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BS: Muslim men and white girls - again

17 Jan 13 - 05:25 PM (#3467740)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Brian May

I remember a few months ago, being practically branded as a racist because I pointed out that the vast majority of 'grooming' of young white girls was being carried out by Muslim men.

I would ask those bleeding heart liberals who support all things minority, how many more cases need to be taken to court before you start to get the idea that, however unpalatable, it's true.

The reason that this has gone on so long is that people like you refuse to see what's in front of your face. You judge by the standards YOU imbue on the perpetrators, not those they actually display.

They treat these poor young girls with utter contempt. They belong to a regime that avows the destruction of our society and then are happy to be supported by our state whilst they take the best and treat everyone as trash.

Don't worry though, it's just another rant from a racist bigot . . . . . . isn't it?

Do you KNOW what your daughters are doing, who they're with? Hmmm.

17 Jan 13 - 05:33 PM (#3467742)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Bobert

Let's get real here, Brian... What we have all over the world is exploitation of women... It's not confined to just one race, one nationality, one religion or one geographic area... We have a major problem here in the United Sates with sex trafficing...

An American model was led into what she thought was a job interview where two men (not Muslim) raped her, taped it and threatened to put the video all over the internet if she didn't become a prostitute for them... She reluctantly went along with it but came forward and is now a spokesperson for an organization that deals with similar situations...

I mean, men are some pretty messed up people... I don't think it's at all fair to pick out one group over another...

B~

17 Jan 13 - 05:43 PM (#3467745)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Little Hawk

"grooming"?

Well, I can guess what you must be referring to, and I think it's disgusting and absolutely awful no matter who is doing it...or to whom. I empathize with your concern over the matter. Perhaps you should write to your political representatives or your local newspapers about it, rather than trying to prove to a few people here on this forum that you are not a racist.

I say this because it's a hopeless task to attempt the latter. Nothing of the sort can ever be proven here. Nothing you can do or say will change the sitation. You'll just get in a lot of acrimonious arguments with a few highly reactive individuals who've already decided they don't like you for some reason. Those arguments will go on and on forever, eating up your time in a really unpleasant fashion, and they will result in lingering feuds that crop up again periodically on numerous other threads. It'll fuck up your day and raise your levels of stress. In short, you might as well pound sand or try to empty the Pacific Ocean with a small bucket.

Meanwhile, the "grooming" of those poor girls will go on just as it did before.

I call that a lose-lose situation.

17 Jan 13 - 06:18 PM (#3467766)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: artbrooks

"White" is a color, often used to refer to humans of primarily European extraction. No human is actually white, unless afflicted with extreme albinism. As an experiment, place your hand on a piece of printer paper (or put the paper where there is no suntan) and see if they are the same color.

"Muslim" is a religion, and adherents to that religion may be of any "pure" or mixed racial background. The largest single ethnic group among Muslims is South Asian, into which I'd put Tamils, Bengalis, Indonesians, Pakistanis and Filipinos, among others. Arab Muslims are generally racially indistinguishable from many South (Spanish and Italian) and Southeast (Balkan, Turkish and Greek) Europeans...and many Israelis.

So, guess what? Those "Muslims" were probably as "white" as you are.

17 Jan 13 - 06:36 PM (#3467775)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: olddude

Chinese and Mexican girls are two groups that are terribly exploited by sex traffic trade.

17 Jan 13 - 06:40 PM (#3467779)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link

anecdotal evidence on a personal level would seem to support brians point as well as the stories in the news,but unless it is shown statistically to be confirmed it may be best to be cautious.it is a shame that the police are so often unable to deal effectively with adults preying on kids whatever ethnic bacground the perpetrators are.
i also think it a shame that the pop culture-eg music videos-lead young girls to think they are there for the use of males.

17 Jan 13 - 06:59 PM (#3467805)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Little Hawk

Come to think of it, I was reminded by Dan about this, I think that Asian girls are most likely exploited more by the international sex trade than any other demographic. Eastern European girls would likely be in 2nd place when it comes to that. After that? Probably Latina women. This is more because of longstanding economic and cultural conditions in Asia and Eastern Europe and Latin America than it is because of race...or religious influences. Any culture that treats women as less than equal to men will contribute to the problem.

17 Jan 13 - 07:30 PM (#3467832)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: akenaton

I think that is the point the OP is making Hawk.
The situation in some parts of the UK, where young white girls are abused and trafficed by mainly Pakistani Muslims seems to be based on how these men view white British girls.....simply as sexual comodities, or "easy meat".
The problem was exacerbated by the unwillingness of police,social services, or the judiciary to protect these children.... on the grounds that they may have fallen foul of anti discrimination legislation.

There is no evil which cannot hide behind an agenda.

17 Jan 13 - 07:46 PM (#3467842)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Steve Shaw

Muslim men, huh? Anyone check whether they were regular mosque attenders? No, really. I'd love to know... It's just that Jimmy Savile, a devout Catholic, never seems to be described as that "Catholic sex predator"...

17 Jan 13 - 11:22 PM (#3467908)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: John P

Unless you can prove that ALL Muslim men behave this way, this thread is bigotry.

17 Jan 13 - 11:53 PM (#3467917)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Little Hawk

Yes, I get what you mean, Akenaton. It's a cultural problem. If people grow up around adults who have a bad attitude toward women...or blacks...or whites...or Asians...or religious people...or atheists...or anything at all really, then they tend to become prejudiced without even realizing it, and that's where the trouble starts. They act out the same negative stuff they saw around them when they were young.

Do any of us grow up completely free of prejudice? I don't think so. But if we are willing to challenge common social conditioning, question the values that were planted in us when we were young, and find a far better way, then we stand a very good chance of becoming a lot less prejudiced as time goes by.

That's what I have tried to do for my whole life. My parents had a number of subtle prejudices, and some not so subtle. So did my society. I've spent a lifetime shedding as many of those as I could detect...but the only way you can detect them is by selfexamination and selfcorrection.

I find that most people are tremendously eager to focus on how evil certain other people are. They engage in witch hunts with furious gusto...they seek out enemies to condemn, but they spend little time working on their own nasty baggage, their own meanness, their own prejudices, their own little verbal and behavioral cruelties inflicted upon others...like so much of the meanness on this forum. Thereby they miss their one real job in life...which is not to fix or judge or condemn other people. It's to make themselves into better people.

That's a lot more work than judging others. But it's the only thing that will get you anywhere useful in the end. The rest just adds to the world's towering burden of pain.

18 Jan 13 - 03:25 AM (#3467942)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

In previous discussions the point was often made that it only occurred in the North of England.
The current trial is of people from Oxford and involves London people.

18 Jan 13 - 04:52 AM (#3467954)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Eliza

Excellent points made here. The problem stems from an execrable attitude towards women, and it's worldwide. I watched a shocking programme two nights ago about Pakistani men in their homeland throwing acid over women who had 'displeased' them, resulting in dreadful disfigurement and pain. Even their birth families would not intervene or give them refuge as it was an 'honour' thing and they'd be shamed. The only answer, and it's a tall order, is to promote and support moves towards equality and respect between the sexes. It isn't only a Muslim thing, or a race thing. Consider the abuse by priests of vulnerable children in Ireland and elsewhere, the maiming of women and children in Rwanda, the 'leaving to die' of female infants in China, and it's always females suffering at the hands of men. I'm old now, but I still feel enormous indignation and anger at the injustices suffered by millions of my sisters around the world. It isn't quite enough LH, although I do admire your views, to concentrate on one's own shortcomings. Governments must act. The Pakistani parliament introduced the death penalty for acid attacks, but is that bit of paper going to radically change their culture? Remains to be seen.

18 Jan 13 - 05:06 AM (#3467956)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,CS

Well put Eliza.

18 Jan 13 - 05:18 AM (#3467960)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Eliza

There are glimmers of hope however. In Ivory Coast, it used to be customary to genitally mutilate girls of nine or ten, and to forcibly marry them off to old men at the age of about thirteen. My husband tells me that nowadays, women refuse to allow their daughters to be treated like this (HURRAH!) and that women in their twenties (such as his own numerous sisters) have mobile phones, use internet cafes and are therefore au fait with modern ways (HURRAH AGAIN!) They also create small micro-businesses independant of men. (HURRAH A THIRD TIME!) My sister has sent a sizeable money transfer to one of his sisters to start a beauty business of her own. She, like me, is a strong supporter of Women's Rights. In little steps like this attitudes can be 'adjusted'.

18 Jan 13 - 05:23 AM (#3467961)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,CS

"it's always females suffering at the hands of men."

I would agree that abuses against women are extremely common, but it's worth remembering that the Catholic Priest abuse scandal was mostly visited upon boys from poor families.

As for unhelpful cultural attitudes, I'm aways wary of the phrases 'traditional' and 'patriarchal', where these two descriptors co-exist, the devaluing, and what can often be routinely culturally tolerated abuses against women, won't be far behind. It's also worth noting in respect of race, that the west has only been out of the dark ages where women's rights and equality are concerned, for a very short amount of time and things could so easily be different here still, had we not become both a wealthy and highly literate nation archaic patriarchal traditions would no doubt still be the order of the day.

18 Jan 13 - 05:24 AM (#3467962)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Owen Woodson

Guest. There's no practically about it. In Britain at any rate, the vast majority of paedophiles are white, and the vast majority of them interfere with children of their own families. What's more, the vast majority of Muslims are highly respectable, sexually normal, individuals who place a lrge emphasis on bringing their children up properly.

Paedophilia is a ghastly crime, but everybody in this world should be judged by their own actions, not by those of a few sick sad scumbags.

18 Jan 13 - 05:25 AM (#3467963)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,CS

sorry for clumsy sentence, hit post too soon.

18 Jan 13 - 05:51 AM (#3467972)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Eliza

Agree to some extent Owen, but a large number of Muslims here in UK still uphold the view that women are in some way inferior to men and should be monitored and controlled. Forced marriages with unmet cousins are very common still. Many men (and not necessarily just Muslims) seem to feel that one's woman should be available at all times for sexual pleasure and should be solely responsible for home chores and childcare. This view may give rise and nurture the idea that any female of any age is just there for the taking and using. It's a philosophy of the basic worthlessness of the female of whatever age or stage of life. I do feel that paedophiles also hold this tenet, that sexual pleasures can justifiably be had by whatever means from powerless victims. It's quite true that here in UK a mere 150 years ago women had hardly any rights or power. But now that we have, we must campaign for our sisters too.

18 Jan 13 - 06:06 AM (#3467975)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,CS

"It's quite true that here in UK a mere 150 years ago women had hardly any rights or power. But now that we have, we must campaign for our sisters too."

Absolutely! I'm not arguing for moral relativism in any way - it's right that damaging attitudes about, and abuses against women be critiqued and condemned, wherever they occur.

18 Jan 13 - 08:02 AM (#3468017)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: akenaton

Additionally, I think some responsibility for this mess must be taken by the British people who have allowed "the family" to be undermined and have produced a generation of young people who are rootless and simply cannot cope with life.

Many of the children who are being sexually abuse and prostituted are from broken homes....an easy target for predatory gangs who view them as worthless trash. We have been presented with and accepted a lifestyle which gives us a large measure of personal "freedom", but in many cases little or no sense of responsibility towards our children or society.

Personal "freedom" without resonsibility is simply selfishness of the most degrading kind.

18 Jan 13 - 08:11 AM (#3468025)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

Until The Men of the World rise up, en masse, TOGETHER, to stamp the violence against ALL Women out, forever, things will only get better in very tiny small steps..and those steps are being created by women, more often than not.

I agree with ALL Eliza says...

And this starts not just with Religion, but with men walking into Toy Shops, picking up Bratz Dolls, for instance, and saying "This doll is NOT acceptable, for it is teaching my daughter that she needs to pout and thrust out her chest, dress like a whore and talk incessantly about boys and sex!"

It needs men to go into newsagents and say: "Take DOWN those magazines filled with naked women, for that is teaching our children that this kind of behaviour is acceptable!"

It needs them to go to the guys behind 'GQ' magazine and other such 'Boys Stuff' and tell them the same thing..

Then, they need to march on the Music Industry, the Video Industry, the Computer Games Industry and, of course, the TV and Film industry and tell them to STOP portraying women purely as Sex Objects and little else!

It needs men to understand that women have Bums, Boobs AND Brains and that long after the Bums and Boobs have sagged and dropped, her BRAIN is still as BEAUTIFUL as ever!

It needs men to DEMAND that women on TV are ALLLOWED to LOOK OLD and STILL be taken seriously! To demand an end to Old Men presenting programmes, whilst the women are told to Botox Themselves to Death or lose their jobs!

And of course, it needs men to DEMAND an end to the Unholy Holy Books and Teachers of those Unholy Words, which give permission for some men to treat women like shit, regard them as lower than their camel and view them purely to be 'owned' by them...

Women will NEVER stop this on their own.

The Solution to this HAS to come from The Men themselves....

And please note, that I know there are very many wonderful men out there who are just as angry and pissed off with the behaviour of some of those of their own sex, as women are, but they hold The Key To Change.

The only other way for this to change is for Women to rise to positions of power, and then set about bringing in Draconian Punishment for any man who behaves in this way...but that will take many years, and in many countries it will take a Revolution for women to be able to rise to those positions anyway, such is the Male Dominated Society in some places....

This abuse of women and little girls is not just physical, it is also mental and it is being done by White Men too, Brian....Grow up and look around you, see what images your daughter, grandaughter, friends daughters are absorbing and then ask yourself WHO are the people behind it....

18 Jan 13 - 08:21 AM (#3468035)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Nigel Parsons

Lizzie:
Women will NEVER stop this on their own.

The Solution to this HAS to come from The Men themselves..

You seem to be arguing that women are inferior as they cannot do this, they need men to do it for them.

I hope I've misunderstood you!

18 Jan 13 - 08:33 AM (#3468039)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Dave the Gnome

Surprisingly enough I agree with most of what Liz says. But there is one sticking point -

The Solution to this HAS to come from The Men themselves....

The solution CANNOT come from 'men' alone it can only come from those in power, regardless of sex, colour or creed. What most people fail to realise is that we are ALL downtrodden by those who run the world - And that is not always politicians BTW, they are often just the mouthpieces.

I absolutely hate the way sex is used to sell product but while the powers are making enough money to stay there, that is how it will be. BTW - It is not just women that are seen as sex objects - Never seen the coke ads? Or the Levis ads? But I will admit that women are used far more. Mind you - how much of that is woman driven? I am always reminded of the Spice Girls in these discussions. Very little talent but mega-hype. Girl Power? Crap. Porn power maybe - but did anyone make themn do it?

Anyway - I know you are going to say that us ordinary people need to rise up and show the powers that we do not like it. But unfortunately there are enough people willing to fit into their demographic patterns and they will continue to pander to whatever sells their product. Sorry, but that is just a fact of life. At least it is at the moment. In time it will change. But it will be a slow process and no amount of screaming, shouting, wailing or hand-wringing will make it happen sooner. It is good old evolution that will do it in the end.

Cheers

DtG

18 Jan 13 - 09:01 AM (#3468046)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Richard Bridge

Sex is good and to be encouraged. Coercion is bad and should not be. Regrettably it is the wellspring of capitalism as well as many societies. I am not aware of any coercive matriarchies at the moment.

18 Jan 13 - 09:03 AM (#3468048)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Eliza

Akenaton, a very good point. I read about the girl of 13 who fell/jumped to her death after young men had abused her and videoed the sex acts they performed on her. According to several different sources, it's common in schools for teenage girls to be pressured into sending porno-style pics and videos via their phones to lads who then show them around like sick trophies. Parents seem to allow their children (and they are, in spite of physical maturity, still children)to do what they like when they like and with no supervision or guidance. I wonder if the parents themselves had the same kind of lack of care during their own youth. Probably. Young predatory and sexually-aroused men will target easy prey such as the badly-parented badly-supervised and neglected young girls who may be drinking and/or taking drugs. And bullying by other girls adds pressure to conform. The Spice Girls IMV are victims of the same hype and current attitude. Celebrity worship has a lot to answer for. Let's hope as Dave says that things will change.

18 Jan 13 - 09:03 AM (#3468049)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Musket

Before anybody lets Ms Cornish sidetrack this any further..

This is about a particular problem where people of one culture see people of other cultures as being inferior. Look at the testimony of the family member women of some of those convicted in the Rochdale and Rotherham cases. They too blame the victims and used the case as showing their culture to be superior to the culture of the victims.

It is not about too many men seeing too many women as objects. it is about people believing women from cultures different to the ones they associate themselves with, (I hesitate to call them Muslims, as that insults Muslims) as being sub human and therefore somehow acceptable as objects.

I don't know what the answer is. If a woman likes to dress up and feel good about herself and if that is appreciated by the men she is in the company of, it has nothing to do with GROLIES or anybody else. This issue will not be addressed by asking women to throw away their nice little red dress and Jimmy Choos and wear a potato sack.

The fact that, like the late Jake Thackray, I love a good bum on a woman, it makes my day.. Issues such as this don't change my stance. Oh, and if you want to capture the public imagination with a crusade, find a sexy way of marketing it. it is the only way to succeed.

Yes, sex sells. Yes, women find ways of attracting men. Yes, men fall for it. Got fuck all to do with this issue. This is about a very specific evil and shouldn't be trivialised by comparing it to the levers pulled to sell products. Marketing doesn't invent sex as an aid, it merely uses the existing tool...

I'm reminded of a throwaway line in a Spike Milligan novel where the magistrate fines someone for having sex in a shop doorway. As they leave the dock, they shout, "Fine all you like, you'll never stop fucking in Catford." Quite.

18 Jan 13 - 10:33 AM (#3468085)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: John P

It seems to me that whether or not someone is a Muslim has very little to do with whether or not they are rapists or sexual abusers in other ways. There are people who act in these evil ways from all cultures and all socio-economic levels. There are good and decent Christians, Muslims, Asians, Africans, Americans, white people and people of color. And there are abusive Christians, Muslims, etc. etc. Since I know a lot more white men than not, the people I come into contact with who target specific groups for rape are mostly white men.

Making this be about Muslims as a group (or Catholic priests, or Asian men, or black gang members, or whatever) is narrowing the definition of the problem, which encourages not looking at the whole situation. It is also, sadly, quite a display of bigotry. All the Muslim men, Asian men, and priests I actually know are decent, loving people who would never consider inflicting themselves on others in this way. As soon as we say "this is done by Muslim men" we are saying that all Muslim men do these things and that is a grave injustice to all the Muslim men who don't behave badly. The problem is that there are people who are willing to rape or otherwise abuse other people, not which ethnicities they are members of.

I think there is something to be said for encouraging governments that promote this type of activity to become more civilized. In the USA, we didn't really get everyone acting better toward black people and women until we forced our government to enact laws making discrimination against these groups illegal, and to generally promote better behavior as a cultural norm. We still have laws against homosexuals, and that is part of the reason that bigotry against homosexuals is still as acceptable as it is. Muslim men who rape girls are guilty as individuals, and the governments that have laws that encourage rapacious behavior are guilty as law-making and enforcing organizations, but whether or not someone is Muslim has very little to do with it.

I would prefer it if we talked about individuals who are rapists and governments who encourage it, rather than about entire nationalities or religions.

18 Jan 13 - 11:42 AM (#3468107)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST

Akenaton - your first post - thank you, that's exactly what I mean.

I find this kind of behaviour from ANYBODY repugnant, I am married to a wonderful woman and have two cracking daughters and I abhor even the thought that someone could regard them in any way as some form of second-class citizen.

What has galled me for ages is the additional leeway that has been allowed for ethnic groups such as Muslim men in this country (UK) in particular, because 'society' was unwilling to grasp the nettle and see what is real.

Fact is, I am incredibly heartened by the majority of your responses above. I also agree that the solution has to come from ALL men. That said, the radical Muslims seem to be more than happy to denigrate all women, Muslim or not. These 'people' - especially the latest group on trial in Oxford are scum and I am only glad that 'we' are beginning to bring them to book. Their behaviour is outrageous, but is fostered by their belief that these girls don't matter - as human beings, that they're only on this earth to satisfy any lust that they wish to exhibit.

I recommend physical/chemical castration to anyone black, pink, white, brown or any other combination of rainbow colours that is proven to treat human beings, but especially young girls this way.

Perhaps that IS radical, but at least there would be some sanction instead of 3 meals a day, central heating, free medication and a generally easy life paid for by the community that they treat with such contempt.

18 Jan 13 - 11:43 AM (#3468108)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Brian May

This software is not holding my cookie - sorry for that.

Brian

18 Jan 13 - 01:43 PM (#3468139)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Steve Shaw

I don't blame it, frankly.

18 Jan 13 - 05:04 PM (#3468247)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Brian May

Steve,

Agreed reference Jimmy Savile.

Thanks for applying your incisive and razor-sharp intellect to this discussion - it's made a real difference.

18 Jan 13 - 06:12 PM (#3468284)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: akenaton

John P is the worst kind of "liberal"....a silencer.
Men of all nationalities are capable of the rape and prostitution of young girls, but these gangs are almost exclusively Pakistani Muslim and their victims white British girls, never Muslim girls!....But this must never be said... according to Mr P.
Common sense tells us that these figures are slightly more than a coincidence, and may be more to do with the cultural attitude of young Muslim men to the female children of "infidels"

The mantra of Mr P and his ilk is to silence truth, whether it be the criminal activity of some cultural minorities, or the horrific sexual health statistics of male homosexuals.

Shhhh.....dont tell the children.

18 Jan 13 - 06:41 PM (#3468291)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,DDT

I have been to Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Egypt and the UAE and I have to say that the men in this region of the world are so sexually repressed that they have the sexual maturity of a 6-year-old. And you see a lot of older men in positions of power such as clerics with young men/older boys for lovers. These clerics rarely go anywhere where they aren't accompanied by these boys--mostly teens (some done up to look like girls). That is about the only steady sex boys of that age have any hope of getting in the Arab world because they are kept strictly segregated from girls. That's why so many of these guys so willingly become suicide bombers. They are so sexually repressed that they are full of rage and are driven insane by it. What do they blow themselves up for? 72 virgins (houris) in Paradise. They would willingly kill and die for a bit of nookie and the men that manipulate them into these acts are telling them at the same time that sex between a boy and a girl is a sin against Allah. It's ok to fuck your brains out in heaven but not on earth. I know many people here are going to call me a bigot and maybe if I hadn't been there myself I'd do the same. But I've been there.

18 Jan 13 - 08:01 PM (#3468308)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Nigel Parsons

It's the same the whole world over:

There once was a student of John's,
Who wanted to Bugger the swans,
Said the loyal head porter,
Sir, take my daughter,
Them swans is reserved for the Dons.

18 Jan 13 - 11:40 PM (#3468347)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Stilly River Sage

John P wrote:
It seems to me that whether or not someone is a Muslim has very little to do with whether or not they are rapists or sexual abusers in other ways. There are people who act in these evil ways from all cultures and all socio-economic levels. There are good and decent Christians, Muslims, Asians, Africans, Americans, white people and people of color. And there are abusive Christians, Muslims, etc.

"The Other" Brian May wrote:
Fact is, I am incredibly heartened by the majority of your responses above. I also agree that the solution has to come from ALL men. That said, the radical Muslims seem to be more than happy to denigrate all women, Muslim or not. These 'people' - especially the latest group on trial in Oxford are scum and I am only glad that 'we' are beginning to bring them to book. Their behaviour is outrageous, but is fostered by their belief that these girls don't matter - as human beings, that they're only on this earth to satisfy any lust that they wish to exhibit.

Akenatan chimed in:
John P is the worst kind of "liberal"....a silencer.
Men of all nationalities are capable of the rape and prostitution of young girls, but these gangs are almost exclusively Pakistani Muslim and their victims white British girls, never Muslim girls!....But this must never be said... according to Mr P.

It's pretty clear here where the bigotry lies - and it isn't with John P.; Brian and Ake see what they want to see.

SRS

19 Jan 13 - 03:00 AM (#3468374)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

SRS, Akeneaton's statement that you quote above is factually correct, except that the victims are almost excusively white but not totally.
There have been Sikh and Hindu victims.
He was describing a particular type of crime here in UK.
Can stating a fact, however inflamatory, be bigotry?

