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25 Feb 14 - 04:09 AM (#3604613) Subject: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Joe Offer I saw Facebook messages this evening from two wonderful young women, each proclaiming their love for the young men they're with. I clicked the "like" button for them, but I'm not at all impressed by the men they've fallen for. These are good, intelligent, loving women - and I'm afraid they are going to be abused, at least mentally, by the men they've chosen. Both of these women have had children by men who abandoned them and the children, and both have dated men who have criminal records. These two women are wonderful, but the guys they pick are horrible. Why does this happen? I hate to say anything negative to them to destroy the joy they have when their relationships are good, but my heart just aches for them. Why? why? Why? -Joe- |
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25 Feb 14 - 04:20 AM (#3604616) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Pete Jennings Disregarding their past relationships, what makes you think that their current "good" relationships will go wrong? |
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25 Feb 14 - 04:51 AM (#3604623) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Richard Bridge Joe - I agree. Pete, those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. |
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25 Feb 14 - 05:00 AM (#3604626) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Ed T Quite often, women (and men) choose a partner later in life that they would never give a second look to whole younger. I suspect that as people mature, and go through one, or more partners, I suspect they learn what is important in life and relationships. Possibly, one has to try on a few shoes to get the right fit? |
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25 Feb 14 - 05:04 AM (#3604627) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,Patsy I think this is something we have all asked or wondered about in life as far back as time in memorial. Especially the older you get and you have seen all kinds of things happening along the way. Unfortunately we know that a lot of the young tend to let the heart rule the head and sometimes mistakes are made along the way just lifes experience although painful. At the other end of the scale my mother had a full long devoted marriage to my father obviously I am biased because he was my dad but he was the most devoted loyal protective husband and father to me. However, he did and saw to absolutely everything so when he died his loss was more than just devastating for my mother her very soul was torn away. This is digressing from the topic a bit but they should know that this is the only life we have got and also the lives of any children that might come along so a quality life is the best. Whatever they do though it will eventually lead to a heartbreak of some kind but better if supported by a family unit. But unfortunately the young seem to think that they will go on forever full of dramas, hearts and flowers, and everything they see on the screen and movies is real, I did once too! You only have to look at some of the current pop stars to see that. It's sad but they have to learn for themselves the same as everyone else in life. |
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25 Feb 14 - 05:22 AM (#3604634) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Joe Offer Pete, both of these women have a history. One is maybe 35 now, and I've known her for 15 years. She's going back to a boyfriend who was bad for her the first time. The other is 24 and happily pregnant with her third child, and has been involved with at least two guys during this pregnancy. And every guy seems to be a borderline criminal. Both seem to go from one disastrous relationship to another, and yet they both are intelligent, loving, beautiful young women. Both come from difficult family situations, and they seem intent on carrying on the difficulties to another generation. It's such a shame. -Joe- |
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25 Feb 14 - 05:39 AM (#3604637) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Richard Bridge Mind you there are men the same. I have a distant relative who seems to be able to walk into new horizontal pastures at leisure, but finished up time and time again with bad tempered dishonest controlling and violent women. I suspect there is much to the old French saying "La coeur d'une femme ne change point". |
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25 Feb 14 - 05:41 AM (#3604639) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: akenaton Men and women want different things from their partners. Understanding the female mind is a lifes work, once you've got it sussed, you're too effing old to do anything about it.... :0) But its still a nice position to be in :0) |
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25 Feb 14 - 05:49 AM (#3604642) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Monique They might be repeating some family pattern(s), they might believe (usually unconsciously) that they're not worth/they don't deserve better than that, they might feel they're "saving" someone, there might be many more reasons... usually unconscious one |
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25 Feb 14 - 06:19 AM (#3604651) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: G-Force Peer pressure? |
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25 Feb 14 - 06:41 AM (#3604655) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Teribus No accounting for taste |
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25 Feb 14 - 06:45 AM (#3604657) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Rob Naylor In my experience many women tend to fall for the "Jack The Lad" types, even when they get older. A lot will *say* that they're looking for a loving, reliable, straightforward partner, but when it comes down to it will time after time select a more "edgy" type. A while back when I was going through some relationship difficulties, a friend (an old school friend) who's a serial (actually parallel) womaniser and who *never* lacks for a string of women hanging on his every whim wrote me a note about "how to succeed with women" if I got to a situation where I was "back on the market". I'd been saying to him that most of my good friends were women, and that I tend to get on with women better than men in general, though they never saw me as potential partner material. He very much propounded the "treat 'em mean and keep 'em keen" philosophy, saying that he would never ever treat a woman to dinner or a night out until they'd been to bed...he insisted on going "Dutch" with them before then, but would do the odd treat after they'd had sex. He was never successful with women at school or university, but told me that he'd made a conscious effort to become "a bit of an arsehole" with women when he realised that nearly all the guys who were most succesful in that department treated women badly. He did say that he thought I'd have real trouble adopting his philosophy as I was "too nice", empathised too much with women and listened to them too much. His comment was: "they can get empathy, a shoulder to cry on and someone to talk to from their girlfriends. From a partner they want someone more "manly" who's a bit wild and exciting. Let's face it, they don't see you as a potential partner, just as a girlfriend who happens to have a dick!". Looking around, there seems to be a lot of truth in that, and it depresses me :-( |
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25 Feb 14 - 07:15 AM (#3604666) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Ed T My observation is that there are people who are attracted to situations which their logic should send them in another direction. Possibly, these folks also get some odd benefit from being in the situation (that most dont understand), or they are simply "wired" differently-much like folks who seek the "rush" from being exposed to extreme danger or chaos? Iwould not rule out some may be impacted by (learned behaviour) from youth. Added, may be the "missionary types" who seek out a "damaged" individual, in hopes of successful rehabilitation. |
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25 Feb 14 - 07:39 AM (#3604669) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Pete Jennings Joe, understood. Richard, I agree. |
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25 Feb 14 - 07:42 AM (#3604670) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,Dani 'cause there aren't enough men like you in the world? Dani |
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25 Feb 14 - 07:49 AM (#3604673) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Amergin Sunday, I just had this lovely woman tell me she was too damaged for me....like I'm not fucked up...and so instead of being with one who would treat her the way she deserves....love her the way she needs...she is off in search of "passion"....which means to another shit head. My feeling is if you feel you deserve being fucked over time and again...then you're probably right.... |
