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22 Aug 12 - 04:49 AM (#3393492) Subject: Folklore: Is it Really Folk Music???(:-( 0)= From: Henry Krinkle Is it? If the person singing and playing has only experience the folk lifestyle from afar and out of songbooks? Singing about cotton picking, chaingangs, murdering their baby, hoboing, pawn shops, etc. Or is it just poser music? If you haven't lived it, it shows in your music. Cute and funny, but not the real thing. Like Son House called it, Monkey Junk. (:-( ))= |
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22 Aug 12 - 05:02 AM (#3393499) Subject: RE: Folklore: Is it Really Folk Music???(:-( 0)= From: theleveller Ooooer! The words "cat" and "pigeons" spring to mind. Pass me my tin hat, mother. |
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22 Aug 12 - 05:25 AM (#3393503) Subject: RE: Folklore: Is it Really Folk Music???(:-( 0)= From: GUEST,Stim You really did it this time, Henry. |
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22 Aug 12 - 05:32 AM (#3393508) Subject: RE: Folklore: Is it Really Folk Music???(:-( 0)= From: Henry Krinkle Well. I've lived it. I didn't pick up guitar in a college dorm room. I picked it up in reform school. And lived my life with the hot Georgia sun beating on my skin. Working construction. Operating heavy equipment.Not fluorescent lighting. Working in an office. Growing fatter and fatter. (:-( D)= |
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22 Aug 12 - 05:43 AM (#3393512) Subject: RE: Folklore: Is it Really Folk Music???(:-( 0)= From: Ole Juul Working construction. Operating heavy equipment.Not fluorescent lighting. Working in an office. Growing fatter and fatter. Where I live, people work mostly with heavy equipment doing mining and road work. A few more gentle souls work in construction. It seems to me that someone who had actually worked in the exotic world of an office with florescent lighting would have a more colourful and interesting story to tell. YMMV |
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22 Aug 12 - 05:53 AM (#3393514) Subject: RE: Folklore: Is it Really Folk Music???(:-( 0)= From: Henry Krinkle Yea. All about office politics. He's using my coffee cup. She stole my pen. The boss says I have to work late. BlahBlahBlahYakYakYakYak! (:-( P)= |
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22 Aug 12 - 06:31 AM (#3393522) Subject: RE: Folklore: Is it Really Folk Music???(:-( 0)= From: Henry Krinkle But tonight they'll go to a hootenanny and sing about being lynched on the chaingang by the Captain. For being his wife's back door man. And drinking his whiskey.And not picking enough cotton fast enough. (:-( O)= |
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22 Aug 12 - 07:11 AM (#3393530) Subject: RE: Folklore: Is it Really Folk Music???(:-( 0)= From: Dave Hanson Oi 'enry (:-(O)= away. Dave H |
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22 Aug 12 - 07:19 AM (#3393534) Subject: RE: Folklore: Is it Really Folk Music???(:-( 0)= From: GUEST,Ed We have a term for people such as Mr Kringle around these parts: "Complete prick" |
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22 Aug 12 - 07:21 AM (#3393536) Subject: RE: Folklore: Is it Really Folk Music???(:-( 0)= From: Henry Krinkle Oohhh!Methinks I touched a nerve!! (:-( ))= |
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22 Aug 12 - 07:26 AM (#3393540) Subject: RE: Folklore: Is it Really Folk Music???(:-( 0)= From: Henry Krinkle It really doesn't take much to elicit curses and namecalling here. Just ask simple questions And be attacked for asking them. Shame on you. (:-( P)= |
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22 Aug 12 - 07:32 AM (#3393543) Subject: RE: Folklore: Is it Really Folk Music???(:-( 0)= From: GUEST,wyrdolafr "songs about murdering your baby" I wonder how many people who sang those kinds of songs back in Ye Olden Folke Times, actually killed their own babies? Not many I presume, such an admission of infanticide would probably got you as far as the 3rd verse before the audience turned on you and some form of constabularly was trying to get to you (to hang you officially) before the mob did (unofficially). Similarly, do people have to commit crimes in order to have 'permission' to sing about criminals. I've been in prison myself, but would have had to have specifically been in Folsom before I sang 'Folsom Prison Blues'? There's a lot of social commentary in folk music which is still relevant today. Whilst the specifics might be different (in Britain, there's very few 'folk jobs' left following the downscaling of employment in heavy and light industry), the principles are the same: people at the bottom of the pile getting shafted by the people at the top of the pile. Also, since a lot of those jobs are no longer in existence, a peek into a world that no longer exists in the same way is pretty important. Lots of miners and agricultural labourers in my family tree and songs involving that kind of work are of interest to me: those folk stories are my relatives stories and I'd rather stories like that weren't forgotten. |
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22 Aug 12 - 07:38 AM (#3393544) Subject: RE: Folklore: Is it Really Folk Music???(:-( 0)= From: GUEST,wyrdolafr The ultimate conclusion of this argument is people can only sing songs they've wrote themselves as, no baby murder, prison song, work song &c will every really be specific enough to the singer otherwise. Not sure many folkies will be happy about that. |
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22 Aug 12 - 07:44 AM (#3393546) Subject: RE: Folklore: Is it Really Folk Music???(:-( 0)= From: GUEST,999 Well, folks, ya don't have to drive vehicles to sell them, but the experience sure helps. Certain kinds of folk music have tales to tell that can and do convey wisdom, mostly homespun. I also don't think ya have to be hanged to arrive at the conclusion lynching isn't a good thing, and singing about it after the fact ain't gonna happen--well, not unless yer Clint Eastwood in whatever that movie was, but he didn't sing that I recall. I think Henry asks a good question (and I also think he did it to rattle a few chains). The view from a piece of heavy machinery will be different than that from a horse or a jail cell, as it will be for sighted and non-sighted people. Enter the role of the observer, interpreter, presenter. If we demanded that only experienced people gain more experience, when we croak there will be scads and oodles of folks who can't do a damned thing. Hell, witness the state of Congress! All that aside, have a lovely day. |
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22 Aug 12 - 07:51 AM (#3393548) Subject: RE: Folklore: Is it Really Folk Music???(:-( 0)= From: Henry Krinkle Sing what you want to sing. But know yourself. And where you come from. (:-( ))= |
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22 Aug 12 - 07:55 AM (#3393550) Subject: RE: Folklore: Is it Really Folk Music???(:-( 0)= From: GUEST,999 With you all the way on that, Henry. |
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22 Aug 12 - 12:03 PM (#3393634) Subject: RE: Folklore: Is it Really Folk Music???(:-( 0)= From: PHJim WHITE COLLAR HOLLER (to the tune of Lining Track) Well, I rise up every morning at a quarter to eight Some woman who's my wife tells me not to be late I kiss the kids goodbye, I can't remember their names And week after week, it's always the same And it's Ho, boys, can't you code it, and program it right Nothing ever happens in the life of mine I'm hauling up the data on the Xerox line Then it's code in the data, give the keyboard a punch Then cross-correlate and break for some lunch Correlate, tabulate, process and screen Program, printout, regress to the mean Then it's home again, eat again, watch some TV Make love to my woman at ten-fifty-three I dream the same dream when I'm sleeping at night I'm soaring over hills like an eagle in flight Someday I'm gonna give up all the buttons and things I'll punch that time clock till it can't ring Burn up my necktie and set myself free Cause no one's gonna fold, bend or mutilate me. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Written by Nigel Russell Dedicated to the city of Bramalea,Ontario,Canada |
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22 Aug 12 - 12:06 PM (#3393636) Subject: RE: Folklore: Is it Really Folk Music???(:-( 0)= From: Henry Krinkle Very very good. Sing about your life experience. Not someone elses. (:-( ))= |
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22 Aug 12 - 12:10 PM (#3393638) Subject: RE: Folklore: Is it Really Folk Music???(:-( 0)= From: Spleen Cringe Plenty of songs aren't about work, thankfully. Some of us want to forget the day job when we get home... |
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22 Aug 12 - 12:20 PM (#3393643) Subject: RE: Folklore: Is it Really Folk Music???(:-( 0)= From: PHJim Yuppy Blues (3rd verse by Martin Mull) Well since my woman left me, I don't know what to think. Yes since that woman left me, I just don't know what to think. Guess I'll pop another Valium and go and call my shrink. Well I took my BMW down to the tune up stand. Yes I took my Beemer down to the tune up stand. Said, "Check the fuel injection, Pleeeeaaase Mr. Tune Up Man." Woke up this afternoon and found that both of my cars were gone. Woke up this afternoon and found that both my cars were gone. I got so God damned mad I threw my drink across the lawn. Now here's a guy who's lived the life he's singin' about. "You've got to suffer if you wanna sing the blues." D. Bromberg |
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22 Aug 12 - 02:08 PM (#3393686) Subject: RE: Folklore: Is it Really Folk Music???(:-( 0)= From: Leadfingers Henry - WAS that a serious question ? Or are y0u just another Wind Up Merchant trying to cause trouble in here ? |
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22 Aug 12 - 02:15 PM (#3393692) Subject: RE: Folklore: Is it Really Folk Music???(:-( 0)= From: GUEST,Stim The murderers who sing from their own experience have relatively short musical careers, as summed up here: "The judges and the jurymen, on me they did agree, For murdering of this pretty fair maid; so hangèd I shall be." |
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22 Aug 12 - 02:31 PM (#3393699) Subject: RE: Folklore: Is it Really Folk Music???(:-( 0)= From: Henry Krinkle I didn't call it Monkey Junk. Son House did. (:-( 0)= |
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22 Aug 12 - 02:38 PM (#3393704) Subject: RE: Folklore: Is it Really Folk Music???(:-( 0)= From: Elmore I have vowed never to respond to a henry kringle response again. This is a non-response |
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22 Aug 12 - 02:56 PM (#3393708) Subject: RE: Folklore: Is it Really Folk Music???(:-( 0)= From: Henry Krinkle (:-( ))= |
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22 Aug 12 - 03:07 PM (#3393715) Subject: RE: Folklore: Is it Really Folk Music???(:-( 0)= From: Dave Hanson (:-())= Dave H |
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22 Aug 12 - 03:19 PM (#3393723) Subject: RE: Folklore: Is it Really Folk Music???(:-( 0)= From: Henry Krinkle (:-( 0)= |
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22 Aug 12 - 03:22 PM (#3393727) Subject: RE: Folklore: Is it Really Folk Music???(:-( 0)= From: Henry Krinkle (:-( D)= |
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22 Aug 12 - 08:12 PM (#3393827) Subject: RE: Folklore: Is it Really Folk Music???(:-( 0)= From: dick greenhaus Working hard in the hot sun gives you a red neck, but not necessarily authenticity. |
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22 Aug 12 - 08:43 PM (#3393835) Subject: RE: Folklore: Is it Really Folk Music???(:-( 0)= From: Don Firth < screed on > One can draw a distinction between a "folk singer" and a "singer of folk songs." And one may quibble 'til hell freezes over about who is which (as is the wont of many who inhabit these threads here on Mudcat), but bear with me for the moment until you see where I'm going with this. A "folk singer" would be a member of "the folk" (whatever that is). But to clarify that, let's go back to the root of the term "folk song." It was first used by the eighteenth century German philosopher Johann Gottfried von Herder. Among other things, Von Herder was into matters of nationalism and national identity, and he recommended to composers of classical music that if they wished to imbue their music with a national character, they study the indigenous music of the country, and incorporate its elements and themes in their own compositions. Such as Sibelius did with works like "Finlandia," or Rimsky-Korsakov did when he tried to capture the flavor of Spain with his "Capriccio Español," or Ralph Vaughn Williams, an English composer, does with "Fantasia on Greensleeves." "Volkslieder" (folk songs) was the term von Herder used. And this, as far as scholars have been able to determine, was the first use of the term "folk song" as a specific category of music, i.e., the music and songs of, again according to von Herder, the "rural, peasant class." A "folk singer" is a member of this "rural peasant" class who sings folk songs of his or her own region. A "singer of folk songs" would be a person of any class or locality who sings folk songs of any region or nationality. There are other terms that may be even more appropriate in this latter case. Richard Dyer-Bennet, born in England, the son of a member of the English peerage, and raised in the United States, and a classically trained singer and guitarist, included many folk songs in his repertoire. But he did not refer to himself as a "folk singer" or even use terms like "singer of folk songs." He also sang songs of his own or other's composition which are distinctly not folk songs, but most of the songs in his large repertoire were folk songs. He prefered the term "minstrel." A minstrel was a singer who often travelled from place to place, singing—and accompanying himself on a small, portable instrument—in the courts of the nobility, or in the town square (we call this "busking" these days), picking up songs as he went. He was a professional musician, because in order to keep doing it, he had to make a living at it. Dyer-Bennet—and many other "singers of folk songs" who are not members of the rural, peasant class—make their livings basically the same way. One can still sing on the streets (busk), but there are also clubs, coffee houses, concert halls, television, folk festivals—and house concerts, which is getting close to performing in the halls of aristocrats who hired minstrels (or even such august musicians as Mozart or Beethoven) to perform in their salons for the entertainment of their guests and friends. One need not be prince or aristocrat these days; but one does need a