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What is Rock 'n Roll???

05 Feb 13 - 09:44 AM (#3476039)
Subject: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: Bobert

On another thread someone made the comment that folks like The Coasters and and Lloyd Price weren't rock 'n rollers which kinda got me thinking, "What is rock n' roll?"...

I know that Muddy Waters defined it as the a child of the blues when he wrote the song "The Blues Had a Baby and they Called it Rock 'n Roll"...

Then who was it that sang, "it's all rock 'n roll to me"???

No matter...

So, what is rock 'n roll???

B~


05 Feb 13 - 10:11 AM (#3476049)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: Ron Davies

Hey Bobert, this looks like another black hole of time.   We'll never get agreement on this. But to coin a phrase, it's all just semantics to me.

However, on the burning issue of who sang "It's All Rock...." :    Billy Joel


05 Feb 13 - 10:15 AM (#3476052)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: Bobert

I thought it was Billy Joel...

B~


05 Feb 13 - 10:26 AM (#3476053)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: GUEST

I'll define Rock and Roll wnen someone defines 'Folk'


05 Feb 13 - 10:42 AM (#3476062)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: number 6

Google it ... check out Wikipedia

biLL


05 Feb 13 - 10:47 AM (#3476064)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: Trevor Thomas

Perhaps there are people on Rock 'n' Roll message boards who fiercely debate whether it can only be Rock 'n' Roll if it meets the 1954 definition set down by the International Council of Rock 'n' Roll and listed in the Official Penguin Book of Rock 'n' Roll songs?.


05 Feb 13 - 10:51 AM (#3476067)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: Ron Davies

I think the Council's definition of 1947 is actually far more reliable.


05 Feb 13 - 10:57 AM (#3476070)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: Wesley S

Isn't it just like porn? We can't describe it but we know it when we see it.


05 Feb 13 - 11:05 AM (#3476072)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: GUEST,Mike Rogers

Extract from Talking Dust Bowl Blues (W Guthrie), verse 2:

And I started, rockin' an' a-rolling'
Over the mountains, out towards the old Peach Bowl.

So not only did Woody write the unofficial US national anthem (so much better than the official one), but he invented rock 'n' roll.


05 Feb 13 - 12:23 PM (#3476096)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: number 6

You ask ... what is Rock 'n Roll ??

well

all I can say is you can forget about Laura

for this ... is ROCK 'N ROLL !!

biLL


05 Feb 13 - 12:41 PM (#3476099)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: Les in Chorlton

It cannot be defined by words it is experienced in some strange way between the heart, the groin and the nervous system


05 Feb 13 - 12:55 PM (#3476103)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe

Not Billy fecking Joel, for starters...

So what is rock 'n' roll? This!. Turn it up!


05 Feb 13 - 02:56 PM (#3476141)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: GUEST

The trouble is that many of these bands were included under the Rock'n'Roll banner but had been going since before the term gained popularity. I mean, Fats Domino was recording in the 1940's, even Count Basie was included on Alan Freed Rock parties.

Rock'n'Roll was never a musical form, it was a marketing tag.


05 Feb 13 - 03:02 PM (#3476143)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: Ron Davies

(Sob) I'll never forget about Laura.


05 Feb 13 - 03:13 PM (#3476145)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: Steve Gardham

A chorus in sea chanties!


05 Feb 13 - 05:01 PM (#3476183)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: GUEST,DDT

Rock and roll was a new way of saying "rhythm & blues" because a lot of white kids couldn't buy R&B records because their parents didn't want this jigaboo music in the house. So Freed just redubbed R&B under a new moniker.

The term itself is rather older than Freed's Moondog show. Hell, Betty Grable was already known as "The First Lady of Rock and Roll" and the Boswell Sisters did a song called "Rock and Roll" back in the thirties. Wild Bill Moore already had a big hit called "We're Gonna Rock, We're Gonna Roll" in the post-war forties.

