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07 May 13 - 06:48 PM (#3512758) Subject: Americans clapping along. From: GUEST,Learaí na Láibe Why do tourists, especially Americans, at trad sessions in Ireland feel they have to clap along frenetically to songs and tunes in order to enjoy the craic? The clapping often drowns out the music and/or looses the rhythm of the musicians. Many trad singers sing with an irregular rhythm and clapping along puts them off and ruins the song. I guess this practise originated with amplified ballad groups singing every song to the same tempo but I don't think the practise is suited to your average unamplified session. A bit of foot tapping won't upset things but this fecking clapping along lark can grate on the nerves. I dunno, maybe I'm just growing into an oul crank. I'll have a small drop now - maybe 'twill calm me down a bit. |
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07 May 13 - 06:53 PM (#3512762) Subject: RE: American Clapping along. From: GUEST Sorry, title should have read: "Americans clapping along". I can't see any edit facility. |
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07 May 13 - 06:58 PM (#3512765) Subject: RE: American Clapping along. From: GUEST,GUEST Do you have some "you tube" examples? We are expecial ionterest in "off beat" clapping. America do this with Africa. XPcial |
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07 May 13 - 07:20 PM (#3512776) Subject: RE: American Clapping along. From: GUEST,mg Just announce that it is too difficult for you to play when people are clapping unless it is specifically announced that you can on certain songs... I personally like the Scottish notion that rhythm should be very strict but that is just me and perhaps some Scotts..and perhaps Prussians... |
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07 May 13 - 07:33 PM (#3512783) Subject: RE: American Clapping along. From: Gibb Sahib They are not musicians (probably), and they'd do the same for "American" singers in a similar style of music. Happens all the time. It is indeed a way to enjoy the craic. Lots of causes though. Some of them, I think, are indeed related to an "American" versus an "Irish" aesthetic. Though I don't think setting up the question as [ American = weird/wrong/etc] is very productive. |
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07 May 13 - 07:46 PM (#3512786) Subject: RE: American Clapping along. From: GUEST,Julia L It can be annoying and distracting anywhere when people get carried away (we don't have to worry about that here in Maine...) Fred was in New Orleans for "work" and happened into an Irish pub there. A group of folks on one of those plastic green hat "Irish" tours came in and started "participating". One of them was playing the spoons- and he was a pretty good spoons player. Problem was, when the singer sang a slow ballad, the guy kept on with the spoons. The singer finally stopped and said "For God's sake, will some one give that man a bowl of soup!?" Some people just need to be educated. Julia |
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07 May 13 - 08:10 PM (#3512798) Subject: RE: American Clapping along. From: artbrooks It is quite common here (in the US) for touring Irish and Irish-American groups to actively encourage clapping along. |
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07 May 13 - 08:43 PM (#3512806) Subject: RE: American Clapping along. From: Joybell A solution would be to tell them all to hold hands for peace -- or something else worthy. Maybe hug each other. :-) I'd hate that if I was an audience member -- but then I'm well behaved and polite and know my place. Just by the way -- Australians clap on the beat turning everything into a march. Joy |
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07 May 13 - 09:59 PM (#3512821) Subject: RE: American Clapping along. From: Janie Might it be that more American tourists clap at trad sessions in Ireland because there are more American tourists in Irish trad sessions than from perhaps other countries? |
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08 May 13 - 08:03 AM (#3512963) Subject: RE: American Clapping along. From: Mr Happy Just tell 'em to shut up! |
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08 May 13 - 09:52 AM (#3513002) Subject: RE: American Clapping along. From: GUEST My apologies for the heading I gave to the thread but I can't change it. That's one of the downsides of the internet - you often regret something as soon as you hit 'send'. I perhaps should have worded it: "Clapping along at trad sessions. I didn't mean to sound anti-American - I haven't done a statistical analysis but it does appear to me pretty much an American thing. Regarding musicians encouraging "clapping along" - I think that's more or less confined to ballad groups playing for the tourist market. I wouldn't dream about telling people at a session to shut up. There are no rules. The worst offence at sessions imho is people who push themselves up to the edge of the session and then proceed to converse in loud tones - mostly Irish, not tourists. I myself have probably been guilty of that behaviour in the days when I'd imbibe a little too much. :( Anyway clap away if that's what turns ye on. 'Tis a free world. |
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08 May 13 - 09:54 AM (#3513003) Subject: RE: American Clapping along. From: GUEST,Learaí na Láibe There, I've done it again. :( Last message was by Learaí na Láibe |