house with a large enough room. Minstrel. Or the French equivalent, troubadour. Or the Scandinavian skop or skald. Or the Celtic bard. I am not a "folk singer" because I am not a member of the "rural peasant class." I was born in Los Angeles and, with the exception of a few side-trips such as Denver, the San Francisco Bay area, Vancouver, B. C., and Kingston, Ontario, I have spent most of my life in Seattle—hence, not "rural." Both of my parents were health care professionals and would be considered "professional class." Most of the jobs I have held, other than singing, although singing, too—engineering aide, technical writer and editor, radio announcer and newscaster—would also be considered "professional." Including performing and teaching music. But this does not preclude my right to sing folk songs and ballads. Or anything else, for that matter. I do not have to have been on the deck of an English man o'war in the midst of a pitched battle with Barbary pirates to sing "High Barbaree," or have spent time in a logging camp to sing "Blue Mountain Lake," or be hanged to sing "McPherson's Fareweel." Or spent time in prison to sing "The Midnight Special." And I don't have to be a woman to be able to sing "Come All You Fair and Tender Ladies" or "He Came from his Palace Grand." As long as I understand the song myself, and can put that understanding and emotions across to an audience. I do not try to pass myself off as a member of "the folk." Frankly, I take a dim view of those city born-and-raised singers who learned all their songs from records and song books—where, incidentally, I learned the vast majority of the songs I sing—who try to pass themselves off as "rural peasant class" by dressing in their "scuzzies" before going on stage, or who affect a dialect or accent not their own. I have known singers who did that, but I've never done it myself. Save in some of the songs themselves, which may require dialect or accent if the song is to make sense. Singing "The Bonny Earl of Moray" without affecting a Scottish accent would be pretty damned lame! Out of respect for my audiences, I dress well before I appear on stage. Not a tux, like Dyer-Bennet, but frequently in grey slacks, a light cotton turtle-neck sweater, and a navy-blue blazer (no brass buttons so as not to scratch the back of my guitar). Not quite formal, but not informal either. However, I see nothing wrong in, say, Mike Seeger, Tom Paley, and John Cohen dressing in plaid shirts and bib overalls and doing a lot of "hayseed" clowning around on stage as "The New Lost City Ramblers." This is their "act," and they're not trying to fool anyone into thinking that they're genuinely "country boys" rather than guys from the big city. Whether a song is a folk song or not is determined by the song. Nor by the person who sings it. And—I reserve the right to sing any song I damned well please. And if someone doesn't like it, he doesn't have to listen to me. < screed off > Don Firth P. S. Trying to put someone down for singing folk songs when he or she is not a member of the rural peasant class and not having been in prison and not laboring their life away in a hot, sunbaked field, etc. is a bit like bitching at Sir Lawrence Olivier for playing Hamlet when Olivier is neither a prince nor a Dane! Sorta stoopud! |
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22 Aug 12 - 08:51 PM (#3393838) Subject: RE: Folklore: Is it Really Folk Music???(:-( 0)= From: Henry Krinkle Monkey Junk Son House's words Not mine (:-( ))= |
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22 Aug 12 - 09:08 PM (#3393840) Subject: RE: Folklore: Is it Really Folk Music???(:-( 0)= From: Henry Krinkle It's an act. Not your story. Sing your story. (:-( ))= |
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22 Aug 12 - 09:11 PM (#3393841) Subject: RE: Folklore: Is it Really Folk Music???(:-( 0)= From: Don Firth Monkey Junk, eh? I presume you're referring to the rock band. Ever hear of The Tragically Hip? Since their formation in 1983 they have released 12 studio albums, two live albums, and 46 singles. Nine of their albums have reached No. 1 in Canada. They have received numerous Canadian Music awards, including 14 Juno Awards.My nephew, Rob Baker, is lead guitarist in that group. Don Firth |
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22 Aug 12 - 09:26 PM (#3393850) Subject: RE: Folklore: Is it Really Folk Music???(:-( 0)= From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker I'm not entirely in disagreement with Henry Krinkle on this one... so it's fortunate I'm not a singer as I'd have to restrict myself to only singing songs authentic to my current social status and lifestyle of mainly eating, sleeping, shitting, shagging and wasting a few hours each day watching TV and effing about on the internet... Are there any folk songs about sitting on the sofa watching TV with a bottle of cider and a bag of tortilla chips, and giving the wife an affectionate grope up the front of her jumper during the ad breaks..??? |
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22 Aug 12 - 09:35 PM (#3393854) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle Son House defined the blues in his performances. It's either the blues, or it's just Monkey Junk. His words. (:-( P)= |
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22 Aug 12 - 09:41 PM (#3393855) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle Cute and funny. But not the real deal. (:-( ))= |
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22 Aug 12 - 09:51 PM (#3393858) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Don Firth I don't do blues. Not because I don't like it, but because I'm not good at it. One should know one's limitations. And heed that knowledge. Don Firth |
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22 Aug 12 - 11:05 PM (#3393872) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: John P Is it really folk music? Yes. Just like classical music is really classical music and country music is really country music and rap is really rap. I don't give a rat's ass what someone does for a living. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not they are real. It has nothing whatever to do with whether or not the songs they sing are folk music. I work in an office now. Like most people, I've had lots of jobs, including construction, factory work, landscaping, and music. Do I get to be a "real" folkie? Do I? Huh? Huh? Are these folk songs? The Jolly Wagoner John Barleycorn The Devil and the Farmer's Wife The Cruel Mother Who is authorized to sing them as a real folkie? What do you call these songs if they are sung by an fake folkie? Do they suddenly become faux folk? How many highwaymen are riding around on horses using a flintlock and rapier to steal from passers-by? Does any song that no one, today, can experience firsthand need to be sent to the dustbin? The first music I ever played was the blues. I taught myself. I'm a white guy from the American Midwest. I play the blues. By definition, that means I'm a bluesman. If Henry is saying that I don't play the blues (or folk), he can go fuck himself along with the elitist, exclusionary horse he rode in on. If Henry is just posting bullshit in order to start an argument, he can go fuck himself twice. |
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22 Aug 12 - 11:21 PM (#3393879) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: John P It's either the blues, or it's just Monkey Junk. His words. Actually, your words. You're the one who posted them. I don't care at all what Son House thinks the blues are or aren't. He's not in this discussion. You are. Trying to push your offensive comments off onto someone famous is cowardly. If you're going to talk, own up to your words. Just out of curiosity, what is monkey junk and how does it relate to the playing of music? And does posting an inane comment multiple times make you think it's more true, or that repetition suddenly makes it sagacious? |
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23 Aug 12 - 12:26 AM (#3393896) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: GUEST,Stim You have a real gift for annoying people, Henry. Not just the people who like to get annoyed, either. People who usually manage to keep their perspective. |
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23 Aug 12 - 12:32 AM (#3393898) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Don Firth I suspect that that is his main aim. Don Firth |
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23 Aug 12 - 01:24 AM (#3393901) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Larry The Radio Guy But at the same time....while I don't prescribe to the belief that you have to have 'been there' in order to sing about something......I do get tired of people who are going through the motions singing songs that they have no understand of, no real affinity for, and no ability to interpret in any meaningful way. I choose songs to sing because somehow they mean something to me. No, I don't have to explain to people why (nor does anybody else). So there's a part of me that kind of resonates with Henry's rant. |
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23 Aug 12 - 02:44 AM (#3393905) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Don Firth I can agree with you on that, Larry. During the early 1960s, there were a number of coffee houses here in Seattle that offered folk music as entertainment, and with the advent of the various popular "folk" groups such as the Kingston Trio, Peter Paul and Mary, the New Christy Minstrels, and of course solo singers such as Bob Gibson and Joan Baez, there were kids crawling out of the woodwork, teaching themselves enough guitar chords to get by, and learning songs off records. Some of them landed jobs in the coffee houses, and I'm afraid I have to say that the vast majority of them were pretty gawdawful. Most of them vanished from sight when the Beatles came along, the "British Invasion" started, and folk music was no longer pop music's "flavor of the month." But a few stuck around, learned what folk music was about, and got pretty good. The big problem was that all too many of them didn't have a clue as to what they were singing about. They'd learned it from a record, and if they knew anything about the song at all, it was what they got off the liner notes—if any. I had taken some voice lessons before I became interested in folk music. And when I decided I wanted to make a career of being a modern-day minstrel, I took more singing lessons—not to sound like an opera singer, but to be able to use my voice without doing the kind of damage to it that I knew could happen if you abuse your voice. One of my teachers asked me to bring my guitar to the lessons, and after going through the routine of vocal exercises and voice technique, he would have me sing whatever song I was learning at the time. He would often stop me and ask, "What does that line mean?" Now, he knew what it meant, but he just wanted to make sure that I knew what it meant and wasn't just singing it by rote. This got me into really researching the background of any song I sang, and making certain that I understood what it was all about. And could put that across to my audiences. And I think I think I learned how to do that pretty well. Not that I'm so flamin' brilliant, I just had some good teachers along the line. This is one of the reasons that I recommend that those interested in singing folk songs seriously don't shy away from taking a few lessons. It won't make them sound like an opera singer (I know a lot of aspiring opera singers who wish it was that easy, but it bloody-well isn't). They can teach you how to keep your singing voice healthy, AND you can never tell what other good things you might learn from a good teacher—such as, "What does that line mean?" Don Firth |
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23 Aug 12 - 03:00 AM (#3393908) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Richard Bridge Krinkle demonstrates again that he is an ignoramus - ignorant of the basic difference between a folksinger and a folksong singer. |
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23 Aug 12 - 03:16 AM (#3393912) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle Namecalling and insults. Refuge of the weakminded ignoramus. I quoted Son House. I didn't put words in his mouth. Howlin' Wolf didn't think much of white city kid blues players either. (:-( P)= |
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23 Aug 12 - 04:16 AM (#3393922) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle A folk song singer is kind of like a parrot, right? And Don, early, very early in my thread I stated that you should know who you are and where you came from. If you want to be authentic. Or just keep putting on a cute and funny act. (:-( ))= |
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23 Aug 12 - 04:27 AM (#3393924) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: GUEST I realise this is a windup but, for what it's worth, a singer is like a storyteller; their job is to tell the story not live it - that's what life is for . |
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23 Aug 12 - 05:22 AM (#3393934) Subject: Lyr Add: OLD GREY SQUIRREL (Alfred Noyes) From: GUEST, Sminky OLD GREY SQUIRREL? (Alfred Noyes) A great while ago there was a schoolboy who lived in a cottage by the sea, And the very first thing he could remember was the rigging of the schooners by the quay. He could watch 'em from his bedroom window with the big cranes a-hauling out the freight, And he used to dream of shipping as a sea-cook and a-sailing for the Golden Gate. He used to buy the yellow penny dreadfuls, he'd read 'em where he fished for conger eels, As he listened to the slapping of the water the green and oily water round the keels, There were trawlers with their shark-mouthed flatfish and the nets a-hanging out to dry, And the skate the skipper kept because he liked 'em and the landsmen never knew which ones to fry. There were brigantines with timber out of Norway just oozing with the syrups of the pine, There were rusty-dusty freighters out of Sunderland and clippers of the Blue Cross Line. To tumble down the hatch into a cabin was better than the best of broken rules, For the smell of 'em was like a Christmas dinner and the feel of 'em was like a box of tools, And before he went to sleep in the evenings the last thing that he would ever see, Was the sailormen a-dancing in the moonlight by the capstan that stood beside the quay. Now he's sitting on a high-stool in London, the Golden Gate is far away, For they caught him like a squirrel and they caged him, now he's totting up accounts and turning grey, And he'll never get to San Francisco and the last thing that he will ever see, Is the sailormen a-dancing in the moonlight by the capstan that stands beside the quay. To the tune of the old concertina by the capstan that stands beside the quay. Alfred Noyes, The Old Grey Squirrel Set to music by Bob Zentz |
