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17 Oct 12 - 02:00 PM (#3421434) Subject: Republic/ Conservative Folk Singers From: GUEST,Guest - Cathy I live in U.S.A. and have always loved folk music - both traditional and contemporary folk music, as well as some folk/rock music. I don't know about U.K. in regards to this but it seems like most well known folk singers/groups and listeners of folk music here are Democratic in their political beliefs and I guess it has always been that way. I don't know if there are any well known folk artists around who are Republicans or just more conservative in their political choices or not. I know from attending concerts over the years of many well known folk artists/groups that the audience too seems to be made up of more liberal people which is no surprise - but I have been wondering if there are any conservative (or willing to admit to being so) and listeners of folk music who (attend concerts, etc.)who are Republicans? |
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17 Oct 12 - 02:10 PM (#3421443) Subject: RE: Republic or Conservative folk singers From: Will Fly I have always separated music from politics - music is too precious a thing to be tainted with political slogans or beliefs. I have several personal strong social and political opinions, but I've never put them into a musical context. I also don't believe that a "folk" song - whatever that is - has ever had any real significant lasting political impact. Just my personal two-cents-worth, Cathy... (and I'm from the UK, by the way). |
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17 Oct 12 - 02:26 PM (#3421453) Subject: RE: Republic or Conservative folk singers From: GUEST,Doc John Folk songs, where there is any political or social leaning, are left wing so the people who sing them or listen to them will also have this political leaning. Bascom Lamar Lundsford who recorded and collected folksongs for the Library of Congress had very unpleasant right wing leanings, as reported on the mudcat by those who met him years ago. However I can't think of anything he recorded being of a politcal nature. |
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17 Oct 12 - 02:28 PM (#3421456) Subject: RE: Republic or Conservative folk singers From: GUEST,Guest - Cathy Message to Will: Thank you for your quick reply to this thread. Just wanted to add that many of the concerts I have attended (not political events) but are advertised in the newspaper and other ads as a concert at medium to large venues, where you buy your tickets ahead of time, etc. and are held in large concert halls. I have found that many folk artists will start talking about their political agendas on stage between songs - (well known folk artists.) Don't want to name names here but it does make me feel uncomfortable. Some artists do this more then others. Yes, I know, I don't have to go to their concerts, etc. but I do remain fans of their music and do like to hear "live music" so I am always hoping that the concert will be just that - a concert and not too much political talk going on. |
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17 Oct 12 - 02:53 PM (#3421476) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative Folk Singers From: Richard Bridge Can we shoot them now? Transferred from a deleted duplicate thread. --Mod |
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17 Oct 12 - 03:08 PM (#3421488) Subject: RE: Republic or Conservative folk singers From: Jim Carroll The earliest songs ever to be gathered together in a collection are to be found in Wright's 'Political Songs from John (1199) to Edward II' (1307) - in French, Provencal, Latin, Anglo-Norman and English. Echoes of politics in the shape of The Enclosures can be found in our Transportation Songs, the Bothy Songs reflect greedy masters and overworked and exploited farm workers, many of our sea and soldiers songs record the hardship and injustice of being ripped from land and family and forced to fight in bloody and rapaciously murdeous wars. In Ireland, the thousands of emigration songs came about from what is often referred to as Ireland's Holocaust - The Great Famine; and the Irish repertoire would be decimated without the songs of struggle for independence. It is virtually impossible to discuss the American Civil Rights struggle without remembering those wonderful protest song, many of which brought many of us into folk music in the first place. Politics, like the poor, is always with us and political songs reflect that fact. They have been part of our self-expression for a long, long time and long may that continue to be the case. (or are we just talking about left-wing political songs?) Jim Carroll |
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17 Oct 12 - 04:10 PM (#3421529) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: artbrooks There is at least one active singer/songwriter and folk music performer (and Mudcat member) whose personal opinions are at the Tea Party extreme of the US political spectrum (and I won't name him), but this has no effect at all on his music. There are a few individuals on Mudcat who articulate intelligent and well thought-out conservative points of view (and a number of, IMHO, pure idiots), at least one of whom I spent some time enjoying music with at the Getaway. The line between bluegrass, which is usually (in the US) seen as a sub-set of folk, and country is pretty thin, and there are many country musicians who are very right-wing. Generally, however, folkies trend left. |
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17 Oct 12 - 04:17 PM (#3421531) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: Richard Bridge I see my post has been deleted. Well done censors. Not. Folk music is the antithesis of art music (and opera): the playgrounds of the ruling class. It is one reason why the 1954 definition so (wrongly) derided by the new upper middle class remains important. 600 years (at least) of oppression and rapine discarded on the whim of a moderator, and probably one whose national history is less extensive than the foundations of my house. If it's just a pretty noise - get thee hence. You are one of the oppressors.