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25 Feb 14 - 08:42 AM (#3604684) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,Eliza I think some women were treated terribly at home while young by abusive/drunk/physically cruel/absent fathers and are subconsciously trying to re-create that toxic situation. They don't feel 'at home' with a nice, gentle or kind man because they've been programmed to expect and accept bad behaviour. Also, toxic relationships create a level of stress and tension which can be addictive, especially in a depressed person. The 'buzz' of fear or pain is a contrast to the 'deadness' of calm and peace. Also, low self-esteem might mean that these women don't feel they 'deserve' a good man. And finally, there are 'rescuers' who take on lame dogs and strugglers in an attempt to rehabilitate or save them. It seldom works, and the woman wears herself out making excuses for bad, violent, criminal or addictive behaviour. All these situations are ten times worse of course when there are children involved. The only way forward IMO is through therapy and self-knowledge. I saw quite a lot of this sort of thing among the young lassies visiting their men in prison. Many of them were banging their heads on a brick wall, but couldn't see it. |
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25 Feb 14 - 09:16 AM (#3604693) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Jack the Sailor A couple of observations. It's culture. From before I was born, Brando, James Dean, Elvis, to Justin Bieber and vampire romance, Bad boys are the thing. I don't know "Jack the Lad" But I think Rob Naylor have made this point first. It's Psycology, Eliza makes a good point about repeating patterns. It's what is available? Young, strong good hearted men who have their lives together have plenty of romantic options, (I'm trying to say this carefully while still making my point) They tend to try to mix socially with women who do not exhibit patterns of self destructive behavior. |
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25 Feb 14 - 09:26 AM (#3604698) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,Seaham Cemetry Perhaps they make them laugh? Perhaps they are well endowed? Perhaps being a bit edgy is a turn on? Perhaps ? Perhaps we shouldnt worry too much. Many here are parents I suppose, and which of you have havent disapproved of your offspring's choices? My wife and I come from very different backgrounds and are very happy together. However, some of my (more distant luckily) family spoke of her being a gold digger and I was marrying beneath myself. Tell you what, you can choose your lovers, but I wish I could disown some of my so called family. Making mistakes, by the way, is part of life's rich tapestry. Hence I notice it is more common for religious people to give disapproving stares and barbed comments than others. If religion can be, apparently, the pursuit of doing good things, getting it wrong is anamethma to them. The pattern holds here too I notice. |
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25 Feb 14 - 09:50 AM (#3604706) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Allan C. Joe, you can ask this and other questions 'til the cows come home, but doing so will not change the outcome. It will be what it will be even if you were to voice your reservations directly to these women. They are old enough to have figured out a few things and perhaps you are underestimating the men. Whatever the case, I believe your place as a friend is to offer support if or when things go south. |
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25 Feb 14 - 10:08 AM (#3604711) Subject: LYR ADD: Ladies Love Outlaws From: pdq LADIES LOVE OUTLAWS (Lee Clayton) Bessie was a lovely child from west Tennessee Leroy was an outlaw wild as a mink One day she saw him starin' and it chilled her to the bone And she knew she had to see that look on a child of her own. CHORUS 'Cause ladies love outlaws like babies love stray dogs Ladies touch babies like a banker touches gold And outlaws touch the ladies Somewhere deep down in their soul. Linda was a lady blonde and built to last Benny was a no good guitar picker runnin' from his past She heard all of his songs tellin' nothin' but bad news But she made her mind up to try to get him win or lose. CHORUS Ladies love outlaws like babies love stray dogs Ladies touch babies like a banker touches gold And outlaws touch the ladies Somewhere deep down in their soul. Jessi like the Cadillacs and diamonds on her hands Waymore had a reputation as a ladies' man Late one night a light of love finally gave a sign Jessi parked her Cadillac and took her place in line. CHORUS 'Cause ladies love outlaws like babies love stray dogs Ladies touch babies like a banker touches gold And outlaws touch the ladies Somewhere deep down in their soul. CHORUS Ladies love outlaws like babies love stray dogs Ladies touch babies like a banker touches gold And outlaws touch the ladies Somewhere deep down in their soul... |
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25 Feb 14 - 10:25 AM (#3604719) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,leeneia You are asking the question the wrong way, Joe. The question is, why are losers drawn to girls? Well, take the average male loser. No education, criminal record, no job prospects, no welfare, uses substances. All he can do is find a woman and convince her, with affectionate gestures, soft words, cheap presents and persistence, that he 'loves' her. (It's rather like a lost cat's very effective techniques for getting a human to adopt it.) She's been taught that she needs a man, so she falls for it until his criminal tendencies take over, and he either kills her or is thrown out. Then the cycle begins anew. |
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25 Feb 14 - 11:15 AM (#3604734) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Bill D When I was MUCH younger, I invented the term "charismatic bastard" to cover several situations I was aware of. It explains a lot. One man I knew played the game to the hilt... he was driven to court a woman as if she was the most desirable thing in the universe- until he won- then he was bored. Lots of men learn the social tricks to lie convincingly about their true nature & intentions while being 'fascinating' and providing adventure. If they have enough money to make the adventure really wild, is it any wonder they can attract 'enough' women? The whole culture is designed to further this.... ads, wedding books, film, jewelry stores, dating sites...etc. Of course, not all women fall for the game, but it takes some awareness & resistance to opt out of it. |
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25 Feb 14 - 11:25 AM (#3604736) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST Biology - women wired to marry the big strong wallet-wielding provider, and cheat on him with the wastrel artist. Look at the herd animals videos - big strong buck fighting next strongest buck and who is actually mating with the does in the background? |
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25 Feb 14 - 11:29 AM (#3604741) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Richard Bridge Actually there is a point - in a sense quite different from what Eliza says above. Women are indoctrinated, from the moment they can begin to understand, that nice girls don't. Therefore, in order to have an excuse to do what nice girls don't (without feeling guilty that they did a bad thing), they fixate on the excuse that they are under a spell, controlled, misled, a victim of a force of nature. Enter the bad boy... |
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25 Feb 14 - 11:37 AM (#3604750) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,Eliza I believe 'users' (of both sexes) are known as sociopaths. They are very skilled at manipulating, lying and being charming in order to further their ends. Just like the cat described by leeneia. I agree, Seaham Cemetery, that disparity in a couple is not necessarily a disaster, but I gathered were talking about real 'bad lots', which I'm sure describes neither you or your wife. I've seen arrogant, uncaring, disrespectful men (and women) attracting the most pleasant and sweet partners. I feel GUEST is correct in that there must be some influence of biology at play, where a strong male (even if he's aggressive, nasty and a bully) was in primitive times a good idea to protect ones family from attack. But we don't live in the Stone Age now. The trouble is, no matter what you do or say, you won't persuade the woman to give up on him and leave, until maybe she ends up penniless, or in hospital (or worse). I've worked with the Friends (Quakers) in helping prisoners' wives & families, and the grief, pain and distress some of these Bad Lots cause is unbelievable. |
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25 Feb 14 - 01:25 PM (#3604781) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: jacqui.c My grandson is 13, tall, good looking and a nice kid. He had a crush on a girl at school, who told him that, while she liked him, she preferred another boy who was, as she put it, 'more bad' than Lewis. It starts early, it seems. I grew up scared of a verbally abusive, domineering, alcoholic father and went on, for quite a long time, to choose domineering/alcoholic men as partners, men who would put me down in one way or another, as did my own father. It wasn't until I trained as a Victim Support volunteer that I started to understand the motivation behind my choices and, also, that I always ended up with partners who were not as intelligent as I am and who, looking back, had to assert control because of that. Now I am married to a man who appreciates what I bring to the relationship, doesn't feel threatened by my being bright and makes me feel that I am really loved for myself, not for what a man wants me to be. I agree with Eliza - therapy and self-knowledge are the only hope for women (or men) in these situations. Other wise you just keep on with what you see as the norm, what you have been conditioned to expect. |
