can accompanists lift the music

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can accompanists lift the music

29 Sep 12 - 02:48 PM (#3411819)
Subject: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

certain people try to claim that accompanists cannot lift music, my experience has been different, what do other people think?

29 Sep 12 - 03:32 PM (#3411831)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Paul Davenport

I'm with you Dick, I have heard accompanists that could lift a tired dancer off the floor let alone lift the music.

29 Sep 12 - 03:38 PM (#3411836)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: gnu

If the play Rhan as good as I used to, yes. >;-)

Of course they can but it has to be done right. "Right" is harder to define than "folk". Again... >;-)

29 Sep 12 - 04:58 PM (#3411872)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST

What do you class as accompanists

29 Sep 12 - 05:53 PM (#3411892)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Jack Campin

Dick has started this thread as a way of importing an argument that started in TheSession. It got fairly acrimonious, which is why Jeremy has deleted it.

It's yet another occasion when Dick is importing a grudge from aomewhere else and hoping somebody will agree with a position he got trounced for advocating over there.

What Dick is objecting to is a point made at length by Michael Gill there, that in an Irish session, no amount of ingenuity in an accompaniment can do anything to improve the performance of a melody. It may have other desirable effects on the performance as a whole, but how well the melody comes across is solely the result of what the melody players put into it.

Which seems to me to be pretty much right for most Irish session music. If there are exceptions, I don't recall Dick providing them.

I wouldn't make the same argument for Scottish session tunes, which often come out of the danceband tradition where the harmonic and rhythmic backing may be conceived as a unit with the tune.

29 Sep 12 - 07:01 PM (#3411916)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Manitas_at_home

They certainly can full stop.

29 Sep 12 - 08:43 PM (#3411943)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Bobert

Yes, it can...

However, if the piece is hopelessly flawed than there's not much that can be done to change that...

B~

29 Sep 12 - 09:12 PM (#3411949)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,Stim

Given that this is another forum, with another constituency, whatever may have moved Dick to begin it, it seems to me that it is a new discussion, free to move whither it may. Though the eminent Mr. Campin may not have intended to, by providing the cogent points from the discussion in the other forum, he has pretty much collaborated in it continuing it here.

For myself, I rather lean toward the argument that, regardless of the musical genre, when a melody is propounded, the whole point of an accompaniment it to enhance it. I must also be considered that it is possible to accompany by playing the melody.

Given that, I must admit that I am amused by Master Jack's comment that "in an Irish session, no amount of ingenuity in an accompaniment can do anything to improve the performance of a melody."

29 Sep 12 - 09:36 PM (#3411955)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Don Firth

If an accompaniment is well conceived, it cannot enhance the melody as such (the melody is what it is), but it can enhance the whole performance. It acts in the same way that a setting does for a jewel or a frame does for a painting.

But it should not overpower the song or detract (distract) from it. If someone looks at a painting, then thinks "What a nice frame!" then the frame has failed in its function. Same thing with the song and the accompaniment.

The word itself says it. It's an accompaniment.

Don Firth

30 Sep 12 - 01:34 AM (#3411993)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: michaelr

Irish tunes - which I suppose Dick is talking about - are open to many different accompaniments, limited only by the accompanist's harmonic imagination and skill. Purists will keep claiming that they should not be accompanied at all (except in unison), but they have been left far behind by developments in the past 50-80 years. Just ask Donal Lunny.

Making the tunes interesting to a broader, international audience has been possible through the development of more intriguing orchestration such as Mr Lunny has been perpetrating for some decades now, with bands such as The Bothy Band, Planxty, Moving Hearts and Coolfin. The naysayers are clearly left in the dust - or the museum, as it were.

30 Sep 12 - 04:26 AM (#3412012)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle

Its a matter of judgement. And your judgement gets better as you get older. I play rhythm guitar in Irish music sessions quite often.. Obviously there are pieces in which a meretricious guitar player is quite out of place and will detract from the piece - so if you're experienced enough - you shut up.

Other pieces will take all the flash you can flaunt, and then some.

30 Sep 12 - 05:20 AM (#3412019)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: treewind

Of course they can lift it, but they they can't half drag it down too sometimes!

30 Sep 12 - 05:29 AM (#3412022)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Leadfingers

It ALL depends on the musicians - The OLD Oyster band was very good band , but were definately lifted when Ashley H came in on bass after a few bars ! And I have seen a VERY desultary Irish tune session lifted by the inclusion of a visiting guitarst .
At the same time , as ststed above , the accompanist can drag a session down .

30 Sep 12 - 05:57 AM (#3412033)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Jack Campin

I am amused by Master Jack's comment that "in an Irish session, no amount of ingenuity in an accompaniment can do anything to improve the performance of a melody."

It wasn't my comment - I was simply citing Michael. He has often said that in Irish traditional music, the melody is all that matters, and the presence of guitarists or bodhran owners can only obscure it. I don't entirely agree, but he's more right than wrong.

30 Sep 12 - 06:34 AM (#3412044)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

no, I only wished to get different opinions, I made no reference to any specific discussion elsewhere.
if steve shaw and jack campin bring in a different discussion that is their doing and their problem, mean while can we discuss this without reference to the other discussion, Iwould appreciate that, thankyou.

30 Sep 12 - 06:40 AM (#3412046)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

The discussion is still going on over there as I type this (DADGAD thread, started on Sept. 26). The only difference here is that Dick knows he can post without fear of Michael putting him right. That's all, folks.

30 Sep 12 - 08:56 AM (#3412091)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

well, Steve that is a matter of opinion, I happen to think, THAT GUITAR ACCOMPANIMENT when done well lifts the music.
I used to gig with a guy called Patrick Forester who was an excellent accompanist he also played with Jim Bainbridge, his guitar accompaniments were excellent and really did lift the music, I have also been accompanied by Martin Carthy, Jez Lowe, and Richard Grainger, all of whom added to the overall sound. I have also had to suffer in sessions, guitarists who did not listen and who should not have been playing because they were unfamiliar with the tune and the key.

30 Sep 12 - 09:08 AM (#3412098)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

Jack, music is music, whether it is Scottish or Irish, may of the irish reels came from scottish tunes as you well know, so if you reckon that scottish music is ok to accompany, then logically tunes such as miss mcleods reel, musical priest, Iam afraid your argument is nosensical because a good proportion of irish tunes were originally scottish.furthermore you are way off beam with some of your other comments the thread has not been deleted neither has nmy point of view been trounced, in fact i have just trounced your point that IRISH TUNES ARE SOMEHOW DIFFERENT,they are not because many of them were Scottish to start with.Check mate.

30 Sep 12 - 09:29 AM (#3412100)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

Donegal highlands[may of which were originally strathspeys and donegal music has had a big scottish influence, so JACK are you advocating that its ok for guitarists to accompany donegal music because it i influenced by Scotland, and presumably Mazurkas are ok because they originate for continental europe, along with Sliabh luchra polkas and slides.
I know of one slide that is in fact a version of the jenny lind polka, which is not a tune of Irish origin.
Jack your argument is ridiculous, there is no such thing as pure irish music, a sizeable proprtion of the reels came from Scotland as did the highlands, the mazurkas came from europe, music is international. to say it is ok to accompany scots music but not irish music. is illogical, because much of the music is the same.
even O Carolan, whose music is fairly old and often considered irish, met other musicians from different countries, and his harp tunes are frequently accompanied and on occasions, his tunes[ or did they originate in a foreign country and he claimed them] turn up in different traditions, are you saying that o carolans tunes should only be played in a linear way without chords?.
Jack your argumrnt has the logic of the mad hatters tea party

30 Sep 12 - 10:26 AM (#3412119)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

here are another couple of examples, money musk composed as scottish strathspey, played in ireland and america as a reel, so do we allow scottish and american tradtions to accompany but prevent irish players from doing so, I have never heard anything so daft.
the green fields of america [irish reel], turns up in appalachia as mother flanagan, like wise the teetotaller.
music is international ,jack campin can go around putting forward his proposotions, that scottish music can be accompanied, but irish music not, but.. musicians wherever they are will play a tune on its merits not its origins, and rightly so, because JACKS proposition is not logical

30 Sep 12 - 11:32 AM (#3412151)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

Well I've read Jack's response and it seems to me that you're responding to someone else entirely. Jack does not appear to have spoken the words you've put in his mouth.

Puzzled of Bude

30 Sep 12 - 11:49 AM (#3412158)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Peter the Squeezer

Generally (not just in folk / trad) it depends on two things -

a) the nature of the item being performed, and

b) the ability of the accompanist.

Accompaniment is a talent possessed by few musicians. It takes skill to support a soloist without drowning them out.

30 Sep 12 - 12:47 PM (#3412177)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle

Peter the Squeezer - I bet he does a good spot.....!

30 Sep 12 - 01:16 PM (#3412184)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

steve shaw. if you cant read go to specsavers,

30 Sep 12 - 01:39 PM (#3412187)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

What Jack said is full of caveats, Dick, but, as ever, you only see black and white (maybe Specsavers can fix it for you).

It may have other desirable effects on the performance as a whole...

right for most Irish session music

...and so on for the references to Scottish tunes.

Hurry up and post, Jack, to say to me "Leave it, Steve, he's not worth it..."

30 Sep 12 - 01:57 PM (#3412196)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

Steve, he says
I wouldn't make the same argument for Scottish session tunes, which often come out of the danceband tradition where the harmonic and rhythmic backing may be conceived as a unit with the tune.
well a lot of them are the same tunes.
Steve , your remarks and your persistent personal attacks reflect poorly upon yourself, give it a break, you have accused me of being dishonest, when i never mentioned the session discussion, both you and Jack clearly have axes to grind, can the rest of us discuss this without your unpleasant comments, in other words get off my back.

30 Sep 12 - 01:57 PM (#3412197)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,sturgeon

there is no such thing as pure irish music

Come and tell us that down in Connemara,Schweik!

30 Sep 12 - 02:30 PM (#3412213)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

it is fact, sturgeon, all musicians are influenced by other sources even o carolan, plus, within irish music there are many different regional styles, for example donegal, which is heavily influenced by scottish music.
another example are a lot of the long dances such as haymakers which are very similiar to english long dances, Sturgeon I am not afraid of speaking the truth anywhere including Connemara, HARDLY SURPRISING,since Ireland was under English rule for centuries.

30 Sep 12 - 02:35 PM (#3412215)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,sturgeon

You've thoroughly missed my point.

You wrote that there is no such thing as pure Irish music.

So what do you make of all our grand Connemara airs?

30 Sep 12 - 03:16 PM (#3412225)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Stanron

I've come a bit late to this discussion but I'll start with saying that anyone who disagrees with Mr Gill has me on his side automatically. If the unpleasantness of said Mr Gs comments were intended to see off the riff raff he certainly succeeded with me.

Having said that an unaccompanied tune played well is a thing of beauty and obviously stands up well as it is. No one will ever know if it could have been improved with another s playing once the moment has gone.

I'm a guitar player and about 15 years ago I spent about 6 months devising and learning to play an instrumental section in the middle of a Jimmy Rodgers song. 6 months! I finally felt up to trying it in a session and someone picked up a 12 string and joined in with the wrong chords. Hi Ho.

30 Sep 12 - 03:16 PM (#3412227)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,kenny

I would never presume to tell any Irish traditional musician that "there is no such thing as pure Irish music". Try telling that to Seamus Tansey or Tony McMahon.

30 Sep 12 - 03:17 PM (#3412229)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle

So right Sturgeon!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1TdAeDO-QU

30 Sep 12 - 03:32 PM (#3412235)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,sturgeon

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Q3qerOdvVU&feature=related

30 Sep 12 - 03:34 PM (#3412236)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

The idea that you can improve a tune by adding accompaniment is perfectly ridiculous. And pompous to boot. Arrogant even. You can embellish, surround it with harmony, make an arrangement with the tune embedded... but you can't "improve" the tune. You might well come up with something very agreeable. I love all my old Planxty and Bothy Band stuff. But you can't improve a tune. Unless you change the tune, and even then you probably won't be improving it. Bach wrote six lots of tunes for unaccompanied cello, and a good few more for unaccompanied fiddle. I'd love to witness some of these tune-improving strummers having a go at "improving" 'em!

30 Sep 12 - 04:02 PM (#3412246)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle

a tune improving strummer - a genius devoid of pretentiousness and pomposity

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDWeCv0m-3s

30 Sep 12 - 04:31 PM (#3412255)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

I think Tony McMahon would agree with me, furthermore unlike anyone else on this thread i have given examples of tunes borrowed from other traditions, because tunes are borrowed it does not mean that the music is inferior in any way.
Steve Shaw, irish tunes which happen to be music as are scottish tunes music can be improve with good accompaniment,that does not mean that they cannot be played well without accompaniment, of course they can, and of course they are better without accompanimnt than with a guitarist or accompanist who is not familiar with the tunes who plays the wrong chordsand is not listening carefully to the melody players. but good accompaniment can add to the music

30 Sep 12 - 04:52 PM (#3412261)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

I think I just told you how much I love my old Bothy Band and Planxty stuff.

30 Sep 12 - 05:50 PM (#3412275)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Jack Campin

Thanks to Steve for pointing out that the thread in question was still there:

TheSession on DADGAD

(My contribution to it was fairly minimal, not disagreeing with anybody, and I don't feel any urge to contribute any more).

30 Sep 12 - 05:53 PM (#3412276)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: MartinRyan

can accompanists lift the music?

Of course - so what?

can accompanists kill the music?

Of course - so what?

Regards

30 Sep 12 - 08:01 PM (#3412323)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Stanron

I just followed the link to the Session thread. I got about halfway down before losing the will to live. There's lots of good advice for the original poster. Perhaps too much.

I spent a large part of my playing career accompanying others. I enjoyed it. I also enjoy one person playing well.

So what?

It's music stupid!
Far more important than football.

30 Sep 12 - 08:06 PM (#3412326)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

No it isn't. Jeez, have you never heard of Liverpool FC??

30 Sep 12 - 08:19 PM (#3412339)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle

I think I disagree with everybody.