[no post has been deleted- perhaps it did not actually post-Mudelf] |
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17 Oct 12 - 04:34 PM (#3421543) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: GUEST,999 Richard: the OP had started two threads with approximately the same title. You and I posted on the other thread which was deleted. So, in fact your post was deleted as was mine, but only as part of the other whole thread being deleted. |
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17 Oct 12 - 04:43 PM (#3421551) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: GUEST,mando-player-91 Conservative folksingers I didn't there was any or not that I can think of.... |
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17 Oct 12 - 04:46 PM (#3421552) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: GUEST,mando-player-91 Of course it wouldn't matter to me anyway unless they were singing in favor of white power or something. |
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17 Oct 12 - 04:52 PM (#3421555) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: Jeri I deleted it. As 999 said, it was the second of two threads started by the OP, and it was meant to correct an error. Richard, I'll transfer your message into this thread. |
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17 Oct 12 - 04:55 PM (#3421557) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: pdq It's quite refreshing to listen to Doc Watson, Ian & Sylvia, Burl Ives and other who left politics out of their music. Even Stephen Stills, when he heard that "For What It's Worth" was being called a "protest song", got a bit angry, claiming a protest singer says "I hate this, I hate that, I hate fucking everything! I'm not a protest singer!". |
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17 Oct 12 - 04:59 PM (#3421561) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: Allan Conn "but it does make me feel uncomfortable" I find it irritating. We put on concerts too and two instances come to mind where well known (here in the UK)artists did insist on preaching to the audience. The problem with doing that to a small audience is you get someone who disagrees with the performer and what should be entertainment turns into a politicl debate. I kind of resented paying good money to see two guys argue with each other and wouldn't fancy paying good money to have someone preach to me either. I've no gripe with songs having messages etc but they should mostly speak for themselves perhaps just with a short introduction rather than a big monologue. |
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17 Oct 12 - 05:06 PM (#3421567) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: GUEST,Tony Cathy, there's always been a connection between folk music and the political left, at least since Woody Guthrie. So it's natural for performers and audience to enjoy that esprit-de-corps at a folk concert, in the same way that GW Bush speaking at a defense contractors' convention grinningly called them "my base." My impression is that conservatives who are inclined toward folk music usually go with country-western/bluegrass instead. It's too bad no one explained that to the Dixie Chicks, but their loss of income is a good indication of the degree of political conservativism in CW fans. Richard, your folk/art music dichotomy really interests me, since I recently concluded that all the songs I like best, which I think of as folk songs, probably started life as 19th century art songs. And my favorite contemporary song-writer is someone who writes solidly in that art-song tradition, though he sings in a gritty, boozy rock or jazz style (I hate his singing). |
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17 Oct 12 - 05:14 PM (#3421571) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: GUEST,999 "And my favorite contemporary song-writer is someone who writes solidly in that art-song tradition, though he sings in a gritty, boozy rock or jazz style (I hate his singing)." I think that is a great compliment to the song-writer. |
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17 Oct 12 - 05:20 PM (#3421576) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: Larry The Radio Guy I think all music's political. Except some (a lot of what is called 'folk music') is more honest about it. Songs about how the purpose of life is to look good enough or say the right things that will get you the 'chick' (or the guy). Or how life isn't worth living once that significant other (who defines you) disappears. That's political, is it not? Most vapid pop music is, from my perspective, 'conservative' in that it avoids looking at how we can truly enhance the lives of all of us in a meaningful way. Isn't it great that we can find some music that doesn't do that? |
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17 Oct 12 - 05:22 PM (#3421577) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: Jack Campin Peter Bellamy was some sort of Conservative, and it did influence the way he performed. Wouldn't have been a problem for me (I never saw him) as he was genuinely using that background as a source for artistic ideas. There is a well known singer-songwriter in the UK scene who throws anti-abortionist propaganda into his act. I've never seen or heard the poisonous little shit and never intend to. That's completely beyond anything I regard as tolerable. There are some performers in the Borders who do the local hunting songs in a way that rather strongly suggests support for the whole hunting/Countryside-Alliance/forelock-tugging-rural-Toryism bag. I can tolerate a certain amount of that for its anthropological interest (and sometimes, terrific singing) before deciding I'd really rather be somewhere else. I used to live in an Orange area of Glasgow. Their music was genuinely fun, but they would never have thought of themselves as being "folk" and neither would anybody involved in the officially-named "folk" scene (except maybe Adam MacNaughton). |
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17 Oct 12 - 05:24 PM (#3421578) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: kendall I know one. He doesn't flaunt it and he is an outstanding musician, singer and songwriter. He's very popular around here and thats all we care about. |
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17 Oct 12 - 06:04 PM (#3421599) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: Cool Beans At least a couple of folks that I (liberal) run across at open mics and hootenannies are right-wingers. We all get along and never, so far, have any of us sung political songs--it's just not something we do. If it weren't for Facebook, I wouldn't be aware of their political leanings. |
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17 Oct 12 - 06:29 PM (#3421613) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: Acorn4 You don't have to support hunting to sing a hunting song any more than you have to be a psychopath to sing a murder ballad. |
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17 Oct 12 - 06:34 PM (#3421615) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: Jack Campin No, but I think I can tell personal identification when I see it. |
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17 Oct 12 - 06:47 PM (#3421627) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: pdq What Linda Ronstadt did in Las Vegas was badmouth G. W. Bush and dedicate three consecutive songs to him: "Your No Good", "Straighten Up and Fly Right" and one more. By that time, the crowd was filing out of the room and demanding refunds. They got 'em. The Dixie Chicks also badmouthed G. W Bush and said they were ashamed to be from Texas because of him, and that he was not their president. Note, this political crap is abusive of a paying audience and has little/nothing to do with the music. Reasonable topical songs like "Over the Hill to the Poorhouse", "Mary of the Wild Moor", "A Drunkard's Dream" and numerous other songs are reasonable fair. They aren't political in the same way as a song that proclaims "I Hate...". |