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25 Feb 14 - 01:50 PM (#3604790) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,Eliza There is a super book called 'Women Who Love Too Much' by a Californian therapist, Robin Norwood. The women you're concerned about, Joe, may find it enlightening. The trouble is that this sort of life choice gets more and more chaotic as it spirals out of control. Relationships fold, the next one is even more dysfunctional, the man even more toxic, until those involved are very sick indeed. And a female 'rescuer' is always finding no-hopers to 'save', as they're thick on the ground these days. Most therapists understand the dynamics, so it should be fairly straightforward to get advice and help if a woman has this tendency. |
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25 Feb 14 - 02:36 PM (#3604800) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: akenaton "Of course, not all women fall for the game, but it takes some awareness & resistance to opt out of it." Hmmm, in my experience women play "the game" much more expertly than men. The female "victims" are few, and even their "victimhood" can be part of the game plan. Women usually know exactly what they want and how to get it, they are more intelligent regarding the selection of partners, men are usually only interested in "availability". |
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25 Feb 14 - 03:32 PM (#3604816) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,Eliza Women with damaged minds can indeed be manipulative in order to get what they think they want or need akenaton. Particularly mentally, socially or financially needy women, who can latch on to a man like a leech. I expect they use sexual attraction with which to reel him in. There are users and abusers of both genders. I often reflect that part of the problem is that young people can't seem to be alone. They aren't at ease with themselves and need constant company and support or they fold. When I'd learnt to be on my own, independent and strong all by myself, I was in a much better position from which to select a good partner and send the beasties packing. Many folk think 'anyone is better than no-one'. It just isn't true. Perhaps a whole year minimum of celibacy and exploration of ones own interests and personality is a good idea in order to produce a sensible and sane person, capable of choosing a good partner! |
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25 Feb 14 - 03:32 PM (#3604817) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,mg It is two sides of the same coin...the women and men in this scenario are playing complementary roles, and both must bear responsibility. In case of lack of education, not high intelligence, background of poverty, it is understandable for either party. Selecting a bad man, even if he is the last man on earth, is a moral choice and hopefully one they are still preaching against. When I was growing up, one thing that made sense about a very restrictive religion was that you had an obligation to be a decent person. And furthermore, you had an obligation to marry a decent person. This was drilled into us. A number of loser men could shape up if they received no companionship, sex etc...now some ..the true sociopaths..can probably not. The best a woman can do is avoid them..flee from them. Never ever let them move in with you, especially if you have daughters (or sons) because often this is a recipe for pedophilia. One thing as a society we should do is have dormitories for men down on their luck, as well as women, so they do not have the financial pressure of looking for a roof over their heads by manipulating a woman (or man). Each person should have the knowledge that there is safe and warm shelter and a leftover school lunch waiting at all times... Anyway, do not let women off the hook in this scenario. They have the responsibility, especially if present or future children are involved, to make sure the men they are with are safe and at the very least non exploitive and non abusive. It does not mean they have to be the breadwinner, or that a woman can not choose to support a decent, non-exploitive man..whatever works for them...but perhaps churches, AA meetings etc. should address this more. |
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25 Feb 14 - 03:44 PM (#3604823) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: akenaton I didn't mean to imply that there was anything "wrong" with women who play "the game" Eliza, often they are not even conscious of their part in "the game" It is natural selection at work....women have the brains, men have the "willies".....they work well on their own, but are seldom found in the same bed :0) |
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25 Feb 14 - 03:46 PM (#3604824) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Joe_F Here's a just-so story: If you're a gene cluster, there is one obvious way to increase the probability that the man you are in will make you prosper in the next generation: make him want to cherish a woman long enough to have some children. There have to be a lot of such men for the race to survive. But if there are a lot of those, then there is another program that will get you descendents in the next generation: be mean & parasitical; fool women, fuck them, and forget them. That requires you to inhibit your empathy, but so what? Now suppose you are a gene cluster in a woman. There are two kinds of men you might program your host to pursue, etc., etc. That isn't a theory, but it's a notion of the kind of thing you have to expect to happen. |
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25 Feb 14 - 04:24 PM (#3604839) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,Eliza Women (and men too of course) do indeed have the responsibility of choosing a good partner. But quite a few people are not capable of that, due to their own personality defects. They perhaps have no solid, strong base within themselves to do the 'right thing', and instead are driven irresistibly by unhealthy neediness. It's not helpful to say one 'ought' to select well. Sometimes one is careering down a mad path out of control of oneself, and addicted to a violent, feckless, drunken sociopathic, or immature 'mate'. I've had very sad conversations with some lassies (prisoners' girlfriends for example), who just bleated, "But I looooove him!" when the bruises and betrayals kept on coming. They seemed totally powerless to end their attachment. One must actively seek help in the form of therapy in order to break the spell. |
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25 Feb 14 - 04:49 PM (#3604845) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Allan C. Thanks in no small part to beauty & fashion magazines with their airbrushed complexions zillion dollar gowns on their emaciated bodies, many women go through life feeling inferior and not nearly beautiful. Hollywood does its part to reinforce such feelings. I believe that it is largely due to the resulting low self-esteem that many women underestimate their worth in terms of what sort of man they might interest. If these women keep their expectations and their standards relatively low, then they thwart what they see as the potential for rejection from men who are from farther up the food chain. -- Just a theory |
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25 Feb 14 - 05:00 PM (#3604848) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Jack the Sailor Joe, A young woman I know was with a guy I didn't think was good enough for her. A tattooed kickboxer who hadn't finished high school. I "liked" the relationship as you did. They have since broken up. He now owns a gym and has give a job to her nephew and offered one to her sister. C'est la vie say the old folks! It goes to show you never can tell. |
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25 Feb 14 - 05:50 PM (#3604863) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Bill D "Women usually know exactly what they want and how to get it..." Oh really, ake? You wouldn't want to over-generalize, would you? I suggest you take a big, anonymous survey. You might be surprised how frustrating and complicated many women find it to establish a good relationship.... or even to define what one is! |
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25 Feb 14 - 06:26 PM (#3604873) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: akenaton Oh I wouldn't be at all surprised Bill, relationships ARE complicated. |
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25 Feb 14 - 06:52 PM (#3604885) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: McGrath of Harlow Some are, some aren't. There are no rules about these kind of things. Except maybe that we tend to repeat what we've done before, for good or ill. |
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25 Feb 14 - 09:47 PM (#3604918) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Jack the Sailor Love is easy. A relationship is hard work! |
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25 Feb 14 - 11:55 PM (#3604925) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Janie Love is easy. A relationship is hard work! Well said, Jack. I don't quite understand why the references acknowledging that men also make "bad" choices in relationships that are made in this thread are so often in parentheses. |
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26 Feb 14 - 02:10 AM (#3604932) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Joe Offer I think the "Ladies Love Outlaws" song explains a lot. Thanks for posting the lyrics, pdq. I think I've heard the song before, but hadn't paid attention to it. I found recordings by Tom Rush, by Waylon Jennings...and by The Everly Brothers. Both of my young woman friends are intelligent, and both are resourceful enough to have raised children on their own, working hard to support their children. But both have lives that are tedious, and they dream of adventure. Their lives sound very much like stereotypical country songs. I know I can't intervene or say anything, but my heart aches for these wonderful women. So I'm just their friend, and they appreciate that. -Joe- |
