|
27 Jul 13 - 12:27 PM (#3542407) Subject: BS: Mudcat Community From: olddude With the passing of our dear Kat, it was so nice to see so many old friends posting again on the Forum. I asked several why they left. To a person the attitude was "Mudcat use to be a community of friends, of thoughtful caring people who helped each other. Sadly it has become a community of adversaries" Looking at the threads in the last year of so, there is truth to this statement don't you think. The question is, how does it go back to what it use to be instead of left vs Right, religous vs non religious, guns vs non guns etc. Sadly I do think it will cease if it continues don't you or maybe I am all wrong. We all get heated up sometimes (me too) but isn't it time to stop? I ask the question |
|
27 Jul 13 - 12:35 PM (#3542410) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Jack the Sailor In my experience, there have always been fights here. A lot of the worst people are gone. It seems to me that about 10 or 15 people are doing about 80% of the fighting. On the other hand it is usually easy enough to ignore those threads. There is a little too much name calling. On the other hand a lot of the community has moved to facebook. One can start thread there and police it themselves. Amos, Mick, Spaw and Gnu are my friends on FB, lot of friendly greetings and no fights that I have seen. |
|
27 Jul 13 - 12:36 PM (#3542411) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Jack the Sailor On the other hand a lot of the community has moved to facebook. should be On the other hand a lot of the community activity has moved to facebook. |
|
27 Jul 13 - 12:47 PM (#3542414) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Jeri Dan, I think if we can ignore the trolls, including stupid people and stupid posts, and contribute to what we love, we can be that community. |
|
27 Jul 13 - 01:00 PM (#3542419) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Q (Frank Staplin) The "10 or 15 people who are doing 80 percent of the fighting" post over and over, overwhelming any attempt at logical discussion. They either must heal themselves, or be subject to rigorous censorship and/or barring from posting. |
|
27 Jul 13 - 01:12 PM (#3542422) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Jack the Sailor membership conditions. You are free to be anything you want EXCEPT unkind, impolite, argumentative, snooty, or either FOR or AGAINST that of-what-we-do-not-speak. a few warnings and deletions over these things as well as a discussion over the what is permitted may go a long way. There are members who show nothing but those traits below the line. unkind, impolite, argumentative, on the other hand, I enjoy the snootiness, especially from the Englishmen, make me nostalgic for the Empire! :-) |
|
27 Jul 13 - 01:25 PM (#3542430) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Q (Frank Staplin) Yes, the occasional argument with the inhabitants of that quaint little island adds spice to mudcat. Perhaps a list here of the argumentative, impolite and unkind might help. The average good, kind mudcat can refuse to post to threads started or infested by these miscreants. |
|
27 Jul 13 - 02:40 PM (#3542446) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly Seems the colonies are starting to bang the rocks together at last. |
|
27 Jul 13 - 04:49 PM (#3542469) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: olddude I give up |
|
27 Jul 13 - 04:54 PM (#3542470) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Bill D We make FIRE! Got super fire starter from Brookstone! There is STILL community for those who look for it. I cannot comprehend how anyone follows & keeps up on FaceBook unless they are on continuously. |
|
27 Jul 13 - 05:26 PM (#3542483) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Ebbie "O wad some Pow'r the giftie gie us To see oursels as ithers see us! It wad frae mony a blunder free us..." (Frankly, I don't know if I could stand the sight.) |
|
27 Jul 13 - 05:41 PM (#3542491) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: maeve Don't give up, Dan. Those who understand what you are asking and are willing to care will continue to reach out. The community will continue and grow to the degree that we make connections and treat one another with kindness, respect, and good humor/humour. It's worth the effort. |
|
27 Jul 13 - 06:49 PM (#3542499) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Janie Thank you maeve. I've written and then erased at least 8 posts to this thread. |
|
27 Jul 13 - 07:14 PM (#3542510) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: pdq As that great philosopher Peter Green once said... "Don't ask me what I think of you Might not give the answer that you want me to" |
|
27 Jul 13 - 07:22 PM (#3542515) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Bobert If you think that Mudcat has become a community of adversaries today then you need to take a trip back to when Bush was trying to sell the Iraq War... Today is peaceful compared to then... B~ |
|
27 Jul 13 - 07:33 PM (#3542521) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Q (Frank Staplin) And probably the same old miscreants who need to be handcuffed. |
|
27 Jul 13 - 07:40 PM (#3542523) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: gnu Dan... "how does it go back to what it use to be..." Only by you and all the other good hearted people posting when it matters. You speak of "adversaries". Yup. I just last night went absolutely apeshit in this here Café. Overboard on the good ship. I dove overboard and swam with the sharks. I bit back. But I did so in the wrong way. I know better. I know I should not have posted the things I posted but I was just in that mood when... when... ya just can't take listening to any more assholes. And what pisses me off is this. We used to be a community that would rally and defeat these trolls and assholes with humour and prose that would shame them from posting again. It was a collective effort of like minds of tollerant and intelligent people telling these pieces of trash to fuck off in a very polite and very mannerly way. I apologize that I have sunken to the depths of telling them to fuck off when they they try to hijack and cheapen threads for whatever reason they feel they need to do so. I long for the day when we get back to the community we were years ago. On that note, I do like some songs by Eminem. >;-) If ya don't know what I mean, ya ain't been here long enough ta understand what I said before that. Good thread, Dan. |
|
27 Jul 13 - 07:56 PM (#3542527) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Bobert I thought that was a purdy decent rant, gn-ze... And I agreed with every word... B;~) |
|
27 Jul 13 - 07:58 PM (#3542528) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Janie Telling other people what they need to do or how they need to act or think is rarely, if ever, an effective strategy for change. I have no capacity to change others. Only myself. |
