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02 Feb 13 - 02:00 PM (#3474917) Subject: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: GUEST I am looking for British songs and tunes from all ages which reflect ant-monarchist sentiments. Thanks Andrew |
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02 Feb 13 - 02:06 PM (#3474919) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: Taconicus Look for Scottish songs; you'll find many more. Myriads. |
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02 Feb 13 - 02:14 PM (#3474921) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: Steve Gardham And hundreds of English, Scottish, Irish on the Bodleian Broadside Ballads site. There are of course lots of pro-monarchist as well. |
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02 Feb 13 - 03:24 PM (#3474946) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle I've written a few https://soundcloud.com/#denise_whittle/well-done-liz I seem to remember Leon Rosselson wrote one about The Queen - it was in Songsmith magazine - nice words. |
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02 Feb 13 - 03:42 PM (#3474951) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: Leadfingers Leon Rosselsson's 'Procreation' was a nice dig at more than one 'Royal Family' ! Procreation , procreation ,there's nothing so Royal as procreation Traditionally we spend our time Perpetuating the Royal Line |
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02 Feb 13 - 06:08 PM (#3475002) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: GUEST,Ebor_Fiddler (Well-known pedant) Yes, but it's hardly a Folk Song is it? However good it does its job, it's a modern song and we nkow who wrote it. Folk songs are "Wee Wee German Laidie" and its like, transmitted through tradition. |
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02 Feb 13 - 06:09 PM (#3475004) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: GUEST,Ebor_Fiddler (Well-known pedant) Or even "Lairdie"! |
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02 Feb 13 - 06:54 PM (#3475023) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: Allan Conn Mind not that the Wee Wee German Lairdie ia an anti-monarchist song. There are plenty of Scottish folk songs supporting one House or the other but as far as older songs go I can't imagine there are that many which are anti-monrachist! |
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03 Feb 13 - 06:02 AM (#3475176) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: GUEST,Fred McCormick Sadly enough, there's not all that many of them around. Here's one however which ought to be in wider circulation. I should warn folks, it's been somewhat altered and trimmed by me but, if I remember right, you can find the original in Pepys' Ballads. It goes to the tune of Greensleeves, BTW. Epithalamium; Or a Wedding Song On the Supposed Marriage of the Supposed Prince of Wales, to the supposed Grandchild of the French King, the Supposed Son Of Louis the 13th, as it was with the consent of his holiness, (or rather his wickedness), the Pope of Rome, Solemnized From Paris to Purgatory the third of the Last Greek Calends 1689. To the Tune of, Lulla by baby, &c. Licensed and Entered According to Order. 1. Pray rub up your Ears, and I'll tell you a thing, The wonder of Subjects, the Wit of a King: Then pray give attention to what I do Sing, Ch; Sing tantara rara rara Boys hey, Boys hey, sing tantara rara rara Boys hey 2. The Young Prince of Wales he went over to France, To fiddle and fence, and learn to Dance; And there he did meet with a Mistress by chance Ch: 3. He spy'd from his Cradle a Princess, that Cry'd, The Dauphin's young Daughter with Swadling Clouts ty'd: And fell in a Passion, as if he would have dy'd. Ch: 4. The Prince to a minute, was half a year old; The Princess a quarter, but bucksome and bold, And both they were willing their Loves to unfold. Ch: 5. Young Innocent mumbl'd, and fumbl'd the Wench; And she sweetly answered, by Smiling, in French: But she with her Rattle his passion did quench. Ch: 6. At last they agreed, and to marriage they went: The day being appointed, mistakes to prevent; And the Turk's Great Defender he gave his Consent. Ch: 7. The Priest he made halt, and joined their Hands; And thus he secur'd them, in Wedlock Bands, Yet neither had Kingdom, nor People, nor Lands. Ch: 8. When both were a Bed, and the Candle put out, And the Bride-groom drew nearer he Shit in his Clout, And the Wedding did end with a Stink and a Rout. Ch: |
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03 Feb 13 - 06:05 AM (#3475178) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: GUEST,Fred McCormick Here's another one, written by Vic Gammon and lifted from Digital Tradition by me. Kings and Queens of England Now Charles II had eleven bastard children And George III went mad And Edward VII they thought was Jack the Ripper But Richard III weren't as bad as Shakespeare thought he was Victoria lay back and thought of England Charles I lost his head Well the best thing about those Kings and Queens of England Is that most of them are dead. Singing Rule Britannia Britannia waives the rules Kings, Queens, Jacks and Knaves and tyrants Cheats and fools. Now William III was a protestant and Dutchman And James I was a Scot And George I spoke nothing else but German What a mixed-up, inter-bred lot. And William I was a grasping Norman bastard Believe me, it's no lie. Well there hasn't been an English king of England Since Harold got one in the eye. Chorus Now she was a well-heeled blue-blood Cinderella, Him Prince Charming with big ears, But he has a thing going with the ugly sister So it ended all in tears. So arise now ye ghosts of old Oliver Cromwell, Brave Harrison and Tom Paine. Won't you rid our land of this monstrous carbuncle And bring sunshine after the reign. Chorus Note: "Monstrous carbuncle" was Prince Charles' infamous description of some piece of modern architecture (design for the Tate Gallery extension??) |
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03 Feb 13 - 11:12 AM (#3475277) Subject: Lyr Add: CORONATION CORONACH (Thurso Berwick) From: akenaton With best wishes... back to C index CORONATION CORONACH—Scottish Breakaway (Words: Thurso Berwick)
O, Scotland hesna got a King, |
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03 Feb 13 - 11:22 AM (#3475284) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: Leadfingers Now sit back and wait ---Some prat will say "They CANT be folk songs as they are not part of some mystical semi religious oral Tradition ! And to make it even worse , they are entertaining ! Oh Horrors ! |
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03 Feb 13 - 12:40 PM (#3475299) Subject: Lyr Add: THE WEE MAGIC STANE (John McEvoy) From: Owen Woodson "mystical semi religious oral Tradition"? Oh I dunno. As far as having mystical properties is concerned the Stone of Scone fitted the bill perfectly. Until the lousy rotten cattle raiding, haggis thumping, whisky drinking, claymore wielding Scots (only kidding) had the brass neck (only kidding again) to steal it back from the hated imperious English ruling class, who screwed the populations of 3/4 of the world's surface for every red cent they could get - and then had the sheer damned gall to ram Rule Britannia down everybody's necks. And that time I wasn't kidding. THE WEE MAGIC STANE. John McEvoy Oh the Dean o' Westminster wis a powerful man, He held a' the strings o' the state in his hand. But with a' this great business it flustered him nane, Till some rogues ran away wi' his wee ma-gic stane." cho: Wi' a too-ra-li-oor-a-li-oor-a-li-ay." Noo the stane had great pow'rs that could dae such a thing And withoot it, it seemed, we'd be wantin' a king, So he called in the polis and gave this decree-- "Go an' hunt oot the Stane and return it tae me." So the polis went beetlin' up tae the North They huntit the Clyde and they huntit' the Forth [ie, west & east] But the wild folk up yonder jist kiddit them a' Fur they didnae believe it wis magic at a'. Noo the Provost o' Glesga, Sir Victor by name, Was awfy pit oot when he heard o' the Stane So he offered the statues that staun in the Square [made of stone] That the high churches' masons might mak a few mair. When the Dean o' Westminster wi' this was acquaint, He sent for Sir Victor and made him a saint, "Now it's no use you sending your statues down heah" [English accent] Said the Dean, "But you've given me a jolly good ideah." So he quarried a stane o' the very same stuff An' he dressed it a' up till it looked like enough Then he sent for the Press and announced that the Stane Had been found and returned to Westminster again. When the reivers found oot what Westminster had done, [thieves] They went aboot diggin' up stanes by the ton And fur each wan they feenished they entered the claim That THIS was the true and original stane. Noo the cream o' the joke still remains tae be tellt, Fur the bloke that was turnin' them aff on the belt At the peak o' production was so sorely pressed That the real yin got bunged in alang wi' the rest. So if ever ye come on a stane wi' a ring Jist sit yersel' doon and appoint yersel King Fur there's nane wud be able to challenge yir claim That ye'd croont yersel King on the Destiny Stane. |