BM's statement about the Oxford gang.
They have not been convicted and deny the accusations.
The accusations by the alleged child victims justify his statement if proved true.

19 Jan 13 - 03:24 AM (#3468377)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle

SRS

Here in England a lot of our old industries are going. There are a lot of families in which there is no tradition of education. The children in these damilies are frequently very deprived and unsophisticated, and vulnerable - very vulnerable.

The education system holds very little for them. For the main part , it is there to reassure them that they are stupid, not university material. That is the Keith Joseph school of tory contribution to the situation. On the other hand these poor children are showered with images of the glamorous consequences of being sexually desirable from the TV.

Now - the present siuation is that a crime which is appearing with sickening regularity before English courts concerns networks of Asian men. Young good looking Asian boys seduce these undervalued children with treats and romantic courtship. The young girls are lured into situations where they are raped, given to older Asian men for sex, blackmailed into submitting to unwanted sexual acts.

This is happening. The reasons it is happening are (as you can see) many and complex. But its got to stop. And men who are offered sex in this fashion must get to understand if they accept it, that they are putting themselves outside of respectable society. Outside of the law. They should in fact, report anyone whom they hear of. doing it.

Calling people bigots who say that this is happening and is unacceptable - well its only playing into the real racists and bigots hands.

19 Jan 13 - 03:43 AM (#3468379)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: akenaton

Exactly so Al....very well said.

19 Jan 13 - 05:11 AM (#3468388)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST

The education system holds very little for them. For the main part , it is there to reassure them that they are stupid, not university material. That is the Keith Joseph school of tory contribution to the situation. On the other hand these poor children are showered with images of the glamorous consequences of being sexually desirable from the TV."
My daughter is at uni in Cambridge and no change to the crap she has to navigate from peers and some "teachers" all aspects of society is damaged.It is up to us as parents to educate our children the edu system is a joke and useless just creates frightened slaves and robots in the main, scary stuff.MY kids have been trying to engage teachers for years but most teachers are in the wrong job,not up to it because of their brain handicap.We should be rearing our children flag-less and race-less enabling them to grow emotionally and spiritually without any ridiculous medieval baggage.I grew up on a council estate but have and do mix with the "knighted" class, and filth knows no bounds.The reptilian part of the brain is the problem it drives society.
The child sex prob in my town has been sickening over the years with the suicides of perpetrators and murder of victims.Some rings were going for decades..all Caucasian.Not a prob specifically to attach to one of the labels it is a human brain prob, just be thankful where we are on the damaged scale and not driven like these sick diseased half life's.Opinion mine 8)

Some Buddhists if i remember correctly roll a stone/pebble on the base of the spine to start the kundalini/spiritual exp.Some Catholic Occultist priests bugger boys of a certain age to do the same,its spiritual rape.These sick bastards filth in turn attracts others who do it just for their own sick personal pleasure. I hope this is not in part what is happening in the Muslim community.

ps no never been dog collar buggerd myself.Know how some minds might work heh love the old tinternet 8)

19 Jan 13 - 05:47 AM (#3468394)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle

What's this 8 business?
Opinion 8
Internet 8

A weird contribution to the debate - Guest. i doubt the grooming gangs are in search of spiritual enlightenment. Pebbles notwithstanding.

Been a teacher myself. most teachers are good eggs. Just in an impossible situation. Education isn't a sure and certain way to the good life - as it appeared to my generation of parents. the kids can see that.

19 Jan 13 - 06:19 AM (#3468411)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST

Most teachers are in it for the wrong reasons and the job is a nightmare i agree,should be a vocation.Majority of my Teachers were mildly angry repressed sad individuals.All the problems we have in society including the topic of this thread are as a result of not understanding how our bodies should work.Go research this ,it is never going to go away until we get over ourselves and understand it.Do the work as the Woman above suggests and to do that most ppl need to educate themselves about their brain and what their full potential is. Enlightenment should be understood more and how it is not that big a deal that each of us should attain it in a lifetime,i hate the word myself meaningless in this day and age.Nothing to fear though it should happen naturally then we would not have to protect our kids from animals.
Re; the animals,very few about that are that diseased, as tragic as this is it is just one of the many symptoms of our failure to understand our bodies/brains.We can train it out of people early and teach them to identify harmful thought patterns.Smileys were because trying to dodge any irrelevant nonsense,but point taken.

19 Jan 13 - 06:26 AM (#3468415)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: theleveller

I agree with John P. Why is the OP making a particular point about the abusers' religion or race? I don't recall Saville being described as a white Roman Catholic pervert.

19 Jan 13 - 06:33 AM (#3468421)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle

Most teachers (along with most writers, artists, musicians, doctors, plumbers etc) are in it to earn a living. Idealism is a nice by product, but it doesn't always pan out.

Sometimes the most idealistic are the worst practicioners - just the way it rolls.

19 Jan 13 - 06:42 AM (#3468426)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: DMcG

As someone whose natural tendency is to be a "bleeding heart liberals who support all things minority" I don't think that is a true parallel, leveller. If it is the case that any one group shows a higher tendendency to unacceptable behaviour than another (be it Muslim, Roman Catholic clergy or anyone else), then it it perfectly proper to identify it and put pressure on the leaders of that group to distance themselves from it and for them to take action to stress to their followers it is abhorrent. That's not in itself racist/prejudiced. On the other hand to present the information in a way that implies it is widespread amongst Muslims, Catholic priests or whoever, is racist/prejudiced.

In the case of Jimmy Savile there is not the slightest evidence that being a white Roman Catholic is any more relevant than being a DJ, or a BBC-sanctioned entertainer, or any of many other possible groupings. Now I don't have any of the figures necessary to say whether the OP's assertion is correct in saying this is more common with Muslim prepetrators than any other group, but it seems a perfectly reasonable thing to analyse the court records and see if there is any statistical significance to the claim and if so to act upon it.

19 Jan 13 - 06:43 AM (#3468427)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle

Maybe OP mentioned it out of a sense of public duty. Attention NEEDS to be drawn to it. the public need to made aware. The intending perpertrators need to know that their card is marked.

A cover up is not on.

19 Jan 13 - 06:49 AM (#3468431)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Steve Shaw

Can stating a fact, however inflamatory, be bigotry?

Yes it can, if the perpetrator misuses context in a deliberately tendentious manner.

19 Jan 13 - 07:03 AM (#3468440)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll

Sorry to interrupt yet another 'hatefest'
In context;
At the last count (2110) there were about 3,000,000 Muslims in Britain
If this is a "Muslim" problem why have only less than 200 Muslims nationwide been implicated in legal proceedings, and where does that leave the indigenous population in relation to paedophilia in general (overwhelmingly an indigenous practice) – can this be described as a white, Anglo-Saxon, British, Christian crime and if not, why not
Jim Carroll

19 Jan 13 - 07:09 AM (#3468443)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie

The white slave trade here in The UK is almost exclusively Eastern European, and then mainly Albanian nationals owning and running the massage parlours the young women and girls are tied to.

If we bring religious aspects into this debate we have to consider these people class themselves as Muslims. Or coptic Christians or cstholicd. Truth is they are none and neither. The rapists in this Oxford case on the other hand may well genuinely believe infidels can be abused.

Either way the point is that the law is the law and contrary to the waffle of clerics of all persuasions, morals transcend religion and ignorance of the law is no excuse. If you don't understand that all people have equal rights and that includes young girls, you are a danger to society and we have prisons to deal with you. Ironically you may find out what it is like to be on the receiving end once you get there.

Comparing cultures isn't helpful. You don't have to be a repressed Pakistani English man to abuse vulnerable people. You just have to be of a mind with opportunities. ..

19 Jan 13 - 07:16 AM (#3468450)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: DMcG

Same answer as before, Jim. We want to reduce the incidences of this crime. If we can identify any group that can influence that reduction, we should do so. It is not in my mind anything to do with labelling the crime but is all about looking for leaders who can assist in preventing it. So of your categories 'Christian' might have some value, because we could in principle persuade the various leaders to put pressure on their subordinates to do something to reduce it. There are no relevant leaders for 'white' or 'Anglo-Saxon' that I can see. For 'British' you have Parliament in general, so that is more or less covered, at least in theory.

Putting labels on anything has no inherent value. It is how you then use the label that matters, and in particular whether the label enhances your understanding of the issues or makes you ignore aspects of it. So I don't have any issue with saying that this crime is more common amongst the XXX-group than elsewhere; but I have a serious problem if that is taken as we need only address the XXX portion.

19 Jan 13 - 07:16 AM (#3468451)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST

Most teachers (along with most writers, artists, musicians, doctors, plumbers etc) are in it to earn a living. Idealism is a nice by product, but it doesn't always pan out.

Sometimes the most idealistic are the worst practicioners - just the way it rolls.""
Must say was expecting more,from a Teacher too.Research the brain and your body its there,science will get you there.The difference between me and you Mr Teacher is that i know how ignorant i am you on the other hand 8).The smileys were because i knew comments like yours would come so you have proven my concern true heh
Anyway me done as Mr Carroll post nails it nicely in my opinion.GL

19 Jan 13 - 07:20 AM (#3468454)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: theleveller

"As someone whose natural tendency is to be a "bleeding heart liberals who support all things minority" I don't think that is a true parallel, leveller."

I rather think that depends on the OP's intention.

19 Jan 13 - 12:48 PM (#3468602)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Stilly River Sage

Sexual Slavery happens all over the world, with all sorts of ethnic combinations. Wikipedia entry.

The San Francisco Chronicle did a series on this subject that I read at the time it came out - it was a real eye-opener, but I haven't heard a lot about the subject here in the U.S. since then. But that doesn't mean it stopped, that just means it isn't being used as a story to bludgeon one particular ethic group, as if they are the only ones doing it. Your pique at the prospect of men grooming girls for sexual slavery is very selective.

Such scrupulous attention to Pakistan/Muslim activity and not lamenting all of the others doing it tells me you've targeted this group in a bigotted manner.

SRS

19 Jan 13 - 12:57 PM (#3468605)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Eliza

I think the point is worth making that some people here in UK wonder if the Police hesitate to prosecute Muslim offenders for fear of provoking either a white racist backlash or a Muslim fundamentalist uprising. In this particular situation one can see that prosecution, conviction and sentencing do happen. So the fact that the sexual predators and groomers were Asian Muslims is quite pertinent. Some people also fear that Asian Muslims regard the white inhabitants of UK as inferior morally and that therefore their 'loose women' (no matter how young) are fair game. I hasten to add that I don't hold either of these views.

19 Jan 13 - 02:39 PM (#3468647)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

one particular ethic group, as if they are the only ones doing it.
It may look wrong to you in US, but this uniquely horrible crime in UK does appear to mainly involve one ethnic group.
Here is a BBC report on the latest case currently being tried.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-21059681

Here is some historical perspective.
http://journalisted.com/andrew-norfolk?allarticles=yes

19 Jan 13 - 03:22 PM (#3468657)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll

"but this uniquely horrible crime"n
Far from unique and so "horrible" that the N of England police refused to follow up reports because the sex was "consentual

19 Jan 13 - 03:24 PM (#3468658)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST

.'The difference between me and you Mr Teacher is that i know how ignorant i am you on the other hand 8).The smileys were because i knew comments like yours would come so you have proven my concern true heh'

Mt name is Mr Whittle. Mr Teacher makes whisky. Highland Cream. There are many differences between us., Guest. The first is that I givemy name out freely and i am not ashamed of my honestly held opinions.

I daresay Jim that if we had the pedigree of sexual hypocrisy of your adopted country - we would be trying to sweep this one under the carpet for a quiet life. there's no future in that though. Not on an overcrowded island like this. We have to get to the bottom of it and sort it out.

They want government grants for their faith schools. We have to be sure that they;re not disseminating attitudes of this nature.

19 Jan 13 - 03:32 PM (#3468660)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

Jim, do you really not find this crime horrible?

Would it make a difference if some of the vulnerable, love starved mites initially consented?
Do Police excuses for not acting to protect sex trafficked children make a difference to the horror of it?
Are you devoid of human compassion Jim?

19 Jan 13 - 06:59 PM (#3468737)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,999

"We have to get to the bottom of it . . ."

Brings to mind a comment by Oscar Wilde.

19 Jan 13 - 07:24 PM (#3468742)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle

Sadly what I say is true. If we were a big country like America. I daresay we could be like them - live with droves of serial killers and gun nuts and they would not become too apparent.

Or if we were a lightly populated country like Ireland - we could have victims of sexual abuse in every woodshed, and still keep up a semblance of normality.

But we don't. We live in a very overcrowded little island. Shoulder to shoulder, and there have to be ground rules. Unlike France and Spain, where they pass regulations about everything and police none of it, in England every parking ticket is an existential dilemma.

but that's the way we like it. Martin Carthy can bang on about the Dowie Dens of Yarrow - we English relate to Elvis , Jim Reeves and the Beatles, Acker Bilk ,the Sex Pistols and Kylie. We're a mongrel nation. And if someone shits in our sleeping place - they need a tug on the lead.

19 Jan 13 - 10:07 PM (#3468810)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,999

Al, I'd back you up anywhere, anytime, no questions asked.

Your email still the same?

BM

20 Jan 13 - 02:31 AM (#3468838)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST

Solutions Mr Whittle, the scary world you lot try to shove on the rest of us does not exist it is your fear it is in your head.Yes we do have nutters from all demographics but your view of the

20 Jan 13 - 02:36 AM (#3468840)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST

sorry cnt....world is yours.I'm saying it is a brain problem science agrees anything else is irrelevant.I reread what i typed yesterday looks a bit snippy but was not my intention.Just imo those with your attitude stop us moving on and time for a whole new approach as the old ways are not going to work anymore.

20 Jan 13 - 02:49 AM (#3468841)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST

Children do see race and difference for instance but it does not matter.They see the diff accept it and there is no problem.Society teaches the hate.Human irrational fears are the real enemy and there are ways to address that and they can be taught/learned.

20 Jan 13 - 03:19 AM (#3468845)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST

The reptilian brain is an ancient beast. It was developed over 100 million years ago. The higher brain or the neocortex came along a mere 40,000 years ago. So, when the reptilian brain is on alert, it's pretty hard for a youngster like our neocortex to tell a 100 million year old brain to behave!2

One of the insights we've learned from body psychotherapy is that hardship in counseling is needlessly provoked if the reptilian brain isn't calmed down first. That is, it's very difficult to dig into our psyche (e.g. and explore childhood issues) when the reptilian brain is calling the shots.

However, when the nervous system is regulated and balanced, it far easier to move through our emotions."

Google it there is loads of material to educate ourselves this is the answer,teaching kids how to center themselves feel good about the world and be emotionally stable,then negative traits thoughts don't happen.Look at those in the world who are causing death and misery they are trapped in this part of their brain permanent angst mild psychosis.Once someone has felt the brain work to its full potential (all religion tries to deliver this imo) you would find it almost impossible to do/think harm to others.Will the globe ever have the will to get this done,doubt it but at least it is now common knowledge that this is the problem so i am hopeful,

20 Jan 13 - 03:54 AM (#3468851)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST

Oh and because of the crap inflicted on us from birth we all have "childhood issues" labels to drop and discard/understand. ps Sorry for minor thread jack.Ignore at your leisure.

20 Jan 13 - 04:24 AM (#3468857)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle

Likewise, wouldn't wish to give offence.

If you say, its all in my head, lets hope you're right. Then it won't bother anyone else, will it?

20 Jan 13 - 04:40 AM (#3468862)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll

"Jim, do you really not find this crime horrible?"
Yes, I do find the constant attempts to smear entire ethnic groups as sexual perverts utterly disgusting because of the actions of a handful of criminals (less than 200 convictions) – yet here we are again with the makings of yet another 'Muslim prejudice' thread.
Virtually everybody who has worked with these young women have stated that there are no racial conclusions to be drawn from these (handful of) crimes: police, judiciary social workers, ex – Home Secretaries.
One brain-dead even doctored his cut-n-paste to remove the latter's having said so, and went on to claim that "all British male Pakistanis were culturally implanted" to tend them towards having underage sex – how sick can you get?
The survey systematically carried out last year warned against drawing racial or cultural conclusions from these events, based on the available and extremely limited evidence, but agenda-driven prats continue t make these claims.
But that's not what you mean, is it?
Of course I find such crimes horrible, and to use them to project a racist message not only perpetuates them, but it abuses these young victims all over again just as they have already been abused.
THERE IS NO PROVEN RACIAL OR CULTURAL REASON FOR THE ACTIONS OF LESS THAN 200 CRIMINALS – IF THERE WAS, EVERY MUSLIM IN BRITAIN (3,000,000 OF THEM) WOULD BE A SUSPECT..
These threads lower this forum to the level of those sites which have been set up specifically to target ethnic minorities, but I have no doubt that that this will not deter these people – so I'll leave you to it
Jim Carroll

20 Jan 13 - 04:44 AM (#3468863)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST

cool.I am sure if we were face to face we would agree on more than you might think,and you may even entertain the thought i might have a point.Gl

J.mc

20 Jan 13 - 04:50 AM (#3468866)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST

'THERE IS NO PROVEN RACIAL OR CULTURAL REASON FOR THE ACTIONS OF LESS THAN 200 CRIMINALS – IF THERE WAS, EVERY MUSLIM IN BRITAIN (3,000,000 OF THEM) WOULD BE A SUSPECT..
These threads lower this forum to the level of those sites which have been set up specifically to target ethnic minorities'

Jim - you are the one who is trying to draw a simplistic conclusion to a complex issue. No one has said the answers are straightforward. What we are saying is - Houston, we have a problem....covering you ears up, isn't going to make it disappear.

20 Jan 13 - 04:59 AM (#3468870)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

Jim.
When you posted about priests abusing children, you never argued that it was not significant because most priests were not involved.

Also, you never argued that it was not significant because most child abuse was committed by non-priests.

There was a real issue about priests abusing children.
There is a real issue here.
Why do you deny an obvious truth?

20 Jan 13 - 05:15 AM (#3468872)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Dave the Gnome

I think you are missing the point, Jim. By your own figures there are 3,000,000 Moslems and 200 of them have been convicted of paedpilia. That makes the ratio of 'normal' Moslems to convicted paedophile
Moslems 15,000 to 1. Exceedingly low indeed. I am assuming that the 200 convictions in in a set period - A year maybe? Or is it since time began?

Anyway, what is the ration amongst the non-Moslem population? There are 60,000,000 people on this island. If the ration was the same we can extrapolate thatthere should be 35.something times more convicted paedophiles of a non-Moslem extraction - More than 7000. Is that the case? I didn't know so I did a quick search.

The simplest statement I found was in the Daily Mirror and said -

Ministry of Justice figures show in 2005, 1,363 people were convicted of sex abuse on youngsters but it was up to 2,135 last year.

Now, allowing an increase in the last few years lets say that 135 were Moslem and the remaining 2000 were not. That means that the proportion in the non-Moslem demographic is 57,000,000 to 2000 or, 27,500 to 1 - A damn sight fewer than 15,000 to 1!

Now, I will be the first to admit that this argument could be wrong. My figures could be up the wall for umpteen reasons and I would love someone to prove me wrong. Can anyone do that? If so, we can put this thread to bed. But, sadly, if not then there does indeed seem to be cause for concern.

Cheers

DtG

20 Jan 13 - 05:29 AM (#3468878)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Dave the Gnome

Oh - And of course the other missed point is that it is specifically white girls that are targetted by these gangs. Do white gangs target girls of other colour by any chance? Does anyone have the figures on that?

D.

20 Jan 13 - 06:00 AM (#3468890)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""Now I don't have any of the figures necessary to say whether the OP's assertion is correct in saying this is more common with Muslim prepetrators than any other group, but it seems a perfectly reasonable thing to analyse the court records and see if there is any statistical significance to the claim and if so to act upon it.""

Quite right DMcG, and the fact that is being ignored is that disaffected girls have been groomed by opportunist males and put to work as sexual slaves since long before the first Pakistani immigrant set foot on British soil.

Also ignored is the fact that the vast majority of new young prostitutes are either groomed British girls or Eastern European imports run by Eastern European men.

Those exploiters' religious orientation is unknown, but it seems likely that they either ignore, or pay lip service only, toward any moral or religious creed.

True, there are now gangs of exploiters who are variously described as Muslim, Pakistani, or both, and certain parties delight in being offered the chance to denigrate those they hate, but the fact is that they are just the ones who happen to be in the news at the moment, not because of their crimes, but because of their origins.

Far from being allowed to get away with it for racial reasons, their activities hit the headlines while East European and British abusers don't even reach local news.

What does that say about this nation?

Don T.

20 Jan 13 - 06:06 AM (#3468891)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,CS

DtG - "I am assuming that the 200 convictions in in a set period - A year maybe? Or is it since time began?"

I really have no idea how many 'Muslim' men may have been convicted of sexual assault against minors in this country 'since time began', but as Jim correctly notes below, despite many reports and complaints being made to police (for something like twenty years in fact) until *very* recently indeed, sexual crimes by gangs of predominantly Pakistani origin against underage girls in the North in particular, were simply not acted upon by police and as such, also until very recently, will not be properly represented in any long-term conviction stats.

We have also been told by those working with the victims of these gangs, that current convictions for the internal trafficking of young girls also represent the "tip of the iceberg" in terms of the likely true volume of vulnerable girls being abused by gangs of men in this fashion, all over the country.

Even though these crimes are finally being addressed by a previously reluctant police force and the convictions against these pricks have now started rolling in, due to the slow nature of our judicial system, I'd guess that the true volume of these crimes probably won't be represented on any stats for at least a couple more years.

As such, unfortunately I don't think that stats can really give us any solid data concerning demographics at present. With respect of data, I think we really have too little knowledge of the full picture for stats to help us to come to any helpful conclusions. The testimony of both victims and those who have worked with the victims of gangs perpetrating these crimes are still probably a more reliable source for useful information about these crimes.

20 Jan 13 - 06:13 AM (#3468895)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""Now, I will be the first to admit that this argument could be wrong. My figures could be up the wall for umpteen reasons and I would love someone to prove me wrong. Can anyone do that?""

The only issue I would take with that is that you need to widen your approach.

You are equating these cases with cases of paedophilia and they are not necessarily the same. You would need to know how many young females are working as prostitutes, having been groomed in exactly the same fashion by non Pakistani, non Muslim males, and factor them into your calculation.

This figure is simply not available, so your comparison fails.

Don T.

20 Jan 13 - 06:18 AM (#3468897)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll

"that it was not significant because most priests were not involved."
Neither I nor anybody else ever claimed that all priests were guilty, and certainly not "culturally implanted" to make them paedophiles, nor did we attempt to link their crimes to their beliefs.
Clerical paedophelia has been a known fact of life for generations and there is ample evidence to prove this. No-one here has produced one shred of evidence to back up their/your disgusting claims of "cultural degeneracy" but there has been ample evidence to the contrary which you and your 'band of brothers' continue to ignore.
Stop making this a one-to-one, address your arguments to us all.
Jim Carroll

20 Jan 13 - 06:31 AM (#3468900)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,CS

DonT - "You would need to know how many young females are working as prostitutes, having been groomed in exactly the same fashion by non Pakistani, non Muslim males, and factor them into your calculation."

Yes, this is the crux of it. The data isn't available in regards to internal trafficking, it's a newly identified crime in this country.

I would add however, we aren't simply concerned with "young females working as prostitutes" but specifically the *sexual slavery and trafficking of underage girls*

20 Jan 13 - 07:04 AM (#3468911)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""I would add however, we aren't simply concerned with "young females working as prostitutes" but specifically the *sexual slavery and trafficking of underage girls*""

I agree C.S. and most of those prostitutes are groomed while underage and vulnerable, so despite the racial agenda of certain people, there is not sufficient evidence available to justify claims that grooming of underage and vulnerable girls is a "Muslim Crime".

It is the racism exhibited in the way they seize on any and every chance to denigrate that particular group which sickens me.