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26 Feb 14 - 09:12 AM (#3605015) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,Dani Hey, I wasn't being flip. Yes, people who want to be happy long-term need to realize that it's very rarely about 'adventure'. And that can be hard to accept. But there is also, in my opinion, a real scarcity of mature, centered, good men such as one finds in Joe Offer and other members of this community. Life can be tedious AND full, AND good and fun, and satisfying. But until you find the partner with whom this can happen, all kinds of "bad" (wink to Janie) choices will be made. It's like food (yes, it always comes back to food with me : ). Yes, broccoli is good for you. And steamed fish. But Doritos are margaritas are SOOOOO much more satisfying.... in the moment. A middle ground is needed, but hard to find in the morass of getting-through-each-day, which make simple good-and-bad decisions so hard to make well. Dani |
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26 Feb 14 - 10:05 AM (#3605030) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,Eliza Janie, I put my own remarks about men making bad choices too in parentheses because the thread title specifically concentrates on 'girls'. I remember when I was young (hundreds of years ago!) viewing 'bad' men as rather romantic. They had adventures, went a bit wild and fought boldly with other chaps, being fearless and brave. They seemed more sexy than a man who would listen, help do the dishes and never take risks. And I found 'needy' down-on-their-luck poor men pitiable; they awakened in me a desire to help them. (Typical rescuer). I can really relate to young women who feel the same attractions. The whole idea shifts drastically when one considers the same men as potential husbands and fathers. Where children are concerned, losers and baddies are no good at all. |
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26 Feb 14 - 02:34 PM (#3605133) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,CS I don't know why some women are attracted to dodgy guys, but I do tend to think there's an element of biology at play (violent, selfish and aggressive traits are after all a considerable part of what has made the human race successful and someone's got to have the babies of the arseholes who carry those genes). I'm not too sure it's a 'programming' thing at all, I've known enough girls from nice quiet stable homes who fancy quite the opposite of what they've been exposed to during their upbringing (usually called 'rebellion'), while I on the other hand - having experienced violent abuse in childhood, a string of losers that my mother had relationships with, and drug and alcohol dependency among close family members - have only ever found really nice sensitive and kind men appealing.. |
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26 Feb 14 - 02:42 PM (#3605138) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,mg I do think that young women use "bad boys" as a surrogate for what they are afraid to do....but they should be told if you choose a drug-user, it is pretty much the same as if you were using the drugs yourself...if you choose someone violent, you share in the responsibility. |
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26 Feb 14 - 02:54 PM (#3605145) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,CS Following from the 'carrying the genes forward' point, if you scratch just a little beneath the surface of who we imagine ourselves to be, I suppose it's not too far off the mark to consider the thought that our individual happiness - or indeed security - isn't necessarily the driving force - or even close - behind what truly biologically and psychologically motivates any of us to do anything. Take having children for starters; Would anyone have children if not for the accidents of sex for pleasure, or the biological craving were not hardwired into us? Who would imagine that a screaming bundle of puke and shit would be a genuinely great life enhancing idea? |
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26 Feb 14 - 03:04 PM (#3605146) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Jack the Sailor Dani, Your post tickles my mind. Oh Baby, I got what you want. I am the real thing and not just a taunt! I'll give you adventure and look after you Give me a try and here's what I'll do Give me a try and here's what I'll be I'll be you're weekend Doritos and you weekday Broc o leeeeeeeeee!!! Than' yuh thanyuh veruh much!! |
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26 Feb 14 - 03:06 PM (#3605147) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Jack the Sailor OTOH I know a couple of single moms, who want the love of a child but who are unwilling to put up with childishness in a man. |
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26 Feb 14 - 03:11 PM (#3605151) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,CS Dani, hmm I must be extra boring; nice men over 'bad' ones AND steamed broccoli over Doritos for me, I love that stuff! A big pile of home-grown steamed spinach (with a little grated Dutch cheese) is even better ;-D |
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26 Feb 14 - 03:19 PM (#3605153) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,CS "I know a couple of single moms, who want the love of a child but who are unwilling to put up with childishness in a man." Bit of a thread drift, but I'm rather ambivalent about "wanting the love of a child" (ie: wanting to receive the love of a child, which isn't uncommon) to be a good reason to have children. Wanting to give love to children would be a somewhat less objectionable reason, IMO. I have a relation who really loves kids, that's why she has them, not so they will love her. That said, essentially all 'reasons' for having children are inherently selfish; after all, who ever decides to have children because it's what 'they' would want? ;-) |
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26 Feb 14 - 03:44 PM (#3605158) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST, If we should find ourselves trapped in a dictatorship with cruel, overbearing rulers, would it be the nice, gentle, easy-going and considerate men who would overthrow the regime, or would it be the stroppy arse'oles who refused to conform and toe the line? Maybe the world needs a few of the troublemakers to reproduce themselves, just in case. |
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26 Feb 14 - 03:49 PM (#3605160) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Amergin And now the woman I was talking about wants nothing to do with me....because I committed the horrible transgression of falling for her....just as well, I suppose. |
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26 Feb 14 - 03:52 PM (#3605162) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Jack the Sailor "That said, essentially all 'reasons' for having children are inherently selfish; after all, who ever decides to have children because it's what 'they' would want? ;-) " I had hoped that I was saying that in my experience that single motherhood is not always the accident you described in your previous post. I do agree that "accidents" are a viable strategy for the reproduction of "selfish genes." If that is what you were getting at. |
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26 Feb 14 - 04:47 PM (#3605181) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,Patsy By falling for someone who your parents or society would not approve of could be an act of rebellion to keep him or her feeling desirable and young? Also so often someone involved in a turbulent relationship is convinced that they can change the person. If they are lucky perhaps they can eventually but as the old saying goes a leopard doesn't usually change it's spots. In my experience as a mother the more objection you have for the situation the more they are likely to do the opposite. So what can you do? |
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26 Feb 14 - 04:53 PM (#3605182) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Jack the Sailor "From: Amergin - PM Date: 26 Feb 14 - 03:49 PM And now the woman I was talking about wants nothing to do with me....because I committed the horrible transgression of falling for her....just as well, I suppose. " Seems like she's a butterfly and you aren't her kind of flower. |
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26 Feb 14 - 11:50 PM (#3605275) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Allan C. In the long run none of us can at the outset say with much certainty whether a relationship of our choosing is sure to be good or bad. Time is the only true arbiter. Every decision we have ever made is based upon one thing and one thing only: It seemed like a good idea at the time. |
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27 Feb 14 - 12:09 AM (#3605277) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Jack the Sailor Donno bout that Allan, some people know each other in high school and don't get together for many years later, :-) I have two friends like that. |