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03 Feb 13 - 02:21 PM (#3475340) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: GUEST,Ebor_Fiddler Tony Airmstrong Hyphenated Jones He's awfu' wee an' pawkie Ef he hadnae ben the Royal Groom He'd hae ben the royal jockie! |
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03 Feb 13 - 02:27 PM (#3475343) Subject: Lyr Add: CAM YE O'ER FRAE FRANCE From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle And of course:- CAM YE O'ER FRAE FRANCE Cam ye o'er frae France? Cam ye down by Lunnon? Saw ye Geordie Whelps And his bonny woman? Were ye at the place Ca'd the Kittle Housie? Saw ye Geordie's grace Riding on a goosie? Geordie he's a man There is little doubt o't; He's done a' he can Wha can do without it? Down there came a blade Linkin' like my lordie; He wad drive a trade At the loom o' Geordie. Though the claith were bad, Blythly may we niffer; Gin we get a wab, It makes little differ. We hae tint our plaid, Bannet, belt and swordie, Ha's and mailins braid -- But we hae a Geordie! Jocky's gane to France, And Montgomery's lady; There they'll learn to dance: Madame, are ye ready? They'll be back belyue Belted, brisk and lordly; Brawly may they thrive To dance a jig wi' Geordie! Hey for Sandy Don! Hey for Cockolorum! Hey for Bobbing John, And his Highland Quorum! Mony a sword and lance Swings at Highland hurdie; How they'll skip and dance O'er the bum o' Geordie! Note: When George I imported his seraglio of impoverished gentlewomen from Germany, he provided the Jacobite songwriters with material for some of their most ribald verses. Madame Kilmansegge, Countess of Platen, is referred to exclusively as "The Sow" in the songs, while the King's favorite mistress, the lean and haggard Madame Schulemburg (afterwards named Duchess of Kendall) was given the name of "The Goose". She is the "goosie" referred to in this song. The "blade" is the Count Koningsmark. "Bobbing John refers to John, Earl of Mar, who was at the time recruiting Highlanders for the Hanoverian cause. "Geordie Whelps" is, of course, George I himself. MJ Lunnon=London; Kittle Housie=Brothel; Linkin=Tripping along; Claith=Cloth; Niffer=Haggle; Gin=If; Wab=Web (or length) of cloth; Tint=Lost; Ha's and Mailins=Houses and Farmlands; Gane=Gone;=Belyve=Quickly; Brawly=Wall; Hurdie=Buttock |
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03 Feb 13 - 03:13 PM (#3475355) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: John MacKenzie Victoria we're coming for you soon Victoria, it may be when the moon Is shining on December frost around the flowers of June But we're coming for you soon, Victoria ***************************************************************** Oh Paddy dear and did you hear the awful news they say Princess Margaret and Lord Snowdon They have joined the IRA They're drilling in the mountains to the sound of fife and drums Young Tony's taking snapshots while yon Maggie fires a gun ***************************************************************** The sea o the sea id the graw geal mo chridhe Sp) And long may she roll between England and me It's a sure guarantee that some hour we'll be free Thank christ we're surrounded by water. |
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03 Feb 13 - 03:18 PM (#3475357) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: Stanron Don't overlook 'London bridge is falling down'. The king, forgotten which one, gives the income from London bridge to his wife. She can't see any point in wasting it on maintainance, hence the song. |
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04 Feb 13 - 04:51 AM (#3475524) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: Jim McLean I've written a few: Maggie's Waddin' The Royal Horses Prince Charles The English Royal Family The German Tour The Queen's Speech .... |
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04 Feb 13 - 06:50 AM (#3475562) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: Allan Conn Mind don't mean to harp on but Cam Ye O'er Frae France isn't really an anti-monarchist song either. It is anti-Hanovarian. There is a difference between disliking who is on the throne to disliking the very idea of there being a throne! |
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04 Feb 13 - 07:36 AM (#3475572) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: Nigel Parsons Of course, if you're truly after "Anti-monarchist" songs, maybe America (or, more recently, Australia) might prove more fertile soil. |
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04 Feb 13 - 10:00 AM (#3475634) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: Phil Edwards Just out of interest, are there any traditional anti-monarchist songs? Myriads, says Taconicus. Hundreds, says Steve. But all anyone has come up with is one (well-known) Jacobite song and one (obscure) anti-Jacobite one, neither of which is anti-monarchist at all. |
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04 Feb 13 - 11:32 AM (#3475675) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: GUEST,John Foxen Does this one count? The bastard king of England |
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04 Feb 13 - 12:49 PM (#3475704) Subject: Lyr Add: THE TREE OF LIBERTY (Robert Burns) From: GUEST,Allan Conn "The Tree of Liberty" attributed to Burns more than hints at an anti-monarchist view or at least attacks overt monarchial power even if it is specifically talking about France before saying the Tree doesn't exist between Tweed and Thames. Several verses are Heard ye o' the tree o' France, I watna what's the name o't; Around the tree the patriots dance, Weel Europe kens the fame o't. It stands where ance the Bastile stood, A prison built by kings, man, When Superstition's hellish brood Kept France in leading-strings, man. But vicious folk aye hate to see The works o' Virtue thrive, man; The courtly vermin's banned the tree, And grat to see it thrive, man; King Loui' thought to cut it down, When it was unco sma', man For this the watchman cracked his crown, There are also letters from Burns to a Mrs Dunlop, who he fell out with over the issue where he states that he can't sympathise with whining over the execution of certain personages! His views got him in enough bother without specifically attacking the British Crown which may well have seen him arrested. |
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09 Feb 13 - 05:04 PM (#3477678) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: Phil Edwards Any more traditional anti-monarchist songs? |
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10 Feb 13 - 02:14 AM (#3477757) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: freda underhill The Old Divide and Rule by Alistair Hulett - trad in style.. |
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10 Feb 13 - 04:24 AM (#3477771) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: Phil Edwards Any more anti-monarchist traditional songs? The first couple of replies suggested there were tons of them. |
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10 Feb 13 - 04:52 AM (#3477782) Subject: Lyr Add: QUEEN ELEANOR'S CONFESSION From: Jim Carroll "Any more traditional anti-monarchist songs?" Can't lay my hands on it at present, but I have a recording somewhere of MacColl singing the broadside "The Brass Warming Pan", which suggests that the powers-that-be of the time produced a male heir to the throne by slipping one into the queen's bed in the aforementioned vessel. Not necessarily traditional, and probably not singable, but some of the earliest songs on royalty are to be found in Thomas Wright's 'The Political Songs of England - from the reign of John to that of Edward II'. Most are in either Latin or early French, but they come with summaries in English, and all are well annotated. Also worth looking out is 'A Book of Scotish Pasquils (satirical pieces) 1868 (no named author, but it has been attributed to Maidment). Peggy Seeger used to sing a beautiful ballad called "Fair Rosamund" about the seduction of Henry II's mistress Rosamund, who was eventually poisoned Queen Eleanor. From memory: I have a sister, young Clifford, he says, A sister no-one knows.. She has a colour in her cheeks, Like drops of blood in snow, Like drops of blood in snow. She has a waist, a waist, a waist, Like to my silver cane, And I wouldn't for ten thousand pounds King Henry know her name King Henry know her name. The king being up in a bower so high, Hidden close and still, And every word young Clifford spoke, He wrote down in a bill He wrote down in a bill. ..... cant remember verse The first fair line that she looked on, It made her laugh and smile And the second line that she looked on The tears they did run down, The tears they did run down. Cursed be my brother Clifford, Cursed may he be, Why can't he dote on horse or hounds, That he must dote on me? That he must dote on me? My own personal favourite about the gettings-up-to of royalty. QUEEN ELEANOR'S CONFESSION.