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23 Aug 12 - 05:34 AM (#3393938) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle I don't know how to do links here, but go to youtube. Search Son House Monkey Junk ...Watch the Son House interview. Not the white wannabe bluesmen (boys?) (:-( ))= |
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23 Aug 12 - 05:41 AM (#3393939) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: GUEST,Stan Try this as a definition. Folk music is an attempt to recreate the popular music of previous generations of your own or other cultures. If this is the case then singing about working on a chain line in a country you never visited is folk music and singing about working in your own office is a parody of folk music. If someone has already made this point I apologise. This thread has got a lot longer since I last read it. |
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23 Aug 12 - 05:58 AM (#3393941) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle And make sure you read the accompanying info. (:-( ))= |
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23 Aug 12 - 06:04 AM (#3393943) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle Like I said A parrot. (:-( D)= |
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23 Aug 12 - 06:24 AM (#3393947) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: GUEST A parrot repeats but cannot understand. Do you propose that a folk singer cannot understand? |
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23 Aug 12 - 06:41 AM (#3393950) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle And he referred to the efforts of young white bluesmen(?)many times in interviews as monkey junk. I'm not critcizing every folk song singer. Or bluesman(?). But I seem to have made some folks angry and defensive. Does the shoe fit? Or may I acquit? (:-( P)= |
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23 Aug 12 - 06:48 AM (#3393952) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: GUEST,Blandiver This a hoot. First Folk prescribes its own sources then continues to prescribe its own limits. The bottom line has to be that Folk is that which aspires to represent that which it considers Traditional in terms of the limits of its own inner aesthetical / ideolological sense of musical righteousness. Those old songs, ballads, shanties & rants were never FOLK in the first instance, but only called FOLK by folkies - a particular academic / social / cultural hobbysist elite operating at several demographic / historical & cultural removes from The Tradition they claim to revere (i.e. none of the present shanty crew have ever been hardened ship-board hardened tars who sang this stuff before mast in the 19th century). Once we've established and accepted that then - yes, indeed, It Is Really Folk Music. |
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23 Aug 12 - 07:02 AM (#3393954) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle I like that. I like that alot. (:-( D)= |
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23 Aug 12 - 07:06 AM (#3393956) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Jim Carroll "Those old songs, ballads, shanties & rants were never FOLK in the first instance, but only called FOLK by folkies " Nonsense - we have no idea what the 'folk' called what we (or some of us) refer to as folksong because, with a few honourable exceptions, nobody really bothered to ask them. Walter Pardon, the last of the big repertoire traditional English singers certainly called his songs 'folk' and went into long descriptions as to how they differed from 'music hall' or 'Victorian parlour songs' or 'early popular songs'. Some singers called them 'traditional' or 'come-all-ye' - quite common in Ireland and among Irish communities all over the world. Others called them 'local' or Norfolk' or 'Traveller', or simply 'old'. Whatever they called them, most source singers, when questioned, differentiated between their 'folk' songs and the rest of their repertoire - not a question of value judgement (as it often is among folkies), just a matter of being able to tell the difference between a anana and an apple, even though they are both 'fruit' and somebody can enjoy both. I'm sure Mozart or Haydn or Beethoven never called their music 'classical' but most people understand the word when it is mentioned - what a pity so many people don't have a word for folk song - as they say in Ireland, "I'm sorry for your trouble". OH dear!! Jim Carroll |
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23 Aug 12 - 07:08 AM (#3393958) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Jim Carroll That should of course read 'banana' Jim Carroll |
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23 Aug 12 - 07:34 AM (#3393963) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: GUEST,Blandiver Nonsense - we have no idea what the 'folk' called what we (or some of us) refer to as folksong because, with a few honourable exceptions, nobody really bothered to ask them. The whole concept of FOLK is a construct of a Victorian Paternalism that really believed God did make them high & lowly and order their estate. Whatever they called them, most source singers, when questioned, differentiated between their 'folk' songs and the rest of their repertoire Traditional Singers were canny enough to compliant to the wishes of their betters, but that's no surprise. It's a Bill & Ted situation. Such deference has been endemic since Fuedal times. I'm sure Mozart or Haydn or Beethoven never called their music 'classical' but most people understand the word when it is mentioned Not sure about that, but most musicians call their music something as part of their comminity & tradition. Folkies, for instance call their music Folk, which is exactly what it is, no problems there. I only get flustered when they call other people's music Folk too. A 60-something Social Worker getting up to sing Brigg Fair in her local folk club is very much Folk; Joseph Taylor singing the same song for Percy Grainger's wax cylinder in 1905 is something Very Different Indeed. It pays, I think, to be clear about not so much what Folk is, but what it isn't. |
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23 Aug 12 - 08:08 AM (#3393968) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle A parrot repeats but cannot comprehend. A city dweller singing about picking cotton comprehends? I don't think so. Singing it with a grin on his face? Somebody ought to slap the guitar out of his hands. (:-( ))= |
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23 Aug 12 - 08:19 AM (#3393972) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: theleveller But, in the end, does anyone really give a shit? |
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23 Aug 12 - 08:31 AM (#3393975) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle Yes. They do. Some have cared enough to curse, namecall and insult. While some have agreed with me. If you didn't care, you wouldn't post. (:-( ))= |
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23 Aug 12 - 08:49 AM (#3393980) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: GUEST Back in't day when folk were folk along came Henry Krinkle his one remaining bloodshot eye still carried quite a twinkle he cried 'eh-up lad, tha knows tha's not a sailor or a peasant, so why yer singing that daft song, it really isn't pleasant' but he were only waiting for a floor spot in't owd club, and he only knew one song to sing, and ee wasn't very good. He'd bin banned from most clubs 'ere about and for this were rather sore but he sang as how he'd never play the Wild Rover, nay, no more. |
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23 Aug 12 - 08:51 AM (#3393981) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Jim Carroll "The whole concept of FOLK is a construct of a Victorian Paternalism" No such thing - the word 'Folk' was first applied to culture by William Thoms in 1846 in an attempt to identify and categorise lore, custom, storytelling, painting, etc by the rural labouring classes. Thoms and his contemporaries in no way attempted to examine the communities practicing these, but dealt with the subjects as artefacts, their identifying feature being that they were 'folk'. The term was later applied to music, song and dance. The fact remains, the people who performed the songs, identified them as belonging to their communities, even though the might have taken pleasure and even performed songs and music from outside. "Not sure about that" Be sure - or show us a reference of show that Haydn or his contemporaries referred to his music as 'classical'. The fact that the term was applied later makes not the slightest difference, and it says nothing, paternal or otherwise, about the people who created 'classical' music. Methinks we've been here before when you were wearing a different mask - I identify you as Lobby Ludd and claim my five pounds. Jim Carroll |
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23 Aug 12 - 09:14 AM (#3393985) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle Mmmmmmmmm..... Very good. Very, very good. (:-(D)= |
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23 Aug 12 - 09:18 AM (#3393986) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: GUEST,Blandiver But, in the end, does anyone really give a shit? On the whole I don't suppose the rank & file Folkies are too bothered with what amounts to a wholesale misappropriation of Working Class Culture for the pleasure & delectation of the more leisured classes in the name of 'revival' or 'preservation'. Personally, I think the old songs should have been allowed to die a dignified death, without suffering the indignities of taxidemy and reactionary ressurectionism - indeed, I've no doubt many of them did. Even though I have been engaged & beguiled by such T&RR since I was 11, I think it pays to care enough to be bothered about such things, not only to give respect where respect is undoubtedly due, but to maybe enable a wider appreciation of the common heritage that is The Popular & Vernacular Traditional Songs and Ballads of the English Speaking World by those (Muggles?) for whom the very idea of Folk is, quite understandably, both risable & repellent in the extreme. The bottom line is the old songs existed in their natural habitat without Folk; but Folk cannot exist without those songs. A similar relationship exists between sex and pornography. I dream of cultural amnesty. How nice it would be to have a National Educational & Cultural Curriculum where Traditional Song & Ballad existed on a par with Chaucer and Shakespeare and had nothing to with 'the sort of music 'Catters like' or else the proprietary attitude many folkies seem to have to material which, in truth, they have only the most superficial relationship with & interest in. Such a relationship is counter-productive in the extreme, dimishing the value of of National Treasures by associating them with the MOR dross that mostly determines Folk Experience today. Even hardened Traddies operate at several removes from the primal sod, though (most) I meet are only too aware of this fact & deeply respectful as a consequence. For sure, the Folk Waters are muddied, and we're all guilty to a greater or lesser extent, but clarification remains a noble ideal - one that is, I think, worth striving for. I love picking up pre-Folk books of British Ballads and seeing Sir Patrick Spens alongside Sir Richard Greenville's Last Fight. |
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23 Aug 12 - 09:32 AM (#3393995) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: GUEST,Blandiver Methinks we've been here before when you were wearing a different mask - I identify you as Lobby Ludd and claim my five pounds. £5? You'll be lucky (Jim). No mask. I've petitioned Joe Offer for a name change on several grounds but this he continues to deny me. As Flann O'Brien pointed out in the common law a man may go by any name he so chooses. But of course, his heart ne'er changes! Blandiver / Suibhne / Sedayne / Sean etc. It really is of little consequence. As for the other business, I doubt either Dufay or Machaut was aware of their significance to the broader Tradition of Classical Music of which they were part, much less how their work would be revered in the centuries to come, but as far as the nature of their Tradition goes, they would have been aware of their mastery of it in terms of Ars Nova even if they never themselves used the term. Folk, alas, is a very different sort of word - as you say it prescribes rather than describes and is used by those who had feck all with the creation of the music in the first place. It's an ideal, hatched, as you say, some 9 years after Victoria came to the throne so Victorian in every sense - and utterly, and shamefully bogus besides. |
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23 Aug 12 - 09:45 AM (#3394002) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle Patronizing the peasants. Appropriating their songs. For your amusement. Shameful. (:-(P)= |
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23 Aug 12 - 10:25 AM (#3394017) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle Ya' can't just talk the talk. Ya' gotta walk the walk. No brag. Just fact. (:-( ))= |
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23 Aug 12 - 10:45 AM (#3394022) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Jim Carroll "Folk, alas, is a very different sort of word" simple folk - fisher folk - farming folk..... you name it, it's used by all sorts of people to describe their own communities. You and your 'baby-out-with-the-bathwater' mob are the ones who have applied connotations to the term in order to tear down what others have put up. You are knocking down long out-of-date straw men of your own construction. Nobody is defending the mistakes of the pioneers who got a great deal wrong - you are attempting to deny the existence of a distinctive and identifiable body of song which has been acknowledged by every community we have ever worked in and - as usual - you are offering nothing to replace it. The people you have made your persitant target have never claimed to have had "feck all with the creation of the music in the first place" - that is yet another target of your own making. Whatever name you decide on - I'd stick with the 'bland' bit - it suits perfectly what you have to offer. Jim Carroll |
