happens in nature, but so does beastiality. That does not make it right or something we should be teaching in school." Raw Story (http://s.tt/1de0M) |
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25 Aug 12 - 11:08 AM (#3394909) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: GUEST,Lighter > "It was one guy screwing a monkey, if I recall correctly, and then having sex with men. It was an airline pilot, if I recall." Totally moronic and a good indication of how this guy thinks and retains facts. Just imagine trying to "screw a monkey." My guess is that it's neither easy nor very desirable. The first reported case of AIDS was diagnosed in an Air Canada steward. So far as is known, he hadn't screwed any monkeys. Several earlier probable cases have since been identified. It's more likely that AIDS jumped the species barrier when infected monkey blood flowed into an open wound on the hand of a hunter. But Campfield believes that more gays than straights have sex with monkeys. The absolute number of such people may well be zero. |
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25 Aug 12 - 12:17 PM (#3394931) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: John P "As i said before, this is not the place for a serious discussion on abortion......political polarisation rules." The only reason this has become such a political issue is that so many people want to make laws about how other people should behave. If we get the so-called conservatives out of our personal lives, the issue stops being anything other than an extremely difficult personal decision on the part of a woman who finds herself with an unwanted and/or unsupportable pregnancy. It doesn't matter how the pregnancy was caused. That's not the issue. The issue is whether or not our government has the right to force citizens to adhere to a moral code -- and one most often based on religion -- that is only believed in by a portion of the citizens. It's a privacy issue and a separation of church and state issue. "Taking responsibility for a situation" can be defined as terminating a pregnancy if termination is the more responsible of the choices. Many, many factors are involved. Trying to say that the only "responsible" action is to bear the child is the same as trying to force others to adhere to a moral and/or religious code they don't share. To be fair, akenaton doesn't seem to be proposing that abortion be illegal. But since he is putting up the same flawed arguments as the people in the United States who are trying to make it illegal, he's getting tarred with the same brush as they are. The big commonality between him and the American theocrats is the apparent assumption that acting according to his moral code is the only responsible and natural course of action. I can put up with that kind of arrogance in him, since there's no way he can have any effect on anyone's choice -- he's extremely unpleasant to have in a conversation, but not really dangerous. It's the theocrats that are the real problem. |
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26 Aug 12 - 02:06 AM (#3395238) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: akenaton Statistically Wesley, the is exremely uncommon to become infected by heterosexual sex....."impossible" is incorrect. In the USA. Homosexuals by CDC's reckoning account for 2% of the population. They also account for over 70% all new cases. The calculation is relatively simple. |
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26 Aug 12 - 06:09 AM (#3395292) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: ChanteyLass Here's what the Renegade Raging Grannies have to sing about the subject. I'm not fond of the f-word or final gesture, but in spite of that thought this was too good not to share. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Anc_gP2_QeI |
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26 Aug 12 - 08:42 AM (#3395345) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: GUEST,Lighter It's physiologically difficult for a *male* to get AIDS from heterosexual sex. It's a cinch for female. The reason is not hard to find. |
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26 Aug 12 - 12:45 PM (#3395443) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Penny S. I don't think ake has included figures from Africa in calculating the difficulty of getting HIV from heterosexual sex, or else he's just ignoring women again. Penny |
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26 Aug 12 - 12:53 PM (#3395448) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Bill D a longish article about early AIDS and possible origins |
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26 Aug 12 - 02:21 PM (#3395482) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: GUEST,Saulgoldie Well, it is inevitable that a deconstruction of which rape is legitimate and which is not, that the true goal is to ban abortions, period. Since we have waded into those waters...whatever the cause of the pregnancy, whatever one's definition of a living human deserving full rights, it comes down to this. Does the mother/womb decide for herself if she will carry the fetus to term, or does the government? Clearly many people feel that the government should make the decision, and that it does, indeed have the right to do so. Rationalizing it on religious grounds--that are not the same for everybody, by the way--does not change the fact that it is not the person directly involved making this huge decision. Many of us feel that she should be allowed to make that decision for herself, whatever the reason, and that to make public policy to the contrary is to diminish her personhood. Making decisions as to what happens in a woman's womb is tantamount to rape, which is where the current round of this discussion began. Saul |