|
27 Jul 13 - 09:12 PM (#3542544) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Jack the Sailor People perhaps should be discouraged from intentionally breaking the rules as they say they are doing so? Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway??? From: Steve Shaw - PM Date: 26 Jul 13 - 09:03 PM Four billion years of evolution has led to no end-points save the ones involving dead ends and extinctions and billions of useless or malevolent miscopies of genetic information. Arguably, not even improvements. The suggestion that evolution has some kind of goal is pure nonsense and reveals that you have a good deal of studying to do. You are about as advanced in your knowledge of evolution as pete. Please take that as the insult it is intended to be. Please take that as the insult it is intended to be. Please take that as the insult it is intended to be. Please take that as the insult it is intended to be. Please take that as the insult it is intended to be. What we really have is a very basic philosophical difference, Steve. We differ philosophically in what we think life is primarily about, and these last few posts have clarified that very well. Covering up your sheer ignorance of this matter by pretending that your deluded standpoint is some kind of philosophical position is ludicrous and risible. Even more so considering that my position is one of an understanding of overwhelming scientific evidence and nothing to do with "philosophy". You are, to put it plainly, full of utter bullshit. |
|
27 Jul 13 - 09:15 PM (#3542545) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Bill D *sigh* |
|
27 Jul 13 - 09:27 PM (#3542546) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Bobert I'll see your *sigh* and raise you two *sighs*... B;~) |
|
27 Jul 13 - 09:28 PM (#3542547) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Q (Frank Staplin) Well, olddude, Jack-S has effectively shown why mudcat is no longer a community. |
|
27 Jul 13 - 09:42 PM (#3542549) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Leadfingers The problem is that Mudcat IS a community - and like ALL Communities has its share of Arseholes ! As the community gets bigger , so does the share of Arseholes , and sadly its the Arseholes who make the most noise ! |
|
27 Jul 13 - 10:04 PM (#3542550) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Jeri I'm wary of threads such as this, because, while olddude would like things to be nicer, most people will use it as an excuse to complain about whatever and whomever bothers them. Sort of like me, but I won't argue, just state my case and go. Since there seems to be a lot of bothered people, and Mudcat has, for some of them, become the place where they come to fight with people they hate about subjects they hate, troll about religion and politics, given that even those who once pretended to care about music obviously don't any more, and that hatred and anger are the only reasons they're here,-- --the only "community" exists with people who don't play the hate game. The volume of posts does not make Mudcat a more appealing place. Turning the dial up to 10 on "stupid" doesn't make Mudcat more appealing. Arguing with others in a way that makes you feel better but guarantees that people wouldn't want to get anywhere near you in the real world doesn't make Mudcat (or even YOU) more appealing. I don't even want to know some of you on line. If I'm at an event with you and it seems I'm avoiding you, I probably am. I've never disliked as many people as I do now, but the only thing I can do about it is sit back and let them keep demonstrating the whatever crap their lack of a filter lets them feel justified in posting. When ("if" for the more oblivious) you wonder about those who couldn't take any more of the crap and left, do you ever think it's you who turns them off? Do you care? Do you ever wonder there might be something wrong with you if what keeps you coming back to Mudcat is the fighting Listen, I know we're not all smarter, more right, or "funner" than everybody else, even though that's what some folks seem to believe. Just please, shut up once in a while. Be nice once in a while. Give people a break. No, the people who love shit are going to keep producing it and throwing it around until the whole places is covered in it and are probably helpless to stop, but I can dream. |
|
27 Jul 13 - 10:30 PM (#3542558) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Little Robyn You have found part of the reason things have changed but there is another reason. 10 years ago I called in at least twice a day, I searched for songs, I waited for Malcolm Douglas to give a definitive reply, or I had a conversation with Kytrad, half a world away. I made friends with people like Azizi or Skarpi, and I offered answers when someone asked a question about something I was familiar with - NZ songs, Northumbrian smallpipes or Mayday at Padstow. I followed Michelle's battle with cancer, then added my own. I sent a chrissy tree decoration to Cats and received one of Jaquie's shawls. Yes, we had a lovely caring community. But then I joined Facebook. Now I still check in to the café every couple of days and can still look up songs if I need to (but I don't need to do that very often now) but on Facebook I see what's happening whenever someone posts and I can easily click on a link or ask someone a question, either publicly or in private. Yes, I could do that on Mudcat but somehow, Facebook seems to be more personal and I don't have to put up with the nasty stuff. So, I'm still here. Just not so often. Robyn |
|
27 Jul 13 - 11:00 PM (#3542566) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: GUEST,Dani .... what Jeri said.... Dani |
|
27 Jul 13 - 11:10 PM (#3542569) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Rapparee I could mention names...Martin Gibson, Claymore, and others. But let water under the bridge lay where God flang it. There are still those who care, I'm on both FB and the MC. Usually at least once a day on each. I get more out of the MC. |
|
27 Jul 13 - 11:33 PM (#3542573) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: dick greenhaus I totally fail to see the appeal of Mudcat on Facebook. Can someone explain it to me? Whenever I visit it, I find an endless string of postings, which attract a few comments and then disappear forever. There doesn't seem to be any easy way of skimming for items of interest, nor of responding to posts where the response might require some tome to consider. |
|
27 Jul 13 - 11:52 PM (#3542574) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: ranger1 What Jeri said. I lurk more than I post, usually because things just devolve into nastiness, both above and below the line. Some very talented under 20 year-olds attempted to join the "community" and were met with ridicule and snark. One of them told me it was like high school all over again, and I had to agree with her. I tried to get some help with a project that I'm doing to expose more young people to folk, and ended up turning to Facebook for help, because I wasn't getting much help here, mostly insults and rudeness. I miss the old Mudcat, sure, we had The Shambles and Martin Gibson, but they seemed to be the minority and not the majority. |