To me, the first real rock and roll was Elvis or whoever was the first to record blues combined with hillbilly because that was something new--rockabilly. Doo-wop was a type of R&B that blacks sang that descended from what they sang in church. Whites picked up on it. Gene Vincent was the first that I know of to really combine rockabilly with doo-wop. So it evolved quickly through the 50s and culminated with Eddie Cochran's "Somethin' Else" that was a totally new style. It wasn't rockabilly but had a hard-driving beat. His girlfriend, Sharon Sheely ("Poor Little Fool"), arranged it that way because she got the idea from listening to Little Richard. The drummer for Richard was Earl Palmer (who also played on nearly all the Fats Domino records including his earliest in 1949). Palmer played the beat for Eddie who realized what Sheely was aiming for. Eddie overdubbed himself on bass guitar and guitar with Earl on drums and that's how the song got made. It prefigured hard rock just a few years down the road.

Eddie's nephew, Bobby Cochran, was inspired by his uncle to take up guitar and wound up playing for Steppenwolf and the Flying Burrito Brothers (he's not the co-author of "Somethin' Else", that Bobby Cochran was Eddie's older brother).

So rock and roll was a term that hung on an ever-evolving music so that 10 years after that, the music was unrecognizable and changed again in another 10 years.


05 Feb 13 - 05:18 PM (#3476195)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: pdq

Bobert...

Where did someone say the Lloyd Price isn't Rock 'n' Roll?

I have heard people who claim this his 1952 original "Lawdy Miss Clawdy" is the first real RR song. He also wrote it.

There is no real clear line between the two cetegories, but it was eventually given its own outlet on Top 40 format of AM radio stations aiming at the youth market.

Pop stations continued with folks like Sinatra, Patty Page, Nancy Wilson and other more establishment acts.


05 Feb 13 - 05:21 PM (#3476197)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: Ebbie

I think of rock n roll as soft rock, as opposed to the metallic hard driving sound of rock itself.

Tunes like 'Raunchy' and songs like most of Elvis's hits to me will always be rock n roll.


05 Feb 13 - 05:28 PM (#3476201)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: GUEST,Shimrod

Rock n Roll is a form of parasitical, semi-organised noise which has largely replaced music.


05 Feb 13 - 06:40 PM (#3476220)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: GUEST,DDT

Bob Wills rockin' and rollin'

The sound isn't that great here. I first heard this when I bought the Country Music Hall of Fame Series CD many moons ago. I think it's from '57 or so.


05 Feb 13 - 07:56 PM (#3476249)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: Joe_F

Yelling & banging, for sale to children who are too lazy to throw their own tantrums.


05 Feb 13 - 10:29 PM (#3476298)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: Beer

What is "R & R"
It's great musice, just like Folk, Jazz,Blues, Hip Hop, Opera and all other forms.
Adrien


05 Feb 13 - 10:47 PM (#3476301)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: bobad

From Wikipedia:

"Rocket 88" (originally written as Rocket "88") is a rhythm and blues song that was first recorded at Sam Phillips' recording studio in Memphis, Tennessee, on 3 March or 5 March 1951 (accounts differ). The recording was credited to Jackie Brenston and his Delta Cats, who were actually Ike Turner's Kings of Rhythm. It has been claimed by Phillips and some music critics to be the "first rock and roll song".

Rocket "88"


05 Feb 13 - 11:34 PM (#3476308)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: GUEST,DDT

Rocket 88 was taken from pianist Pete Johnson's Rocket 88 Boogie or some such title. Pete was partners with the Boss of the Blues, Big Joe Turner. In 1938, they recorded a boogie-woogie blues on Vocalion called Roll Em Pete which many consider to be the earliest rock and roll song. In fact, they recut it in the 50s and re-released it because it fit so well with other rock and roll records. Joe and Pete made some of the greatest rock and roll EVER including:

Shake, Rattle and Roll
Boogie-Woogie Country Girl
Bump Miss Susie
The Chicken and the Hawk
Piney Brown's Blues
Crawdad Hole
Flip, Flop and Fly
TV Mama
Oke-She-Moke-She-Pop
Sweet Sixteen
Well All Right
Chains of Love
Little Bitty Gal's Blues
Cherry Red
Miss Brown Blues
Tell Me Pretty Baby
Sally Zu-zazz
I Got a Gal for Every Day of the Week


06 Feb 13 - 12:19 AM (#3476313)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: Ron Davies

"Yelling and banging...."    I love it.   Joe, you are hereby crowned the current #1 resident curmudgeon.   I trust none of the other contenders will object--there are some other good entries, but yours sets an extremely high standard I don't think the others have quite met.


06 Feb 13 - 03:57 AM (#3476335)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: Les in Chorlton

I cannot believe so many people can write so knowledgeably, with out mention of, to quote myself above:

"It cannot be defined by words it is experienced in some strange way between the heart, the groin and the nervous system "


06 Feb 13 - 07:32 AM (#3476374)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: Charley Noble

The phrase "rock 'n roll" has been around since at least the 1860s, as documented in traditional sea shanties such as "One More Day":

Oh, rock 'n roll me over, one more day!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


06 Feb 13 - 07:35 AM (#3476376)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: Mr Red

Rock 'n Rol?

It is LOUD


06 Feb 13 - 07:42 AM (#3476383)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: Les in Chorlton

It's ok Mr Red I think we are trying to commune with the musically deaf here


06 Feb 13 - 08:26 AM (#3476394)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: Mr Happy

A quote from above I believe is the reason for the labelling/ categorisation of all music


Rock'n'Roll was never a musical form, it was a marketing tag


06 Feb 13 - 09:13 AM (#3476403)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: Les in Chorlton

You can say what you like about marketing tags and the history of music, but when Little Richard, Chuck Berry and the others did what they did as major creators of R & R they were speaking in some strange way to the heart, the groin and the nervous system.

Know this of R & R or know nothing

Best wishes


06 Feb 13 - 12:22 PM (#3476453)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: Mooh

Evolution.

Rocket 88 ain't Chuck Berry, The Stones, Zeppelin, Springsteen, Rush, RHCP...maybe they're all the same or maybe they're not, but they're all R'n'R to my mind. It doesn't have to be one thing so much as many things, a catchall of style. The limits set only by the listeners evolving tastes. Any way I can imagine it, R'n'R overlaps with several other styles, including the ones that gave it birth, the ones it spawned, and the ones it gets combined with by well-intentioned musicians.

Were we all done discussing what is folk?

Peace, Mooh.


06 Feb 13 - 05:07 PM (#3476517)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: Joe_F

Ron Davies: I am delighted to have my curmudgeoneity recognized.


06 Feb 13 - 05:57 PM (#3476531)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: Stringsinger

Rock and roll is a euphenism, just like jass (jazz) for sexual activity as in my baby rocks me all night long. It's an attempt on the part of white music business people to market rhythm and blues to white people getting it out of the "race" record trap.

That's what Sam Phillips tried to do with Sunn Records and Presley.

It's roots are in rhythm and blues and the dancing that goes with it. The style of playing even goes back to Illinois Jacquet in the famous Norman Granz "Jazz Concerts At The Philharmonic" when tenor sax players became honkers (one note honkers) and they went through gyrations onstage and the audience went wild.

Big Jay McNeeley was a forerunner of the honking sax lying on the floor undulating while playing.

The blues played in clubs for black people in South Side Chicago featured a high-powered screaming style that was accompanied by dancing featuring artists like
Albino Red and Muddy Waters on electric guitar.

Much of it has roots in the African-American Gospel tradition. "Motown" was a secular gospel style.

Rock and Roll is just an offshoot of the African-American tradition of dance music that goes back to early jazz.