These men and all others who indulge in abuse are the lowest of the low and deserve to rot in jail for ever. They are criminals first and foremost because of what they do, not because of their race or religion (which our resident antis seem to wrongly believe are one and the same).

If Akenaton and Keith A really share my disgust with the criminals and concern for the victims, they might try applying that disgust and concern across the spectrum of abuse, rather than tagging "Muslim" onto every comment.

Don T.

20 Jan 13 - 07:29 AM (#3468918)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

Jim.
Neither I nor anybody else ever claimed that all priests were guilty,
Obviously, and no-one has claimed all Pakistanis (BPs) are involved either.
Obviously it is a small minority.

their/your disgusting claims of "cultural degeneracy"
It is a lie that anyone claimed or said "cultural degeneracy" Jim.

There was certainly a culture within the catholic Church that allowed abuse to go on.
I have quoted members of the BP community who have stated that cultural factors are behind this abuse.
I wouldn't know, but see no reason to dismiss their lifelong experience and knowledge.
Why do you dismiss it Jim?
Don?

20 Jan 13 - 08:12 AM (#3468927)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

Don.
If Akenaton and Keith A really share my disgust with the criminals and concern for the victims, they might try applying that disgust and concern across the spectrum of abuse,

Who is not disgusted by child abuse Don.
Most occurs within families, and neither race nor culture nor ethnicity nor religion have anything to do with it.

The particularly horrific abuse that is the subject of this thread does show a pattern in the offending.
You can not be suggesting that such horrific crimes would not be reported if the perpetrators were not from a minority group.
How many such cases can you recall?

20 Jan 13 - 08:54 AM (#3468943)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll

"The particularly horrific abuse that is the subject of this thread does show a pattern in the offending."
Less than 200 convictions from a population of 3,000,000 is only a "pattern" to those who would wish to make it such - which is exactly why those working with the victims warned against drawing any racial or conclusions - aimed at people like you.
Claiming "all male Pakistanis are implanted..." is to accuse them of cultural degeneracy - want me to pull up the quote?
Jim Carroll

20 Jan 13 - 08:55 AM (#3468944)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie

Just a question really.

Most commentators appear to be aware that repressed males become frustrated males and when culturally you are taught that females are different to the point of not sharing your day with them, it can be a problem. When females from other cultures are seen by those who teach you such things as sub human it becomes a huge problem. When the ignorant teachers invoke religion as the difference, it can lead to these horrendous situations.

However, to say that a minority of Muslims is about as useful as pointing out that BNP membership tells you something about white males. Or the number of ginger people who support SNP.

Christian teaching here in mainstream UK is that women are not worthy of responsible jobs in churches and gay people are not worthy of marriage.

As a result it is seen as acceptable to say so. Relate that to a poorly educated young man from a Pakistani family whose role model is a poorly educated imam who knows how to relieve sexual frustration without contravening his interpretation of Scripture and look at the horrendous results.

Then wonder why rational thinking precludes invoking religion to disguise more secular bigotry. ..

20 Jan 13 - 11:56 AM (#3469003)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Brian May

To Whom It May Concern

Assuming your figures to be correct . . . that's 200 CONVICTED criminals who appear to working in gangs.

Like it or not, it appears to be a pattern and my apparent racist bigotry seems to be shared, if you bother to look, at the instances in the links posted by Keith of A, just because you don't like him or me or Akenaton, doesn't mean that what is being said is wrong.

If 200 have been convicted, how many more are out there? What I find most objectionable, and it seems to have missed your notice, is their attitude - a MUSLIM attitude that seems to regard women of any ethnicity as second class citizens. I resent that and that is why I keep pointing out that it seems to go with the territory. It seems to ring a bell with the Nazi ethos of inferior races and is unacceptable.

It's not MY attitude, its THEIRS. But you keep writing our opinions off as racist - which you will anyway. Sad fact is, you will eventually see because this is a growth problem. I sincerely hope that none of yours, or people YOU know are affected because that'll wreak havoc in your world when you finally realise how blinkered you've been.

20 Jan 13 - 12:41 PM (#3469018)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,CS

Brain, as Eliza put it early on this thread abuses against women occur worldwide in all kinds of countries. It isn't just a 'Muslim' thing by a long straw. About 80% of the population of South Africa would consider themselves to be a member of the Christian religion, and yet South africa is also known as 'the rape capital of the world', it's a place where a young girl has a better chance of being raped than of learning to read.

Where I will likely differ from some other contributors to this thread is that I tend to believe that culture plays an important role in both collectively held beliefs about women (how they should act, what they should wear etc.) and to what degree physical and sexual abuses against women are either actively sanctioned or quietly condoned within particular communities.

20 Jan 13 - 01:34 PM (#3469050)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie

Sadly, the most effective way of being racist is to come out with racist generalisations.

Using the comments of bigots to justify your stance doesn't help either.

I'd stick to home made guitars and astronomy myself. More credibility and less chance to embarrass myself....

20 Jan 13 - 01:46 PM (#3469053)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Eliza

Agree CS. And 'culture' can encompass modern teenage culture in UK, where girls are seen merely as sexual oblects by lads, videoed and their photos passed around. There is a distinction between culture, race and religion. But sadly all three can have a bearing on how women are regarded and how rape is (or isn't) dealt with. I still feel that strong laws stringently enforced can do much to prevent abuses. Homophobia and racism have been addressed by legislation here in UK and the result is a lot less of both. Rape must be taken as an extremely serious offence, no matter of what race, religion or culture either the victims or the offenders are. Any other approach is by very definition racist and discriminating.

20 Jan 13 - 02:43 PM (#3469078)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

Less than 200 convictions from a population of 3,000,000 is only a "pattern" to those who would wish to make it such

There have been a string of such cases that have reached the courts.
Everyone involved mostly BPs.
That is the pattern.
Workers in the field and local MPs say there have been many, many more cases over many years that follow the same pattern.

Do not try to stigmatise me over the culture thing.
I only repeated what prominent and eminent members of the BP community stated, that cultural factors led to that abuse.
I myself have no knowledge of the culture.
They have.
They grew up in it and live in it.

20 Jan 13 - 02:49 PM (#3469084)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Dave the Gnome

Good points Don and all. There are no figures which tell us about the prostituation and trafficing so, as you say, there is no real comparison to be made. I still say though that, working purely under the KNOWN figures, those for underage sex and grooming, my comparisons stand.

Which means, Jim, that you really need to stop quoting your 200 cases in a population of 3 million. Yes, it is low, but is is still twice the number of the 2000 cases in the population of 57 million non-moslems. And that is a significant differernce. We are also still not addressing why the Moslem gangs target young white girls while the other gangs - Be they East European, British, Yardies or Triads seem quite happy to target any females. These gangs may be evil - But at least they are not racialy biased like the Moslem ones!

DtG

20 Jan 13 - 03:04 PM (#3469087)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll

"If 200 have been convicted, how many more are out there?"
We can only make an assessment on crimes we know about, not what might happen in the next five, ten - however many years.
Throughout the whole of Britain, (Muslim population 3,000,000) with not even a suggestion that there is any connection between them, 200 is a minuscule number.
Not all of these cases include the pimping of girls, some of them are acts of individual underage sex rather than procurement.
You would't even be right if these people were the only ones committing these offences, but despite claims here, these crimes are not exclusive to Muslims - seducing a woman, young or old in order to pimp her has been the long-standing practice of sexual predators, and recognised as such – our scabloid press (like our resident Islamophobe) has chosen to concentrate only on Muslim criminals.
Crimes of this nature have been present throughout history and all over the world for as long as sex has been a marketable commodity.
"I only repeated what prominent and eminent members of the BP community"
No you didn't, you failed to produce one single quote - but it doesn't matter - you put it forward as "my opinion" - it is an outrageously racist statement, making you a...... guess what?
Jim Carroll"

20 Jan 13 - 03:31 PM (#3469095)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

but it doesn't matter - you put it forward as "my opinion"
Blatant lie Jim.
I stated, REPEATEDLY, that it was "not my opinion."

It was the opinion of all those eminent BP commentators.
You can claim it was not their opinion if you like.

I am happy to dispel your concern.
I have no opinion or any knowledge about BP culture.
I do not care if they do it for cultural reasons or not.
I just want them to stop.

Now Jim.
How many non BP cases of this crime can you recall?

20 Jan 13 - 04:22 PM (#3469114)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,CS

DtG - "We are also still not addressing why the Moslem gangs target young white girls while the other gangs - Be they East European, British, Yardies or Triads seem quite happy to target any females."

From various anecdotal sources I have seenin reading around this topic, it would seem that Sikh and Hindu girls were the first victims to be targeted by Pakistani gangs. I have also read that a source of serious racial tensions and resultant violence between Sikhs, Hindus and Pakistanis in this country, particularly during the 90's, were reputed campaigns by groups of young Pakistani Muslim men forcibly converting young Sikh and Hindu girls to Islam by seducing, beating and/or raping them, which - as these men know - makes their victims unmarriageable and often outcast according to the standards of their own communities - thus leaving them with no-where else to turn, but back to their abusers.

I'm not sure to what extent, if any, practices like raping a young Hindu woman to induce a 'forced conversion' are linked to the practices of gangs such as these today, perhaps not at all, but all I'm getting at is that from what little I understand, while the bulk of present day victims may be white, I don't think Pakistani / Muslim based gangs, have always targeted 'white girls' in particular.

20 Jan 13 - 04:39 PM (#3469116)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Big Al Whittle

Can't see much more point in discussing this.

People are getting too worked up about a situation none of us can affect.

We are what we are.

America has been telling itself that problems can be solved by a man with a gun, since the first Wild West comics in the 19th century. its part of their culture = they believe it.

Ireland has been telling itself that violence is in the fabric of its being, political violence has forged its identity - Seamus Heaney writes poems about it. The national anthem is The Soldier's Song.

Two generations and less ago, many UK citizens were living in villages on the Indian sub continent - believing all kinds of weird stuff.

Eventually they'll get the hang of living in England. Its probably not going to be paradise for them (just as it isn't for us) but its probably one of the best deals going.

20 Jan 13 - 05:04 PM (#3469129)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

I agree Al.
The depravity in these cases is sickening.
There have been so many through the courts now.
Almost all the offenders are linked by ethnicity.
Some of us think it significant.
Some of us think it is a coincidence.
We are not going to agree, so let's drop it.

20 Jan 13 - 05:33 PM (#3469143)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Dave the Gnome

OK, CS

I don't think Pakistani / Muslim based gangs, have always targeted 'white girls' in particular.

I do not know if this is true or not but I have no reason to disbelieve you. However, your point makes things somewhat worse if anything. What you seem to be telling us is that they target any non-moslem girls. Is that correct? They use this awful crime to ensure that any girl not of their own religion is shunned by her own society. Yes? Sorry, but that makes them even sicker than I thought. To do this is bad enough. To do it in the name of religion is preposterous.

DtG

20 Jan 13 - 06:23 PM (#3469166)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: akenaton

Game set and match Dave!

20 Jan 13 - 08:18 PM (#3469212)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Steve Shaw

Trouble is, achy, Dave's post is mere conjecture. That's like Andy Murray having a dream about beating Roger Federer, waking up and claiming game, set and match to his mum. What it says about you is that you'll take anything anti-Muslim on board, uncritically and with glee, declaring game over. Actually, it says even more about you, but let's just see for now how this pans out, shall we?

21 Jan 13 - 02:36 AM (#3469287)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Dave the Gnome

Hey Steve - My post was not conjecture. It was based on the conjecture in CS's post. Which was probably based on someone else's conjecture...

If you get three conjectures in a row don't you still win?

:D tG

BTW - 100!

21 Jan 13 - 03:28 AM (#3469292)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll

"Blatant lie Jim.
I stated, REPEATEDLY, that it was "not my opinion."
Why do you insist on lying about something that's on record?

"Muslim Prejudice
Date: 13 Feb 11 - 07:10 AM
Don, no one on this thread has claimed any of those things.
Don I do now " believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency" but only because of the testimony of all those knowledgeable people, and always acknowledging that only a tiny minority succumb.
Do you dismiss all that just because it does not fit your preconceptions, or do you have some powerful evidence to the contrary that you have not shared with us?"
Jim Carroll

21 Jan 13 - 03:45 AM (#3469296)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

Yes Jim.
I believed it because those people were saying it, like the weather forecast.
Not my opinion as I stated many times in the next few posts.

I do not know or care anything about that culture, nor if that culture leads to this crime, and I am not going to play this silly game with you again you sad person.

That was three years ago and the pattern of offending was already clear.
Since then there has been a string of dreadful cases going through the courts, all involving BPs.

You think it is all a huge coincidence?
Fine, but you are alone.

21 Jan 13 - 04:20 AM (#3469307)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST

DtG - "I do not know if this is true or not but I have no reason to disbelieve you. However, your point makes things somewhat worse if anything. What you seem to be telling us is that they target any non-moslem girls. Is that correct?"

Dave, naturally, like the rest of us, I can only read what materials are out there about this type of crime and form my own 'suppositions' from them. I can't say that I'm 'correct' on anything. That said, I had a quick hunt online to try to find something to support statements made in my previous post for you. Here's an article from the Times of India (there may be other sources out there if you want to look further) which might be of interest:

QUOTE: "Feeling emboldened by Straw's statement, UK's Hindu and Sikh organizations have also come in open and accused some Pakistani men of specifically targeting Hindu and Sikh girls. "This has been a serious concern for the last decade," said Hardeep Singh of Network of Sikh Organizations (NSO) while talking to TOI on Monday.
Sikhs and Hindus are annoyed that Straw had shown concern for White girls and not the Hindu and the Sikh teenage girls who have been coaxed by some Pakistani men for sex and religious conversion.
"Straw does other communities a disservice by suggesting that only white girls were targets of this predatory behaviour. We raised the issue of our girls with the previous government and the police on several occasions over the last decade. This phenomenon has been there because a minority of Islamic extremists view all 'non believers' as legitimate targets," said director NSO Inderjit Singh.
Targeted sexual offences and forced conversions of Hindu and Sikh girls was not a new phenomenon in the UK, said Ashish Joshio from Media Monitoring group.
"This has been going on for decades in the UK . Young Muslim men have been boasting about seducing the Kaffir (unbeliever) women. The Hindu and the Sikh communities must be commended for showing both restraint and maturity under such provocation," he added.
Hardeep said that in 2007, The Hindu Forum of Britain claimed that hundreds of Hindu and Sikh girls had been first romantically coaxed and later intimidated and converted by Muslim men."

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2011-01-10/pakistan/28365413_1_sikh-communities-hindu-and-sikh-white-girls

21 Jan 13 - 04:24 AM (#3469308)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,CS

Me below.

21 Jan 13 - 06:24 AM (#3469345)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll

"I believed it because those people were saying it, like the weather forecast."
Then you have lied, and you continue to lie.
"Blatant lie Jim.
I stated, REPEATEDLY, that it was "not my opinion."

No politician or "prominent person" has ever made such an outrageously racist statement because:
A They would be committing political suicide to do so
B They would be breaking the law by inciting racial hatred and would stand a good chance of being prosecuted.
You are fully aware of this fact so you continue to lie; you have yet to provide one single example of this, yet you continue to make such a claim - it is simply not true.
I persist in pointing out your gutter attack on a whole gender of an ethnic minority (and will continue to do so) because I believe it represents the source of many of the arguments here – that there are communities in Britain whose culture makes them inferior to the point of degeneracy – a threat to our way of life.
The last to put this into words was Powell the Arch-Scumbag whose "Rivers of Blood" speech led to his being disowned by his own party and big cast into the wilderness of Ulster Loyalist politics – no better place for him.
The "degenerate culture" idea is certainly not new. I can still remember after the 'Windrush' days, being told that West Indians not only instinctively lusted after white women, but they were so abnormally physically endowed that they could seriously damage, or even kill any woman they laid hands on (of course, West Indian women were built to manage such abnormalities).
Jim Carroll
PS Who on earth believes the weather forecast?

21 Jan 13 - 06:29 AM (#3469346)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll

"Since then there has been a string of dreadful cases going through the courts, all involving BPs."
Less than 200 nationwide out of a population of 3,000000
Jim Carroll

21 Jan 13 - 06:44 AM (#3469355)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Dave the Gnome

200 nationwide out of a population of 3,000000

I keep saying be very careful with this statistic, Jim. It seems to be almost twice the national figure in 2006 of 2000 convictions for paedophillia in the non-moslem population of 57 Million.

No-one has, as yet, brought anything to the table which explains why the incidence of this crime amongst the Moslem population is double what it should be. Can you enlighten us maybe?

DtG

21 Jan 13 - 06:47 AM (#3469358)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""Do not try to stigmatise me over the culture thing.
I only repeated what prominent and eminent members of the BP community stated, that cultural factors led to that abuse.
I myself have no knowledge of the culture.""

You really ought to have that "Get out of jail free" mantra tattooed on your forehead so that people would know that there is no possibility of real debate with you.

It covers your cowardly arse very neatly to have what the USA calls "plausible Deniability".

Don T.

21 Jan 13 - 06:53 AM (#3469360)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""Rape must be taken as an extremely serious offence, no matter of what race, religion or culture either the victims or the offenders are. Any other approach is by very definition racist and discriminating.""

And that Eliza, in two sentences, encapsulates exactly what the majority of this forum have been trying to get across to the anti Muslims for three years. Well said!

Don T.

21 Jan 13 - 07:01 AM (#3469362)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

Jim, they all said it was due to aspects of culture, e.g. attitudes to females, courtship practices (or lack of), arranged marriages, etc.
Our own Eliza made the same points.
Don, do you think I am pretending not to know much about that culture?
How much do you know?

People who know about the culture said it led to the pattern of offending.
I see no reason to dismiss their opinions, but I really do not care why they offend.
There is certainly no excuse for it.

Now Jim, why do all these cases involve mostly BPs?

And yes, saying most offenders are BPs does not mean most BPs are offenders.
I always acknowledged that they are not.

21 Jan 13 - 07:07 AM (#3469363)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Richard Bridge

I am vaguely reminded of the strange cults (some nominally Xtian) which encouraged conversion by "flirty fishing".

Anyway, I was discussing something vaguely similar (actually the prevalence of paedophilia which I think is very rare) with my girlfriend just the other day and she was adamant that the "community" in Catford (then pretty much a BNP area, was her experience)where she was brought up could identify about 200 local paedophiles - mostly known to the police but not convicted, without exception white, and many very specifically interested in her. She has a lovely skin tone - not white.

I suspect that the usual suspects here and the police (also verylargelywhite) see what they want to see - the old mnemonic for the colour codes of resistors.

21 Jan 13 - 07:12 AM (#3469365)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""I keep saying be very careful with this statistic, Jim. It seems to be almost twice the national figure in 2006 of 2000 convictions for paedophillia in the non-moslem population of 57 Million.""

Dave, you keep referring to paedophilia, which (although there may be a few examples among this gang) is a different crime and much less prevalent than grooming of underage girls.

Paedophilia only relates to prepubescent children.

Grooming encompasses ages up to seventeen or eighteen, so your paedo figures don't equate to the cases currently under discussion.

Another point which Keith & Co don't want to hear is that cases of grooming and trafficking of young girls are dealt with in the courts every day of the week all over the UK, but the ones that make the Media get up on their hind legs are exclusively those involving the current Media whipping boy, the Muslim.

They can't openly make racist comments any more, so, like Keith and Ake, they gleefully jump on anything which supports their bias and can be called "NEWS!"

Don T.

21 Jan 13 - 07:21 AM (#3469366)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Dave the Gnome

Aha - A glimmer of reason maybe? I would accept that the rate of conviction amongst the Moslem population is almost twice the national average due to policing methods.

Richard - Do you think that is feasible? We know for certain that certain 'profiles' are more prone to arrest because they are more likely to be questioned. Is this happening with the Asian population as well as those who are black now?

Funnily enough I experienced a very minor version when I was a young motorcyclist. I must have been stopped and checked out at least twice a week back in the early 70s. Never been stopped in a car or as an older motorcyclist. Unfortunately when the police are measured by arrest rate they will always go for what is seen as the 'easy' option. Whether it is right or not!

DtG

21 Jan 13 - 07:33 AM (#3469374)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""People who know about the culture said it led to the pattern of offending.
I see no reason to dismiss their opinions, but I really do not care why they offend.
There is certainly no excuse for it.

Now Jim, why do all these cases involve mostly BPs?""

1). Those same people made a point of saying very clearly that ""no cultural conclusions should be drawn"", yet that is exactly what you choose to do. It is your opinion, not theirs.

2). There is, as you say, no excuse for it......No matter who, or what, the culprit is.

3). These cases do not involve many British Pakistanis, nor do they involve mostly British Pakistanis, but those which do involve British Pakistanis are the ones which most often get the attention of our gutter press.

And, since you don't seem to get "hints", I have given them back the humanity you attempt to strip away by reducing them to BPs.

Don T.

21 Jan 13 - 07:33 AM (#3469375)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

Don, you are claiming that there are lots of cases of non-BP gangs convicted of trafficking children, but not being reported.

Why would Left Wing and Liberal media do that.

One journalist tried to make that point in the Guardian a few months ago, but he could not produce a single case.
Instead he produced lone white paedos which we all know about and which had been reported anyway.
We had a thread about it.

So Jim and Don, why do all of the string of such cases involve mostly BPs?

21 Jan 13 - 07:36 AM (#3469377)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Musket

Bridge's use of the resistor code takes me back to when I was at college, (ex colliery electrician for my sins) and the lecturer using the BBROYGBVGW acronym. A black colleague in the other class related that the BB became Bad Boys for his class.

These were outrageous then, never mind now. But they were also socially acceptable in most circles hence I remain unsurprised that some older people on this thread see no problem with voicing the prejudice that formed part of their background and experience. No difference between that and other cultures teaching that infidel women are expendable. Some are shallow enough to believe it, most are mature enough to see through it.

DtG mentions being stopped a lot when younger. Many years ago, I worked night shift but a Friday night was always 5.30pm till 12.45am, in order not to bugger up your weekend. So, as a young lad driving through the town centre at 1.30am on a Saturday morning, I was constantly stopped and breathalysed. Profiling does happen, and it is based on risk. Funnily enough, I was sometimes stopped, but once they saw the wet hair and "eye liner" asked if I worked at the pit and apologised for stopping me..... Most of my older colleagues rarely got stopped.

Stephen Lawrence's brother, a teacher in his '30s, said last week that he gets stopped and questioned at least monthly for no reason. Makes you think, it really does...

Not that agreeing with Bridge was ever part of my agenda you understand.

21 Jan 13 - 07:42 AM (#3469382)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Dave the Gnome

Don - You keep saying that, but the convictions were all for crimes related to underage sex. I will stick to the term underage sex rather than paedophillia if you like but the term is irrlevent. There are still 200 people convicted of crimes related to underage sex in the Moslem population of 3 Million and 2000 in the non-Moslem population of 57 million. A difference of almost 2 to 1. Now, I have already said I don't know the reasons for this. I have gone so far as to suggest it could be racial prejudice within the police force. But, whatever it is, something needs to be done to redress the balance.

Now, if you want to compare procurement, prostitution or living off immoral earnings then please feel free to provide comparative figures for those crimes but I believe that we are discussing crimes related to the grooming and sexual abuse of underage girls here are we not?

Cheers

DtG

21 Jan 13 - 07:54 AM (#3469386)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll

"So Jim and Don, why do all of the string of such cases involve mostly BPs?"
They don't, and even if they did, 200 out of 3,000,000 would not not even register on the abuse Richter scale.
We know (and have pointed out) that others use, and have always used exactly the same methods first seduction, then pimping - it is as much a part of or sex-trade culture as it is anybody else's.
Our press (and racists like your good self) choose to highlight only Muslim criminals for their/your agenda - that's what makes news in the popular press.
Still no explanation for your lying I see!
Jim Carroll

21 Jan 13 - 08:31 AM (#3469399)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

Jim, like Don you claim that there are non-BP convictions but because all the media are racist we do not hear about it.
I think The Guardian and the BBC would strongly refute that.

