Triangle Fire ala DHAKA, Bangladesh

28 Nov 12 - 07:16 AM (#3443562)
Subject: Triangle Fire ala DHAKA, Bangladesh
From: sciencegeek

In 1911, New York City was the site of the worst industrial accident in its history... 146 young immigrant women burned to death in a sweatshop because the doors were locked by the mangers.

Just a few days ago, 111 mostly young women died in a tragic replay of that earlier disaster. How many garments made by those doomed women were sold this past weekend during the Black Friday shopping frenzy?

There's going to be a lot of finger pointing and some arrests have been made... but we to consider the ultimate causes of this situation... because this is not the first and certainly not the last such tragedy to happen in the name of "affordable/cheap" products.

---

28 Nov 12 - 07:20 AM (#3443564)
Subject: RE: Triangle Fire ala DHAKA, Bangladesh
From: kendall

Proving again that we don't learn from history.

I avoid cheap foreign goods whenever possible.

---

28 Nov 12 - 08:12 AM (#3443588)
Subject: RE: Triangle Fire ala DHAKA, Bangladesh
From: sciencegeek

When Walmart came to my area, I knew that most of the local businesses were on borrowed time. And after 15 years, only those with a secure niche are still around. When they retire, well who knows??? Our local music stores... I'll give a plug to Buzzo - one of a kind if ever there was one... hang in there. but what if school music programs are cut????

So now I have little choice to buy local... cause Walmart is the last one standing... if I can't find it at the local goodwill stores.

I haven't shopped in a mall in decades, but it seems you have to look under a rock to find made in USA - all of it, not just assembled here.

Answers??? still looking...

---

28 Nov 12 - 09:19 AM (#3443638)
Subject: RE: Triangle Fire ala DHAKA, Bangladesh
From: GUEST,Grishka

In our present world economy, production costs of most consumer goods are only a small percentage of the retail price. Therefore, if we insisted on some minimal social and ecological standards, we would hardly notice the price difference - and the largest part of that would go to finance independent certification and controlling agencies.

Just shout for it at Walmart etc. If they see that we really want it, they will be happy to serve.

Local production? A good idea mainly for food.

My non-expert opinion.

---

28 Nov 12 - 12:45 PM (#3443769)
Subject: RE: Triangle Fire ala DHAKA, Bangladesh
From: sciencegeek

"Local production? A good idea mainly for food.

My non-expert opinion. "

Growing up in the '50's & '60's, there was a small, local company called the Knit Mill.... they had the machines that could make knitted goods like sweaters, etc. Or could buy the yarns & patterns to make you own. It was small, family owned & made a good living for everyone on the payroll. No need to create a million of the same thing for the box stores... just serve their local area. And that was the pattern all over - before the federally funded superhighways & "cheap" fuel made consolidation into bloated megacorps the norm.

The biggest issue with our system is a combination of waste ( gas & resources) and too many middlemen all getting their "share"... not to mention overblown salaries for the ones at the top.

---

28 Nov 12 - 12:55 PM (#3443771)
Subject: RE: Triangle Fire ala DHAKA, Bangladesh
From: Ron Davies

The Triangle Fire was the first thing I thought of also in reference to this latest tragedy.


It does seem that Walmart was one of the big customers of the factory where this occurred.

Now is the time to shame Walmart into pressuring their suppliers for better safety conditions--and working conditions in general.

It's thoroughly disgusting that any company should countenance this sort of situation--even race-to-the-bottom champion Walmart.

---

28 Nov 12 - 01:29 PM (#3443791)
Subject: RE: Triangle Fire ala DHAKA, Bangladesh
From: sciencegeek

well... Walmart has made the claim that they had stopped doing business with that company when they failed a checklist of requirements to be a provider...

however, the intermediary supplier still bought from that factory... can anyone say loophole. well that supplier has just the Walmart account... but will they closely screen the replacement???

an independent auditor might be needed to ensure compliance... or least reassure consumers...

---

28 Nov 12 - 02:18 PM (#3443823)
Subject: RE: Triangle Fire ala DHAKA, Bangladesh
From: Brian May

Why is it Walmart's responsibility?

I lived in Bangladesh for a year flying with their national airline (to be avoided). I lived close to factories like this, it's difficult not to.

The levels of corruption are staggering, the Bangladesh union representative interviewed said, nothing happens . . . they (the government) set up an inquiry who make recommendations, the owners then pay somebody and everything continues as before.

To get my Bangladesh flight engineers licence signed, I had to buy the deputy Chief of the Bangladesh Civil Aviation Authority two bottles of whisky in this paragon of Moslem ideals country. I didn't meet many people that weren't 'bent' to a greater or lesser degree.

Few Westerners have any idea about the levels of poverty too. These women are the lucky ones (up until they're killed of course) because they have jobs of some description, many don't and there's no handouts.

We expect the cheapest clothes, and anybody in retail tries to achieve that. But the worst abuse is actually Bangladeshi on Bangladeshi, they're pitiless. They recently overtook Nigeria as the most corrupt country on the planet.

If it makes you feel better, then don't buy from Walmart, but plenty of others will. You can then feel self-satisfied that you made a stand. Chances are, your alternative came from a sweatshop elsewhere.

But if you collectively think you can change mankind, please feel free. When you actually LIVE within that culture, it makes you realise that you are absolutely powerless to change it, because THEY DON'T WANT YOU TO.

But if you blame Walmart, then be prepared for a very long list of businesses - that's before you start looking at chocolate, coffee, fruit and hundreds of other commodities.

Me? I'm just grateful I live where I do.

---

28 Nov 12 - 06:09 PM (#3443944)
Subject: RE: Triangle Fire ala DHAKA, Bangladesh
From: sciencegeek

Walmart is used as an example of the big box stores... and they spend a lot on their public image as a socially conscious organization...