Queen Eleanor's sick and she's very, very sick, |
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10 Feb 13 - 08:07 AM (#3477839) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: Phil Edwards Two fine songs - thanks! I don't know the Brass Warming Pan, but the story is anti-Jacobite rather than anti-monarchist - "down with this King", not "down with kings". I may be wrong (actually I hope I am), but I get the impression there's not very much outright anti-monarchism in tradition. |
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11 Feb 13 - 06:22 AM (#3478206) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: MGM·Lion Great lover of Queen Eleanor's Confession myself: it's on my You Tube channel. First learned it from Sandy Paton IIRC. Only really false note above is Vic Gammon's about Q Victoria "lying back and thinking of England". That might have been the advice given by their mothers to mid-C19 brides on their wedding eve according to certain dubious folklore, along with the injunction that "much as you may hate it, remember that it has happened to the dear Queen". But it is on trustworthy record, from her own diaries &c, that the Queen herself loved the sex-act and couldn't get enough of it ~~ old Albert was quite some stud from all accounts, and her protracted mourning was largely due to her deprivation & frustration. Whether any of the tales of her subsequently consoling herself with her trusted Highland ghillie John Brown have any basis in fact has of course long been much disputed. ~M~ |
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13 Feb 13 - 06:26 AM (#3478963) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: MGM·Lion "Any more anti-monarchist traditional songs? The first couple of replies suggested there were tons of them." ---- Yes ~ but, as has been pointed out, these were not actual anti-monarchist songs, but songs preferring one monarch to another: eg Jacobite, wishing Charles Edward Stuart was king instead of 'Geordie Whelps'; whereas a truly anti-monarchist song would surely be one objecting to any monarch at all, embracing a republican [or such system] pov -- a vital distinction the thread doesn't seem to have fully addressed. Any true traditional examples of this, anyone? ~M~ |
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13 Feb 13 - 06:48 AM (#3478973) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: Jim McLean Not traditional, M, but one verse from my song about Prince Charles: Our king won't come from London Town Nor yet from Donegal, Nor will he come from Scotland, For we'll have no king at all. |
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13 Feb 13 - 07:10 AM (#3478984) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: GUEST,henryp The queen, apparently, has a Slough postcode. Robb Johnson also wrote; God save our gracious queen, long live our noble queen She lives in Slough It's by the motorway, just a stone's throw away From where the refugees all stay She lives in Slough She's just like you and me, with a posher lavatory She lives in Slough Tourists and tyrants know, it's handy for Heathrow She wears a hat and says "Hello" ("What do you do?") She lives in Slough And though she owns Balmoral, and her income's immoral, She lives in Slough And though there's a credit squeeze, and all our wages freeze Who get's another Jubilee? (Paid for you and me) She lives in Slough Alternatively; And though she owns Balmoral, and her income's immoral, She lives in Slough She probably likes the view, and a good sag aloo She probably votes Labour, too She lives in Slough! |
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13 Feb 13 - 07:12 AM (#3478986) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: MGM·Lion Ah, yes, indeed, Jim. And well in the Thurso Berwick tradition of "We'll mak oor land republican in a Scottish breakaway." There indeed is true anti-monarchism. But I suspect OP was seeking something rather older, don't you? ~M~ |
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13 Feb 13 - 07:52 AM (#3479000) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: Young Buchan From my time at the back of school assemblies: All things bright and beautiful; All creatures great and small; All things wise and wonderful: Prince Philip shoots them all. |
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13 Feb 13 - 08:40 AM (#3479019) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: MGM·Lion Drift ~~ but cannot resist mentioning here my own additional verse to that particularly fulsome hymn ~~ The malarial mosquito The bubonic-carrying rat He must have made the lot of them So what do you think of that! ~M~ |
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13 Feb 13 - 09:24 AM (#3479030) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: Phil Edwards So basically we've got a) Traditional songs about actual (easily identifiable) kings and queens: not many of them, generally not anti-monarchist or scandalous (e.g. Queen Jane) b) Traditional songs about more or less mythical kings and queens: tons of them, not anti-monarchist but often scandalous (King X and Queen Y shagging around, having people killed on a whim etc) c) Traditional songs slagging off one king but saying that he should be replaced by another king: tons of them, sometimes scandalous, not anti-monarchist d) Modern songs slagging off the monarchy in general: anti-monarchist, scandalous as you like, not traditional. Quoting the OP: I am looking for British songs and tunes from all ages which reflect ant-monarchist sentiments. A: There aren't any from "all ages" - just from this age (more specifically, from the reign of the present queen). |
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13 Feb 13 - 12:19 PM (#3479087) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle Be fair Phil. I know real folksingers are always blethering on about the first world war, when they write 'in the tradition'. You can't really expect the rest of us to write songs based on the theme Queen Victoria was a shit even if she were - the people we sing to don't give a bugger. |
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13 Feb 13 - 12:59 PM (#3479110) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: Snuffy Phil doesn't want "QV was a shit" or "Hit the road, Liz" - he's actually complaining about being offered that stuff when what he's really he's looking for is "Off with his head", "Cromwell had the right idea", "I've got a guillotine for you, Louis", "The only good king is a dead one" or even just "All monarchs are bastards" Can't you come up with anything along those lines? |
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13 Feb 13 - 01:21 PM (#3479120) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: Jim McLean Possibly anti-monarchist songs just weren't possible as the singers/writers would be executed or transported. I do know that a man named McLean (no relative unfortunately) tried to shoot Queen Victoria! |
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13 Feb 13 - 01:28 PM (#3479127) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: MGM·Lion Don't think so, Jim. Singing was generally permitted as a let-off-steam outlet to prevent worse in the way of dissent. But certainly "Here's a health unto His Majesty" and "Here's a health to the king and a lasting peace" appear widespread sentiments, rather than the opposite. Even the songs of the American wars of 1776 & 1812 appear to present the sentiment that "Monarchy doesn't suit us Americans" rather than any attacks on the institution of monarchy per se. Can anyone think of any American songs opposed to the actual institution of royalty or kingship in itself? You'd expect some, but no specific example comes to mind. ~M~ |
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13 Feb 13 - 01:36 PM (#3479130) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: Jim McLean I know Robert Burns was warned he would lose his job as an Exiseman for supporting the French Revolution in verse and had to do a rapid about turn. I can understand sycophantic praise for the establishment would be allowed, nay, encouraged. |
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13 Feb 13 - 01:56 PM (#3479137) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: MGM·Lion Threats of losing employment as an exciseman ~~ a public office ~~ is not quite the same as the executions or transportations which you suggested in your previous post would be visited on the singers of songs critical of the establishment. Do you know of any actual example of anyone suffering such a penalty for such an offence? Thought not. Any more than anyone can actually turn up the proceedings of an actual serviceman's ever having been court martialled for singing 'MacCafferty' ~~ a familiar example of such canards. ~M~ |
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13 Feb 13 - 02:55 PM (#3479167) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: Phil Edwards The evidence here does seem to be in line with what Bellamy said about radical traditional songs generally - that for every traditional song saying "how oppressed we are as workers, let's overthrow the boss" there are ten saying "how happy we workers are and here's a health to the boss". Of course, the point isn't that the people writing and singing those songs were right to think that way - just that that is the way they thought. |
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13 Feb 13 - 02:56 PM (#3479169) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: Jim McLean He removed his spectacles with his left hand, and sighed with a slight roll of his eyes heavenward. His piece in the Times had been slightly contradicted by some buffoon. "Thought not," he said to himself. "They know not what they think". He reached for his brandy glass, set his spectacles on the Georgian side table and slipped his snuff box from his elaborately decorated waistcoat. "I wonder why I write for this rag ", he murmured . "The arrogant, ignorant replies are rather tedious". |
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13 Feb 13 - 05:35 PM (#3479233) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: Phil Edwards Très drôle, Jim. While we're here, does anyone know any traditional anti-monarchist songs? |
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14 Feb 13 - 04:36 AM (#3479433) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: GUEST,Big Al Whittle I had thought we had furnished you with traditional and contemporary anti monarchist folksongs. Perhaps you could be more specific. I despise the monarchy and the class system it fronts, but I would not wish to shed the blood of the members of the royal family. I think my songs express that adequately. I think Cam Ye O'er from France, which I also posted was traditional and anti monarchist. I'm not really sure how we have failed to fulfil the brief. be more specific. |
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14 Feb 13 - 06:09 AM (#3479459) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: GUEST,Fred McCormick MtheGM. The idea that singing McAfferty was a chargeable offence in the army is probably the army equivalent of an urban myth. But anyone caught singing Kevin Barry, or any other republican song, in Ireland in the days before the Irish Free State treaty, would not have had many polite words to say about canards. |