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23 Aug 12 - 10:48 AM (#3394023) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: GUEST,funky junky monkey I guess by Mr Krinkle's definition, Bob Dylan should never have sung those songs, Johnny Cash should never have written Folsom Prison Blues (he was never in Prison), we would all have to visit a prison or homeless shelter to hear "true" folk songs(I sure hope they can write, play and sing), and I'll have to limit my song subjects to time spent wasted reading posts by a troll. I've been raised to believe that you pay tribute to the past by remembering them, singing the old songs and respecting what they went through and lived for. After all, don't we need musicians (who can write songs...) to put a tune to these stories in the first place? I wouldn't expect a General to write a moving song about war, but according to Mr. Krinkle, a soldier would be the only one qualified to so. My Grandmother was an old hillbilly from southern Kentucky and raised 13 kids during the depression. She called all of the songs she sang folk songs because "they were stories of regular folk and were usually sung by regular folk - everyone knew them". I know there are many definitions of folk music, but I like this one about as good as any I've heard. I'm as tired as anyone of hearing white bread yuppies sing "blues" in their Hawaiian shirts and birkenstock sandles, but you have to take the bad with the good I suppose. If you dont like them, don't listen to them. You're right, I'd much rather hear a song about someone standing on a Georgia road watching someone else put down new asphalt... |
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23 Aug 12 - 10:54 AM (#3394024) Subject: Lyr Add: EDDYSTONE LIGHT From: TheSnail My father was the keeper of the Eddystone Light And he slept with a mermaid one fine night. From this union there came three, A porpoise and a porgy and the other was me. Chorus: Yo, ho, ho, the wind blows free: oh, for a life on the rolling sea. One night while I was a-trimmin' of the glim And singin' a verse from the evening hymn, A voice from the starboard shouted, "Ahoy!" And there was my mother sittin' on a buoy. "Oh, what has become of my children three?" My mother then she asked of me "One's in the circus as a talking fish And the other was served in a chafing dish." Then the phosphorus flashed in her seaweed hair; I looked again, and my mother wasn't there. A voice came echoing out of the night: "To Hell with the keeper of the Eddystone Light!" Clearly, I am the only person qualified to sing this song. |
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23 Aug 12 - 11:00 AM (#3394026) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle A great song can come from anywhere. But the best come from real life. Your life. (:-( ))= |
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23 Aug 12 - 11:02 AM (#3394028) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: GUEST,Blandiver you are attempting to deny the existence of a distinctive and identifiable body of song which has been acknowledged by every community we have ever worked in No I'm not - I'm attempting to give it greater credit than has ever been accorded in the name of Folk to both the importance of the songs and the master craftswo/manship that made them. What I do musically has little or nothing to do with that (something we'll agree on at least). And I'm sure when people say farming folk, it has nothing do with Folk as we know and love it on Mudcat. Certainly the farmer folk of my aquaintance would be deeply insulted by the association. |
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23 Aug 12 - 11:13 AM (#3394031) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Jim Carroll "....would be deeply insulted by the association." Oh come oooooon. Lancashire folk - Yorkshire folk, mining folk, cotton folk, Bolton folk, Clare folk..... now you really are talking utter bollocks It's one of the most common self-descriptions we ever came across - any demeaning connotations are those put on it by outsiders. Credit for the music created by the 'folk' starts and finishes with a recognition of its uniqueness and not constant attemts to lump it in with Gene Pitney, Elvis, Boyzone.... and all the other establishment entertainers you non-definers would lump it with. Jim Carroll |
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23 Aug 12 - 11:13 AM (#3394032) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle Did Lee Atwater ever put out a CD or LP? Do you know? I've been pissed at Steve Cropper ever since. (:-(/)= |
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23 Aug 12 - 11:20 AM (#3394033) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: GUEST,Blandiver Yeah, Jim - but most folks aren't Folkies, and most of the Music of the Folks sure ain't Folk Music. Or don't the folks count any more? |
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23 Aug 12 - 11:27 AM (#3394037) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: John on the Sunset Coast Is this one of those "folkier than thou" threads? I think Shel Silverstein pretty much summed it up fifty years ago in "Folk Singer's Blues". |
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23 Aug 12 - 11:33 AM (#3394039) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T As I recall it, the peasants (how our Henry always chooses the most emotive and least pleasant of the available descriptors) were quite willing and often pleased to pass on their songs, as well they should be. So what does Henry propose as the best way to preserve them? Restrict the singing of them to those who are currently toiling and labouring in those areas of employment which first inspired the songs. So that's all the following fucked: Songs about: Lords and Ladies Jesters Sailors before the mast Cutpurses Highwaymen Imprisoned debtors Ploughboys Grooms Ostlers Blacksmiths Boatwrights Wheelrights Wagonmakers Candlemakers etc. etc. etc. Clever Henry. He has singlehandedly placed more restriction on the genre in a few ill considered, idiotic, sentences than licensing laws have managed in more than a decade. What the hell is he doing on this forum, and more importantly, why are any of us bothering with his specious crap? Don T. |
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23 Aug 12 - 11:39 AM (#3394044) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle *huggles*! (:-(P)= |
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23 Aug 12 - 11:45 AM (#3394046) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: theleveller Ah well, as we say in Yorkshire "there's nowt so queer as folk". That, no doubt, will be subject to various interesting interpretations. |
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23 Aug 12 - 11:57 AM (#3394053) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: theleveller "and all the other establishment entertainers you non-definers would lump it with." Oh Jim, I LOVE the term "non-definer". It has definite overtones of Levellers, Ranters, Diggers, Muggletonians and the whole world turned upside down. |
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23 Aug 12 - 12:05 PM (#3394059) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle I think this is an argument that's been going on ever since the Folkie thing started. Isn't it? (:-( 0)= |
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23 Aug 12 - 12:27 PM (#3394068) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: GUEST,Blandiver With measured calm an otherwise irate Monica reached her car keys from the hook and said,"You know what your trouble is, don't you, Lawrence? You're a non-definer!" Then she was gone, slamming the door behind her. The second to last thing he ever heard of her was the tyres of her Range Rover crunching over the pebbles outside of the beach hut; the last thing was the CD of The Copper Family playing loud on her car stereo, fading into the silences of the gleaming dawn as she drove away. |
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23 Aug 12 - 12:48 PM (#3394079) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: GUEST,Stan I personally have no problem at all if spotty Rodney from Burnage, who'd father is a doctor and whose mother has a degree in astro physics but now stays home to run the house, picks up a guitar and starts to sing 'the blues man'. He might turn out to be good, he might turn out to be rubbish. No one stays the same for ever. Say one person in every hundred who picks up the guitar turns out to be OK at it and one person in every hundred of those who get to be OK at it turn out to be very very good at it, somewhere along the line there will be a spotty little wannabe who turns out eventually to be even better than Sun House. (At least for some people) Is it just possible that Sun House knew this and that's why he was so grumpy? |
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23 Aug 12 - 12:53 PM (#3394084) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle Monkey Junk (:-( P)= |
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23 Aug 12 - 01:02 PM (#3394093) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Jim Carroll "Or don't the folks count any more?" Of course they count - unfortunately a major medium of self-expression has disappeared and they have become recipents of a culture rather than creators of it, their role being usurped by the Gene Pitneys of the modern world. Dismissing what they have created in the past by failing to recognise what it was or what function it served suggests that they have always been recipients. By all means feel free to challenge conclusions that others have arrive at and replace them with your own, but you have always preferred pulling down what others have constructed rather than offering alternatives. The fact remains that 'the folk' recognised their songs as important to their lives - go and listen to Walter Pardon, Phoebe Smith, Harry Cox, Duncan Williamson, Sheila Stewart, Texas Gladden, Joe Heaney, Jane Turriff.... and the (all too few) others who have been asked to but their views of their culture on tape - half an hour of listening should do the trick "Is this one of those "folkier than thou" threads?" Only if you take it as a discussion of values and personal folkie preferences, which it is not. Jim Carroll |
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23 Aug 12 - 01:09 PM (#3394096) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: GUEST,Blandiver The fact remains that 'the folk' recognised their songs as important to their lives - go and listen to Walter Pardon, Phoebe Smith, Harry Cox, Duncan Williamson, Sheila Stewart, Texas Gladden, Joe Heaney, Jane Turriff.... and the (all too few) others who have been asked to but their views of their culture on tape - half an hour of listening should do the trick On this we agree, Jim, which is, I think, all that really matters. I tell you, if it was all so clear-cut thereafter I doubt I'd be half as interested. Jane Turriff had a fondness for Jimmie Rodgers though... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sn2UTXDIDCA |
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23 Aug 12 - 01:27 PM (#3394101) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Jim Carroll "Jane Turriff had a fondness for Jimmie Rodgers though..." And have a great fondness for Frank Sinatra and Maria Callas, but that doesn't make either of them 'folk'. The sooner we get over the crass idea that discussing personal preferences has anything to do with how you recognise your music and define it, the sooner we'll start talking to each other. Jim Carroll |
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23 Aug 12 - 01:48 PM (#3394113) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: GUEST,Blandiver This isn't crass, Jim - personal preference is everything; it's about liberating individual musical experience from the fanciful & prescriptive generalisations of the revival and seeing things in their proper vernacular context. What is crass is not recognise how recorded Popular Music impacted on individuals as part wider growth and liberation that moved it on into the 20th Century when Tradition came simply to mean 'old fashioned'. For it is then that Folk began to flourish. I grew up in the Land of the Drone; I knew Traditional Northumbrian Pipers and Singer and Travellers and Storytellers who were digging all of other stuff as part of a much broader picture. To suggest anything else would be patronising, reactionary and absurd - three of Folk's defining features so why be surprised? |
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23 Aug 12 - 01:56 PM (#3394117) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Don Firth As I said above, I don't have to have experienced being hanged to sing "McPherson's Fareweel." Or "Sam Hall," for that matter. If that were the case, I don't think you'd hear either of these songs very often....... I believe the problem with Mr. Krinkle is that he feels the only way he can stroke his own ego is to try to run everybody else down. Don Firth |
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23 Aug 12 - 02:18 PM (#3394122) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Larry The Radio Guy Hey, isn't part of the 'job' in mudcat chats to get discussion happening? Way to go Mr. Krinkle! |
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23 Aug 12 - 02:18 PM (#3394123) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: theleveller "I don't have to have experienced being hanged to sing "McPherson's Fareweel."" Gallowa in folk clubs - or at least stocks and a whipping post - now you're talking. Come on, who hasn't, at some time, wished for those> |
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23 Aug 12 - 02:41 PM (#3394131) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: TheSnail I know I'll regret this but... Jim Carroll go and listen to Walter Pardon, Phoebe Smith, Harry Cox, Duncan Williamson, Sheila Stewart, Texas Gladden, Joe Heaney, Jane Turriff As a matter of interest, were any of these people invited to contribute to the Seventh Conference of the International Folk Music Council Held at Sao Paulo, Brazil in 1954? (OK, Sheila Stewart might have been a bit young but what about her parents Belle and Alec of her uncle Donald?) P.S. My father wasn't really the keeper of the Eddystone Light; he was a farm labourer. My mother wasn't really a mermaid; she was a stockbroker's daughter. |
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23 Aug 12 - 02:59 PM (#3394135) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: GUEST,Blandiver In my young day it was always MacPherson's Rant - Farewell just doesn't do it justice somehow. And I think it's missing the point rather to think you have to have been (well) hung to sing it. Did McPherson ever sing it himself? Did he ever break his fiddle? Well - of course he did, I know this because I've seen it in the Clan MacPherson Museum, and Davie Stewart has some interesting things to say about it on the Lomax Archive. No version was ever as good as Davie's for sure & I doubt he much experience of the gallows himself. http://research.culturalequity.org/rc-b2/get-audio-detailed-recording.do?recordingId=12484 The interview doesn't appear to be there. Hmmm... |