I don't recall anyone "blaming" them for the problem.

Do we think that anyone in NYC gave a rats ass about sweatshop conditions before the nation's papers were filled with pictures of burned bodies and young girls smashed on the pavement after jumping from windows to escape the flames.

A prime reason for "outsourcing" is because the US put laws into effect to prevent dangerous work conditions - which puts a crimp into $ that some greedy SOBs think should go into their pockets. It's not a pretty picture... but we live in the world, and only when there is fairness for all do can we hope to improve our lot.

---

28 Nov 12 - 06:55 PM (#3443973)
Subject: RE: Triangle Fire ala DHAKA, Bangladesh
From: sciencegeek

starve vs. burn... where did that come from?... not from this:

.. but we live in the world, and only when there is fairness for all can we hope to improve our lot.

all people deserve respect and workers need to be able to earn a living wage under decent conditions. considering what an item of sweatshop produced goods sell for in the US... someone is getting rich... and it's not the workers in either country.... and that is the point!

the proper term is exploitation....

---

28 Nov 12 - 10:04 PM (#3444082)
Subject: RE: Triangle Fire ala DHAKA, Bangladesh
From: Ron Davies

As I said, Walmart is the champion of race-to-the-bottom.    It's a behemoth, as I suspect you know.   Saying you'll just be buying from another sweatshop is classic head-in--the-sand.   You can always find an excuse to do nothing. Since Walmart appears to be using a loophole to evade responsibility, and for some people they are the only alternative to buy from, they deserve the worst publicity that can be devised---in an effort to make them change their ways..


And they do in fact care about their image--as anybody who has read about them would know.

---

29 Nov 12 - 06:21 AM (#3444215)
Subject: RE: Triangle Fire ala DHAKA, Bangladesh
From: sciencegeek

There is book out based on the doctoral dissertation of S Ann Dunham -
"Surviving against the Odds: Village Industry in Indonesia" that I think shows a clear understanding of economic exploitation and a potential solution.

The legacy of western imperialism is that there was never any interest in spreading democracy or improving the standard of living for anyone..
merely to create wealth for the privileged few. we give lip service to the idea, but in practice we support anyone we think will stay bribed. that's how the west "lost" Cuba.... Castro played the players.

---

29 Nov 12 - 09:51 AM (#3444312)
Subject: RE: Triangle Fire ala DHAKA, Bangladesh
From: SINSULL

Take a walk on Seventh Ave in the forties and watch the women, mainly Asian, with small children heading off to work illegally in the garment center in NYC. It will take another tragedy to bring it to the front page - for a day or two.

Piece work still goes on in the jewelry industry as well.

I worked in a building on Eighth Ave and could see the illegals on the window sills whenever Immigration showed up.

Education and jobs will get the current workers out only to be replaced by the next wave of people willing to work long hours for minimal pay to provide a better life for their children. But we aren't willing to pay enough for clothing to make a living wage doable. Corporate greed is only part of the cause.

---

29 Nov 12 - 11:40 AM (#3444367)
Subject: RE: Triangle Fire ala DHAKA, Bangladesh
From: kendall

I went shopping for hose clamps yesterday. My local hardware store had some from China for $2.00 (for 2) and some made in the USA for $4.00 for 2. I gladly paid the extra for a quality product that works as it should.

We are looking at needing most of our warships in the Pacific to balance the blue water fleet that China is building with the money we send them for cheap low quality goods.

---

07 Dec 12 - 01:51 PM (#3448779)
Subject: RE: Triangle Fire ala DHAKA, Bangladesh
From: Desert Dancer

The NY Times has an in-depth article about the fire and the situation.

Horrific Fire Revealed a Gap in Safety for Global Brands

excerpted:

In Bangladesh, public outrage about the fire has boiled over. An estimated 100,000 people attended the burial ceremony of 53 workers whose bodies could not be identified. Industry leaders have promised financial support for survivors and the families of the dead. The Bangladeshi government has started inspecting the country's 4,500 garment factories; it has already found fire code violations in almost a third of the hundreds it has examined.

"Now we have to do much more," said Mohammad Shafiul Islam Mohiuddin, president of the Bangladesh Garment Manufacturers and Exporters Association, conceding past failures. "We have learned. We start from here."

In the United States, Labor Secretary Hilda L. Solis compared the Tazreen blaze to the 1911 Triangle shirtwaist factory fire in New York, which led to sweeping reforms of American sweatshops. In Bangladesh, factory fires have been a persistent problem, with the International Labor Rights Forum saying more than 600 garment workers have died in such fires since 2005.

And even before the Tazreen blaze, outside pressure was building on Bangladesh's garment sector to increase wages and ease restrictions on union organizing. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton, along with European diplomats, has urged the government to investigate the unsolved murder of a labor organizer, Aminul Islam.

In reconstructing the deadly blaze, The New York Times interviewed more than two dozen survivors; relatives of the victims; Bangladeshi fire officials; garment factory owners and managers; auditors; and others. In the end, analysts said, the conflagration was a tragic byproduct of an industry in which global brands and retailers, encouraged by hundreds of millions of consumers around the world, are still primarily motivated by the bottom line.

"We as consumers like to be able to buy ever-greater quantities of ever-cheaper goods, every year," said Richard M. Locke, deputy dean of the M.I.T. Sloan School of Management. "Somebody is bearing the cost of it, and we don't want to know about it. The people bearing the cost were in this fire."

I buy second-hand when I can, but ultimately global commerce is not going away. It really does come down to improving conditions around the world. Costs will have to go up. Our consumption will moderate (one hopes!), but consumption by those who are being paid better will increase...

~ Becky in Tucson

---