Instruments destroyed at JFK customs

31 Dec 13 - 02:28 PM (#3587908)
Subject: Instruments destroyed at JFK customs
From: treewind

Musical Instruments are "agricultural products"

I'm lost for words...

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31 Dec 13 - 02:41 PM (#3587911)
Subject: RE: Instruments destroyed at JFK customs
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity

I'd sue the fuck out of the police state...and take it to higher courts if necessary..and toss in any loss of income as well!

GfS

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31 Dec 13 - 06:03 PM (#3587947)
Subject: RE: Instruments destroyed at JFK customs
From: Larry The Radio Guy

Treewind, I can't get the link to work for me. It just keeps uploading.

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31 Dec 13 - 07:35 PM (#3587971)
Subject: RE: Instruments destroyed at JFK customs
From: Don Firth

I just look up Boujemaa Razgui. He travels the world giving concerts with his miscellaneous flutes, and often performs with groups like the Boston Camerata. If I were him, I'd get a killer attorney and sue those officious XXXXXXXs until they've nothing left but their Jockey shorts.   And then go after the officials who hired them.

I can just envision someone like John Williams coming through JFK with his Ignacio Fleta classic guitar with its Brazilian rosewood back and sides and red cedar soundboard, having them declaring it an "agricultural product," and turning it into kindling!

Bloody insane!!

Add horse whipping to the law suit!

Don Firth

P. S. Wait 'til someone like Itzhak Perlman comes through customs at JFK with his $3,000,000 Stradivarius violin!

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31 Dec 13 - 08:19 PM (#3587977)
Subject: RE: Instruments destroyed at JFK customs
From: Richard Bridge

There seems to be not a lot of information.

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31 Dec 13 - 08:55 PM (#3587990)
Subject: RE: Instruments destroyed at JFK customs
From: Don Firth

I flew back and forth between Seattle and Denver several times a couple of decades ago, and I requested that my guitar not be put in with the other baggage. A United Airlines official carried it on board and put it in the coat closet, nice and secure.

Some years later, I was flying from Grand Rapids, Michigan to Chicago, and "Ruptured Duck" commuter airlines insisted on putting my guitar in with the baggage. They wouldn't let it be carried on board the plane except in the baggage compartment. I remembered how Segovia said he traveled with his guitar and I bought a child's ticket. $30.00. That seemed to satisfy them. A flight attendant carried it on board and strapped it into the seat beside me.

From Chicago back to Seattle, no problem. A flight attendant put it in the coat closet and wedged it securely in (it was in a hard-shell case, of course).

But that was a few years back. I've heard a number of real horror stories since!

Don Firth

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31 Dec 13 - 09:26 PM (#3587995)
Subject: RE: Instruments destroyed at JFK customs
From: Larry The Radio Guy

Quite shocking!   It should certainly be brought to the attention of the media. May be more effective than any lawsuit.

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31 Dec 13 - 10:00 PM (#3588004)
Subject: RE: Instruments destroyed at JFK customs
From: McGrath of Harlow

Better not try to enter the States wearing any garments made from wool or cotton. Or boots made of leather. Or carrying books or newspapers of course...

Clearly not a place to go to if you've a choice.

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31 Dec 13 - 10:34 PM (#3588009)
Subject: RE: Instruments destroyed at JFK customs
From: Don Firth

There is such a thing as a "grandfather clause" in intelligently written laws. The elephant that contributed it's tusks to the piano keys is long since dead. Also--is the customs agent competent to tell the difference between ivory and plastic or other materials?

The Brazilian rosewood tree that contributed to the back and sides of my guitar was felled many decades ago and contributed its wood to a whole bunch of quality guitars. Many years ago because the wood was aged for a number of decades before the luthier selected it for use in constructing a guitar.

Don Firth

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01 Jan 14 - 02:31 AM (#3588027)
Subject: RE: Instruments destroyed at JFK customs
From: GUEST

Bizarre bizarre bureaucracy

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01 Jan 14 - 05:07 AM (#3588041)
Subject: RE: Instruments destroyed at JFK customs
From: GUEST,Peter Laban

Pianos with ivory keys ... even if owned and played by Chopin ... cannot enter the USA.

I think you'll find there's an age clause in CITES. Ivory items produced before a certain date are exempt. So a piano owned by Chopin would have no problem, if accompanied by the appropriate paperwork.

People travel with antique instruments all the time.

