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31 Oct 99 - 01:20 PM (#130078) Subject: Threescore and ten From: Chris Nixon Threescore and ten - a song about a severe storm on the east coast of England which wrecked a large number of inshore fishing boats. I have the lyrics and music - in fact I perform the song with almost tedious regularity - but, sinner that I am, I don't know who wrote it. It may just be "traditional", but as the event was in the early part of this century, I expect an author lurks out there somewhere. Any ideas? |
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31 Oct 99 - 01:44 PM (#130082) Subject: RE: Threescore and ten From: Barbara Here's a link to the song and tune in the database, but it doesn't give an author, only who recorded it. THREE SCORE AND TEN Blessings, Barbara |
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31 Oct 99 - 02:53 PM (#130100) Subject: RE: Threescore and ten From: wildlone The only thing that I can find in any of my books is, Traditional. There is a poem displayed in the Bradley Arms,Bradley Crossroads, Grimsby. That has 9 verses. Taken from,"Songs Worth Singing" compiled by R.G.Brooker. I have not seen it myself, but maybe a Catter has. |
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31 Oct 99 - 04:16 PM (#130124) Subject: RE: Threescore and ten From: Barbara Oh. Duh. Blue clicky thing to Three Score and Ten. |
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31 Oct 99 - 04:24 PM (#130128) Subject: RE: Threescore and ten From: wildlone Never mind Barbara you should see my efforts at the blue bugger Damien Barber has recorded a good version on his tape Blass Me. it is well worth buying if you see it |
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31 Oct 99 - 04:42 PM (#130132) Subject: RE: Threescore and ten From: Captain Swing I was born in Grimsby and learned 'Three Score and Ten' when I joined a folk band there in 1971. The leader of the band, Keith, used to sing it and assured us that it was about an actual event in the late 19th century ( he knew the exact date) when, as a result of severe gales along the East coast, many ships were lost, a large number from Grimsby. Keith had a family connection as one of his ancestors ( possibly his great grandfather) was lost in the storms. However, he was also fairly certain that it was not traditional but was written as a music hall song, possibly in London. Coincidentally, I used to visit the pub at Bradley Crossroads quite regularly. The "Songs Worth Singing" poster must have been put up after my time but I suspect that R G Brooker is Bob Brooker who used to be involved in Louth Folk Club at the time. Louth Folk Club was started in about 1970 by non other than Keith, the leader of our band. What a small world this is! |
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31 Oct 99 - 04:52 PM (#130135) Subject: RE: Threescore and ten From: wildlone "Captain Swing"not of All over Dorset the flames are rising high, The ricks are burning,who's the cause, Captian Swing not I. Bob has his own business now ARGEEBEE MUSIC. |
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31 Oct 99 - 04:56 PM (#130138) Subject: RE: Threescore and ten From: Captain Swing Well blow me. I've just done a web search on "three score and ten" and come up with this - http://hum2mac1.murdoch.edu.au/watersons/70.html Written in London, my ar..! |
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31 Oct 99 - 04:59 PM (#130139) Subject: RE: Threescore and ten From: Captain Swing Yes, I am that masked man. Is Bob still in Louth? |
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31 Oct 99 - 05:17 PM (#130143) Subject: RE: Threescore and ten From: wildlone Bob is in Kenilworth last I heard. I live in Dorset, We still remember |
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31 Oct 99 - 05:30 PM (#130146) Subject: RE: Threescore and ten From: Chris Nixon Many thanks to all. The storm did indeed devastate most of the east coast - down here in Deal, Wimpy Fishlock (and yes, that is his real name - well, surname anyway), an old boatman, reckons his grandfather was lost in it. Thanks again, Chris. |
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31 Oct 99 - 08:53 PM (#130197) Subject: RE: Threescore and ten From: Margo Lou Killen's CD liner notes from "A Seaman's Garland" says "Three Score and Ten was first published as a poem in a Grimsby newspaper after the great storm in the 1880's. It was found 70 years later being sung by fishermen in Robin Hood's Bay (collectors: Mary and Douglas Huddleston.)" Margarita |
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31 Oct 99 - 10:35 PM (#130234) Subject: RE: Threescore and ten From: Barry Finn I remember this being in a thread quite awhile ago but can't seem to find it. Anyway, from Roy Palmer's the "Oxford Book Of Sea Songs":