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27 Feb 14 - 01:36 AM (#3605282) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Joe Offer: "I saw Facebook messages this evening from two wonderful young women, each proclaiming their love for the young men they're with. I clicked the "like" button for them, but I'm not at all impressed by the men they've fallen for. These are good, intelligent, loving women -....." Joe Offer: "....Pete, both of these women have a history. One is maybe 35 now, and I've known her for 15 years. She's going back to a boyfriend who was bad for her the first time. The other is 24 and happily pregnant with her third child, and has been involved with at least two guys during this pregnancy. And every guy seems to be a borderline criminal." Appearances can be very deceiving.....Women are supposed to have the 'corner' on intuition, Right?....You said, "These are good, intelligent, loving women -....." Well if that is the case, what did they compromise their intuition for?...or better yet, Why?...'Good, intelligent, loving women' should be very guarded about such compromises.....otherwise, they might only be good for the fuck....which sounds like what happened....and just when you think that....maybe they weren't such a good fuck, either. But I agree with you, that it is a shame.....it is. GfS |
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27 Feb 14 - 03:42 AM (#3605295) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,Eliza From my observations in life, there are academically intelligent people who are nonetheless completely thick when it comes to emotional intelligence. They may be sharp as a needle at problem-solving, managing finances, general knowledge etc, but their sexual urges/emotional neediness etc take over when seeking 'love'. This makes them extremely vulnerable. A nice, kind, loving woman may be too nice and give herself completely to an undeserving man. Perhaps a more savvy, slightly harder, less eager-to-give young lady stands a better chance of repelling men she can see are no good for her. Also, I've observed that most 'unsuitable' men are quite evidently so if one keeps ones eyes open. If a chap has no 'visible means of support', or has a criminal record, an addiction, has been violent etc, it's only too obvious that he probably won't make a good partner. But certain kinds of women almost refuse to listen to their common sense. |
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27 Feb 14 - 05:36 AM (#3605336) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Richard Bridge Regrettably decent blokes can have a very nice few months with a woman, and be ready for the long haul, only to be turfed out, too. But there again most blokes will be ready at least to try a relationship if it seems horizontally promising and to continue with it while it remains so. |
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27 Feb 14 - 09:08 AM (#3605404) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,Triplane Could it simply be because all the good guys are unavailable and the girls have an ethic of "dont break up an existing relationship". Maybe they should get credit for that. |
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27 Feb 14 - 11:46 AM (#3605475) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Rob Naylor Triplane: No, I don't think that's right either. I know several women who've chased men who were already in relationships...invariably the "edgy, exciting" men, though, rather than straightforward,"safe" men. In fact, one of the women who sees me as a "girlfriend who happens to have a dick" (see my other post above) is very intelligent, usually very ethical, doesn't even break speed limits, but to my knowledge had either made the running herself for, or acquiesced when chased by, four men in the last 3 years who were already in relationships. The last one has obviously just dumped her as yesterday she splashed all over FaceBook...."warning, M****** *****, your Fiance, A*** *******, has been cheating on you for the last 6 months". I happen to know that the A*** she named was a guy who'd been chasing her whilst engaged and who she eventually gave in to 6 months ago (because he was edgy, exciting, dangerous, etc, etc....) and has been having a torrid affair with for the last few months. She had bursts of feeling guilty about it when she'd dump on me about how bad she felt, but he was just too "exciting" to give up. This is a 39 year old, otherwise "grounded", attractive woman with a PhD and an excellent career. Three years ago she left a 7 year relationship with a great bloke who thought the sun shone out of her arse, because he was "too boring". He wasn't actually....he did extreme sports, played a mean guitr, travelled, and was ethical/ strong-minded enough to have been part of those "overthrowing a tyrannical state" alluded to above... but he was also straight as a die, completely loyal and very "safe" for his partner. |
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27 Feb 14 - 11:55 AM (#3605478) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Jack the Sailor Luke didn't get the girl. Han Solo got the girl. Bad boy wins again! But of course Luke wasn't meant to have THAT girl. What an epically stupid plot to dole out over three movies! |
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27 Feb 14 - 12:33 PM (#3605492) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,leeneia Twice recently I've seen information on how to recognize an abuser. One thing an abuser does is demand an exclusive relationship right away. (Probably because she's so great, she's the one for him and he loves her SO much, right?) A intelligent, lovable young woman in our society is taught to be polite, to be kind, to show brotherly love etc etc. Who teaches them how to check a guy out, how to let a guy down, how to reject a man without insulting him? How many of you have done that for your daughters, nieces and granddaughters? If I ran the schools, high school sophomores would study units in English class on the following: How to spot a liar Manipulation and how to deal with it How to check out somebody's record How to spot a married man Political propaganda and how to spot it Verbal bullying How to spot an abuser |
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28 Feb 14 - 02:57 AM (#3605683) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST They are not attracted to losers which is why im still single Steve |
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28 Feb 14 - 04:00 AM (#3605704) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,Eliza leeneia, I wholeheartedly agree with your list. How much pain and suffering it would save if only women had these skills! Contrast your list with what young girls are nowadays indoctrinated with:- How to look and behave like a porn star. How to wear so much make up one resembles a clown, How to use advanced sexual techniques to give men the greatest pleasure. How to wear the least possible amount of clothing and still be legal. How not to appear a wuss by having a go with every drug and dodgy latest craze that the others are using. How to drink like a fish until one is sick as a dog. How to have sex as early as possible because to still have your virginity is risible. etc etc None of which gives them any insight as to which man is a good one. |
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28 Feb 14 - 10:12 AM (#3605803) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,Patsy There are those who do like the thrill of the chase no matter what the consequences especially when the people they seek are by all accounts unobtainable such as for example: priests, married men/women and people who are reknowned to have an unblemished history in the eyes of the public. Until something like that happens they are good role models but as soon as the public gets wind of a story of an indiscretion it is splashed across every paper that can get a scoop on it and usually discrediting the people who they have got involved with. They obviously didn't set out to be losers to start with so what makes a so called good person suddenly act out of character. |
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28 Feb 14 - 12:40 PM (#3605873) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Richard Bridge: "Regrettably decent blokes can have a very nice few months with a woman, and be ready for the long haul, only to be turfed out, too. But there again most blokes will be ready at least to try a relationship if it seems horizontally promising and to continue with it while it remains so." What is that??....Rationalizations for a 'short distance runner'? Maybe one should consider the power of the emotional damage that gets set into motion, before they compulsively unzip! There is an adage .... 'Women find a man, and think they can 'change' him, but they(men) never do..while men find a woman, hoping they never change, but they(women)do!' Perhaps people should reconsider their priorities!...after all, reproductive organs are NOT toys, or objects of ego verifications, detached from their psyches! GfS |
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28 Feb 14 - 06:51 PM (#3606030) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: McGrath of Harlow "If we should find ourselves trapped in a dictatorship with cruel, overbearing rulers, would it be the nice, gentle, easy-going and considerate men who would overthrow the regime, or would it be the stroppy arse'oles who refused to conform and toe the line? " I think evidence from episodes of partisan and guerilla war is that an ability to stay calm and collected and wait for the right moment is likely to be especially important in such situations. Being a stroppy arsehole who doesn't know how to do that gets yourself and others killed. |
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28 Feb 14 - 07:52 PM (#3606047) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Gosh, McGrath of Harlow, that's pretty serious. Are you sure you pulled up the right thread? GfS |