A good rhythm player can anticipate the bum notes by the vocalist and/or soloist and can make it sound pretty good. In fact that's your job. Eddie Condon, the famous jazz banjo/guitar player said the rhythm player should be felt rather than heard. A good accompanist can sense the technical limitations of the soloist - and help them occupy the space he or she desires.

If you're experience is different like the guy in Sturgeon's video, whos finger is being held . Well that's one kind of music - its not exactly the generality of things even in folk music.

30 Sep 12 - 08:26 PM (#3412342)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Stanron

Steve Shaw

Actually I was born in Wallasey so perhaps I'm immune.

I used to attend a lovely session in a Pub called the Salutation in Manchester. At least it was a lovely session until they invented wide screen pub TV. A first I kind of enjoyed when the football fans came in and asked us to play quieter cos the couldn't hear the football. Later on it took an uglier turn. One of the ffs was conducting a collection for something or other and one young lady put no money in. He broke her bow.

As far as I am concerned football is todays equivalent to Satan's apple. Only fools and Harlots partake. But then again that's just me.

01 Oct 12 - 05:50 AM (#3412450)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle

Actually Browni McGhee put it better than me.

he said, 'Two wrongs can make a right. If you hear the other guy make a mistake and you play round it - it can work out sounding better than if you'd both played it right.'

01 Oct 12 - 06:14 AM (#3412459)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

Thanks to Steve for pointing out that the thread in question was still there:

TheSession on DADGAD

(My contribution to it was fairly minimal, not disagreeing with anybody, and I don't feel any urge to contribute any more)."
hardly surprising, you know full well that a proportion of irish music is derived from scottish tunes, which makes your statement about it being ok to accompany scottish tunes but not irish tunes ,ridiculous, because the two traditions share a lot of tunes in common.

01 Oct 12 - 07:32 AM (#3412477)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

If you repeat an untruth enough times it becomes true. Is that what you think, Dick?

01 Oct 12 - 08:17 AM (#3412489)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,Al whittle

you lost me there steve, which untruth would that be?

01 Oct 12 - 08:26 AM (#3412493)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

I pointed out in my 1.39 pm post yesterday that the words ascribed to Jack by Dick did not represent what Jack was saying. Try to keep up, Al.

01 Oct 12 - 09:11 AM (#3412514)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: John P

The idea that you can improve a tune by adding accompaniment is perfectly ridiculous.

As has been noted a few times already in this thread, it all depends on the ability of the musicians. I can, in fact, make a mediocre melody player sound better than s/he can make themselves sound. Melody players who lack advanced skills and experience often put forth a flurry of notes which, even if they are in the proper time, often don't communicate the rhythm adequately. The underlying throb isn't there. I can fix that.

With a good player or a bad player, I can accompany dance tunes in such a way that the accents and melodic lifts in the music that correspond to the footwork of the dancers are enhanced.

As has also been noted, it all depends on what you want, just the melody or the whole sound of the performance. Someone trying to rock out on Irish tunes without an accompanist is probably going to a lot like someone not trying to rock out on Irish tunes. If power and rhythm is what you're looking for, a good accompanist is a good thing. Or, for that matter, if what you want is a light classical feel, the accompanist can greatly enhance that. Or maybe you want a jazz feel, or a country/western feel . . .

01 Oct 12 - 09:26 AM (#3412520)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

JACKS WORDS.

so jack is agreeing with michael and adding nonsense abut scottish music., when he knows full well that many of the tunes are the same
Steve, stop wasting everyones time.

since jack and you have brought Gill into the matter
michael gills postThis is a clear case of something I've mentioned before. Guitar players are, without exception, more interested in the guitar itself than with music.

"I'm desperately looking for some guidance in making the transition into being a session guitarist"

"I want to be a functioning (and later bloody decent)session player and having watched some folk guitarists in sessions, I have no doubt that my fingers are mechanically capable of doing what they have to do"

"Which chord shapes should one start with?"

Guitar guitar guitar guitar guitar.

"It's exactly that type of strumming-DADGAD-chords-dancing-around-the fretboard that I'm aiming for"

Guitar guitar guitar guitar guitar.

Not once has he mentioned the tunes. Not once.

Oh no ... hang on ... he did mention the tunes once:

"Luckily for guitarists, the rules of the session I attend are clear and melody-purists are in the minority."

Say it all.
Skreech, you will understand it when you realise that guitarists are really just percussionistsYes. the tunes don't "have" chords. Sure, you can play chords with them, but the distinction between the two is absolutely vital.

Yes, some tunes have runs in them that are common chord triads, but to make the extension of suggesting that "the" chord that is that triad is, therefor, "the" chord for that bit of the tune is indeed a misunderstanding of the genre.

# Posted on September 28th 2012 by Michael GillRe: DADGAD/session guitar advice urgently needed!!!!!

Oddly Jim, for some reason, the "without exception" rule only applies to guitar players. However, there are players of other instruments who are more interested in their instrument than music itself ... as you yourself, of course, are well aware.

# Posted on September 28th 2012 by Michael GillRe: DADGAD/session guitar advice urgently needed!!!!!

" it is incorrect to harmonise it with anything else but a d major chord"

I didn't expect you to understand.

# Posted on September 29th 2012 by Michael GillRe: DADGAD/session guitar advice urgently needed!!!!!

Al, I wasn't setting up a negative stereotype of accompanists. I was talking about guitar players.

# Posted on September 29th 2012 by Michael GillRe: DADGAD/session guitar advice urgently needed!!!!!

gingerbreadjuan, Are yo interested in playing this music, or playing the guitar?

# Posted on October 1st 2012 by Michael Gill Re: DADGAD/session guitar advice urgently needed!!!!!

gingerbreadjuan, Are yo interested in playing this music, or playing the guitar?

# Posted on October 1st 2012 by Michael GillRe: DADGAD/session guitar advice urgently needed!!!!!

Oddly Jim, for some reason, the "without exception" rule only applies to guitar players. However, there are players of other instruments who are more interested in their instrument than music itself ... as you yourself, of course, are well aware.

# Posted on September 28th 2012 by Michael GillRe: DADGAD/session guitar advice urgently needed!!!!!

Yes. the tunes don't "have" chords. Sure, you can play chords with them, but the distinction between the two is absolutely vital.

Yes, some tunes have runs in them that are common chord triads, but to make the extension of suggesting that "the" chord that is that triad is, therefor, "the" chord for that bit of the tune is indeed a misunderstanding of the genre.

# Posted on September 28th 2012 by Michael GillRe: DADGAD/session guitar advice urgently needed!!!!!

Segovia was one of the worst offenders.

I remember when I was a kid liking a popular little tune he played on one of my dad's records, a tune simply called Tango, by Albéniz.

I always thought it was a guitar tune. But then one day I heard it on the piano. Wow.

# Posted on September 28th 2012 by Michael Gill
every single one of Michaels posts, not once has he said what Jack claims he was saying.
Furthermore INEVER BROUGHT HIM INTO THE DISCUSSION, jaack campin, did that and apart from being wrong about the thread being deleted and my motives for wishing to discuss this on this forum, he claims Michael said something which in fact he never said,

01 Oct 12 - 09:30 AM (#3412523)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

Michael Gill never said that, JACK CAMPIN CLAIMS HE SAID IT BUT HE DID NOT.
Steve, stop wasting everyones time, with your ridiculous liesand start reading properly, oh and stop being so patronising

01 Oct 12 - 10:01 AM (#3412530)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST

Shrek, I think you are starting to lose the plot

01 Oct 12 - 10:02 AM (#3412531)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle

its all abit confusing!

if you want to be a session player - can I recommend Alistair russell's insruction dvd on celtic accompaniment? Its a good starting off place.

If you don't want accompaniment, it as well to tell everybody at the session - that's what they've bought their instruments for. Most people respect that some people don't want accompaniment.

I'm sure no one would wilfully misrepresnt someone else's view - least of all GSS - who is a good egg.

01 Oct 12 - 10:19 AM (#3412538)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Stanron

I'm mildly amused by the idea that traditional tunes don't contain chords. A tune most players will be familiar with is Soldiers Joy. The first part is a series of arpeggios through the notes of a D chord with a couple of quick excursions to notes from A7. With the exception of a couple of notes in the upbeats it's all chordal. The second part has more passing notes but they are always between obviously chordal notes. I'm betting there is no shortage of other examples.

01 Oct 12 - 10:36 AM (#3412545)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: John P

Yes, most melodies have implied harmonic structure. What is more true, perhaps, is that many traditional tunes don't have a chord pattern. The accompanist does have to follow the structure of the tune. That being said, lots of tunes do have patterns. There's about 100 Em reels that all have the same chords, all in the same places.

Trying to make rules about what is or isn't included in the performance of traditional music is a very difficult undertaking. I don't think anyone will ever be successful at it, since there is no consensus amongst the traditional music practitioners. Perhaps the only rule should be "Don't tell others they are doing it wrong."

01 Oct 12 - 12:36 PM (#3412595)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,Stim

One has to remember that a certain type of accompaniment may be harmonically appropriate, but still may not fit the style of music you are trying to playing, or the tastes of the people you are playing it with. This fits under the category of being "socially inappropriate", and can cause lots of problems.

01 Oct 12 - 12:40 PM (#3412598)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

I am annoyed, Steve Shaw and Jack Campin, have come on to this thread made false accusations, and claimed Michael Gill, said things that he did not, then brought in complete irelevancies, a couple of time wasting trolls.

01 Oct 12 - 02:14 PM (#3412635)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: johncharles

off to play guitar in slow session, comprising mainly fiddlers. Four chords usually more than enough. Obviously should another guitarist turn up I will have to shoot Him/Her to prevent any accompanist discord.
john.

01 Oct 12 - 07:03 PM (#3412741)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

Stanron is incorrect in saying that tunes have chords, whereas John has it right when he says that tunes have implied harmony. The thing about that implied harmony is that it is in your head. Listen to those Bach cello suites, mostly single lines of melody (OK, with double-stopping in some places). Your head is full of harmony as you listen. You can hardly help it. As a chord is several notes played together, a tune can't have chords. Of course, tunes entirely without bits of arpeggios are hardly possible, and they may suggest harmony inside your head, but that is not the same thing as saying that tunes have chords.

And tunes have bits of scales too. Which is why traditional musicians don't have to worry about practising arpeggios and scales. You're practising arpeggios and scales when you play tunes anyway, and having a lot more fun to boot.

01 Oct 12 - 07:05 PM (#3412742)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

And stop sending me unpleasant private messages, please, Dick. If you do it again they'll come up here.

01 Oct 12 - 08:29 PM (#3412782)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

here is the private message, nothing i have not said already on this thread.
here is the message you are objecting to, a repeat of what i have said publicly
Message:
you are an unpleasant troll, michael gill never said what jack campin claimed he said, get off my back.

02 Oct 12 - 12:50 AM (#3412868)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,Stim

With some trepidatation, I feel compelled to cast my lot with Stanron and take exception Steve Shaw's assertion about chords. They can occur either vertically (which is to say, by sounding at the same time) or horizontally, (which is to say, sounding one after another). The tune has chords either way.

02 Oct 12 - 02:40 AM (#3412886)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Jim Carroll

"can accompanists kill the music? Of course - so what?"
Says it all really.
As far as accompanying traditional singing is concerned, when an accompanist forgets that his/her job is to do just that - accompany, they can, and often do, sink a song deeper than the Titanic.
IMO, it is the function of an instrument to create a situation where a singer can interpret the song freely to an appropriate backdrop - get the balance wrong and it becomes either intrusive or unneccessary.
Jim Carroll

02 Oct 12 - 06:27 AM (#3412937)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

"Take exception"? Why not just disagree? Well I disagree with you. A chord is several notes sounded together, not "one after another." That's an arpeggio, old chap. A bit of an arpeggio in a tune (even two notes of what would be a chord, but played one after the other) can indeed suggest harmony to you. In your head. There would be several possible potential harmonies in many/most cases, but they are not part of the tune. They could form part of an arrangement which includes the tune. Perhaps you're a session strummer who's feeling a little got at.

02 Oct 12 - 08:11 AM (#3412975)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

rubbish , a chord can be three notes sounded one after another, while the other notes are held on, a very common practice on the concertina piano, organ etc.
you really are ignorant., as well as being patronising, there is no need to call anyone, old chap.

02 Oct 12 - 09:31 AM (#3413013)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: johncharles

An arpeggio (plural arpeggi or arpeggios) is a musical technique where notes in a chord are played or sung in sequence, one after the other, rather than ringing out simultaneously. This word comes from the Italian word "arpeggiare", which means "to play on a harp." An alternate translation of this term is "broken chord."

Arpeggios allow monophonic instruments to play chords and harmony and help create rhythmic interest.
john

02 Oct 12 - 10:35 AM (#3413043)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Stanron

For Steve Shaw

Google 'arpeggio define'

The first two replies are;

freedictionary.com
1. The sounding of the tones of a chord in rapid succession rather than simultaneously.
2. A chord played or sung in this manner.

dictionary.reference.com
1. the sounding of the notes of a chord in rapid succession instead of simultaneously.
2. a chord thus sounded.

If you don't like these It's OK by me for you to invent your own.

02 Oct 12 - 11:10 AM (#3413069)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Tootler

From the Oxford Concise Dictionary of Music:

A chord 'spread', ie the notes played from the bottom upwards or sometimes from the top downwards as on the harp.

If you play the notes of a chord successively in some other pattern it's called a broken Chord.

From the OCDM: A chord where the notes are played one after the other or a group followed by another group instead of simultaneously.

So, Steve, Stanron was in fact correct in his assertion that tunes have chords.

02 Oct 12 - 11:16 AM (#3413076)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Tootler

I'm more that a little annoyed with Jack for back referencing to the Session. The result has been that the thread has turned into a slanging match rather than a rational discussion about the role of accompaniment which it had the potential to be.

02 Oct 12 - 11:38 AM (#3413102)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Elmore

What could have been an interesting thread seems to have become a nasty, unpleasant exercise in egocentricity.

02 Oct 12 - 12:04 PM (#3413122)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

and the whole point is that I never mentioned the session, and michael gill never said what jack campin claimed, jack and steve have just been trolling and flaming

02 Oct 12 - 12:22 PM (#3413134)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: MartinRyan

and the whole point is that I never mentioned the session, and michael gill never said what jack campin claimed, jack and steve have just been trolling and flaming

As we say in Ireland (as you know) - "They're only trottin' after ye!"