07 Feb 13 - 09:38 AM (#3476754)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: erosconpollo

Morgan Wright defined the difference between Rock and other forms of R and B as being in the underlying rhythm: "While being eight to the bar, there is a slight lag between the bars. The pause between the bars builds up tension---the first beat of the new bar is held back, whereupon the 2nd beat of each bar is slammed with extra force, thus making it rock."

This makes Rock and Roll edgier than the bouncy sound of something like Fats Domino's Jump Blues style, which come down hard on the 'one.'


07 Feb 13 - 10:09 AM (#3476758)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: Will Fly

If you have to ask, you don't deserve to know.


07 Feb 13 - 10:12 AM (#3476759)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: GUEST,leeneia

rock 'n' roll was for kids. It was friendly. It had a good beat, and the chords were easy. Things that were supposed to rhyme actually did rhyme, and the lyrics made sense. (Common sense might not be involved, however. Witness Laura.)

The two greatest rock 'n' rolls songs ever were "Let's go to the Hop" and "Barbara Ann."


07 Feb 13 - 10:17 AM (#3476761)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: meself

"the first beat of the new bar is held back, whereupon the 2nd beat of each bar is slammed with extra force, thus making it rock."

Not sure I buy that - can you give an example of a song or two in which that is apparent?


07 Feb 13 - 10:58 AM (#3476777)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: Ron Davies

Don't forget :"Rock and Roll Will Never Die".


I was delighted beyond measure a few years ago to hear all the lyrics--finally.

My favorite bit by far:


Rock and roll is here to stay
It will never die
It was meant to be that way
Though I don't know why


And that is in fact what they sing.


07 Feb 13 - 02:17 PM (#3476811)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: PHJim

I think of folks like Elvis, Buddy Holly, Chuck Berry, Little Richard, Jerry Lee Lewis, Fats Domino... folks of that era,the fifties, when I think of Rock'N'Roll. By the time The Velvet Underground, Led Zep, Metallica and the like came along, it was no longer called Rock'N'Roll, but just Rock.


07 Feb 13 - 04:34 PM (#3476845)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: GUEST,Tunesmith

Mr Red said about rock'n'roll:

"It is LOUD!"

Well, loud compared to what!

Elvis, Buddy Holly, Jerry Lee back in the 50s wouldn't really have been that loud.
Indeed, any local pub rock band today would be a lot louder than 50s rock'n'roll.

"Loud" didn't really happen until Hendrix, Clapton and friends started using stacks of Marshall amps.


07 Feb 13 - 05:41 PM (#3476866)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: GUEST,leeneia

I agree. We used to dance to this music in the grade-school cafeteria. No way did the teachers let it get too loud.

When I was kid, I didn't even like rock and roll. Not till Freddie and the Doo-wops came along did I appreciate the fun to be had from rock 'n' roll. What's the difference? Better singing, better musicianship and a sense of humor.

Here they are doing 'Runaround Sue'.


Freddy

Sad to say, Freddy (an ex-marine and a Republican) died unexpectedly. We miss him.


07 Feb 13 - 06:10 PM (#3476875)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: Ron Davies

Absolutely, Leenia.   Doo-wop, in particular, is just great fun.   And you don't even really need a band--just some people who know how the parts went so you can have independent voices.   --not just everybody singing lead.

Here in the DC area (perhaps over some opposition) we have declared doo-wop to be folk (is it rock?   who cares?) such that there are regular doo-wop sings listed in the FSGW newsletter.   A few weeks ago we had a sing at my house.   I said we could get a limit of 25 into the room but they kept coming--we had over 30 and the room was about to explode. Sang about 2 1/2 hours, then the hard-core sang another 1 1/2 hours. The vast majority was a cappella (we had one guitar) and quite a few of us had a big bunch of songs memorized (there were some packets) -just have to drag it out of your brain again.


07 Feb 13 - 08:51 PM (#3476905)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: GUEST,DDT

Nolan Strong & the Diablos forever.


07 Feb 13 - 08:55 PM (#3476906)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: Beer

Well said PHJim.
Ad.