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09 May 13 - 05:04 AM (#3513274) Subject: RE: American Clapping along. From: GUEST,SteveT "It is quite common here (in the US) for touring Irish and Irish-American groups to actively encourage clapping along." -- I think the clapping probably originates with "commercial" groups, whether in the US or in UK/Eire, who try to involve the audience by getting them to clap along with fixed beat songs. Audiences then think that this is a way of showing appreciation and involvement. "A solution would be to tell them all to hold hands for peace" .. "Just announce that it is too difficult for you to play when people are clapping" – It's often difficult to make "announcements" if you're in a session as opposed to performing on a "stage". "I personally like the Scottish notion that rhythm should be very strict" -- The problem is the clapping often isn't! My own experience of sessions and singarounds (in the UK, not Eire) is that musicians and singers are not there primarily to entertain an audience but are there because they love the playing and singing. However, when you're in a crowded pub and there's a group who feel that they're an audience, they don't understand that you're not there just to entertain them, so they continue to act like an (appreciative!) audience. So – I think it's a misunderstanding caused by a clash of cultures. Somewhat irritating but pubs are, as the name suggests, "public" places. |
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09 May 13 - 06:53 AM (#3513312) Subject: RE: American Clapping along. From: MartinRyan My own experience of sessions and singarounds (in the UK, not Eire) is that musicians and singers are not there primarily to entertain an audience but are there because they love the playing and singing. However, when you're in a crowded pub and there's a group who feel that they're an audience, they don't understand that you're not there just to entertain them, so they continue to act like an (appreciative!) audience. So – I think it's a misunderstanding caused by a clash of cultures. Somewhat irritating but pubs are, as the name suggests, "public" places.. Fair comment, I reckon - though, as a mere Irishman, I'm never quite sure where Eire is when the term is used by English speakers. Is it near Tír na nÓg? ;>)> Regards |
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09 May 13 - 08:21 AM (#3513332) Subject: RE: American Clapping along. From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe Eire Apparent, perhaps? |
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09 May 13 - 08:55 AM (#3513343) Subject: RE: American Clapping along. From: Phil Cooper As an American, I find clapping along annoying, even when a band on stage encourages it. So I don't do it at sessions. I guess I don't like forced participation wherever it happens. |
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09 May 13 - 09:06 AM (#3513349) Subject: RE: American Clapping along. From: GUEST though, as a mere Irishman, I'm never quite sure where Eire is when the term is used by English speakers. Rubbish, you are just using he missing accent SteveT's post as an excuse for a smart arse commentt. |
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09 May 13 - 09:11 AM (#3513351) Subject: RE: Clapping along at trad sessions From: Joe Offer Hi, Steve. I changed the thread title as you requested. I'm an American, and I've been to a number of sessions in Ireland. I confess that I can tend to tap my foot to the music if there's foot-tapping going on. I rarely clap with music because I can't figure out how to clap in time - and I get tired of it after a verse or so. I get annoyed when a performer is constantly encouraging hand-clapping. Every once in a while is fine, but not constantly. -Joe, Mudcat Archivist- |
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09 May 13 - 09:15 AM (#3513355) Subject: RE: Clapping along at trad sessions From: MartinRyan I wasn't, actually. I genuinely don't know whether he meant the whole island or the Republic. In my relatively limited experience of sessions in Northern Ireland, heavy-handed clapping is about as common as it is in the Republic. Regards |
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09 May 13 - 02:48 PM (#3513486) Subject: RE: Clapping along at trad sessions From: Cool Beans I'm an American and I don't like clapping because most crowds can't clap in proper time to the music. |
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09 May 13 - 03:46 PM (#3513506) Subject: RE: Clapping along at trad sessions From: Phil Edwards "Australians clap on the beat turning everything into a march." They're not alone! I once saw a folkie encouraging the audience to clap, then scolding them for clapping on the beat - which was fair enough, given that about two-thirds of the audience were musicians themselves. But a lot of punters aren't very comfortable with the off-beat. WE PROUDLY WELCOME TONY ORLANDO The State Fair marquee reads Inside a thousand people with yellow ribbons sing And clap on 1 and 3 - Yo La Tengo |
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09 May 13 - 08:46 PM (#3513596) Subject: RE: Clapping along at trad sessions From: GUEST,Julia L I wonder if it's a "safe" way for people to participate? It seems that singing along is becoming less and less common. Singing is so kind of personal and people feel vulnerable doing it. Folks see that he session is casual and that others are participating. Anyone can clap... (although not on the beat any more than they can sing or play well or in tune!) I think it is generally meant as a sign of appreciation or enthusiasm coupled with a desire to participate in some way my tuppence worth Julia |