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14 Feb 13 - 06:21 AM (#3479463) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: MartinRyan But anyone caught singing Kevin Barry, or any other republican song, in Ireland in the days before the Irish Free State treaty, would not have had many polite words to say about canards. Interesting thought. The song appears to have first seen the light of day in Scotland, IIRC. I wonder is there any evidence of when it was first heard in Ireland? Not much time between his execution and the Treaty. Regards |
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14 Feb 13 - 06:21 AM (#3479464) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: MartinRyan - and apologies for the thread creep! Regards |
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14 Feb 13 - 07:12 AM (#3479478) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: GUEST,Fred McCormick Martin, Well, I was generalising, but as far as I know, Kevin Barry was written in Ireland, immediately after his murder. I wonder if you are thinking about Johnny Thompson, the Scots footballer who was killed by a kick to the head in 1931. The song which was written about him was set to the tune of Kevin Barry. In any event, there is plenty of evidence to indicate that the Black and Tans would have dealt viciously with anyone caught singing anything they considered seditious. Note also their lethal proscripition on anyone they caught speaking Irish, and the ban on public assemblies which resulted in the Croke Park massacre. Note also the case of Alexander Somerville, a soldier in the Royal Scots Greys, who received 500 lashes with a cat of nine tails for an act which the authorities considered seditious. Small wonder you don't come across too many anti-monarchist songs. |
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14 Feb 13 - 07:12 AM (#3479479) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: Jim McLean Two years, Martin, between his hanging and the signing of the Treaty. I would have thought, considering the outrage at the time, that the song was written fairly quickly after his death. The identity of the writer is unknown although theire is a suggestion it emanated from Scotland. |
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14 Feb 13 - 08:28 AM (#3479509) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: MGM·Lion Al -- Cam Ye O'er was an anti-Georgian song, i.e. Jacobite. The Jacobites were not anti-monarchist, they just wanted a different king ~~ a Stuart not a Hanoverian. So it was scarcely an anti-monarchist song. Best regards ~M~ |
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14 Feb 13 - 08:32 AM (#3479512) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: MartinRyan JIm Yes - I think it first appeared as a broadside in Glasgow? Memory slipping... but there may well be a fair idea of the author, somewhere. I'll see if I can find my old notes. Regards |
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14 Feb 13 - 08:36 AM (#3479514) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: MGM·Lion The actual facts about Somerville. Note that it was 100 lashes not 500 to which he was sentenced; of which he received only 50, his colonel saying half-way thru that 50 were enough, "He is but a young soldier" [quoted in his Autobiography Of A Working Man, 1848]. Note also that he was NOT punished for sedition as such, as this was NOT a breach of military law; but his officers had to trump up a charge of disobedience to orders against him. "Somerville had joined the Royal Scots Greys regiment of the British Army in December 1831. In May 1832, during the disturbances caused by the Reform Bill, Somerville wrote to a newspaper claiming that the army would protect property but would not stop citizens exercising their rights and would not support a military government. Officers in the army wanted to punish him but because he had not broke the law they ordered him at riding school to ride a unruly horse. When he dismounted and refused to remount he was court-martialled and punished with 100 lashes. He was supported by newspapers and MPs as they believed he had been punished for his political opinions. The court of inquiry acquitted his commanding officer but Somerville's questioning of the officers aroused suspicions that he had been flogged for the letter. He purchased his discharge from the army after a subscription was raised." Wikipedia ~M~ |
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14 Feb 13 - 09:12 AM (#3479528) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: GUEST,henryp Even now, whilst Scotland is considering its future as an independent state, I haven't heard much protest against the monarchy. The queen will still reign over Scotland, won't she? |
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14 Feb 13 - 09:59 AM (#3479546) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: Jim McLean Scotland was a kingdom when she entered into the union with England. In fact both countries shared the same monarch James the 6th of Scotland who was also James the first of England. for about 100 years before the Union. If the union is dissolved then Scotland and England will revert to independent kingdoms sharing the same monarch. I am not a member of the SNP like many other republican supporters of independence. |
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14 Feb 13 - 03:44 PM (#3479681) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: Phil Edwards I had thought we had furnished you with traditional and contemporary anti monarchist folksongs. Lots of contemporary examples, no traditional ones. Saying "we don't want this king, we want this one instead" isn't anti-monarchist. |
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14 Feb 13 - 06:04 PM (#3479756) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: Allan Conn "The queen will still reign over Scotland, won't she?" They are seperate issues. The SNP's referendum looks to put an end to the Act of Union of 1707 which was when the United Kingdom of Great Britain was established when the Scottish and English parliaments were would up and a new British parliament created. The monarch will remain Head of State just as was the case prior to 1707. Any debate on that would be for the future. There are republican elements within the SNP but I suspect the leadership simply feel bringing that issue up would distract from their prime goal of independence. |
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15 Feb 13 - 07:48 AM (#3479937) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: GUEST MtheGM. Somerville was actually sentenced to 200 lashes, not 500 as I thought and not 100 as Wikipedia claims. His sentence was commuted after 100 lashes, after which he spent six days in a hospital, recovering from his ordeal. My apologies for any confusion I may have caused, but I was going off my memory when I should have taken the trouble to look up Somerville's autobiography. Please note though that I did not say Somerville was tried for sedition. I said, and this was purely for the sake of brevity, that he was flogged for an act which the authorities considered seditious. He was in fact set up deliberately and precisely because he hadn't broken any law of sedition. The point I was making was that one doesn't come across too many openly seditious songs, about the monarchy or anything else, simply because the singing of such songs was too bloody dangerous. BTW. Here's the actual quote from Somerville's commanding officer, as it appears in The Autobiography of a Working Man. "Stop. Take him down, he is a young soldier". That, presumably is what counted for clemency in the British army and Wikipedia's misquote is presumably what counts for accuracy in Wikipedia. The actual facts about Somerville. Note that it was 100 lashes not 500 to which he was sentenced; of which he received only 50, his colonel saying half-way thru that 50 were enough, "He is but a young soldier" [quoted in his Autobiography Of A Working Man, 1848]. Note also that he was NOT punished for sedition as such, as this was NOT a breach of military law; but his officers had to trump up a charge of disobedience to orders against him. "Somerville had joined the Royal Scots Greys regiment of the British Army in December 1831. In May 1832, during the disturbances caused by the Reform Bill, Somerville wrote to a newspaper claiming that the army would protect property but would not stop citizens exercising their rights and would not support a military government. Officers in the army wanted to punish him but because he had not broke the law they ordered him at riding school to ride a unruly horse. When he dismounted and refused to remount he was court-martialled and punished with 100 lashes. He was supported by newspapers and MPs as they believed he had been punished for his political opinions. The court of inquiry acquitted his commanding officer but Somerville's questioning of the officers aroused suspicions that he had been flogged for the letter. He purchased his discharge from the army after a subscription was raised." Wikipedia |
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15 Feb 13 - 08:32 AM (#3479955) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: GUEST,Fred McCormick Apologies for omitting my name from the last post. |
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15 Feb 13 - 01:03 PM (#3480074) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: GUEST,Doc John Here's my Jubilee effort. Tune: Lilly Marlene Tear down all your bunting, rip down every flag. Why celebrate sixty years of that old bag? She may wave and open things with all her might, But still remains a parasite. That's from Jub'lee Dodgers; we've all pissed off to France. The French they did the right thing in 1793, They cut off their King's head, then that of Queen Marie. The Russians they did the right thing too The shot the Tsar and his whole damn crew. There's plenty of mine shafts waiting, since Maggie closed the pits. What a silly circus is a street party: A dried up boiled ham sandwich and a cup of luke warm tea. Dodging the raindrops and cheering the queen, The silliest farce I've ever seen. That's from the Jub'lee Dodgers; we've all pissed off to France Then the wine prevented any further artistic (?) creation |
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16 Feb 13 - 04:34 AM (#3480274) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: Phil Edwards The point I was making was that one doesn't come across too many openly seditious songs, about the monarchy or anything else, simply because the singing of such songs was too bloody dangerous. It's possible. The problem is that we don't seem to have any evidence of such songs existing in the first place. |
