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17 Apr 13 - 06:36 AM (#3504685) Subject: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral From: greg stephens Of the many things about this funeral I don't like, the use of the hymn "To be a pilgrim" stands out. The fabulous words of the very radical and persecuted-by-authority John Bunyan, the lovely English folk tune, rejigged and arranged by the very populist artistic-power-to-the-people Ralph Vaughan Williams: what right have this woman and her running jackals got to hijack such a fabulous slice of our culture? |
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17 Apr 13 - 06:41 AM (#3504689) Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral From: GUEST Ah, yes. Silence your enemies. None of that freedom of speech stuff for people we don't like. Must resist urge to Godwin thread in first reply. |
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17 Apr 13 - 07:23 AM (#3504707) Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral From: Dave Hanson Yes and don't hide behind anonimity, like cowardly so called guests do, oh sorry Greg you didn't. Dave H |
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17 Apr 13 - 08:00 AM (#3504717) Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral From: GUEST It doesn't really take much bravery to parrot hatred to a baying crowd. Struggling to see the relevance here. |
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17 Apr 13 - 08:32 AM (#3504731) Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral From: Manitas_at_home It isn't hijacked, it's used. It can still be used by anyone else. |
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17 Apr 13 - 09:34 AM (#3504761) Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral From: Johnny J Can we not allow the woman to rest in peace now? By all means, let's try to change things for the better but we shouldn't carry on blaming her for the mess we're in now. |
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17 Apr 13 - 10:53 AM (#3504809) Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral From: MGM·Lion "It isn't hijacked, it's used" .,,. Ah, but is shouldn't be, should it, Manitas? ~~ not according to such as Greg, who seems to imagine that only those on his 'approved' list of right-thinking persons may be suffered to make use of anything on his 'approved' list of things, i.e. those which he regards as in some way sacrosanct & so sedulously reserved for the use solely of those who think as he does. Perhaps he might come clean as to his criteria for inclusion on either of these lists. I should hate anything to be used at my funeral the very thought of which might give the poor dear fellow a fit of the coniptions! ~M~ |
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17 Apr 13 - 10:57 AM (#3504811) Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral From: GUEST,Mike Rogers Over the last few days I've read and heard a great deal of garbage, mainly from Thatcher supporters, but the award for the biggest pile of dross must go to the originator of this thread. |
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17 Apr 13 - 12:04 PM (#3504853) Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral From: GUEST,Henry Piper of Ottery. I did not support Thatcher, and did not and do not approve of many of her policies when in power, but she apparently chose the hymns to be played at her funeral as she has the absolute right to do, wether this be a private family affair, or a moreformal state provided one. |
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17 Apr 13 - 12:07 PM (#3504857) Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral From: Q (Frank Staplin) Margaret Thatcher was a pilgrim, doing her best to modernize Britain by closing down the obsolete coal mines and encouraging new business, approving return of Hong Hong to China, and forming adjustments to the developing EU and globalization. The hymn is apt. |
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17 Apr 13 - 12:31 PM (#3504870) Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral From: GUEST,Eliza As I see it, the hymn expresses pilgrimage, along the Christian path, towards the Life we shall inherit. It is perfectly apt for the funeral of anyone who has tried to live their spiritual life with faith in the hereafter. How absurd to criticise a choice of hymn by a person for their own funeral! What do you propose? An exam (set by you) to verify their fitness to qualify for the singing of each hymn in the service? What cheek! |
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17 Apr 13 - 01:22 PM (#3504890) Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral From: Marc Bernier "modernize Britain by closing down the obsolete coal mines" So for 30 years I/v heard "She crushed the Unions and shut down the Mines". Are you suggesting there was a shread of credibility in her policies? |
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17 Apr 13 - 01:33 PM (#3504894) Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral From: Bonzo3legs Here come the lefties again. I shall enjoy watching part of the funeral over dinner shortly. I gather there were some idiots protesting. |