|
28 Jul 13 - 12:13 AM (#3542576) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Amos Jeri's dream is a shared one. I poured a huge amount of energy into Mudcat in the first few years I was here, purely out of delight and excitement over the positive and humorous and helpful voices I found here. And a lot of that spark is still here, but more obscured by clouds of studied antagonism and hamhanded irrelevance. Ya pays yer money and makes yer cherce, I suppose. A |
|
28 Jul 13 - 01:04 AM (#3542580) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Andrez I agree with Leadfingers 27/7 post. Reading the Carrickfergus thread recently for the first time and becoming immersed into the songs story and peoples discoveries, perceptions, interpretations etc or the outpouring of love, warmth and regret for Kat and her passing amongst dozens and dozens and dozens, oh all right maybe hundreds, of other threads is what makes this a community that Facebook and the like will never be. I'll just lurk or post as I see fit and just dont bother engaging whenever I come across someone's hardline rant/s. LIke dat ole' song says: yer gotta accentuate da positive, eliminate da negative etc, etc. Cheers, Andrez |
|
28 Jul 13 - 03:22 AM (#3542587) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: GUEST When we have finished praying for peace, let us turn our attention on ourselves? Olddude wants nice friendly debate yet the fruits of his labor include posts insulting those who don't share his Christianity. Q is either being ironic or is saying Mudcat needs an elite corps of members living in their own neighborhood, presumably not including the English. Jack the Sailor goads people to get a reaction. So.. who would police this friendly place? Above the line, I get more satisfying information from those under scrutiny here than I can take in when it comes to traditional music. |
|
28 Jul 13 - 04:40 AM (#3542599) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Roger the Skiffler At the risk of repeating myself....just ignore the flamers and deliberately provocative, deny them the oxygen of publicity. Don't read their threads & bust a blood vessel, don't respond. They'll eventually get tired and go away. RtS |
|
28 Jul 13 - 05:40 AM (#3542612) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Dave the Gnome Agreed, Guest of 28 Jul 13 - 03:22 AM. I would also say that there seems to be a case of rose-tinted specs going on. Mudcat has never been the Utopia that some people think, but nor is Facebook or any online community. Remember that Facebook was used to create all this fake Mudcat personas some time ago. Keep it as it is and always was. Anarchic and informative all at the same time :-) Cheers DtG |
|
28 Jul 13 - 06:09 AM (#3542619) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Steve Shaw There must be at least 50 threads-of-the-day on the screen in front of me at any one time. I have to ask myself why people who allegedly hate certain topics/people don't just ignore the stuff they don't like. Just don't bloody click. Wacko, that was a pure-and-simple troll post. Your own posts are riddled with ill-humour, prejudice and rudeness. Why don't you just go back a couple of weeks to the one in which a mate of yours called me a "fucking asshole"? Come on, old boy, if you're going to quote examples let's have a fair spread! Cast out the plank (or, in your case, walk it). Incidentally, as I recall that is the first time in tens of thousands of posts on the interwebby thingie that I've ever typed "that word". See what depths Wacko gets you plunging to? |
|
28 Jul 13 - 07:16 AM (#3542636) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: GUEST,SJL "on the other hand, I enjoy the snootiness, especially from the Englishmen, make me nostalgic for the Empire! :-)" (Uproarious laughter) Good one Jack :-) |
|
28 Jul 13 - 07:28 AM (#3542643) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: akenaton This part of mudcat is nominally a BS discussion zone, it is excellent,if one is prepared to ignore bullying and name calling by a very few. I have never encountered so many highly intelligent people on one small forum....it is a delight, if you keep calm and keep civil. Someone opened a FB account for me, it is typical of most modern media, childish and boring. If I want to ask my friends how they are, I'll lift the phone or use Email. |
|
28 Jul 13 - 07:33 AM (#3542644) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: akenaton "I have never encountered so many highly intelligent people on one small forum".......and yes, that includes you Don,Amos, Bill,Bobert and many others...:0) |
|
28 Jul 13 - 08:30 AM (#3542669) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: McGrath of Harlow The more things change, the more they stay as they were. The more things stay as they were, the more things change. Both those statements are equally true. |
|
28 Jul 13 - 09:04 AM (#3542676) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: GUEST,Musket curious Well at least some things work around here. Messages work and some aspects sink in. Notice I'm not on his list of intelligent people? I'd be worried if I was... Delicious irony in (the whole of USA) feeling (the whole of UK) are up for a fight and argue the toss. Presumably none of our catty friends were in the military then? The snag is, to sit in agreement with some of the delightfully weird people on this forum, you would have to stop holding many principles to be true. No. Better to have a laugh and see what happens when you prod them with your stick with it's horses head handle, the finest that Woolworths could sell. |
|
28 Jul 13 - 09:09 AM (#3542678) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: akenaton We dont have to all "agree" to be a community, in fact, if we all agreed about everything, this section of the forum would be pointless. |
|
28 Jul 13 - 09:19 AM (#3542680) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: akenaton Every thread or message here does not have to be about you Ian, Calm down, chill out, have a nice day. |
|
28 Jul 13 - 09:21 AM (#3542682) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: GUEST,Musket curious It certainly isn't about you. ... |
|
28 Jul 13 - 10:21 AM (#3542701) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Rapparee Dear Musket, Yes, many of us were in the military. I was in the Infantry on the DMZ in Korea, for example. Kendall was in the Coast Guard and did so well that the coast of Maine is still there. Big Mick was in Vietnam. Charmion and Edmond were/are in the Canadian Defence Forces. There are many others, some of whom you might not suspect. |
|