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01 Mar 14 - 10:10 AM (#3606174) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,leeneia As far as I'm concerned, this is a serious thread. |
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01 Mar 14 - 10:47 AM (#3606186) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity leeneia, I agree (more so than even meets the eye)....I probably worded it wrong, as I was addressing McGrath's post. I'm sorry if you took it wrong. Perhaps, McGrath should clarify what he was referring to, being as 'BS: Why are girls drawn to losers?' would lead one to believe that the topic would be addressing behavior, rather than....wait..I'll put up the part of McGrath's post I was responding to:....."I think evidence from episodes of partisan and guerilla war is that an ability to stay calm and collected and wait for the right moment is likely to be especially important in such situations. Being a stroppy arsehole who doesn't know how to do that gets yourself and others killed." ..and that part of the post just popped up out of (seemingly) nowhere. GfS |
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01 Mar 14 - 11:23 AM (#3606195) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Jack the Sailor "Seemimgly???" He directly quoted an earlier post IN THIS THREAD and responded to it. |
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01 Mar 14 - 11:33 AM (#3606196) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity I got that.....it was just an odd turn. GfS |
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01 Mar 14 - 04:13 PM (#3606268) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Richard Bridge Hmmm. Two consecutive posts to this thread eaten by the post eater. Is that enemy action or what? Anyway, fuckit, bored with being civil. FUCK MRS GRUNDY. |
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01 Mar 14 - 04:18 PM (#3606271) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Doesn't that piss you off??..(had a few, myself). GfS |
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01 Mar 14 - 05:08 PM (#3606282) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,Eliza Richard, do what I do when that happens, and fling the laptop across the room (onto the sofa, not the wall) then breathe deeply and re-write the whole post, because your comments are interesting and I like reading them! |
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01 Mar 14 - 06:09 PM (#3606289) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Rob Naylor Once again a Mudcat thread pre-empts the nationals: Daily Telegraph |
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01 Mar 14 - 06:15 PM (#3606290) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST, topsie Richard, when the post doesn't 'take' I often find I can use the 'Back' arrow and find it still waiting in the 'Reply to thread' box, so no need to retype it. |
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01 Mar 14 - 09:21 PM (#3606319) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Richard Bridge Alas, tried that, Topsie. |
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01 Mar 14 - 09:26 PM (#3606321) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Richard Bridge Princess Margaret-Bindon. You HAVE I hope heard the story about his impersonation of the black-eared elephant? I thought there was extant photographic evidence. |
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02 Mar 14 - 04:53 PM (#3606524) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Jack the Sailor From: GUEST,Eliza - PM Date: 01 Mar 14 - 05:08 PM Richard, do what I do when that happens, and fling the laptop across the room (onto the sofa, not the wall) then breathe deeply and re-write the whole post, because your comments are interesting and I like reading them! __________ Richard. I love it when you are civil. Carol tells me to select all and copy before I hit submit, Then check to see if it took. If not paste it in. Hit submit again. 19 times in 20 that works for me. If it doesn't, reload the Mudcat home page, open the thread and paste it in again. That works about 20 time out of 20 when I remember to do it and I don't get a "placed offline by operator or some other such message. |
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02 Mar 14 - 07:29 PM (#3606575) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,olddude cause us bad boys are good at hunting and fishing I guess. Can't be because of our looks :-) |
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02 Mar 14 - 07:47 PM (#3606581) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST Girls are drawn to losers for the same reasons boy are, and sometimes they find each other. |
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02 Mar 14 - 07:51 PM (#3606583) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Jeri ...and then, they procreate. |
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02 Mar 14 - 07:55 PM (#3606585) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Jeri Damn. I said that exactly as if I had kids and knew what I was talking about. Seriously, I think it comes down to expectations. |
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02 Mar 14 - 08:40 PM (#3606595) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Bert I think it goes back to tribal days and even before that. Women who picked the big mean ugly brutes were the ones who survived. |
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02 Mar 14 - 09:41 PM (#3606604) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST Fuck it! That's what I was gonna say. Girls and boys--note the inclusion of the other sex, because this thread was shit until someone recognized it was sexist, and by its nature it was because how else could it have lasted so long with no one suggesting maybe boys too meet losers--are much the same. Enculteration makes them different. Thing ya gotta do is figure it out. O, the angst, the angst. |
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02 Mar 14 - 09:48 PM (#3606607) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Janie Define 'loser.' I spent 25 years with a man my family (and his family) thought of as a loser. It was definitely a challenging 25 years. I'm not sorry they are behind me. But I don't consider my ex a loser. A troubled but very creative and gifted teacher who empowers people to understand and get comfortable being part of the natural world. |
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03 Mar 14 - 09:37 AM (#3606737) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Rapparee I thought it said "lasers." |
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03 Mar 14 - 01:00 PM (#3606801) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Jack the Sailor Why are kittens drawn to LASER pointers? |
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03 Mar 14 - 05:06 PM (#3606859) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: meself "Enculteration makes them different." Yes! Nothing at all to do with biology, oh no - take off their sexist clothes and they're the very same, you'll see - |
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04 Mar 14 - 04:27 AM (#3606986) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: The Sandman why not ask the question why are girls drawn to winners?. they frequently areno offence joe, but you are generalising from two cases |
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04 Mar 14 - 04:48 AM (#3606991) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,CS Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Jack the Sailor Date: 03 Mar 14 - 01:00 PM Why are kittens drawn to LASER pointers? HA! And the answer will probably be just as uncomplicated ;-) I think, as mentioned earlier, if you take the 'personal happiness expectation' out of the equation, then many of our seemingly 'inexplicable' actions start to make sense. We are not beings composed of a singular unified intent. The ideal or goal of 'individual ongoing happiness' is something actually rather modern in cultural terms, and probably not even much of a factor at all in evolutionary ones. |
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04 Mar 14 - 04:51 AM (#3606994) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Musket I assume there aren't many cats with cataracts in Carolina since you moved there then Jack? |
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04 Mar 14 - 12:11 PM (#3607142) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,Eliza Janie: 'Define losers' Janie has hit the nail on the head. There are varying degrees of losers. It could mean men who are a bit irresponsible, silly, immature, tending to infidelity, selfish, vain, unable to save money. Or men who are violent, abusive, addicted to a substance, controlling, criminal, terrible fathers, no intention of finding work. We all have faults, and no-one is perfect. But my interpretation of a loser is someone I'd be horrified to find a daughter of mine involved with. (Sorry about the preposition at the end!) I've known daft men, inadequate men, a-bit-too-much-to-drink men, arrogant chaps etc. But 'losers' would be like those I met in the prisons. Not capable of sustaining the happiness or security of a female. Toxic in the extreme, and generating depression and fear in their unfortunate hangers-on. Many were very charming and attractive, and knew how to manipulate kindly people. Dangerous blokes. And they never seemed short of a lassie or two. Sometimes two women would turn up on the same visit clutching their Visiting Orders for the same inmate, and have a cat fight in the car park. |