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17 Apr 13 - 02:12 PM (#3504907) Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral From: GUEST,Eliza What I didn't like was hearing that some people were throwing missiles at the horses pulling the gun-carriage on Ludgate Hill. How cruel, what had they got against the horses?? |
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17 Apr 13 - 02:50 PM (#3504930) Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral From: Tattie Bogle Greg, I would bet that Maggie learned that hymn at school just as I did in primary school over a half century ago, grew to love it as it was, RVW version and all. It was YEARS later before I found its true origins: I can appreciate it now in ALL of its versions. (This is not to say that I'm a Thatcherite, far from it, but I'd defend her right to choose, whatever extra meanings anyone wants to attach to it). I liked her choice of music generally, especially the Welsh tune (Hyfrydol)for "Love Divine", which we also sang at school and had at our wedding, but is now lesser known, and LD is usually sung to a very boring plonky tune by John Stainer (oh dear, did I really say that?) And I could quote other examples of songs that are frowned upon by purists as they were not the originals, and in some cases became better known than the originals. |
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17 Apr 13 - 03:47 PM (#3504956) Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral From: MGM·Lion Whatever one thinks of the lady, it really does appear that her Christian faith meant a great deal to her. It seems rather odd that someone should appear to grudge her and her family the comforts and consolations of her Faith. ~M~ |
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17 Apr 13 - 03:53 PM (#3504961) Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral From: GUEST a fabulous slice of our culture I think you'll find it was her culture too. Or is cultural heritage confined to 'people I like' What road is this? |
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17 Apr 13 - 04:03 PM (#3504969) Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral From: Haruo I suppose the real question is, does John Bunyan approve of this use of his text (or was it Percy Dearmer's text?), and if I remember to, I'll ask him next time I see him. |
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17 Apr 13 - 04:24 PM (#3504980) Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral From: Allan Conn "Are you suggesting there was a shread of credibility in her policies?" She was not to be trusted either. The former Prime Minister Lord Home urged Scottish voters to vote NO in the 1979 devolution referendum because the form of devolution did not go far enough especially in regard to tax raising powers and promised that the Tories would introduce a better devolution bill. Despite the majority of votes being YES it failed to get past the minimum votes required so the YES campaign lost. Shortly afterwards the Tory 1979 election manifesto stated "We are committed to discussions about the future government of Scotland". Then as soon as they gained power the idea was completely dropped. Then despite being only the second party in Scotland with only 31% of the vote (a whole 10% behind Labour) they chose to completely ignore Scottish opinion. The Scottish Secretary's traditional role of being Scotland's man in the Cabinet was turned into the Cabinet's man in Scotland. So from the promise of devolution and bringing democracy closer they turned to something more akin to colonialism. |
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17 Apr 13 - 04:30 PM (#3504982) Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral From: GUEST,jim bainbridge She's believed to be carrying on her life's work even after death- word is she's closed two furnaces down already |
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17 Apr 13 - 05:46 PM (#3505013) Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe Whilst politically she was a complete and utter arse-parting on so many levels and whilst sadly her rancid legacy lives on, she can chose whatever hymns she wants for her funeral. I just resent paying for the bastard thing. |
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18 Apr 13 - 03:29 AM (#3505155) Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral From: Nigel Parsons Tattie Bogle: I liked her choice of music generally, especially the Welsh tune (Hyfrydol)for "Love Divine", which we also sang at school and had at our wedding, but is now lesser known, and LD is usually sung to a very boring plonky tune by John Stainer (oh dear, did I really say that?) According to The Order of Service the tune was Blaenwern. Here in S.Wales I would expect Blaenwern. In my experience Hyfrydol is better suited to "Allelluia Sing to Jesus" Cheers Nigel |
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18 Apr 13 - 04:18 AM (#3505166) Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral From: Tattie Bogle Sorry, my mistake! Well corrected, Nigel! |