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17 Oct 12 - 06:59 PM (#3421636) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: Richard Bridge 3 cheers for Ronstadt and the Dixie Chicks. Hate thier music: love their politics. |
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17 Oct 12 - 06:59 PM (#3421637) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: dick greenhaus Lots of C&W types are conservatives. I'm not soure why Woody Guthrie is considered a folksinger when Brry Sandler (Green Berets) and Merle Haggard (Okie FRom Muscogee) aren't. I'd guess that most gospel siners tend to lean right, too. |
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17 Oct 12 - 07:00 PM (#3421638) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: Richard Bridge PS - refunds should not have been given. They paid to see and hear Ronstadt. |
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17 Oct 12 - 08:04 PM (#3421676) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: Elmore Arlo endorsed Ron Paul. I believe Eric Darling was some sort of conservative. |
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17 Oct 12 - 08:08 PM (#3421680) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: Bobert Here's the deal... Leave yer politics off the stage... Talk as much other shit as you want but if you bring yer politics you won't get future bookings... And, yes, this from me... B~ |
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17 Oct 12 - 08:31 PM (#3421694) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: GUEST,999 Do it with the song. That's why people are there. They will spin it the way they want. |
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17 Oct 12 - 08:40 PM (#3421700) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: GUEST,999 "It ain't my job to tell you what to think. It is my job to give you something to think about." One of two smart things I ever said in my life. Since I ken you want the other: "Ignorance is a state of mind located between I don't know and I don't care." It isn't much to show for 65 years, but some of us are slow thinkers. |
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17 Oct 12 - 08:50 PM (#3421709) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: Bobert Yeah, brucie...Hide yer politics inside the songs... B~ |
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17 Oct 12 - 09:20 PM (#3421725) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: Larry The Radio Guy For so many performers their politics is a big part of who they are. I think it's unfortunate that some of you wouldn't book a person who espoused the essential part of their 'being'. Bobert, pdq, kendall, Will Fly, Cathy.... Would you have boycotted or felt uncomfortable at concerts by Woody Guthrie or Utah Philips because they were so political? |
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17 Oct 12 - 09:34 PM (#3421731) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: Gibb Sahib and probably one whose national history is less extensive than the foundations of my house. Congrats on having an old house (foundation). I hope everyone living in a nation-state formed less than a few hundred years ago (i.e. most of the world) feels appropriately inferior and unqualified to state their opinions. |
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17 Oct 12 - 09:37 PM (#3421733) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: GUEST,999 People who book will, IF it pleases their clientelle/cleantell/ cleantil audience. |
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17 Oct 12 - 09:44 PM (#3421738) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: Richard Bridge Where would the Sex Pistols have been without rage at the status quo (not necessarily the band of that name)? It will be a sad day when musicians are reduced to being mere entertainers. Some others whose politics were important: Bob Marley Woody Guthrie The Stranglers Pete Seeger Ewan MacColl Bob Dylan Yellowman Billy Bragg |
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17 Oct 12 - 10:02 PM (#3421744) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: Bobert Times have changed, Larry-S... There was a 30% unionized country in Woody's day with politicians supporting them... Now it's down to less than 10% with an all out war on unions... B~ |
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17 Oct 12 - 10:02 PM (#3421745) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: Songwronger A lot of hymn singers are conservative. Bible-belt, backwoods hymns. Beautiful stuff, sung by conservative people. No dope, abortions and Revenuers for them. The main character in the movie Bob Roberts is a conservative folkie, as I recall. |
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17 Oct 12 - 10:37 PM (#3421757) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: Effsee Mr Campin..."There is a well known singer-songwriter in the UK scene who throws anti-abortionist propaganda into his act. I've never seen or heard the poisonous little shit and never intend to. That's completely beyond anything I regard as tolerable"... Mr Campin, if that is the person who I think you are referring too, that is probably the most offensive remark I have ever encountered on Mudcat.If you have never seen him, then you know nothing! |
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17 Oct 12 - 10:44 PM (#3421759) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: GUEST,999 "A lot of hymn singers are conservative." A lot of pig fuckers are, too, but there's a difference between knowing one and being one. (That's to do with your politicians, not you.) |
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17 Oct 12 - 11:04 PM (#3421765) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: Bobert I done a lot of spirituals... None about either liberal or conservative... Me??? They liberal... But to others??? Hearing them they hear what they want to hear... That's okay... B~ |
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18 Oct 12 - 12:24 AM (#3421785) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: Richard Bridge If living was a thing that money could buy Then the rich would live, and the poor would die All my trials, Lord Soon be over. No, nothing political there. Much. |
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18 Oct 12 - 02:06 AM (#3421800) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: musicmick Dick Greenhaus nailed this one. Most traditional songs reflect trditional values and, in today's world, would be considered consrvative. There are a heck of a lot more old songs about Adam and Eve than there are about evolution and the Wee Cooper of Fife would be arrested for spousal abuse. Almost all the great old Country and Western stars were evangelical and politically in line with John Wayne. It is our own prejudice that calls Tom Paxton a folksinger but denies that designation to Barry Sandler, Bill Monroe or Whispering Bill Anderson. There are scads of Republican folksingers out there but we deny them because they don't agree with us. |
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18 Oct 12 - 02:34 AM (#3421803) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: Richard Bridge There are plenty of folk songs about the servant shagging the master's wife. |
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18 Oct 12 - 03:03 AM (#3421805) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: Jim Carroll 'To censor or not to censor; that is the question'. "If living was a thing that money could buy Then the rich would live, and the poor would die" Sam Larner said that - wonder if the pro-censorship mob here would have given him a booking?? Jim Carroll |