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23 Aug 12 - 03:19 PM (#3394141) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Jim Carroll "As a matter of interest, were any of these people invited to contribute to the Seventh Conference of the International Folk Music Council Held at Sao Paulo, Brazil in 1954?" No - and your point? Jim Carroll |
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23 Aug 12 - 03:26 PM (#3394144) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: GUEST,Ghost of Shel Silverstein Folk Singer's Blues Well, I'd like to sing a song about the chain gang (Whap!) And swingin' twelve pound hammers all the day, (Whap!) And how a I'd like to kill my captain (Whap!) And how a black man works his life away, but... What do you do if you're young and white and Jewish? And you've never swung a hammer against a spike? And you've never called a water boy Early in the morning And your only chain is the chain that's on your bike? Yes, Your only chain is the chain on your bike. Now I'd like to go a-walkin up the highway Feelin' cold and wet and hungry all night long, Doin' some hard ramblin', hard gamblin', hard smamblin', hard blamblin' But always takin' time to write a song. But... What do you do if you're young and white and Jewish? And you never heard an old freight whistle blow? And you've never slept the night In a cold and empty box car And you take a subway everywhere you go? Oh, oh... You take the subway everywhere you go. Now I'd like to sing a song about the coal mine A-chippin' away in tunnel 22 And when I hear that timber crack, why I support it with my back Until my comrades all crawl safely through, but... What do you do if you're young and white and Jewish? And you've got to be in class at half-past nine And in spite of all your urgin', and your pleadin' and your cryin' Your mother says it's too dirty down in a mine, That what she says, Your mother says it's too dirty down in a mine. Well now, I'd like to sing about the Mississippi, Workin' on the levee all the day And when them cotton bolls get rotten You got a lotta rotten cotton And on Saturday you go and spend your pay, but What do you do if you're young and white and Jewish? And you've never loaded cotton on the dock? And you've never worked a day Or drunk up all your pay And the only levee you know is the Levy who lives on the block, Yes The only levee you know is the Levy who lives on the block. |
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23 Aug 12 - 03:33 PM (#3394149) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle The problem of Mr. Krinkle. What makes you think there's a Mr. Krinkle problem? (:-( 0)= |
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23 Aug 12 - 03:42 PM (#3394152) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Jeri Dear Ghost of Shel Silverstein, there could not possibly be a more appropriate song for this thread! I sing songs because I like them. I try to give credit to where they came from. No one in their right minds will ever believe I'm a sailor from more than a century ago. I don't think any of them have kept for that long. |
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23 Aug 12 - 03:49 PM (#3394155) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle I at least try to sing songs from my geographical area and ethnic group. What do I know about mojos and black cat bones? Not much. And for me to sing about them is ridiculous. (:-( ))= |
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23 Aug 12 - 04:09 PM (#3394161) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Don Firth The record I learned the song from—and a song book I found later—both listed it as "MacPherson's Fareweel." As in "Fareweel, ye dungeons dark and strong. . . ." I saw it listed as "MacPherson's Rant some years later in another song book. It seems a bit picky and pointless to argue over whether "Lord Randal" should be spelled with on "L" or two. Does it matter that much? #### I was sitting one day in The Folklore Center, a music store devoted to various kinds of folk music, on Seattle's University Way back around 1960 or so. Big John, proprietor of the store stocked a number of inexpensive guitars, a banjo or two, and strings of all kinds, along with music instruction books, song books, and a huge stock of folk records. Big John and I, along with a couple of other people, were listening to one of a recent shipment of LP records that had just come in. It consisted of an interesting variety of folk songs and ballads, And the singer had a round, rich, obviously trained bass voice. He was singing the songs very well. Unlike a number of classical or operatic singers who occasionally add a folk song or two to their recital programs, and who make the mistake of giving the song the full operatic treatment. I once heard the great American basso, George London, who does a marvelous job of singing Wotan in Wagner's "Ring of the Nibelungs" and the title role in "Boris Godunov," sing "Lord Randal," treating it like the "Boris's death" scene in the aforementioned opera. Gawd-bloody-awfull!!. But this singer obviously knew what he was doing. He was singing the songs straight, with none of the pyrotechnics that some classical singers try. As we listened, a fellow came into the shop wearing a back-pack and lugging a guitar case. He stood there and listened for a few minutes, then threw a hissy-fit. He pointed at the turntable with a trembling finger and shouted, "That man has NO RIGHT to sing those songs! He's a classical singer! That's a folk song! He has no right to sing those songs with a voice like that!!!" Turned out the guy had hitchhiked up from Berkeley, and was one of the klatch of hard-nosed ethnic purists of the ilk that Bob Nelson and I had encountered in 1959, when we were barnstorming in the Bay Area. They tried their damnedest to sound like field recordings, and I think those who had naturally good voices were forced to gargle with Drano. What this fellow didn't know was that the singer on the record was Win Stracke, who was the co-founder in 1956, along with Frank Hamilton (who adds his knowledge and wisdom to these threads from time to time), of the Old Town School of Folk Music in Chicago. Win Stacke, along with Frank Hamilton, has done more to further an appreciation and understanding of folk music in a large number of people than this unwashed college drop-out would ever be able to comprehend! When he calmed down a bit, he said that he had come to Seattle looking for singing jobs. I did hear him sing at a songfest a few evenings later. He was a pale imitation of Woody Guthrie and an indifferent guitarist, and sneered a lot when other people sang. Some Good Samaritan took pity on him and allow him to sleep on his couch while he looked for singing jobs. The Good Samaritan told me later that the guy did nothing but complain and never left the apartment, apparently expecting Sol Hurok to come and beg to be allowed to act as his agent-manager. He kept raiding the G. S.'s refrigerator without offering to contribute. Bitched the whole time he was there. Didn't bathe. After about a week, he declared Seattle to be the "asshole of the world," then picked up his guitar and headed for Vancouver, British Columbia. Never heard from or about him again. After reading some of Mr. Hinkle's criticisms of those who've never served time in the hoosegow having the audacity to think they can sing folk songs, I was somehow reminded of this guy. . . . Don Firth |
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23 Aug 12 - 04:13 PM (#3394162) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Larry The Radio Guy Yeah, but you can always pretend! Think of singing as being a form of 'acting'......where you try to make the character come alive, empathize as much as you can, and put your 'soul' into it. I think singing folk songs can be viewed that way. But it's also ok to play the part of 'historian' or folk revivalist bringing back a tradition. I say different strokes for different folks. |
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23 Aug 12 - 04:17 PM (#3394166) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: TheSnail Jim Carroll No - and your point? I would have thought that, as people actively involved in the performance of 'folk' or 'traditional' or 'come-all-ye' or 'local' or Norfolk' or 'Traveller', or simply 'old' songs, they might have had a lot to contribute. |
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23 Aug 12 - 04:22 PM (#3394169) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Larry The Radio Guy Henry, what's your opinion of actors? |
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23 Aug 12 - 04:25 PM (#3394170) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle Robert Mitchum called himself an actress. He had no respect for the acting profession. And I agree. I think it's silly. (:-( P)= |
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23 Aug 12 - 04:29 PM (#3394173) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Jim Carroll ", they might have had a lot to contribute." They did, when they were asked. The conference, as far as I can make out, was an international overview of people working in the traditions who pooled their collective knowledge and experiences to arrive at some sort of a consensus. Their conclusions were useful enough to me for thirty odd years fieldwork, (if much in need of updating by people who emerged from their folkie greenhouses for long enough to have something to offer) I'd be quite happy to consider your alternatives, or were you too busy slagging off books you hadn't read to arrive at one? Jim Carroll |
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23 Aug 12 - 04:56 PM (#3394180) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Spleen Cringe Hmmm. There's a lot of slightly macho posturing from our Mr Krinkle going on and I don't know what any of it has to do with having a deep and abiding affection for the best of the old songs. Here's a thing. I was in a recording studio today with a bunch of youngish (25 - 40 year old) musicians from the North of England. They recorded a version of Rebel Soldier, a song collected by Sharp and Karpeles around a century ago. Now, as far as I am aware, none of these young(ish) Englishmen have ever been 'rebel soldiers'. They've faced neither muskets nor cannons that lumber loud and none of them have built castles on some green mountain high. Yet, the arrangement and singing of this song brought a lump to my throat and a tear to my eye - they performed it absolutely beautifully and the singer inhabited the world and the experience he was singing about. You want to know why? It's because i) they are a talented and dedicated bunch of musicians; ii) they love and respect the best of this music; iii) any song worth its salt transcends the specifics of what it reports on and speaks to a more universal human truth; iv) (to misquote Martin Carthy) the worst thing you can do to folk songs is not sing 'em. Here endeth. |
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23 Aug 12 - 05:06 PM (#3394182) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Larry The Radio Guy Well spoken, Spleen Cringe. |
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23 Aug 12 - 05:11 PM (#3394184) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle It is contrived. I don't watch TV shows for that very reason. But millions love TV. You're entitled to present whatever you want. Don't expect everyone to approve. (:-( ))= |
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23 Aug 12 - 05:11 PM (#3394185) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Spleen Cringe Thanks, Larry! |
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23 Aug 12 - 05:17 PM (#3394186) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Don Firth Larry's right. Good singing IS a form of acting. It's an essential part of the minstrel's art. #### Having never heard me, Krinkle, you actually feel qualified to make judgments like that? Well, for your enlightenment and education, here's a review of a concert that Bob Nelson and I did together a few years back: Read it carefully, Mr. Krinkle. The reviewer, Jordan Myers, GETS it! Don Firth |
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23 Aug 12 - 05:28 PM (#3394192) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle How about some youtube links? I can better form an opinion. (:-( ))= |
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23 Aug 12 - 05:28 PM (#3394193) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Spleen Cringe But Mr Krinkle, what is okay in your book? I hear lots of naysaying, but little in the way of positive endorsements of folk how you think it should be. For me, getting in touch with the 'universal human truths' in the songs is the key. Maybe for you that's not enough. Anyway... |
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23 Aug 12 - 05:34 PM (#3394196) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle I think Hank Williams had it down cold. But he had to develop. George Jones is the greatest singer who ever lived. Kitty Wells. I think you need to know yourself. And sing about you and your life. (:-( ))= |