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03 Nov 99 - 02:31 PM (#131348) Subject: RE: Threescore and ten From: Wolfgang Here's the old thread. Wolfgang |
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03 Nov 99 - 05:53 PM (#131444) Subject: RE: Threescore and ten From: Reiver 2 Wolfgang, wasn't there another thread going on Three Score and Ten just within the past month? I think we both posted to it. Or did the thread have a different name? I seem to remember a fascinating thread called something like "Favorite Historical Stories and Songs" where it came up -- but I can't find that thread. There was a spinoff from it called "Historical Ballads" where the song came up also. |
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03 Nov 99 - 06:05 PM (#131452) Subject: RE: Threescore and ten From: MMario It was mentioned a lot under "Most haunting tunes" |
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04 Nov 99 - 06:56 AM (#131606) Subject: RE: Threescore and ten From: Wolfgang I had forgotten, Reiver 2, but with your hint: There's a minor mention in a thread titled Fav. Historical Story-songs and several interesting mentions in a thread titled 'Historical' Ballads. Wolfgang |
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04 Nov 99 - 07:54 AM (#131616) Subject: RE: Threescore and ten From: Garry Gillard I have added Wolfgang's quotation from Palmer to the words of the song that I had already put (as noted by Captain Swing) at http://hum2mac1.murdoch.edu.au/watersons/70.html Thanks again Wolfgang! Garry Gillard |
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31 Jan 03 - 06:24 AM (#878970) Subject: Origins: Three score and ten From: Sir Roger de Beverley I have been singing the song this week to fit in with commemorating the great East Coast flood of 1953(50 yrs this weekend)in which several hundred people lost their lives in Lincolshire and Norfolk. Yes, I know that it isn't about the same event but the chorus "three score score and ten boys and men were lost from Grimsby town" kind of fits. My query is that, although I have heard recorded versions by John Connolly, The Watersons and The Clancys and have seen several printed versions (including the one in the DT), where does the song come from? Do we know who wrote it and what was the event that prompted it? Roger |
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31 Jan 03 - 06:33 AM (#878974) Subject: RE: Origins: Three score and ten From: DMcG There is an entry about this in the database at www.folkinfo.org which gives a newpaper entry from the time, as well as the usual stuff. |
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31 Jan 03 - 06:33 AM (#878975) Subject: RE: Origins: Three score and ten From: GUEST From Roy Palmer's The Oxford Book Of Sea Songs: 'In Memoriam of the poor Fishermen who lost their lives in the Dreadful Gale from Grimsby and Hull, Feb. 8 & 9, 1889' is the title of a broadside produced by a Grimsby [other source: Whitby] fisherman, William Delf [other source: Delph], to raise funds for the bereaved families. It lists eight lost vessels, the last two from Hull: Eton, John Wintringham, Sea Searcher, Sir Fred. Roberts, British Workman, Kitten, Harold, Adventure, and Olive Branch. In addition the names of some of the lost sailors are given, and there is a poem in eight stanzas. This passed into oral tradition, and in so doing lost six verses and acquired a new one (the last, in which an error of date occurs), together with a chorus and a tune. The oral version was noted from a master mariner, Mr. J. Pearson of Filey, in 1957, and has subsequently, with some further small variations, become well known in folk-song clubs.' |
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31 Jan 03 - 06:34 AM (#878976) Subject: RE: Origins: Three score and ten From: GUEST,Ed Click here for the folkinfo entry. |
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31 Jan 03 - 06:36 AM (#878977) Subject: RE: Origins: Three score and ten From: Noreen I believe the original poem (or probably a copy!) is on the wall of a Grimsby pub I've visited, but blowed if I can remember which one. Will post more if memory recovers. |
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31 Jan 03 - 06:39 AM (#878978) Subject: RE: Origins: Three score and ten From: Sir Roger de Beverley Thanks everyone - Mudcat comes up trumps again! Roger |
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31 Jan 03 - 04:48 PM (#879421) Subject: RE: Origins: Three score and ten From: GUEST,Bill well done Guest it was William Delph, but the last verse which refers to an October night was written at a later date. Bill(the sound) |