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18 Oct 12 - 04:31 AM (#3421830) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: MGM·Lion My views are possibly slightly right of centre these days ~~ tho not nearly so much so as some like Shaw, Woodson, Carroll, Bridge, who have taken it on themselves to turn virulently and unaccountably abusive because I couldn't go all the way along with all their explicitly and avowedly left-oriented asseverations, have appeared to assume ~~ but my tastes [like those of my dear dead friend Peter Bellamy, cited above by Jack Campin] are quite definitely towards the traditional, not in accord with Guest Tony's "impression ... that conservatives who are inclined toward folk music usually go with country-western/bluegrass instead". As Acorn remarks above,"You don't have to support hunting to sing a hunting song any more than you have to be a psychopath to sing a murder ballad" - I remember Norma Waterson, whom I was interviewing back in the 1970s along with Martin Carthy for Folk Review, using exactly this example in relation to her own opinions and singing practice. ~M~ |
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18 Oct 12 - 05:07 AM (#3421838) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: Jim Carroll "who have taken it on themselves to turn virulently and unaccountably abusive" Mike - you have been as abusively nasty to others ("Jew baiter" springs to mind) as they have been to you. Personally, I am making an effort - would be very obliged if you wold do the same (have resisted borrowing your own phrase "diddums"). Jim Carroll |
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18 Oct 12 - 05:20 AM (#3421841) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: stallion mmmm piss and wind, Karma good people, No one is truly objective and everyones political views are informed by their society and their perceived place in it. Right and Left have despots and politicians. Actually, I think most human beings are benevolent, some are not and use whichever of the two devices suffice to gain power over their society to enable them to improve their and their offspring to gain an advantageous position regarding the rest. It is that inequity that causes discord most off which falls on deaf ears, some of the benevolent people with a conscience reach a position where they have a platform and use it to draw attention to the inequity. Some in that audience will empathise and recognise the condition being pointed out, others will feel very uncomfortable because their conscience agrees with the sentiment but has too much to lose to embrace it and some will be re-inforced in their doctrine and opinions and use it as an excuse to be more extreme. Forget about left and right and examine just why you are offended? Accept that some people are different and learn to live with it. To react out of chagrin maybe suggests one hasn't thought it through properly, we are better than that, much better than that. Peter |
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18 Oct 12 - 05:24 AM (#3421844) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: Jim McLean Andrew Fletcher of Saltoun, an opponent of the Scottish union with England in 1707, wrote 'I knew a very wise man that believed if a man were permitted to make all the ballads, he need not care who should make the laws of a nation, and we find that most of the ancient legislators thought that they could not reform the manners of a city without the help of a lyric, and sometimes of a dramatic poet'. |
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18 Oct 12 - 05:32 AM (#3421846) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: Jack Campin ...a quote that might be repeated less often if people knew what Fletcher went on to say in the same paragraph. |
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18 Oct 12 - 05:46 AM (#3421855) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: Jim Carroll "There are plenty of folk songs about the servant shagging the master's wife." And two wonderful ballads named 'Little Musgrave and Lady Barnard' and 'Child Owlett' about the master's wife shagging a servant. Jim Carroll |
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18 Oct 12 - 05:49 AM (#3421857) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: MGM·Lion Jim ~~ Point very much taken. Your name was out of place in that list. The others not so. Regards ~Michael~ |
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18 Oct 12 - 06:05 AM (#3421866) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: Jim Carroll Don't mention it Mike - let's both try harder in future. Jim Carroll |
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18 Oct 12 - 06:34 AM (#3421881) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: Leadfingers One Right Wing Folkie of my acquaintence was a tad concerned that his friendship with Robb Johnston (VERY Talented Left Wing Songriter) might be a drawback his Political Ambition ! And Ron Shuttleworth , writer of SUPERB parodies , was definately on the Right Wing . |
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18 Oct 12 - 08:10 AM (#3421930) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: Allan Conn "and the Wee Cooper of Fife would be arrested for spousal abuse" We used to go to a singing club in Selkirk and the woman running it had chosen to do 'Wee Cooper of Fife' one week. The following week we were about to do it again when two po-faced women both declared that we couldn't possibly do that song as it stood and one produced new lyrics which she had written herself - which in all truth were pretty badly written anyway! The majority there looked slightly bewildered by it all. Some didn't say anything but gave each other exasperated looks. Various other people suggested that the song was of its time, was a humorous song anyway, and that singing it didn't mean one was condoning domestic abuse. One of the complainers then went into a long lecture about the evils of domestic abuse which was aimed primarily at me - presumably because I was the only male in the room. I must add I've never a woman in my life! Anyway the woman was being more than a bit tedious but I could have lived with that, however my other half took great objection to me being picked on and she upped and left with me in tow - as I needed a lift home :-) |
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18 Oct 12 - 08:19 AM (#3421932) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: Stringsinger Bascom Lamarr Lunsford criticized Pete Seeger for singing "Down on Penny's Farm" stating vociferously that the original tune was "Robertson's Farm" and that the employer "loved" his workers and they wouldn't complain. I suspect overt racism here. It has to be remembered that the "folk boom" started with the interest of the Left Wing Movement, spearheaded by Pete Seeger, including many prominent folklorists of the day, offshoots of the Popular Front period. Republicans have been traditionally wealthy individuals who would not relate to the music of the "masses". However, in the South, there are plenty of bluegrass and old time musicians who are quite conservative or even radically right wing. |
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18 Oct 12 - 08:48 AM (#3421945) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: GUEST,Desi C Thankfully from my experience politics rarely rears it's ugly heap openly in Folk Clubs here. Even political animals like myself who do broach the subject do it rarely and it doesn't seem to illicit much interest. I suppose it's fair to say politics was more a part of the 1960's Folk revival, but that was mainly quite Liberal possibly quasi communist in nature with anti nuclear protests, civil rights etc. Given that both Liberals and Conservatists in the UK are much the same thing and mostly for the very rich, and inceasingly against feee speech, I would class most Folk Club goers as old fashioned liberal or socialist in nature but I wouldn't describe them overal in nature as particularly political. It'll be interesting to scroll down and read others comments |