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26 Aug 12 - 02:41 PM (#3395488) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Uncle_DaveO Here's your friendly neighborhood pedant with a "...that very difficult choice must be left to the mother." The girl/woman who is thought to harbor a zygote or fetus, whether as a result of rape or of consensual coitus or of supernatural intervention, is not "a mother" at the point where abortion is a question. She's a pregnant woman, or a gravid female, or a maybe a biologic incubator, or, informally, a preggie. But not until the birth--be it natural or induced or by caesarean section--occurs is she "a mother". Dave Oesterreich |
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26 Aug 12 - 05:11 PM (#3395553) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: GUEST,Lighter They used to be called "mothers-to-be," but for some reason that term has fallen from favor. |
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26 Aug 12 - 06:05 PM (#3395578) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: GUEST,Lighter Bill, nearly 30 years after coming up with this idea, Cantwell (a dermatologist) seems to be alone in accepting it. |
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26 Aug 12 - 06:06 PM (#3395579) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: GUEST,Lighter I mean among AIDS researchers, of course. As for the general public.... |
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26 Aug 12 - 06:54 PM (#3395597) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: GUEST,nobody in particular I simply asked SINSULL and Jim Carroll to relate her personal experience without politics, and what do they both do? yap politics. So, is politics a way of avoiding discussing reality, so you hide behind it, like someone is supposed to be your spokesperson?and you feel or know nothing of your own? Politics: Keeping an arm's distance from reality Get a life! |
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27 Aug 12 - 04:24 AM (#3395768) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: akenaton Frog prince....I DO understand the issue, even from the US perspective. Simply using abortion as a means of ridding oneself of an inconvenience....as in for career purposes, because the child would affect ones lifestyle, or simply being too lazy, stupid or drunk to ensure adequate contraception methods are used, is morally repugnant, irresponsible and a sure sign of society in decline. To force women to carry a child when it may harm her health, or several other factors like some forms of rape, is just as repugnant. The problem is universal and compromise is required from both side. Rape has come to mean so many things......so many definitions....have WE always asked specifically for permission before having sex? I doubt it very much. |
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27 Aug 12 - 10:06 AM (#3395897) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: John P Rape has come to mean so many things......so many definitions.... Nope. Not in my book. Rape is rape. have WE always asked specifically for permission before having sex? I doubt it very much. The question should be "Have we always taken 'no' for an answer, even if the women was unable to enforce it?" The answer for me is yes. |
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27 Aug 12 - 10:26 AM (#3395902) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: GUEST,Lighter > "so many definitions." Like what? |
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27 Aug 12 - 12:18 PM (#3395936) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: akenaton When we were young, body language and nuance were our guides in these matters.....permission was never sought.....OR expected. Anybody asking "permission" would have been thought weird, to say the least! It was deemed to be bad sexual etiquet to give the young lady the impression that you thought her "available". of course we all took no for an answer, but in the Assange case he had sex with the girl with consent they both slept in the same bed till morning, then he had sex again while she was asleep....is that rape?.....that is one of the charges Mr Assange is to face in Sweden. How does one police "rape within marriage" is it always clear who means what and is "force" always physical? How does revenge for some previous slight fit in? It is a veritable minefield. These issues are never simple, and legislation must have common sense at its core. Precious little common sense in "liberalism" as can be seen from the equality agenda....populist nonesense. |
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27 Aug 12 - 01:04 PM (#3395957) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Richard Bridge Ake, you appear to be simple. And not in a good way. A person may and can consent without the use of words. But a person who is asleep (or otherwise unconscious) cannot consent. Therefore when Assange introduced his penis (if he did) while the woman was asleep, it was rape. Depending on the relevant applicable law he might have a defence on the basis that he reasonably thought she was awake and was consenting. I doubt it would run under English law. Implied consent to sex within marriage has not been part of English law for some time now. Please try to keep up, and to learn right from wrong. |