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01 Jan 14 - 09:08 AM (#3588091)
Subject: RE: Instruments destroyed at JFK customs
From: GUEST

Larry, here's the article:

'JFK Customs destroyed 11 of my instruments'
December 31, 2013 by Norman Lebrecht 120 Comments

A few minutes ago, we reached the flute virtuoso Boujemaa Razgui by phone to discuss the assault on his instruments by US Customs at JFK airport.
A Canadian citizen, based in New York and with a green card employment permit, Bouzemaa was flying home from Marrakech, Morocco, when his baggage was opened by Customs at JFK.
'I told them I had these instruments for many years and flew with them in and out,' he said. 'There were 11 instruments in all. They told me they were agricultural products and they had to be destroyed. There was nothing I could do. The ney flute can be made with bamboo. Is that agricultural?'
Bouzemaa was both upset and unwilling to risk a confrontation with the US authorities. We did not press him for further particulars. He does not know what to do next. But he does appear to be the victim of state injustice. What do the lawyers among our readers think he should do?
Bouzemaa's contact details have been sent to journalists on the New York Times and the Boston Globe. Let's see if they take up the story.

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01 Jan 14 - 09:34 AM (#3588093)
Subject: RE: Instruments destroyed at JFK customs
From: GUEST,Rev Bayes

Yet another story of destroyed instruments through non-compliance.

The rule is simple: if you are crossing a border, ENSURE that your instrument is compliant with the rules. If you're not certain, leave it behind.   

Some sort of pre-compliance program is desperately needed for international travel, but people also need to realise that they are subject to these rules and that because they got away with it once, or many times, does not mean that you are not breaking a rule of some sort.

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01 Jan 14 - 09:54 AM (#3588097)
Subject: RE: Instruments destroyed at JFK customs
From: Jeri

I'm pretty sure the intsruments were compliant, but the person who had them destroyed didn't know what he/she was doing. You can't bring fresh stuff in, nor some types of wood. Bamboo flutes shouldn't be a problem.

Article in Boston Globe

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01 Jan 14 - 01:51 PM (#3588162)
Subject: RE: Instruments destroyed at JFK customs
From: Don Firth

Rey Bayes:

"The rule is simple: if you are crossing a border, ENSURE that your instrument is compliant with the rules. If you're not certain, leave it behind."

That's all very glib, but the fact is that professional (and some non-professional) musicians travel with their instruments all the time. Certain materials have recently been proscribed as a result of recent environmental laws (e.g., the deforestation of the Brazilian rain forest—one of the major sources of the oxygen we breathe—and the ban on importation of Brazilian rosewood). This is all to the good, but to ban certain materials, materials that were used to make musical instruments before the laws were enacted, will make it impossible for touring musicians to continue their career. And deny audiences the chance to hear them.

Andrés Segovia's José Ramirez guitar has a Brazilian rosewood back and sides. That guitar was made long before the ban went in, and such instruments should be "grandfathered" into the law and be exempt.

What if maple were proscribed and all products made of maple were to be banned? There would be customs agents smashing rare, multi-million dollar violins, like Amati's and Stradivari's!

That qualifies as an atrocity, and a crime against music.

Rather than not take my guitar with me on a trip, I just bloody-well won't go!

Or—some decades ago, operatic soprano Victoria de los Angeles sang a concert in Seattle. One of the promoters asked her if she would include a few of the Spanish folk songs she occasionally sang into her program. She would, except she always accompanied them on the guitar and she hadn't brought her guitar with her. I got a phone call from him asking me if she could borrow my guitar for the concert. I agreed.   I got a free ticket to the concert.

But having to arrange to borrow a suitable guitar (or violin, or cello, etc) in every city on your concert itinerary would be a totally needless pain in the ass!!

Don Firth

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01 Jan 14 - 02:35 PM (#3588168)
Subject: RE: Instruments destroyed at JFK customs
From: Leadfingers

It is rapidly becoming a more viable option to buy an instrument whereever you travel rather than take your own - Aoart from the possibility of bagage mishandlers , its now nearly as expensive to have another item of hold baggage as to fly .

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01 Jan 14 - 05:57 PM (#3588206)
Subject: RE: Instruments destroyed at JFK customs
From: Sandra in Sydney

quote from article -

A Canadian citizen, based in New York and with a green card employment permit, Bouzemaa was flying home from Marrakech, Morocco, when his baggage was opened by Customs at JFK.
'I told them I had these instruments for many years and flew with them in and out,'...


so it would appear the instruments were compliant when they left New York but not when they returned

snadra

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01 Jan 14 - 06:18 PM (#3588209)
Subject: RE: Instruments destroyed at JFK customs
From: GUEST

They don't care what you leave with. They care what you return with.