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31 Jan 03 - 07:20 PM (#879597) Subject: RE: Origins: Three score and ten From: Gareth Interestingly, I've heard, tho the words escape me, a Kentish Version sung in the " Duke of Cumberland " Folk Club in Whitstable some 25 years ago. I suspect this was a modification under the ' Folk ' process. Gareth |
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31 Jan 03 - 10:43 PM (#879739) Subject: RE: Origins: Three score and ten From: Barry Finn There's an old thread that give a huge amout of interesting info on this. Barry |
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01 Feb 03 - 02:29 PM (#880154) Subject: RE: Origins: Three score and ten From: Santa I have a copy of the broadsheet, handed out one Fylde festival by Roy Palmer, which credits W. Delf, Fisherman, Grimsby. As stated above, really. |
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03 Feb 03 - 09:15 AM (#881269) Subject: RE: Origins: Three score and ten From: Snuffy Dead Horse sang a Kentish version, Gareth, at the Stoney Stratford Mudcat gathering last year. WassaiL! V |
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03 Feb 03 - 07:39 PM (#881887) Subject: RE: Origins: Three score and ten From: Gareth Damm ! Snuffy, I missed that - possibly acute alchol poisening !! Gareth |
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22 Mar 05 - 06:17 AM (#1440360) Subject: RE: Threescore and ten From: GUEST,Alan Bolt singer/entertainer My very good friend Bob Brooker,now lives in Leamington Spa,01926 831518, still playing,now into trad Irish music and supplying musical goods at very keen prices. He no doubt would love to hear from any one he knew in the past when he lived,played & worked in Lincs. Daft thing is,I met him when he moved to The Midland,now I have moved to Lincs! He now helps me with sound engineering occasionally and his brother is Tom who has a folk/blues band still operating! My contact number is 01526 344417.Bobs e-mail address is bob.argeebee@btinternet.com hope this is of interest! |
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22 Mar 05 - 07:35 AM (#1440411) Subject: RE: Threescore and ten From: GUEST,Nfkfiddler I remember Barney singing this with the Dubliners both at Norwich and Lowestoft. I can't remember the name but they credited it to a writer in Lowestoft. I've always known it as a 'local tune'. |
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04 Aug 06 - 08:06 PM (#1801874) Subject: Origins: Three Score and Ten From: Big Jim from Jackson I've listened often to Johnny McEvoy sing a song titled "Three Score And Ten" and I wonder when the events of the song occured. Evidently a big storm swept through the English Channel and many lives were lost. I wonder when this occured and are there other songs that refer to this event. Does the storm have a name? Threads combined. -Joe Offer- |
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04 Aug 06 - 08:13 PM (#1801879) Subject: RE: Origins: Three Score and Ten From: GUEST,Jon According to our notes, It occured February 8th, 9th 1889. More details at http://www.folkinfo.org/forum/topic.php?topicid=203 |
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04 Aug 06 - 10:04 PM (#1801927) Subject: RE: Origins: Threescore and Ten From: GUEST,Joe_F Don Duncan, in the FSSGB Auxiliary Songbook, quotes "John Conolly, of Grimsby", as saying: In the 1880s, a series of great gales wrecked hundreds of fishing boats along the East coast of Britain, and many men were lost. William Delf was a grimsby fisherman who tried to help the widows and orphans by writing poems about these disasters and selling copies of them, the proceeds going to the dependents of the men lost at sea. The "Threescore and Ten" poem was one of his better efforts, but nobody seems to know how it acquired a chorus. --- Joe Fineman joe_f@verizon.net ||: You're talking in my sleep. :|| |
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04 Aug 06 - 10:19 PM (#1801932) Subject: RE: Origins: Threescore and Ten From: Scotus That fine Fife songwriter John Watt produced a stunning song called 'The Eyemouth Disaster' (recorded by him and other notables including Cilla Fisher), which I believe deals with the same storm and similar events (Eyemouth is a fishing town just north of Berwick on the east coast). My understanding is that the storm came right down the east coast from the Shetlands to the south coast of England and that there were many similar disasters over the space of a couple of days. I'll bet there are a few other songs around! Jack |