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16 Feb 13 - 06:08 AM (#3480294) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: GUEST,Fred McCormick If they were dangerous to sing then they were dangerous to write. Ipso facto, I don't think many of them existed in the first place. One or two exceptions do come to mind however, in the form of Luddite songs and Captain Swing songs. I suspect thoughh these would have been sung in highly clandestine circumstances. Also, in Ireland especially, quite a few songwriters got round the problem by not naming the object of their sedition and dressing them up as love songs or as laments for their dear departed blackbird or whatever. |
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21 Feb 13 - 08:31 AM (#3481968) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: Phil Edwards The trouble is, there's very little evidence that anyone wanted to write songs like that, outside of brief and unusual periods of popular mobilisation. You might as well say that the risk to the singer is the reason why there aren't any songs about desecrating the local church and stringing up the vicar - it's certainly true that anyone singing a song like that would have had a hard time of it, but there's no reason to believe anyone wanted to. |
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21 Feb 13 - 11:07 AM (#3482026) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: MGM·Lion Quite. Why do so many on here find it so difficult to grasp the patent fact that for the greatest part of out history - up to, say, some time after the 1st World War - the vast majority of the people have been perfectly content to live sunder a monarchy, finding in the institution a real sense of security? Never mind this vain search for antimonarchist folk songs; let's just see some acknowledgment by Fred & his lot of the unarguable fact that widespread songs like all those Whitsun & Easter hymns ended as a matter of course with a loyal "God Bless our King and Queen and all the royal folk" stanza: listen again to the Waddon Whitsuntide Hymn on the Young Tradition's first record, say. People just liked having a royal family to focus their feelings of patriotic security on. It is simply idle to deny it. So... Live with it! ~M~ |
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21 Feb 13 - 11:42 AM (#3482041) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: GUEST,Fred McCormick Sorry M. If you actually went and visited a few Easter and Whitsun customs, as I do, you would find very little pro-royal sentiment being expressed. Ditto for customs from any other time of the year. EG., in the entire corpus of South Yorkshire carols, I cannot think of a single one which incorporates that sort of nonsense. In fact, pro-royalist sentiments in British folksongs generally are not very common, and thankfully they're even rarer in Ireland. Tell you what. Go and dig up the bones of a few landless labourers and ask them what they thought of the monarchy. My guess is that they regarded it with very much the same fervour as Marx regarded the carbuncle he had once had on his dick. |
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21 Feb 13 - 11:54 AM (#3482046) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: MartinRyan Heard a very interesting talk by Terry Moylan (he of The Age of Revolution in the Irish Song Traditon) the other night. Based on the contents of a songbook called Paddy's Resource published by the United Irishmen in the period approx. 1790-1810. This included "The Carmagnoles", of which the final verse is: Old church and king, in close embrace The burdens of the human race The people tell you to your face That you will soon repent it; For kings in power and preaching drones The source of all our heavy groans Down from your pulpits and your thrones You'll tumble unlamented Chorus For was not I oft telling thee The French could fight right heartily The Carmagnoles have made you free So now you may believe me. Revived in recent years by a number of singers - including Mudcat's own Liberty Boy, who used a line of it as title of his last CD! Regards p.s. I'll see if I can find audio/video online. |
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21 Feb 13 - 12:46 PM (#3482066) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: MGM·Lion You're clearly just listening to a different lot of May & Whitsun songs, Fred. And try also those dialogue "Servingman and Husbandman" paeans to the joys of country life, which invariably end with some such formulation as "So come good people all, and be you great or small Honour the King of this land; And let us whatsoever to do our best endeavour For to maintain the husbandman". The Mummer's Play, as you well know, would also end with victory and glorification of St George as emblem of Crown and Country. You have spent this whole thread asserting that the people hated their monarchy, but have been unable to produce one iota of popular evidence, and have had to fall back on fantasies of digging up a labouring man's bones and communicating with them in some anagogic fashion. Whereas I have just produced for you three examples of explicitly expressed royalism in three strains of widespread popular song &/or lore. I have not claimed that such sentiments will be explicit in every version; but you have not demonstrated any reason whatsoever to dismiss or discount them. And what was the proud title of the girl chosen to preside over the May ceremonies, eh? She wasn't the Commissaress of the May, was she? I say again ~~ live with it. ~M~ |
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21 Feb 13 - 01:55 PM (#3482096) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: MGM·Lion "If you can drink one glass, then we can drink two Here's a health to Victoria, the same unto you Mind what you're doing and see that all's right If you give naught, we take naught, farewell and good night" Heysham Pace-Egging Song |
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21 Feb 13 - 02:45 PM (#3482133) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: MGM·Lion And consider The 4-Loom/Poor Cotton Weaver, whose wife's instinct in times of hardship is, if able to get clogs for the journey, to go to London to appeal to the King, confident of his sympathy; and will resort to fighting only if disappointed therein. Even so, she asserts that, for all her poverty, "She's nowt against t'King, But she likes a fair thing". A naive, but surely moving, simple soul's attitude ~~ a bit of folkloric instinct, in fact. ~M~ |
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22 Feb 13 - 03:02 AM (#3482318) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: Phil Edwards Those verses in the Four Loom Weaver were controversial in their time - Mrs Gaskell bowdlerised them when she quoted the song. I think the very thought of imagining being prepared to fight the King, if it was absolutely necessary, was pretty daring. |
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22 Feb 13 - 03:45 AM (#3482325) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: Jim Carroll I can remember being there at the birth of a potential anti-royal song on one of the Aldermaston marches. We had drawn level with Windsor when somebody asked did anybody have a song about royalty. Somebody obliged with (to the tune of Bless 'Em All) "Anti-royal, anti-royal, We're singing an anti-royal song, We're singing it as we are marching along, Singing an anti-royal song. Where's the queen, where's the queen, Where's the queen as we're marching along, She's up in the palace a-sitting on the throne, Singing an anti-royal song." Others joined in, adding improvised verses and eventually it grew to about half a dozen and took a cumulative form. Hardly deathless verse, but it took our minds off the sore feet for a time. I later heard it from a totally different part of the march Jim Carroll |
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22 Feb 13 - 05:11 AM (#3482345) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: MGM·Lion Thread drift alert: Have I mentioned before, talking of songs on the Aldermaston marches, that I shared a flat at the time of the first march in West Hampstead with John Brunner, sf writer?; one of the initial march-planning CND meetings, with Pat Arrowsmith, Mike Randle, John Hasted, et al, took place in our big living-room. It was John Brunner who wrote the recognised CND anthem, The H-Bomb's Thunder [to tune of The Miners' Life Guard], which was sung on all the marches, &, I believe, the US equivalents. John could not sing a note, so showed me the words in draft & asked me to sing it back to him to see how it sounded. So I can claim to be the first person ever to sing this song, since sung by millions!. Sorry for thread drift; but it is a true tale. ~M~ |
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22 Feb 13 - 06:19 AM (#3482356) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: MGM·Lion Re Mrs Gaskell & The Cotton Weaver song ~~ The Oldham Weaver, she calls it in Mary Barton ~ Suggesting that she 'bowdlerised' it, Phil, implies some sort of 'definitive' version from which she had departed; as which, as we all know, there is no such thing regarding a song in the tradition. It is perfectly possible that it came to her [from one of her husband's congregation, perhaps?] in the form she quotes it in the novel. I don't think, anyhow, in the version in which she says that, if things don't alter when she has seen the Great Man, she will fight "in blood up to th'een", that she literally means that she will actually physically attack the King himself; simply that she will take a more aggressive initiative in general. ~M~ |
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22 Feb 13 - 07:02 AM (#3482372) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: Phil Edwards After reflection (and another coffee) I think you're right - the "great mon" is the supreme arbiter, & if an appeal to him didn't sort things out she'd be willing to fight. It's quite a complex thought, actually (this may be the second coffee talking) - if she had clothes (or clogs) to put on, she'd go to London, and if that appeal didn't work then she'd fight. But the song's just established that they're dirt poor, and for just that reason they're never going to get the chance to appeal to the King - and by implication they're never going to fight. It's like a rather dark version of "There's a hole in my bucket" - "I'm too poor to afford decent clothes, I'd fight for my rights but I should appeal to the King first, but I can't appeal to the King because I haven't got any decent clothes". |
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22 Feb 13 - 03:36 PM (#3482570) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: GUEST,Father Christmas MtheGM, groan, groan,smug, smug, vomit, vomit. |
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22 Feb 13 - 04:23 PM (#3482584) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: kendall I have a song that supposedly tells the truth about Bonnie Prince Charlie, but it's not trad. |
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23 Feb 13 - 02:39 AM (#3482756) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: MGM·Lion "I've done my duty, served my King, and now I bless my fate." 'On Board a 98' DT ~~ From the book, "A Bonnie Bunch of Roses," edited by Dan Milner, 1983. Collected by Vaughan Williams. |