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01 Jan 14 - 07:20 PM (#3588223)
Subject: RE: Instruments destroyed at JFK customs
From: McGrath of Harlow

So it's not about the instruments being made from "agricultural products", but because they are said to contain stuff that's subject to a ban, such as elephant ivory. How very confusing. Since when has elephant ivory been any kind of "agricultural product" anyway?

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01 Jan 14 - 07:33 PM (#3588227)
Subject: RE: Instruments destroyed at JFK customs
From: Mark Ross

Trade in elephant ivory is one of the things that's on the no-fly list. It's also on the no ship by air/boat/train list.
It's something called The Lacey Act, which was passed over a hundred years ago.

From Wikipedia;
The Lacey Act protects both plants and wildlife by creating civil and criminal penalties for a wide array of violations. It prohibits trade in wildlife, fish, and plants that have been illegally taken, transported or sold. The law is still in effect, although it has been amended several times.


Mark Ross

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01 Jan 14 - 08:01 PM (#3588234)
Subject: RE: Instruments destroyed at JFK customs
From: Gurney

Well, if you came here to NZ with instruments that looked as if they were NOT professionally made, you would need a certificate of sterilisation, or you could pay to have them taken away, sterilised, and sent on to you. With a certificate. Radiation, heat treatment, etc. We too protect our agriculture, and passengers could be lying.

One of our constant TV programmes is about border security by the Agriculture and Fisheries authority, and passengers come in with things made from the likes of gourds and raw wood, -or grass, in the case of that flute,- and not by a luthier but in a village workshop, and they have to get them sterilised or they're taken away from them. Same deal for fishing tackle and farm equipment, particularly from some parts of the world. There are as many dogs sniffing out food and plant products as there are drug dogs at the airports here.
DON'T bring unprocessed food here, and DON'T lie about it.

On the other hand, people who know the system just get the certificate.
I saw one programme where a hunter brought in a recently killed bearskin and other trophies with no trouble at all. He was local and he'd followed the procedure.

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02 Jan 14 - 01:26 AM (#3588259)
Subject: RE: Instruments destroyed at JFK customs
From: GUEST,Stim

It may be that it was easier for the agents to seize and destroy than to manage the appropriate paper work, or that counting 11 instruments was too challenging...

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02 Jan 14 - 03:03 AM (#3588262)
Subject: RE: Instruments destroyed at JFK customs
From: GUEST

ignorant thugs in uniforms


history continues to repeat itself

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02 Jan 14 - 05:16 AM (#3588292)
Subject: RE: Instruments destroyed at JFK customs
From: Leadfingers

Immigration and border control employees are a law unto themselves , especially in my opinion at JFK . An iem in my cabin baggage was perfectley accptable to carry IN to JFK fromm Heathrow, but not permitted from JFK to Richmond VA !

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02 Jan 14 - 06:45 AM (#3588307)
Subject: RE: Instruments destroyed at JFK customs
From: GUEST,.gargoyle

Polish pianist Krystian Zimmerman is one of the world's greatest living pianists. Shortly after 9/11, customs officials at New York City's JFK airport confiscated and destroyed his piano. They thought the glue smelled "funny" and deemed it to be a risk to national security.


Krystian Zimerman speaks
By Jim Lowe
October 20,2006
Barre Montpelliar TIMES ARGUS

I find that if I have (the ideal) piano for the second movement of (Beethoven's) "Pathetique" (Sonata), I would like to bring it with me and show it to the people – and I would pay any money to do it.

oesn't traveling with your own piano cause all sorts of travel problems?

I don't like to create a negative impression during this interview. But, due to the developments in politics in the last five years, I lost two pianos on the borders, because when people see a big black case, which smells of all kinds of chemicals, they go for it. They destroyed one piano completely; the other, they ripped out the keyboard. I lost another keyboard going to Japan in April, here in the JFK Airport in New York. So, it becomes really, really difficult.

So, instead, you transport the innards from your piano in Europe to a shell in the States?

I have parts of the instrument there, and I bring them over in the plane, and then I assemble it here. And then I put it into the instrument I know and have used for years here.