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10 May 13 - 04:03 AM (#3513660) Subject: RE: Clapping along at trad sessions From: GUEST,CS Stick up a 'polite notice' sign requesting the audience not clap along with the tunes because it interferes with the playing. If people start clapping along, smile nicely and point at it. |
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10 May 13 - 04:08 AM (#3513661) Subject: RE: Clapping along at trad sessions From: Rusty Dobro People say my playing interferes with the clapping.... |
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10 May 13 - 04:15 AM (#3513662) Subject: RE: Clapping along at trad sessions From: Will Fly Well, if you will try to play the guitar while clapping... :-) |
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10 May 13 - 04:26 AM (#3513663) Subject: RE: Clapping along at trad sessions From: GUEST,SteveT "as a mere Irishman, I'm never quite sure where Eire is when the term is used by English speakers. Is it near Tír na nÓg?" Apologies if I have offended. I was trying to clarify my limited geographical experience of sessions. It seemed that, with references to "Americans" and "Ireland", this might be relevant. Always fancied going for a holiday to Tír na nÓg though. (P.S. – Name inserted by cutting and pasting from your post. How do you get Mudcat to do clever things with accents, italics etc???) |
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10 May 13 - 04:46 AM (#3513668) Subject: RE: Clapping along at trad sessions From: MartinRyan GUEST SteveT No offence taken! On accenting letters: there are detailed instructions elsewhere on Mudcat about how to produce them in such a way that they will always display correctly, regardless of browser and other factors. I have to confess that I generally just use the shortcut key combinations that work on my own computer and, as we say, "Let the Devil take the hindmost!". Regards |
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10 May 13 - 04:50 AM (#3513671) Subject: RE: Clapping along at trad sessions From: Dave the Gnome I think everyone should do what the Japanese tourists did on watching my act. Instead of applauding they all shouted 'Clap, clap!'. DtG |
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10 May 13 - 05:22 AM (#3513680) Subject: RE: Clapping along at trad sessions From: doc.tom Or as they say in Scotland, 'Diel tak the hindmost' - Burns, wasn't it, in Tam O' Shanter? |
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11 May 13 - 03:08 AM (#3513791) Subject: Lyr Add: THE SPOONS MURDER (Con 'Fada' O Drisceoil From: Jim Carroll I find it almost, but not quite as destructive as audiences who join in the song uninvited. Billy Connolly interrupted one of his instrumentals to put paid to a foot-stamping audience - can be heard on one of his albums. Then, of course, there's Con Fada's 'Spoons Murder', which gives its title to a superb collection of his songs. published a few years ago along with a CD - well worth looking out for. Jim Carroll THE SPOONS MURDER (Con 'Fada' O Drisceoil) In the tavern one night we were sitting - I'm sure Was the last week of March – From our drinks we were cautiously sipping To ensure that our throats didn't parch. We played music both lively and dacent To bolster our spirits and hopes, As we gazed on the females adjacent And remarked on their curves and their slopes. Till this gent wandered into the session And decided to join in the tunes; Without waiting to ask our permission He took out a big pair of soup spoons. Our teeth in short time we were gritting As he shook and he rattled his toys, And the company's eardrums were splitting With his ugly mechanical noise. Hopping spoons off our heads to provoke us, He continued the music to kill; Whether hornpipes, slow airs or polkas, They all sounded like pneumatic drills. Then he asked could we play any faster, As his talent he wished to display, With a grin on the face of the bastard Like the cat when she teases her prey. Our thoughts at this stage were quite bloody And politely we asked him to quit; We suggested a part of his body Where those spoons could conveniently fit. This monster we pestered and hounded, We implored him with curses and tears, But in vain our appeals they resounded In the desert between his two ears. When I went out the back on a mission, He arrived as I finished my leak; He says "This is a mighty fine session, I think 1'll come here every week". When I heard this, with rage I was leppin, And this torture no longer I'd take: I looked round for a suitable weapon To silence this damned rattlesnake. Outside towards the yard I did sally To find something to vanquish my foe: I grabbed hold of a gentleman's Raleigh With fifteen-speed gear and dynamo. Then I battered that musical vandal As I shouted with furious cries "My dear man, your last spoon you have handled, Say your prayers and await your demise!" With the bike I assailed my tormentor As I swung in a frenzy of hate, Till his bones and his skull were in splinters And his health in a very poor state. And when I was no longer able, I forestalled any last-minute hitch By removing the gear-changing cable And strangling that son-of-a-bitch. At the end of my onslaught ferocious I stood back and surveyed the scene; The state of the place was atrocious, Full of fragments of man and machine. At the spoons-player's remains I was staring, His condition was surely no joke, For his nose was clogged up with ball-bearings And his left eye was pierced by a spoke. At the sight I was feeling quite squeamish, So I washed up and went back inside; Then