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04 Mar 14 - 12:26 PM (#3607149) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Jack the Sailor "From: Musket - PM Date: 04 Mar 14 - 04:51 AM I assume there aren't many cats with cataracts in Carolina since you moved there then Jack? " That is a very good joke sir! but..... I have to confess that my knowledge of the Kitten/LASER conflaguration is entirely second and third hand, mostly gleaned from the conversations of friends on Face Book about their cats, my wife watching "Krazy Kat" type videos and a couple of gags from "Big Bang Theory" on television. I hereby confess that I sometimes repackage jokes from the outside world and present them here for y'all's enjoyment. That said, I don't think the point is to point the pointer into the feline eye. It is to project a projection of coherent light onto the floor and walls that the kitten mistakes for practice prey. |
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04 Mar 14 - 12:32 PM (#3607155) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,Eliza I've often done that with a simple torch beam Jack. Kittens like to chase anything that moves. But aren't these laser things a bit dodgy in the hands of ordinary people? Presumably they could seriously damage the eyes of humans, never mind kittens! |
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04 Mar 14 - 12:48 PM (#3607159) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST, topsie Back in the olden days, when people did knitting, kittens traditionally played with the ball of wool, which would attract them by making jerky movements as the knitter knitted. |
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04 Mar 14 - 01:12 PM (#3607170) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Eliza, You left out men who will get a girl pregnant, and then not be around to raise it!! GfS |
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04 Mar 14 - 01:24 PM (#3607172) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Jack the Sailor LASER pointers are designed for use in business meetings. I doubt they are very dangerous. |
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04 Mar 14 - 01:28 PM (#3607175) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,Eliza True, GfS, and there were plenty of prisoners who'd got the T shirt on that one. I helped countless poor little lassies with strings of children get from the station to the Prison in my car for their visit with 'Daddy'. I don't think the youngsters really knew who the chap in the stripey shirt was. But I knew that many of them were carrying drugs in their nappies or little shoes for 'Daddy'. (Prisons now insist that all nappies are changed in the waiting room, in front of an officer, for a 'prison nappy', to prevent smuggling. All children are rub-down searched too. Dreadful.) Those men were Losers. Big-time. But one can have a lot of elastic for a man with minor faults. Most men are genuine and only want to be loved. |
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04 Mar 14 - 01:41 PM (#3607179) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: beardedbruce Jack: The current version of the main ANSI Z136.1 Standard (Z136.1-2000) assigns lasers into one of four broad hazard Classes (1, 2, 3a, 3b and 4) depending on the potential for causing biological damage. Classification is determined by calculations based on exposure time, laser wavelength and average power for CW or repetitively-pulsed lasers and total energy per pulse for pulsed lasers.(1) These calculations are used to determine a factor defined as the Accessible Emission Limit, or AEL which is the mathematical product of the Maximum Permissible Exposure limit (MPE) given in the Standard and an area factor computed from the defined term called the Limiting Aperture (LA). That is: AEL = MPE x Area of LA . Limiting Apertures are dependent on factors such as laser wavelength and are based on physical factors such as the fully dilated pupil size (7mm) and beam "hotspots" (1mm). For most all exposures to the skin and IR exposures to the eye lasting greater 10 seconds, the involuntary movement of the eyes and the body as well as heat conduction will average an irradiance profile over an area of about 10 mm2, even if the irradiated body part is kept intentionally still. This equates to a size of about 3.5 mm. Especially in the near-infrared, radiation is penetrating relatively deep into skin and due to scattering, the irradiance profile is averaged over corresponding dimensions. For wavelengths larger than 0.1 mm, an aperture size of 11 mm is specified, as smaller apertures would lead to inaccurate measurements due to diffraction effects. Each laser class is based on these AEL thresholds: Class 1 lasersor systems cannot emit accessible laser radiation in excess of the applicable Class 1 AEL for any exposure times within the maximum duration inherent in the design or intended use of the laser. Class 1 lasers are exempt from all beam-hazard control measures. Class 2 lasersare CW and repetitively pulsed lasers with wavelengths between 0.4 µm and 0.7 µm that can emit energy in excess of the Class 1 AEL, but do not exceed the Class 1 AEL for an emission duration less than 0.25 seconds and have an average radiant power of 1mW or less. Class 3a lasers have an accessible output between 1 and 5 times the Class 1 AEL for wavelengths shorter than 0.4 µm or longer than 0.7 µm, or less than 5 times the Class 2 AEL for wavelengths between 0.4 µm and 0.7 µm. Class 3b lasers cannot emit an average radiant power greater than 0.5 Watts for an exposure time equal to or greater than 0.25 seconds or 0.125 Joules for an exposure time less than 0.25 seconds for wavelengths between 0.18 µm and 0.4 µm, or between 1.4 µm and 1 mm. In addition, lasers between 0.4 µm and 1.4 µm exceeding the Class 3a AEL cannot emit an average radiant power greater than 0.5 Watts for exposures equal to or greater than 0.25 seconds, or a radiant energy greater than 0.03 Joules per pulse. Class 4 lasers and laser systems exceed the Class 3b AEL. (1) Note that the ANSI Z136.1 (2000) Standard is under revision and is [proposing the adoption of the IEC Standard's Classification Scheme described below. ANY laser can cause eye damage if directed into the eye. Some are just more dangerous than others. ( Working with class 3B and 4 lasers now, to reflect from orbit ,off ice and back to orbit) |
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04 Mar 14 - 01:43 PM (#3607182) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: beardedbruce My pocket laser pointer ( from the dollar store) is a class IIIa, 5mw 650nm- more than sufficient to cause permanent blindness. |
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04 Mar 14 - 02:17 PM (#3607189) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,Eliza Please forgive a silly old lady, beardedbruce, but what are these laser things actually for? |
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04 Mar 14 - 02:26 PM (#3607194) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: beardedbruce The cheap ones they sell as pointers- I guess they can be safer than the long pointed sticks that they used to use - THOSE could poke your eye out! The ones I work with are for the ATLAS instrument on ICESat 2. |
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04 Mar 14 - 02:42 PM (#3607203) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Richard Bridge Yes, let's define "loser". A "loser" is someone who loses. They could be Tim Tim nice but dim, qualified as a solicitor, decent chap - his practice is going under and he is going bankrupt. Or they could be Wayne Jobless - not only can't get a job but can't even make a successful benefits claim and sanctioned into starvation. A successful crim is not a loser. A successful thug is not a loser. Johnny prisoner with 3 babymothers ready to smuggle contraband in is only partly a "loser". Those are not the attractive forbidden boy. That forbidden boy is the archetype from Lawrence's "Virgin and the Gipsy", the drug dealer with god teeth and diamonds drinking Grey Goose and Kristal, even maybe Mark Thatcher the clueless but very rich arms dealer. The people who stick two fingers up at society's rules - and at a girl's mother telling her to keep her hand on her ha'penny. |
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04 Mar 14 - 04:44 PM (#3607238) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,Eliza It seems that 'loser' in that context is a man who cannot generate money for himself, in other words financially a loser. So a successful criminal is not strictly speaking a loser, I see what you mean Richard. But I still prefer my rather broader definition of a man I wouldn't wish my daughter to become attached to. That is to say, morally a loser. Poverty isn't of itself a discouragement for a potential partner. My own husband was half-starved and had literally nothing, but his character and moral compass were excellent. Over the years, he's proved to be a winner in every sense! |
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04 Mar 14 - 05:12 PM (#3607243) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Eliza, When I mentioned the guys leave, and who don't raise their own kids, I wasn't only referring to prison....there are plenty of schmucks out there, who are prisoners to their own horny-ness, that in their manipulations of women, to get what they want, they 'make a donation', then, for whatever manipulation they delude themselves with, do not raise the child, leaving the woman to her own wits. That being said, you did bring up an aspect that I wasn't thinking of....Thanks for the contribution! GfS |
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04 Mar 14 - 05:21 PM (#3607248) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST, A criminal in prison is a loser. A successful criminal is not in prison. |