I sort of bring this soul of what I want to do. It means also that I have to put two weeks between the last concert in Europe and the first concert in America.


www.timesargus.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061020/NEWS/610200328/1011/FEATURES02

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

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02 Jan 14 - 06:47 AM (#3588308)
Subject: RE: Instruments destroyed at JFK customs
From: Stu

Wow.

The real issue here is the musician was too scared by the US officials to remonstrate with them in case he ended up in Cuba wearing orange overalls with some feckless dirt wad water boarding him and force-feeding him like a fois-gras goose.

What an enlightened world we have built for ourselves.

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02 Jan 14 - 09:11 AM (#3588341)
Subject: RE: Instruments destroyed at JFK customs
From: Mr Red

FWIW Bamboo is one of the fastest growing woods. So any sustainability argument is missing the obvious. And from what the articles seem to say - the flutes or at lest some - were made in the US.

Idiosyncratic decision is putting at its most polite.

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02 Jan 14 - 10:23 AM (#3588362)
Subject: RE: Instruments destroyed at JFK customs
From: Mr Happy

Is USA the only place this happens with instruments?

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02 Jan 14 - 06:54 PM (#3588505)
Subject: RE: Instruments destroyed at JFK customs
From: Mr Happy

Is it a secret?

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03 Jan 14 - 04:04 AM (#3588578)
Subject: RE: Instruments destroyed at JFK customs
From: Gibb Sahib

I can post even more draconian escopades at Heathrow.

There is an Australian TV program that's been on the air over a decade that just shows similar things all the time... "Border Security" or something like that. Similar programs have been made for UK and Canada. Everyone's shit stinks.

Doesn't mean, though, that this case wasn't one of abject stupidity on someone's part. Problem is, the reports sound really fishy. Just because I believe Customs agents have the potential to be dumb or insensitive, I am not going to believe that they were in this case without evidence; the story is very one-sided.

On a side note, the bandmates of this fellow (the musician) were acquaintances of mine in a former life, and I hear from/about them from time to time, so perhaps the full details will come 'round.

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03 Jan 14 - 04:19 AM (#3588579)
Subject: RE: Instruments destroyed at JFK customs
From: Gibb Sahib

Cuban musician's instruments, at Australia port.
http://youtu.be/kUlyvY_fXpM?t=2m36s

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03 Jan 14 - 05:20 AM (#3588592)
Subject: RE: Instruments destroyed at JFK customs
From: Nigel Parsons

The link (above) to the Boston Globe seems to tell a different story:
When his baggage arrived in Boston, the instruments were gone. He was instead given a number to call. "They told me they were destroyed" This seems to suggest that the instruments were not destroyed in his presence, & he only discovered the fact later.

Even the original link gives the following:
'I told them I had these instruments for many years and flew with them in and out,' he said. 'There were 11 instruments in all. They told me they were agricultural products and they had to be destroyed. There was nothing I could do. The ney flute can be made with bamboo. Is that agricultural?'
This looks to me like a very evasive comment, and would make me suspicious if I was working for the border force. He says "the ney flute can be made with bamboo". He appears to be carefully not stating that they are made of bamboo.

I think I'll wait for more information before charging in accusing the people involved of being wrong in their actions, or of having a racial motivation.

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03 Jan 14 - 10:30 AM (#3588673)
Subject: RE: Instruments destroyed at JFK customs
From: meself

I wouldn't rush to read motives into quotations from the musician - I've heard him speaking on radio a couple of times, and his English is quite limited. At times he did not seem to grasp the point of the journalists' questions; his answers were 'wide of the mark' - in a way that, taken out of context or simply written down, might seem 'evasive'.

One thing that did emerge, however, was that he seemed to have had several green bamboo stalks packed along with the flutes - unfortunately, the interviewer did not pursue and clarify this point, so that could have been some kind of a language-muddle too.

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03 Jan 14 - 10:35 AM (#3588675)
Subject: RE: Instruments destroyed at JFK customs
From: GUEST,Rev Bayes

>>such instruments should be "grandfathered" into the law and be exempt.

I agree, and indeed such grandfathering is commonplace, although it usually requires its own certification. However, the onus is on you, the traveller, full stop. Crying after the fact doesn't change anything. And yes, there are places I won't travel with my instruments.

As for local laws, the Lacey Act is extremely problematic. Frankly, without wishing to point fingers, the US is the most difficult jurisdiction I've dealt with.

As for the current story, I agree, lots of bits missing.