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05 Aug 06 - 02:08 AM (#1801976) Subject: RE: Origins: Threescore and Ten From: Barry Finn Hi Joe Don does have that right. I don't remember where I've read that & I know it wasn't the FSSGB Auxiliary Songbook but it's almost exactly the way I remember reading it & I don't think that I mentioned it to Don either but do say hi to him for me will ya? Barry |
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05 Aug 06 - 03:04 AM (#1801983) Subject: RE: Origins: Threescore and Ten From: stallion As I heared it, it was a poem about one disaster, ammended to suit another disaster, i suspect even changed and pulled about by everyone. We have recently recorded it and have been castigated in a review for attributing it to "Trad." although it came back from MCPRS as "In the Public Domain" which, to my constant ear bashing, does not mean traditional. Although we sang it at the South Street Shanty sing in NYC and were asked why the chorus had the line "from Yarmouth DOWN through Scarborough many hundreds more......" The only reasonable explanation I have for this is from the victorian age of steam when all the lines going to London were the up lines. However this is only a theory of mine and not dyed in the wool fact......discus! |
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05 Aug 06 - 03:34 AM (#1801986) Subject: RE: Origins: Threescore and Ten From: s&r From Yarmouth Town to Scarborough Stu |
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05 Aug 06 - 07:53 AM (#1802039) Subject: RE: Origins: Threescore and Ten From: GUEST,doc.tom It was published in The Oxford Book of Local Verses 1987 p.137. 'A Ballad in Memory of the Fishermen from Hull and Grimsby who lost their lives in the Gale of 8 and 9 February 1889'; by W. Delf, a Grimsby fisherman. It was produced as a broadside by the author - presumably as a fundfaiser. I'd always thought that Mike Waterson had set the tune! |
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05 Aug 06 - 08:00 AM (#1802041) Subject: RE: Origins: Threescore and Ten From: Leadfingers I've just checked the sleeve notes on 'New Voices' and that gives Lyrics by William Delph a Whitby Fisherman ! Which spelling is correct for the gentlemans name ? |
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05 Aug 06 - 09:08 AM (#1802066) Subject: RE: Origins: Threescore and Ten From: Les from Hull As day after day passes and no tidings arrive of the missing Grimsby smacks, it is beginning to be realised that the gale of the 9th ult. will prove one of the most disastrous to the Grimsby fishing trade on record. Altogether nearly a dozen fishing vessels, carrying between 60 and 70 hands, are missing. Most of these vessels were only provisioned for eight or nine days, and many of them have been out over a month. Of the safety of seven of them all hope has now been abandoned. The vessels are: Sea Searcher, trawl smack, owner Mr Joseph Ward; five hands. John Wintringham, cod smack, master and owner Mr John Guitesen; eleven hands. Eton, iron steam trawl smack, owner Mr H. Smethurst, Jun.; eight hands. British Workman, cod smack, owner Mr Thomas Campbell; seven hands. Sir Frederick Roberts, trawl smack, master and owner Mr W. Walker; five hands. Kitten, trawl smack, owner James Meadows; five hands. Harold, trawl smack, master and owner Mr Blakeney; five hands. Portions of wreckage from the Kitten have been picked up at sea and brought into port, and the British Workman was seen to be reduced to a mere wreck by a heavy sea on the morning of the gale. Many of the men who have been lost leave wives and families, and an immense amount of distress will be caused amongst the fishing population. The total number of vessels lost will, it is feared, be near 15, and of lives between 70 and 80. Hull Times, 2 March 1889. |
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05 Aug 06 - 09:38 AM (#1802073) Subject: RE: Origins: Threescore and Ten From: GUEST,doc.tom Spelling of Delf?? My money is on DELF rather than DELPH. Ray Delf -great (great?) grandson of the W. Delf in question is part of the Padstow branch of the Delf family - and a very fine accordionist he is too! |
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06 Aug 06 - 08:07 PM (#1803053) Subject: RE: Origins: Threescore and Ten From: Big Jim from Jackson Thanks, Joe, and others. I guess I am going to have to take a refresher course in "Look before You Leap". |
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06 Aug 06 - 08:26 PM (#1803066) Subject: RE: Origins: Threescore and Ten From: Joybell I asked an old seaman, from roughly the area of the disaster, about the "from Yarmouth DOWN to Scarborough" line. He told me that "up and down" as the map shows towns is irrelevant to the old-timers. Indeed people here in the bush of Australia still use "up or down" seemingly at random. As in "I'm going down to Melbourne" or I'm going up to Melbourne" (Melbourne is pretty much directly East of here - neither up nor down.) Cheers, Joy |