Regards

02 Oct 12 - 03:45 PM (#3413230)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,Stim

Or, perhaps, Steve, I have studied music and composition in some measure, and am merely trying to clarify a misunderstanding. We'll never really know...

02 Oct 12 - 03:52 PM (#3413238)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

the gaberdine swine, trotting, rather like the unspeakable pursuing the uneatable, to quote oscar wilde, still I dont suppose steve shaw and jack campin would appreciate OSCARS comment

02 Oct 12 - 06:53 PM (#3413312)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

If you play the notes of a chord one after the other with the earlier notes held, then of course it's a bloody chord! You can hear all three notes sounding at once. A chord. But if you play three notes of what would be chord, staccato, one after the other, or on an instrument that does not sustain the earlier notes, you are playing a single line of melody. Not a chord. I don't care whether you call it an arpeggio, a broken chord or Spot The Bloody Dog, a chord it is not. I'm so happy to clarify this for the silly sods who don't appear to get it, in particular Professor "Don't you know who I am?" Stim. And for Tootler, whose explanation above is, er, as clear as mud. I now have to ask myself whether I shall continue to allow a bunch of twits spoil my beautiful day...

02 Oct 12 - 07:08 PM (#3413318)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,999

This thread reminds me of this scene from the movie "Cool Hand Luke."

02 Oct 12 - 07:08 PM (#3413319)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: mugwumps

Why are orchestras popular? Why do record producers hire arrangers and studio musicians when they want a hit? Why do they use backup singers when they want a rousing chorus without raising the volume?
There are big name bands who make their living trying to play louder than their mates, but if you want to be popular, the main instrument, voice or other, must be right up front.
Still, who are these prima donnas who think they can't be improved upon? And where did all these off topic, hate Dick trolls come from?

02 Oct 12 - 08:44 PM (#3413372)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

Are you Dick's uncle?

02 Oct 12 - 09:06 PM (#3413381)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

I'm more that a little annoyed with Jack for back referencing to the Session. The result has been that the thread has turned into a slanging match rather than a rational discussion about the role of accompaniment which it had the potential to be.

Well, you're annoyed with the wrong person. The real "back-referencing" to the Session is glaringly obvious to those of us who contribute to both sites. Dick did what Dick has done before. He has form. He brings the ding-dongs he partakes in, and loses, from there to here. We know what he's up to even if you can't see it. Open your eyes.

02 Oct 12 - 09:23 PM (#3413386)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Don Firth

This could have been a fairly informative thread, but it's degenerated into sumpin' rilly stoopud.

Whasamatayouguys!??

Don Firth

03 Oct 12 - 12:47 AM (#3413426)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Joe Offer

Dick, you posted the same message from Jack Campin three times, and Jack himself posted it once in this thread. But the way you posted Jack's message, it was hard to tell what were Jack's words and what were yours. I attempted to pick out Jack's words and indent them. I hope I did it right. Doesn't seem to me that you should need to post the text of somebody's post a second time in a thread, not to mention a third and a fourth time. A summary of the general idea of the post you're responding to, should suffice - or just give the name of the poster and the date and time he/she posted.

-Joe-

03 Oct 12 - 05:20 AM (#3413498)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill

yes, this could have been interesting ... if it wasn't for that twat.

So, for the record, what I said was:

"Of course accompaniment can lift the music, in many ways. But the only way it can lift the actual tune is by lifting the tune player i.e. indirectly. What accompaniment will always do, however, is obscure the tune. So it's a trade off. Can the accompanist lift the tune player enough to outweigh the obscuring? It's a big ask."

Anyway, I know it's just semantics, but the distinction between what the OCDM calls a chord and a "broken" chord interests me. One of the enduring qualities of tradition Irish dance tunes is their often harmonic ambiguity. I've never thought of it this way, but it's as if the harmony is broken.

So the accompanist must be aware of the ways they obscure the tune. Firstly, and most obviously, by simply making noises that aren't the tune. Secondly, and more subtly yet more damaging, by "fixing" the broken harmony. I use the word "fixing" as two of its definitions:
Fixing as in "mending". A tune's harmonic ambiguity does not ask to be mended. If you mend it , you loose a lot of it's beauty.
Fixing as in sticking. for example, fixing a bracket to a wall. A players ability to play harmonic and rhythmic variations is severely hindered when the tune is fixed to a wall.

listen to this fella.
A "must buy" CD for anyone who likes diddley music. Especially strummers.

http://macdara.bandcamp.com/album/ego-trip

03 Oct 12 - 05:26 AM (#3413502)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

Don, the thread hasn't got a chance when it is conceived in such a dishonest manner. Dick hates Michael, Jack and me and he knows that two of us are here as well as on The Session. He brings his spats over here when he isn't getting anywhere over there because he knows that, at least, Michael isn't here. He's done it before. Try 23 September 2011, the thread "Is English traditional music rubbish?" And, to be honest, this topic has been done to death here, there and everywhere that traditional music is discussed in any case. There will be older threads I'm sure if you wish to resurrect one. I can't be arsed to look.

03 Oct 12 - 05:28 AM (#3413506)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

Michael wasn't here. :-)

03 Oct 12 - 09:27 AM (#3413614)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Stanron

GUEST,michael gill

I agree with you that harmonic ambiguity is a pleasing characteristic of traditional tunes. I try to incorporate harmonic ambiguity into most of the music I play. It's polar opposite can be found in most modern jazz and always has me lurching towards the off switch.

I've posted before that I enjoy hearing a well played tune without accompaniment. I also believe that good accompaniment can add to the musical experience. It doesn't need to be chords or chord sequences. Enhancing the overall musical experience does not require the melody itself to change, but do you deny that some of the best players, accompanied or not change the melody as they play it?

03 Oct 12 - 09:36 AM (#3413616)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Stanron

I meant to add to my last post that what makes the good players good is the range of subtle variations to the melody and the rhythm that they bring to the tune. It is very easy for these subtleties to be overwhelmed and obscured by inappropriate accompaniment, chordal or melodic. You really only hear these players at their best on their own or with one accompanist who really knows his stuff. To try and recreate those conditions in a session is at best wishful thinking

03 Oct 12 - 09:40 AM (#3413618)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Jim Carroll

Maybe a way to describe good accompaniment is 'you don't notice it's there but you'd miss it if it wasn't'
Personally, I've become very tired of ego-tripping wannabe Segovias getting between good songs and ballads and the listener
Jim Carroll

03 Oct 12 - 09:42 AM (#3413619)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

Accompanists [imo] can lift the music.
Every body can see who brought the other discussion here and it was not me.
I do not hate anybody, I disagree with some of the other posters.
I wanted to discuss this subject with different people, not Michael Gill, I know his opinions which I disagree with,I can discuss anything with him on the session if i wish to,
Because I disagree with someone it does not mean I hate them.

03 Oct 12 - 10:00 AM (#3413630)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST

Listen to this , cause I can hear melody, accompaniment, arpeggios, chords all part of a coherent whole. Nice music

Stu

03 Oct 12 - 10:17 AM (#3413640)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,Mooh

I get calls to accompany, on guitar, singers and melody instrumentalists. It helps them keep time, pitch, confidence, and fills out arrangements. Performed with some feeling it will lift the music. My role in duos I work with is to make the other half sound good. If they do, I do. Win win.

Peace, Mooh.

03 Oct 12 - 10:37 AM (#3413650)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

I have never once yet needed an accompanist to help me keep time. The idea that accompanists are somehow intrinsically better than melody players at keeping time is, frankly, risible. And Jim, do tell him. Good singers don't need you to keep pitch either. And the concept of "filling out" a good tune or song fills me with horror.

03 Oct 12 - 10:54 AM (#3413658)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Jack Campin

What is that dumbed-down harp arrangement of the Pachelbel Canon supposed to show? It's a contrapuntal piece, not a single-line melody (still less a folk tune), and the harp arrangement leaves out most of the interesting stuff.

This is more like it:

Voices of Music

03 Oct 12 - 10:55 AM (#3413660)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

The Burnt Old Man (The Campbells Are Coming)
The Hair Fell Off Me Coconut(Wi' A Hundred Pipers )
Lord McDonald's
My Mary Ann (The Fife Hunt)
The Dogs Among The Bushes (Atholl Brose)
The Farewell to Ireland (The Highlander's Farewell To Ireland)
Lady Ann Montgomery
The Tarbolton (Tarbolton House)
The Boyne Hunt (The Perthshire Hunt)
The Mason's Apron
Mac's Fancy (McDonald of the Isles March to Harlaw)
Rakish Paddy (Cabar Feidh)
The Linen Cap (The Honourable Mrs. Moll's)
The Flogging (The Flagon)
The Farewell to Whisk(e)y
The Lakes of Sligo (The Lass O' Gowrie)
some more tunes that were originally scottish and have become part of the irish repertoire.
Good singers don't need you to keep pitch either". quote steve shaw
good singers can be good singers but their pitch can also fall a quarter of a tone or even a semitone during performance, that does not mean that they are not good singers., so yes a fixed instrument or a guitar can help someone to keep their original pitch, if that is what the singer desires.
Steve , this is the second comment you have made that shows your ignorance, the first one was about chords and was nonsense.
a good accompanist listens to the singer carefully and accompanies the same applies to accompanying tunes.
and yes I do know a lot about singing

03 Oct 12 - 11:24 AM (#3413679)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill

Mr Miles old chap. why did you list those tunes? Other than to bing thesession.org here?
see http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/30657
You are such a transparent, grudge-holding twerp.

And surely, if the argument about accompanists comes down to them helping singers or tune players who aren't very good, then very thin that argument is indeed.

Anyway, seeings as I began my post above with "Of course accompaniment can lift the music" and you then say, "I wanted to discuss this subject with different people, not Michael Gill, I know his opinions which I disagree with", you are again transparently showing your grudge-holding twerpishness. I haven't actually said anything you disagree with.

Who, other than a twerp would end a post with "check mate"?

I feel sorry for the folk who do want to discuss this.

03 Oct 12 - 11:39 AM (#3413690)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: MikeL2

hi Jim

<" 'you don't notice it's there but you'd miss it if it wasn't'">

I couldn't agree more.

Like myself and most musicians I know or have known (regardless of instrument, )have acted as accompanists. We do it to try to help improve the performance of the music. Most of the ones I have known know when the accompaniment improves the performance - if not they don't play.

As you say Jim good musicians do not try to hog the limelight or to drown out the "soloist(s)".

cheers

MikeL2

03 Oct 12 - 11:57 AM (#3413703)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Jack Campin

Yep. What is a list of tunes ranging from the 15th to the 19th century in origin supposed to show? At least one of them was probably common to Irish and Scottish tradition before it was first written down, and it was sheer fluke that it happened to be written down in Scotland first.

Some on that list were first intended for the Highland pipes, some for solo fiddle, some for fiddle and bass, some for the keyboard - is their origin supposed to dictate a "correct" approach to arrangement? (If so, it would obviously help to know which is which, but Dick isn't asking that).

the gaberdine swine

Now that is a Freudian slip with some really interesting implications.

03 Oct 12 - 12:45 PM (#3413721)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

"I feel sorry for the folk who do want to discuss this"
then leave the discussion, stop trolling and calling me names and let other people discuss it,the same remark applies to Steve Shaw, who has also been trolling.
I have had a lot of experience of accompanying music and in my opinion a good accompanist can lift a tune and a song., a bad accompanist can wreck it.

03 Oct 12 - 12:55 PM (#3413725)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

Dick, old chap, making music is about making music, a collaborative thing if more than one person is playing. If the role of an accompanist is to make the singer keep pitch or melody player to keep time, then good music is not being made. Well, it may be good music in certain contexts, a teacher teaching a kid grade 3 fiddle perhaps, or Gareth Malone succeeding in getting a big fat postman to hold more than a note or two. But, generally, if you are having to strive to keep someone else in time or pitch, it's crap innit. We've all been there. It is not your role. It's your role to listen and make hundreds of tiny decisions in your own playing every minute, derived from your listening, and that goes for singers/melody players/accompanists in equal measure. Add a task on top of that, like keeping someone else in pitch or time, and the whole thing stops being good music and becomes one big tribulation. And it shows to the listeners and it feels horrible for the players. Except for crap players, who probably think it's great.

03 Oct 12 - 12:55 PM (#3413726)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,sphincter

From Dick Miles's biog on The Session - 'Ignore all remarks made by Michael Gill.'

I bet Dick's going to spend the whole night worrying about the difference between Gadarene and gaberdine. I'll get my coat, but what'll he be wearing?

03 Oct 12 - 12:59 PM (#3413729)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Musket

100 and a middle 8 from the strings

03 Oct 12 - 01:11 PM (#3413735)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

sphincter, I wrote Gaberdine as a joke, took a long time for anyone to pick up on it though.
here is an example of how i accompany a song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1PaQaNH9NI&feature=rellist&playnext=1&list=PL998B0487CF451E7A

03 Oct 12 - 02:04 PM (#3413756)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

this is lovely playing and unobtrusive accompaniment
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90VLVbCVDuQ

03 Oct 12 - 02:08 PM (#3413757)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

Never assume that, just because we didn't all pounce on it with unalloyed delight, we didn't "pick up on it." I'm relieved that you meant it as a joke. For one awful minute I was questioning your proficiency in written English.

03 Oct 12 - 02:22 PM (#3413764)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Jack Campin

Joke or Freudian slip - not sure there's much difference. I took it that the reference was to The Merchant of Venice, act 1 scene 3. With all that implies.

03 Oct 12 - 02:40 PM (#3413777)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzeG3Jpcot4
I like the two accompaniments here.

03 Oct 12 - 02:44 PM (#3413779)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90VLVbCVDuQ

03 Oct 12 - 02:47 PM (#3413781)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tGNls0K4HE

03 Oct 12 - 02:48 PM (#3413782)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

"I bet Dick's going to spend the whole night worrying about the difference between Gadarene and gaberdine."

