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10 Nov 99 - 12:19 PM (#134136) Subject: Ignoramus University From: MMario I KNOW this will undergo serious thread creep, but actually DO have some serious, if trivial, questions regarding music and music-related "stuff". So - first, let me state I am attending good old Ignoramus University, studying hard for my I.U.D. (I.U. Degree! - one means of stopping idiocy from propagating itself) in the hopes of eventually matriculating at Moron State. As I grow older, one of the many things I have learned is that the more I learn, the less I seem to know. And believe me, reading through threads on the 'Cat, I have found out just how little I know about music!!! I have a couple billion or so questions but will start with a few of the easy ones, anyone can answer. Thread creep welcome, but serious answers as well. 1) Terminology -- can anyone tell me if I have these terms straight? (believe me, I have LOOKED for a definitive answer to this one....) a) song = words and music meant to be performed together b) tune = the music portion of a "song", or an instrumental piece without words c) lyrics - the words set to a "tune" to make a "song" d) score - the musical notation of a tune, which MAY include the lyrics e) libretto - the lyrics to songs, which may or may not include some musical notation f) "air" - a tune which may have lyrics set to it, but also has a more or less independent life as a "tune" 2) People are always making requests for Lyrics and chords for various songs. Does this mean they already KNOW the melody line? Or can the melody line somehow be determined from the chords? I know that by some arcane method I have no hope of ever understanding the chords can be derived from the melody but is the inverse also true? 3) If the above requestors DON'T already know the melody line, and can't derive it from the chords (which I am assuming is true) then what good will having the lyrics and chords do them? Or do people just improvise a melody line to the chords? |
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10 Nov 99 - 12:26 PM (#134139) Subject: RE: BS: Ignoramus University From: Bert 1)f). I've always thought of 'air' to mean 'melody' or the recognizable part of a tune. 2)They THINK the know the melody line. |
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10 Nov 99 - 12:26 PM (#134140) Subject: RE: BS: Ignoramus University From: Bert 1)f). I've always thought of 'air' to mean 'melody' or the recognizable part of a tune. 2)They THINK they know the melody line. |
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10 Nov 99 - 12:29 PM (#134142) Subject: RE: BS: Ignoramus University From: Allan C. A - F, seem correct to me, but I might be totally wrong. My answers for the rest of your questions are: Probably, Possibly, Highly Unlikely, Probably Not Of Much Use and Sometimes. |
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10 Nov 99 - 12:32 PM (#134146) Subject: RE: BS: Ignoramus University From: Bert Only in Country Music can the melody be derived from the chords;-) |
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10 Nov 99 - 12:43 PM (#134154) Subject: RE: BS: Ignoramus University From: Tony Burns MMario, Are you looking for formal definitions or trying to find out how Mudders use these terms? 1) You will find dictionary definitions at A Web of Online Dictionaries for all the terms you listed. 2) Usually. 3) You can make up a tune knowing the words and chords. If it is the same as the original it is strickly coincidence. However it might be better. Note that words and chords do not necessarily give you the time signature or tempo. |
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10 Nov 99 - 01:04 PM (#134165) Subject: RE: BS: Ignoramus University From: MMario tony - I guess I'm looking for the way MudCatters use the terms. As you know, dictionary definitions are not always valid in "real life" |
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10 Nov 99 - 01:47 PM (#134185) Subject: RE: BS: Ignoramus University From: Bert Mudcat terms include words like 'tadpoles' and 'blue clicky things' |
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10 Nov 99 - 01:50 PM (#134188) Subject: RE: BS: Ignoramus University From: MMario bert- you bin metamorphing again? |
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10 Nov 99 - 02:37 PM (#134208) Subject: RE: BS: Ignoramus University From: Mbo I derive ALL the melodies in the songs I write from the chords. I always thing of chord progressions first, then the melody develops out of that. I can count on one hand how many times I'll actually "thought up" a melody. Also it seems to me that an "air" is always rather slow or relaxed (at least it is in pipe music.) --Mbo |
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10 Nov 99 - 02:39 PM (#134211) Subject: RE: BS: Ignoramus University From: Bert all the time MMario. |