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27 Aug 12 - 03:16 PM (#3396001) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: GUEST,nobody in particular You're still making it political! Absolutely astonishing how uninvolved and insensitive can politics turn people into! It's like talking about leaning about 'relationships' instead of people, that way you just ended a 'relationship' and chalk it up to a 'learning experience', and now you add it to your 'relationship knowledge', to use for your next 'relationship', instead of actually losing a person! a wife, husband or child: so what? They are only 'relationships', and you are a loveless idiot! |
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27 Aug 12 - 05:27 PM (#3396065) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: artbrooks {I sincerely hope that I did not completely change the intended meaning of this sentence by omitting several words:} Simply using abortion as a means of ridding oneself of an inconvenience....as in simply being too lazy, stupid or drunk to ensure adequate contraception methods are used, is morally repugnant, irresponsible and a sure sign of society in decline. So, a woman gets drunk (or her date gets her drunk), has sex while in a state of diminished capacity (or maybe she is entirely unconscious), and becomes pregnant. Newsflash: this is what is called rape. |
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27 Aug 12 - 06:23 PM (#3396099) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: akenaton Art....as I think you probably know, I was not discussing rape in the post you quoted, but abortion. Newsflash: One doesn't have to be raped to become pregnant. Never a good trick to edit peoples posts to score points. Stick to your league....or go play with Richard. |
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27 Aug 12 - 06:37 PM (#3396104) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: artbrooks Ake, you were discussing both rape and abortion in that post...or at least you mentioned both, if that doesn't count as discussing - 'abortion' is in line 1 and 'rape' in line 3. My point is that one of the events that you specifically list as resulting in what you term "an inconvenience" is a form of rape. In fact, in that particularpost, you actually use the term "some forms of rape". |
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28 Aug 12 - 11:04 AM (#3396437) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: akenaton Art...sorry for being snarky, i think i see what you are getting at but it is not the meaning i intended. Please read that post again and i think the meaning will become clear, as i dont think altering it will help....Ake |
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28 Aug 12 - 12:50 PM (#3396511) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T ""These issues are never simple, and legislation must have common sense at its core. Precious little common sense in "liberalism" as can be seen from the equality agenda....populist nonesense."" Strip away the totally irrelevant politics aand the bottom line becomes: It is not my business, your business, the government's business or any body else's, other than the woman concerned. We are entitled to approve or disapprove according to our own beliefs, but not to control or coerce. In the UK the Church of England, which has some input into government, is taking a moderate stance. In the USA religion is expressly debarred from influencing government by the Constitution, yet so called Christians are ignoring that fact and attempting to control government. In neither case is government legislation based on religious beliefs appropriate. The argument about falling populations is specious. This world needs fewer people......desperately! Don T. |
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28 Aug 12 - 03:27 PM (#3396605) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: frogprince But if the heterosexual people stop reproducing, eventually most of the population will be gay men with HIV! |
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28 Aug 12 - 10:27 PM (#3396772) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: John P Ooh, if gay people became the majority they could get married legally. Not only that, they could tell the rest of us that since being hetero is a choice, we don't get to have the same civil rights as they do. I remember well the day I decided to be heterosexual. I was thirteen, and this girl at school suddenly became the only thing I could think about, specifically about kissing her and . . . stuff . . . that I didn't really know anything about yet. I remember thinking, "Gosh, I could be a homosexual if I want. I wonder if I should? I could try to kiss a boy . . ." And then, of couse, I decided to go ahead and like girls after all. I'm sure everyone remembers that moment when you decided what you will be turned on by. Fond memories . . . |
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29 Aug 12 - 02:59 PM (#3397140) Subject: RE: BS: 'Legitimate Rape'??? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T It'd probably be a much more caring, sensitive and tolerant world if gays of both sexes were in the majority. It might take some of the testosterone fueled nastiness out of mankind. Don T. |