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23 Feb 13 - 02:51 AM (#3482757) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: MGM·Lion So there are 6 examples from tradition [so far] expressing folkloric love of or respect for royalty, and/or satisfaction in living and serving under it; and not a peep from Fred. Where he got to? Give up, eh, Fred? Admit your baseless assertions, with no supporting instances, were no more than that, do you? And if GUEST Father Xmas doesn't like it, he can stick it up his chimney, with the vomit-inducing luv & compliments of ~M~ & here's hoping he'll throw up all over his nice white beard and red suit... |
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23 Feb 13 - 03:23 AM (#3482763) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: Jim Carroll It is hardly surprising that there are few anti-monarchist songs in Britain: "Parliament passed the Treason Felony Act in 1848. This act made advocacy of republicanism punishable by transportation to Australia, later life imprisonment. The Law Lords ruled in 2003 that this law does not prohibit peaceful printed advocacy of anti-monarchy sentiments.[4]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republicanism_in_the_United_Kingdom As recently as the (last) Royal wedding (Gawd bless 'em!), police were accused of heavy-handed tactics in preventing anti-monarchist demonstrations and the courts later ruled that their behaviour was permissible when the matter came to court. This thread prompted me to search through our books for examples - I had forgotten this gem - 'Caricature History of the Georges' or "Annals of the House of Hanover, compiled from the squibs, broadsides, window pictures, lampoons and pictorial caricatures of the time", by Thomas Wright esq., FSA, John Camden Hotten, Piccadilly (1867) - well worth a peep for a non-establishment commentary on the times, including the monarchy. Jim Carroll |
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23 Feb 13 - 05:13 AM (#3482774) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: MartinRyan There's a distinct whiff of the "Heads I win, Tails you lose!" argument about this - there are no anti-monarchist folk songs because the manarchy were so anti-folk...". Runs rather counter to the view of folk song as being inherently a counter culture, so to speak. Regards |
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23 Feb 13 - 05:34 AM (#3482779) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: Jim Carroll "Runs rather counter to the view of folk song as being inherently a counter culture" Not if the source of that counter culture is answerable to laws which make sure that certain subjects are no-go areas. Couple this with generation after generation who have been brought up to revere the monarchy on a daily basis (can still remember being forced to stand on the road outside Speke Secondary Modern School in the pissing rain to watch the Queen Mother being driven past at high speed (she didn't even bother to wave to me!) and you have the almost insurmountable combination of conditioning and coercion. Jim Carroll |
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23 Feb 13 - 05:52 AM (#3482783) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: GUEST,Allan Conn Certainly as far as Scotland goes in the 17thC etc wouldn't it be right to say that the movement that was anti-monarchy (that is the more extreme of the Covenanters) weren't exactly known for their songs of any kind never mind anti-monarchy songs? Psalms aside! Don't know if that is the same for the Puritan wing in England? |
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23 Feb 13 - 06:00 AM (#3482787) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: Phil Edwards the almost insurmountable combination of conditioning and coercion The hegemony of the ruling class, in other words. I agree. It depends how you look at it, though. Did those pressures stop a kind of subterranean oppositional working-class consciousness expressing itself - or did they stop it developing in the first place? If it's the latter, we may have to accept that folk radicalism is a modern phenomenon, and the old songs come out of a tradition that was never - or only very rarely - at all radical. |
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23 Feb 13 - 06:07 AM (#3482790) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: MartinRyan Phil Well analysed. Regards |
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23 Feb 13 - 06:40 AM (#3482796) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: MGM·Lion But Jim, Fred, et al, none of you has really answered my point, which I think I have demonstrated many instances to support:~ that the vast majority of the folk for the vast majority of the time actually liked being ruled by a monarch, whom they were prepared to bless and respect, whom they thought of as personifying a deeply held patriotic feeling they shared, and whom they rejoiced and felt honoured in serving ~~ "I've done my duty, served my King, and now I bless my fate". I know this flies in the face of much that you lot hold dear in your turn; but I don't think all your urgings of coercion and conditioning and legislative terrorising are going to make this, imo, incontrovertible fact go away. ~M~ |
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23 Feb 13 - 07:24 AM (#3482806) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: Jim Carroll "the vast majority of the time actually liked being ruled by a monarch" Which really doesn't answer the effect of the cultural manipulation that undoubtedly took place. If you are conditioned to "like" something of which you have no knowledge other than that which you have had hammered into you throughout your conscious existence, is that "liking" or just accepting what has been fed to you without question? For centuries the monarchy has been no more than cultural wallpaper covering the cracks and defects of our society; there to be rolled out in times of need. I'm not questioning your description of 'how' it was Mike, just trying to understand 'why' it was, and how quickly the situation could change when the circumstances were right . It's difficult not to remember the fact that the rebels who took over the GPO in Dublin in 1916 (Ireland was then a solid part of the British Empire ) had to be protected from jeering, missile-throwing Dubliners demanding to know why they "weren't with our lads in the trenches" and within eighteen months were lauded as national heroes, eventually leading to the treaty. Jim Carroll |
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23 Feb 13 - 07:31 AM (#3482809) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: MGM·Lion And I am not sure why I put my last post in the past tense, come to think of it. You might not like it; but most people still like it. I won't rehearse yet again the story of the King & Queen, Geo VI & the later-to-be Queen Mum, visiting my Garden Suburb School when it got bombed out in 1940, his exquisite courtesy to a woman near me who called out 'good luck', the big girl who slapped him on the back so that she could tell people she had touched the King, &c. It is all on an old thread somewhere. But I will add that I felt an identical atmosphere & attitude in a crowd gathered outside Ely Station about 4 years ago to welcome the Queen off a train from London, my just happening to be there because I was meeting some friends travelling on the same train. The crowd spontaneously clapped. My friends thought I was winding them up when I texted them to tell them HM was on their train, which they didn't even know, but were over the moon to have a chance of catching a glimpse of her as they alighted. These were all just ordinary typical people; & to my mind they are much more ordinary & typical than your grudging and envious selves. |
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23 Feb 13 - 07:45 AM (#3482816) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: MGM·Lion Don't be disingenuous, Jim. Ireland was never a "solid part of the British Empire", as many other countries were, hard as it may be to recall it now. I know there was a briefish Sepoy Revolt, Indian Mutiny, whevs, in the 1850s; but in Ireland it has been a long & unbroken history of simmering resentment with many actual outbreaks. Even in the patriotic wartime 1940s, I remember being taught as fact by Miss Holding at Northampton Town & County School that "We have always misgoverned Ireland" [her very words SFAIR], going into all the history of Cromwell, the Georges, the lot. "Solid part of the Empire" forsooth!. ~M~ |
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23 Feb 13 - 08:33 AM (#3482836) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: Jim Carroll We must agree to disagree about the present situation - maybe things were very much different were you were brought up and spent the major part of my life than where I was. Not to say that people didn't treat organised royal events in the same way as they did Christmas (which has as little to do with Christianity as November the 5th has to do with the attempt to blow up the Houses of Parliament). My experience among the people I worked with right up to the time I retired was that royalty was a non-issue and the few to whom it was important tended to be figures of fun. The way I described the Easter Week events was exactly as I believe it happened - I would highly recommend Thomas M Coffey's Agony At Easter for some remarkable eye-witness accounts of the end of the rebellion in Dublin. The image of Connolly strapped into a chair because he was too badly wounded to stand in front of a firing squad remains the most powerful image of those events even today. Had the British packed all the rebel leaders off to Frongoch along with the rank-and-file rather than systematically butchering them, I have little doubt that they would have remained in the public mind as a bunch of cranks and there certainly would have been no impetus for the War of Independence that followed. Jim Carroll |
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23 Feb 13 - 08:52 AM (#3482849) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: MGM·Lion Quite ~~ a perfect example of that misgovernment that Miss Holding taught me of, Jim. The treatment of Connolly was unpardonable, as was the whole existence of the Black & Tans But why were Pearce & Connolly at it anyhow? I don't think people do now, or ever did, spend much time actually thinking about royalty. And I had an experience in Northampton much like yours of turning out to cheer a King whose car was behindhand so drove past much too fast. But my point is that, so far as they come into people's consciousness at all, feelings towards them are warm; and opportunities are welcomed of standing and expressing that warmth with applause if they just happen to be on a train that arrives at one's local station. You guys are caught in the usual trap of claiming to be democrats, yet desperately urging opinions, like making daft 'guesses' as to what the bones of long dead working men might say if asked [see Fred's last post!], which you know in your ♡s [again, you think you don't but you do!] fly right in the face of the popular will which you purport so 'democratically' [if a bit patronisingly] to respect. ~M~ |