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10 Nov 99 - 02:48 PM (#134216) Subject: RE: BS: Ignoramus University From: MMario Mbo - I can see how that would work WRITING a song, but what has confused me is the number of requests for lyrics and chords for existing songs, but rarely does anyone ask for the melody line or the "tune" |
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10 Nov 99 - 03:08 PM (#134222) Subject: RE: BS: Ignoramus University From: Fortunato |
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10 Nov 99 - 03:16 PM (#134224) Subject: RE: BS: Ignoramus University From: dick greenhaus MMario- FWIW, you use the terms the way I do. I prefer tune to melody because it has fewer keystrokes, and because air h, at least in Celtic music, has a specialized meaning. Irish musicians, in particular, sometimes refer to a song (melody and lyrics) as a tune, but this authority disagrees. |
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10 Nov 99 - 03:37 PM (#134235) Subject: RE: BS: Ignoramus University From: Metchosin What does a bridge mean? My brother recently told me that he had written a bridge to a poem of mine that he has set to music for his next CD. I thought he meant he had written the chorus. Is the bridge the music to the chorus? My daughter who studies classical music says bridge is something entirely different than the chorus. |
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10 Nov 99 - 03:44 PM (#134238) Subject: RE: BS: Ignoramus University From: MMario Is this a quiz! I didn't study! oops! sorry. lemmee see if my answer is the same as others. a "bridge" is a transitional piece between two portions of a tune or song. It is my understanding that this is 1) virtually always instrumental (though I have heard someone talk about a vocal bridge they heard someone perform) and 2) usually a variation on some major motif in the tune, but not usually something found in the major portion.
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10 Nov 99 - 04:01 PM (#134251) Subject: RE: BS: Ignoramus University From: Metchosin Thanks MMario, thats what my daughter said too...so can the bridge be the music to the chorus or does it just lead up to the chorus? |
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10 Nov 99 - 04:05 PM (#134257) Subject: RE: BS: Ignoramus University From: MMario you've got me! I would guess that "technically" the chorus could be a bridge between the verses, but in practice would never be referred to as such. However, I could see someone taking an insturmental bridge, setting lyrics to it and transforming it into a chorus....Does anyone out there have a more informed opinion? Or shall Metchosin and I just discuss this amongst our various personalities? |
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10 Nov 99 - 04:27 PM (#134269) Subject: RE: BS: Ignoramus University From: Metchosin Actually I'm back on track again and feeling just fine now, thank you very much. The old Docs got my medication figured out. Seems all I need was the whiskey. |
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10 Nov 99 - 04:31 PM (#134273) Subject: RE: BS: Ignoramus University From: Metchosin I don't want to ask my brother what he meant by it. He'd just belittle me for being dumb, to make up for all the times when we were small and I pinned him to the floor and threatened to spit on him. |
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10 Nov 99 - 04:52 PM (#134280) Subject: RE: BS: Ignoramus University From: Llanfair Back to the tunes! It's usually the tune that attracts me to a song, and if the words give me goose pimples, then I have to learn it, requiring all the words and the chords. Sometimes I can work the chords out from the tune. The thing is, tunes stick in my head, there are always songs in there somewhere, but, talking to other people, I have learned IMPORTANT TRUTH No.1.......Not everyone hears tunes in their heads!!!!!!! IMPORTANT TRUTH No.2.......People who DON'T have tunes in their heads think that those of us that do are barmy!!!! Hwyl, Bron. (dum dum de de dum) |
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10 Nov 99 - 04:54 PM (#134281) Subject: RE: BS: Ignoramus University From: lloyd61 A bridge was originally used to link two different pieces of music, but today it is used within the same piece of music. It normally is not repetitive so it would not be a chorus. I have a "Bridge" for I'll fly away. It is used after the last chorus to slow the song down and change the mood. A finale chorus, up to tempo, then finishes the song off. It works. I guess a bridge today is what every you wish it to be, it has evolved. An "Air", I have no Idea. I thought it was a Tune which is played while serving Wine. |
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10 Nov 99 - 05:06 PM (#134287) Subject: RE: BS: Ignoramus University From: Metchosin Thanks LLoyd61, maybe I can give him a bad time about being sloppy with his terms if he was referring to the chorus and do a little more metaphorical spitting. |