You are reduced to making ludicrous claims to avoid addressing the fact that over the last 4 years there has been a stream of these appalling cases of gangs serially raping and pimping vulnerable children, and most of the offenders are BPs.

21 Jan 13 - 08:46 AM (#3469405)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll

Is anybody here seriously suggesting that the techniques described in the Muslim trials are NOT used by Eastern European sex traffickers or by our indigenous sex-for-sale industry?
These cases are recent and they are occurring in communities which are traditionally recognised as being law abiding, industrious and unintrusive to the point of being accused to being "secretive" - all of which makes them "newsworthy".
Similar crimes in other communities are not highlighted because they are ongoing - the are reported in the local papers as local news, (and such crimes certainly are challenged as being "Exclusively Muslim" in left wing publications regularly) but they are part and parcel of the British sex scene in general.
While the national press does concentrate on Muslim crimes I can't recall any responsible newspaper (left or right) attempting to claim that these crimes happen nowhere else - can anybody else?
Keith and his ilk rush to quote "experts" (in some cases, having doctored reports) but they always ignore the fact that Jack Straw, judges, police and other involved warned that "it would be wrong and to draw any racial or cultural conclusions from these events".
Jack Straw actually described some of the criminals as being no different from any other testosterone-driven" young men from any racial or cultural group - a statement that Keith saw fit to omit from his cut-'n-paste.
Jim Carroll

21 Jan 13 - 09:20 AM (#3469419)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: ChrisJBrady

As we have seen over the last few days Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance - NOT.

The title of this thread is not accurate. These thugs are not 'men' they are paedophiles / pedophiles. Hence the term for the area where these thugs frequent - the old mill towns of the North of England such as Blackburn, Bolton, Rochdale, and other ghettos like Luton, Southall and Slough in the South - is paedostan / pedostan.

It seems that the Asians have a monopoly of abuse against women what with gang rapes and murders in India, and acid throwing Pakistanis.

But then acid throwing seems to be the action of choice now-a-days, even the reputation of the Russian Bolshoi Ballet has been seriously affected by the blinding of its Director over soe insignificant internal spat.

Allah and God and JC (if they exist - which I doubt) must be turning in their graves at such misinterpretation of their teachings of love and tolerance to all.

21 Jan 13 - 09:21 AM (#3469420)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Richard Bridge

I'm fascinated by the assumption that we have "left-wing and liberal media". Most of the press and TV channels are quite to the right. The BBC used to strive for neutrality (even after Thatcher emasculated the balance requirement) but recent statistical analysis has shown that for example the panel membership on the flagship "Question Time" is strongly skewed in favour of the right. The Times, Telegraph, Mail and Sun are very very right wing. Every so often the Independent surprises me and fails wholly to toe the right-wing line, but I see it as generally right of centre. When the Star talks about anything apart from tits it is kneejerk ignorant right.

The Mirror is less to the right but you could not call it far left of centre, and the Grauniad while left of centre is so mostly in a fairly muzzled, muesli-eating, sandal wearing sort of way.

For example no part of the press or media other than the Guardian and the Morning Star (the latter a tiny tiny market) defend against the current government demonisation of the poor and less able as "benefit scroungers". And while Musket says some sensible things above (shock horror) he follows that media bias too.

Left wing and liberal media? I wish.

21 Jan 13 - 09:21 AM (#3469421)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

The East European cases do not involve school kids.
No case involving gangs pimping, trafficking and serially gang raping children would ever go unreported whoever the offenders were.
So, why have all such cases involved BPs?

21 Jan 13 - 10:00 AM (#3469448)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,999

All such cases haven't, Keith.

21 Jan 13 - 11:09 AM (#3469468)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,CS

KeithA: "The East European cases do not involve school kids."

I don't know anything too much about East European human trafficking gangs in particular, but one statistic I have read was an estimate by UNICEF that 2 Million children were trafficked for sex globally in 2007. It's both an internal trade in numerous countries (including both developing and developed nations) as well as an international one. I haven't found the statistics concerning exactly who's responsible for this huge global trade in child sex trafficking, but it stands to reason that Pakistani gangs can't be in control of all of it.

21 Jan 13 - 11:12 AM (#3469469)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Musket

For media bias, read "anything that doesn't accord with the Bridge view."

Back to reality..

21 Jan 13 - 11:38 AM (#3469481)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Richard Bridge

How would you know truth or reality when you move, like the Lord Mandelson, in such mysterious (and profitable) ways?

21 Jan 13 - 11:48 AM (#3469483)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

999, thanks. There are certain similarities but I would not regard that as the same crime.
Likewise CS.

We are discussing a very distinct and mercifully rare crime, and these similar but distinct crimes just muddies the water.

Having said that, there really is nothing new to be said about the original.

21 Jan 13 - 01:36 PM (#3469517)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST

"The East European cases do not involve school kids." "No case involving gangs pimping,"
Of course they ******* do - what world do you live in?
It's an acknowledged fact that many of the asylum seekers brought from Eastern Europe are families with school aged children, some of whom are put on the game.
No gangs pimping - are you mad? There's a whole network of Eastern European sex smugglers operating out of Southampton and Dover alone.
Perhaps you could provide evidence to the contrary - somebody has already pointed out that facts and figures are virtually non-existent, but there have been a number of BBC documentaries on school aged girls being run as prostitutes.
I suggest you read CS's posting again (if you've bothered in the first place.
And you have ignored our own 'Lolita' ladies who have long been a part of the prostitution racket - you really are twisting the facts to suit the agenda.
I take it you are not going to acknowledge Jack Straw's (and the other's) warning about not using these cases for racist and cultural conclusions - you were the one who lauded him as one of your experts.
you may not recognise it as the same crime - but your "experts" did.
Jim Carroll

21 Jan 13 - 01:53 PM (#3469529)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

Automatic death penalty for ALL paedophiles and ALL who are involved in the 'sex-trafficking' business in any way.

That would rid the world of many humans who, imo, have no right to be here in the first place.

Time for The Men Of The World to stand up as One, for it ain't women who are having sex with little girls, even though, I'm sure, *some* sick women won't be averse to making money from this trade.

I'll say it again, until The Men Of The World fix this, it will continue...and continue....and continue....

Sorry, NO sympathy for anyone who is involved in doing this to children, no matter who they are, where they come from, what background, race OR religion...

The world is far too overcrowded anyway, so the sooner we just say "Your life is over." to this kind of scum, the better..We've all endured it for way too long and far, FAR too many children and young women (some young men too) have had their lives torn apart from such an early age...and so many never recover.

It is totally abhorrent and inexcusable.....

Lizzie
A Mother...who would kill anyone who hurt her children...as would, probably, most Mothers (and Fathers)

21 Jan 13 - 02:25 PM (#3469542)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: akenaton

Yes Lizzie there are natural laws, abuses of which are irredeemable.
Sexual abuse, or rape and murder of children crosses that line.

It is the type of crime that makes the skin of most humans creep.

The ughhhh factor is max!

I'm generally against capital punishment, but would be happy to put these creatures out of their misery.

21 Jan 13 - 02:44 PM (#3469551)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie

Mysterious and profitable? A bit rich coming from a solicitor if you don't mind me saying so.. I'm only mysterious in that I don't conform to a single outlook and apply it to all situations unlike some of the usual suspects in this thread.

Nice to see a weird yet somehow vaguely feminist view reading its head in this debate. That's right dear, execute societies problems on the basis of overcrowding. Now be a dear and put the kettle on. Might at least get something useful from your presence on this thread.

No real answer to this issue other than each case on merit and an understanding of UK society's expectations. Sadly it will take time to get there, but other than the disgusting remedies put forward by unhinged idiots, I for one fail to see an an alternative?

21 Jan 13 - 02:44 PM (#3469552)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Richard Bridge

Oh, do the courts always get it right? Are all convictions correct? What are you going to do to bring the wrongly executed back to life?

Idiots.

21 Jan 13 - 02:54 PM (#3469557)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""but I believe that we are discussing crimes related to the grooming and sexual abuse of underage girls here are we not?""

Indeed we are, and grooming is and always has been the preferred method for recruiting new young stock in the prostitution and sex slavery industries worldwide.

These Muslim gangs are doing much the same thing, procuring girls for sex, and that's the reason why I say that our resident Muslim bashers (including the press) are playing down that fact in order to serve their racial hate agenda.

You, I know, are not foolish enough to believe that a bunch of 21st century Pakistani Muslims have invented a totally new way to get their jollies.

Those who do believe that need to broaden their horizons and do some serious reading, but they won't, because they're too busy doing what they claim the Muslims are doing, reducing a whole culture to subhuman status.

THAT is the point I'm making.

Don T.

21 Jan 13 - 03:01 PM (#3469559)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll

Some examples of the "uniqueness" of Muslim sexual abuse of underage girls in Britain.

"More than 5,000 underage girls are working as prostitutes in Britain, and the number caught soliciting has doubled since 1990, according to a three-month investigation."
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/underage-prostitution-doubled-in-five-years-1601277.html

That's the hard truth to face up to. Notions of racial groups and 'grooming' are a distraction. The idea that men come along, identify vulnerable girls and exploit them has some truth in them, but it also masks a deeper reality of children whose lives are a state of such emotional confusion that affection, abandonment, violence, love and abuse become fused into a single crushing experience of life-long neglect and exploitation.
It's much simpler to blame Asian gangs, Belgian bullies and street-wise groomers. It simplifies the problem of poverty and neglect and exonerates the fundamental injustices in society that are at the root of sexual exploitation. It allows us to look the other way and, tragically, in doing so, prolongs the abuse of children.
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/2011/12/02/child-sexual-exploitation-uk/

There has been a growing awareness of human trafficking, in particular the trafficking of women and underage girls into the UK for forced prostitution. A particular high profile case resulted in the conviction of five Albanians who trafficked a 16 year old Lithuanian girl and forced her to have sex with as many as 10 men a day.[40]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_the_United_Kingdom

A customer may negotiate an exchange directly with a prostituted child in order to receive sexual gratification, or through an intermediary (pimp) who controls or oversees the child's activities for profit. The provision of children for sexual purposes may also be an object of exchange between adults. Many children are prostituted over the Internet with the use of webcams to facilitate this abuse, and child pornography may be linked to the prostitution.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_the_United_Kingdom

UK A HUB FOR EUROPEAN CHILD PROSTITUTION
http://www.iol.co.za/news/world/uk-a-hub-for-european-child-prostitution-1.78006#.UP2cKH5BAvQ

Jim Carroll

21 Jan 13 - 03:04 PM (#3469560)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""recent statistical analysis has shown that for example the panel membership on the flagship "Question Time" is strongly skewed in favour of the right.""

Name one left wing party which could be invited to form part of that panel Richard.

Since the program panel consists of political party reps, with a token celeb, and the British Communist Party is non existent, anything left of centre is impossible.

I'm on the far left of the Tories, which places me to the left of many Labour Party members and MPs.

Don T.

21 Jan 13 - 05:21 PM (#3469640)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Dave the Gnome

Thanks Don, a very sensible and civilised answer. But it does not address the issue of why, whatever you call the crime, are more Moslems being convicted of it that non-Moslems? Is it skewed policing? Or skewed reporting? I would hope it is one or the other because, if not, my belief that everyone is the same under the skin will be shot to hell!

Surely there is some simple explanation of why this is happening. I just cannot see what it is yet.

Cheers

DtG

21 Jan 13 - 05:54 PM (#3469650)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Richard Bridge

There are Labour MPs or recent ex-MPs who are fairly left - try Marshall-Andrews, or Austin Mitchell. There are leftish writers - Polly Toynbee for example. There are other British left wing parties - Respect, Socialist Workers, Socialist Labour Party, etc.

And NO Don, with the exception of this thread you are somewhere off to the right of the conservative party on many issues.

21 Jan 13 - 06:34 PM (#3469666)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST

There are many problems going on here and every one has their pet hobby horse concerning Muslims wether for or against.
if you believe me or not it does not matter, these are facts Muslim boys believe that white men are infidels and white women are below contempt. Boys brought up, born in this country know how to play the game, incomers from the likes of Iran Iraq Syria etc don't, female teachers have a hard time with them, spitting at them is not uncommon plain disobedience again is not uncommon and whilst their mothers try, as soon as father gets involved women should know their place. The sad fact is the world is changing, we in this country are not, we think our sense of fair play works as soon as anyone cross,s over the borders. Not what may wanted to be heard here but we as a country have to wake up and stop smelling the flowers and start thinking how other people see us and our children

21 Jan 13 - 07:09 PM (#3469685)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: akenaton

"Liberalism" will find a way of excusing anything Lizzie...no matter how vile.....except of course, those who do not toe the party line.

The unforgiven!

21 Jan 13 - 07:12 PM (#3469688)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: akenaton

But, as we are no lorger obliged to take responsibility for ourselves, how can we be expected to take responsibility for society?

21 Jan 13 - 09:44 PM (#3469735)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST

A lot of garbage in this thread.

Most Muslims are not extreme anything.They are trying to get along, do their job, feed their families and raise their kids like everybody else.

Many Muslims are white Caucasian or white in whatever classification.
The "white race" or Caucasian has many representatives in Asia, including the Indian subcontinent.

In our city, Calgary (1.2 million metro), we elected a Muslim mayor. He is excellent in the job, does a good job of advertizing the Foothills City, and can have the job for as long as he wants it.

Extremists or crazy people are not confined to any one race.

21 Jan 13 - 11:20 PM (#3469760)
Subject: Some things I am certain of and some I'm not
From: Mysha

Hi,

I'm from a culture where, 150 years ago, women could be killed if they had lost their honour, 100 years ago women had no right to vote, 50 years ago women were expected to mind the house and children, and 25 years ago university was a mostly male affair. I'm a male, and in the group I was with last Sunday, females prepared the food and did the dishes. Does that make me a bigot?

I'm a member of a forum where guest posters are welcome, provided they post with a distinguishing nom de plume. I've been raised not to judge if I can not even recognise my own faults. How should I regard a thread where quite a few messages are posted by "Guest"?

I've just watched a television program about the rise of humans. This thread, according to its title, is about "Muslim men" and about "white girls". What are those?

Bye
Mysha

22 Jan 13 - 02:56 AM (#3469796)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

Mysha and last Guest, I agree that faith has no relevance to these offences.
We have her large Indian Muslim and African Muslim communities, none of whom have been involved.

Jim, I do not challenge anything in your post except its relevance.
Here is an update on the Oxford trial.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-21125565

Such a crime would get maximum media coverage whoever was accused.
The only such that have ever been reported, just in the last 4 years, are the ones I am referring to.
A feature they share in common is that the crimes were reported and ignored years before.

22 Jan 13 - 03:19 AM (#3469800)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle

Well Lizzie's plan would solve the unemployment problem. Whole squads of executioners working flat out to kill all yhose people.

They say Henry VIII had about seventy two thousand people executed in his reign. That would be a drop in the ocean if you killed all paedophiles, anyone who had hired a prostitue, presumably all the prostitutes, all the pimps, all the phone sex workers, all the people who phoned them..... I mean its all sex traffic.

Auswitzch would be a new standard in moderation.

Just cos you're different to these people doesn't give you the right to kill them, Lizzie.

22 Jan 13 - 04:07 AM (#3469810)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll

Keith
You have stated repeatedly that these crimes are exclusive Muslims, your latest gem was 'no European gangs running underage girls' - to borrow one of your own phrases, "all lies".
Please don't hesitate to ask for further examples, plenty to choose from
And Jack Straw et al's warning about using these cases for racist purposes - I assume you are going to continue to ignore this request
Jim Carroll

22 Jan 13 - 04:20 AM (#3469811)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

I know about E.European trafficking, but I really have never heard of under age kids being trafficked here.

You have stated repeatedly that these crimes are exclusive Muslims,
Lie.
I never have.
I have often stated that these specific crimes are mostly BP, which is a fact, but only in response to denial.

22 Jan 13 - 04:25 AM (#3469813)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

I was wrong about child trafficking from abroad.
It is mostly from SE Asia though, and not all are trafficked for sex.
BBC.
There is currently no official figure for the number of victims trafficked into the country each year.

However, the report said 712 adult victims and 234 child victims were reported last year to the National Referral Mechanism, the official body that identifies and looks after those caught up in trafficking.

Of the victims referred in 2010, 524 were adults and 186 were children.

It is thought the increase could be explained by improvements in identifying victims, although campaigners say the figures of those being trafficked could be far higher as many victims choose not to come forward for fear of being deported.

The report suggested an increase in the number of children being forced into crime, including street begging.

The Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre estimates there are about 300 child trafficking victims in the UK every year.

22 Jan 13 - 04:31 AM (#3469817)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

E.Europe child trafficking.

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2003/10/traf-o25.html

22 Jan 13 - 04:42 AM (#3469819)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Musket

Oh come on. Why don't we have a thread where Keith A and Jim Carroll thrash out where they have opposing views? Nobody else need look at it. it can be especially for them. Everybody else takes it in turns to pick on a subject and leave them to it for the following week.

Sorry chaps, but every bloody thread which has intangibles and difficult subjects ends up with what you two call debate and most others call contradiction.

Jim - Keith is a little Englander. Live with it.

Keith - Jim has the whinging sorry outlook of your typical expat. Live with it.

Sorted.

Back to subject;

It occurs to me that although I live in North Lincolnshire, not exactly a melting pot of differing cultures, when we put on a dinner or throw a BBQ, we have pots and a BBQ purely for Halal meat and similar for vegetarian food. When we make our annual vat of mincemeat for mince pies etc, we make a few without suet in the mix. We also have learned to be inventive with interesting alcohol free drinks rather than just offer orange juice. (More wine and beer for me, but that's another matter...)

Why? No reason other than society evolved and people live, work and play alongside each other whilst the usual commentators make a lot of money and influence by noting differences. Twenty years ago, the originally foreign colleagues and their families we call close friends would have been wary and formed their own circles of friends. Ditto us.

Increasingly, it isn't the situation. Perpetuating the differences is obscene enough, but using recent court cases to prove the point is neither helpful or decent. I have no solutions, but neither have I read any above.

(An aside; Bridge seems to heap praise on Austin Mitchell MP. He broke the solicitor stranglehold on buying your own home. Top man, managed to break an obscene monopoly and allow more people to become good small time capitalists. Mind you, would you buy a house in Grimsby?)

22 Jan 13 - 04:52 AM (#3469822)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

I agree with all that Musket (except the bit about me obviously).
Perpetuating the differences is obscene enough, but using recent court cases to prove the point is neither helpful or decent

I agree, and deny that anyone here has done that.
I was only drawn into this by people denying that there was an issue at all.
There clearly is an issue and I think it is not helpful to deny it.

22 Jan 13 - 05:39 AM (#3469834)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""Or skewed reporting?""

I think that's the answer Dave, and it's really quite logical. We know that the European sex trafficking and prostitution racket is both pervasive and highly organised, and while the police are constantly dealing with the problem by arresting the girls, there has been little progress in getting at the underlying structure of the problem.

These Pakistani (though they aren't actually exclusively either Pakistani or Muslim) gangs are a comparatively new development, and not only do they stand out from the crowd, but also they are largely amateurs.

The press seize upon them as different and because scandal sells papers. Never forget that the agenda of the Media is primarily to make money, not diseminate news.

So, what better for selling papers than to highlight the misdeeds of a group which happens to be a part of the current Media bogeyman, the Muslim?

Keith demands court case specifics for my claims. All he needs to do is a little research on the ages of girls charged with or convicted of soliciting.

But he won't, because it would spoil his "All Muslims have the tendency to groom and rape WHITE girls" mindset.

That explains his dismissive reaction to the fact that Hindu and Sikh girls are also targetted.

Don T.

22 Jan 13 - 05:41 AM (#3469838)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""And NO Don, with the exception of this thread you are somewhere off to the right of the conservative party on many issues.""

That Richard is a plain straightforward lie.

Don T.

22 Jan 13 - 05:47 AM (#3469839)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

his dismissive reaction to the fact that Hindu and Sikh girls are also targetted.

Don, far from dismissing it, it was me who first pointed that fact out, both on this thread and on the 2010 thread!

22 Jan 13 - 06:00 AM (#3469842)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 19 Jan 13 - 03:00 AM

SRS, Akeneaton's statement that you quote above is factually correct, except that the victims are almost excusively white but not totally.
There have been Sikh and Hindu victims.

Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 23 Jan 11 - 09:43 AM

The victims are not all sluts.
They were not all picked up on the streets late at night.
Those ones tended to be girls within the care system.
Girls from respectable families have given their stories of being enticed away from shopping malls in daylight.
Not all white either.

22 Jan 13 - 06:11 AM (#3469848)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: theleveller

"it ain't women who are having sex with little girls"

An awful lot of opinions being put foreward as fact on this thread.

Leaving aside Myra Hindley and Rosemary West for the moment, you might like to consider this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8022861.stm

As for your thoughts on the death sentence, in my opinion that would put society on the same level as the offenders. Sorry, but you either believe in the sanctity of life or you don't.

22 Jan 13 - 08:04 AM (#3469882)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll

"I was wrong about child trafficking from abroad."
Which blows your claim of "a predominantly Muslim crime" clean out of the water.
The sheer number of European gangs pimping underage women relegates Muslims to the bottom of the list once you take into consideration the indigenous sex trade, which reaches deep into the British establishment – tip of the iceberg?:.
http://www.cuttingthroughthematrix.com/articles/Partial_List_of_Convicted_British_Paedo_Politicians.html

"I agree, and deny that anyone here has done that."
What!!!!!!!
This has been your case throughout these squalid threads - that grooming and procuring underage girls for sex has been predominately, if not exclusively a Muslim act - built into their culture even.
Quote:
"So, why have all such cases involved BPs?"
You have even accused the police of ignoring this behaviour because the perpetrators were Muslims - making the police - what exactly - at least accomplices to underage prostitution?

A fair summing up of your attitude to date:

"THIS IS HOW RACISM TAKES ROOT
THE DIFFERENT WAYS THE MEDIA COVERED TWO CASES OF MEN GROOMING CHILDREN FOR SEX SHOW HOW SHOCKINGLY EASY IT IS TO DEMONISE A WHOLE COMMUNITY
Joseph Harker
The Guardian, Sunday 22 July 2012 20.30 BST
Five of the eight men convicted of child sex abuse in Derby: Mark Adaoui, John Shaw, Stefan Godfrey, Anthony Lambert and Ijaz Ahmed. Photograph: Caters News Agency
By now surely everyone knows the case of the eight men convicted of picking vulnerable underage girls off the streets, then plying them with drink and drugs before having sex with them. A shocking story. But maybe you haven't heard. Because these sex assaults did not take place in Rochdale, where a similar story led the news for days in May, but in Derby earlier this month. Fifteen girls aged 13 to 15, many of them in care, were preyed on by the men. And though they were not working as a gang, their methods were similar – often targeting children in care and luring them with, among other things, cuddly toys. But this time, of the eight predators, seven were white, not Asian. And the story made barely a ripple in the national media.
Of the daily papers, only the Guardian and the Times reported it. There was no commentary anywhere on how these crimes shine a light on British culture, or how middle-aged white men have to confront the deep flaws in their religious and ethnic identity. Yet that's exactly what played out following the conviction in May of the "Asian sex gang" in Rochdale, which made the front page of every national newspaper. Though analysis of the case focused on how big a factor was race, religion and culture, the unreported story is of how politicians and the media have created a new racial scapegoat. In fact, if anyone wants to study how racism begins, and creeps into the consciousness of an entire nation, they need look no further
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jul/22/how-racism-takes-root

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/police-launch-criminal-investigation-into-mps-child-sex-ring-8456434.html

22 Jan 13 - 08:13 AM (#3469885)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

Which blows your claim of "a predominantly Muslim crime" clean out of the water.
Again, it is a lie that I have EVER related the crime to religion.

The crime I have been talking about, where gangs target vulnerable local children, groom them, rape them, pimp and traffic them, as in the string of court cases over the last 3 years, have mainly involved BPs.