07 Feb 13 - 09:26 PM (#3476911)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: Bobert

Yo, Ron Davies...

Do you remember a smallish albino African American who played rock 'n roll in DC in the early 60s... I think his first name was "Pinky"...

I saw him at the Hayloft back then....

B~


07 Feb 13 - 11:56 PM (#3476948)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: GUEST,leeneia

Hello, Ron. Thanks for the description of a great party. That sure sounds like fun.


08 Feb 13 - 07:51 AM (#3477060)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: Charley Noble

As a geology student in the 1960s, I and my friends discussed the origin of "rock an' roll" in exhaustive fashion. We concluded that it could be traced back to the glacial period when massive ice sheets expanded and retreated over North America, remolding the landscape, leaving their signature marks as kettles and kanes, and glacial moraines.

Cheerily,
Charley "Hard Rock" Noble


08 Feb 13 - 08:40 AM (#3477088)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: Ron Davies

Hi Leeneia-

Yes, it sure was.   But anybody can do it. Just get a bunch of friends who like to sing doo-wop--and are strong enough singers to carry independent voices. You actually only need about 3 or 4 such singers--the rest can just join in , or make up parts. We also started with a potluck supper--fuel for the journey.    And we weren't rigid on definition of doo-wop--just sang songs we felt like singing---Chapel of Love, You Belong To My, Only You, Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow, Charlie Brown, etc. --in addition to doo-wop standards (Earth Angel, Silhouettes, Who Put the Bomp?, Goodnight, Sweetheart) some Everly Brothers (those are really to make up harmonies to), etc.. etc.   (lots of etc).

And you can teach people how some of the lines went--to encourage separate voices.


If you need refreshing on the songs, you can buy the huge majority of them on i-Tunes for 99 cents apiece---or less if there's an album you want.    I just make up my own CD's and listen to them a few times before we have a session.   And I sing them just walking down the street--no i-Pod involved--to see if I have them memorized.


08 Feb 13 - 08:46 AM (#3477089)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: Ron Davies

Hey Bobert--

"early 60's?"    I was about minus 5 at that point.   (Not really, but I sure wasn't getting into DC.    Sure couldn't drive.)


08 Feb 13 - 08:47 AM (#3477091)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: Ron Davies

"really easy to make up harmonies to"


10 Feb 13 - 12:28 PM (#3477919)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: pdq

Everyone has a slightly different opinion about what constitutes the Rock 'n' Roll Era, but many date it from the release of "Rock Around the Clock" in 1954.

It probably ended the night the Beatles first played on the Ed Sullivan Show.

Not every artist with a hit record during that time played RR.

Nor was every song by a Rock 'n' Roller was RR.


10 Feb 13 - 01:04 PM (#3477933)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: GUEST,DDT

I would date the start of rocknroll to be 1952 with Johnny Ace. Although it was R&B he was doing, rocknroll began to be a culture about that time because Johnny was popular with the white kids as well as the black kids. So some white girl would call the local station and dedicate a Johnny Ace tune like "Never Let Me Go" or something to some dreamy boy at her school and they would dance to his more frenetic numbers like "Don't You Know" at the drugstore after school. It was the start of rocknroll as a culture.

As a music, it started in 1954 with Elvis although Bill Haley also deserves credit.


10 Feb 13 - 01:09 PM (#3477937)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: Bobert

That's funny... I never thought of Bill Haley as too rocky... I mean, there were blues players out there laying down rock 'n roll way back into the 40's and early 50's...

One guy, Dan Pickett, a white blues player from the late 40's was ten times rockier than Bill Haley and the Comets...

Elvis??? Yeah, but he was doing old blues when he came on the scene... "Hound Dog" was old blues... "Mystery Train"... Old blues... I mean, them songs rocked out pretty good for their time...

B~


10 Feb 13 - 01:25 PM (#3477944)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: pdq

If I were to say what my choice for the first RR song, I would suggest "Move It On Over" by Hank Williams, 1947.