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03 Jan 14 - 05:48 PM (#3588799)
Subject: RE: Instruments destroyed at JFK customs
From: Gibb Sahib

Not to be pedantic, but nay-s/ ney-s are usually made from a sort of cane. They are considered "reed flutes," not bamboo. (Perhaps they thought people would get confused by the word "reed," thinking it meant a vibrating detachable reed as in a sax, etc.) These end-blown flutes don't contain anything like that. It's probably irrelevant, but that's been bugging me!

I have many friends I used to perform with that kept a selection of nay-s. The more "serious" musicians used a flat (shallow) hard case, lined with plush material - kind of like a gigantic cigarette case. Never heard any talk of scarcity of the reed material - which grows like a "grass" along the Nile, for one. However, the flutes must be obtained from that region, and I don't mean to sound as if contradicting the sense of trouble felt by losing them!

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06 Aug 14 - 06:58 PM (#3648920)
Subject: RE: Instruments destroyed at JFK customs
From: maeve

In a related story: http://news.yahoo.com/teens-bagpipes-seized-us-border-over-ivory-175653331.html

Teens' bagpipes seized at US border over ivory
Associated Press    By RIK STEVENS August 5, 2014 4:49 PM

"CONCORD, N.H. (AP) — The skirl of their pipes had barely receded before two New Hampshire teenagers learned a hard lesson in cross-border musical diplomacy: If your bagpipes have ivory in them, leave them at home before traveling to Canada or risk having them seized at the border..." The rest of the story will be found at the link.

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07 Aug 14 - 11:24 AM (#3649106)
Subject: RE: Instruments destroyed at JFK customs
From: GUEST

Let's be precise, please, Maeve: the report says they were seized by the US Customs and Border Protection on returning to the US. One of the sets was most certainly older than the embargo covers, but that made no difference: on the other hands, the non-ivory parts are supposed to be forwarded. How they separate them without causing serious damage is another question.
I feel sorry for the lads, but let this be a warning to all who deal with the US: equip yourself with a long spoon.

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07 Aug 14 - 01:30 PM (#3649146)
Subject: RE: Instruments destroyed at JFK customs
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

The bagpipes will be returned according to Customs.
Imitation ivory parts are readily available.

Apparently their CITES certificates were out-dated.

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07 Aug 14 - 02:04 PM (#3649152)
Subject: RE: Instruments destroyed at JFK customs
From: Richard Bridge

Neither of those things are what I heard Q

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07 Aug 14 - 06:36 PM (#3649213)
Subject: RE: Instruments destroyed at JFK customs
From: maeve

Any precision I needed to invoke for this story is within the link and exact quote. Further research is always warranted. I thought some might find it of interest.

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07 Aug 14 - 07:45 PM (#3649224)
Subject: RE: Instruments destroyed at JFK customs
From: Nigel Parsons

A slightly different take on it from CNN
And yes, I'm picking out parts only, hence the link above:
When he arrived in New York on December 22, his suitcase with the instruments and materials he purchased in Morocco to make new instruments was not there. He was told the bag would be in Boston, but when he arrived, he obtained an empty suitcase without his prized instruments inside. . . .

A spokesperson from U.S. Customs and Border Protection said Razgui did not claim his bag at JFK. Typically, passengers clear immigration and are subject to customs inspections based on what they declare to have brought into the United States, the Customs spokesperson said. Razgui was not present for the inspection because he did not claim his bag. . . .

While he is sad to lose the instruments and the materials, he said he would have forfeited the reeds he purchased in Morocco if it meant keeping his instruments. . . .

In the past, he said, his instruments have been subject to increased scrutiny by Customs officials, but he has never had his instruments confiscated. . . .

So it seems he shouldn't have been too surprised. If he knows he's been subject to increased scrutiny why let his baggage travel unattended?

While visiting family in Morocco, Razgui traveled to seven cities to find the right materials to bring home to make additional flutes, he said.

Of course, if he's been sourcing new material (bamboo?) and carries it with the old material (his flutes) then he needs to be present when his baggage is checked, in order to explain that it's not all new.

He has my sympathy for the loss of the instruments, but I feel that, to some extent, he brought it on himself. And now by giving quotes which tell only part of the story he, and people who re-post it unchecked, are vilifying the American Customs team (possibly) unfairly.

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07 Aug 14 - 08:07 PM (#3649229)
Subject: RE: Instruments destroyed at JFK customs
From: GUEST

CITES certificates out-dated? Either they predated the ut-off or they didn't, the validity of a certificate has nothing to do with that. Some money-grubbing bureaucrat is forcing the world to pay him a ticket for life, methinks.

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