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10 Nov 99 - 06:43 PM (#134311) Subject: RE: BS: Ignoramus University From: John of the Hill MMario, The requests for lyric and chords are understandable to a guitar hacker like me. In music theory you can have more than one option for a chord choice, so its helpful to see the choice of someone you hope is more adept than yourself. Seeing the lyrics and chords together can also make it easier to work out bass runs, fills, and other wrinkles to accompany the song. I guess what I am trying to say is that the chords aren't used to figure out the melody, they are to help figure out the backing. John |
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10 Nov 99 - 11:44 PM (#134479) Subject: RE: BS: Ignoramus University From: me Stunned I am! there are people who live without tunes in their heads? with a mind that is out of tune, how does one face life day after day, and most importantly, why would one even want to? |
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11 Nov 99 - 02:56 AM (#134515) Subject: RE: BS: Ignoramus University From: Llanfair The fates are kind,Me, those without tunes in their heads don't KNOW they haven't. It's the kindest thing, really. Hwyl, Bron. |
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11 Nov 99 - 08:01 AM (#134551) Subject: RE: BS: Ignoramus University From: Steve Parkes In modern (i.e. Tin Pan Alley) terms, the bridge is part of what's called the 32-bar chorus, the standard TPA song format. Take the Beatles' "Hard day's night", for example. You have two of what we folkies would call verses of four lines apiece: "It's been a hard day's night ..", "You know I work all day ..". Then you have the bridge - same size "verse", but different tune: "When I'm home ..". And then back to the original tune: "It's been a hard day's night ...". As MMario says, the bridge has a definition in "proper" music, which has been pinched by common songsters. And why not? Steve |
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11 Nov 99 - 08:14 AM (#134554) Subject: RE: BS: Ignoramus University From: Allan C. A bridge is how you get from where you were to where you're going. |
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11 Nov 99 - 08:16 AM (#134555) Subject: RE: BS: Ignoramus University From: Allan C. ...without necessarily touching the same ground. |
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11 Nov 99 - 10:35 AM (#134583) Subject: RE: BS: Ignoramus University From: Just to add a little to what's gone before: I think it's safe to say that when someone requests chords and/or lyrics, they know the melody. Typically they've heard the song enough for that, but not enough to have memorized all the words. Depending on the complexity of the chord sequence and the individual's talent and skill level for deducing chording, the chords may or may not fall readily into hand. When they don't, or if there's doubt for any reason, it's helpful to see what the "official" chords are, or at least someone else's take on it. In my experience, a chorus is a repeated portion of the song, usually sung after each verse, and suitable for being used as the end. Bridges typically are of such a nature (musically unresolved, perhaps?) that they don't sound like you're "done", and one feels compelled to proceed to the verse or chorus. Some songs have verses only, some have verses and a bridge, some have verses and a chorus, and some have verses, bridge, and chorus. Some choruses have the same melody as the verse, some don't. Most choruses are identical throughout the song, but in some cases the words to the chorus are partly different after each verse. If pressed, I could recall examples of each of these. Hope this helps. |
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11 Nov 99 - 11:03 AM (#134590) Subject: RE: BS: Ignoramus University From: Gary T I guess I forgot to put my name in on that last post. For "just adding a little" it got pretty long-winded! Gary T |
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12 Nov 99 - 12:43 AM (#134924) Subject: RE: BS: Ignoramus University From: _gargoyle 1. All of the above
2. None of the above
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12 Nov 99 - 01:31 AM (#134936) Subject: RE: BS: Ignoramus University From: ddw coming in late as usual... Sure there are people who don't have tunes in their heads. That's why somebody invented Muzak — so they could feel normal and the rest of us who do have our own tunes would go nuts. I'm in a bit of a hurry and didn't read all the entries, but in all the speculation about a definition for a bridge did anyone get around to saying it's usually a varient of the chord pattern as well as the melody line. Lots of country musicians use them all the time — Willie Nelson springs to mind, and Ed Bruce — but so did Bob Dylan. A good example of a bridge is the "odd" verse in Just Like A Woman. Or, at least, that's the kind of thing I've always heard referred to as a bridge. Could be wrong. Often am. have a great weekend people, davd — outa here.