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18 Oct 12 - 09:41 AM (#3421972) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: musicmick The connection between the left and folk music, in the USA, stems from the series of concerts sponsered by unions in New York city, in the 1940s. The performers included youngsters like Pete Seeger, Cisco Houston, Leadbelly, Woody Guthry, Lee Hayes and Josh White. Those guys worked cheap and they were, all, well to the left of center. Union locals, in other towns followed suit so Win Strake, in Chicago, George Britton, in Philadelphia and Sam Hinton, on the coast stared singing folksongs for their living. Oh, I forgot Carl Sandburg, who endd his poetry reading with a short folk concert. But the people, whose songs these were, were as traditional intheir values as they had always been. It was the left who politicized folk singing. |
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18 Oct 12 - 10:06 AM (#3421988) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: Howard Jones I suspect there's a greater range of political opinions than some on the left would like to believe. It's certainly true that folk song is more likely to be used to express left wing political views rather than those on the right, and those singers who are most overtly political tend to be from the left. However the left's caricature of the Tories as rich toffs ignores the fact that they manage to attract a sizeable number of working-class voters I don't agree that Peter Bellamy's political views were all that evident from his singing, certainly not compared with the likes of say Dick Gaughan. As for abortion, that is a matter of conscience rather than falling on one side or another of the political divide. It is certainly true that people espousing left-wing views on the folk scene probably feel they are likely to get a sympathetic reception. I think it is also true that those who don't share those views prefer keep quiet rather than get into arguments over politics when they just want to enjoy the music. The sort of responses this thread has generated indicates why. |
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18 Oct 12 - 11:00 AM (#3422016) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: Elmore Actually, I was attracted to folk music by topical (lefty) folk singers. I found it refreshing that someone would be willing to express her true beliefs on stage. That was the sixties.Later I got into more traditional music. I don't care what Peter Bellamy's politics were. I loved his songs, even loved his voice. |
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18 Oct 12 - 11:59 AM (#3422058) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: Richard Bridge I find Bellamy's politics all too evident in his work apart from the Young Tradition, and very offputting. As to the prevalence (to the extent that there is any such) of working class support for the present government, may I borrow and subvert the expression "Lions led by donkeys" and say "Donkeys led by liars"? Indeed most of that IMHO comes from a scurrilous campaign of disinformation about the recipients of benefits so that the donkeys will vote against the interests of themselves and their class. |
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18 Oct 12 - 12:41 PM (#3422085) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: Stringsinger Musicmick, your historical view of folk music USA is completely accurate. Much of it was brought to the public by the influenced by the New Popular Front headed by CPUSA leader Earl Browder attempting to bring the culture of the "masses" into prominence. It has to be said that "agit-prop"music has a venerable history in the U.S. even prior to Joe Hill when you find ideology in earlier forms of what we call folk music, the political ballads such as Yankee Doodle, Lilibulero, The World Upside Down and early protest music. Calypso and Jamaican music can be classified as "agit-prop" as well. Even Chopin wrote a "Revolutionary Etude". Beethoven had an axe to grind also. You might be surprised to find that nursery rhymes were originally political statements such as "Little Jack Horner" (Archibald) and "Mary, Mary Quite Contrary" (Mary Queen of Scots). A good song is a good song, agit prop or not, regardless of the motive for writing it. |
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18 Oct 12 - 12:46 PM (#3422089) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: MGM·Lion Doesn't the rather quaint American habit of giving their children names redolent of ancient nobility tend to rebound absurdly? Fancy the CPUSA leader being called Earl! ~M~ |
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18 Oct 12 - 03:23 PM (#3422210) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: Jim Carroll "The connection between the left and folk music, in the USA...." The politics of folk song in Britain is a multi-faceted one. It was certainly the left who set the ball rolling there with the left wing Workers Music Association introducing MacColl and Lloyd to the public and later setting up Topic Records. Alan Lomax, on the run from McCarthy's thugs, prodded the BBC into embarking on the mopping up campaign of recording what was still to be found in the field. Lloyd and MacColl, both left wingers, were in the forefront of the revival involved in setting up one of the earliest folk clubs. However, the concept of an artistically creative working class making their own songs and claiming them as their own was a revolutionary concept in itself - still difficult for some people to get their heads around. This is not to say that all our traditional singers queued up at the polls to vote for the Labour or Communist parties, but many of them where aware of the social and historical significance of the song. Go and listen to Harry Cox spitting feathers about the forcible enclosure of common land after having sung Van Dieman's Land, or commenting "that's what the buggers thought of us", after singing Betsy the Serving maid (son of wealthy family falls in love with a servant, parents deport her to America, son dies of grief). Richard's quote: "If living was a thing that money could buy Then the rich would live, and the poor would die" was recited to MacColl and Parker by Sam Larner during the making of 'Singing the Fishing' Walter Pardon sang the Agricultural Trades Union Song, The Old Man's Advice, and spoke with pride about his family's part in re-establishing the union in East Anglia. I find it offensive that anybody should attempt to censor our folksongs because they don't happen to fit into their own particular mindset - they have always been a part of peoples' self expression and long may that continue to be the case. Jim Carroll |
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18 Oct 12 - 04:49 PM (#3422268) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: GUEST,Tony As always, we're talking at cross-purposes – some of us construing "folk music" to mean what we find in the Folk bin of a US record store, others adhering to a 1950-something definition that hardly anyone has ever heard of even in the UK. I assumed Cathy was talking about folk musicians in the former sense, since she said she's American and since her second post mentioned "medium to large venues." |