28 Jul 13 - 10:30 AM (#3542706) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Jack the Sailor The point of posting that post of Steve's which was the first one I read after the last time I opened this thread. was to illustrate, A. That there are rules for civility on this forum. B. There is ALMOST NO ENFORCEMENT at all. Steve has exactly ONE post on this thread an in it he calls me Whacko, as he does in every post that he addresses me. If you look back of Steve's posting history there is an insult against someone in almost every single post. Same with Greg F. Almost every post by songwronger and and Bearded Bruce are designed to pick a fight. You could end 90% of the fighting by enforcing the rules on 5 or six people. You wouldn't have to do it for long. As was said on this thread. The people here are smart. They will learn quickly to find more civil ways to communicate. Or, they will find other people to pick on on another forum. |
|
28 Jul 13 - 11:03 AM (#3542713) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Steve Shaw "If you look back of Steve's posting history there is an insult against someone in almost every single post." That's a horrible lie and you know it. |
|
28 Jul 13 - 11:21 AM (#3542720) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Jack the Sailor From your last ten posts before this thread. At least one insult in half of them. Not to mention your recent conversations on the Militant Atheism which are entirely about your "new religion" which is aimed at mocking me. Well, thing is I wan't actually insulting you. I was demolishing you. I know how hard it is to take demolition and pretend, instead, that it's a mere insult. You see, Hawk, you have no idea about evolution. Evolution for one, a subject on which you bravely, recklessly and publicly rattle on about but about which you know precisely nothing. What you do know plenty about is how to bullshit us all on this forum. Covering up your sheer ignorance of this matter by pretending that your deluded standpoint is some kind of philosophical position is ludicrous and risible. Wacko's response is so stupid that I won't waste time on it. Your notion is fanciful and whimsical but it has nothing whatever to do with evolution. I bet even Snail would agree with me there. Unshackling ourselves from evidence-free notions of either inner or outer forces doing the driving is what the beginning of good science is all about. Enjoy your imaginative ramblings but don't confuse them with evolution. |
|
28 Jul 13 - 11:27 AM (#3542721) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: GUEST,olddude Jeri said it best I think. Many are missing the point. It is not my words but a summary of many of the old posters that no longer visit here anymore. What does one do when their community becomes unpleasant? They fight back, then get tired of fighting and move ... isn't that what happened to many of the people who no longer post? I am only the messenger. I never said I was a saint either. I got sick of the non ending religious bashing and yes blew up at some people. That I am not proud of either. |
|
28 Jul 13 - 11:34 AM (#3542728) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Steve Shaw Less than an hour ago you said: If you look back of Steve's posting history there is an insult against someone in almost every single post. Now you're saying: From your last ten posts before this thread. At least one insult in half of them. Bit of a shift, there, eh? Like I said, a horrible lie. And you're making a fool of yourself. Not to mention your recent conversations on the Militant Atheism which are entirely about your "new religion" which is aimed at mocking me. Absolute tommyrot. We're taking the piss out of organised religion. We don't usually even give you a thought unless you rear your head. You appear to have a persecution complex. |
|
28 Jul 13 - 11:37 AM (#3542731) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Jeri This back and forth hate fest posting isn't gonna fly in this thread. Aside to Rap: whatchu talkin' 'bout? |
|
28 Jul 13 - 11:45 AM (#3542732) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Q (Frank Staplin) Gee whiz, I was commenting tongue-in-cheek about the quaint little island- I enjoy the posts from the good people there that point fun at N. Am. peculiarities. May good-natured bantering continue- that is a part of community! But ill-mannered negativism destroys the community- the four or five who practice this approach do not belong in any forum. They only encourage ill-manners in return. We all know who they are. |
|
28 Jul 13 - 11:52 AM (#3542737) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Larry The Radio Guy I've found that the strongest communities are created when we develop a 'curiosity' about each other. Asking the question (at least to myself) what is this person wanting by posting this comment? Then trying to find out, rather than reacting to it. Let's see there was one person on mudcat where I 'cringe' when I see that he's posted on something. And I'm so often tempted to react and let me know how unpleasant he is, etc. etc. What would be gained? Would he read it and suddenly 'change'? No. Would it spur on others to also attack? Probably......and then I'd feel horrible because it would feel like bullying. My challenge would be to find an opening to respectfully question something he writes and to be truly interested in the answer. Until I can do that, I'll try to ignore most of his posts. And if there are a lot of people about whom I feel that.....I'd probably stop being a part of mudcat. |
|
28 Jul 13 - 11:53 AM (#3542738) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Megan L I have never yet met someone who: Never got angry Never said something they later wished the had not Never said anything unwise Never felt their temper rise to meet others words. Never became impatient It does not matter their race, creed, gender, or any other quality about them or their life. They are human with human virtues and human failings. The most we can hope for ourselves is that we can: Be wise more often than we are foolish Be peacemakers more often than we are warmongers Be quiet talkers more often than we are shouters Be compassionate more often than we are uncaring Be bridges more often than we are walls Be listeners more often than we feel the need to talk Be gentle more often than we are harsh Be forgiving more often than we are condemning And that in the end we don't beat others or ourselves up with a ruddy great stick for making a mistake. And remember :-) just because you are old and grumpy does not mean you cannot be nice sometimes. |
|
28 Jul 13 - 11:55 AM (#3542740) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Jack the Sailor Jeri, If you did that consistently this thread would not have been necessary. A few people are consistently breaking the rules and nothing is being done. This has always been a problem here selective enforcement of the rules based on who is popular with the admins. |
|