A tutorial: You can put lipstick on a Gadarine but it's still a Gadarine. You can put lipstick on gabardine but don't let your lover's wife see it. You can put lipstick on a gaberdine but it won't prove that Shylock was gay.

03 Oct 12 - 02:51 PM (#3413785)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

Matt Cranitch and Jackie Daly will be appearing at The Fastnet festival, June15 2013.
Lovely guitar accompaniment from PaulDeGrae

03 Oct 12 - 03:00 PM (#3413787)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

I love predictions.

03 Oct 12 - 03:25 PM (#3413801)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Stanron

I'm getting bored by the attacks on our original poster, but I do like the Early Music version of Pachelbels' Canon posted by Jack Campin. Not the best argument against accompaniment though, is it?

03 Oct 12 - 03:31 PM (#3413803)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,999

A cappella (Italian for "in the manner of the church" or "in the manner of the chapel",[1] also see gospel music and choir) music is specifically solo or group singing without instrumental sound, or a piece intended to be performed in this way. It contrasts with cantata, which is accompanied singing.

03 Oct 12 - 03:32 PM (#3413804)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,999

Pardon me. That last post of mine is a quote from Wikipedia.

03 Oct 12 - 03:36 PM (#3413805)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

You appear to be confusing the performance of scored polyphonic music with music (a song or tune) containing accompaniment. Not at all the same thing. It's like saying that the trumpets in Beethoven's Fifth are accompaniment.

03 Oct 12 - 03:55 PM (#3413813)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill

That clip of Matt Cranitch,Jackie Daly & Paul De Grae Live At Temple Bar Tradfest 2011 is a perfect example of accompaniment lifting the performance (the crowd start to clap when the guitar comes in) but being utterly ineffectual to the tune playing (apart from obscuring it)

03 Oct 12 - 04:02 PM (#3413816)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST

Steve, confusion is a big part of my life.

The point I was trying to make and failed to do will grab everyone the wrong way. If songs are done unaccompanied, and that can only mean solo singing, then even other voices are an intrusion. Songs written with instruments will then require that instrument because it is an integral part of the song.

03 Oct 12 - 04:03 PM (#3413817)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,999

Shazpot! That was me.

03 Oct 12 - 04:45 PM (#3413845)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Don Firth

Take a round, any round. "Frere Jackque," for example.

The melody starts. In the third measure, the same melody starts again. Then in the fifth measure, the same melody starts again. Etc.

Once the whole thing gets going, you can take a vertical slice out of it and find three or four notes all sounding at the same time. Spell them out, and you will discover that it is a chord. Do this at any point in the performance of the round (except for the first two measures and the last two measures) and you have a genuine, bona fide, and ordained chord.

Okay, sports fans, tell me: where is the melody and where is the accompaniment?

A canon, such as Pachelbel's Canon, has a very similar structure. The same melody intertwining with itself.

A round is a canon, usually wearing a Scout uniform and sitting around a campfire with a bunch of other Scouts. A canon is a round wearing a tuxedo and being played in a concert hall.

A fugue is similar, but consists of a number of similar but different melodies, each starting at a different point and intertwining in a manner similar to a round or canon. One could say it is a round on steroids.

Bach wrote a lot of these.

Second year Music Theory.

Don Firth

03 Oct 12 - 04:59 PM (#3413852)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Jim Carroll

One of the best pieces of accompaniment I have ever heard was on MacColl's Tunnel Tigers for the film, The Irishmen (I have a copy of it here, though I'm not sure the film was ever released in the UK)
The accompaniment, a guitar and concertina, starts the sequence with a repetition of chords - a steady, throbbing, repetitive sound, like a drill, then the voice comes in over the instruments:
"Hares run free on the Wicklow Mountains"... sung by Paul Lenihan.
The accompaniment remains unchanged throughout the sequence, providing a matrix for the singer to sing over.
Magic
Jim Carroll

03 Oct 12 - 05:11 PM (#3413866)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

From: GUEST,michael gill - PM
Date: 03 Oct 12 - 03:55 PM

That clip of Matt Cranitch,Jackie Daly & Paul De Grae Live At Temple Bar Tradfest 2011 is a perfect example of accompaniment lifting the performance (the crowd start to clap when the guitar comes in) but being utterly ineffectual to the tune playing (apart from obscuring it)"
that is your opinion, and in my opinion your opinion is a load of cods wallop.

03 Oct 12 - 05:30 PM (#3413884)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Stringsinger

1. The accompanist must know the tune.
2. Play what is appropriate.
3. Don't attract attention away from the soloist.
4. Follow principles of good accompaniment:
    A. Play the proper fills.
    B. Always support the soloist.
    C. Play the appropriate chords (this selection made by musicianship)
    D. Follow the singer's lyric lines. (Pay attention.)
    E.   Work out instrumental solos in advance.
    F.   Try to look at the soloist while playing. (in some cases it doesn't work)

03 Oct 12 - 05:30 PM (#3413885)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,999

I am glad that's finally settled.

03 Oct 12 - 05:40 PM (#3413890)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

here is an example very similiar to what i think jim was describing

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2tUvD0IjQY

03 Oct 12 - 05:49 PM (#3413896)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Stanron

Anyone for bagpipes?

I'm not too fond of GBH pipes (unless marching into battle) but border pipes and Northumberland small pipes are more house trained. With drones playing they accompany themselves. Not in the normal chordal way, but each melody note creates a different harmonic relationship with the drones. So far this is all east of the Irish sea.

What about the Irish pipes. In a session does an Irish piper use drones? Is that then accompaniment or the exception to the rule?

03 Oct 12 - 06:21 PM (#3413908)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill

Jim Carroll writes:
"One of the best pieces of accompaniment I have ever heard ..." etc.

And the old chap Good Soldier Squelch replies with:
"here is an example very similiar to what i think jim was describing"
... and post a video of himself.

What a twerp.

03 Oct 12 - 06:32 PM (#3413915)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

Saying that a fugue is a round on steroids is far too simplistic. Listen to Beethoven's Grosse Fuge, or the fugue that ends the Hammerklavier sonata, or the fugue that forms var. 32 in the Diabelli Variations. Then tell me that they're rounds on steroids.

03 Oct 12 - 06:41 PM (#3413919)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

And oi, Gill, that's the second time you've cost me money recommending an album. I bought the MacDara one today. It was so good that I sat in the supermarket car park for a quarter of an hour listening to a bit more and a bit more instead of going in for the widgies and milk. Here it is again for anyone stupid enough to have missed it (and you can listen to three whole tracks before you're forced to buy it) http://macdara.bandcamp.com/album/ego-trip

03 Oct 12 - 07:24 PM (#3413950)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,999

I felt that way the first time I heard The Rankin Family's CD, 'Fare Thee Well Love' back in the early 1990s.

03 Oct 12 - 07:45 PM (#3413965)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill

it's lovely isn't steve. It's so obvious that all this silly semantics can be cured by simply listening to such lovely playing. Specifically, the idea this this music could ever be enhanced by even the very best of the best strumming.

It's a shame that a dunce like the old fella will never get it.

03 Oct 12 - 08:50 PM (#3414007)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

It's pure joy. And (from first hearing - I could be wrong) most of his double stops are octaves, not suggesting harmony. No, all that lovely harmony I could hear was purely inside my head.

03 Oct 12 - 09:28 PM (#3414019)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Don Firth

Steve, saying that a fugue is a round on steroids IS simplistic, but that IS the basic idea. It's more a matter of intertwining melodies that it is of melody plus accompaniment.

One can cavil that I have "oversimplified," but for the benefit of those in the process of learning, this is preferable to confusing them by making the whole thing overly complex.

As is being done by several people here on this thread (which, frankly, I see as a matter of personal ego gratification rather than attempting to clarify things for the benefit of relative beginners).

I studied music formally at the University of Washington School of Music for three years, another two years at the Cornish College of the Arts music conservatory, plus private theory and composition with Mildred Hunt Harris, and I have taught music for decades (many former students going on to perform professionally).

So I think I have the necessary credentials.

Don Firth

03 Oct 12 - 11:38 PM (#3414061)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

Whats happened to the moderators? Is it now allowed to call someone a twat, a twerp a dunce.

04 Oct 12 - 12:06 AM (#3414066)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

mudcat.
Be aware that our forum is Free.

Anonymity and Guest Posting are permitted.

You are free to be anything you want EXCEPT unkind, impolite, argumentative, snooty, or either FOR or AGAINST that of-what-we-do-not-speak.

Be aware of what personal information you decide to share within the forum. It is public. Unlike Facebook, there is NO PRIVACY at all.

We care about your safety but we are not in the business of protecting you. Your kind and civil behavior is your best protection.

Membership, however, is currently being purified.

One of the great things about mudcat over the years has been our ability to meet other mudcatters around the world in person and visit their homes and such. For this to be safe for everyone, we gotta kinda put you through the ringer a bit. So..

04 Oct 12 - 05:20 AM (#3414114)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

Just drop it will you, Dick. I mean, you're a fine one to talk, aren't you? You've called me all sorts down the years and I just shrug. Listen to that MacDara online instead and tell us what you think.

Point taken, Don.

04 Oct 12 - 05:53 AM (#3414131)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

Steve, go somewhere else if all you wish to do is troll, and let me and others discuss it with people on this forum who do not have an agenda. I wished to discuss it over here away from you and gill, so that a sensible discussion could be had.
I NOTICE YOU DID NOT PARTICIPATE IN THE DISCUSSION OVER ON THE SESSION most people would interpret that and your involvement here as an attempt to sabotage this thread.

04 Oct 12 - 07:24 AM (#3414152)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill

Old chap, it is your inability to comprehend what people say that gets in the way of you having a sensible discussion. Just get off your high horse and roll it back a bit:

"Of course accompaniment can lift music, in many ways". Yep, that's what I said.

Now ... do you really want to discuss this or, as you say, "Ignore all remarks made by Michael Gill"?

04 Oct 12 - 07:45 AM (#3414158)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Jack Campin

I'm getting bored by the attacks on our original poster, but I do like the Early Music version of Pachelbels' Canon posted by Jack Campin. Not the best argument against accompaniment though, is it?

I haven't been arguing against accompaniment in general. The theme in the Pachelbel Canon is not an Irish traditional tune and was only ever intended by its composer to be used in a contrapuntal composition.

There are also lots of folk traditions where polyphony is ubiquitous and solo melody unknown. ITM isn't one of them.

04 Oct 12 - 09:03 AM (#3414195)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

I NOTICE YOU DID NOT PARTICIPATE IN THE DISCUSSION OVER ON THE SESSION most people would interpret that and your involvement here as an attempt to sabotage this thread.

Of all the idiotic things you've ever said, that one surely takes the biscuit.

This thread could have been interesting, it could have sparked a debate but instead we have been forced to endure the interminable squabbling and bickering from a group of you that, clearly, don't get on. It's not my problem and I don't give a flying fuck if you hate each others' guts - just don't do it on this forum. Keep your squabbles somewhere else and let us debate in peace. This is your final chance before the thread is closed
- mod -

04 Oct 12 - 12:40 PM (#3414288)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzMjQ1VQZEo a wonderful example of accompaniment lifting the music

04 Oct 12 - 12:45 PM (#3414289)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

and here irish ceili music,http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xCvm963vRk the accompanists imo defintely lift the music.

04 Oct 12 - 01:28 PM (#3414318)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: johncharles

Nic Jones was a top player and singer I would say his playing and singing complemented each other. The ceili band are pretty average.
john

04 Oct 12 - 01:35 PM (#3414325)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill

Yes, when I was a kid, that penguin eggs record was one of my all time faves. It just goes to show what can be done with commitment. Excellent stuff. But I wouldn't really class the guitar as accompaniment. It's more like the song and the guitar work are equal parters and this is when that kind of thing really works well. The voice does not obscure the guitar and the guitar does not obscure the song.

But I was disappointed with the Kilfenora clip. I've heard them better, tighter. That just sounded like a big stramash type of a session. Plenty of lift, yes, but the big thing it misses is the detail. All the delicacy of the music is lost.

I know it's a bit like comparing lasagna with cheese, but that's what it's like. Don't get me wrong, I love a good lasagna. Such disparate tastes as beef and pasta and tomato and garlic and, of course, cheese, all merged together in what is really quite a complicated dish. But you know what, the worst thing about lasagna is that stodgy feeling in your stomach after you've eaten it.

But give me a bit of cheese. Just the cheese. What a beautiful and subtle thing cheese is. And what an enormous variation of cheeses there are. Could you tell which cheese went into the lasagna? Sure, some people like a cracker with their cheese, but you can't appreciate the texture of the cheese when you chew a cracker with it, the cracker texture is just too different, it's so alien. And some people like a grape with their cheese, but this interferes with the sweetness.

Anyway, Irish diddley tunes are both erudite and simple, And a really good player of Irish diddley tunes is extremely subtle in their delivery. It is an extremely delicate thing that can be both so easily obscured and side tracked. There are two things that happen when accompaniment is used: The player is constricted in their invention and the tunes are compromised in their ambiguity.

So get this CD and report back. With an open mind please.

http://macdara.bandcamp.com/album/ego-trip

04 Oct 12 - 01:42 PM (#3414330)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

Nic Jones arranged his songs so that the guitar and voice were intimately intertwined and complementary. It is not the same as talking about a guitar accompanying an Irish tune. In the latter case the instrument is an add-on to a melody that is more than capable of standing alone. Ceili bands are a shining example of how to wreck good Irish tunes, and it bears me how anyone can talk of "accompaniment" in a ceili band setting such as the one presented here.

04 Oct 12 - 02:06 PM (#3414352)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,sturgeon

'Ceili bands are a shining example of how to wreck good Irish tunes, and it bears me how anyone can talk of "accompaniment" in a ceili band setting such as the one presented here.'

Céilí bands are far more sophisticated nowadays than Steve Shaw suggests. The Kilfenora's latest CD, 'Chapter Eight' is a glorious example of wonderfully played tunes matched by very subtle accompaniment.