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18 Oct 12 - 11:35 PM (#3422437) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: musicmick Yes, Stringsinger, and Rockaby Baby was about Chrles II or someone, remarkably, like him. Tony is using the pop meaning of folk music (A song sung by its composer, accompaned on acoustic guitar unless, of course, the song is played on a Country station.) I have always admired the Irish, who have maintained the popularity of their trafitional music. Americans seem embarrassed about our trad and have adopted the "folk bin" redefining of folk music. Our ubiquitous singer/songwriters include few, or none, Cyril Tawneys, Pete St. Johns or Ewan MacColls. I hope that Tony is wrong. The UK's trove of folk treasures deserved to be heard. |
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19 Oct 12 - 04:23 AM (#3422477) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: Howard Jones The OP was clearly American but appeared to be inviting comparison with the UK. |
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19 Oct 12 - 05:35 AM (#3422491) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: GUEST,davemc I guess the unwelcoming and closed minds in most folk clubs are likely to put off most people whose politics are moderately right of centre. You're unlikely to get many bookings unless you either completely censor your politics or parrot the leftie banalities. Choose another genre guys: "So move along, get along, move along, get along, Go, move, shift" as Jimmy of Salford might say. |
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19 Oct 12 - 05:44 AM (#3422492) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: GUEST,raymond greenoaken >I find Bellamy's politics all too evident in his work< Know what you mean, Richard: all that preachy Lefty stuff like All In A Day, Pilgrim's Way, Death Of Bill Brown, Farewell To The Land. The man had no shame. |
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19 Oct 12 - 07:09 AM (#3422519) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge I `ad that "Breezie" in my cab the other day. `e`d been up at `erga`s the night before doing a couple of numbers. `e was on `is way down to Wadebridge for a spot of R&R following the rucus that night. I said, "Morning John, you look a bit miffed. What`s `appened? Your light to moderate veered to gale force?" `e said , "Nah Jim. I did me bit and said it was all in aid of the F.A.C. and would people like to contribute. They chucked me out!" I said, "I`m not surprised, raising dosh for the "Fellowship of Allied Conservatives" in a club like that." `e said, "It wasn`t for them. It was for "Folk Against Cancer!!" Whaddam I Like?? |
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19 Oct 12 - 08:27 AM (#3422561) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: Jim McLean Jack, the lines immediately following my quote from Fletcher of Saltoun prove the effectiveness of ballad making, although he might have disapproved of the results. |
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19 Oct 12 - 09:12 AM (#3422584) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: GUEST I recently did a song that was political at a festival. It was titled "I'll Tell You the Good Things Our Government's Done, with apologies to Tom Paxton." I told the audience I'd been working on the song since 1978. A small untruth which I'm sure will be overlooked by history. It went like this with two other voices harmonizing on the word 'done'. Deep breath and "I'll tell you the good things our government's done." Expel remaining air, look around the audience, step back and wait. It took about five seconds of silence and the laughter started. It lasted substantially longer than the song. |
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19 Oct 12 - 10:55 AM (#3422638) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: GUEST |
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19 Oct 12 - 10:59 AM (#3422642) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers Eric D From: GUEST Eric Darling was a Libertarian I believed he was an Ayn Rand follower. I am not aware he wrote or sang political songs and/or preached to the audience Having said that,he was an incredible 12 string guitarist; on par with Dick Rosmini and Fred Gerlach |
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19 Oct 12 - 11:25 AM (#3422653) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: GUEST,sciencegeek there has always been music that was used to thwart the "status quo".. otherwise, Cromwell wouldn't have felt the need to try to eliminate those pesky travelling harpers or hang the pipers. Or consider those "darky" songs that helped runaway slaves find their way to freedom. Very illegal activity for the time. As long as there are folks who feel the need to impose their will on others... and those others aren't real pleased with that... there will be unrest, dissention, etc. As part of the lets's put Americans to work & get the us the heck out of this depression, there was a fair amount of $ invested in "the Arts"... and that included preserving traditional music of all kinds. What I see happening today is a lot of closed minded folks who want the rest of us to be as ass backwards as them... and a bunch of wealthy folks who want to turn democracy into an oligarchy, manipulating those folks into supporting them. I am a practicing GDI... god damn independent who preferes to think for herself and resents oppression of any sort. |
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19 Oct 12 - 04:47 PM (#3422799) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: Wolfgang This thread's a good enough reason to reinstate my cookie. Even folksongs decrying injustice are not "left" by default. If I look through the titles of my copy of the "Liederbuch der Hitler Jugend" (songbook of the Hitler youth) I can see a lot of songs that originally (and after the twelve years) belong(ed) to the Left. "Brueder zur Sonne, zur Freiheit" (brethren, towards to sun and the freedom) is a trade union song still sung today by German Social Democrats at the end of each party convention. And, yes, it was sung by the Hitler youth too. Songs from peasant uprisings, songs against feudalism, against injustice of capitalism, are all found in that book. Even the title of that Liederbuch (Uns geht die Sonne nie unter, the sun never sets for us) is a line from one of my all time favourite German folksongs praising the free life instead of the life of the bourgeoisie. BTW, the Nazi's Horst Wessel Lied used the tune from an older folksong. Folksongs in Germany today can be sung by the Left (rather not by the extreme Left) and by the (extreme) Right. Well, but then, the S in NSDAP stood for "Sozialistische". Wolfgang |
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19 Oct 12 - 04:52 PM (#3422801) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: MartinRyan Hi Wolfgang! I clicked on this thread grudgingly, expecting it to bring out my cormudgeonly soul - and found you had just posted! Been wondering where you were... Good to hear from you. Regards |
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19 Oct 12 - 05:37 PM (#3422820) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: GUEST,Tony quote: I hope that Tony is wrong. The UK's trove of folk treasures deserved to be heard. Musicmick, you're mixing up two different ideas: 1. Traditional music should be preserved. I agree completely and am very active in that preservation. 2. The term "folk music" can only be used to mean traditional music. Good luck with that. Maybe you should talk to the French Academy. In English (or, as it really should be called now, American), usage determines the meaning of a word. I often wonder how the preservation of traditional music is affected by its being associated with people who get bent out of shape at the use of a word to mean what 99% of the population think it means. If the general public ever does become aware of the music described in that 1950-whatever definition, they'll almost certainly call it "nerd music." |