You have even accused the police of ignoring this behaviour because the perpetrators were Muslims

It is an undisputed fact that police DID ignore this crime.
Why they did is yet to be established.
Some individual officers have stated that it was because of ethnicity.

22 Jan 13 - 08:18 AM (#3469886)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll

"Keith - Jim has the whinging sorry outlook of your typical expat. Live with it."
I resent that - I was whining about goose-steppers like Keith long before I left the UK to live in Ireland.
Where I live has nothing whatever to do with my opinion, which was part of my upbringing. This is especially true as I was born and spent 55 years of my life in the UK.
My present place of residence is a regular ploy by Keith when he has been cornered - 'rat-at-the-throat', so to speak.
It proves nothing other than to underline his (and other's - you seem to have caught a dose of his disease) xenophobic little-Englander outlook on life - "you only have a right to be listened to if you can prove current residence" - grow up - the pair of you.
Jim Carroll

22 Jan 13 - 08:22 AM (#3469889)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll

"Again, it is a lie that I have EVER related the crime to religion."
You have persistently claimed this to be a predominately "Muslim" crime - has Islam ceased to be a religion.
Your now admitted claim that "all male Pakistanis have been culturally implanted" underlines that.
Get help Keith
Jim Carroll

22 Jan 13 - 08:39 AM (#3469901)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

Jim.
You have persistently claimed this to be a predominately "Muslim" crime
That is the third time today you have made that accusation.
It is still a lie.
I have NEVER related the crime to Islam.
Why must you always attack instead of discuss, and why the need to LIE?

We had a thread about that Harker story you pasted.
The crimes he said other papers had not reported, actually had been reported.
Also the crimes involved lone paedos, not trafficking gangs.
It was discredited.
He had no case.
read the thread

22 Jan 13 - 09:52 AM (#3469918)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll

Throughout these threads you have emphasised that these criminals were Muslims – or maybe you believe it's Pakistanis who are to blame.

"Don I do now " believe that all male PAKISTANI MUSLIMS have a culturally implanted tendency"

If you weren't making your claim that it was their religion was to blame why even bother to mention that the criminals were Muslims, what on earth has their religion got to do with it and who are you now claiming to be the leading perpetrators?

You are now attempting to create a diversion – your argument that these people are all Muslims or Pakistanis, or whatever racial or cultural group you are claiming committed these crimes, you have no case
The facts are that almost certainly the greater number of people committing these crimes are indigenous to Britain, possibly followed by Eastern European sex traffickers – but there are no researched figures and you have never had a basis for your claim.
You have persistently ignored evidence put before you and have dodged answering questions.
You have deliberately manipulated the facts, including your own "evidence" throughout many of the threads you have contributed to – it seems to be your stock-in-trade.
Respond to the articles you have been given or go away.
Jim Carroll

22 Jan 13 - 10:22 AM (#3469929)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

I used that phrase because it was a direct reply to Don and that was the phrase he used.
All thjese posts were made BEFORE that post, so I had already made my position clear.

Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 05:28 PM

This particular crime, dubbed street grooming, is the domain of male muslim gangs according to the people in a position to know.
There is lots of other dreadful crime for which other groups are responsible, but let us accept that this is a crime that the culture (not the religion) of the Pakistani community is largely responsible for.

Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 24 Jan 11 - 06:07 AM

I agree that there is an issue about parenting and the security of children in care.
I hope that is not being offered as an excuse for the sexual abuse of children.
Anne Cryer gave a very plausible explanation of why these abusers are mostly from that community.
It is nothing to do with Islam.

: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 25 Jan 11 - 09:13 AM

I was referring to the British Pakistanis.
Their culture is quite distinct from Turkish Moslems, Tunisian Moslems, etc.

: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 28 Jan 11 - 06:43 AM

Don, on 24th January I said about this issue "It is nothing to do with Islam. "
I do not "see the problem as a Muslim one,"
I have always said specifically that it is not.

22 Jan 13 - 10:51 AM (#3469950)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""Some individual officers have stated that it was because of ethnicity.""

Another of your unattributed and unsupported statements, drawn out of thin air?

Or can you quote those individuals, with relevant evidence?

Don T.

22 Jan 13 - 11:18 AM (#3469959)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 22 Jan 13 - 05:47 AM

his dismissive reaction to the fact that Hindu and Sikh girls are also targetted.

Don, far from dismissing it, it was me who first pointed that fact out, both on this thread and on the 2010 thread!""

So you were the one who raised the point in the first place on this thread???

LIAR!

""Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,CS - PM
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 04:22 PM

DtG - "We are also still not addressing why the Moslem gangs target young white girls while the other gangs - Be they East European, British, Yardies or Triads seem quite happy to target any females."

From various anecdotal sources I have seen in reading around this topic, it would seem that Sikh and Hindu girls were the first victims to be targeted by Pakistani gangs. I have also read that a source of serious racial tensions and resultant violence between Sikhs, Hindus and Pakistanis in this country, particularly during the 90's, were reputed campaigns by groups of young Pakistani Muslim men forcibly converting young Sikh and Hindu girls to Islam by seducing, beating and/or raping them, which - as these men know - makes their victims unmarriageable and often outcast according to the standards of their own communities - thus leaving them with no-where else to turn, but back to their abusers.""

Your response, 42 minutes later, ignoring the statement completely:

""Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 20 Jan 13 - 05:04 PM

I agree Al.
The depravity in these cases is sickening.
There have been so many through the courts now.
Almost all the offenders are linked by ethnicity.
Some of us think it significant.
Some of us think it is a coincidence.
We are not going to agree, so let's drop it.""

If anyone ever posts something really damaging to your argument, your first instinct is to kill the thread.

I'd call that dismissive (and I'm being over generous here), wouldn't you?

Don T.

22 Jan 13 - 11:18 AM (#3469961)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

I quoted them all in the 2011 thread Don.
Now, are you going to apologise for "his dismissive reaction to the fact that Hindu and Sikh girls are also targeted." ?

22 Jan 13 - 11:22 AM (#3469962)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

So you were the one who raised the point in the first place on this thread???

I actually repeated the post for you today Don.
It is true.
Another apology required!

22 Jan 13 - 11:23 AM (#3469963)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll

WHO ARE YOU IDENTIFYING AS THE CRIMINALS HERE IF IT IS NOT MUSLIMS? AND PLEASE ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THE EVIDENCE YOU HAVE BEEN GIVEN LEAVES YOUR "Muslim/Pakistani/Asian/foreigner/ex pat/
..... whoever accusation dead in the water

22 Jan 13 - 11:26 AM (#3469965)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,999

And here I sit so patiently
Waiting to find out what price,
Ya have to pay to get out of
Going through all this shit twice.

A slightly paraphrased partial stanza from Bob Dylan's "Stuck Inside of Mobile (with the Memphis Blues Again)."

22 Jan 13 - 11:26 AM (#3469967)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

Your earlier post which mentioned "there have been Sikh and Hindu victims" is so dismissive as to beggar belief in its obvious implication that this was almost unworthy of mention.

C.S. was the first to give it something like its true import as the origin of later abuse of white girls, whereas you attempted to imply that a few sikh and Hindu girls had more or less accidentally been abused.

Don T.

22 Jan 13 - 11:46 AM (#3469974)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

The majority of those involved in this particular crime have been British Pakistani men.
Only a tiny number, but that is the fact.
How does it help to deny it?

22 Jan 13 - 01:32 PM (#3470030)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

I was the first on this thread to STATE that there were Hindu and Sikh victims, as I also was in the 2011 thread.
You owe an apology.
You called me "LIAR" in capitals.

Very few of the victims of this crime have seen their abusers charged.
None of the Hindu or Sikh victims have.

22 Jan 13 - 01:53 PM (#3470039)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll

"Only a tiny number, but that is the fact."
No it isn't and the only way you can claim this is by ignoring the facts you have ben givem
Jim Carroll

22 Jan 13 - 02:04 PM (#3470040)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

You will never admit it Jim, so let's give it up.
It does make you look a bit silly though.

22 Jan 13 - 02:43 PM (#3470055)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll

Sure it does!!!!!
Byee

22 Jan 13 - 02:43 PM (#3470056)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll

Sure it does!!!!!
Byee

22 Jan 13 - 04:37 PM (#3470099)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

From Al: >>>>"Well Lizzie's plan would solve the unemployment problem. Whole squads of executioners working flat out to kill all yhose people.

They say Henry VIII had about seventy two thousand people executed in his reign. That would be a drop in the ocean if you killed all paedophiles, anyone who had hired a prostitue, presumably all the prostitutes, all the pimps, all the phone sex workers, all the people who phoned them..... I mean its all sex traffic.

Auswitzch would be a new standard in moderation.

Just cos you're different to these people doesn't give you the right to kill them, Lizzie."<<<<<

I said this:

>>>"Automatic death penalty for ALL paedophiles and ALL who are involved in the 'sex-trafficking' business in any way...."

And I meant it. ANYONE who is a part of sex slavery, *forcing* children, young people to have sex against their will, in order that their 'masters' can make money from their utter misery does not deserve The Right To Life in any way.

I am sick to death of excuses being made for Sociopathic Bastards who care not one single iota about what they do.

ANYONE involved in sex-trafficking, sexual slavery is shit, basically....and that includes men who use these poor slaves for a quick sexual thrill, who ogle pornograhic photos of children or who use women for sex who are, quite literally, being violated by them because this is NOT the life they wanted or ever expected....

It's way past time we started to face up to the fact that there are some VERY sick people amongst our Species and the sooner we have the guts to admit this and then do something about it, the better....because, until we do, these vile people will continue their hideous trade of innocent souls who DO have a Right To Life and a bloody DECENT life at that!

AND...we need to start asking WHY some men want to have sex with children, sometimes BABIES, in the first place...

It is NOT normal
It is NOT natural
It IS **************NOT************* ACCEPTABLE!

And as long as people say "Oh well, it's ALWAYS been this way!" then IT WILL CONTINUE!

22 Jan 13 - 05:21 PM (#3470113)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Richard Bridge

Musket, you get more moronic by the day. I heaped no praise on Austin Mitchell. I merely pointed out that he was left of most Labour MPs. His part in breaking the conveyancing monopoly was also moronic. I have NEVER yet picked up a file where a "licensed conveyancer" was involved without finding MANY cockups by that half-arsed semi-qualified idiot. And I'm not even a conveyancing expert. The breaking of the monopoly was stupid, stupid, stupid.

22 Jan 13 - 05:52 PM (#3470134)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,999

It's difficult to disagree with you on this, Liz.

22 Jan 13 - 10:44 PM (#3470218)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle

Well I disagree, Lizzie. I don't believe in hurting or killing anyone.

The child sex thing is frequently associated with impoverished and dreadful upbringings - which have always been on offer in every culture. Generally the poorer, the higher the incidence of this sort of depravity.

If you taught in a poor area - you would know this first hand. Believe you me, its gets weird beyong your worst imagining.

In fact the levels of child abuse are double that of the general population amongst native Americans - that you are always banging on about as the fount of all wisdom. So you'd end up hanging your own mates.

And you can bluster til your bum turns green - you're wrong!

23 Jan 13 - 03:01 AM (#3470245)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

Don T.
Your earlier post which mentioned "there have been Sikh and Hindu victims" is so dismissive as to beggar belief in its obvious implication that this was almost unworthy of mention.

C.S. was the first to give it something like its true import as the origin of later abuse of white girls

It was not dismissive, it was me reporting a fact, in correction of something Akeneaton had posted.
In the 2011 thread I posted quotes from Hindu and Sikh authorities condemning the abuse of their girls by BP men, and thereafter included them in my lists of evidence.

It did not precede the abuse of white girls, it was concurrent.

23 Jan 13 - 03:22 AM (#3470248)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

My posts
5 march 2011
UK's Hindu and Sikh organizations have also come in open and accused some Pakistani men of specifically targeting Hindu and Sikh girls. "This has been a serious concern for the last decade," said Hardeep Singh of Network of Sikh Organizations (NSO) while talking to TOI on Monday.

Sikhs and Hindus are annoyed that Straw had shown concern for White girls and not the Hindu and the Sikh teenage girls who have been coaxed by some Pakistani men for sex and religious conversion.

"Straw does other communities a disservice by suggesting that only white girls were targets of this predatory behaviour. We raised the issue of our girls with the previous government and the police on several occasions over the last decade. This phenomenon has been there because a minority of Islamic extremists view all 'non believers' as legitimate targets," said director NSO Inderjit Singh.

same day
Hardeep said that in 2007, The Hindu Forum of Britain claimed that hundreds of Hindu and Sikh girls had been first romantically coaxed and later intimidated and converted by Muslim men.

23 Jan 13 - 03:40 AM (#3470253)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll

I can't believe that anybody could be so evil as to continue attempting to make the abuse of young women a race issue after overwhelming evidence to the contrary and after the warnings by those involved in investigating these cases that it would be wrong and irresponsible to claim racial motives.
There is nothing whatever to distinguish the behaviour of this handful of criminals from that of any other sex peddlers throughout the world and from time immemorial.
This from the US 'Human and Smuggling Trafficking Center in the US
The descriptions of the methodology of acquiring women for sex is not just similar, but identical to that described in the British press.
Sick, sick, sick!!!
Jim Carroll

"HUMAN SMUGGLING AND TRAFFICKING CENTER
.......includes a civil remedy allowing trafficking victims to sue their traffickers in federal district courts Thirty states have passed legislation criminalizing human trafficking and directing law enforcement agencies to adopt training programs to enhance identification and interdiction efforts.9 If victims are identified in one of these states, arrest and prosecution of traffickers can occur at the state level. In addition, most states and local authorities have laws relating to prostitution that can be used to prosecute pimps at the state and local level.
VICTIMS - SEX TRAFFICKING
Research indicates that most victims of sexual trafficking into and within the U.S. are women and children, particularly girls under the age of 18. Currently, there are no known cases of adult men being trafficked for commercial sex acts in the U.S.; however, adult males have been victimized in labor trafficking cases. 10 A victim has to be subjected only to a form of force,
fraud. or coercion once to meet the definition of "trafficking victim" so long as that misconduct was aimed at obtaining their labor. services. or a commercial sex act. The force. fraud. Or coercion does not need to be sustained. Being a relative of the victim does not excuse trafficking activities.
While human trafficking is about exploitation and does not require the movement or transportation of the person, USC trafficking victims can often be identified in situations where the victims are moved from one location to another irrespective of distance. The movement of a victim is a common control technique used to isolate the victim; the distance may range from a
couple of miles from the victim's home to several states.
THE GROOMING PROCESS
The perpetrators of trafficking employ a "grooming process" to draw their USC victims away from their homes or to gain the trust and dependency of young victims who may have run away from home. The first step is often the development of a relationship with an older man, who the victim comes to regard as her "boyfriend". The perpetrator assesses the victim's needs (vulnerabilities) and offers flattery, material items such as money, jewelry or clothes, and/or displays other "acts of love". The adolescent female may be enticed to begin a sexual relationship with her "boyfriend". The adolescent will be encouraged to stay away from home for increasingly longer periods of time, eventually leading to her not returning home at all.
Within a short period of time, the victim is often encouraged to take a short trip with the "boyfriend" for what seems like a reasonable cause. It is often at this point that the perpetrator will try to convince the victim to prostitute herself The "boyfriend" may start the process of exploitation by introducing the victim to other groups of men and asking the victim to provide sexual favors to the men because they are his "friends". If the victim doesn't agree to do so, she will then be subjected to violence, abuse, or other coercive measures, with the objective of giving the "boyfriend" dominance and control over the victim.
By this stage, the victim may be in no position to refuse the "boyfriend's" commands and is frightened and compliant. 12 She may find herself in an unknown part of the city, or perhaps a different city all together. The victim realizes that she, her family, nor anyone else knows where she is. The victim may know the city or area they are in, but may be unable to provide family or police with their specific location if able to contact them. This element of control, exercised by the "boyfriend" and other men, reinforces the victim's vulnerability and she becomes psychologically dependent on them.
A number of other control methods will be utilized by the trafficker to control the victim.
"House Rules", which are rules for interacting with the trafticker, authorities, 'johns" and other customers, along with nightly quotas, etc., will be established and the trafficker will enforce rule violations with violence. Some victims have described being subjected to extreme physical and sexual violence, being required to commit other criminal acts, and to recruit other potential
victims. If the victim is underage, the trafficker will often provide the victim with a false name and date of birth to use if encountered by authorities.
PIMPS AND SEX TRAFFICKERS
The terms "pimp" and "trafficker" are not necessarily synonymous. Depending on the jurisdiction, a pimp may not be violating any law. A pimp can be defined as one who finds and manages clients for a prostitute and manages the women in prostitution in order to profit from their earnings. A pimp may not necessarily force a woman to stay with him in order to prostitute her. So, even if prostitution is illegal, a pimp who doesn't use force, fraud, or coercion to compel adult women to prostitute themselves would not be considered a trafficker. On the other hand, any pimp who knowingly manages a minor would be considered a trafficker. Additionally, a trafticker could be someone who knowingly profits from coerced prostitution even if he or she is not directly involved in the management of the prostitutes. For instance, a human smuggler in Guatemala would be considered a trafficker if he was knowingly bringing people to the U.S. to be trafficked, even though he would not be considered a pimp.
INDICATORS OF RISK
At the start of the grooming process, young people often exhibit behavior that can alert family, friends, and professionals that they may be at risk of being sexually exploited.
The victim may also consider themselves to be in a romantic relationship and want to please their partner and do what he says so that he won't end the relationship."
"http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/113612.pdf

23 Jan 13 - 03:53 AM (#3470255)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

I can't believe that anybody could be so evil as to continue attempting to make the abuse of young women a race issue

No-one is Jim.
I though we had finished.
Your "byees" are so funny.

23 Jan 13 - 04:07 AM (#3470256)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,CS

@ Lizzie

I definitely think sentencing for serious sexual assault of children is ridiculously low. An abuser can often be out to abuse again after a couple of years (the courts place more importance on money than on children's safety). If there's no internally established sense of wrong for someone who is sexually *attracted* to children (remember that many peadophiles do not molest children, but instead use non-abusive paedophilic erotic materials like fiction and cartoons - these non-abusive peadophiles who restrain themselves, just don't make headlines) then prison is no deterrent. People who get caught abusing and are imprisoned and then released, just simply go back to do it again. I'm not in favour of death sentences (people can be wrongfully killed for one thing) but I would be in favour of actual life for serious child sex offenders, and especially repeat offenders.

23 Jan 13 - 04:24 AM (#3470263)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,CS

To clarify, I don't consider consenting sexual contact between *teenage peers* to represent sexual assault and it should be de-criminalised.

23 Jan 13 - 04:30 AM (#3470265)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Eliza

Agree, CS. They need containing for life, to protect children. Somewhere such as Broadmoor. Paedophiles using erotic material is still abhorrent to me. It can be pics or photos, which of course involve abuse in front of a camera. Even the idea of cartoons or literature for paedophiles makes me feel sick. I can identify with Lizzie's anger and suggestion of the death penalty. However, (and I often find this hard to adhere to) I don't personally think one can take a life for an offence, no matter how grievous or evil.

23 Jan 13 - 04:31 AM (#3470266)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: selby

On the subject of prison sentences or not and I am not into the rights or wrong of the case merely the result that has happened in the context of this dare I say discussion.
The lady convicted in Bali of drug smuggling who has been given the death penalty her mind and I suspect a few others has been really focused. The ultimate deterrent to all reasonable human beings is unfortunately death. Will it answer the problems discussed in this thread I very much doubt it, we are dealing with bullies and thugs who prey on the weak and the term reasonable human being does not apply to them. Is there an answer I don't think so thugs and bullies have always prayed on the weak since the beginning of time, it is part of a humans make up, if you look objectively at people you can see these traits surface in various forms, I once worked for a boss in a big organisation who was a complete B*****D, he got to me so much that I turned on him, pointed out whilst i had him by the throat that his behaviour was unacceptable to me, we became good friends after that as he realised he had overstepped the mark with me, but he still bullied other people as he saw it as part of his job as being a boss, he was a lovely man when you got to know him, but the bully thug part of his make up in a certain condition surfaced
Keith

23 Jan 13 - 04:47 AM (#3470271)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: akenaton

Surely the point is not whether these gangs target white girls, Sikhs or Hindus, abuse and prostitution of young teenagers is wrong regardless of ethnicity.

The point seems to be that they do not target girls from their own ethnic background, which is in almost all cases British Pakistani
That would seem to point to a cultural aspect? Unless you think that white children....the vast majority of victims, are morally inferior?

23 Jan 13 - 04:59 AM (#3470274)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,CS

"Even the idea of cartoons or literature for paedophiles makes me feel sick."

It's still true to say that these types of erotic materials (unlike videos and photographs of real children) do not exploit and cause no harm to children. I also think that they represent a useful avenue for paedophiles to - for want of a better term - find some kind of outlet for their sexuality. As a pragmatist, I'd rather these kinds of materials were readily available, fully legal (not all harmless paedophilic materials are legal) and non-stigmatised. What happen's in other people's heads is their business, I'd just rather it stay there.

23 Jan 13 - 05:01 AM (#3470276)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Backwoodsman

If the Death Penalty is re-introduced - for any offence - we will have regressed as a nation. Murder is murder, no matter who carries out the act of killing, and murder by the State is just as depraved as any other killing of a human being.

Also, children who are abused are themselves already at risk of being murdered by their abuser(s), and the likelihood of them being killed in order for the abusers' identity to be protected would increase....IMHO, dramatically.

Overall, it's a crap idea. Banging the bastards up for the rest of their shitty lives is the best way to protect our children.

IMHO, YMMV.

23 Jan 13 - 05:14 AM (#3470282)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll

"No-one is Jim."
It having been established beyond doubt that the race/religion of the criminals in these cases is of no significance whatever, you now seem to have moved on to that of their victims - how bizarre can you get?
The desire to continue to make a race issue of these cases is to use the plight of the victims as a platform for racism.
The victims were chosen because they were there, not because they fell into any particular racial or cultural category.
A rare occasion when I find myself (almost) in agreement with Akeneton.
"abuse and prostitution of young teenagers is wrong regardless of ethnicity."
Jim Carroll

23 Jan 13 - 05:35 AM (#3470286)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

Good.
That is something we ALL agree on Jim.
I was only responding to Don who accused me of being dismissive about victims who were not white.

I do challenge your statement "It having been established beyond doubt that the race/religion of the criminals in these cases is of no significance whatever"

It has not.

23 Jan 13 - 05:59 AM (#3470292)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""I can't believe that anybody could be so evil as to continue attempting to make the abuse of young women a race issue

No-one is Jim.
I though we had finished.
Your "byees" are so funny.""

So says the King of the back trackers. Whenever his stance is blown out of the water he comes back with "Nobody is (saying), (doing), (thinking) that".

He then goes on to say "I knew that all along, and I was the first to say it".

It won't wash! You've made more swerves and U turns than a sidewinder on a hot day.

Truly Keith you make a corkscrew look like the shortest distance between two points.

Don T.

23 Jan 13 - 06:06 AM (#3470294)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

None of that is true Don.
I admitted to being wrong about E European trafficking of kids, but I have not backtracked on anything else.

It is you not remembering what I actually said.
It is you assuming I say things that I do not because you have got me wrong.

No swerves.
No U turns.

23 Jan 13 - 07:41 AM (#3470331)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Dave the Gnome

Death sentance, life imprisonment, chemical castration, whatever. They are all after the event things and will not prevent crimes from happening. No-one commits a crime in the belief that they will be caught so deterants are, by and large, irrelevent. Knowledge is the key. If we can determine who is likely to commit the crime and prevent it from happening, hopefully by education, then we will be on a real winner.

Cheers

DtG

23 Jan 13 - 07:53 AM (#3470336)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,999

"Death sentance, life imprisonment, chemical castration, whatever. They are all after the event things and will not prevent crimes from happening."

I agree. However, it will prevent THAT individual from committing that crime again. In Canada we have the stories of Donald Marshall, David Milgaard and Willie Nepoose that speak loudly against the death penalty. Their cases involved mismanagement of evidence, shoddy work from the investigating police and lies from various witnesses. However, when the proof is irrefutable, I see no need to spend fifty thousand dollars a year keeping murderers or child molesters alive. Better to spend that money on the victims or their families.