04 Oct 12 - 02:06 PM (#3414353)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

Subject: can accompanists lift the music
From: Good Soldier Schweik - PM
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 02:48 PM

certain people try to claim that accompanists cannot lift music, my experience has been different, what do other people think?"
my original post it has no mention of ITM. MY POINT IS THAT,
nic jones singing that song unaccompanied would not have the same impact.
some unaccompanied singers could do it, but that was not nics forte. his forte was[imo]making a silks purse from a sows ear, by adding imaginative guitar accompaniment he improved the song, and yes it is accompaniment., if it was not there, it would be unaccompanied,it makes no difference how much it is complimentary intertwined it is still accompaniment., all accompaniment should be complimentary

04 Oct 12 - 02:07 PM (#3414355)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,sturgeon

I think you mean 'complementary', GSS.

04 Oct 12 - 02:08 PM (#3414357)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Jack Campin

I believe Nic Jones got some of the idea for that sort of guitar work from Middle Eastern music. Here's an unalloyed example:

Ruhi Su: Kiziroglu Mustafa Bey

There is actually only one melodic line going right through it - the voice occasionally takes a break and the saz does something rhythmically more elaborate, then the voice takes over again and the saz drops back to a subsidiary role. (I've heard Jones doing something much closer to that than he does on "Canadee-i-o", but can't remember where). Those instrumental breaks are often fixed in tradition: everybody who does a particular song does the same melodic breaks. It isn't exactly an accompaniment, more a sort of solo melody with episodic unisons.

I suppose you could do that to an Irish tune but there isn't any obvious reason to. You get something like it in the call and response of Hebridean work songs, but that form didn't cross over into dance music.

04 Oct 12 - 03:09 PM (#3414396)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill

I'd say that the difference with nic jones' guitar part with that song is that the guitar part stands as a piece on it's own. It's more than just an intro. And this is why it works.

Dick, Do you think that the fiddle playing I linked to above could be "lifted" by accompaniment?

What a lot of us are saying is that yes, as a general statement, accompanists can lift music. Except for certain circumstances. Can you not agree with this?

04 Oct 12 - 03:17 PM (#3414402)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,kenny

The excellent recording by MacDara O'Raghallaigh referred to above is a perfect example of music which could not be improved - or "lifted" - by any accompanist you care to name - in my opinion. It's just not necessary, and to my mind would detract from the performance. An absolute classic of traditional Irish music played on fiddle. I've heard as good - very few - but never better.

04 Oct 12 - 03:19 PM (#3414404)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

A well-played Irish tune is not notes of a tune. It is melody, rhythmic subtlety, ornamentation and variation in a beautifully-integrated synergy. Listen to the MacDara. Fer chrissake, you can listen to three whole tracks without it costing you a bean. Sublime it is. Not just sublime, utterly complete. A ceili band, no matter how competent, has to conform to a common denominator. To put it simply, there is very little scope for the invention that makes diddley music what it is. It has the same relation to diddley music as that classical pop from the RPO in the 70s had to classical music. At least that didn't pretend to be what it wasn't. I don't suppose most honest ceili band members would pretend either.

04 Oct 12 - 03:22 PM (#3414406)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

Nic Jones was more than capable of singing unaccompanied. He had/has more "fortes" than you give him credit for.

04 Oct 12 - 03:24 PM (#3414407)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

well DAVY GRAHAM got the idea of dagad from listening to an instrument caled the "!ud", in morrocco, he showed the tuning to carthy, the idea of cgcgcd that jones use for that tune, is similiar to dadgad, and derived from two sOurces,one was carthy using dadgad and the other 5 string banjo tuning double c, Gcgcd.
Steve, talks about accompaniment being intertwined, recently i recorded some tracks for a cd, the recording engineer wished me to record the voice and instrument seperately.
I could not do it, because the accompaniment interwove completely with the singing, they were one ,that in my opinion is the sign of a good accompaniment, here is one,http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ5xZQVkhak
http://www.last.fm/music/Dick+Miles/_/Rebel+Soldier. was another one

04 Oct 12 - 03:32 PM (#3414411)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,Stim

Thanks posting that clip, Jack. It's a wonderful piece. As an aside, I always find the music you link us to interesting and enjoyable. While listening to it a second time, I began to imagine the damage that a mediocre guitar chunker could do while trying to "lift" the performance.

04 Oct 12 - 03:37 PM (#3414414)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

I did not say he was not capable, I said [and this is only my opinion]that he was best at combining guitar and voice in an imgainative and often brilliant accompaniment, amd making a sils purse out of a sows ear.
[in my opinion] I do not think he was a particularly outstanding unaccompanied singer, that does not mean he was not capable.
certain people from www.session.org have assumed this thread is specifically about itm, at no time in my original post did I say it was.
Steve,I knew Nic Jones quite well, I went to see him several times after his accident,I booked him frequently, he was an excellent performer with real charisma, but as an unaccompanied singerI would not place him in the same league as a singer guitrist
I am also very pleased he is performing again with his son playing guitar.

04 Oct 12 - 03:55 PM (#3414421)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

I can't actually recall any of Nic's songs that might have started out as sows' ears.

04 Oct 12 - 03:57 PM (#3414422)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Stringsinger

Steve Shaw, I listened to MacDara Ó Raghallaigh - Ego Trip - Broderick's/McDermott's
and I heard no accompaniment. Just solo fiddle with foot. He is excellent.

04 Oct 12 - 04:16 PM (#3414431)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,kenny

"certain people from www.session.org have assumed this thread is specifically about itm, at no time in my original post did I say it was".
No - you said "can accompanists lift THE MUSIC" - see "Subject" above.
To most contributers at that website "the music" primarily refers to Irish traditional music. If you didn't want us to contribute, you should have been more specific, - what did you mean by "the music" ? - and actually membership of "thesession.org" does not exclude any of us from contributing to discussions here - unless it turns into a pointless vendetta, which the moderator has made reference to above.
I wouldn't want to be seen as party to that, so this is my final comment on this thread.

04 Oct 12 - 05:03 PM (#3414444)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

i mean traditional style music[tunes and songs] but not specifically irish music.,
although ITM is of course a part of INTERNATIONAL FOLK MUSIC as is American or Bulgarian
most contributors at this website are interested in international folk music.
you are quite right about pointless vendettas, I see that is still going on over there, I have been accused of being thick, and this is in a discussion I have not even contributed too.
this site is an international folk music site, if i refer to the music I am referring to international folk music , not specifically itm., unless I specifically say ITM, which I did not.
Steve Shaw, ONE THAT IMMEDIATELY SPRINGS TO MIND IS, Billy dont you weep for me,[imo] a poor song,which is a vehicle for his EXCELLENT guitar playing

04 Oct 12 - 05:15 PM (#3414447)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

BOONY GEORGE CAMPBELL, a fragment, compared to most other ballads very poor, but nics guitar playing gives it interest, another sows ear he makes into a silks purse

04 Oct 12 - 05:17 PM (#3414449)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

Maybe you should start a thread on what constitutes a poor song. A song only exists when it's being sung. Nic decided to sing that song. Now he's your mate, so tell us whether he selected that poor song just to show off his guitar playing.

04 Oct 12 - 05:20 PM (#3414454)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill

Dick, what a lot of us are saying is that yes, as a general statement, accompanists can lift music. Except for certain circumstances. Can you not agree with this?

04 Oct 12 - 06:55 PM (#3414493)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: johncharles

Bonny george campbell does in three verses more than many ballads do in thirty. It encapsulates the tragedy of violent conflict and its pointlessness
John

04 Oct 12 - 07:40 PM (#3414521)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

we are all entitled to different opinIons, I have no idea why Nic selected the song probably because he liked it, that is the reason most people select songs,
I do not think its worth bothering with.
if I was going to sing a song about war, I would choose Masters of war or Tommys Lot,or Universal Soldier.
sorry but I do not rate Bonny George Campbell or Billy Dont You Weep, although as always I like his Guitar Work.
Michael Gill.if youread the posts you would find I said way back here.Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Good Soldier Schweik - PM
Date: 30 Sep 12 - 04:31 PM

I think Tony McMahon would agree with me, furthermore unlike anyone else on this thread i have given examples of tunes borrowed from other traditions, because tunes are borrowed it does not mean that the music is inferior in any way.
Steve Shaw, irish tunes which happen to be music as are scottish tunes music can be improve with good accompaniment,that does not mean that they cannot be played well without accompaniment, of course they can, and of course they are better without accompanimnt than with a guitarist or accompanist who is not familiar with the tunes who plays the wrong chordsand is not listening carefully to the melody players. but good accompaniment can add to the music.

04 Oct 12 - 07:53 PM (#3414525)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

What's a wrong chord?

Universal Soldier? Christ.

04 Oct 12 - 07:55 PM (#3414526)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

Bonny george campbell does in three verses more than many ballads do in thirty. It encapsulates the tragedy of violent conflict and its pointlessness
John

Good man, John.

04 Oct 12 - 07:56 PM (#3414528)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill

With respect Dick, that doesn't answer the question. I'm not interested in bad accompaniment. I'm not interested in bad tune playing. And I'm not interested in the support that good tune playing can give to bad accompaniment and I'm not interested in the support that good accompanying can give to poor tune playing

I reiterate. Do you think that the fiddle playing I linked to above could be "lifted" by accompaniment?

What a lot of us are saying is that yes, as a general statement, accompanists can lift music. Except for certain circumstances. Can you not agree with this?

04 Oct 12 - 08:07 PM (#3414533)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

I love Nic's version of Bonny George Campbell. And listen to this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U00hSW4LvSE OK, not my cup of tea, but an honest-to-goodness effort at a bloody good song with some nice instrumental playing to boot. Now let's have a poll as to whether it's a sow's ear or a very poor ballad, as Dick asserts.

And what's Tony MacMahon gotta do with this?

04 Oct 12 - 08:13 PM (#3414537)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

You remind me of an English teacher we had in the sixth form, Michael. A Catholic priest too, he was. He could never get us buggers to listen. One day he bawled at us in frustration: "Teaching you lot is like pissing into a strong wind: it all blows back in your face!" It was the sensation of the month, wow, a priest saying "pissing." But it still didn't make us listen.

04 Oct 12 - 08:25 PM (#3414540)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill

Maybe it made one of you listen?

04 Oct 12 - 08:37 PM (#3414550)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

It made us laugh all right. It was one of those courses they added in to soak up what should have been our free periods. We knew it, he knew it. He was on a hiding to nothing. But that one saying means he will live forever in the heads of about 20 lads. He's been dead now for over 40 years.

05 Oct 12 - 03:39 AM (#3414651)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

If I was having a conversation with a stranger and they insulted me I would turn around and leave.
Michael Gill insulted me on the session website in a discussion that I was not even participating in, he has been suspended until December 4 . he has insulted me on this thread, as has Steve Shaw, until these two, both of whom have a personal vendetta against me are dealt with by the moderators, I am leaving this thread.
This thread has been messed up by two trolls.

05 Oct 12 - 04:22 AM (#3414660)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill

You're like a kid whose been offered some ice cream ... but storms off to his bedroom in a huff because he didn't get any ice cream.

05 Oct 12 - 05:39 AM (#3414699)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

"Michael Gill insulted me on the session website in a discussion that I was not even participating in, he has been suspended until December 4 . he has insulted me on this thread, as has Steve Shaw"

Jack your argumrnt has the logic of the mad hatters tea party

steve shaw. if you cant read go to specsavers,

in other words get off my back.

Steve, stop wasting everyones time, with your ridiculous liesand start reading properly, oh and stop being so patronising

Steve Shaw and Jack Campin, have come on to this thread made false accusations, and claimed Michael Gill, said things that he did not, then brought in complete irelevancies, a couple of time wasting trolls.

you really are ignorant., as well as being patronising,

jack and steve have just been trolling and flaming

the gaberdine swine, trotting, rather like the unspeakable pursuing the uneatable, to quote oscar wilde, still I dont suppose steve shaw and jack campin would appreciate OSCARS comment

that is your opinion, and in my opinion your opinion is a load of cods wallop.

05 Oct 12 - 06:42 AM (#3414717)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

they are all comments upon people comments, they are not personal attacks.
a personal attack is calling someone dishonest , a twat, a twerp, thick., accusing someone of bringing a thread over[the thread was anew thread which made no reference to existing discussions and was not specifically about ITM]Is a character smear.
I wanted to start a fresh discussion without you, whatever happened to free speech.

05 Oct 12 - 06:47 AM (#3414719)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

in fact i have shown considerable restraint while being severly provoked and trolled.
fairly typical of the net where people bully and say things they would not dare say face to face, Steve, I am an ex boxing champion.

05 Oct 12 - 07:12 AM (#3414737)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

*Shit...*

05 Oct 12 - 07:33 AM (#3414748)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,999

I thought you guys across the Atlantic said 'shite'. Live and learn.

"A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way."

Mark Twain

05 Oct 12 - 07:45 AM (#3414759)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Johnny J

Up here, we say "Shecht"...

:-)

05 Oct 12 - 08:16 AM (#3414773)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

Round here we just say "jazz." :-)

05 Oct 12 - 10:01 AM (#3414830)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill

Here's a good one for an boxing champion:

"Anger is an acid that can do more harm to the vessel in which it is stored than to anything on which it is poured".
(Mark Twain)

05 Oct 12 - 10:25 AM (#3414847)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,999

There's an old adage in sales: Once you've sold it, stop selling it.

06 Oct 12 - 06:44 AM (#3415309)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

Bonny George Campbell, didnt he go off and start a soup company?

06 Oct 12 - 08:43 AM (#3415343)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Stringsinger

One example of good accompaniment is Yvan Breaux with the group Eritage who does an admirable job on the piano behind their Irish tunes. Also, the piano
is an important part of the music of Cape Breton and there are some excellent examples of accompaniments lifting the tunes so that people want to dance.
The Bouzouki used by Irish musicians is capable of good accompaniment to many tunes. Also, John Doyle, a tasteful Irish guitarist offers good accompaniments that are musical and don't detract from the soloists.

There are many examples of accompaniments lifting the music, whether
solo violinists such as Ti Jean Carignan's backup group and others.

By contrast, the early Micheal Coleman recordings had some bad accompaniment on the piano which either was phoned in by the recording company or the
accompanist was drunk. He played all the wrong changes in spite of Coleman's brilliance.