I drank a half-gallon of Beamish, As my throat in the struggle had dried. Unpolluted by cutlery's clatter The music was pleasant and sweet; For the rest of the night nothing mattered But the tunes and the tapping of feet. At an inquest, the following September, The coroner said "I conclude The deceased by himself was dismembered, As no sign could be found of a feud. For the evidence shows that the fact is, As reported to me by the guards, He indulged in the foolhardy practice Of trick-cycling in public house yards". So if you're desperately keen on percussion, And to join in the tunes you can't wait; Be you Irishman, German or Russian, Take a lesson from his awful fate. If your spoons are the best silver-plated, Or the humblest of cheap stainless steel, When you play them abroad you'll be hated, So just keep them for eating your meals. |
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11 May 13 - 08:48 AM (#3513839) Subject: RE: Clapping along at trad sessions From: Singapore Slim Only start worrying when audience starts a slow handclap! |
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11 May 13 - 09:21 AM (#3513844) Subject: RE: Clapping along at trad sessions From: GUEST Clapping aside, did you ever notice that no matter where you go or what kind of music you play, there's always that one audience member who tries to upstage you? There's always one. |
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11 May 13 - 11:59 AM (#3513879) Subject: RE: Clapping along at trad sessions From: Roger the Skiffler I agree with the last GUEST. When I'm in Greace, after I've joined in on my host's hand drum, cajon or my own spoons & kazoo, someone else (usually a mere child) takes them over and plays much better! RtS |
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11 May 13 - 03:37 PM (#3513933) Subject: RE: Clapping along at trad sessions From: Stilly River Sage This American has never cared for the clapping along - with the distance and physics of air movement and sound those clapping are always off the beat. SRS |
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11 May 13 - 09:10 PM (#3514038) Subject: RE: Clapping along at trad sessions From: Joe Offer So, what about foot-tapping at sessions - not stomping, just something gentle to feel you're part of the music? I seem to hear it a lot at sessions, and sometimes it's hard to resist joining in. Lots of people wouldn't initiate stomping or clapping, but they feel they can or should join in if others are going it. Personally, I rarely want to hear hand clapping when I'm listening to live music. -Joe- |
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12 May 13 - 08:31 AM (#3514172) Subject: RE: Clapping along at trad sessions From: GUEST,Jack Sprocket I had a blind acquaintance who used to make musicians' lives a misery by rattling spoonwise his folded white stick, when he wasn't beating on tin trays with 50p pieces. He was English too- had he been sighted they'd have put his eyes out if not his life, but instead contented themselves with overcharging him for the Guinness. At least he refrained from that sessional hypersolecism of CLAP,CLAP,CLAP-CLAP-CLAP. |
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12 May 13 - 11:36 AM (#3514228) Subject: RE: Clapping along at trad sessions From: GUEST I honestly think it has more to do with a lack of community. Where the music originated there is a whole social order associated with the experience. A code of conduct. Rules. In America you're lucky if your audience member has even been to an Open Mic at a coffee shop. And the odds are they held their own conversation the whole time, spoke on their phone, etc. Clapping during a song? They don't understand that they are playing the original percussion instrument. They are sitting in without being invited, or even asking. But they have no framework to understand that basic truth. So it comes down to the old saw of "Ignorance of the law is no excuse" . But it is understandable. I've seen the results of different cultures facing a western bathroom facility for the first time. In one case there were little dirty footprints on the toilet seat. Would you judge that person? Or would you explain "how we do it here"? Same thing in my mind. |
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13 May 13 - 12:48 PM (#3514612) Subject: RE: Clapping along at trad sessions From: GUEST One of the worst instances of clapping along that I have witnessed was at a performance of traditional tribal music, by indigenous people from South or Central America, in a small to medium room of a major NYC cultural museum. Most or all of the clapping was done by children in the audience, who were part of a class outing, but their teachers did nothing to stop them. |
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15 May 13 - 03:00 PM (#3515427) Subject: RE: Clapping along at trad sessions From: Bainbo Is it acceptable to let out a whoop when the tempo picks up? |
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16 May 13 - 03:02 PM (#3515876) Subject: RE: Clapping along at trad sessions From: LesB "Is it acceptable to let out a whoop when the tempo picks up?" It appears to b,e if you are American. I hate clapping along to anything by anybody. It's always those with no sense of timing that clap the loudest, & those with two left feet that get up & try to dance to everything. Hey ho. Les |
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16 May 13 - 04:33 PM (#3515904) Subject: RE: Clapping along at trad sessions From: Arthur_itus I don't clap anymore as it hurts my arthritic hands. |