I used to believe strongly that the death penalty shouldn't be used. I don't feel that way anymore. But it's a moot point because Canada abolished the death penalty in 1963--and by law in 1967.

23 Jan 13 - 08:29 AM (#3470357)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Backwoodsman

Unfortunately, 999, our laws in the UK do not require 'irrefutable proof' for an accused person to be found guilty, they require that the proof be 'beyond reasonable doubt', and that has resulted in a number of cases where people have been found guilty, only for a miscarriage of justice to have been proved later. Many of the wrongly-convicted have been released and have returned to normal life.......sadly that isn't an option for the surprisingly large number who were wrongly executed.

Lock 'em up, that's what a civilised society does. Throwing the key away is an option for the most serious crimes..

23 Jan 13 - 08:50 AM (#3470371)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,999

Indeed, Backwoodsman. That is precisely why I mentioned the three men I did. Each was convicted of a capital crime and had we had a death penalty each would have been killed. Later evidence (and hard work from people who thought them not guilty of the crimes) resulted in their release because none of them had committed the crimes of which they'd been accused then convicted. I'm reminded of Paxton's song, "What Did You Learn in School Today?"

What did you learn in school today,
Dear little boy of mine?
What did you learn in school today,
Dear little boy of mine?
I learned that policemen are my friends,
I learned that justice never ends,
I learned that murderers die for their crimes
Even if we make a mistake sometimes,
That's what I learned in school today,
That's what I learned in school.

23 Jan 13 - 08:55 AM (#3470374)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Richard Bridge

Damn me, I always thought that that was Pete Seeger.

23 Jan 13 - 09:05 AM (#3470377)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

>>>>In fact the levels of child abuse are double that of the general population amongst native Americans - that you are always banging on about as the fount of all wisdom. So you'd end up hanging your own mates.<<<<<

Yup, you're right. The level of child abuse, sex trafficking, rapes, murders and physical abuse is RAMPANT in 'Native America'.....and if you look at all these links, you'll start to understand why.

Oh...by the way, I should just point out that around 88% (did you hear that?) EIGHTY EIGHT PERCENT of abuse against Native American Women is carried out by...wait for it....by NON-Native Men.

Why? Well, The Bastards know they can get away with on the Reservations, you see, for these crimes do not come under the investigation of your friendly local police department, because non-natives cannot be prosecuted for what happens on the Reservations...

Cool, huh?

Child abuse? Yup...did you know that in some States the Child Protection Schemes get paid almost DOUBLE for Native American Children taken into custody? And that all Native American children are deemed to be 'at risk', thus making it far easier to take them away of course...And when they're taken, they don't go to extended and willing families, nor even to Native Foster Homes, or Official Native Foster specially built buildings...they go to White Families or official Foster Homes run by the White Folks, whilst the brand new Native American ones remain empty or barely filled....Read the NPR reports...

Alcohol? Yup...Did you know that the many Lakota were arrested yet again a few months back for DARING to try to STOP The Corporate Alcohol Bastards from selling MILLIONS of can of beer to the Lakota, just off Pine Ridge, in a town called White Clay, a town of barely ANY people, but one where EVERY shop sells alcohol?

Did you know alcohol is banned in Pine Ridge, for the People are DESPERATELY trying to help themselves out of the mess the White Man got them into, through Boarding Schools, Sexual Abuse, Rape, Murder, Verbal Abuse, Bullying, Genocide and...of course, not forgetting the 'Good Ol' Silent, Secret Holocaust!

And did you know that when they were arrested they loaded them in a cattle/horse truck, because they'd locked their arms together, so they drove them off like animals, breaking EVERY health and safety rule going, had them standing up in a long line in a long truck....and of course, they, the police that is, also pepper-sprayed a 10 year old boy who was standing with his Mum...

Murder? YUP! Did you know that around 600 First Nations women in Canada have been murdered or are missing? And did you know that the police and the government are doing BUGGER ALL about it??? Did you know that the People are marching to demand Justice? Did you know that the Native American MEN are marching themselves to demand Justice????

And just in case you missed it, I'll repeat this.
'Did you know that around 88% of sexual abuse against Native American women is done by NON-Native Men?"

Did you know that Native Americans themselves are starting to stand up and say "ENOUGH!" to ALL the abuse, the drinking, the depression, the suicides, the government shit, the racism, the GENOCIDE?

Did you know all of this?

Well, you do now....

And if you don't believe me, take a look...................

NPR - Native American Foster Care Scandal (several pages and videos)
http://www.npr.org/2011/10/25/141672992/native-foster-care-lost-children-shattered-families

How abusers get away with targetting Native American Women
http://www.salon.com/2012/12/13/how_abusers_get_away_with_targeting_indian_women/

Call to Action on Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women in Canada
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWj0AHuJyEs

To The Indigenous Women - The 1491s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IInchmLs2wg

Men March for missing Aboriginal and Indigenous Women
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LuvUUY4e8M

Sexual Assault Epidemic Against Native American Women
http://www.care2.com/causes/sexual-assault-epidemic-against-native-americans-will-vawa-help.html

Stream - Al Jazeera - Justince Denied for Native American Women
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cwt3KJqiCSY

Sex Trafficking Rampant in Indian Country; Pimps on Prowl for Native Girls
http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/article/sex-trafficking-rampant-in-indian-country%3B-pimps-on-prowl-for-native-girls-72621

The Thick Dark Fog
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uxtVtBhceY

23 Jan 13 - 09:09 AM (#3470379)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Backwoodsman

Point taken, 999. I used to be one of the 'Hang 'em' brigade, and I'm still sometimes sufficiently outraged by an especially heinous crime to **almost** wish we still had the death penalty. But I regard executions of convicted people who are later found to be innocent far, far worse than the original offence for which they were wrongly found guilty. So I believe that the risk of an irreversible miscarriage of justice makes the death penalty a barbaric practice which no decent, civilised nation should embrace - to do so makes us no better than those we would put to death.

But that's a personal view, and I accept that others have a different opinion......that's fair enough.

23 Jan 13 - 09:14 AM (#3470382)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Backwoodsman

The Lakota craftsmen make some superb guitar and mandolin straps. Check them out:-
Lakota Leathers.Website

23 Jan 13 - 09:20 AM (#3470383)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

ANYONE who thinks they have the Right to do this to another human being has, in my opinion, NO RIGHT to live any longer...

Bang! Kaput! Gone!

Taken from here:
http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/article/sex-trafficking-rampant-in-indian-country%3B-pimps-on-prowl-for-native-girls-72621

>>>>>>>"...The life of a trafficking victim typically involves starvation, confinement, beatings, gang rape and forced drug use. They must also contend with addiction, broken bones, concussions, burns, vaginal and anal tears, sexually transmitted diseases (STDs), sterility, miscarriages, forced abortions and even contagious diseases like tuberculosis, hepatitis, malaria and pneumonia. Psychological damage includes mind-body separation, disassociated ego states, shame, grief, fear, distrust, hatred of men, self-hatred, suicide and suicidal thoughts, post-traumatic stress disorder, acute anxiety, depression, insomnia, physical hyperalertness and self-loathing. Some victims suffer from traumatic bonding, a form of coercive control in which the perpetrator instills fear as well as gratitude for being allowed to live.

Intertwined with sexual trafficking are sexual abuse, drug and alcohol abuse and poverty. In a law review, Sarah Deer, a Muscogee (Creek) Nation citizen and professor at the William Mitchell School of Law in St. Paul, Minnesota wrote that many women and girls are coerced into sex work—on and off reservations—by drug dealers to pay for their drugs.

This type of sexual violence targets Native women and girls due to the culture of silence in every community, the widespread poverty, and the legacy of appalling sexual violence committed by white men against Native women, says Deer....."<<<<<

23 Jan 13 - 09:24 AM (#3470385)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,999

Backwoodsman, you are a gentleman. Thank you.

23 Jan 13 - 09:28 AM (#3470388)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,999

Richard, Pete sung it on his "We Shall Overcome" album recorded at Carnegie Hall in 1963(?) but Tom wrote it.

23 Jan 13 - 09:59 AM (#3470399)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle

If your insights into child abuse are just stuff off the internet, rather than first hand, I expect you can find all sorts of things to support your point of view.

Truth is, it starts very close to home....in many cases. I suppose there are phantom abductions - but that's not the generality of the problem.

Fid you know that?

Do you actually care about anything , or is it all just an excuse to blow a gasket?

Bum turned green yet...?

And capital punishment (and corporal punishment) are shit ideas - the resort of shits.

Lets reverse it, and turn the supporters of capital punishment over to the perverts to fondle to their hearts content.

23 Jan 13 - 10:03 AM (#3470403)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,999

Bad day, Al?

23 Jan 13 - 10:27 AM (#3470410)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll

"I do challenge your statement"
Simple - produce your evidence to disprove all that which has been put up - you haven't even acknowledged it so far.
And you've still to explain why Jack Straw and all the rest of your "experts" were so wrong in warning that this was not a racist/cultural issue - they were your choice.
Jim Carroll

23 Jan 13 - 11:00 AM (#3470420)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

>>>Truth is, it starts very close to home....in many cases. I suppose there are phantom abductions - but that's not the generality of the problem.

Fid you know that?<<<<

Yes, I knew it. My own mother was sexually abused as a child, by her Uncle, Tom, her father's brother. Her parents would leave her with he and his wife, Elfrida, thinking she was safe with them, just down the road with family.

She told NO-ONE about it at all, until one day, she was watching a TV programme about Child Abusers. I walked in the room (we lived together, in Horrabridge, back then) and she said, very 'matter-of-factly' that she had been a victim of this herself. She was nearly 60 years old at the time. I stared at her and she then told me about Uncle Tom...I had always wondered why she appeared to hate him so much, getting so angry with her mother when she would ask her to pop something down the road to him. He was old by then, very old, but her hatred for him burned bright. I never liked him...rarely saw him.

She was always paranoid about my brother and I being left with anyone...Took me a long time to work a few things out, why I was never allowed to join things as a child..always kept close to her...She had many problems, but this affected her deeply. Her brothers knew nothing of this until I told them years later and were stunned...

Jo, my best friend's sister in law, abused by her grandfather as a child. Stunningly beautiful woman, drop-dead gorgeous, but she uses men, then throws them away, brutally so. Their family NEVER speak of what happened amongst each other..and her father gives her EVERYTHING she wants, out of guilt, for he did not believe her story, that his own father would do this. She's now in her 40s, still single, has a child though, around 3 now..the father is out of the picture. She still lives at home with her parents, who do everything for her, raise the child, indulge her every whim...She travels the world, exotic places, has everything she wants, for Daddy is VERY wealthy..Her parents are old now, but she still knows exactly how to pull their strings...The only thing she doesn't have is Peace, or Love...for that stopped way back when she was a child....

My daughter, whose teacher ended up in prison after rigging up various cameras around his classroom to take photos of his female pupils, up their skirts, down their blouses...He ended up on Suicide Watch, because he was so upset. He was the teacher my daughter trusted the most, because he was always so kind to her...One of the other teachers knew what he was doing, but he closed ranks..tried to get him to seek help instead of shouting from the rooftops....

>>>>Do you actually care about anything , or is it all just an excuse to blow a gasket?<<<<

I wish I DIDN'T fucking care in the depth I do, actually! I wish I could be like so many others and NOT GIVE A SHIT, but I care so fecking deeply that at times it keeps me awake! At times I get exhausted with typing, reading, finding out, informing! I get so down over Belo Monte, the Ecocide happening around our planet...and I want to scream and shout and yell for the WORLD, for we are literally Designing Our Own Deaths right now!

I CARE because I'm a Mother and I have two children of 26 and 18 who are going to be alive when The Shit Hits The Fan from OUR generation and those who have gone before, who were so fecking selfish, so fecking stupid, so fecking DISINTERESTED that they ALLOWED their planet to be raped and pillaged purely so they could enjoy a luxurious Life Of Stuff!!

I CARE because Native Americans come to my page to say Thank You, because it means so much to them to have people who believe in them, who don't see them in the way they have been portrayed for centuries! I CARE because many of them are REALLY HURTING, to their Souls!

I CARE because we have become so Fucked Up as a Species that we are now not only fucking up our own species on a MASSIVE scale, but we are fucking up every other species too!

There are people out there killing Giraffes just for FUN!!! There are people out there Big Game Hunting, purely so they can have their photo taken with the dead Giraffe (insert beautiful animal of your choice) and they take their CHILDREN trophy hunting too!

I CARE because today, even Sir David Attenborough has come out saying that we Humans are a Plague upon this planet!

You are angry with me because I whacked your backside over what you said on my FB page. That's your privilege, but don't make out that I don't fecking CARE because that truly pisses me off bigtime!

23 Jan 13 - 12:46 PM (#3470438)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie

Giraffes?

Naw, fuck 'em. You can't hold a candle for every creature. Something has to give and they will do as well as any. Saw lots when on safari last year but never thought to kill them. Thanks Lizzie, you have given me a good idea.

These crimes are an issue but just as bad would be politicians pandering to and trying to please the Lizzies of this world. The thought of such views being expressed in a country where with a bit of effort she could receive some education and be capable of being rational. . It is a stain on what we try to call society.

Oh, this just in. Bridge finds a labour politician who is too left wing for his tastes. The last time I used a solicitors for property purchase they handed my file to a conveyancer they employed to save money.

23 Jan 13 - 01:26 PM (#3470454)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST

Big Al (bet its not muscle) I was wrong we would agree on nothing.Re the rep brain reread yer last 2 posts.Your the fucking problem sometimes your black,sometimes white,left,right full of shight n spite.Gods sake evolve man.This is supposed to be a folk site full of artists and dreamers instead its been infected by petty ego diseased schemers.FXX em Lizzie Cornish whoever you are, ice cream or not.Your right girl (except for the kill the bastards bit).Peaceish

23 Jan 13 - 02:06 PM (#3470462)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle

I'm off to the crocodile pool, you and Lizzie can go shag a giraffe...

23 Jan 13 - 02:12 PM (#3470466)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST

That's the spirit,was worried for a sec you might take it bad.;0

23 Jan 13 - 02:20 PM (#3470469)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

Jim, this is why I believe BPs to be over-represented in this crime.

All the victims who went to their MPs, Straw and Cryer.
All abused by BPs.
All the victims of those convicted in the 17 cases in the Dando report.
95% BPs.
All the hundreds of Sikh and Hindu girls who went to their own support groups .
All abused by BPs.
Barnados.
They said that ethnic groups were "over-represented"
They said there was an issue of "ethnicity" in high profile (many victim) cases.
All the 400 seen by Wilmer.
All stated that BPs were their abusers.
All the victims seen by Bindel.
The same.
All the victims in the German report.
All the same.
The victims who recorded their statements.
All the same.
All the victims in the five court cases aginst BP gangs.
Whether the gang are in the current trial are convicted or not, the victims all accuse them.

23 Jan 13 - 03:47 PM (#3470498)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Richard Bridge

Keith "resistor colour code" of Hertford. Pathetic really. You'll be on about spermatic absorption and purity next.

"Musket" - also pathetic really. I said nothing at all about Austin Mitchell being too left wing. Listen, dimshit - a clerk or conveyancer working for a solicitor has someone to ask when he does not know. A "licensed conveyancer" has no available source of expertise.

23 Jan 13 - 05:17 PM (#3470522)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

I learned the resistor code in the 60s.
Why did a lawyer need to learn it?

You know that there really is an issue with BPs and this specific crime.
It helps nothing to deny it.
Let's have it in the open.
The far right will seize on any concealment and use it to their ends.

23 Jan 13 - 05:24 PM (#3470525)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Dave the Gnome

OMG. I thought I had seen it all. But I now admit that the woman is genius. How anyone can turn an argument about Muslim men abusing white girls into a rant about Native Americans, Ecology, Giraffes and a damn good measure of look how good I am is beyond me.

Well, one thing at least. Now the thread has had the kiss of death it deserved a hundred or so posts back and it will go the way of all such. Thanks in advance for closing it, team:-)

DtG

23 Jan 13 - 05:47 PM (#3470532)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

For your information, I was NOT the one who brought the subject of Native Americans up.

And for those who think what some evil humans are doing to Giraffes, you can look here..and then, your Tears of Mirth will turn to Tears of Despair!

The Giraffe Murderers!

And yes, if I were out there and saw this happening, I'd steal their rifles and aim straight at these bastards, take the whole LOT out!

I'm sorry, but this kind of scum are not fit to live upon Mother Earth!

It breaks my heart to see those photos, literally breaks my heart....and these bastards also have Facebook pages where they flaunt their horrifying photos, whilst taunting the people who constantly try to get their pages removed...

23 Jan 13 - 05:49 PM (#3470534)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

"And for those who think what some evil humans are doing to Giraffes"

should read....

"And for those who think what some evil humans are doing to Giraffes IS AMUSING...."

23 Jan 13 - 05:49 PM (#3470535)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Greg F.

You've got it all wrong, Dave.

As Liz would explain to you, most Native Americans are actually practising Muslims who have had to conceal their religious beliefs because of relentless FBI persecution.

Liz's mother's Uncle Tom, her daughter's teacher, and her best friend Jo's grandafther were all Muslim perverts lusting after white flesh.

If you paid more attention to FarceBook, this would be patently obvious to you.

23 Jan 13 - 05:53 PM (#3470537)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

What took you so long, Greg? Been poorly?

Tom was Welsh
Grandfather was Scottish
Teacher was English

Facebook is fecking wonderful, for those who have the knowledge of how to use it....

23 Jan 13 - 06:02 PM (#3470543)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie

The resistor code, same as the professional arrogance of High St Solicitors are things society has been at pains to stamp out. Stereotyping by one community on another is another challenge for society. More to the point it is pertinent to this thread.

Young giraffes living in isolation from the rest of the savanna community seeing younger female giraffes as fair game. They need executing and the results displaying on Facebook as a deterrent!

Now if only we knew someone willing to kill them. ..

23 Jan 13 - 06:44 PM (#3470562)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Greg F.

Tom was Welsh
Grandfather was Scottish
Teacher was English

Don't mean they weren't Muslim: nationality isn't a necessary determinant for religious affiliation, Liz.

But of course, you knew that. Since you're possessed of omniscience.

23 Jan 13 - 07:14 PM (#3470578)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""Jim, this is why I believe BPs to be over-represented in this crime.""

No Keith, you're twisting the question to answer what wasn't asked, because you have no answer to what was originally asked.

AS USUAL.

You were asked why you ignored the admonition by those you quoted as the source of your comments on Palkistani culture, ""NOT TO DRAW ANY CULTURAL OR RACIAL CONCLUSIONS FROM THEIR STATEMENTS"".

Once you ignored that admonition, whatever conclusions you drew were ipso facto, your very own conclusions, unsupported by your sources, so why are you consistently trying to make them responsible for your racially and culturally bigotted comment?

Answer the question this time, if you please.........IF YOU CAN!

Don T.

24 Jan 13 - 02:54 AM (#3470663)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

Don, Jim said "Simple - produce your evidence to disprove all that which has been put up" so I did.

He also said"And you've still to explain why Jack Straw and all the rest of your "experts" were so wrong in warning that this was not a racist/cultural issue" but that was wrong.
Jack Straw said it WAS a cultural issue, and all the cases I listed, hundreds or thousands of individuals, all reported abuse by BP gangs.

There is no point to this Don.
We have been over all the arguments many times.
You and Jim are never going to admit there is an issue.
I think you are the only ones, so let's give it up.

24 Jan 13 - 04:32 AM (#3470680)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll

"Jim, this is why I believe BPs to be over-represented in this crime."
All those are utter gibberish as evidence -- there is nothing to link them with either the culture or race of those concerned - that is why you have produced no verification whatever to make them such.
They are your opinions and nothing more - and ones I would expect from you and people like you
Straw and all the people you have used as 'witnesses' all warned against using these events to draw race/cultural conclusions, and the fact that you continue to ignore this indicates that, while you are fully aware of this, you are deliberately avoiding it for your own agenda - you are using the behaviour of a handful of criminals to smear whole racial and cultural groups
These crimes are in no way different from those of criminals in any other community and from any other ethnic background, making the overwhelming racial group in Britain committing them the indigenous one - you have been given the evidence for this and refuse to even acknowledge it, which underlines you despicable racist bigotry and your open dishonesty.
You have already fessed up to serially lying about the male Pakistani population - why not go the whole hog and either disprove the evidence, or accept it?
Surprise us and answer a question honestly.
Jim Carroll

24 Jan 13 - 04:37 AM (#3470681)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: MartinRyan

For fuck's fake, lads, give over!

Regards

24 Jan 13 - 04:58 AM (#3470685)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

Straw and all the people you have used as 'witnesses' all warned against using these events to draw race/cultural conclusions

Not true.
None on my list did.
Straw actually blamed it on aspects of culture.

You have already fessed up to serially lying about the male Pakistani population -
Not true.
I have neither lied nor "fessed up" to anything.

We have been over all this so many times.
We should give it up.
You and Don are never going to accept there is an issue, but you are on your own.

24 Jan 13 - 05:57 AM (#3470701)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll

Not true.
I have neither lied nor "fessed up" to anything.
"but it doesn't matter - you put it forward as "my opinion"
Blatant lie Jim.
Yes Jim.
"I believed it because those people were saying it, like the weather forecast."
You now appear to be lying about lying.
This is now embarrassing, you appear to have abandoned any form of self respect.
I entirely agree Martin - given over.
Jim Carroll

24 Jan 13 - 06:01 AM (#3470702)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

I do not lie Jim.
I do and did believe that all those people were right.
Why would anyone doubt.
But, like a weather forecast or a cancer diagnosis, you might believe it but it is not your opinion.
That requires some knowledge.

Unless you accuse me of lying again, I will leave you two in denial.

24 Jan 13 - 11:09 AM (#3470784)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

I've had enough of this crap.

Moderate minded people who oppose your racism and homophobia are being tarred with the same brush, and accused of harming this forum along with the likes of you.

I don't give a toss any more. You go ahead and turn this place into the kind of shithole you will feel comfortable living in.

But you won't find many wanting to join you.

Don T.

24 Jan 13 - 11:24 AM (#3470789)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: MartinRyan

DonT

Mmmmm.... The pot calling the kettle non-white? ;>)>

Reagrds

24 Jan 13 - 02:34 PM (#3470845)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

One thing people object to is personal abuse instead of discussion.
There is no racism or homophobia in my posts.
I oppose them too.
Why not just respond to what people post instead of demonising them?

24 Jan 13 - 03:58 PM (#3470872)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Steve Shaw

Keith, I've met many people who say "I'm not a racist, but..." and even one or two who say "I've got nothing against gays, but..." You are firmly in both categories I'm afraid. There are years of posts here that demonstrate it. You may never, in your view, have said anything "overtly" racist or homophobic. But you do have a serial and unhealthy habit of dominating discussions involving both topic areas, seemingly your main foci in life. And you do always seem to side pretty clearly with the kind of people who we all know are racist or homophobic. It's no good bleating that you're not and claiming that people don't respond to your posts. That's just sidetracking. Now, having said that, I'm giving over as well, before some bugger tells me to.

24 Jan 13 - 06:30 PM (#3470942)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""DonT

Mmmmm.... The pot calling the kettle non-white? ;>)>

Reagrds""

It's easy to prove that point Martin. All you have to do is find one single racist or homophobic comment from me and you're homw and dry.

When you fail, an apology would be nice.....but very unexpected!

Don T. (who is now out of this place).

24 Jan 13 - 06:37 PM (#3470948)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: MartinRyan

Don

At no stage did I suggest you held or expressed racist views.

Regards

24 Jan 13 - 08:27 PM (#3471001)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: akenaton

I think what Martin means, is that you are a personally abusive poster Don.

We all have different opinions, but some of us can behave here in a civil manner.
As Keith often says, address the issues without the name calling or abuse. You or I have no way of knowing what motivates other members to post here.