28 Jul 13 - 12:07 PM (#3542743) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Jeri Rob, are you talking about yourself or other people? |
|
28 Jul 13 - 12:15 PM (#3542748) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Ebbie Megan, I feel like I'm fifteen years old again- I like your 'rules' so much that I copied them onto a document and am going to make a poster from them. Concise and provocative. Thanks. |
|
28 Jul 13 - 12:35 PM (#3542754) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Jack the Sailor I am obviously not talking about myself. I have NEVER been popular with the admins. :-) I can go either way. Sometimes I provoke, though not nearly as often as I am accused of it. A lot of the times I just go with the flow. Sometimes I go out of my way to include people and appreciate them. A lot of my recent altercations, especially with Mr. Shaw was to give them a chance to see what it would be like to treat them as they treat others. If the rules were enforced that would not have happened. I would be happy to live by the posted rules if that was the way things were here. You have a half dozen people picking 90% of the fights. Next time that happens, why don't you just delete the post and replace it with "Rules violation. Please find a friendlier, more polite mode of communication." |
|
28 Jul 13 - 12:54 PM (#3542764) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: VirginiaTam Several reasons I lurk more than participate. Early on received a number of moderations without sufficient explanation as to why, when clearly others (long standing members) were not moderated for similar if not identical infractions Got targeted by fascist trolls who created a load of horrible fake IDs of me, which really put me off. Became too ill to cope with negativity in general. A lot of unkindness goes on in some threads. I actually feel bad for both sides regardless of my personal political and philosophical views. And feel ashamed for those who use such vitirolic language at their fellow human beings. Embarrassed by my inability to contribute anything of value since I became so ill. Cognitive functioning is much diminished with illness and medications. |
|
28 Jul 13 - 12:59 PM (#3542765) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: akenaton Name calling is one sure way to provoke a negative reaction, it's becoming almost commonplace with some members, who habitually use offensive names for members they disagree with. I think Jack is 100% right, we argue often and with passion but we never descend into childishness like name calling. Alternative views are healthy for an online discussion forum, but civility is essential, or the community disintegrates. I also agree with Jack regarding the ineffectuality of the moderation, surely it cant be too difficult to keep an eye on regular offenders? |
|
28 Jul 13 - 01:06 PM (#3542766) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Jack the Sailor Sometimes making the point that you think that someone is being a bigot or a racist or a "whacko" or whatever is OK in my books. But after the 4th or 5th time it is just bullying and abuse. You have made your point. Move on. |
|
28 Jul 13 - 01:54 PM (#3542782) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Bill D "Next time that happens, why don't you just delete the post ..." This used to be tried by Joe and several other mods.... and the practical side of this was that because being a mod is a part time volunteer job, it became impossible to keep up and apply all the "rules" totally fairly across the board. The mods were (and still are) human, and it was NOT easy to define the "rules" in a way that ensured that editing and deleting would please everyone. I have read many of the threads where persons A & B were sure THEY had been insulted first..(like kids in the back seat.."Daddy, he hit me first!".."Well, he was making faces at me...") What can even the most honest, dedicated, 'neutral' mod do? Delete every trace of the dispute? In many cases, that would make even reasonable debate disappear and make the flow of the discussion confusing. But.... if the mods 'edit selectively', you always end up with the claim that they are "favoring their friends", even though it was often not clear who did the editing! NO ONE seems to think their own posts are offensive! (Oh.. a few exceptions) Joe got tired of it all.. and had better things to do with his time... and Jeri just made HER position pretty clear above! Max made a point a few years ago when he said (paraphrased): "It's my job to keep the forum running... your job is to make it (something like 'fun/sane/fair/decent')." I wish I could find the thread. If your basic attitude is: "NO ONE gets away with calling ME names or insulting MY sacred cows or mis-stating the political/religious/cultural truths *I* hold dear!".... then, you will be challenged by someone with a different set of those. Now... some treat the 'hot' debates...(insults and all)... as a game, like Bobert's thread on "playing the dozens". They let insults roll off like water off a duck. They revel in being able to be snidely erudite and creatively cutting and giving up and the very idea of letting their opponent **horrors** have the last word is unthinkable! Some, however, take nastiness & insults personally and find such debates detract and demean the entire purpose of being here. They are told, "well, you don't have to open the thread!".... as if that solves the problem. In the threads about our recently departed friend, herself a mod who did as well as any at being 'fair', there are dozens of notes saying "I don't come in here much anymore.." I miss many of those folks. Me? I debate... I discuss...and I have been here since Nov. of 1996! (I actually used to answer music questions, but now there are SO many who know more than me) And I don't think I have EVER called anyone an a*****e or similar thing. I argue.. I dispute.... but I dispute IDEAS and critique facts and reasoning, not individuals qua individuals. Only a couple times in many years have I had to totally stop responding to anyone because they hurled direct insults at me.(ummm ...tempted a few more times? yeah...) Because Mudcat IS a **community** there are things that happen like in a family, a church, a school, a neighborhood...etc. that are awkward, hateful, stupid... as well as loving, helpful, friendly, funny, happy and amazingly insightful! I shall try to emphasize the last part of that sentence... and I ain't goin' nowhere. |
|