06 Oct 12 - 09:33 AM (#3415355)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Arkie

In my opinion, the Chieftains are masters of beautiful and effective accompaniment. I have enjoyed many of the groups performances because of the arrangements and the manner in which the band colored the music and supported the lead instrument or singer.

I consider myself very fortunate to witness a performance by Steve Schneider and Paul Orts in which the lead instrument, hammered dulcimer, and the guitar were joined as it there was one instrument and that was a beautiful and amazing performance.

As far as I am concerned, the music is the reason a band comes together. I want to hear a melody. What is really enjoyable is when everyone in the band comes together. I have heard performances that could have been wonderful destroyed by one member of the ensemble (most often bass or drums)way out of balance. I have also greatly appreciated performances when no one member of the ensemble was particularly exceptional but everyone worked so well together to make the music enjoyable.

06 Oct 12 - 11:15 AM (#3415381)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Jack Campin

John Doyle, a tasteful Irish guitarist offers good accompaniments that are musical and don't detract from the soloists.

Doyle has been mentioned in various threads that led up to this one.

I would never go to any concert he was playing at or put on any recording he was involved with, no matter who he was "accompanying" and even if it was free. His playing is a monstrous display of raving anti-musical egomania. If I want to see somebody doing "look at me, Mum" on stage I'll find an 8-year-old - they can make it cute.

06 Oct 12 - 11:55 AM (#3415414)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Johnny J

Ach, he's not that bad. Nae sae guid as Ewan McPherson though.
:-)

06 Oct 12 - 12:21 PM (#3415431)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

In my opinion, the Chieftains are masters of beautiful and effective accompaniment. I have enjoyed many of the groups performances because of the arrangements...

Herein lies an issue. A band getting together and skilfully making an arrangement is one thing. A strummer providing accompaniment in a session is another thing entirely. Much more of a bolt-on. An extra layer of parmesan on top of Michael's lasagne. Not that a few such strummers don't do a good job. They do. But there is a big difference. If you leave out an instrument from a Chieftains' arrangement you end up with something missing. Leave out the strummer and, quite often, you end up with something added.

06 Oct 12 - 02:37 PM (#3415516)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: johncharles

The soup company was started by Joseph A Campbell. Bonny George was long dead before cans were invented.
john

06 Oct 12 - 03:01 PM (#3415525)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

Thanks for that condensed history, John.

06 Oct 12 - 03:20 PM (#3415534)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Don Firth

Gosh!! I didn'tknow that!!

Don Firth

06 Oct 12 - 03:25 PM (#3415536)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,999

"Thanks for that condensed history, John."

Steve, that was bad.

06 Oct 12 - 07:39 PM (#3415660)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill

You can like or dislike John Doyle's playing. There's no accounting for taste.

However, pertinent to this thread is that John Doyle is not an accompanist. He does not accompany. He does not play behind people, he plays "with" them, equally.

I really enjoy the duo of Liz Carroll and John Doyle. Master fiddle player Liz Carroll does not need or want an accompanist. She does not "need" a collaborator, but she likes it.

A friend of mine, someone else who's not keen on John Doyle's playing, complains he prefers Liz Carroll's playing when she's not with John Doyle. That's fair enough, but the important point is that it acknowledges that as a duo, they affect each other's playing. They are both different without each other.

06 Oct 12 - 09:54 PM (#3415703)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,guest jim Younger

Good points, Mr Gill.

06 Oct 12 - 11:12 PM (#3415725)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,999

Allow me to introduce you gentlemen. Mr Gill, Mr Younger; Mr Younger, Mr Gill. I'm quite sure you've never met.

07 Oct 12 - 06:21 AM (#3415778)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,Guest - Jim Younger

Thank you for your courtesy, 999.

07 Oct 12 - 06:33 AM (#3415781)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle

All right! I agree! I can't lift the music. It's too heavy - all right?!

07 Oct 12 - 08:58 AM (#3415807)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: johncharles

Try The New Stannah music Lift, ideal for the older guitarist.
john

07 Oct 12 - 09:04 AM (#3415808)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

Especially if you suffer from tripping upstairs.

07 Oct 12 - 09:13 AM (#3415811)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: johncharles

As this clip shows it is easy with a Stannah

tripping upstairs
john

07 Oct 12 - 09:15 AM (#3415812)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: johncharles

200
I could'nt resist

07 Oct 12 - 12:30 PM (#3415886)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

bout this guitarist?thiis agood example of guitar and fiddle gelling,http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ExNN03K0AmM
incidentally gill has now moved his goalposts,he said this previously,
"Specifically, the idea this this music could ever be enhanced by even the very best of the best strumming.

It's a shame that a dunce like the old fella will never get it."
well young fella, take a listen to carth and swarb

07 Oct 12 - 01:26 PM (#3415907)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OqPDw1X90M&feature=related
again beautiful sensitive playing from both of them.

07 Oct 12 - 04:54 PM (#3415998)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill

Well ... when I said "specifically" it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realise that I meant "specifically"to something specific.
In "this" instance, "this" music:
http://macdara.bandcamp.com/album/ego-trip

You haven't commented on this music. Specifically you haven't replied to the specific question of do you think that "this" music could be lifted by accompaniment.

I have no idea why you have avoided this question.

Anyway, Martin Carthy and Dave Swarbrick have always been a double act, where the guitar is an equal parter to the fiddle. And yes, they are sensitive to each other's playing, that's what being a duo is all about.

But would a solo album of Swarbrick hold attention? I'm sceptical on whether it would hold mine, but is that merely "no accounting for taste"? Maybe, but that's a different discussion.

07 Oct 12 - 06:02 PM (#3416025)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

ah, the twerp, dunce, twat,since that is how you refer to me, I will refer to you in the same manner.
I am not interested in listening to your offering until you put it in a playable link, I might think about it then when I get time.
I am certainly not going to take orders from you as to what I should listen to, I happen to be fairly busy this week with gigs and matters to do with the two festivals I am involved with, bye.

07 Oct 12 - 06:03 PM (#3416028)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

Come on now, Dick old chap. You can listen to three full tracks of MacDara's album buckshee. Have a gander and tell us whether you think that his music could be lifted even by the very best strummer you could come up with.

07 Oct 12 - 06:55 PM (#3416050)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill

http://macdara.bandcamp.com/album/ego-trip

07 Oct 12 - 07:10 PM (#3416055)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle

Dunno if I'm missing something, but frankly anything would be better than the dull clonk of that blokes boot. And it wouldn't really be rocket science playing an accompaniment that would give it a kick up the arse.

There are things that don't require accompaniment and accompaniment would detract. But that's a piss poor example.

07 Oct 12 - 07:25 PM (#3416063)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill

I'm glad you began with the your disclaimer "Dunno if I'm missing something", clever that. Dug yourself out of a hole before you jumped in it.

07 Oct 12 - 07:30 PM (#3416064)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Stanron

Rock on Big Al. How about a suzaphone to beef up the bottom end and a five string banjo putting in some chords?

07 Oct 12 - 07:50 PM (#3416071)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Jack Campin

The way he's using that boot is a bit more sophisticated than Al thinks. It acts as a kind of metronome, but he doesn't follow it exactly; quite often the downbeat anticipates the stamp at the start of a phrase and the tune catches up in a couple of bars.

All three tracks have subtly flexible timing. He can only do that because he's playing solo - anybody else in the mix, however good they were, could only make it more rigid and rhythmically less interesting.

07 Oct 12 - 07:53 PM (#3416072)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill

... and that's only one of the myriad of things he's doing

07 Oct 12 - 08:12 PM (#3416076)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,Al Whittle

well perhaps he should have got a the eq abit sharper on the boot - if its that distinguished a performance. Who knows - a bit of compression out of the mix and perhaps we'd all notice that terrific boot technique.

As it stands -give me the sousaphone, five string banjo, and the bloke in the corner with the out of tune mandolin, and that other guy (the rich guy) who's just had his set uillean pipes delivered and he's getting them out of the box - you've got to let him in join in! Not as though he's spoiling anything, is it...? And Fred on the spoons....! (somebody took a knife to his Guinness bodhran last week, and he's been upset)

07 Oct 12 - 08:14 PM (#3416079)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

One of the myriad things he's doing is making sublime music. Ever since Gill recommended it, and I downloaded it, I haven't stopped playing it. We have to drive to Barnstaple and back tomorrow morning. The missus will be thinking we can listen to Woman's Hour. Ha.

And Dick, old chap, I command you to listen to that link. Denial will get you nowhere.

http://macdara.bandcamp.com/album/ego-trip

07 Oct 12 - 08:25 PM (#3416081)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

Listen to a lot of bubblegum, do you, Al?

07 Oct 12 - 08:32 PM (#3416082)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle

How dare you characterise the folk music of this sceptred isle, as practised in the folk clubs as such?

07 Oct 12 - 08:39 PM (#3416083)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

Are you Al, Big Al, Alan or a chameleon? You've had more name changes in a run of ten posts on one thread than I've had on a dozen forums over ten years.

07 Oct 12 - 09:50 PM (#3416103)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle

I'm the same bloke but my cookie keeps needing re-setting, so I get fed up putting down my real name all the time.

I don't know why its suddenly started happening after years of staying in place. Sorry for any confusion, Steve.

08 Oct 12 - 04:40 AM (#3416194)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: johncharles

I must own up to being a fiddle philistine. Three minutes and I was losing the will to live. Perhaps there is a clue in the title of the CD.
john
p.s. Each to his own.

08 Oct 12 - 04:56 AM (#3416199)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill

Again, someone opening their post with their get out clause.

"Three minutes and I was losing the will to live. But that's because I know absolutely nothing of what I was listening to."

It's a pretty straight forward problem with most musics of the world and fair play to people owning up about it.

And, of course, it's one of the reasons guitars are strummed. To make the unfamiliar more palatable

08 Oct 12 - 05:56 AM (#3416218)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Rob Naylor

Hmmmm, I've heard Ewan MacColl do "Joy of Living" both unaccompanied and with Peggy Seeger accompanying him, and for me, without a doubt, the accompaniment lifted the music immeasurably.

08 Oct 12 - 06:00 AM (#3416219)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,MIchael gill

I'd agree with that one

08 Oct 12 - 06:46 AM (#3416235)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: johncharles

here is some fiddle music I could listen to all day. I also like the accompaniment.
john
hector the hero

08 Oct 12 - 09:49 AM (#3416320)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST

If you listen to that all day your teeth would fall out.

It's like a ball of candy floss dipped in golden syrup, rolled in icing sugar, coated in marzipan, sprinkled with hundreds and thousands and left on a warm radiator to melt all the texture out of it.

But then that's the Transatlantic Sessions progamme for you. Lowest common denominator

08 Oct 12 - 09:52 AM (#3416324)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,999

Pretty tune, johncharles. I can't hear the guitar player's stuff on the take, but it works for me.

08 Oct 12 - 09:58 AM (#3416331)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

I think a GOOD guitarist would have been better, I agree it is good fiddle playing.

08 Oct 12 - 10:52 AM (#3416361)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Big Al Whittle

lets face it, we don't understand Michael, we lack your superior taste - your je ne sais quoi; your aesthetic appreciation of Irish boot music and the nuances of a Nike trainer, as opposed to a Clarks sandal.

If I were you I'd bypass us Philistines and go straight to Brussels to apply for a Euro grant.

Works in England all the time.

08 Oct 12 - 10:54 AM (#3416363)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,Half-wit Sympathist

I think it's a shame when GSS posts on these boards and brings out Trolls, Half-Wits and bullies, who pounce on him with such venom. Oh! How comfortable and right you clever people are. I know who I'd rather have a pint with, that's for sure.

08 Oct 12 - 11:26 AM (#3416382)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Jack Campin

Maybe somebody got at cross purposes in the last few posts?

Jerry Douglas's dobro playing on that Transatlantic Sessions video of "Hector the Hero" was tasteful, minimal and effective. And, unfortunately, mostly drowned out by Phil Cunningham rambling all over the piano keyboard like a drugged-up Liberace.

It's unlikely that Scott Skinner would ever have wanted to play the tune in public without an accompanist - he just didn't work that way at the time wrote it. It's not like accompaniment is an alien accretion for that one. But Skinner was known to have chewed out one of his pianists in public for trying to hog the spotlight.

I doubt whether Douglas would have wanted to mess up MacDara's performance by joining in with it. Not sure I'd have trusted Cunningham to keep his hands in his pockets.

08 Oct 12 - 11:44 AM (#3416392)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,gillymor

Excellent fiddling on that MacDara link and the dog barking in the background on Broderick's really lifted the music.

08 Oct 12 - 12:08 PM (#3416401)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,Stim

The only redeeming feature of this thread is that there are links to some interesting things that we might not have otherwise thought to listen to. In keeping with that, here's
Mischa Maisky Playing Bach Cello Suite No.1 in G, which was mentioned above.

08 Oct 12 - 12:46 PM (#3416416)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: johncharles

J S Skinner playing hector the hero with piano accompaniment

js skinner hector the hero
click cd214a at bottom to play
john

08 Oct 12 - 03:01 PM (#3416491)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Stanron

Stim, the best posting in this thread by far.

08 Oct 12 - 03:28 PM (#3416521)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,Stim

I thought you might like it, Stanron. For a number of reasons;-)

08 Oct 12 - 06:21 PM (#3416628)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

It's unlikely that Scott Skinner would ever have wanted to play the tune in public without an accompanist - he just didn't work that way at the time wrote it.

Exactly. Composed music with accompaniment in mind is one thing. Old tunes that have to suffer the modern vogue for bolt-on accompaniment can very often stand up to it very well. I'm never going to chuck out my old Bothy Band and Planxty stuff. But they evolved not needing it and they don't need it now, as MacDara triumphantly shows.

08 Oct 12 - 06:36 PM (#3416643)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

But they evolved not needing it and they don't need it now, as MacDara triumphantly shows.
NO HE DID NOT.
you cannot possibly say that until he played the sane piece with a guitarist, then you could make a comparison, and a value judgement, your judgement is valueless.

08 Oct 12 - 07:49 PM (#3416681)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Tattie Bogle

"Of course they can lift it, but they they can't half drag it down too sometimes!"
Probably the best and most succinct answer so far from Treewindnear the top of the thread.