Bill Haley's song is more/less a concensus pick.


10 Feb 13 - 03:16 PM (#3477982)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: GUEST,DDT

Bill Haley was the first white man to openly perform black music. That's what rocknroll is--a mixture of white and black styles into one. He was hooked into the people that were bringing it about. "Rock Around the Clock" was produced by Milt Gabler who was one of the authors of Louis Jordan's "Choo-Choo-Cha-Boogie" which many believe to be the start of jump blues--the immediate precursor of rocknroll (Freed actually WAS calling it rocknroll because that is the stuff he played on his Moondog program which I have recordings of).

People back then weren't aware that "Choo-Choo-Cha-Boogie" was actually written by three white men. Hillbilly songwriters at that. Sam Phillips took credit as being the first producer to recognize the necessity of finding a white man to sing black music but that's really not true. Johnny Mercer was doing that back when he founded Capitol Records in '42. "Rock Around the Clock" IS rocknroll. And all the people I know who were alive back then tell me that the first rocknroll they ever heard was Bill Haley.

Elvis may have did old blues but I don't know why that doesn't qualify as doing the first true rocknroll. He did those songs with a country twang and that was a totally new sound. He also jacked up "Blue Moon of Kentucky" and even Bill Munroe admitted he liked it. I consider that rocknroll--the melding of black and white styles into a new hybrid that took on a life of its own.

Anyone who thinks blues is separate from rocknroll must have never heard of George Thorogood, Stevie Ray Vaughan, ZZ Topp or Jimi Hendrix. All blues artists immensely popular in the rock world and perhaps the last decent acts America has turned out. Without blues, there would probably never have been a British rock scene--the Animals, the Yardbirds, the Stones, Zeppelin, Savoy Brown, Jethro Tull, Black Sabbath, Foghat, Fleetwood Mac, etc. All blues bands. I have old radio ads for record stores in the 50s advertising to kids all their latest rocknroll favorites and one of the songs he mentioned was "You Upsets Me Baby" by B.B. King. Much of rocknroll IS blues. Every rock band had a few blues songs in their repertoires.


10 Feb 13 - 05:07 PM (#3478018)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: GUEST,Stim

Submitted for your consideration, from Helen Humes Be Baba Leba-1945


10 Feb 13 - 05:08 PM (#3478019)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: Bobert

Beg to differ with ya, DDT...

Dan Pickett beat him to it...

B~


10 Feb 13 - 05:36 PM (#3478026)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: GUEST,Stim

And, DDT, "Bill Haley was the first white man to openly perform black music." is just completely, absolutely, and totally wrong.


10 Feb 13 - 06:55 PM (#3478047)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: pdq

Lotsa kinds of music went into Rock 'n' Roll. Western Swing, Boogie Woogie, Bluegrass, Rhythm 'n' Blues, Blues, and yes, Country.

I have a few cuts of guitar great Charlie Gracie doing Boogie Woogie in 1951.

Bill Haley did Western Swing from about 1948-1952, but did some Boogie Woogie stuff too.

Carl Perkins did tough club dates playing an electric guitar and doing dance music between 1951 and 1954. Even did "Rose of Old Kentucky" as a dance number before Elvis did.

The Post War period from 1945-54 is a real mystery to most folks, at least it is now.


10 Feb 13 - 09:09 PM (#3478089)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: GUEST,DDT

You can always find some white guy before Haley that you can claim was doing black music. Hell, we can go all the way back to the ragtime era and minstrelsy before that but every single person I know who was alive at that period says Bill Haley was the first rocknroll they heard--even before Elvis. "Crazy Man Crazy" and "Rock Around the Clock" were the songs everyone remembers. None of them remembers a white man doing anything like that before then.


11 Feb 13 - 12:35 PM (#3478255)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: pdq

In response to this thread, I've ordered three CDs from the 50s RR Era and read at least 40 articles on the subject.

The old WWW is amazing.

Only thread right now that's any fun.