24 Jan 13 - 08:46 PM (#3471011)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Steve Shaw

It would be a good idea, akenaton, to speak for yourself and not for other posters. I have had many an issue with Don, but he is a direct, from-the-heart, honest poster with decent, humanitarian views. You may think he's abusive (he can be a bit knockabout at times, but who am I...), but that is too strong a term in my opinion. If you feel got at by the likes of Don, you should reflect on the fact that the views you are so wont to express under your pseudonym are regarded by many people here, me included, as extremely abusive toward the masses of people you choose to denigrate, in your case gay people. If you feel abused by Don, and you're right, then that's one person abused. In many of your posts, you abuse millions of perfectly decent people. Your offence is no less vile just because you don't know all their names.

24 Jan 13 - 08:56 PM (#3471017)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: akenaton

Don T.....I understand very what equality under the law means.

In the UK last week the govt announced that, as we were all in this financial mess together, child allowance to high earners should be cut.
The next day it was revealed that if these high earners payed more into their pension funds and brought their take home earnings under £50 thousand pounds per annum....they could continue to claim child benefit.
The law says that all citizens should be treated equally regarding benefit rights, but low earners require all of their take home earnings to live and are unable to manipulate the system as high earners do.

This is one example of "equality under the law"

Instead of wasting time and energy on the "marriage" rights of homosexuals, most of whom do not wish to be married in any case, perhaps we should be scrutinising the real inequalities which are becoming more and more obvious under the present system.

24 Jan 13 - 09:01 PM (#3471023)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: akenaton

Sorry, posted that on wrong thread.....perhaps a mod could please remove it.

Steve....get a grip.

25 Jan 13 - 02:53 AM (#3471085)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie

Never read a post of yours yet that wasn't on the wrong thread. Or planet for that matter. ..

25 Jan 13 - 03:01 AM (#3471086)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

Steve, I see where you are coming from, but I promise you I am no kind of bigot.
There have only been three such discussions, and I do not start them.

Someone posts something that I know to be wrong and easily disproved.
It was clear two years ago that BPs were over-represented in this, that there was plenty of evidence, and more would come rolling in.
It did, but still some had to deny it for non rational reasons.

Al had it right.
It is wrong and must be stopped, but there are likely to understandable causes and no reason to demonize a whole community.

Jim posted that "No Traveller" signs are common throughout Britain.
How could I resist?
McGrath had it right.
There are many issues of prejudice and discrimination to rail against, but the signs have gone.

There is absolutely no question that MSMs are at much greater risk of STIs, so I had fun with the deniers.

Another less clear cut case, that Israel is a terrorist state.

The only thing that spoils my fun is that, having no case, the other side starts shouting "racist" or "bigot" as if that is a defence.

Anyone who knows me knows that I am not what you think Steve.

25 Jan 13 - 03:09 AM (#3471087)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

I do acknowledge that enjoying these discussions is itself a character flaw.
Sorry.

25 Jan 13 - 04:03 AM (#3471093)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: MartinRyan

Keith

It is the fact that your smug, self-regarding view of what constitutes "discussion" is shared by some of your regular opponents that makes these discussions tiresome and etches away at the contribution Mudcat has made to music.

Regards

25 Jan 13 - 04:16 AM (#3471097)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: akenaton

I think it is important to be accurate in our discussions.
We are more than ever influenced by the media in our political and social views and this media influence often does not represent the real truth on important issues.
As a nation, we are being dumbed down by the media.....when was the last time you saw a proper serious play on TV.....anything remotely thought provoking requires a half hour trawl through the schedules.

The minority channel BBC 4 is about the only thing worth watching, but it is "no mans land" to most young people.

Popular culture is now a litany of myths.

25 Jan 13 - 04:24 AM (#3471099)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: akenaton

I remember Keith being roundly abused here for daring to suggest that unregulated immigration could turn out to be a mistake.
He was branded a racist for even making such a suggestion....now every political party has been forced to accept that what Keith was suggesting was true, yet I have seen none of those who did the branding issue an apology.

Myths can easily be presented as wisdom, if we are dumb enough to accept them.

25 Jan 13 - 04:27 AM (#3471102)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Musket

Keith, you are right on that.

I must admit to a perverse pleasure in being outraged by some of the, well, outrageous comments and try to reply in kind. I suppose that for many of us, back in the real world we have to be more diplomatic and nod appreciatively when faced with obnoxious views. As someone who investigates as a regulator these days, I have to be seen to be far more "understanding" than my gut instinct would have me behave. Nor indeed was I quite so diplomatic before my retirement as a chief executive...

No, you are right. It is a character flaw, but all the same, it is hugely cathartic...

When Akenaton posts, rather than be dismayed, I see it as an opportunity to highlight how some attitudes, usually bleating about what is wrong with society, show us that such attitudes are indeed themselves what is wrong with society...

Channel 4? Bugger off. Dave all the way................. (Oh, and Discovery, because Dave hasn't bought the rights to Wheeler Dealers yet!)

25 Jan 13 - 06:19 AM (#3471135)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Steve Shaw

I remember Keith being roundly abused here for daring to suggest that unregulated immigration could turn out to be a mistake.

Who can demonstrate that it has been a mistake? We weren't complaining when we could, at long last, get a decent Polish plumber or a Czech NHS dentist a few years back, and we don't moan about the fact that thousands of young women from the EU and beyond are doing the kind of work in our care homes for way under a living wage that we'd rather not do ourselves. The economic downturn that suddenly made immigrants look less attractive was nothing to do with them. And you don't moan about Spain allowing us to offload hundreds of thousands of our gin-swigging, elderly malcontents on to them, do you?

25 Jan 13 - 06:29 AM (#3471138)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""It is the fact that your smug, self-regarding view of what constitutes "discussion" is shared by some of your regular opponents that makes these discussions tiresome and etches away at the contribution Mudcat has made to music.

Regards""

I can't let that one pass. If you are only interested in thew music what are you doing down here.

The BS section exists to remove non music discourse from the music section, so you kind of expect to find little if any music down here.

So, how come you think you have the right to lecture other members and try to control their actions.

I make no secret of the fact that I find Akenaton's and Keith's attitudes disgusting in the extreme, but I don't ask for them to shut up. I don't have the right to do that, so I try my best to persuade them to take a more balanced path.

I would suggest that if you aren't happy with these discussions, don't join them. There's a mile of musical stuff for you above the line. I know that because, unlike some, I also spend time up there.

Don T.

25 Jan 13 - 06:41 AM (#3471141)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle

I don't like it when Jim and Keith call each other names. Its very near to abuse - rather than argument. And i like to think of both of them as my friends.

I know....hypocrisy. This from the man who told Lizzie to go and shag a giraffe. (don't give a bugger about the Guest - all this rambling bollocks about crocodiles and reptiles REALLY gets on my tits).

I do find Lizzie's all encompassing empathy for obscure corners of the world, in tandem with a tendency to shout at the persons she's actually having dialogue with, as though they're rats arses - well pretty hard to take.

25 Jan 13 - 06:46 AM (#3471145)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

Who can demonstrate that it has been a mistake?

No-one can Steve.
It is just an opinion, but is now accepted as a legitimate and mainstream view.
Labour now admits it was wrong to allow it to reach such proportions and that ordinary working folk were the victims of it.

25 Jan 13 - 07:30 AM (#3471157)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: The Sandman

I dislike any sort of bullying and abuse whether it is sexual or non sexual or internet abuse.
i do not care what religion or colour the abusers are.
whether they are jimmy savile[ who i believe was a so called christian] or a member of some other religion, be it catholic priest or muslim cleric.
i have met both don t and keith a, they both seem to me likeable people, so how about treating each other as you might if you were face to face, it achieves nothing in my opinion to resort to name calling

25 Jan 13 - 07:37 AM (#3471161)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

Yes.
I will be more respectful.
I actually have been making some effort already.

25 Jan 13 - 11:16 AM (#3471242)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Musket

I would make an effort but about to go to the airport to spend a week skiing. So, other than wondering whether this thread will still be there when I get back, you can all go shag Al's pet giraffe for all I care.

As to being respectful, well... sounds rather boring to me. If people won't be respectful to those they stereotype and look down on, why should I treat them with respect? Bad enough having to pretend to be sociable if you meet up with the buggers without offering false courtesy from the safety of a keyboard.

They come over here with their long necks and long eyelashes. Never integrate, you know! Always in their little enclaves in zoos. if they integrated into society, you'd give them time of day but they think blah blah blah ad nauseum.

25 Jan 13 - 12:26 PM (#3471287)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle

Don't pay attention when he's obviously piste.....

26 Jan 13 - 06:36 AM (#3471602)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: akenaton

Steve..."
Who can demonstrate that it has been a mistake? We weren't complaining when we could, at long last, get a decent Polish plumber or a Czech NHS dentist a few years back, and we don't moan about the fact that thousands of young women from the EU and beyond are doing the kind of work in our care homes for way under a living wage that we'd rather not do ourselves."

Oh yes we WERE! at the time I wrote several times about what the then labour govt said on unregulated immigration from Eastern Europe.

"To make this country more competitive in the global market place"

Code for cheap labour......At the time I was roundly abused as a racist in these pages.

27 Jan 13 - 06:01 AM (#3471952)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""Oh yes we WERE!""

There he goes again, thinking the world is following in his footsteps......or is that the Pharaoh using the Royal We?

Don T.

27 Jan 13 - 07:29 AM (#3471966)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle

Don

Ake is entitled to have a we, whenever the mood takes him.

This thread is all piss and wee. Piste and we...

There used to be this seaside postcard. I sent it one of my religious friends and his wife was traumatised.

Two young attractive girls at the seaside pass a young man wwho is wearing very tight swimming trunks.

First girl says, My! what a long pier!
Second girl says, Yes a nice smile as well....

27 Jan 13 - 08:32 AM (#3471980)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

An unusual judgement this week.
Not gang related, the girl consented, and the offender was only 18, but he groomed a 13 year old on face book and had sex with her.
He could have expected a custodial sentence but the judge let him go free because he did not know it was illegal, and because his Islamic school had taught him that females were as worthless as "a discarded lolipop."
http://www.rationalskepticism.org/news-politics/i-didn-t-know-that-sex-with-a-girl-of-13-was-illegal-t37318.html

27 Jan 13 - 08:35 AM (#3471982)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/news-politics/i-didn-t-know-that-sex-with-a-girl-of-13-was-illegal-t37318.html

27 Jan 13 - 09:19 AM (#3471997)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Backwoodsman

A perfect illustration of what a bunch of wazzocks the legal profession are. Isn't there something in UK law that says "Ignorance of the law is not a valid defence" or something of the sort?

27 Jan 13 - 09:56 AM (#3472008)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Backwoodsman

Always assuming that the linked story is 100% true, and not some highly-spun anti-Muslim distortion of what really happened.

27 Jan 13 - 10:14 AM (#3472021)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

Yes. None of the broadsheets ran it.
The judge is not reported as having taken those claims into account, only his immaturity.
It is of interest in that the defendant claims his schooling and upbringing did not prepare him for life in a liberal society.

27 Jan 13 - 03:02 PM (#3472127)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: The Sandman

but that is not correct, there are different sects of the muslim religion just as there are different christian denominations.
is it true that all muslim sects teach that all females are worthless. i very much doubt it.
as i understand it and i am not an expert, some muslim sects allocate the amount of wives to a husband on the husbands worth, that would seem to indicate that they are not worthless, but are a direct indicator of a mans material wealth or material worth

27 Jan 13 - 07:34 PM (#3472235)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: TheSnail

Curious as to why Keith gave a link to that rather strange blog instead of the original Daily Mail article that it got its quotes from.

Near the bottom of the article it says -

But he [the judge] said that Rashid knew what he was doing was wrong.

'It was made clear to you at the school you attended that having sexual relations with a woman before marriage was contrary to the precepts of Islam,' he said.

28 Jan 13 - 12:15 AM (#3472311)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jack the Sailor

How about we end this racist spew by banning/ignoring this thread?

28 Jan 13 - 03:36 AM (#3472330)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,bigAl Whittle

Why don't we end this racist spew
Jim says none of the above is trew
Ake's had a wee
Wee and spew
A good night out, from one point of view.

29 Jan 13 - 04:44 AM (#3472818)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

Court sees evidence provided to police nearly seven years ago.
There will be questions to be answered when this is over.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/jan/25/oxford-child-abuse-rape-trial

29 Jan 13 - 05:53 AM (#3472837)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll

You have once again prevented this thread from disappearing into the sewer of Mudcat history that it was headed for and richly deserves to end up in.
You have still not produced one single shred of evidence to prove that the people involved in these crimes are no more than a bunch of criminals no different from those of any other race, faith and culture committing identical crimes throughout Britain today - you have continued throughout to ignore all the evidence provided which proves the contrary.
This morning's Times carries the story of a young Asian lad in Central London butchered by a gang of around 15 sword-wielding thugs.
If this turns out to be yet another race crime garbage threads like this will have contributed to the death of this lad - well done for continuing to keep the flag flying.
Jim Carroll

29 Jan 13 - 06:03 AM (#3472842)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

They are no different Jim.
It is just that one demographic seems to predominate and, most disturbingly, for whatever reason, the police forces have ignored children's testimony and allowed the abuse to go on for years.

29 Jan 13 - 06:29 AM (#3472852)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle

Fifteen sword waving thugs....well what else would you expect from white working class Englishmen.

I bet their poorly educated racist brains had been inflamed by reading Keith's posts on mudcat.

When will our streets be safe for peace loving Native Americans, Romany gypsies amd IRA men to walk in peace.....I keep asking myself.

29 Jan 13 - 07:09 AM (#3472858)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,CS

"well what else would you expect from white working class Englishmen."

For what it's worth it was supposedly a gang 'turf war' style killing over drug sales, and the killers were a mixed group of black and white youths.

29 Jan 13 - 07:13 AM (#3472860)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll

"It is just that one demographic seems to predominate "
Repeating this without proof and ignoring the proof that you have been given that this is patently not the case makes it a continuing racist lie and puts you on the side of the sword-wielding thugs.
I'll leave you to continue to wallow in our own swill
Jim Carroll

29 Jan 13 - 08:53 AM (#3472902)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

It was not a racist killing.
The Independent, May 2012.
" In 18 child sexual exploitation trials since 1997 – in Derby, Leeds, Blackpool, Blackburn, Rotherham, Sheffield, Rochdale, Oldham and Birmingham – relating to the on-street grooming of girls aged 11 to 16 by two or more men, most of those convicted were of Pakistani heritage."

29 Jan 13 - 12:01 PM (#3473043)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll

And many, many thousands more of the exact same crime throughout Britain - count them
Jim Carroll

29 Jan 13 - 12:49 PM (#3473070)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle

Many thousands...... I know you take a dim view of us, but not all of us have got kids on the game.

29 Jan 13 - 04:48 PM (#3473200)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Brian May

I'm all for shutting this thread down (as the OP).

However, when the next lot occurs, I also reserve the right to bring it up . . . again. Sure as eggs are eggs, it's going to.

30 Jan 13 - 01:25 AM (#3473382)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie

Im sure everybody has the right to highlight the issue.

It's some of the conclusions I find frankly disturbing. .

30 Jan 13 - 02:55 AM (#3473390)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

What conclusion?

For myself, I joined the debate because people were denying there was an issue, and it was clear that there was an issue.

That is the only conclusion I draw.

Jim, there have not been "thousands more of the exact same crime throughout Britain"
There has not been one trial not counted by The Independent except those that have happened since, and they follow the exact same pattern.
You count them.

Brian, there were more arrests just yesterday.

30 Jan 13 - 03:08 AM (#3473391)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Richard Bridge

Strange Fruit.

30 Jan 13 - 04:06 AM (#3473397)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll

"Im sure everybody has the right to highlight the issue."
Yes the do - but not to use it as a platform to incite race/cultural hatred - this is, as the OP points out, only one of many.
"It's some of the conclusions I find frankly disturbing. ."
You can say that again... andf again, and again.
There seems an effort on the part of the same crusade here to turn this into another 'Muslim prejudice' thread, with about he same amount of evidence - none whatever.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2208292/Derby-Paedophile-gang-groomed-girls-young-13-giving-cuddly-toys-exchange-sex-jailed.html
Jim Carroll

30 Jan 13 - 04:16 AM (#3473402)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

Jim, from your case.
"The men did not know each other, and carried out their activities individually."

From you.
" but not to use it as a platform to incite race/cultural hatred "

Agree Jim, but no-one is.

30 Jan 13 - 05:49 AM (#3473424)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll

It has been proven beyond doubt that pimping, seduction and grooming is part and parcel of prostitution in Britain (underage or otherwise) - you have refused to respond.
You have been given an American survey which has described in detail exactly the same methods used world wide and by all cultures - you have refused to respond.
You have been given hard evidence that criminals from Muslim communities are a tiny minority in Britain - you have refused to respond.
You even made the crass statement that European gangs don't groom and pimp underage girls, which alone puts Muslim criminals very much in the minority for this crime - you refuse to acknowledge that fact.
You have opened yet another "should we be afraid of Muslims?" thread elsewhere - deliberately provocative by your own admission in being aimed at "lefty liberals" who oppose your racist views - you have posted one third of the messages to that thread - some of them in bunches of three.
This sickness has to stop - is there no-one here going to prevent this forum from being used as a continuing platform for incitement to race hatred?
Take your disgusting message elsewhere - I'm sure the BNP would welcome you with open arms.
Jim Carroll

30 Jan 13 - 05:53 AM (#3473425)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

None of that is true Jim.

30 Jan 13 - 06:46 AM (#3473433)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie

See?

All you do is try as many have also tried to put this debate to bed and the usual suspects take a deep breath and resume their contradiction disguised as debate.

Truth is, criminality is appealing to those who either wish to be criminals or are conditioned such as the odds are they will be so.

Religion or culture sits above such debate in theory but when scriptures allow for subjugation of women and seeing them as sub human, such as the Q'ran or Bible, we shouldn't be too surprised when impressionable young idiots use it to explain their wickedness.

Similar parallels can be seen in shooting abortion doctors and teaching creationism in Dumbfuckistan or UK churches seeing no wrong in not allowing women to apply for their senior posts. So called respected religious leaders looking down on people for being gay (or women, or reading from a different book of tales to them.)

And then in the spirit of diversity we look for any reason for wickedness other than the disgusting role models in so called Scripture.

People raped and tortured these children but brainwashing provided the lack of guilt.

Just thought I'd get that off my chest before this thread eventually does bugger off.

30 Jan 13 - 07:26 AM (#3473440)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: akenaton

If I remember correctly, the "Priest abuse" thread lasted much longer than this one. In that thread Jim and his "liberal" cronies pasted the blame full square on the Catholic Church and when i tried to make the point that the abuse was committed by individuals against mainly young boys between 12 and 16 years old, I was called a homophobe.

Jim and a few more here would like to see "religion" abolished, for purely political reasons.....they view it as a conservative organisation; the abuse being only a secondary consideration.

In this thread again, the criminal activity and its causes seem to "liberals" to be of secondary importance.....the primary issue is the agenda of protecting minorities, whatever the circumstances.

30 Jan 13 - 07:26 AM (#3473441)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

It should be a simple discussion about facts.
Sadly, those who do not have facts resort to smears and personal attack instead.

30 Jan 13 - 07:52 AM (#3473453)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Dave the Gnome

Jim, I am going to have just one more attempt to get a sensible answer here. I am absolutely sure that Keith is trying to point out the some cultures - British Pakistanis in this case - are more prone to commit certain crimes than others. Having spent a lot of time with the Irish and West Indian communities in Moss Side (Mainly in pubs!) I am convinced that the Irish were more likely to abuse alcohol while the West Indians used Cannabis a lot more. There was a distinct difference. BUT THAT WAS ONLY MY PERCEPTION AND I AM NOT TRYING TO SAY ANYTHING ABOUT EITHER CULTURE BECAUSE OF IT.

What Keith is saying, and I am sure he will correct me if I am wrong, is that there is a distinct bias towards pimping, seduction and grooming by members of the British Pakistani demographic than there is of, say, the British Polish demographic or any other class of ethnicity. Now, as to why this has been brought up is anyone's guess and only Keith can answer that. But nothing I have seen him say here indicates that he believes ALL British Pakistanis have a propensity for this type of crime. Simply that there is A HIGHER PROPORTION of them committing these crimes than there should be.

Now, please don't start quoting absolute numbers like your famous 'less than 200 cases' here. They are meaningless. Maybe either you or Keith could provide us with the facts and figures, that must be available, as to how many IC1 males commit these crimes compared to how many IC1 males there are and the proportion of IC4 males committing these crimes compared to the number of IC4 males there are. If anyone can say with certainty that 0.2% of IC1 males were convicted of grooming related offenses while only 0.1% of IC4 males were convicted of the same, or whatever then at least we will have something to work on.

Of course, why anyone would want to make those comparisons is another question but whether it is to show one section of a community in a bad light or whether it is to genuinely help make the most of scarce police resources, the figures will be about somewhere.

So, someone please, can you fill in the following table?

Ethnicity Total in this group Number convicted of sex crimes

I will start the table rolling...

IC1 White person
IC2 Mediterranean person
IC3 African/Caribbean person
IC4 Indian, Nepalese, Pakistani, Maldivian, Sri Lankan, Bangladeshi, or any other (South) Asian person
IC5 Chinese, Japanese, or South-East Asian person
IC6 Arabic, Egyptian or Maghreb person
IC0 Origin unknown

Anyone?

Cheers

DtG

30 Jan 13 - 08:14 AM (#3473460)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

Dave.
Now, as to why this has been brought up is anyone's guess and only Keith can answer that

Brian started this thread, and the 2011 thread was not initially about this. Someone (not me) raised it.

In both cases, I only contributed because it was clear to me there was an issue, but people were denying it.

One problem in answering your big question is that ethnicity has not always been recorded, but I have not seen any claims of there being an issue of ethnicity in sex crimes in general.

If we go by actual convictions for the specific crime of street grooming by gangs for exploitation of underage persons, there is a large over-representation of BPs.

30 Jan 13 - 08:46 AM (#3473463)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

Maybe you should rename this thread....

'Men and girls - again'

And go from there.........as in....

.

"Why the feck do ANY of our sex commit horrendous sexual crimes on babies, little children, young girls and women? And WHAT can we do to stop it?"

30 Jan 13 - 09:06 AM (#3473469)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Dave the Gnome

Sorry Keith - You are right of course. Brian did start this one - My bad! The other bits still stand though.

One problem in answering your big question is that ethnicity has not always been recorded, but I have not seen any claims of there being an issue of ethnicity in sex crimes in general.

If we go by actual convictions for the specific crime of street grooming by gangs for exploitation of underage persons, there is a large over-representation of BPs.

I am as sure as I can be that ethnicity WILL have been recorded by the legal system. It always is. If it is not I don't understand how you can say that any particular demographic section is over or under represented. How can you say 'there is a large over-representation of BPs' if you do not know the representation in other cultures. If you were to say 'there is a large over-reporting of these crimes when committed by BPs' I don't think anyone would argue with you. Which is it?

Is it over-reporting? Which I think we would all accept.

Or is it over-representation, which can only be proved by providing the figures I asked for?

Cheers

DtG

30 Jan 13 - 09:34 AM (#3473479)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Greg F.

Easy, Liz - all you have to do to stop it is post on FarceBook. Thought you'd know that.

30 Jan 13 - 09:35 AM (#3473480)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Dave the Gnome

...and Liz, don't tar all men with the same brush or assume that these crimes are exclusively male.

See this eye-opener. Although, as has been pointed out, we are not talking exclusively about paedophiles either. We are talking grooming, procurement, living off immoral earnings and all sorts of things associated with prostitution. All of which seem to have been female crimes as well!

Cheers

DtG

30 Jan 13 - 09:46 AM (#3473482)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Richard Bridge

Hey Lizzie. Women have sex drives too. Don't ask me how I know - you obviously don't want to know.

30 Jan 13 - 11:22 AM (#3473512)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""It should be a simple discussion about facts.
Sadly, those who do not have facts resort to smears and personal attack instead.""