Guys, (esp GSS and SS) even the moderator can't get you to "Calm down dears". I'd like to bang your over-inflated heads together. Get a life and stop slagging each other off! Life's too short! I hadn't been on Mudcat for weeks and come back to THIS?????? Go out and enjoy playing some music! it might just be therapeutic - looks like you both need some strong therapy or anger management!

..........This moderator agrees with Tattie Bogle. Knock off the BS. This discussion is trying to be about music. You're chumming the thread with remarks calculated to get a response to keep the squabble going. Grow up. ---mudelf

08 Oct 12 - 08:28 PM (#3416716)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Tattie Bogle

Tattie shrink (small potato) says "Let not the sun go down on thy wrath".
Good night, and please don't lose sleep over this!

08 Oct 12 - 08:41 PM (#3416722)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Big Al Whittle

Michael stop being such a bumhole!

GSS is a good egg. He plays folk music.

Isn't it possible that his extensive knowledge of folk music has led him to have some different ideas to those you have? This bloody minded factionalism is so typical of the world of folk music.

Have a listen to one of GSS's albums. His ideas may be technically wrong, but they are ideas that enabled him to build up a formidable degree of performing skill and musical achievment.

Show a bit of respect. You talk about him as though he's a complete twat. And I resent that on his behalf.

And that goes for the bully boys you hang around with.

09 Oct 12 - 04:29 AM (#3416792)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,Keith Price

Well said Big Al.

09 Oct 12 - 04:53 AM (#3416800)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Johnny J

Thanks to Tattie Bogle for sorting things out for us.

A fountain of knowledge, voice of reason, and inveterate organiser.
:-)

09 Oct 12 - 05:03 AM (#3416804)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Big Al Whittle

The real irony is. I can't off hand think of anybody who has played more unaccompanied instrumentals in more folk clubs than ....he virtuous gunner, himself.

09 Oct 12 - 07:02 AM (#3416842)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill

"This bloody minded factionalism is so typical of the world of folk music."

Indeed it is. I hate folk music, I hate the world of folk music, always have. It's nothing more than factionalised collections of fashion cliques. I wish you'd all remove the word "music" from what you do because none of you either have the first inkling of what music is or even care about it. Let alone have any ability. All your traditions are invented affectations - nasal singing, ubiquitous guitars, endless tuning when you're supposed to be performing, endless anecdotes, clubs.

Not being able to agree on such a simple statement as "Yes, accompaniment can lift music, except in certain circumstances" just beggars belief.

You're like christians. Despite blips of brief vogues, forever preferring to be marginalised from the main stream. Forever destined to further factionalism. Forever closing your factionlised ranks. Irrelevant.

I'm bloody annoyed that Dick Miles for dragged me into this. Trying to talk to you lot about music is like trying to talk about Darwin to feckin creationists. There's always an answer, and if there isn't one you'll make one up and present it as gospel, forever changing the goalposts.

"NO HE DID NOT. You cannot possibly say that until he played the same piece with a guitarist, then you could make a comparison, and a value judgement, your judgement is valueless." That's the same argument as "just because no human remains have been found in strata laid down before the strata with dinosaur remains doesn't rule out that we might find some in the future." It's so riling. There is no answer. And because there is no answer the assumption is that of winning.

And if Mr Moderator removes this post then he is agreeing with everything I've said. He's just closing ranks.

09 Oct 12 - 07:11 AM (#3416843)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Big Al Whittle

Calm down Michael. Your post will not be removed, cos we don't understand the point you're making.

Leave out the dinosaurs. tell us what you have to say - the substance of it.

It may not coform to the experience of everybody. But we promise not to be angry with you, or sneer at you for your beliefs,

Try to extend the same courtesy to to us,

09 Oct 12 - 07:33 AM (#3416851)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,999

"I wish you'd all remove the word "music" from what you do because none of you either have the first inkling of what music is or even care about it."

Mr Gill, please post something you have written and/or sung and let us hear just how good you are. I'd like to hear what you perceive music to be and the level of excellence one must achieve to be accepted by you, because based on that statement you must know a helluva lot more than me and anyone else on this forum.

09 Oct 12 - 07:43 AM (#3416853)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill

Sorry Guest, I don't do put up or shut up, it's counter productive.

Sorry Big Al, I'm not being personal, but you have the tone of a conciliatory evangelist, which coincidentally (not ironically) is the substance of the point I was making.

09 Oct 12 - 07:44 AM (#3416854)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

Firstly,I have not dragged anyone into anything.
"Indeed it is. I hate folk music, I hate the world of folk music, always have."Michael Gill quote
Michael, I understand you play irish trad music, this music is generally categorised as a part of folk music, it is not normally categorised as jazz or reggae or classical or ska or rap, are you saying that you hate the music you play or that ITM is not FOLK MUSIC.
you are entitled to your opinion much as the flat earth society are entitled to theirs, but very few people believe the world is flat, and very few people believe that ITM is not folk music.
furthermore you say you like Nic Jones, Nic Jones is classified as folk music, you appear to contradict yourself.

09 Oct 12 - 07:50 AM (#3416856)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,999

OK, Mr Gill. However, I do "do put up or shut up." Here's one from me. Tear it apart at your leisure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNQnLUiM4YE

And have a good day.

09 Oct 12 - 08:05 AM (#3416863)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Will Fly

Well, I loved Bruce's YouTube clip - wonderful stuff.

I also loved Macdara's fiddling - wonderful stuff. Even downloaded the album.

I don't give a stuff for the argument in this thread - it's pointless - but thanks, folks, for the music links. They've given me great pleasure, and every one for different - and valid - reasons.

09 Oct 12 - 08:06 AM (#3416865)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

Steve Shaw, it is not a prediction but a fact


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Live Dates
Date        Venue        Location        Details        Link
18 Oct 2012 -
        Celbridge Library Concerts        Celbridge, Co. Kildare        Matt Cranitch & Jackie Daly;
Paddy Cronin & Paul de Grae        Info
26 Oct 2012 -
28 Oct 2012        O'Flaherty Irish Music Retreat        Waxahachie, Texas        Matt Cranitch & Jackie Daly        Info
30 Oct 2012 -
        House Concert        Houston, Texas        Matt Cranitch & Jackie Daly        Info
31 Oct 2012 -
01 Nov 2012        TTU School of Music        Lubbock, Texas        Matt Cranitch & Jackie Daly        Info
03 Nov 2012 -
04 Nov 2012        Austin Celtic Festival        Austin, Texas        Matt Cranitch & Jackie Daly        Info
06 Nov 2012 -
07 Nov 2012        Irish Music School of Chicago        Chief O'Neill's, Chicago        Matt Cranitch & Jackie Daly        Info
08 Nov 2012 -
        Detroit Irish Music Association        Ann Arbor, MI        Matt Cranitch & Jackie Daly        Info
09 Nov 2012 -
11 Nov 2012        Sliabh Minnesota Weekend        Celtic Junction, St. Paul, MN        Matt Cranitch & Jackie Daly        Info
07 Dec 2012 -
09 Dec 2012        Festival EstOvest 2012        Turin, Italy        Matt Cranitch, Jackie Daly & Eoin Ó Riabhaigh        Info
01 Feb 2013 -
03 Feb 2013        Strings at Witney        Oxfordshire, England        Matt Cranitch        Info
20 Feb 2013 -
        An Seomra Caidrimh (1.15pm)        University College Cork        Matt Cranitch & Geraldine O'Callaghan        Info
24 Feb 2013 -
        The Gathering Festival        Killarney, Co. Kerry        Matt Cranitch, Jackie Daly & Paul de Grae        Info
01 Mar 2013 -
03 Mar 2013        North Texas Irish Festival        Dallas, Texas        Sliabh Notes – Matt Cranitch,
Dónal Murphy & Tommy O'Sullivan        Info
15 Jun 2013 -
        Fastnet Maritime and Folk Fest        Ballydehob, Co. Cork        Matt Cranitch & Jackie Daly        Info
02 Jul 2013 -
        Steeple Sessions        The Unitarian Church, Dublin        Matt Cranitch & Jackie Daly

09 Oct 12 - 08:26 AM (#3416878)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill

It is an insult to the traditional musics of the world for the fashion clique of "folkies" to appropriate them. And that the folkies don't realise this makes it all the more galling. It results in stuff like suggesting that a perfectly formed and performed indigenous piece of art would be better if it had some strumming in it. It's patronising at best.

09 Oct 12 - 08:33 AM (#3416881)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Big Al Whittle

Michael - it may have escaped your attention - this is a folk music site.

We are 'folkies'.

Walking in here and pissing up the leg of the elderly denizens is not appreciated.

perhaps there is a site for ITM . A sort of Guantamamo Bay for folk music fundamentalists.

09 Oct 12 - 09:33 AM (#3416902)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill

I thought it was a site for reasonable people. Or at least people I could reason with.

09 Oct 12 - 10:10 AM (#3416918)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: johncharles

Whatever has happened between GSS and Michael Gill perhaps they couid sort it out elsewhere. Please.
john

09 Oct 12 - 10:10 AM (#3416919)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Big Al Whittle

Okay start the reasoning.

Bear in mind every music in the world has been bastardised in some form by people known as musicians - people endeavouring to scrape a living from the dull earth.

09 Oct 12 - 10:26 AM (#3416925)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: johncharles

session
play some music have some fun. John

09 Oct 12 - 10:28 AM (#3416929)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST

Accompanists make a HUGE difference! In Cape Breton fiddle music, the pianist is virtually as important as the fiddler. As an example, the late Lila Hashem elevated the playing of everyone she accompanied. Study the old recordings, and you'll clearly see that Joe MacLean, Bill Lamey and Dan R. MacDonald played their best when Lila provided her strong rhythm and drive. Some of these selections are so exciting they'll blow the top of your head off, despite the low quality of the recordings.

09 Oct 12 - 10:38 AM (#3416934)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,Peter Laban

John Charles, You do realise Michael is playing the fiddle there, don't you?

09 Oct 12 - 10:50 AM (#3416939)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: johncharles

Peter I never looked at who was playing I found Sandys Bells videos when I was going to visit edinburgh and was looking for some sessions.
Apparently sandy bells is quite famous in those parts.
they sound good to me.
john

09 Oct 12 - 10:53 AM (#3416940)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,Peter Laban

Fair enough John, I had to ask before some people thought you were trying to stir ;-)

09 Oct 12 - 11:01 AM (#3416942)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: johncharles

never did get there but my mate goes to the festival every year so might make it next year. probably just listen they all look very good.
john

09 Oct 12 - 11:09 AM (#3416947)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill

this one's better:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPZ7FiXQeUU

09 Oct 12 - 11:41 AM (#3416956)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: johncharles

I have tears of laughter running down my face. Crikey how much had the flute player had to drink

09 Oct 12 - 12:44 PM (#3416992)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill

I'm glad you liked that John, it is great isn't it. Here's some background:

http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/29622/

09 Oct 12 - 07:29 PM (#3417198)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,roderick warner

Agree with Michael Gill, pretty much. But this thread is a hoot...

10 Oct 12 - 08:00 AM (#3417440)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill

Right oh Big Al,

You say, "every music in the world has been bastardised in some form by people known as musicians."

Yes, this is a fundamental truth whether we like it or not. I think though, that this process comes in two not very subtly different forms and depends entirely on the musicians' own strength of tradition.

All musicians like to beg, steal and borrow. And all musicians have tradition, in some form or other. But if you are a musician with little sense of tradition, little actual tradition, or with a week, un-established or manufactured tradition, then what you beg, borrow and steal will swamp whatever tradition you have and while in the long run, it could possibly be the beginning of a new tradition, initially it is bound to merely create second hand, second rate music.

If, however your tradition is strong and well established, and your personal intimacy with it is strong and well established, then there is a much higher chance that what you beg, borrow and steal will enrich one's tradition rather than dilute it.

There comes a problem though, and that is one of protectionism. If a tradition requires it to be protected then it is, by definition, week. Should week traditions be protected? My opinion is that they shouldn't. There are enough musicologists archivists and historians around to preserve traditions in museums for posterity, but I for one am not interested in traditions that are being protected from outside influence. For they are, by definition, being artificially closed to further enrichment.

10 Oct 12 - 08:29 AM (#3417452)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

There comes a problem though, and that is one of protectionism. If a tradition requires it to be protected then it is, by definition, week. Should week traditions be protected? My opinion is that they shouldn't.
Interesting comment,in 1951 Comhaltas was formed to protect the Irish music tradition.
I am not trying to score points, and I have certain criticisms of CCE, However the statement is fact,I know you are interested in ITM,so do you think CCE has closed ITM to further enrichment., or do you think that it was actually stronger than CCE thought,and has somehow survived despite CCE..
My opinion is that CCE is a CURATES EGG, it has contributed to the tradtion because people meet up at the national and to a lesser extent regional fleadhs and play regardless of entering the competitions, however they would not have done so Initially if it had not been for CCE. cce has inadvertenly altered the music through its marking system, and unintentionally produced a competitive attitude that never used to exist in ITM.
OK how about the northumbrian small pipes society and its successor northumbrian pipers society.here is its history.it would have died in the 1920s.

The present Society is the successor to the 'Northumbrian Small Pipes Society' which was started in December 1893, - "to encourage the art of playing the Northumbrian Small Pipes; to preserve the melodies peculiar to the English border, and to exhibit the musical pastimes of Sword Dancing, and the other traditional accompaniments of our Folk Music". They published their proceedings until 1897, and continued competitions till 1899, but soon afterwards dissolved.

Interest in Northumbrian pipe playing had waxed and waned for at least a hundred and fifty years before this. Thomas Bewick, the engraver, at the end of the eighteenth century, wrote to a friend: "At one time I was afraid that these old tunes, and this ancient instrument, might from neglect of encouragement get out of use, and I did everything in my power to prevent this and to revive it, by urging Peacock to teach pupils to become masters of this kind of music; and I flatter myself my efforts were not lost." John Peacock was a small pipes player, and the last of the Newcastle waits. It was he who persuaded the pipmaker John Dunn to make a set with four keys to it. He also produced a tune book.