11 Feb 13 - 01:28 PM (#3478290)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: GUEST,Stim

Then your friends hadn't heard She Won't Be My Baby No More-Carlisle Brothers 1946, or the Delmore Brothers.

Bill Haley and company were about the first white rock'n'roll to become teen idols-but that isn't the same as being the first to play the music.

PDQ(and anyone else who is having fun with this)--if you don't have it already, download "Spotify", and register (it's free)--it's an online jukebox program which allows you to listen to songs, albums, and playlists from others. Then search for "Dave Bartholomew" or "The Treniers" or "Amos Milburn" or "Big Jay McNealy", and rock til you drop.


11 Feb 13 - 02:22 PM (#3478325)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: GUEST,DDT

No. They never heard of those nor of Harry tHipster Gibson but I habe all stuff and much more.


11 Feb 13 - 02:49 PM (#3478329)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: GUEST,Stim

Haven't thought about Harry the Hipster in a while...


11 Feb 13 - 05:32 PM (#3478404)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: GUEST,DDT

A pretty good CD set is "The Roots of Rock N Roll--1946-1954". I bought it at a record store that stocks everything but since stores like that are disappearing, you can order it off Amazon:

http://www.amazon.com/Roots-Rock-N-Roll-1946-1954/dp/B0001XAQVY

It's a good crash course in learning about the pioneers--Roy Milton, the Delmore Bros., Sticks McGhee, Sister Rosetta Tharpe, Wynonie Harris, Paul "Hucklebuck" Williams, Wild Bill Moore, The Ravens, Jimmy and Joe Liggins, Peppermint Harris, Tiny Bradshaw, Ruth Brown, Howlin' Wolf, Billy Ward & the Dominoes, the Clovers, Big Mama Thornton, Hank Ballard, Amos Milburn, Little Junior, The Orioles, Little Willie Littlefield, Faye Adams, Guitar Slim, The Chords, The 5 Royales, etc.

Try to find Todd Rhodes' "Blues for the Red Boy" from '49 which was the theme for Freed's Moondog radio show. Another is Nolan Strong & the Diablos doing "The Wind" from 1954 (Laura Nyro covered it rather nicely). I have a CD of old instrumentals that has Bill Doggett's "Honky Tonk" from '56 and Johnny "Guitar" Watson's "Space Guitar" from '54. Janis Martin's "Barefoot Baby." Jack Scott's "LeRoy" and "The Way I Walk". These are all essential rock and roll documents. Must-haves.


11 Feb 13 - 05:47 PM (#3478413)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: Ron Davies

That list in the CD set is quite interesting.    I can see most of the names.   But the Delmore Brothers as rock pioneers?    I really like the Delmore Brothers--sing some of their songs-- but I'd put them solidly in country or bluegrass.    Where do you think the rock connection is?

I'd think a stronger case could be made for Bob Wills, in fact--as far as rock antecedents.


11 Feb 13 - 05:58 PM (#3478415)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: gnu

It's only rock 'n roll but I like it. The Stones? Not so much.


11 Feb 13 - 06:13 PM (#3478424)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: GUEST,DDT

The comp also has Hank's "Move It On Over." I have a Capitol comp that has Rose Maddox's version of the song. It also has Skeets McDonald doing rockabilly with Eddie Cochran on lead guitar.

I already provided a Bob Wills rocknroll link earlier in the thread. I'm a Wills fanatic. I think I have pretty much everything he's ever recorded.


11 Feb 13 - 06:19 PM (#3478428)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: GUEST,DDT

Btw, one of my contacts who was about 10 when the rocknroll craze hit in the early 50s said that before there were real rocknroll stations, you had to tune into country stations to hear rocknroll. And let's remember Eddie Cochran and Gene Vincent were actually country artists before rockabilly hit. So was Bill Haley who, interestingly enough, came from the same town as Jackie Wilson--the lead singer of Billy Ward & the Dominoes (whose "60 Minute Man" some believe actually provided Freed with the idea of calling R&B by the moniker of rock and roll).