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23 Aug 12 - 05:47 PM (#3394201) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: PHJim I was surprised to see another thread about "Is this folk music?" People have been trying to define this for many years and have come to many very different conclusions. I think we should just agree to disagree. For anyone who's interested, here are some definitions. Perhaps one of them is correct. -Music transmitted by mouth -Music of the lower classes -Music with unknown composers -Old songs, with no known composers -Music that has been transmitted and evolved by a process of oral transmission -Music that originates in traditional popular culture or that is written in such a style -Music, usually of simple character and anonymous authorship, handed down among the common people by oral tradition -Music by known composers that has become part of the folk tradition of a country or region -The music must be very old; that it is a particular style of music; that the author is not known. An art song is one that is written by a trained composer and is passed on in written form, whereas a folk song is one which is passed on in the oral tradition rather than in written form (Nettl & Myers, 1976). -The International Folk Music Council adopted this definition at its Annual Conference in London in 1952. It is "music that has been submitted to the process of oral transmission. It is the product of oral transmission. It is the product of evolution and is dependent on the circumstances of continuity, variation and selection." The music may change and evolve as it passes from person to person (Karpeles, 1955, p. 6-7). -The music also has a simple melody. Brand (1962) described the American folk song as "distinguishable by a special sound, a kind of 'simple' noise" (p. 10). -Rhodes (1966) said that folk music could be defined by its sociological function because it is a kind of social behavior. "Interpreted in this light, it can reveal a great deal regarding the interests, thinking and feeling of the people" (Rhodes, 1966, p. 18). -Bohlman (1988) talked about folk music's ability to "express the most profound of human values" (p. xii). -Historically, both folk and popular music are learned through hearing and performing, but that performers of "serious" music have formal training in music theory, composition, and more (Denski, 1992). -There are two kinds of popular music, the folk and mass forms. The folk form is performed live, and the mass form is recorded (Cutler, 1985) -Forcucci wrote in 1984 that: 1. Folk songs represent the musical expressions of the common people. 2. These songs are not composed in that they are not the works of skilled, tutored musicians. It is more accurate to say that they have been created rather than composed. 3. These songs are ordinarily the product of an unknown person or group of persons. The credits often read: Anonymous; American Folk Song; Traditional; or Southern Mountain Song. [But Forcucci notes that there are folklike songs where the author is known, but that these songs are "patterned to fit the mold of what typical American folk songs should sound like," p. 18.] 4. The words or lyrics of folk songs are usually colloquial in nature to reflect the speech patterns and expressions of a particular people or region. 5. These songs are highly singable, primarily because they were first presented with the singing voice rather than have been written down in musical notation beforehand. 6. Folk songs are simply structured, both musically and verbally. It is their naivete that gives them their charm. 7. These songs can be effectively performed without instrumental accompaniment. When they are accompanied, a less formal instrument (such as a guitar, banjo, accordion, dulcimer, or Autoharp) is considered appropriate. 8. Folk songs are indigenous to a particular region or people because they reflect the musical/verbal preferences of that people or region in their materials. (Forcucci, 1984, pp. 18-19) -Folk music is a vital, living art, not an archeological antiquity. It continues to be a medium through which the people express their thoughts, feelings and interests even as the folk did in the past. The subject matter and the musical style have changed with the changing times, but the fundamental principle of folk song and its relation to the people have remained the same. (Rhodes, 1966) -Michael Cooney's definition can be found at Michael Cooney's definition -Michael also said, in a less scholarly moment, "If it takes more than two trips to get your gear from the car to the stage, it ain't folk music." -Catfish Willie said, "It's a four letter word that starts with F and ends with K and if you use it, they won't play your songs on the radio." -Perhaps the most famous definition of folk music is Big Bill Broonzy's - I guess all songs is folk songs. I never heard no horse sing 'em. -There has been an ongoing debate about the definition of folk music going on in the pages of Sing Out! magazine, starting in the early 50s and going on to the present. |
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23 Aug 12 - 05:51 PM (#3394202) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: TheSnail Jim Carroll The conference, as far as I can make out, was an international overview of people working in the traditions who pooled their collective knowledge and experiences to arrive at some sort of a consensus. But limited, apparently, to ouside observers and excluding the people who were actually doing it. I'd be quite happy to consider your alternatives Quite simple. treat Walter Pardon, Phoebe Smith, Harry Cox, Duncan Williamson, [TheStewarts of Blairgowrie], Texas Gladden, Joe Heaney, Jane Turriff as if they were normal human beings with valid opinions based on their own experience rather than objects of study in the way that an ornithologist might study birds or a palaeontologist might study fossils. or were you too busy slagging off books you hadn't read to arrive at one? Lost me completely there, Jim. If that was meant to be some sort of personal attack, try and make it comprehensible but better still, stick to the subject under discussion. |
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23 Aug 12 - 05:53 PM (#3394203) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: GUEST,Stim No offense intended, but you're actually pretty much a poser (well, poseur) yourself, Henry. Tossing around all those really shallow, superficial barbs about folk music and folk musicians as if you knew what you were talking about. You are taking a whack at a straw man, and and a pretty old and worn out straw man, at that--with little evidence that you know much about the subject. I like the attitude, though. It fits in. Most important to know, (if you don't) you've just restarted a discussion that is one of the cornerstones of Mudcat, and has been running since before Gargoyle stopped signing on with his real name. You haven't really tweaked anyone's nose. They've been going on like this for years. Without the squabbling, I suppose Mudcat wouldn't be nearly as much fun-just a bunch of threads about banjo tunings, Mandolin pegs, and debates about Martin dreadnaughts from the 1970s, with the odd chat about the origin of the melody for "The Night Before Larry was Stretched", with links to broadsides at the Bodleian Library. The squabbling makes it almost as entertaining as Professional Wrestling. However, one tends to focus on the conflict, and to overlook Jim Carroll's amazing knowledge of singers, songs, and sources. Not to mention the tasteful simple and expressive way that Don Firth has been applying voice and guitar to traditional ballads(which, if I am not wrong, he's been doing since before Son House actually began playing in the Blues Revival). Then there is The Snail, who is a part of that Lewes scene where they make old music sound new or new music that sounds like it is old. And then there is Blandiver, who, underneath all the rantings, creates what a program director might be tempted to call "Traditional Music for the 21st Century". Again, no offense intended--someone has to keep the interest up, but you should know that underneath the free-for-all, the real deal is lurking. |
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23 Aug 12 - 05:53 PM (#3394204) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle I figured. Purists. (:-( ))= |
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23 Aug 12 - 07:21 PM (#3394228) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle I didn't start with barbs, insults, cursing, namecalling and misspelling of names. That's where other folks quickly went. It appears some can dish it out, but they just can't take it. Don't care much for freedom of speech here, do you. You can insult me with impunity. I toss a little of your own medicine at you and it gets deleted and edited. Shades of Stalin. (:-( O)= |
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23 Aug 12 - 07:29 PM (#3394232) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Don Firth "Purists," eh? Hank Williams, George Jones, and Kitty Wells were all commercial Country and Western singers. What was the question again? "Is it Really Folk Music???" (It is to laugh!!) Don Firth |
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23 Aug 12 - 08:03 PM (#3394265) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle Bob Dylan. Commercial. Joan Baez. Commercial. Peter Paul and Mary? Commercial. Johnny Cash. Commercial. All those names have been invoked in my thread.Any time you record to sell you are commercial. Kitty Wells had more Folk in her than all the Mudcatters combined. Your kind of Folk compares to children putting on costumes or playing dress-up. (:-( o)= |
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23 Aug 12 - 08:04 PM (#3394266) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Don Firth Which is to say that Hank Williams, George Jones, and Kitty Wells were all fine singers. But were they folk?? Eh? Wot? Hmm? Don Firth |
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23 Aug 12 - 08:05 PM (#3394267) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: GUEST,999 "I toss a little of your own medicine at you and it gets deleted and edited." May I ask what got either edited or deleted? |
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23 Aug 12 - 08:08 PM (#3394269) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle I know this is a long standing argument with you pseudo folkies. I brought it up earlier. Why do you think I started the thread? Hot debate. Toss a little gasoline on the fire. And watch you smoke. (:-( ))= |
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23 Aug 12 - 08:10 PM (#3394270) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Don Firth So your criterion is that if someone gets PAID for singing, they aren't folk? I believe Jean Ritchie has been paid for singing concerts. I know that Lightnin' Hopkins, Mississippi John Hurt, and Mance Lipscomb have all been paid for doing concerts. Almeda Riddle has been paid. So was Elizabeth Cotton. Enlighten us, oh, wise one! Don Firth P. S. Do you even know of the singers I mentioned? |
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23 Aug 12 - 08:21 PM (#3394280) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle I know Elizabeth, Lightnin, Mance. You made the distinction about commercial music. Not me. Hank had more Folk in him than Peter Paul and Mary could dream of. And they were put together by a record producer to make a buck. (:-( ))= |
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23 Aug 12 - 08:29 PM (#3394285) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Don Firth So big deal! Nobody here claimed that they are "folk singers." "Singers of folk songs," yes, for the simple reason that they sing a lot of folk songs. I have never claimed to be a "folk singer." You're wasting a helluva lot of bandwidth just to feed your sick ego, Krinkle! Don Firth |
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23 Aug 12 - 08:33 PM (#3394288) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Big Al Whittle If Son House wanted to call us monkeys. and Jim Carrol wants to call us passive recptors, and its generally agreed by everyone who knows anything that we know nowt - sod 'em. Just enjoy what you can, you're a folk - if your music doesn't qualify for the little lion on the eggshell - so bloody what. The blokes who taught Joe Heaney and Son House didn't get the approval of anyone either. Its their vitality -that they donated freely that carried the music forward, and that's what you've got over all those buggers who are dead - and its that, that the music depends on. Folk music - not a historical fact in a library - the birthright and practice of living musicians. They decide what is folk music - it not given to experts to arbitrate - its something arrived at by you and me, and all the other monkeys and dupes and generally worthless types. |
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23 Aug 12 - 08:40 PM (#3394291) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle It's about having fun with music. Not being a narrow minded grumpy old fart. (:-( ))= |
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23 Aug 12 - 08:42 PM (#3394292) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle Right Al. Up to your personal interpretation. (:-( ))= |
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23 Aug 12 - 08:51 PM (#3394297) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: GUEST,pubkfolkrocker Shame, I expected a mod would swiftly delete 'that' nasty self damning post from Krinkle. He provided himself with enough rope and he decisively hung himself. Please reinstate it. |
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23 Aug 12 - 09:05 PM (#3394303) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle Why are posts deleted? Paid advertisers might go elsewhere? Why can I be cursed and insulted? Why can't I curse and insult back? If you can't take it, don't dish it out. (:-( P)= |
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23 Aug 12 - 09:09 PM (#3394304) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle And do please reinstate my deleted posts. Please. (:-( ))= |
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23 Aug 12 - 09:13 PM (#3394306) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Don Firth And just who here is being the "narrow minded grumpy old fart?" Don Firth |
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23 Aug 12 - 09:26 PM (#3394310) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle Son House? (:-( ))= |
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23 Aug 12 - 09:30 PM (#3394312) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle But I really do think alot of you just like to play dress up. Put on a cutesy costume and act like somebody else. (:-( ))= |
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23 Aug 12 - 09:40 PM (#3394316) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Don Firth Wot the hell are you talking about, Krinkle? I don't wear costumes. I dress like a normal human being, go out in front of the audience, and I sing. Then I pick up my check and go home. THAT'S what's griping your ass, isn't it!! Don Firth |
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23 Aug 12 - 09:55 PM (#3394324) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle I didn't mean literal costumes. I meant when you play songs that aren't part of your culture, you're putting on a costume. Your culture is likely nothing to sing about. I have more interesting things to sing about in my real life. I just need to put words to them. I gotta get organizized..... (:-( ))= |
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23 Aug 12 - 09:58 PM (#3394328) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Don Firth Yes, yom most certainly do. Don Firth |
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23 Aug 12 - 10:14 PM (#3394331) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle You talkin' to me? I don't see anybody else here. You talkin' to me? You talkin' to me? (:-( 0)= |
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23 Aug 12 - 10:26 PM (#3394333) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: GUEST,999 And just who here is being the "narrow minded grumpy old fart?" That would be me. Best rock song ever happened is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ul-cZyuYq4 unless you like Gene Vincent, or Dave Edmunds, two of the best R and R'ers ever. |