Yes, we've noticed how often you resort to smears and personal attacks on Pakistanis(sorry, BPs to you), and worse!

""the primary issue is the agenda of protecting minorities, whatever the circumstances.""

Missed the point again Ake??

The primary purpose of your opponents (those mythical liberals you are so fond of hating) is to expose the racism, homophobia and general misanthropy of you and your (fortunately) small cadre of adherents, and incidentally to prevent this forum being regarded as a suitable home for your ilk.

Somebody suggested that a certain political party would welcome your kind and perhaps you too would be happier in that company.

Don't expect to see the challenge to your hatreds lessen any time soon on these pages.

Don T.

30 Jan 13 - 12:32 PM (#3473536)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll

Dave
"I am absolutely sure that Keith is trying to point out the some cultures - British Pakistanis in this case - are more prone to commit certain crimes than others."
There really is no need to make Keith's point for him – he has already made it abundantly clear himself.
"Don I do now " believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency" but only because of the testimony of all those knowledgeable people, and always acknowledging that only a tiny minority succumb."
No room for equivocation – his statement, his belief, and the driving force behind his crusade.
When challenged on this he has scurried behind a non-existent "expert" who, he claims, has inspired him to believe it HE HAS ENDLESSLY BEEN REQUESTED TO PRODUCE THOSE "EXPERTS" ALONG WITH THEIR QUOTE AND HAS TOTALLY FAILED TO DO SO. NO PUBLIC FIGURE WHO VALUED THEIR CAREER OR THEIR LIBERTY WOULD DARE MAKE SUCH A BLATENTLY INFLAMMATORY STATEMENT PUBLICLY – TO DO SO WOULD MEAN THE END OF ANY CAREER AND THEIR POSSIBLE PROCECUTION FOR INCITEMENT TO RACIAL HATRED .
In fact, all Keith's "experts" have said the opposite; that it would be dangerously irresponsible to draw any racial/cultural conclusions from the behaviour of these criminals – police, judges, politicians, social workers..... all involved in this problem.
The survey held last year made the point that there was far too little evidence to link these crimes with any particular racial/cultural group. Far from treating them as a racial/cultural issue, the North of England police stated that they failed to act on them because "they were consensual".
As Brian Creer pointed out regarding the Muslim youth who claimed he didn't realise what he had done was a crime, Keith carefully chose to select the public reaction to the case rather than what the judge actually said – that Muslim culture forbids sex before marriage.
"'It was made clear to you at the school you attended that having sexual relations with a woman before marriage was contrary to the precepts of Islam,' "
Far from these criminals obeying the dictates of their culture, they have stepped away from that culture in order to succumb to the "pressures of their testosterone" as Jack Straw put it.
This is not the first time Keith has doctored his cut-'n-pastes to make his point.
These are the crimes of a tiny minority of criminals from the British Muslim communities – they are not, as Keith (hopefully not you) claims distinctly biased "towards pimping, seduction and grooming by members of the British Pakistani demographic" – they are as old as "the oldest trade" and world-wide – if you believe otherwise, produce your evidence – Keith refuses to.
If my minority of less than 200 is not worth quoting, explain to me why the other 2,999,800 British Muslims, or 999,800 British Pakistanis are not indulging in underage sex and prostituting "white Girls" (does anybody else find the title of this thread as offensive as do?)
If we are to take Keith's long standing point as fact, where does that leave those of us who have had Pakistani/Asian neighbours – should we not turn our backs on them just in case their resistance to their "cultural implant" breaks down – are they the real "enemy within"?
Maybe all those brave young men who went out at night looking for "Pakis" to "bash" are to be praised for helping to clear make our streets safe for 'British womanhood to walk" rather than be vilified.
I am not joking here – if these arguments are to be taken seriously and these crimes are "culturally based then every British Pakistani, even every British Muslim, falls under suspicion of being a threat to underage girls – cultural degenerates in fact.
By the way; I find some of your own generalisations somewhat dubious, even downright offensive – I'm pleased you aren't "trying to say anything about either culture because of it" – would that others followed your example.
I suggest you fill in your own questionnaire as you are the one indulging in unresearched and unprovable generalities.
"and Liz, don't tar all men with the same brush"
Why on earth not – you appear to be quite happy to defend Keith's behaviour?
Jim Carroll
".....those mythical liberals you are so fond of hating is to expose the racism, homophobia and general misanthropy of you and your (fortunately) small cadre of adherents, and incidentally to prevent this forum being regarded as a suitable home for your ilk."
Amen to wot Don just said!

30 Jan 13 - 12:58 PM (#3473544)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Dave the Gnome

Jim - You have just gone off on the most ridiculous rant against what I beleive to be my valid points that I have ever seen. Far from justifying Keiths behaviour I am asking you or him to provide facts to back up your argumennts. You quite rightly point out that he has not but, then again, all you have done is launch an attack suggesting that unless I support you entirely I must be some sort of 'Paki basher'.

Your minority of 200 in 3,000,000 is not worth quoting BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT COMPARING IT WITH ANYTHING ELSE. How else can I put it. If you were to say the same figure for British White Males is 500 in 3,000,000 then you would have a point. But just repeating ad-nausium that 200 is a very small figure is pointless. It is avery small figure but 100 is less and 300 is more. What does it mean?

You suggest you fill in your own questionnaire as you are the one indulging in unresearched and unprovable generalities.

I don't want to, Jim. I am not interested as I believe that when a crime is committed it should be treated in the same way regardless of the ethnic background of the perpetrator or the victim. I am purposely NOT indulging in unresearched and unproveable generalities as too many people on here are already doing that.

I am begining to see that you are like the Socailist Worker salesman who called me 'Capitalist Scum and Tory Lackey' because I said I am not buying her paper because I don't support the cause. Or like the BNP worker who said I was a nigger lover becuase I didn't support his cause either. All noise and no substance.

Cheers

DtG

30 Jan 13 - 01:31 PM (#3473563)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

"...and Liz, don't tar all men with the same brush or assume that these crimes are exclusively male...."

I did not.

However, whether you like it or not, the vast majority of this particular sort of crime IS committed by those of *your* gender, not mine.

Throw whatever you want at me, verbally, but that's the way it is...and it's the way it WILL remain, unless The Men Of The World stand up together to stay "ENOUGH!", for no way will Women stop this on their own, nor should they have to.

And if you look back at other posts of mine, you will find that I have said that many men, the GOOD men, probably feel even more outraged than I do about this, because of the very fact it is their gender and because they have wives, daughter, sisters, mothers....

But hey, don't let me stop you from having a go at me, as ever...

Thank you....

Oh, and please understand that your 'schoolboy humour' in continually calling me 'Liz' despite you KNOWING it upsets me, is not 'humour' at all, but a form of bullying. It would see that you have been behaving in such a bullying way since Childhood. Perhaps it is time to change...

30 Jan 13 - 02:45 PM (#3473580)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Dave the Gnome

I did not.

I didn't say you did. I was warning against doing do.

the vast majority of this particular sort of crime IS committed by those of *your* gender, not mine.

At least that is a fact, Liz. Unlike some of the other tripe on here. But it doesn't mean that just 'the men of the world' should stand up does it? Do you think women are not capable of doing something without the support of us men?

you will find that I have said that many men, the GOOD men, probably feel even more outraged than I do about this

I suppose that means I am excluded from what I believe is the majority of good men then? I admit it. I was a serial hamster rapist, giraffe strangler, Indian buggerer and farter in lifts. Although I must say I have changed my ways and become a model 1950s Father, husband, churchgoer, cottage painter and I would say lover but we don't mention things like that. That is entirely due to your opinion of me and various facebook campaigns.

I never have had a 'go' at you. Your opinions; your style. your complete disregard for other peoples feelings and your holier than thou attitude, Yes. You? No - I don't know you. Probably never will. Don't really want to. If I ever did have a go at you personaly you would know about it because it would be a damn site more than calling Liz.

Cheers

DtG

30 Jan 13 - 03:15 PM (#3473589)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll

"BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT COMPARING IT WITH ANYTHING ELSE."
Yes I am Dave - I have compared it with identical crimes common to all races and cultures in Britain today and throughout the world. I have provided links to those crimes and have provided an extract from and a link to a study on prostitution which describes exactly the same techniques of grooming, seduction and pimping as have been described in the cases Keith is using. There is no evidence whatever to suggest that these cases are exclusively or even predominantly Muslim, yet this has been the argument throughout these squalid threads.
"I am asking you or him to provide facts to back up your arguments"
I have shown you mine - Keith has consistently ignored all requests to provide any evidence to his claims or to refute provided evidence proving the contrary.
"I must be some sort of 'Paki basher'"
Please don't you start distorting what I have said - I've had a bellyfull of that with virtually ALL my arguments with Keith.
If you genuinely believe that was what I was implying, I apologise unreservedly - I neither said it nor do I believe it.
I do believe that suggesting that communities of 3,000,000 or 1,000,000 (depending on whether we are talking about British Muslims or Pakistanis) are culturally degenerate facilitates acts like 'Paki bashing' and other racist behaviour, but that wasn't my point. I used it (probably badly) to frame my question - 'how do you handle a degenerate culture of such proportions in your midst?'
I received no answer from Keith and am apparently not going to get one from you.
If you are you not "indulging in unresearched and unproveable generalities" why are you defending Keith's doing so?
You have had the facts as far as I see them; feel free to challenge them, correct them, even ignore them if that's what turns you on - but please do not claim that you haven't been given them - they're here and they are on the 'Muslim Prejudice' site in quantities large enough to choke a donkey.
'you are like the Socialist Worker salesman....."
I no longer hold any brief for any particular political party or organisation, but I am becoming more and more intrigued by comments like this - is it really the left (or lefty liberals, to quote Keith) who find racism, the persecution of cultural minorities or state terrorism repulsive - maybe I've been taking the wrong newspaper!
By the way; towards the end of the Muslim Prejudice thread I was treated to a (what's the collective term for PM) of PMs from Keith which made his own public postings appear liberal/lefty - must check to see if I deleted or archived them.
Jim Carroll

30 Jan 13 - 03:25 PM (#3473594)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie

Liz Liz Liz Liz. Being a male, I of course take great pleasure in bullying zzzz

Let's all call her Liz just to make her feel important eh? Makes a change from "what's the dozy cow waffling on about now?

I take it male includes Myra Hindley, Rose West and the "Madams" running front of house in knocking shops.

Not often that I feel offended but Liz's outrageous misogynistic stereotyping is frankly disgusting.

30 Jan 13 - 04:37 PM (#3473620)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

Jim and Don, not being a racist I do not make racist posts.
That is made up by you.
You do it because I disagree with you and you have no other reply.
Jim, what you say about my PMs is a calculated lie.
I have copies if you do not.

Dave, I do not have anything new.
The Independent referred to 18 court cases resulting in convictions.
There is the current Oxford case where victims have identified BPs as their abusers.
There are all those BPs arrested under police Operation Ribbon who are similarly accused.

All the victims who went to their MPs, Straw and Cryer.
All abused by BPs.
All the victims of those convicted in the 17 cases in the Dando report.
95% BPs.
All the hundreds of Sikh and Hindu girls who went to their own support groups .
All abused by BPs.
Barnados.
They said that ethnic groups were "over-represented"
They said there was an issue of "ethnicity" in high profile (many victim) cases.
All the 400 seen by Wilmer.
All stated that BPs were their abusers.
All the victims seen by Bindel.
The same.
All the victims in the German report.
All the same.
The victims who recorded their statements.
All the same.
The various serving and retired police officers who say there is a specific problem with BPs.

That is all I have to go on.

30 Jan 13 - 04:49 PM (#3473624)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Greg F.

I was under the impression she [ Liz ]left the site last year vowing NEVER to return.

No, you misunderstood ( or misunderestimated, in the language of George the Second ).

She vowed to leave reality, and to never look back.

30 Jan 13 - 04:54 PM (#3473626)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

Was this the pm you meant Jim?

To Title Date Delete
Jim Carroll Good Luck. 9 Jul 2011 07:41 AM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Message:
I was sorry you missed the end of the thread.
I know it was time pressure and not any lack of killer replies.
I hope your Summer School goes well.
Here's to the next time.
keith.

30 Jan 13 - 04:57 PM (#3473630)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Lizzie Cornish 1

As I said, Musket, whether you like it or not, the fact is that the vast majority of folks committing these crimes are men. Please also see my earlier comment where I said that many GOOD men will be feeling even angrier than me about this subject.

>>>"Liz Liz Liz Liz. Being a male, I of course take great pleasure in bullying zzzz"<<<<

No, that is purely because you are a Prat, not because you are a male.
And no, you do not have my permission to call me 'Liz', but yes, I'm sure you will continue to do so, and yes, this proves to me that you too are a bullying prat just like the other person a few posts back. Carry on, for you show yourselves up, not me.

With regards to the earlier remark from someone else, I stated that women can NOT turn this around on their own. I did NOT state that men should be the ONLY ones to change this.

Women can do many things, but until there are far more women in power, and let's face it that AIN'T going to happen soon in the male-dominated, religious-nutcases countries, nothing much will change for them, UNLESS, all together now, UNLESS The Men of the World come together to demand change.

30 Jan 13 - 05:30 PM (#3473647)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

""Don, A mutilate friend showed me a poster or flyer of you playing at a gig in support of such a party some time back, so why the sudden change of heart as in your defensive comment ?""

And if you, anonymous troublemaker, had three working brain cells, you would have spotted the photoshopped fakery of that image stolen from an original which I can easily produce, should anybody who matters ask to see it. The fake was so obvious, that only a complete twerp would attempt to use it to score points.

By the way, give my best wishes to your friend. I hope the mutilatiopn soon heals.

Don T.

30 Jan 13 - 05:31 PM (#3473648)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T

Darn!.......I hope the mutilation soon heals.

DT

30 Jan 13 - 05:35 PM (#3473649)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Dave the Gnome

Thanks, Jim. Sorry I missed the post where you provided the statistics. I am not going to dig back through all the crap to find the gems so I am happy to take your word that you did. However, you go on to say

There is no evidence whatever to suggest that these cases are exclusively or even predominantly Muslim, yet this has been the argument throughout these squalid threads.

That is nothing like what I am saying, regardless of what the other arguments are. I am just as appalled as you if this is indeed the argument but, no matter how I look at it, I cannot turn the words round to mean that. They are NOT exclusively or even predominately Muslim. What we are seeing is an over-reporting of these crimes by members of that culture. I am trying to get proof that it IS just over reporting and as you have 'compared it with identical crimes common to all races and cultures in Britain today and throughout the world' I would be very interested to see that comparison.

Sorry to keep at it but I am moving to Yorkshire shortly and I need to train in my terrier type attributes... We know that there have been less than 200 convictions amongst the 3,000,000 Moslems in this country. How many convictions have there been in the rest of the country? If anyone can answer that then I think we can finally answer the question as to whether these crimes are higher in one section of the community than another. If so, what can be done about it.

I do apologise for probably taking your comment likening anyone taking an opposite stance to yours a 'Paki Basher' the wrong way. I am still trying to understand what you did mean but I assume that offence was not intended. I think you must have just had a rant and at that point anything can come out!

Talking of rants...

Liz, I stated that women can NOT turn this around on their own.

Why on earth not? Surely there is nothing a man can do that a woman cannot? That is the kind of attitude that can set equality back decades. What's next? White's cannot sing the blues? Men cannot be midwives? Blacks should stick to picking cotton and singing dem ol' minstrel songs?

Thank heavens there are enough women who are strong enough to realise that they don't need us and it is about time they were given their turn in power!

Cheers

DtG

30 Jan 13 - 05:39 PM (#3473652)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Dave the Gnome

Oh - I should have added to 'given their turn in power', and given us poor men a rest...

:D

30 Jan 13 - 07:36 PM (#3473698)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle

Keith not sure the BP abbreviation is very helpful.

Jim

A few years back I was supply teaching in Nottingham, and this little guy turned up - also a supply teacher. The week before he had been teaching in Riyadh - not in the country of Pakistan, but rather in the country of a well known and trusted trading partner.

Anyway the subject was St Stephen, St Paul and stonings. This little fat feller explained to his class, what happened when someone was stoned. He had seen it happen to an adulteress the week before in Riyadh - so it was all quiye fresh in his mind - as you can imagine.

Needless to say there were complaints from kids and parents - the little fat teaceh was ne'er seen again fro that day on.

I think theres too much suppression of debate on the subject.

Poem for Lizzie

Lizzie, Liz
What is, is
To be or not to be
Alan or Al
Its still me.

By the way I have no recollection of being a bum slapper or slappee on Faceboock.

31 Jan 13 - 01:52 AM (#3473770)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

Al I have nothing else to contribute but just in case, can you suggest an acceptable abbreviation?

Dave, of course Jim has not produced any statistics.
They are not available.
Back in 2011 there were some high powered investigations but none were able to to give a conclusive answer to your question.

There are no statistics on crime and ethnicity.
Ask Jim where his figure of 200 comes from and what crime it relates to.

31 Jan 13 - 01:58 AM (#3473773)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie

Bum slapper? That one passed me by Al. Is it in the Carry On tradition or am I being naive again? On a serious note as you mention your time in Nottinghamshire I noticed on ghe news a Muslim family in Bingham (about as posh as you can get in East Midlands) have left to a safe address. The latest was a 13 year old tying a pig carcass to a cross and putting it in their front garden. Nice.

Mind you I must be naive. Never mind knew there was this movement called women nor indeed their need to have men to help them achieve some aims or other.

I suppose that's the problem when you try to promote equality, you don't manage to make special cases. I must try to improve. We can't have Liz passing accurate judgement on me can we?

31 Jan 13 - 03:18 AM (#3473785)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

Guardian September 2012.
This crime does have one very significant factor that has left me feeling deeply ashamed. The brutality and horror of these acts have nothing to do with me; they are as far removed from my life as the next person's. Yet I somehow feel responsible when I look at the names or faces of the perpetrators.

Why? Because a disproportionate number of them are British Pakistani – just like me. We speak the same language, have the same culture and home life and were probably raised with similar values. Yet somewhere along the way, something went very wrong.

This very thought ran through my head when I met two men in Sheffield who claimed to know gangs who groomed girls. They spoke casually about the kudos, easy sex and money that follows the gross exploitation of young girls. It was shocking and nauseating.

It's important to stress at this juncture that the vast majority of sexual crimes against children in the UK are committed by white men and that this type of grooming is only a small percentage of those crimes. Of the 1.2 million Pakistanis in Britain only a tiny minority has any connection with such deplorable acts of sexual violence. I'm writing this carefully because I want it to be read carefully. These men may be British-Pakistani but that does not mean that this is a crime specific to British-Pakistani men.

It was heartening to meet some young Pakistani men in Keighley who felt the same way as I did. They were keen that I make it clear that they, along with the vast majority of British Pakistanis, utterly condemned the evil acts being perpetrated against young girls. "This is not what we are," one told me. "Our values as British and Muslim people condemn this altogether."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/sep/30/abuse-children-asian-communities

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

31 Jan 13 - 04:13 AM (#3473799)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle

Keith the day you have nothing more to contribute....well I'll be very sorry.

Why abbreviate..... I think common sense tells you they are not one big homogenous group - they encompass all kinds of people.

31 Jan 13 - 04:16 AM (#3473800)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Richard Bridge

Which accordingly Keith undermines your plainly racist agenda - the one in which you and a few others repeatedly draw attention to crimes committed or alleged to be committed by British Pakistanis - against "white girls" (spot the dogwhistle, it's quite loud) so as to imply that that is a trait of British Pakistanis or even all Muslims, or all from the Indian subcontinent.

31 Jan 13 - 04:34 AM (#3473811)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

That is a nasty lie against me Richard.
I always acknowledged that only "a tiny minority" were involved.
I was the first on the first thread to point out that the victims were not all white (or sluts!).

All I ever claimed was that a disproportionate number of offenders were British Pakistanis.
The debate only dragged on because Jim and Don T kept denying it and saying it was racist to even suggest that.

This reporter is no racist.
She is a British Pakistani investigative journalist who has invested a large proportion of her whole career investigating this crime.
There are no stats. but she knows.

I spoke nothing but the truth.
A truth that was obvious to anyone not blinded by stupid political dogma, and all the vile abuse Jim has heaped on me these last two years was completely undeserved.

31 Jan 13 - 04:59 AM (#3473814)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll

`"not being a racist I do not make racist posts."
To make a statement like:
"Don I do now " believe that all male Pakistani Muslims have a culturally implanted tendency" but only because of the testimony of all those knowledgeable people, and always acknowledging that only a tiny minority succumb."
is racist, pure (if that's the word) and simple
Not only did you write it, but it is a concept invented by you. It is crude racism at its worst, racist invective aimed at an entire ethnic community, racially inflammatory and designed to generate hatred and fear. As far as I am concerned it is equivalent to pouring petrol through the letterbox of every Pakistani home in Britain.
The claim that you only said it only because somebody else told you it is true is moronic and does not in any way make you any less a racist, but the fact that you have refused to supply one single quote that comes anywhere near that horrific suggestion makes it your invention and yours alone.
Have the courage to stand by you
If there is one person here can show that such a smear on an entire ethnic community is not racist, please do
Am not sure of the point of your cut-'n-paste, which rather makes my point for me, are we to assume that the Muslim quoted managed to resist his "cultural implant"?
And no – I don't mean that PM – you are being as selective with your selection as you are about all your "evidence". I was referring to the dozen rants about Muslim culture, especially the one which ended "culture is all".
Am off to the other side of the country for what I trust will be a pleasant few days of song and music; will look them up when I get back.
Jim Carroll
PS I did enjoy that flag waving rant from our mysterious guest – now where have I encountered that writing style before I wonder?

31 Jan 13 - 05:27 AM (#3473830)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

Jim, that was the only pm I sent you during or soon after that thread.
You must be thinking of someone else.

How can it be racist to believe what people of a community say about their own community.
They did attribute the behaviour to aspects of culture, misogyny, unhappy arranged marriages, lack of any courtship, etc.

Anyway, as I said, I did not and do not care about why they do it.
I only stated what I believed because Don asked me.

"Because a disproportionate number of them are British Pakistani – just like me."

So, that's cleared up then.
Good.
Have a good trip Jim.

31 Jan 13 - 05:42 AM (#3473838)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll

No Keith - there was a dozen of them - I even contacted the administrator to find out if I could stop you posting them - you're lying again.
"I only stated what I believed because Don asked me."
Oh - for ***** sake it was because Jack Straw told you it was true last time - make up your mind
Doesn't matter anyway - you said it, take responsibility for it.
"Because a disproportionate number of them are British Pakistani"
Wonder if he carried out a national survey and forgor to post the results
Desperately racist to the last eh?
Jim Carroll

31 Jan 13 - 05:56 AM (#3473850)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

Jim, that was the first pm I ever sent you.
I sent the next on 22nd November, 4 months later.
Was that the one?
Shall I post it for all to see?

31 Jan 13 - 06:00 AM (#3473851)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jim Carroll

Let's be clear about this
These people are criminals; they are tried by the courts as criminals and those trying them have made it clear that there are no racial or cultural implications in their criminality.
They are tried by the press as Muslims, otr at best, as Muslim criminals - that is where most of us get our information about these crimes, including members of the ethnic communities. You have to dig under all the shit to find the real facts
You have consistently accused these communities of being culturally depraved with its members having to resist "cultural implants" (a summing up of exactly what you have said throughout)
Anybody making such statements are obliged to provide proof - you have provided none, neither has the sewer press, most of you claims echo sewer press vomit.
Produce proof and have the bottle to stand by what you say.
Jim Carroll

31 Jan 13 - 06:30 AM (#3473862)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Keith A of Hertford

There is no proof as to why they do it.
I tend to believe that all those folk were on to something, but I have no opinion.
I have been telling you that for 2 years.
It is not "exactly what you have said throughout"

What I said throughout was that there was an over-representation.
That the numbers are disproportionate.
They are.

31 Jan 13 - 06:36 AM (#3473864)
Subject: RE: BS: Muslim men and white girls - again
From: Jeri

Oh, GET A ROOM!