28 Jul 13 - 01:54 PM (#3542783) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Musket Must get a copy of Jack's books... Separated by a common language. This side of the pond, winding people up, mainly friends to be fair, is an accepted form of social intercourse. I used to spend long periods in The USA and soon found that it isn't always understood. I accept that I take the piss, and some, OK, one in particular, gets on his high horse as if I shouldn't. You then get the absurd situation where if you aren't being all serious, you shouldn't be posting. I have an answer to that, but to be fair, I agreed to the cease fire so won't say it. SO what happens here is that banter is misconstrued, the other side get all serious, that rubs the other side up the wrong way and before you know it, the bombs get dropped. You also get warfare when someone says something outrageous and hurtful, or when someone generalises and gives you al label you don't recognise. I also agree with those who point out that those moaning about abuse include those happy to dish it out. That said, when assertions are held dear but diametrically opposed by the other side, I doubt consensus can be reached. If one side repeats, the other side does too. Yeah, we have our fair share of bigots, racists and those who reckon we are all going to hell in a hand cart. I even had one UK mudcatter who said that once I stopped being a miner and made my pile, I had no right to go to folk clubs. Work that one out, because be buggered if I can.... You know, being someone who sees himself as one of those aimed at in the OP, the thread itself is amazingly insulting.... |
|
28 Jul 13 - 02:18 PM (#3542791) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Jack the Sailor "What can even the most honest, dedicated, 'neutral' mod do? Delete every trace of the dispute? In many cases, that would make even reasonable debate disappear and make the flow of the discussion confusing. But.... if the mods 'edit selectively', you always end up with the claim that they are "favoring their friends", even though it was often not clear who did the editing! NO ONE seems to think their own posts are offensive! (Oh.. a few exceptions)' No need to delete every trace. Leave the traces. Only step in when the insults have gone past the point of single angry incident. Musket is apparently here, "insulted" arguing for his "right" to tell people to "F*** off" whenever he wants. We, as a community, have to decide if that is a right we want to protect. In my opinion it is not a matter of banning any particular behavior but of stepping in when things get out of hand. For a few people the behavior is well out of hand. |
|
28 Jul 13 - 02:20 PM (#3542792) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: GUEST,Eliza Firstly, I'm so sorry, VirginiaTam that you're feeling so unwell and unable to participate. I've always enjoyed your posts. Hope your health improves, Big Hug. Secondly, I understand what Musket means about the differences in types of banter on each side of the Pond. But often, the nastiness is from Brits to Brits. I've been accused of not being myself(!) and lying, of being 'Fluffy', and had retorts with the F*** word etc which is just so unnecessary and juvenile. As some here have said, one can state one's opinion, but to reiterate with ever-increasing abuse and nastiness gets no-one anywhere. Reading through some threads, one gets the impression that some of the posters are about fourteen years old. (Maybe that's an insult to fourteen year-olds!) The sad thing is, there are some really interesting, worthwhile, wise and informative members here, who also show kindness and support when needed, and they may in time leave because the atmosphere is so unpleasant. That would be a great pity IMO. |
|
28 Jul 13 - 04:07 PM (#3542827) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: dick greenhaus I still want someone to tell me what's worthwhile about Mudcat on Facebook. |
|
28 Jul 13 - 04:11 PM (#3542828) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Megan L You are very welcome Ebbie |
|
28 Jul 13 - 04:25 PM (#3542832) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Amos Dick, it's convenient if you're using Facebook anyway. Otherwise, the original still rules! |
|
28 Jul 13 - 04:31 PM (#3542835) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Bill D " Only step in when the insults have gone past the point of single angry incident. " Ah Jack.... if only... Would YOU like to moderate the vote over when that stage is reached? *wry grin* I once remarked on threads that WERE 'edited' carefully, whereupon an even more acrimonious argument ensued over who was being 'favored', with some demanding to know what had been deleted/edited! The history of the infamous 'Shambles' was interminable meta-debates over the very concept of editing/censorship. It began on one topic, then achieved a life of its own. There IS still some moderate editing... I saw one reference a couple of weeks ago, but no one has the time, much less the stamina, to follow & ride herd on their fellow members. It has been my observation that being edited/deleted invites more rancor, instead of being a useful lesson. ------------------------ Musket: "Separated by a common language" indeed! It is quite true that the game of winding people up is not nearly as common over here....and in an online forum, it is MUCH harder to 'read' the tone and meaning. (You may notice that my posts are often peppered with HTML trick and capitals and punctuation designed to 'sound' as close as possible to conversation so as NOT to have my points misconstrued. (I once... a number of years ago, exchenged PMs with a male from the UK who was making what seemed like very disparaging remarks about a female from the UK. I said, "hey... that ain't nice" and HE said "Oh, we know each other and tease like that all the time...even in person". I replied that, "Yeah...but you are doing it in plain view of hundreds of people who do NOT know either of you!" He got the point and desisted. ------ In 10-15 years, we humans have not developed a lot of rules for this semi-anonymous form of interplay. In real life we can walk away, whack the offender, ask for clarification and maybe resolve the entire thing in a few minutes. Here, the offending exchanges (even gentler ones) last for weeks or longer and linger in thread for years to confuse those who stumble on them by accident. My rule:"If in doubt, use caution & restraint!" It IS possible to use humor and be clever without "playing the dozens" |
|
28 Jul 13 - 04:37 PM (#3542836) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: McGrath of Harlow Ever since I started frequenting the Cat, back in the last millennium, there have been people lamenting how it's so much worse than it used to be, and so unfriendly and so forth. Every now and again people have cropped up who like being a bit nasty. After a while during which there are a few fairly unpleasant threads they tend to calm down, or sometimes get ejected. That's different from the way that most of us, in the course of an argument write stuff that'd be better unwritten. It also ought not to be confused with the way that sometimes we can be too sensitive and ready to take offence, often leading to being too ready to give offene. As the old football slogan goes "Get your retaliation in first" Never a good idea. But most of the time it's friendly enough, and pretty interesting. It's probably true that some people have tranferred their online activity more to Facebook. I just can't get my head round that, too public and to private at the same time. It seems to be all about communicating specifically to one person, and having lots of others listen in. Here most of the time you just talk to the room. But the facebook approach clearly appeals to a lot of us. |