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23 Aug 12 - 10:37 PM (#3394344) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: GUEST,effsee,sans cookie Why is everbody feeding this Troll? |
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23 Aug 12 - 10:51 PM (#3394348) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: GUEST,999 Because music is better than bullshit. Yoo, myy man, here it be-> |
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23 Aug 12 - 11:07 PM (#3394352) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: GUEST,999 And that my friend is pretty much what I have to say. Except this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrURe9s572I . |
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23 Aug 12 - 11:11 PM (#3394354) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: GUEST,999 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrURe9s572I Sorry. |
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23 Aug 12 - 11:56 PM (#3394362) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Don Firth "Why is everbody feeding this Troll?" Well, it's a slow evening on television. And my momma always told me to be kind to dumb animals. Don Firth |
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24 Aug 12 - 03:14 AM (#3394377) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Larry The Radio Guy Why is everybody getting so excited? It's only a difference of opinion. Henry's actually quite consistent in raving about the "folk' aspects of Kitty Wells and Hank Williams as they did sing what they know. Myself, I kind of liked Peter, Paul, and Mary too. But hey! They're just singers. |
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24 Aug 12 - 03:44 AM (#3394382) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: theleveller This really is the funniest thread I've read on Mudcat since the Re-Imagined Village. I just wonder what anyone new to the folk (for want of a better word) scene would make of it. "its generally agreed by everyone who knows anything that we know nowt - sod 'em. Just enjoy what you can, you're a folk - if your music doesn't qualify for the little lion on the eggshell - so bloody what." Ah, some sense at last. I think Big Al should be made President of the EFDSS - or at least its Public Relations Officer. |
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24 Aug 12 - 03:47 AM (#3394383) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Jim Carroll Quite simple. treat Walter Pardon..... as if they were normal human beings with valid opinions Which is exactly what was done - not to the extent I would have wanted, as I have said elsewhere, but the definition was based on information received from such people. That was the type of information we gathered and have made available through archiving and giving access to our collection. The shortcomings of the early collectors in not fully seeking such information has made it necessary to update the prsent definition, but until that is done, we're stuck with the one we have - which, as I've said, worked for us for long enough. "Jim Carrol wants to call us passive recptors" Isn't that what we have become Al, or have agricultural labourers, miners (whoops, sorry, Maggie did away with them), soldiers, seamen et al continued to make songs that reflect their lives occupations and aspirations? We saw what I believe to be the last thriving songmaking tradition in these islands die before our eyes when Travellers stopped making songs and went to Comet and brought home portable television sets - the death throes lasted 18 months, between 1973 and 1975. There are signs within the Travelling communities (certainly in Ireland and Scotland) of a revival, but that's all it is. Whether it becomes big enough to stimulate a return to what was happening in the early 70s rmains to be seen - it didn't happen in the settled communities. Jim Carroll |
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24 Aug 12 - 04:07 AM (#3394386) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle See? Don can call me a dumb animal. And it stands. If I call him a washed up old has been it gets deleted. I like Peter Paul and Mary. But it was a contrived act put together by Albert Grossman.Commercial to the core. Like The New Kids on the Block. It wasn't folk. It was fantasy. Putting on a costume and playing make believe. (:-( P)= |
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24 Aug 12 - 04:21 AM (#3394389) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle And I've been feeding you. Food for thought. Don't be a pantywaist and call me a troll. Call me Mister Krinkle. (:-( ))= |
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24 Aug 12 - 05:50 AM (#3394405) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle And for some real Rock and Roll go watch some vids of Joe Maphis and Larry Collins playing together on The Town Hall Party. (:-( O)= |
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24 Aug 12 - 06:46 AM (#3394413) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle I thought we came here together out of a love for old music. And to have mature discussion. Not to shout down and insult anyone who has a different opinion or perspective. I'm not a Folkie. I'm a folk. And I resent anyone who poses as a folk. It's insulting. (:-( 0)= |
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24 Aug 12 - 07:57 AM (#3394433) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: GUEST,Blandiver These are all valid points, and it pays, I think, to be aware of them whatever our personal feelings might be. Folk is a broad church, but its foundations aren't Traditional Song as song as such, rather the foundations are built on Traditional Song, or at least a notion of it. A crucial difference or unseemly semantics? Well, as Richard & Don Firth have pointed out a Folk Song Singer is a different from a Singer of Folk Songs, though the nature & significance of that difference will differ from Folkie to Folkie and the church is broad enough to accomodate that. In terms of General Folk Faith, I think we can safely say there are no Folk Song Singers extant ('...you're all post-revival now, Sunny Jim!') and just because no latter-day land-lubbing shanty singer has e'er merrily tossed with his shipmates upon the high rolling briney, it doesn't mean they can't enjoy a merry blow-boys-blow even though high-but-seldom-dry in their local Designated Folk Context. Personal Passion is the key here. I have an especial fondness for poaching & fox hunting songs, even though my Hunt Sabbing days are long past, and I haven't poached since 1999 when I went out with my borrowed air-rifle in the early dawn shooting rabbits on Brancepeth Castle Golf Course (the three I shot were well myxed so I gave up). My favourite ever Folk Song is about the hunting an (innocent) hare; I especially like to sing it to myself in Norfolk when I go out hunting hares of a crisp spring dawn with my camera (Then up she springs: 30th March 2012. Even when I sing it with my wife (as a shimmering psychedelic drone, hem hem) in my heart I'm out there midst the the freshly torn furrows of Tatterford; this is now Folk works for me personally, like. You don't have to have lived through the horrors of the Trimdon Grange Mining Disaster of February 1882 to be moved to tears by even the most inexperienced floor singer singing Tommy Armstrong's Trimdon Grange Explosion. Spleen said earlier about connecting with the human spirit. Can any of us Singers of Folk Songs sing any old song and remain unmoved by it? Surely the whole act of learning a song is a ritual act of pure communion in which we assimilate our very souls with something wondrously ancient in an act that is, primarily, about personal catharthis. This is a very different thing from thinking that by singing these songs were carrying on The Tradition. I don't believe we are - we're just part of a small elite of Singers & Enthusiasts for whom the old songs live in our hearts regardless. It really is a matter of love & keen enthusiasm, and at times, I grant, that enthusiasm maybe in dire need of a little curbing (guilty as charged) but mostly I'd say things is just fine. I recently added the controversial (see separate thread) Fakenham Fair to my repertoir after a wander a round Morrisons in Fakenham in a possession of the Genius Locii, and I'll sing James Armstrong's The Kielder Hunt in a similar spirit. The bottom line here is that people sing this stuff and they love singing it. Sure, we can rant all we like but as soon as we're in the Folk Zone all the theory falls away and you're right there, happy as Larry the Sand Boy, joyfully communing with the wonder of the thing, be it on stage, in a recording studio, in your local singaround or session or out in the fields. There's no hierachy of pure joy I'm sure, and it pays to remember that a) this why we do it and b) this is what Folk Music (really) is. |
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24 Aug 12 - 08:17 AM (#3394438) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker My vintage [well.. early 80s] Korg Poly 6 is as much a 'Folk' instrument as any mega expensive elite hand crafted modern squeeze box or bag pipes.. .. and now due to failing components it plays quite erratically, squarking and honking and crackling without any regard for the notes actually played on the keyboard.. That's when it's not too temperamental to even switch on and emit any sound at all........... So I'd argue that makes it even 'folkier' than any affluent folkies's brand new Hurdy Gurdy.... |
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24 Aug 12 - 08:22 AM (#3394440) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Jim Carroll "...you're all post-revival now, Sunny Jim!" If that was aimed at me - I have never said otehrwise - it has been my point from day one and I've taken a great deal of flak for suggesting it. Your stance, on the other had has varied from, 'the tradition is a figment of the imagination of Victorian gentleman antiquarians' to 'we are all traditional singers'. If I have mistaken your argument, I apologise, but please put it down to verbose wrappings that your posts usually arrive in. Jim Carroll |
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24 Aug 12 - 08:46 AM (#3394448) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: GUEST,John Holmes of Edinburgh Mr Krinkle, You seem so keen on authenticity. May I ask what your real name is? Best, John Holmes |
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24 Aug 12 - 09:06 AM (#3394455) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle No. You may not. And what difference does it make? And what makes you think it's not my real name? You should all keep in mind how foolish those Blues Barbeques look. And what many of those performers think of you. Affable on stage. Hating you off stage. A bunch of drunk yuppies and frat boys. Remember the scene in Animal House when the frat boys went to the colored part of town to see Otis Day? Stick to the music of your ethnicity, economic group and time. (:-( ))= |
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24 Aug 12 - 09:21 AM (#3394461) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: theleveller Incidentally Mr Krinkle-Kut (may I call you Chips?) what sort of music do you play? Aplogies if you've told us somewhere along the line - I proably missed it while I was wetting myself with laughter. |
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24 Aug 12 - 09:30 AM (#3394462) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: GUEST,Blandiver If that was aimed at me Oops! No it wasn't, but thanks for pointing it out. Your stance, on the other had has varied from, 'the tradition is a figment of the imagination of Victorian gentleman antiquarians' to 'we are all traditional singers'. At my most magnanimous I am overcome by the feeling that The Folk Revival is this all-inclusive warm loving mothering Great Spirit of Belonging that nurtures each and every one of her children with equal & unconditional adoration. In such a state of mind I might allow that the very act of singing a Traditional Song is a sort of mediumistic trance possession which can result in some very fine ectoplasm indeed. At the very least it is Holy Communion in which I can well believe in the literal truth of Transubstantiation. Nursing the hangover the following morning I might be less optimistic. It is then I line up my complete collection of Busts of Famous Folk Song Collectors that came free with packets of Sugar Puffs back in 1971 and shoot them with plastic bullets fired from my Multi Pistol 09 (the poorman's Johnny Seven I know; I also know my place). Mostly though-but, you'll find me haunting the hinterlands in between, kicking over the fields in search of the odd clay-pipe bowl or piece of ancient bottle-glass that provides a more tangible sort of archaeology than even the disembodied voice of Joseph Taylor singing Brigg Fair on Percy Grainger's wax cylinder. I suppose it's always been That Voice which has called me folkwards. But that it exists at all is due to the complexities of a hierachical social apartheid which we Brits are supposed to accept with passive deferential gratitude as our birthright. As I said earlier, my enthusiams are fed by such dialectics. I thrive on the contradictions, and even, at times, might contradict myself as I catch something in a different light. There are no absolutes here, just a merry stroll along the long vanished lanes where, as an 11-year-old boy, at some point in Easter 1973, my heart was opened to the notion that Traditional Folk Song was something very different from what you might hear on (the still utterly compelling) Hearken to the Witches Rune. I think I've been dealing with that ever since... |
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24 Aug 12 - 09:31 AM (#3394463) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle Simple old country tunes. Old Rock and Roll tunes. Stuff I grew up with. |
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24 Aug 12 - 09:37 AM (#3394467) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: theleveller So not folk then. |
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24 Aug 12 - 09:46 AM (#3394472) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle Not UK folk. American Folk. UK and European Folk is completely alien to me. Maybe I mistook this place for a Country Blues place. I have no interest in UK or European Folk. (:-( ))= |
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24 Aug 12 - 09:47 AM (#3394473) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: GUEST,John Holmes Seems to me that if you can't even be authentic with your name you're batting on a rather sticky wicket expecting authenticity from others. A shame, you seem to be just another actor, pretending to be someone else. |