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19 Oct 12 - 05:42 PM (#3422821) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: GUEST,Tony Another reason why I thought Cathy was using "folk singers" in the vernacular sense (apart from her being an American and mentioning larger venues than any trad singer would ever get here) is the fact that she said they talked liberal politics on stage. That's actually the best clue. It even narrows it down to a small number of specific "folk" singers. |
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19 Oct 12 - 07:08 PM (#3422863) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: musicmick Tony, "Folk songs" is not the only term to be commandeered and redefined. "Gay" doesn't seem to mean what it used to, either. The trouble is that while "gay" has enough synonyms to replace the original, "folk songs" does not. ("Trad" is insufficient because tradition, by nature, implies repeated usage, generally oer generations. One can no more write a traditional song than make an antique.) Folk songs, unlike other songs are defined by their tranmission or collective creation. Thus, older songs that have survived by popular repitition (Like "Happy Birthday", "Three Blind Mice", "Silent Night") live, not bcause of popular recordings. but through our own singing. Even songs that are created by groups (Like the Korean War version of "Bless 'Em All") are of and by the "folk". I understand that some very old songs do not experience the changes of what we used to call the "Folk Process". I am thinking of hymns and anthems. So, "Folk" is an umbrella but it's not limitless. It never meant any song written with accoustic accompaniment. If it did, Jaques Brell or Antonio Carlos Jobim would be the best folksinger of them all |
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19 Oct 12 - 08:11 PM (#3422882) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: pdq Too many Lefties have tried to co-opt Folk Music and use it for their political purposes. Social comentary is not the same as politics. Even Jerry Garcia said he was tired of people trying to use The Sixties to push their politics. He made it clear that the message was social change, not political change. An old Appalacian singing about the poor quality and high price of food is social commentary, not political. A Blues singer telling us how mean his old lady is? That's social also, not political. |
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19 Oct 12 - 09:09 PM (#3422896) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: oldhippie pdq - your post "It's quite refreshing to listen to Doc Watson, Ian & Sylvia, Burl Ives and other who left politics out of their music." Have you never listened to Burl's "50 Years From Now"? |
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19 Oct 12 - 09:28 PM (#3422901) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: pdq Sorry, I have not heard "50 Years from Now". I will try to correct this lacuna. However, did you know that Burl Ives was a 33rd degree Mason (highest possible) and a Republican? |
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20 Oct 12 - 12:03 AM (#3422920) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: musicmick Burl Ives was a "friendly" withess during the blacklist years. He was considered an outcast by the folk establishment. Years later, at a Weavers reunion concert, a very old and very sick Burl Ives appeared on stage and Pete Seeger, who had been hurt by Ives' testamony, embraced him. I wrote, at the time, that Pete did an admirable thing but I kind of wished he had used him as a urinal, first. |
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20 Oct 12 - 01:31 AM (#3422932) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: Larry The Radio Guy I'd like to address briefly pdq's very important point: "Too many Lefties have tried to co-opt Folk Music and use it for their political purposes. Social comentary is not the same as politics"...........An old Appalacian singing about the poor quality and high price of food is social commentary, not political. For the most part I agree. Even Linda Ronstadt dedicating "You're No Good" to George W. Bush.....while inwardly I cheer....I also recognize it's a bit cheap. But I think that most social commentary is "small p" political...particularly when we know that even Democrats (or, in Canada, NDP'ers) who espouse concern for the poor sometimes end up supporting policies that are the antithesis to that....and most political issues are debatable. Yet.....for those of us who believe in what I consider to be 'good' values (eg. compassion, equality, respect, openness to different), ideas, I think we have a duty to communicate those values in our performances and our songs (include the inbetween patter). So, for example, when Mitt Romney makes comments like "I'm not concerned about the very poor", I think folksingers would be neglecting their duty if they didn't at least make fun of these comments.....and to demonstrate as effectively as possible how this is not in line with the values that many of us 'folk singers' believe in. I do agree that somebody with conservative/republican sentiments very much has the right to write songs and to be heard. And.....if they can communicate in a way that is consistent with what I believe are positive values, I'll listen to them. In fact, I think Clint Eastwood, as a movie director and script writer, is one 'conservative' who does a beautiful job of that....and I love the humanity that is in most of his movies. Off hand I can't think of any 'republican' type folk singers/writers who do that (though I'm sure some exist). I agree there are a lot of 'lefties' who shove diatribes down our throats, and I personally find them boring. On the other hand there are so many like Utah Phillips, Tom Paxton, Fred Eaglesmith (who no longer identifies himself as a 'lefty'), Peter, Paul & Mary, Bruce Springsteen, Cheryl Wheeler, etc. who are clearly 'liberal' or left-wing and bring their small 'p' political beliefs to their performances....and they're inspiring! But I do wonder if there are any 'Clint Eastwoods' in the folk music world. People who bring an intelligent and thoughtful conservative sentiment that can find the 'meeting place' between what we think of as left wing or 'liberal', and those that some Republicans might also embrace? |
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20 Oct 12 - 04:30 AM (#3422955) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: Richard Bridge The most striking constant feature of Eastwood's film output is his support of vigilantism and opposition to legal rights. Hardly "intelligent and thoughtful". |
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20 Oct 12 - 07:57 AM (#3423003) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: Larry The Radio Guy While I don't want to turn this thread into a Clint Eastwood debate, the films I'm thinking of include the ones that I and most critics hail as thoughtful, 'human' (in it's most positive sense)....with a passion rather than an opposition to people's rights. Eg. Mystic River, Bird, Unforgiven, Million Dollar Baby, maybe even Bronco Billy. |
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20 Oct 12 - 09:08 AM (#3423018) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: GUEST,Desi C I must take issue with Howard Jones that the right wing conservative attract a lot of working class voters, That is purely down to two facts. One- 80% of British voters are rather particularly ignorant, the vote these days purely on what the media instruct them to do. For instance when the Daily Mirror was a left wing Socialist newspaper and had thge biggest circulation, most people voted Labour. These days the vast majority of our media is right wing including the very biased BBC. And not surprisingly The Sun owned by who sponsors the Conservative party (many would say in his pocket, instructs it's politically ignorant readership who to vote for. Thereore as the Sun attracts the most ignorant readers they are merely doing what they're told, not out of any special allegiance to the Conservative. To back this up you only have to remember when the Sun said vote Labour, those reliable Sun readers did as they were told. I rest my case ;) |