|
28 Jul 13 - 04:43 PM (#3542839) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: akenaton Indeed Bill, but surely cursing directly at other members, calling them obscene nicknames, or wishing them to "stop breathing", is beyond winding-up. There are only three members who stoop to that level...as far as i can see. |
|
28 Jul 13 - 04:54 PM (#3542846) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Steve Shaw They are told, "well, you don't have to open the thread!".... as if that solves the problem. You are a thoughtful fellow, Bill, but, on this point, you are dead wrong. Ask yourself what's really up with someone who persists in opening threads in which they perceive themselves to be up against enemies and insulted and called names. Not much short of insane, I'd say. Not opening threads is your biggest and best weapon. I'm a simple fellow with no real philosophies and I look for simple solutions. Don't open the bloody thread. You have better things to do. Hundreds of thousands of people in Liverpool won't buy The Sun newspaper because The Sun insulted Liverpool people over 20 years ago. The Sun hates that. Murdoch beaten by a boycott. An incredibly powerful weapon. Don't open the bloody thread. But, if you do open the thread, you'd better grow a thick skin if: (a) you're going to preach religious nonsense such as creationism; (b) you're going to insult hard-working scientists by quoting lazy rubbish that you don't even understand yourself; (c) you're going to preach prejudice and intolerance towards homosexuals and women who want to have abortions; (d) you're going to advocate total freedom to own and carry lethal weapons; ...and a host of other illiberal notions (we'll let support for Sheffield Wednesday pass for now). The point is this: if you post ill-informed and intolerant notions, you may not actually be insulting particular individuals but you are insulting whole communities of people. Every time your friend pete comes out with his stupid and ignorant remarks about darwinism [sic] he is insulting thousands of good honest scientists. Whenever Hawk rambles on about evolution having goals and hidden drivers, likewise. They have done the work and he hasn't. People like that can fully expect to be brutally shot down. If they don't like it, don't open the bloody thread. As you fully demonstrate with your cordial relationship with pete, being nice simply doesn't work with people who are determined to be stupid and closed-minded. Closed-mindedness and delusion, especially in matters such as religion (and the royal bloody family this end) often represent the default position. You'll never be popular opposing that, and we know that niceness just gets us a pat on the head. That's the way of the world. So, if you don't like the comeback, just don't open the bloody thread. It's the internet, not the Spanish Inquisition. |
|
28 Jul 13 - 04:57 PM (#3542849) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: gnu ake... guilty as charged. But, I curse at people only when poked. Dick... all of the inconveniences you cited are true. Mudcat is far better on Mudcat. But, I will continue to use FB as an "add-on" and when MC is down. |
|
28 Jul 13 - 05:00 PM (#3542850) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Steve Shaw And I shouldn't have to repeat myself! |
|
28 Jul 13 - 05:34 PM (#3542868) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Ebbie "...your friend pete"; from Steve S to Bill D. I was surprised to learn that SSP is a Brit. Sounds like a Baptist to me. *g* |
|
28 Jul 13 - 05:43 PM (#3542871) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Bill D "I'm a simple fellow with no real philosophies and I look for simple solutions. Don't open the bloody thread." And you choose the most narrow & simplistic possible way to interpret & remark on my point. There are many threads which do not begin as acrimonious mud flinging contests. Those delicate souls may have been participating in a calm, interesting discussion when it turned nasty. It may even have been their thread as OP. I don't know if YOU use the "new posts since last visit" feature, but many do... and they may click on a name or topic that looks interesting before reading a bit and being overwhelmed. It is NOT a simple thing to just advise people to 'stay away'. The printed word 'feels' differently than overhearing a conversation at a gathering and deciding to 'move on' and talk to someone else.... as I said, the thread MAY be on a topic some people would enjoy discussing if it weren't for the sad signal-to-noise ratio! You simply All *I* can do is try to stay on MY course within my basic limits... and hope. |
|
28 Jul 13 - 05:47 PM (#3542874) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Bill D By the way: ".. he is insulting thousands of good honest scientists. " No...he is disagreeing with them on shaky grounds. They know millions of people think like that. They are quite capable of defending themselves. |
|
28 Jul 13 - 06:09 PM (#3542881) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: akenaton gnu's are allowed to behave as they bloody well please! :0) |
|
28 Jul 13 - 06:22 PM (#3542885) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Steve Shaw Do focus, Bill. All day and every day we are confronted with stuff we find distasteful. There is no right to not be offended. The recourse is to switch to another task. To ignore. To not open the bloody thread next time. People like Wacko are only pretending to be oh so bloody delicate and you know it. He opens loads of provocatively-stupid threads then gets in high dudgeon when he gets exactly the treatment he deserves (maybe we should know better, but he does bloody deserve it). There are forums I do not visit because the threads are overrun by illiberal, prejudiced and uninformed rubbish. That does not upset me in the least. I just don't click on the bloody things any more. Simple. As for being thick-skinned, well I learned that from my years of being a leftie trade union politico in my ill-spent youth (I wouldn't change a single day of it). I learned that you challenge the default position at your peril - unless you've grown that hide. The default position here is that religion and scientific ignorance rule. Telling someone that their beliefs are deluded (which they are, and you bloody know it) is honest but will win you few friends. Telling people that they should not pontificate about science they do not understand (cf. Hawk and pete) and you make yourself unpopular, 'cos these are the nice guys. Well tough shit. I'm a nice guy too. But do spare me the bullshit, and spare me the defence of the bullshit. Bullshit from eyes-closed individuals, no matter how gently put, is never well meant. |