When I asked my contact if he never turned into R&B stations, he replied that where he lived at that time, there were no R&B stations. You tuned into country stations to hear rocknroll.


11 Feb 13 - 06:36 PM (#3478434)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: Ron Davies

My question is about the Delmore Brothers.


11 Feb 13 - 07:15 PM (#3478444)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: pdq

Post War Delmore Brothers output is almost all Boogie Woogie, often with a hot electric guitar break.

The guitar is sometimes Kenneth "Jethro" Burns.

I have lobbied for more discussion of the Boogie Woogie craze as it relates to Rock 'n' Roll earlier in the thread.

There is an amazing box set with 15 CDs and 300 songs called the Boogie Box. Amos Milburn, Arthur "Guitar Boogie" Smith, Louis Jordan, Ivory Joe Hunter, Hawkshaw Hawkins, John Lee Hooker, Big Joe Turner, Charlie Gracie, Bill Haley and even Nate Cole. Fun stuff.


11 Feb 13 - 08:25 PM (#3478458)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: GUEST,DDT

"Freight Train Boogie" is certainly a rocknroll forerunner. The vocal melody is similar Wills's "Ida Red" which was liberally borrowed by Chuck Berry for his "Maybelline". The guitar breaks are pretty much standard blues shuffles. The harmonica line was borrowed and sped up for the intro to Blackfoot's early 80s hit "Train, Train" (which also relied heavily on "Mystery Train" by Little Junior (Parker)).

So, yeah, the Delmore Bros are definitely one of the roots of rocknroll.


11 Feb 13 - 09:28 PM (#3478473)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: Ron Davies

Excellent. Thanks for the information.


17 Feb 13 - 08:58 PM (#3480882)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: pdq

I was doing a little more research on the Boogie Woogie craze, especially the Hillbilly Boogie angle, and I noticed something about a major player.

Porky Freeman, who designed and patented his own electric pickup, around 1940, before Leo Fender, is still with us. His lead guitar licks still sound fresh today.

He is 96 and let's his health is good.


17 Feb 13 - 09:07 PM (#3480889)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: GUEST,999

DDT: You've seen this?


17 Feb 13 - 09:08 PM (#3480891)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: GUEST,999

Might help if I put the link:

http://www.bobwills.com/


18 Feb 13 - 05:39 PM (#3481190)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: Stringsinger

Rock and Roll is a recording and marketing designation to sell a music to a certain demographic. Sam Phillips sort of started it by producing Black music to sell to whites. Rhythm and Blues and Race Records (an unfortunate appellation) was the foundation for what we call rock and roll. It's also a euphemism like Jass for intercourse.

The most important thing about styles of music is that they are like people, they invariably cross over. There is no pure rock and roll or folk music or jazz.

What can be said for "rock and roll" is that it stems from an African-American experience, using music for dancing and movement and has a visceral connection to the body.

Rock implies body movement unlike say so-called "classical music" or intellectualized jazz although the notion of "swing" requires a body-dance connection in jazz.


18 Feb 13 - 09:52 PM (#3481274)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: GUEST,DDT

Oldest known recording containing the some variation of "rock and roll" from 1916:

Little Wonder - Camp Meeting Jubilee

999: Thanks for the link. Did not hear about that before.


28 Apr 13 - 07:04 PM (#3510053)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: pdq

When this thread was "up and running", one of the pioneers was still with us, Sid "Hardrock" Gunter.

He used the term "rock and roll" in the context of dancing and not as a slang term for sex.

That was 1950, before Alan Freed came along.

The guy was a great guitar player, band leader, comic and storyteller.

He passed away on March 15, 2103 he passed away due to pneumonia at the age of 88.

                                                                                                      Hardrock Gunter


28 Apr 13 - 07:25 PM (#3510063)
Subject: RE: What is Rock 'n Roll???
From: gnu

What is music?