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18 Apr 13 - 04:39 AM (#3505170) Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral From: alanabit I think Greg may have overstated his case this time around. He has pointed out the situational irony of a song/tune being used, which originated among people who would have had little time for Mrs. Thatcher. Most Americans here will be aware of the way that Woody Guthrie's "This Land Is Your Land", originally a Marxist parody of "God Blessed America", has sometimes been adopted by those whom Guthrie opposed. The most ludicrous example was probably Bing Crosby's version, which omitted two of the most important verses. You won't find many kind remarks about the late Mrs. Thatcher's policies from me either here or anywhere else. On the subject of her passing and funeral, I can live with the fact that there were those who admired her. I am not grieving, but those who loved the octogenarian widow will wish to bury their friend. I am not able to summon up any spite towards her now. The policies are a different matter. On that issue I am with Greg all the way. |
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18 Apr 13 - 05:28 AM (#3505188) Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral From: banjoman Its all over now so why prolong the agony. I vehemently opposed her policies and still oppose those of her successors but think its time to let her rest in (peace?) The choice of hymns is not something to argue about. Far more important to ask questions of this governments attack on the poorest and weakest in our (Big) society. |
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18 Apr 13 - 05:49 AM (#3505199) Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral From: greg stephens In a discussion in Another Place on this very subject(left wing hymns used by rightwing politicos) something else was pointed out that I didn't know: that Holst(composer of "I vow to the my country") was a life-long socialist. In view of the intemperate tone of many of the contributors to this thread, let me make clear that of course people can choos whatever hymns they like for their funerals. But equally well, if a song is used on a political occasion it is legitimate to point out the irony if the song originally had an entirely opposite political purpose. |
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18 Apr 13 - 07:35 AM (#3505229) Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral From: Howard Jones Margaret Thatcher was a radical who refused to accept the conventional wisdom and went against the traditions of her own party. She was a non-conformist in religion and politics, and believed strongly in duty and service. Whether or not you agree with her policies, she applied them with conviction and a sense of moral purpose. "To be a Pilgrim" seems in many ways to sum up her attitudes. I was also surprised to read on Facebook that "I Vow to Thee My Country" is considered a socialist anthem. It seems to me to be about the sort of nationalist patriotism that the left usually deplores. The simple fact is that hymns like these mean different things to different people. They are part of all our culture - you cannot claim sole rights over them. |
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18 Apr 13 - 07:46 AM (#3505234) Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral From: alanabit From memory: But there's another country/I heard of long ago Most dear to them that love her/Most great to them that know We may not count her armies/We may not see her king Her fortress is a faithful heart/Her pride is suffering But soul by soul and silently/Her shining bounds increase And her ways are ways of gentleness/And all her paths are peace. I think that fits a lot more comfortably with my feelings of patriotism and those of Holst than it does with those who like the jingoistic bombast of "God Save The Queen" or "Land of Hope and Glory". (As it happened, Elgar was also very uncomfortable with the buffoon like jingoism of the words which were put to the trio of his Pomp and Circumstance March No 1). I suppose these things do mean different things to different people. The boozers of the Corinthians Club of London, who first started singing the air to the song, which was later collared for the current American national anthem, never expected their tune to be approriated for the semi sanctity with which it is now regarded in many quarters! |
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18 Apr 13 - 07:50 AM (#3505235) Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral From: Keith A of Hertford Holst only wrote the music. One of his planets. Jupiter? |
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18 Apr 13 - 08:43 AM (#3505248) Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral From: alanabit The part that we associate with "I vow to the my country" comes in the second main melody of "Jupiter". Here is a version of it conducted by the late Colin Davis, who sadly departed earlier this week: Jupiter by the LSO conducted by Sir Colin Davis. |
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18 Apr 13 - 08:56 AM (#3505255) Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral From: G-Force I chose "To be a pilgrim" for my brother's funeral, mainly because Paul had been a folkie and at the time (1971) it was the only hymn with a folk tune I could think of in a hurry. I'm glad that Lady T would have approved of my choice. |