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12 Nov 99 - 01:45 AM (#134938) Subject: RE: BS: Ignoramus University From: Metchosin Thank you Allan and Steve, I think I should really listen more closely to what he has done and will probably discover that he has written both a bridge and lyrics and melody for the chorus, all spitting forgotten. |
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12 Nov 99 - 02:12 AM (#134943) Subject: RE: BS: Ignoramus University From: Metchosin And thank you Gary |
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12 Nov 99 - 02:15 AM (#134944) Subject: RE: BS: Ignoramus University From: Metchosin Jeez us Kenajuns eh, wer jist so dam polite it makes ya puke |
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12 Nov 99 - 03:28 AM (#134949) Subject: Lyr Add: CAN'T HELP LOVIN' DAT MAN From: bseed(charleskratz) Most of the songs that were popular as I was growing up were of the 32-bar variety: The pattern for the first, second, and fourth quarter (eight bars) of the song is the same, both melodically and poetically. CAN'T HELP LOVIN' DAT MAN (from Showboat)
Fish gotta swim, birds gotta fly, --seed |
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12 Nov 99 - 04:23 AM (#134958) Subject: RE: BS: Ignoramus University From: Banjer OK, let me further muddle the waters...If a bridge is a connector of sorts between verses then what is it folks refer to as a 'turn around'? Or is that just a slangy term for a bridge? While I usually have a tune of some sort in my head, I'm sure there are those that don't...for you see, sound cannot travel in a vacuum! |
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12 Nov 99 - 07:21 AM (#134965) Subject: RE: BS: Ignoramus University From: Micca Hey Bron, I suppose the only up side to not having tunes in their heads is they don't suffer from "Squirreling". You know, when you get a tune, or more often part of a tune/song stuck in you head for bloody days and can't get rid of it, It is usually (tho'not always) some crap TV commercial tho' after festivals I have been caught quietly singing "I'm glad,glad very very glad I'm glad I'm a gladiator". |
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12 Nov 99 - 09:38 AM (#135012) Subject: RE: BS: Ignoramus University From: jeffp What I generally refer to as a turnaround is a two- or four-bar instrumental phrase at the end of a verse (or chorus if there is one) which serves as an intro to the next verse. This allows the audience some time to absorb what has gone before and prepare for what's coming. It also allows me to catch my breath for more singing. I will frequently use the turnaround phrase as an outro of sorts, sometimes leading up to a "big finish(tm)" |
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12 Nov 99 - 11:03 AM (#135041) Subject: RE: BS: Ignoramus University From: Gary T BSeed's examples and reference to the groups of eight bars reminded me that Lennon and McCartney referred to the bridge as the "middle eight", being an eight bar segment of the song that was different from, and basically in the middle of, the verses. During their earlier years, when they were actually collaborating, Paul would write the middle eight for songs that John wrote the verses to, and vice versa. Later, they each wrote their own entire songs, but still listed both names as writers because that was their agreement from when they started out. |
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12 Nov 99 - 05:32 PM (#135213) Subject: RE: BS: Ignoramus University From: Metchosin Had lunch with my brother today who informed me he didn't write a chorus he wrote a bridge and that I had misunderstood. |