The early part of the nineteenth century was dominated by the Reids of North Shields, (father and son) who were making beautiful sets of pipes with increasing number of keys, up to seventeen. These are still much sought after. However the number of players declined throughout the century.

Towards the end of the nineteenth century Dr. J. Collingwood Bruce, the antiquarian, gave a series of lectures on the pipes and pipe music, because of the fear that they would die out completely. He also (with John Stokoe) compiled the 'Northumbrian Minstrelsy', published by the Society of Antiquaries of Newcastle upon Tyne in 1882.

After the break-up of the 'Northumbrian Small Pipes Society', piping was kept alive by the Duke of Northumberland, who still retained a piper in his service, and by families in which small pipe playing was a traditional art, e.g. the Cloughs of Newsham, and by players in districts where the love of pipe music had not given way to the attractions of more modern tunes and instruments.

About 1920, G.V.B. Charlton of the Hesleyside family, who had been a member of the previous Society, wrote many articles for the press, chiefly about the half-long pipes, which were then his main concern and particular interest. He also kept lists of pipers, and where sets of pipes were known to be. W.A. Cocks of Ryton also wrote articles and started a collection of bagpipes. He also made pipes.

These two, together with Edward Merrick, revived competitions; in Newcastle at the North of England Musical Tournament, and at agricultural and other shows in the county. James Spencer gave a silver cup to be competed for at the Bellingham Show (1921), and dies from which medals could be produced were given by many leading Northumbrian families.

The first meeting of the present Society was held on 5th October 1928. There were five people present, viz., Basil Alderson, William Miller, Vivian Fairbairn, William Kirton and Gilbert Askew. They had received three encouraging letters, from A. Shield, J.T. Dunn and J. Armstrong, and two apologies for absence, from J.K. Stanger and R. Douglas. This resolution was put before the meeting and accepted:

'Resolved that a Society be here and now formed for the purpose of encouraging pipe playing, and the composition and collection of pipe music, with particular reference to the Northumbrian pipes; the policy of the Society to be directed on such lines as to be most encouraging and stimulating to the younger generation of pipers and beginners in pipe playing.'

10 Oct 12 - 08:49 AM (#3417457)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill

Yes, without a doubt, Irish diddley music has survived, nae thrived, despite CCE. An interesting quote on the nsleeve of MacDara Ó Raghallaigh's record says that one of tunes he plays on has "survived" his endless playing of it in competitions. The music itself is far stronger than the influences of CCE.

And I don't really care much for Northumbrian pipe music

10 Oct 12 - 09:21 AM (#3417476)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

alright,
here is another example the willie clancy summer school, this has many workshops in the memory of willie clancy, but it also exists to promote irish traditional music,it started in 1973.
another example of an organisation deciding to promote the music in order to strengthen it .
Would you really have wished the northumbrian pipe tradition, to have disappeared, even though you dont care for the music?

10 Oct 12 - 09:38 AM (#3417483)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill

I'd say that an organisation that "promotes" is different to one that "protects"

10 Oct 12 - 09:45 AM (#3417487)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill

And as I said, there's plenty of musicologists, archivists and historians around to preserve the traditions of northumbrian bagpipes and their tunes. And preserve it they will. My dislike for the things is entirely inconsequential.

10 Oct 12 - 10:46 AM (#3417517)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

promotion is the antithesis of letting it die, so by promoting, a society is protecting it from disappearing or dying out, so to me it is the same thing you are preventing the disappearance of a tradition. imo without societes like the organisation behing the willie clancy week and the northumbrian pipers society, the traditional music scene would be worse off that is just my opinion.

10 Oct 12 - 11:35 AM (#3417542)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill

Nope, as usual, you don't understand.

Traditions are not things that just live or die, they are always in a constant state of flux. Sometimes they fizzle out, but mostly they evolve and/or get subsumed. And the definition of a living tradition is one that is constantly evolving. And there is only one way a tradition can stop evolving and that is if all of it's practitioners close their minds to other influences, either by becoming protectionist or by dying.

10 Oct 12 - 12:13 PM (#3417559)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: greg stephens

Luckily, for all practical purposes folk music is immune to the attention of theorists.

10 Oct 12 - 12:36 PM (#3417571)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,Domnall

"And I don't really care much for Northumbrian pipe music"
"My dislike for the things is entirely inconsequential."

Genuine question, Michael - is it the instrument or Northumbrian pipe music that you're not so keen on?

10 Oct 12 - 12:48 PM (#3417578)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

well Michael,
I can tell you that the willie clancy week and the comhaltas fleadhs are packed with musicians playing music and appearing to enjoy themselves, and i am not referring to competitions, i am talking about people playing in pubs in informal sessions.
So I and all those musicians do not understand?

10 Oct 12 - 01:16 PM (#3417591)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Stilly River Sage

Looks like you're splitting hairs now, Dick. And it sounds like the old preservation/conservation argument - not a lot different in the end, but it all has to do with bottling something up to save it or to keep using it at levels that keep it viable. Whether language, music, or wilderness.

SRS

10 Oct 12 - 01:20 PM (#3417595)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST

Greg, I don't think "folk" music, as played by "folkies" is immune at all to the attention of theorists. English "folk" music and Cecil Sharp being the archetypal example. However, traditional musics are. Though I don't think it's luck, it has more to do with the essence of it.

Domnall, not sure really, a bit of both probably. I think it's the staccato mostly. And that it sounds like an 80s computer game.

Dick, yes, willie week and the comhaltas fleadhs are packed with musicians playing music and enjoying themselves, despite the competitions. And you'd be hard pressed to find anyone at these gatherings who thinks the best music is to be heard in the competitions. And your point is ... ?

10 Oct 12 - 01:34 PM (#3417597)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: greg stephens

I meant traditional folk as in the old definitions. Folk, as in "the folk scene" is obviously at the mercy of theorists, alas!

10 Oct 12 - 03:24 PM (#3417650)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

my point is that millions of people have enjoyed ITM as a result of the formation of Comhaltas, CCE WAS FORMED BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE WERE CONCERNED ABOUT THE TRADITION DYING.
for the last 60 years the Fleadhs have acted as a gathering place for many musicians to make informal sessions, it is extremely unlikely this would have happened, unless Comhaltas was founded, the same goes for the willie clancy summer school

10 Oct 12 - 04:42 PM (#3417697)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,domnall

Thanks, Michael

10 Oct 12 - 05:03 PM (#3417704)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill

Yes, a large amount of people the world over enjoy "ITM" (ITM, as you put it. eeeeaaauughh what a hideous abbreviation that I've never once heard from anyone who was actually any good at playing traditional Irish music).

Yes, a lot do come to it via Comhaltas. And a lot come to it via commercial recordings and Celtic Women and Riverdance etc, and a lot come to it through places like thesession.org. But non of these are good enough resources to enable players to become any good.

So, the astonishing thing about the robustness of traditional Irish music is that despite the vast majority of people the world over who do enjoy playing it, but play it deplorably badly, it still survives, nea thrives.

10 Oct 12 - 07:43 PM (#3417792)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

(ITM, as you put it. eeeeaaauughh what a hideous abbreviation that I've never once heard from anyone who was actually any good at playing traditional Irish music).
well, nobody in ireland calls it diddley music, its often just called trad music, but I suppose I picked up the term ITM, from www.session .org, other people call it that over there
however it is a correct description, it stands for irish trad music. nobody here in ireland who like the music calls it diddley that would be regarded as putting the music down.
Michael, thats how it is if you start calling it diddley in ireland, it will be first met with bewilderment , and then it will be a look of who is this eedjit.nothing against you mate , but thats how it is

10 Oct 12 - 07:58 PM (#3417809)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

A rose by any other name...

10 Oct 12 - 08:12 PM (#3417817)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill

My great granddad from Mayo called it diddley. And all my mates call it diddley. And, as you consistently fail to realise because it is beyond your intellectual reach, there's a big difference between people who like the music and people who can play it and really understand it - people who you obviously don't hang around with. And irreverence is a long standing tradition.

However, what you call is irrelevant really. And irrelevant that "ITM" riles me. Silly really. (though the abbreviation "TIM" is funnier")

Do you want to make a point worth making? After how many posts? Or do you want to change the subject every time you run into a dead end

10 Oct 12 - 08:36 PM (#3417834)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Big Al Whittle

surely you can say the same about every type of music.

Most musicians are amateurs and don't work hard enough to dedicate themselves to being really good. In fact you've got to have a few bits missing somewhere up top to surrender your life completely to the music.

You hear a lot of awful blues and jazz and classical players - and folk.... well the very title is an invitation to run mad with a banjo.

I think Martin Carthy has the right of it, when he says the worse thing we can do with the music that we love, is not play it

10 Oct 12 - 08:46 PM (#3417844)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

Yeah, but who was the "we" he was referring to? Have you asked him?

10 Oct 12 - 08:56 PM (#3417856)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill

Al, yes, (assuming you are referring to my post that begins "Right oh Big Al,") I was talking about every type of music and musician.

But with regards to traditional Irish music, there is so little technique needed that it is common for amateurs to be exceptionally good.

11 Oct 12 - 05:57 AM (#3417984)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

But with regards to traditional Irish music, there is so little technique needed that it is common for amateurs to be exceptionally good.
neilidh boyle, a man with a lot of technique, referred to it as jungle music.
irish music requires good technique., the same as any other music, Brendan Power has good technique, Joe Burke has good technique,I could list hundreds of players with good technique, you are talking nonsense, if you have bad technique you are limited in what you can achieve.you cannot play any instrument well without practising and acheiving good technique.
and I am not referring to being able to move out of first position on the fiddle, some fiddlers can only play in first position, but the rest of their technique is good.

11 Oct 12 - 06:15 AM (#3417988)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,Peter Laban

The point, I believe, was not about having good or bad technique. It was about the relative amount of skill required to play Irish music well as opposed to that required to play say, a violin concerto.

11 Oct 12 - 07:34 AM (#3418013)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill

For feck sake, read why can't you read what I write.? What is it with your brain that fails to hold the simplest bits of information?

I never said it doesn't require good technique. Sheesh

11 Oct 12 - 07:44 AM (#3418018)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle

Ye-esss........?

Michael and Dick, could you just clarify what it is you disagree about?

11 Oct 12 - 08:06 AM (#3418025)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST

I think they need to get a room for the weekend and get it all out of their systems, in which ever way that takes.

11 Oct 12 - 08:27 AM (#3418032)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill - PM
Date: 10 Oct 12 - 08:56 PM

Al, yes, (assuming you are referring to my post that begins "Right oh Big Al,") I was talking about every type of music and musician.

But with regards to traditional Irish music, there is so little technique needed that it is common for amateurs to be exceptionally good.
this is the statement I disagree with.
furthermore there is no mention of classical music whatsoever.
if Michael meant that why did he not write that?

11 Oct 12 - 08:40 AM (#3418039)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,Peter Laban

Because to anyone who has given the matter some thought and to anyone aware of Michael's often stated thoughts on the matter it it patently clear what he meant?

11 Oct 12 - 08:45 AM (#3418043)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,Al

and these thoughts are, and how do they contradict Dick...

11 Oct 12 - 08:59 AM (#3418051)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,Peter Laban

The thoughts he expressed above, that, in the grand scheme of things, it doesn't take a huge amount of technique to play Irish music well. And that for that reason dedicated amateurs can get very good at it.

Dick obviously dismisses this, in his own words, as 'talking nonsense'.

11 Oct 12 - 09:05 AM (#3418056)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST

This is really tiresome.

What I meant was: that with regards to traditional Irish music, there is so little technique needed that it is common for amateurs to be exceptionally good.

What I didn't mean was: that with regards to traditional Irish music, technique is not important, so it is common for amateurs to be exceptionally good.

I would rather spike my eyes out with brambles drenched in the juices of Scotch bonnets and spike my ears out with the latest top ten pop charts on looped repeats (not that you'd notice it was looped) than be in the same room as Dick Miles. And for once, he might reciprocate.

11 Oct 12 - 09:27 AM (#3418070)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,Peter Laban

Extremely tiresome indeed. I'll step out and go back to reading again.

11 Oct 12 - 11:45 AM (#3418113)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: The Sandman

ok lets agree to disagree, I think accompanists can on occasions lift the music i also think they can wreck the music, i think good technique is needed to play any music, but technique is not the be all and end all.

11 Oct 12 - 11:55 AM (#3418122)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Big Al Whittle

Michael, i'm sure you'd like dick Miles.

For what its worth, I think you'd work together very well as a duo.

Instrumentally - you're both very good, and you both are of a traddy cast of mind. If chaps like you can't get on together, how are you going to be fishers of men for the traddy cause.

Anyway, I've got to get ready to do my open mic. I would feel privileged to have either of you playing there, and I'm the sort Donovan/Dylan inspired scum who were expelled from the folk musc world in the 1970's.

11 Oct 12 - 03:29 PM (#3418226)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

I've seen ten-year-old kids, not in Ireland either, who have played Irish tunes so well it brought tears to the eyes. Playing music well is not about "technique." I've seen people with brilliant technique who haven't got a bloody clue about how this music is played. At least one has been mentioned on this thread.

11 Oct 12 - 03:31 PM (#3418227)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Stanron

It's rare for me to agree with anything GUEST micheal gill says but this business about technique is pretty straightforward.

The trad fiddle player is almost never required to play beyond first position. All those intonation skills needed to play in tune above B on the E string are not needed.

Flat keys are almost never used. This means that notes that would be on the first fret (if the fiddle were fretted) are not needed.

Vibrato is rarely used and not needed. Notes longer than a quarter note are decorated in a variety of ways, not rendered with vibrato.

There may well be other areas of technique which the traditional fiddler does not need. These came to mind first.

11 Oct 12 - 03:33 PM (#3418229)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Steve Shaw

And, in my CD-buying days, I bought tons of Irish CDs made by people with brilliant technique that I played just once. Sometimes not even past about track 4.

11 Oct 12 - 05:40 PM (#3418274)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: GUEST,michael gill

Stanron, I'm more than happy to chat about things we might disagree about. An I'm more than happy to change my mind about stuff. I do that often.

11 Oct 12 - 07:16 PM (#3418310)
Subject: RE: can accompanists lift the music
From: Stanron

Me too.