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18 Apr 13 - 09:23 AM (#3505268) Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral From: MGM·Lion I have a lifelong loathing of I Vow To Thee My Country. "Alone and whole & perfect the service of my love", forsooth! Grounds for divorce, surely. ~M~ |
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18 Apr 13 - 09:49 AM (#3505282) Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral From: greg stephens Tesco used "I vow to thee my country" to advertise the wholesome nature of the British meat they sell.Not quite sure how the "entire and whole and perfect" firs in with all that horsemeat stuff. |
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18 Apr 13 - 07:47 PM (#3505543) Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral From: Tattie Bogle It's a great tune, but maybe should have been left unworried. |
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19 Apr 13 - 01:20 AM (#3505618) Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral From: Haruo In the US "Love Divine" is usually sung to Beecher by Methodists, Baptists, and the evangelical wing of things, and to Hyfrydol by the liturgical wing (read a sort of low church/high church distinction), but I personally prefer Blaenwern. Have never actually heard it sung to Love Divine (Stainer). |
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19 Apr 13 - 08:38 AM (#3505720) Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral From: Green Man Our Captain Cried All Hands, And away tomorrow Leaving these girls behind In grief and sorrow. T the tune of t' be a pilgrim. Anyone have the rest of the words and who its attributable to?? Please? |
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19 Apr 13 - 08:59 AM (#3505729) Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral From: greg stephens Our Captain Cried All Hands his is a traditional English folksong: Vaughan Williams rejigged the tune a bit to fit it to the words of Bunyan's hymn. |
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19 Apr 13 - 09:28 AM (#3505740) Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral From: MGM·Lion Also the tune of traditional song "A blacksmith courted me, Nine months and better". Three versions in DT. Peter Kennedy collected a version from Phoebe Smith according to a previous 11 year old thread., ~M~ |
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19 Apr 13 - 10:46 AM (#3505770) Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral From: Mooh I'm Canadian, so Thatcher's policies had no direct affect on me beyond my sympathies for her opponents, but if she chose her own funeral hymns, at least she did something I liked. She had the brains to choose her own hymns, and she chose ones I like. I would think her choice in this regard isn't something to be argued, it is what it is. Peace, Mooh. |
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19 Apr 13 - 12:36 PM (#3505825) Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral From: Rumncoke OUR CAPTAIN CRIED ALL HANDS Our captain cried all hands and away tomorrow Leaving my dearest dear in grief and sorrow dry up your briny tears and leaf off weeping How happy shall we be at our next meeting How can do you go abroad, fighting for strangers you had better stay at home here out of danger I'd roll you in my arms, my dearest jewel So stay at home with me and don't be cruel When I had gold in store you seemed to like me Now that I'm low and poor you mean to slight me You courted me a while just to deceive me Now my poor heart you've won, you're going to leave me Down on the ground she fell like one a dying Spreading her arms abroad sighing and crying There is no trust in men, not your own brother So girls if you must love, love one another Farewell my dearest friends, father and mother I am your only child, you have no other Tis vain to weep for me for I am going The lad I loved so dear has been my ruin. I'm afraid that like so much of my songbook this is something I heard somewhere and wrote down later. I like the hymn. So did Baroness Thatcher - and she picked it for her funeral. |
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19 Apr 13 - 12:55 PM (#3505834) Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral From: GUEST,Eliza Surely MtheGM the words are, "Entire and whole and perfect..." not "Alone..."? |
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19 Apr 13 - 07:13 PM (#3505979) Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral From: Tattie Bogle Bl~~dy predictive text on iPad!!! That last post of mine should have read "UNWORDED" in relation to setting any sort of words to Holst's Planet Suite!! Mendelssohn had a point with his "Lieder Ohne Worte"! |
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20 Apr 13 - 02:55 AM (#3506067) Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral From: MGM·Lion Yes, Eliza; sorry for the misquote. But my point remains ~~ grounds for divorce! ~M~ |
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20 Apr 13 - 05:35 PM (#3506315) Subject: RE: To be a pilgrim/Thatcher's funeral From: GUEST,Eliza LOL Michael! I wonder if 'Fight The Good Fight' is a good hymn for a Divorce Service, if ever they introduced such a thing. |