|
28 Jul 13 - 06:28 PM (#3542886) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Steve Shaw He is disagreeing with them on the basis of eyes-closed prejudice and no grounds at all. And I'm one of them. And when I fight back against this stupid and ignorant man you castigate me. No wonder he goes on and on and on and... |
|
28 Jul 13 - 06:33 PM (#3542890) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Jack the Sailor Bill, I hear what you are seeing but there are some pretty bold and bright lines that some people are crossing. Shaw's persecution of pete is one of the better examples. He's painted a bulls eye on pete and is determined to attack at every chance. you'd better grow a thick skin if: >>> (a) you're going to preach religious nonsense such as creationism; (b) you're going to insult hard-working scientists by quoting lazy rubbish that you don't even understand yourself; (c) you're going to preach prejudice and intolerance towards homosexuals and women who want to have abortions; (d) you're going to advocate total freedom to own and carry lethal weapons; <<< As you said pete is expressing an opinion without calling names. If you think some one is full of crap, I have no problem with someone saying so a couple of times until they know that their opinion has been heard but this situation goes ways beyond that. Steve is saying that he is going to abuse someone every time that person crosses a line that Steve has drawn in the sand. That is not discussion. It is punishment. |
|
28 Jul 13 - 06:39 PM (#3542893) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Steve Shaw pete is expressing ignorance, prejudice and the dissing of good, honest science. He is perfectly entitled to do that, no matter how insulting it is (and it is). By the same token, I am perfectly entitled to call him out for his proud ignorance. There is no bullseye. That's your florid imagination at work. I have far better things to do than paint bullseyes on people, you silly man. The day pete (or you) says something sensible, I'll rejoice, honestly I will. Should I be holding my breath? |
|
28 Jul 13 - 06:41 PM (#3542896) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: McGrath of Harlow When you disagree with someone, you say you disagree, and explain why you think that you are right and they are wrong. Pretty simple, really. No need to get your knickers in a twist or say you hate and despise them for being wrong. And in life generally that is the way sensible people negotiate their disagreements. Insults should be reserved for friends. |
|
28 Jul 13 - 06:47 PM (#3542897) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Jack the Sailor "Insults should be reserved for friends." That is an excellent point McGrath of Harlow. The problem is not the insults as such it is deliberately insulting someone out of spite. Mr. Shaw is not the only person here who does this. But I have singled him out as the best example because he is the only one to consistently admit it and to in effect claim it as a right. He is a very smart fellow. If compelled to, I am sure that he can think of more civilized ways express his view point. |
|
28 Jul 13 - 06:47 PM (#3542898) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: McGrath of Harlow " I am perfectly entitled to call him out for his proud ignorance" Presumably he is entitled to choice of weapons for the meeting at dawn... But you have to find seconds. |
|
28 Jul 13 - 06:49 PM (#3542900) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Jack the Sailor >>But, if you do open the thread, you'd better grow a thick skin if: (a) you're going to preach religious nonsense such as creationism; (b) you're going to insult hard-working scientists by quoting lazy rubbish that you don't even understand yourself; (c) you're going to preach prejudice and intolerance towards homosexuals and women who want to have abortions; (d) you're going to advocate total freedom to own and carry lethal weapons;<< You had better have a thick skin because Steve Shaw is going to attack you for expressing your opinion. |
|
28 Jul 13 - 06:59 PM (#3542903) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Steve Shaw No...he is disagreeing with them on shaky grounds. They know millions of people think like that. They are quite capable of defending themselves. He is disagreeing with them on no grounds at all. His position is predicated purely on prejudice and ignorance. I happen to be one of the scientists he so freely insults. But when I defend us, as you seem to advocate, it's us who get the flak, not him and his ilk. There ya go. The world of the default position holding sway! |
|
28 Jul 13 - 07:04 PM (#3542907) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Steve Shaw The problem is not the insults as such it is deliberately insulting someone out of spite. Mr. Shaw is not the only person here who does this. But I have singled him out as the best example because he is the only one to consistently admit it and to in effect claim it as a right. ...And your basis for this vituperative claim is what, exactly? |
|
28 Jul 13 - 07:07 PM (#3542910) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Steve Shaw " I am perfectly entitled to call him out for his proud ignorance" Cor, where did you see that? Can't find the damn thing anywhere...! |
|
28 Jul 13 - 07:11 PM (#3542911) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Jack the Sailor Many of your posts have been DELETED Mr. Shaw. |
|
28 Jul 13 - 07:25 PM (#3542916) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: McGrath of Harlow It appears the one in which Steve wrote those words I quoted has been deleted. Strange. I thought it was only supposed to be highly offensive posts that came in for that, and not too many of those. Not just random disagreement. I think it might be better if the Mudcat elves adopted the practice used in some forums(such as the Guardian) of indicating when a post has been deleted. |
|
28 Jul 13 - 07:25 PM (#3542917) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Steve Shaw A couple, Wacko. As with yours, eh! :-) |
|
28 Jul 13 - 07:29 PM (#3542920) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: Steve Shaw It appears the one in which Steve wrote those words I quoted has been deleted. Strange. Yep, a random bit of activity of the type that tends to make nonsense of threads. I do still have that post! Not my gig, so what the hell. |
|
28 Jul 13 - 07:44 PM (#3542924) Subject: RE: BS: Mudcat Community From: McGrath of Harlow I suppose, in light of some peculiar court decisions about online comments being taken as threats of violence, the elf in question might have read those words as being about an intention to inflict lethal violence... but in that case maybe my quote should been removed as well. Perhaps it will be... And how about this one, since it implies the existence of the forbidden one... |