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06 Aug 06 - 09:39 PM (#1803108) Subject: RE: Origins: Threescore and Ten From: Joybell Also True-Love points out -- In the USA, the term "down east" refers to New England, particularly Maine. I believe that this is because this area is downWIND on the coast. Certainly the Gulf Stream runs northeast along that coast, until it hits the Labrador Current north of Maine. Is Scarborough downwind of Yarmouth? |
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07 Aug 06 - 08:43 AM (#1803381) Subject: RE: Origins: Threescore and Ten From: Big Jim from Jackson Hi, Joybell! I found similar information on another thread that, indeed, sailors refer to "up" and "down" with respect to the way the wind blows---sort of like upstream and downstream with respect to water flow in a river. And one comment indicated theat the prevailing wind in that region would allow for that wording to be accurate. Another comment pointed out that the word may have been misunderstood, and that the word "'round" (around) would make sense. Give my reguards to Hildebrand (aka True-Love) |
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07 Aug 06 - 09:10 AM (#1803399) Subject: RE: Origins: Threescore and Ten From: s&r Yarmouth was known as Yarmouth Town to separate it from the Borough of Great Yarmouth. Hence Yarmouth Town to Scarborough. FWIW the uk has prevailing winds fom the SW Stu |
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07 Aug 06 - 11:37 AM (#1803515) Subject: RE: Origins: Threescore and Ten From: Big Jim from Jackson Thanks, Stu. That makes even more sense. |
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07 Aug 06 - 12:20 PM (#1803549) Subject: RE: Origins: Threescore and Ten From: IanC s&r That would be fine if the original words said Yarmouth Town and if a Borough wasn't the Old English for town. Unfortunately, neither of these is true. :-( Ian |
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27 Feb 16 - 05:21 AM (#3775293) Subject: RE: Origins: Threescore and Ten From: Tattie Bogle I definitely heard it as "down" not "town" and puzzled over it initially, as Scarborough is north of Yarmouth, but apart from any consideration of prevailing winds, it was explained to me that going back to your home port, in this case, was "going down home". The UK's prevailing wind directions vary a lot by the way: can turn right round in a deep depression, as happens in big storms! Although William Delph (Delf) was from Grimsby, Scarborough would have been roughly in the same direction if you were heading from Yarmouth. This interpretation may of course be pure speculation. ;-) And I looked up the thread in anticipation of my own "three score and ten" coming up shortly! :-) |
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27 Feb 16 - 02:44 PM (#3775375) Subject: RE: Origins: Threescore and Ten From: Steve Gardham I believe it was Brian Dawson who asserted that Delf's offspring, having moved to Lowestoft, altered the song to something like its current form, BUT Ruairidh Greig from Grimsby has done a lot of research on Delf and in fact he died childless. The relatives referred to above might of course be from nephews. The collectors, by the way, were Nigel and Mary Hudleston, now deceased, but their collection was published and is deposited in Special Collections at Sheffield University. |
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29 Feb 16 - 10:36 AM (#3775742) Subject: RE: Origins: Threescore and Ten From: Tattie Bogle Thanks Steve. |
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29 Feb 16 - 03:01 PM (#3775790) Subject: RE: Origins: Threescore and Ten From: mg We just heard the most beautiful version of this yet I might think at Fisher poets this weekend...Paul of originally England sang it, in almost a wistful way I think...it is such a great song that it is usually sung with great vigor at least here... |
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29 Feb 16 - 03:52 PM (#3775810) Subject: RE: Origins: Threescore and Ten From: Steve Gardham In Hull where many of the seamen involved were from and where there is a monument to the lost fishermen, we usually sing it quite vigorously but with lots of feeling and reverence. It has the impact of something like 'Eternal Father' but without the histrionics. We often finish our maritime concerts with it, accompanied on anglo with all of the concert performers joining us. There is a photo of the monument in a sadly neglected graveyard, on our website www.yorkshirefolksong.net |