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23 Feb 13 - 09:46 AM (#3482865) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: Jim Carroll "like making daft 'guesses'" A little arrogant assuming my opinions are "guesses" British politics has been a life-long interest of mine and personally, I have no interest in what Fred has to say on the matter, nor how he chooses to say it - my opinions, beliefs and understandings are my own, nobody elses. Don't you think that lumping us together as "you guys" appears to rule out the idea that any of us possess the ability of independent thought? - and that our life experiences count for nothing? I know what I know, I believe what I believe and my experiences are mine alone. As far as Ireland goes, you misunderstand me, probably deliberately. I am making passing no opinion on Irish history; I am reporting what I believe happened and why, also based on a lifetime's interest. The brutish behaviour of the British establishent transformed general Irish opinions from bemused hostility to admiration, to rebellion and finally to a passion that brought about a civil war - nice work, if you can get it. Your attitude here confirms something the late lamented Frank Harte once said in his opening remarks to a lecture he gave on Irish political songs at the National Folk Festival at Sutton Bonnington. He said "Most English people don't understand the Irish (pregnant pause) but most of us Irish understand the English". I can still see the visible shiver that went down the spines of the assembled company of a roomful of somewhat genteel EFDSSers. Jim Carroll |
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23 Feb 13 - 12:23 PM (#3482907) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: MGM·Lion No, Jim ~~ I didn't mention you in connection with 'guesses'. It was' as I made perfectly clear, Fred who used the word 'guess', explicitly, in his silly last post -- Tell you what. Go and dig up the bones of a few landless labourers and ask them what they thought of the monarchy. My guess is that they regarded it with very much the same fervour as Marx regarded the carbuncle he had once had on his dick. I assure you I was using the word advisedly; so don't you be so paranoid, eh? The rest of your post simply confirms what I have said; you will keep your opinions, Fred will keep his: finding some common ground between you is not exactly 'lumping you together' Meanwhile, I shall keep mine, that yours are misguided, doctrinaire and patronising towards those whom you claim to represent -- or, if you don't like that formulation, whose interests you claim to urge. Say what you will, people did and do like living under a monarchy as a generality, tho not all monarchs are equally popular or respected; and they have always been good at getting rid of the ones who don't come up to scratch, from beheading them in Whitehall to sending them to live with scandalous divorcees in the South of France! ~M~ |
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23 Feb 13 - 01:25 PM (#3482934) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: Jim McLean I wrote my anti monarchy/republican songs starting in the mid 50s. Josh MacRae was criticised in the Scottish press and banned from singing them in Glasgow public halls. The Sunday Post carried a report that "questions had been asked in the House" by a Scottish MP about this "seditious material". I, too, remember having to stand in the street with fellow school pupils and wave union flags when royalty visited Paisley. I think the people who do this freely are the types who swooned at Frankie Sinatra or the Beatles or want to touch the hem of anyone famous .. look at the public adulation of celebrities .... "princess Kate" is a prime example where photos of her royal bump command thousands of pounds. Why people fall over themselves to drool at unelected heads of state or film stars is beyond my comprehension. But I suppose it was ever thus ... however change can happen, Ireland did it. |
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23 Feb 13 - 01:54 PM (#3482941) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: Jim Carroll ...." ask them what they thought of the monarchy." As I have already said - I'm not questioning your description of 'how' it was, just trying to understand 'why', which seems to be far easier to ignore than answer in your case. "that yours are misguided, doctrinaire and patronising towards those whom you claim to represent" Have I - or has anybody ever claimed to represent anybody - don't really expect to get an answer to this one? I leave that to our elders and betters. "misguided, doctrinaire and patronising" And I shall keep my not unsimilar view of your good self only to add sprinkle of hypocracy. Anyway, I think we've taken up far too much space on something that is only marginally relevant to this thread. I'm sure you're right - you usually are. Jim Carroll |
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23 Feb 13 - 02:26 PM (#3482953) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: MGM·Lion Again, Jim, you only selectively read what I wrote. Just as you accused me of saying you made 'guesses' when I had carefully spelled out which statement of Fred's I was referring to, so this time you quote back at me a formulation ['claim to represent'] which I had already explicitly anticipated your finding uncongenial and suggested an alternative. Can't see what I have said to incur your accusation of hypocrisy; but then it is a notoriously easy and convenient little bit of mud to throw at any available target when all else fails. I am fully aware of the irony in the tone of your valedictory sentence. But many a true word, as they say... ~M~ |
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23 Feb 13 - 02:45 PM (#3482958) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: MGM·Lion 'As I have already said - I'm not questioning your description of 'how' it was, just trying to understand 'why', which seems to be far easier to ignore than answer in your case' .,,. Not just 'was', I repeat, but 'is'! Not sure that 'why?' is really a valid question for you to expect a specific answer to, in a case which deals with likes & dislikes; how is one to get further than Disraeli's useful formulation of "Those that like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"? I have simply averred what seems to me a demonstrable fact regarding the people's preferences, which you have been havering between saying you don't question and denouncing as impossible to be the true will of the people because Carroll and his like must know better. You have, anyhow, for all your saying, been disingenuously providing your own answers haven't you? "Conditioning, coercion, fear of consequences" & so forth. And then say you are not questioning 'how' it was, but 'why'; why should I provide answers as to 'why' when you seem so self-satisfiedly cocksure of the answers for yourself? And you then have the all-fire gall to accuse me of hypocrisy. Honestly, Jim, you should be ashamed, both of your woolly, self-contradictory thinking, and of your own hypocrisy. But I don't expect for a moment that you are. |
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23 Feb 13 - 03:06 PM (#3482967) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: Jim McLean Jesus, Michael, why are you so bitchy? Simply reply if you like but in a decent, sensible and with less personal, patronisiing attacks. I fear for your mental stability and I say this with all honesty and affection. |
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23 Feb 13 - 03:15 PM (#3482969) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: Jim Carroll "that yours are misguided, doctrinaire and patronising towards those whom you claim to represent" Sorry - don't know any other way to interpret this whatever way it's worded - " whose interests you claim to urge" - both are equally inaccurate to the point of dishonesty. I make no "claims" whatsoever; I base my beliefs on my personal experiences, observations, readings and discussion. I spent my entire working life as a manual worker - a domestic electrician - and I will spend the rest of it as a retired manual worker - it doesn't make me right in my beliefs, but it does mean I have had some practical experience to measure those beliefs against. "Hypocrisy" (thank you for the spelling correction) was probably the wrong word - on this occasion anyway - unpleasant (and continuing) dishonesty is much nearer the mark. If I ever claim to "represent" or "urge for" anybody, feel free to put me in my place, but until then, please stop inventing convenient and inaccurate agendas for me in order to win arguments. Now please let this thread continue uninterrupted by our extremely unpleasant bickering. Jim Carroll |
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23 Feb 13 - 03:18 PM (#3482970) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: MGM·Lion Sorry, Jim McL -- can't see what brought that on at all. Jim C has been accusing me of evading his questions, has been confusing cause & effect, and generally, as I see it, muddying the issue. What on earth is so 'bitchy' 'personal' or 'patronising' in pointing out that this is my perception of his arguments? Anyhow, I have no doubt that Jim C would feel well able to fight his own corner, without feeling any need for you to rush to his defence since you seem to consider him incapable of answering for himself. Who is being 'patronising'?, and to whom?, I would beg you to consider. Thank you for your affection, which is reciprocated. But I still can't see where you consider me to have demonstrated any symptoms of mental instability. Regards ~M~ |
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23 Feb 13 - 03:34 PM (#3482978) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: Jim McLean Q.E.D. |
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24 Feb 13 - 12:29 AM (#3483153) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: MGM·Lion Not so at all, I fear. There is more than one way of moving things on to a personal plain when you can't think of any rational responses to arguments adduced, which is what you are, entirely irrationally, accusing me of doing, JMcL. You didn't like the points I made, so you moved on to the personal, quite unjustly dismissing my manner of making them as unkind {'bitchy', 'patronising', 'mentally unstable' yet! ...} to poor little JimC, who, you thus implied [I repeat, who is 'patronising' whom?] would be helpless without you to champion his cause! Not worthy of you, Jim. Surprised and disappointed. 'Jesus!' & 'QED' right back to you. ~M~ |
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24 Feb 13 - 01:58 AM (#3483163) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: MGM·Lion ... and there you are, Jim Carroll: now you have a Fairy Godmother too. Enjoy! ☺〠☺~M~☺〠☺ |