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24 Aug 12 - 09:56 AM (#3394476) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: theleveller Ah! |
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24 Aug 12 - 10:11 AM (#3394480) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Jim Carroll "At my most magnanimous I am overcome......" The revival, which you are part and parcel of, at its best, is made up of people who recognise the existance of a superb body of songs passed down to us and are prepared to acknowledge and appreciate the contribution made by those who gave it to them/us. By your constant debunking of the work of others with your clever/clever flights of verbosity and your failure to offer an alternative, you constantly call into question folk song and the people who gave it to us. Pontificating dilettante keeps springing to mind, but I'm not sure that you're even that committed. Do you fill all your posts with verbose fluff because you have nothing but your wrecking ball as a response to argument? Just thought I'd ask. Jim Carroll |
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24 Aug 12 - 10:12 AM (#3394481) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Big Al Whittle Accused of talking sense on Mudcat....I've never been so insulted..! Actually fishermen and farmer do still write a lot of songs about their jobs - I wasn't aware of them - living in Nottingham - but down here in Doset - the buggers are all at it. Not my cup of tea. |
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24 Aug 12 - 10:19 AM (#3394483) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle Now we can talk about at what point in time after release a commercial tune becomes a folk tune. I think Johnny B. Goode is a folk tune at this point. Rock Around the Clock. I think its soon after the culture makes it a hit. Madonna's Like a Virgin is a folk tune? I think so. (:-( ))= |
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24 Aug 12 - 10:19 AM (#3394484) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: theleveller "I've never been so insulted..!" Really? That does surprise me! :0 (sorry) |
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24 Aug 12 - 10:22 AM (#3394486) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Big Al Whittle The first dirty joke my sister ever told me concerned a newly married bride, who on her wedding night pulled her Mother's choice of night attire for her from the suitcase, and said in some alarm.....URRRRGH!ALL PINK AND CRINKLY! To which her new husband said, Oh you!You promised! no peeping! I was about five at the time and it scarred me for life. perhaps Henry is recalling a similar trauma. |
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24 Aug 12 - 10:27 AM (#3394489) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle My stage name, sweetcheeks. Henry Krinkle is my stage name. (:-( P)= |
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24 Aug 12 - 10:58 AM (#3394499) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle For starting this discussion I am: A complete prick Windup merchant Red neck Ignoramus Troll Dumb animal Poser O wise one Who is: Stupid Cowardly Mach posturing Who can go fuck himself twice With a sick ego Did I miss anything? (:-( D)= Thank you for your thoughtful posts |
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24 Aug 12 - 10:59 AM (#3394500) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle Macho posturing |
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24 Aug 12 - 11:23 AM (#3394508) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: GUEST,Blandiver The revival, which you are part and parcel of, at its best, is made up of people who recognise the existance of a superb body of songs passed down to us and are prepared to acknowledge and appreciate the contribution made by those who gave it to them/us. I disagree, Jim. The Revival is made up of people who have made a lot assumptions about the nature of folk song and held their truths to be self-evident thereafter. At its core is a consensus of romantic aestheticism defined by a more savage prescription. It always operates at several very significant removes from its primary sources, and even propagates the notions of hierarchy of authenticity & pure-bloodedness that persist unto this day. You see this as a wrecking ball - hardly so - it's endemic to the nature of the revival. I've read about it everywhere from The Penguin Book of English Folk Songs (the old one; haven't got round to reading the new one yet) to Bob Pegg's Folk, Harker's Fakesong and Boyes The Imagined Village none of which you could call harsh critiques. It's a simple fact of life that Folk is the invention & concern of an social elite - an Intelligentsia - who are very different from the non-elite - a Proletariat - who made and sang the songs in the first place. But, get this, I appreciate the contribution of the collectors but I'm also under no illusions as to the contradictions inherent in elite members of one (superior) social class collecting the work of another (inferior) social class and subjecting that work to the sort of taxonomy and taxidermy that not only typifies the revival, but is anathema to both the nature of the songs and the people who made and sang them. No wrecking ball here, Jim - just point of fact: The Revival is a Bourgeois Conceit; the entire concept of Folk likewise. It is born of class condescension and a legacy of feudal deference which it preserves with greater success that the material which it has persistently misrepresented, re-invented and trivialised since Cecil Sharp first made his parlour piano arrangement of The Seeds of Love some 109 years ago (almost to the day) the same day he first heard John England singing it. I'm as much a product of that as anyone - a part of the revival as you say. There is no alternative, simply because that's the way it is and, in any case, Traditional Folk Song is an extinct species. On the collected evidence, the best we can do is to speculate as to its traditional ecology, but that's all it's going to be - speculation driven by faith and fundamentalism. My theory? I've said it as many times. Folk Song is the creation of working class masters of their craft shaped by necessity, fashion and usage. The Tradition is a quantifiable musicological idiom, but otherwise it is no different from any other musical idiom. Music is music; language is language; all culture is flux, diversity, and adaptation consequent on the individual & collective creative genius of humanity. And that's the same thing you'll find from Balinese Gamelan to Free Improvisation to Hip-Hop to Death Metal and beyond. Music is Music, and Folk Music (so-called) is no different. I find it ironic that the 1954 Definition says much the same thing really, as does the Horse Definition. Music is Human; Music is the consequence of Traditional Idioms unique to specific individuals, cultures & communities; things change as they get passed on. No music is any different, and yet all musics are unique. Same could be said of people. We are the music makers - we are the dreamers of dreams. |
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24 Aug 12 - 11:30 AM (#3394510) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle So much for the stereotype of the gentle, peaceful folkie. (:-( ))= |
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24 Aug 12 - 11:35 AM (#3394512) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: GUEST,John Holmes "Henry Krinkle", it wasn't the starting of this discussion which resulted in the name calling, it was your unpleasant personality. If a bunch of random strangers all take against you so vehemently, perhaps you don't have the most likeable character? And I am aware of the double meaning here of the word "character". |
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24 Aug 12 - 11:38 AM (#3394513) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: GUEST,bankley "It ain't what they call you, it's what you answer to" W.C Fields "My music is best understood by children and animals" Igor Stravinsky |
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24 Aug 12 - 11:38 AM (#3394514) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Stilly River Sage Now we can talk about at what point in time after release a commercial tune becomes a folk tune. I think Johnny B. Goode is a folk tune at this point. Rock Around the Clock. Yeah, right, we buy that is a legitimate contribution to a folk music discussion. [NOT] Pushing buttons, making absurd statements, posting (as of now) 368 posts in just over three weeks of membership, and using the moniker of a killer in the movie Taxi Driver http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5vZw3_MWtY all don't bode well for your participation here. One only has to contemplate motive. SRS |
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24 Aug 12 - 11:41 AM (#3394515) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: GUEST,Stan Stay by Henry Krinkle http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieSaPxKXgEU Relevant? |
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24 Aug 12 - 11:48 AM (#3394516) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle Not me. i don't do monkey junk. (:-( ))= |
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24 Aug 12 - 11:55 AM (#3394518) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle And those people needed killing. (:-( P)= |
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24 Aug 12 - 11:58 AM (#3394521) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: GUEST,Blandiver HK: I think Johnny B. Goode is a folk tune at this point. SRS: Yeah, right, we buy that is a legitimate contribution to a folk music discussion. [NOT] 1954 Defifinition: The term does not cover composed popular music that has been taken over ready-made by a community and remains unchanged, for it is the re-fashioning and re-creation of the music by the community that gives it its folk character. Blandiver Interpretation: Well, I doubt any subsequent performance of Johnny B. Goode has been entirely similar to the original. I was in a band once & we'd regularly jam on it for upwards of half an hour & it came out differently each time and yet, unmistakably, it was Johnny B. Goode. Lots of Conclusion: Does that make it Folk? Of course not, it's Rock 'n' Roll. |
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24 Aug 12 - 11:59 AM (#3394522) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: MartinRyan Yawn... |
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24 Aug 12 - 12:05 PM (#3394524) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle But Rock and Roll is the music of the folk. Or was 50 years ago. (:-( ))= |
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24 Aug 12 - 12:11 PM (#3394525) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: TheSnail Jim Carroll Quite simple. treat Walter Pardon..... as if they were normal human beings with valid opinions Which is exactly what was done - not to the extent I would have wanted, as I have said elsewhere, but the definition was based on information received from such people. But still a sharp dividing line between the gentry and the peasantry, the academics and the subjects of their study. Much as I hate to admit to agreeing with anything that Sweeney van Driver has said (or even having read it), but "But, get this, I appreciate the contribution of the collectors but I'm also under no illusions as to the contradictions inherent in elite members of one (superior) social class collecting the work of another (inferior) social class" makes a valid point. |
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24 Aug 12 - 12:20 PM (#3394529) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle I don't have anything on youtube. But maybe soon. I finally caught up with technology a little. I have a smart phone. I bet my phone is smarter than yours. (:-( ))= |
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24 Aug 12 - 12:29 PM (#3394534) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: GUEST,Blandiver Much as I hate to admit to agreeing with anything that Sweeney van Driver has said (or even having read it) Welcome to the loving all inclusive & friendly fraternity o' Folk! What's the problem this time, TS? Last time I recall it was to do with some hysterical outburst over WAV's entirely justified vernacular folk-usage of 'could of'. What is it with Folkies who love the myriad diversities of vernacular popular usage and yet harbour such maliciously pompous pedantry in their hearts (or wherever else they keep it) based on some ill-founded notion of grammatical correctness? Still, I'm glad we might at least agree on something, though I'm less keen about you plagiarising my words to use as ammo in your ongoing petty war with Jim. Happy days are here again! |
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24 Aug 12 - 12:31 PM (#3394535) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Jim Carroll Sorry Bryan - don't get your point If the collectors got it wrong - point out where they did and correct them. Their work was flawed but it gave us a wealth of songs and they came up with a workable definition. So far you have made no effort either to says where they got it wrong ot what they should have said A little like Sweeney's constantly tearing down something that somebody put up without putting something up yourself Feel free!!! If Sharp or Broadwood or Grainger got it right, does it really matter where they came from? So far you've only said why they got it wrong Piss or get off the pot - as the man said Jim Carroll |
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24 Aug 12 - 12:42 PM (#3394540) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle You know, if I annoy you, that's your problem. Why would you give me that much control over you (:-( ))= ? |
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24 Aug 12 - 01:12 PM (#3394547) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Stilly River Sage We won't, Mr. Allison. We'll eventually delete you. SRS |
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24 Aug 12 - 01:32 PM (#3394555) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Henry Krinkle (:-( D)= I get an interesting, controversial thread going. And you get all huffy. (:-( P)= ........."controversial" - your spin on the word is different than how the rest of us understand it. Consider this your first public warning that trolling is not tolerated. Richard Allison is easily linked with Henry Krinkle via Google. There's no mystery here. --mudelf |
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24 Aug 12 - 05:48 PM (#3394633) Subject: RE: Is it Really Folk Music??? From: Max This thread is BS. Each and every one of Henry's points are invalidated by his costume of a fake name. Sad really. We've been doing this almost 17 years, we've seen this hypocrazy ad nauseum. |