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20 Oct 12 - 09:18 AM (#3423020) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: pdq Subject: RE: Is Burl Ives underated? From: pdq Date: 21 Oct 10 - 02:12 PM "Ives was identified in the 1950 pamphlet Red Channels and blacklisted as an entertainer with supposed Communist ties. In 1952 he cooperated with the House Unamerican Activities Committee (HUAC) and agreed to testify. He stated that he was not a member of the Communist Party but that he had attended various union meetings with fellow folk singer Pete Seeger simply to stay in touch with working folk. He stated: 'You know who my friends are; you will have to ask them if they are Communists.'" That was all he said about Pete Seeger. Lefties wanted him to ignore the sapoena and risk jail time. He chose to respect the authority of the House and attend as did Elia Kazan, Humphrey Bogart, and the vast majority of those who received a summons. |
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20 Oct 12 - 09:40 AM (#3423025) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: Elmore Burl's best album was "Butrl Ives Sings for the House Unamerican Activities Committee" (HUAC) |
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20 Oct 12 - 10:07 AM (#3423039) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: Howard Jones Desi C, that seems a remarkably condescending opinion of the working classes. Do have the same objections to those poor ignoramuses who vote Labour because their union tells them to? Political allegiances are complicated things, and people's views don't always fit into convenient categories. Large numbers of the working class have been traditionally conservative, with a small c if not a large one, and plenty of middle-class people vote Labour. Besides, why should someone's political views have a bearing on their musical preferences? I think the question arises because those who feel strongly about politics tend to view everything through a political prism, including music. They find it difficult to understand that others may not regard music in the same way, and that people who share their taste in music may possibly not share their political beliefs. |
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20 Oct 12 - 11:26 AM (#3423071) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: Richard Bridge What DesiC says is largely right if simplistic (and the BBC is not wholly right-wing as is evidenced by the constant war against it by doctrinaire free-marketeers). However it is overgenerous to the current right-wing (as distinct from the ultra-right fascistic racistic parties like the BNP EDL etc) and does lend some credibility to the not quite so fascistic racist right like UKIP whose entire "philosophy" can be summed up as "Wogs begin at Calais". The current UK lever of choice of the right to move the working class to vote conservative is the ceaseless campaign of bigotry and vilification against the unwaged and disabled. Even the parts of conservative plans to force the unwaged into ever more desperate attempts to find work are part of the attack against the working class, for it only increases the pool of labour which must then compete in capitalist terms against each other so driving wages downwards - to the benefit of capitalists who may exploit labour by the use of zero-hours part-time contracts (which, incidentally reduce tax take and so increase the deficit - clear evidence that the strategy of war on the poor is not evidence-based but dogma-driven). But to return to "conservatism", the basic credo of conservatism is to preserve privilege and entitlement - the advantage of the ruling class. Folk music is not the music of the ruling classes. It is the expression - at its most basic - of what were the peasant classes: the very people that the ruling classes exploit. A conservative folk singer is at best a mere parrot, at worst a quisling. Republicans, as far as I can see, are even worse, comprised of oppressors and the tools of oppressors swallowing the propaganda of multi-billionaires. In both the UK and the USA the skewness of income distribution has increased and is increasing. The poor do not even get the crumbs from the rich man's table that "trickle down" economics seeks to deceive that they will receive. Republicans and conservatives not only defend but aid that tendency. How can they sing the songs of the oppressed when they are the oppressors? |
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20 Oct 12 - 03:57 PM (#3423175) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: dick greenhaus Folks here seem to be much more preoccupied by "Republican or Conservative songs" rather than "Republican or Conservative singers ." |
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20 Oct 12 - 04:36 PM (#3423185) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: Leadfingers Desi C has it right ! Some years back there was a survey which indicated that more than 60% of Sun readers , at a time when it was nearly as hard right as the Dirty Mail , thought it was a Left wing paper . |
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21 Oct 12 - 04:26 AM (#3423393) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: GUEST,Don Wise Arlo Guthrie is quite open about being a card-carrying Republican. He is also quite open in his rejection of various current Republican 'policies'. |
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21 Oct 12 - 04:53 AM (#3423400) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: MGM·Lion The confusion over thinking The Sun a left-wing paper emanated from the fact that it was aimed in style as what were considered the tastes and preferences of the working-class, in conscious imitation of the style of the Mirror, which did lean leftwards, but a bit more 'daring' ~~ eg daily p3 nude rather than the suggestive but actually v prudish near-nudity often to be seen in the Mirror. ~M~ |
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21 Oct 12 - 08:18 AM (#3423482) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: GUEST,Desi C Howard I think you only make my point for me. Wha tI Was saying and maybe didn't make clear, is that the English, generally and over all 'classes' are very politically naieve, if not indeed ignorant. You'll not get any more intelligent political debate from a rich man in a wine bar than you will from a union worker in his pub. For instance just a couple of years ago we were ALL very angry at the revelation that approx 60% of MP's were fraudently claiming expenses, and the pitifully few prosecutions only added to the Fraud. just 9 months into the Condem gov't's hate campain against the out of work and the Disabled and hate crimes against those groups had risen by 36%, and the government fraud largely forgotten A hate campaign conduced ny Conservatives and Lib Dems alike and added to by Labour through their silence. That hate crime has now risen by almost 60% and The biggest reason for that is largely ignorant British electorate, en masse, reading and listening to government run media (and vice versa) Who haven't the inteligence to look up the facts and find out that nearly All the Govt 'facts'are 99% lies. It's Nazi propoganda happening all over again to make us think those LEAST responsible caused the recession. I'm middle class by the way |
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23 Oct 12 - 06:24 AM (#3424649) Subject: RE: Republican or Conservative folk singers From: GUEST,henryp Romney is trying to attract the Hispanic vote. In Miami, after Romney wrapped up and stepped off stage, a Cuban band called Havana Soul stepped in. Their second song was Guantanamera. Perhaps they didn't know its origin. |