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16 May 13 - 05:03 PM (#3515914) Subject: RE: Clapping along at trad sessions From: mayomick The sad thing is that audience members who do it actually think they are doing musicians a favour when they clap along . Providing percussion and at the same time showing approval of the performance. |
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17 May 13 - 01:55 AM (#3516053) Subject: RE: Clapping along at trad sessions From: SteveMansfield From: LesB - PM Date: 16 May 13 - 03:02 PM Is it acceptable to let out a whoop when the tempo picks up? A few years ago I saw a Very Famous Irish Band who were obviously having a bad day inter-personal-relations-wise - the frontwoman was doing her best, but the rest of the band looked like they couldn't wait to get backstage so they could all top themselves from depression or continue the massive argument they'd graciously interrupted to come on stage. Despite this glowering foul-temperedness, however, they cranked out some very well played jigs and reels, and took it in turns to whoop whenever the tempo changed (which was always on the transition into the third tune of a set of three). I've seldom seen a more mechanical and over-rehearsed bit of 'spontaneity', and it made me deeply cynical about this whole Pavlovian business of whooping at a tempo or key change ... |
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17 May 13 - 02:54 AM (#3516058) Subject: RE: Clapping along at trad sessions From: GUEST,Allan Conn I think this thread is maybe a wee bit unfair to the average American tourist.We have a weekly Friday night pub session after our open mic and it tends to be a mixture of songs (both folkie and other styles) and trad (mostly Scottish) tunes. I find the American tourists on the whole just tend to sit and soak in the atmosphere with big smiles on their faces and, compared to most other tourists, they are good in offering to buy the musicians beers! I don't think the average American tourist is any worse a clapper than the average tourist from elsewhere in Scotland or indeed England or Ireland. I think the point is maybe more just the average tourist (wherever they come from) isn't a traddie musician. |
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17 May 13 - 12:45 PM (#3516210) Subject: RE: Clapping along at trad sessions From: LesB I hate Whooping as well, (I'm getting a right miserable git) Cheers Les |
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17 May 13 - 12:56 PM (#3516219) Subject: RE: Clapping along at trad sessions From: McGrath of Harlow About the only time clapping along can help things is when dancing on ice is involved... |
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17 May 13 - 01:20 PM (#3516231) Subject: RE: Clapping along at trad sessions From: May Queen I'm an enthusiastic clapper, whooper and dancer so I'd better not come to anything you're all going to On a serious note I try to keep all 3 to appropriate occasions(ie amplified music) and would be mortified if a musician appeared to be annoyed by it. I am pretty good at clapping in time and can even do the offbeat if required ;-)Admitedly it is annoying when people cant keep time I do however fail to understand people who never even tap a foot or finger (or break a smile?)to music which is clearly rhythmic, joyful and uplifting.... |
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17 May 13 - 01:35 PM (#3516236) Subject: RE: Clapping along at trad sessions From: GUEST,CS I guess I'm a follower allonger. It really depends on what the predominant mood is as to whether I feel it's OK to join in or to clap or whatever. I'd never initiate singing along (unless I actually knew the singer's feeling on that) but I will join in if everyone else seems to be doing it! I guess what can happen is that one set of people in one group or club's culture forment a 'norm' for them, but that doesn't always translate well to other environs? |
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17 May 13 - 02:12 PM (#3516254) Subject: RE: Clapping along at trad sessions From: rosma I don't think it will help the OP, but a good approach when visiting anywhere new, including a music session you haven't previously visited, is to watch first and gauge how other people behave before stepping in yourself. (It's often said about fora such as this as well. I'm definitely not trying to make a point there) The problem with most of the sessions I have found in Ireland is that most people are visitors, and probably visitors with less knowledge of session etiquette than I have, so you can understand some breaches. I have no doubt I'm going to the wrong ones and might benefit from advice on finding more "authentic" sessions in Ireland. Then again, it's not usual to lay down the rules explicitly. At best it spoils the flow of the session and at worst it'll offend someone and they'll never want to attend a session again. |
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17 May 13 - 02:54 PM (#3516266) Subject: RE: Clapping along at trad sessions From: mayomick I seem to remember reading that clapping along to music originated in puritan America as a substitute for dancing, which was supposed to have been immoral . Perhaps there's some connection to that? The Irish music you hear at most sessions is dance music. |
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17 May 13 - 04:23 PM (#3516291) Subject: RE: Clapping along at trad sessions From: Elmore Love it when the audience begins to clap along, and the (usually Celtic) band speeds up or changes the tempo. That usually stops 'em. |