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24 Feb 13 - 04:11 AM (#3483171) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: MGM·Lion ☺〠☺~M~☺〠☺ |
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24 Feb 13 - 11:53 PM (#3483436) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: GUEST,Nikkiwi I suspect you'd have better luck finding Anti-MONARCHY folk songs if you spoke/read french..... |
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25 Feb 13 - 06:51 AM (#3483486) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: GUEST,Fred McCormick MTHEGM. "But Jim, Fred, et al, none of you has really answered my point, which I think I have demonstrated many instances to support:~ that the vast majority of the folk for the vast majority of the time actually liked being ruled by a monarch" Whhhhaaaattttt!!!!!!!!! This crowd of uneducated thickos, sorry, peasants, sorry, feeling sensate human beings actually enjoyed paying rents and tithes and taxes to the richest entity in the land while they pesonally starved. Come off it. You'll be telling me next that they just couldn't wait to be press ganged, flogged and carted, and hauled off to be shot in foreign wars. What a splendid lot of noble unself-serving lot of chaps. A pity the ruers of our land couldn't have followed their example. But that is to miss the point. I hate the monarchy and I will continue to sing anti-monarchist songs. And that is irrespective of whether the latest MtheGM revelation, sorry, opinion, has a shred of historical veracity. What's more, irrespective of whether I'm in a minority or not, I will continue to campaign for the abolition of the monarchy while I have breath to do so. It's called democracy, doncha know. and there's precious little of it around these days. Oh yes, and I note that you very quickly dropped the subject when I corrected your assertion that Alexander Somerville 'only' received 50 lashes of the whip. Yes, I know I got my own account wrong, but that just shows the importance of consulting an unimpeachable source, rather than relying on Wikipedia or memory. In fact, Brian Behan's introduction to the MacGibbon & Kee edition of Somerville's memoirs claims that because Somerville was given 100 lashes of a cat of nine tails, and each tail had 6 strands, he was actually lashed 5,400 times. "Here's a health to King George"? Not for me buddy. |
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25 Feb 13 - 07:44 AM (#3483496) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: GUEST But that is to miss the point. I hate the monarchy and I will continue to sing anti-monarchist songs I thought the point of this thread wasn't "Does Fred hate the monarchy?" - or "are there any anti-monarchist songs for Fred to sing?" - but "are there any traditional anti-monarchist songs?". Despite Steve's passing handwave at the top of the thread, the answer so far seems to be No, or "it depends what you mean by 'anti-monarchist'", or "it depends what you mean by 'traditional', and actually who cares if a song's traditional anyway?" |
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25 Feb 13 - 07:47 AM (#3483498) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: MGM·Lion Whhhhaaattttt!? right back to you, Fred. The Press Gang, the floggings, whevs, continued unabated as before under the Commonwealth,and would have done so whether the monarchy had been restored or not (but it WAS restored, because PEOPLE MISSED IT AND WANTED IT BACK. Why else?) & are part of a completely different discourse from attitudes to the Monarchy-as-such. If you can't distinguish the two discourses, it is your perceptions at fault. Remember the man who had had a right-hand amputated because it who had written a pamphlet which offended Queen Elizabeth waved the bloodied stump & cried a loyal blessing on the Queen. {Regret have forgotten his name tho the story well authenticated - anyone remind me of it?} I think he was as daft as you do; and that his treatment was iniquitous. But he recognised that the law was not made by the Queen herself, who represented a world-view which he shared in general if not in specific detail. "You'll be telling me next that they just couldn't wait to be press ganged ... and hauled off to be shot in foreign wars". Never mind what I'll be telling you: look again at "On Board a 98", the pressed man looking back on his life of service and 'blessing his fate' in having been made to '[do] my duty, serve my King', collected by Vaughan Williams, and see that that tells you:- that, yes, some did. This is not to say that royalty do not have their own contribution to make to the discourse, an are rightly despised if they don't ~~ as I myself despised the present Queen's late sister who wanted all the privileges and respect while doing all she could to prove herself unworthy of them. |
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25 Feb 13 - 07:58 AM (#3483500) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: MGM·Lion ==I hate the monarchy and I will continue to sing anti-monarchist songs== .,,. Meant to add, tho the poster who cross-posted with me above has actually partly made the point, that you can sing all the anti-monarchist songs you like, & I hope you will have a ball doing so (just so long as I don't have to listen): but they won't be in any meaningful sense the "Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs" specified in the thread title, no matter how often and how vociferously you sing them. And do for crying out loud take in the point that your 'hatred' is a view to which you are perfectly entitled, but is not that of the generality of the people. ~M~ |
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25 Feb 13 - 08:07 AM (#3483504) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: GUEST,Fred McCormick Guest. Sorry but I wasn't responsible for the thread drift. MTHEGM. (but it WAS restored, because PEOPLE MISSED IT AND WANTED IT BACK). How do we know? Nobody asked them. |
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25 Feb 13 - 08:45 AM (#3483517) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: MGM·Lion You were responsible for the drift, Fred, by saying that you would go on singing anti-monchst songs because you hated the monarchy, without engaging with the obvious intention of the OP, as to whether there were any folk-songs ~ which the ones you are so determined to go on performing manifestly aren't ~ which expressed the sentiments similar to these of yours. If you object to my statement about what the people wanted, Fred, let's hear you respond with some examples to all the traditional songs and lore I have adduced above which clearly express the generality of the people's satisfaction and comfort with the institution of the monarchy. We know that you hate them, thank you; but now demonstrate that this is, in any sense, a popular or widely-held view. Otherwise I stick to my opinion that yours is an atypical minority position, entirely unworthy of the priggish, holier-than-thou self-satisfaction, entirely misplaced in one who lays claim to democratic views, with which you appear to urge your posture. Now show me different ~~ from tradition or from any other pov. Put up or shut up. ~M~ |
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25 Feb 13 - 09:24 AM (#3483525) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: GUEST,Allan Conn "I am looking for British songs and tunes from all ages which reflect ant-monarchist sentiments." One can argue over what is and isn't a folk song but to be fair the original question, as shown above, wasn't only asking for older or traditional songs. Songs and tunes from all ages were his words! Later on in the thread people questioned whether there were many older songs of that said type. |
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25 Feb 13 - 09:32 AM (#3483528) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: MGM·Lion --How do we know? Nobody asked them...-- .,,. Oh, come on, Fred. Don't pretend to be more stupid than you are with another so completely disingenuous point. All evidence, from broadsides like 'When The King Enjoys His Own Again' to the popularity of the reopening of the theatres and the astonishing flowering of new drama at the Restoration, one of the greatest and most productive periods in English drama, attests to the fact that the Restoration of the Monarchy was pretty nigh universally welcomed with enormous RELIEF, after nearly 20 years of misery under the tyranny of those of the 'we know what is best for everybody' persuasion so admirably summed up in the tone of the posts of the likes of you. Have you ever read an essay by Kingsley Amis called "Why Lucky Jim turned right". I commend it to you ~~ he'd got your number, right enough. ~M~ |
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25 Feb 13 - 09:32 AM (#3483529) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: GUEST,Fred McCormick Sorry M. The thread drifted long before I said that. As regards examples of anti-monarchist traditional songs, I have already explained why there are no great numbers of them.Tell you what. Why don't you read what I said instead of repeating what you think I said? Regarding being a democrat and holding minority opinions, here's a few of the other things I'm opposed to:- Capital punishment Corporal punishment Badger culling Homophobia Benefit cuts Racism Antisemitism Travellerphobia Sexism Immigration quotas Repatriation of ethnic minorities Granted I'm not nowadays in a minority on all these issues. But I certainly was when I began campaigning. Thank God there are some people who are willing to change thir minds. And oh yes. Regarding accepting the will of the majority. Where do you think I would have stood had I been in Germany in the 1930s? With the majority, or against it? Sorry for the continuing thread drift. Can we get back to the topic which opened this thread in the first place? |
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25 Feb 13 - 09:50 AM (#3483533) Subject: RE: Anti-Monarchist Folk Songs From: MGM·Lion As we cross-posted absolutely simultaneously, you might have missed my last post, which I therefore commend again to your attention. Meanwhile, please demonstrate what the existence of a popular — indeed much-loved by many — royal family has in common with badger culling, homophobia, sexism... or indeed, all the items your list of indisputably OK·to·the·fully-paid-up·progressive·agenda with each other. I expect there are people who don't want to cull badgers but would welcome a reduction in immigration, or think that the restoration of some corporal punishment might protect a few old ladies from getting mugged and would rather not have a travellers' camp set up just outside their village, but regard ethnic minorities as welcome within the overall community (THESE ARE ONLY EXAMPLES, NOT NECESSARILY REPRESENTATIVE OF MY OWN VIEWS). So in what way is this list of OK causes embraced by Fred McCormick in any way relevant to the point at issue? My last three posts have been entirely relevant to 'the topic which opened the thread in the first place'. It's yours which haven't, you know. ~M~ |