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04 Mar 14 - 05:28 PM (#3607250) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Jack the Sailor Thanks Bruce. If I ever buy a dollar store LASER pointer, I'll keep in mind that I should not point it at my kitten's eyes. If I ever get a kitten. :-D |
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04 Mar 14 - 05:51 PM (#3607257) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Guest: "A criminal in prison is a loser. A successful criminal is not in prison." They're usually elected! GfS |
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04 Mar 14 - 05:59 PM (#3607258) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Jack the Sailor Good one GfS. Elected or bankers, or anyone who can afford the best lawyers. |
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04 Mar 14 - 06:22 PM (#3607264) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity ...or own the judges!! GfS |
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04 Mar 14 - 06:23 PM (#3607266) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity ....and legislate the loopholes... GfS |
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05 Mar 14 - 01:59 AM (#3607319) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,hg It's the way they kiss, Joe. ON THE ROAD TO FAIRFAX COUNTY (David Massengil) O once I loved an outlaw He came and stole my heart, O how I count the hours Since we were torn apart. On the road to Fairfax County I spied a highwayman He wanted all my money My heart beat like a drum I gave him all my money And sweet he smiled at me, His beauty I took pity Beneath a black oak tree. We kissed but for an hour The sun was newly warm, The clouds were as the flowers, That bloom but for a morn. He gave back all my money And bowed most gallantly, He promised for to meet me That night beneath the tree. We'd flee to some far island And there we would be wed, And freely we would live there With no price upon his head. One night I went to meet him With my inheritance, He kissed me 'neath the half moon And joyful we did dance. O love betrays all secrets It whispers in the breeze, The sheriff he did follow With all his deputies. Like hounds rushing to slaughter The fox whose luck is run, He stood erect and cursed them, "Goddamn you, everyone!" They seized him in a fury And heeding not my plea, They hung him from the oak tree Where he made love to me. O once I loved an outlaw He came and stole my heart, O how I count the hours Since we were torn apart. love,harpgirl |
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05 Mar 14 - 07:38 AM (#3607373) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: beardedbruce Jack, The problem is not so much pointing it at the eyes, but reflection off a smooth surface into the eyes. It does not require intent to happen. Unintended consequences to one's actions are often more dangerous than actions intended to hurt or damage. |
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05 Mar 14 - 10:25 AM (#3607418) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: meself A poet complaining about Valentine's Day a few years back, on the radio (CBC): "Your average, run-of-the-mill psychopath in prison gets more love letters than I do .... " |
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05 Mar 14 - 03:37 PM (#3607489) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,Eliza Sometimes, even the female officers get romantically involved with male prisoners. You'd think they's have an 'inside' view (sorry!) of the type of chap found behind a cell door. Just shows how charming, attractive and sexy 'losers' can be. I was astonished to find female officers alongside the men, but it's standard practice. |
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05 Mar 14 - 04:11 PM (#3607496) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: McGrath of Harlow The odd thing about the term "losers" is that undoubtedly the kind of people it's being used about in this thread would have used it to refer to people who'd here be seen as the reverse. It's not a label I like to be seen used of anybody. Begs too many questions and invites too many assumptions. |
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05 Mar 14 - 04:11 PM (#3607497) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: McGrath of Harlow The odd thing about the term "losers" is that undoubtedly the kind of people it's being used about in this thread would have used it to refer to people who'd here be seen as the reverse. It's not a label I like to be seen used of anybody. Begs too many questions and invites too many assumptions. |
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05 Mar 14 - 06:44 PM (#3607539) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Jack the Sailor Not to worry Bruce. My cat is about as real as Schrodingers. |
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05 Mar 14 - 06:51 PM (#3607542) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Janie And not everyone who ends up in prison deserves to be categorically labeled a loser. |
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05 Mar 14 - 07:00 PM (#3607547) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Jack the Sailor "And not everyone who ends up in prison deserves to be categorically labeled a loser. " True, true... Most have lost a trial or two. |
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06 Mar 14 - 03:52 AM (#3607619) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity So, the chick ended up with a 'loser',eh?.......because YOU see her as so cute and wonderful and charming, and figure YOU are the better guy for her???? Speaks volumes! Down deep, all men are shallow.......... Down deep, all women are inside out............. ....and the grass is always greener on the other side........... By the way, is the guy who is noticing the girl with the loser...is he married while making such 'profound observations'? ..and then maybe the chick is the loser.....and turns the guys into one, too....water does seek it's level! This chick is obviously 'so together',she traded her instincts for a loser???? So, here it is..... Women have no honor, and men have no pride.....A woman can do anything at any time with any man, and somehow explain it all away, as if she did nothing wrong....and where is the honor in that????? And men will drop everything, he is doing, run himself broke, sever lifelong relationships with friends, and be obsessed by her, and pursue her to the ends of the earth, even if it takes all his resources pursuing someone who has no honor....and how can you be proud of that???????!!!!!! GfS |
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06 Mar 14 - 04:14 AM (#3607622) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,Eliza Being in prison doesn't necessarily mean a person is a loser... hmm. When I started doing prison work, I used to be quite idealistic. I thought the poor souls had had no chance in life, bad upbringing, sad past, mental illness, violent parents, absent fathers and all that. I reckoned with understanding. kindness and support, many could turn their lives around. Obviously that's true for the odd one or two, but I'm sorry to say the vast majority were Bad Blokes. No doubt this will produce a storm of protest, but it's what I learnt after some years. Dishonesty is a character trait which is extremely hard to expunge. Those men were users, and viewed anyone daft enough to go in and see them as a target for manipulation. Even some of the Chaplains were very cynical about them. I continued to do my best until I got too old for the journeys, but I certainly would not want a daughter of mine to get involved with anybody with a prison record. I would have no hesitation in calling them Losers, and stating that they'd make any woman unhappy. |
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06 Mar 14 - 07:32 AM (#3607692) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Musket Bruce. Stick to sonnets, they make easier reading.... (Cards on table. I do sadly understand, and used to inspect lasers used in medical sense, LASIK and LASEK for eyes, laser and IPL for hair removal, thread vein reduction etc. The now defunct UK laws regarding protocols and local rules.. yawn, excuse me.) No girl would have been drawn to me if I admitted to knowing what I used to know. Such detail has loser written all over it. |
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06 Mar 14 - 07:36 AM (#3607695) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: McGrath of Harlow Being a "Bad Bloke" does not mean that you will not be highly successful in a number of ways, with or without a prison record, just as being hugely unsuccessful, with or without a prison record does not mean you will be a "Bad bloke". The term "loser" just confuses the issue. Is it just supposed to mean being unsuccessful? Or being "a Bad Bloke"? Or both together? Better pension it off. |
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06 Mar 14 - 07:46 AM (#3607703) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,Eliza Very good point McGrath. But highly successful bad blokes can rely quite heavily in a parasitical way on their host women. They need satellite gophers to cover their tracks and fulfil their needs, sexual, domestic, complicity in crime etc. They may do very well in life but if truly bad, they can't be depended upon or turned to in a crisis. They aren't faithful or selfless. They don't make good fathers. They're often violent (in the underworld violence is a given) As I said before, a man in poverty isn't necessarily a loser. My husband wasn't and isn't, and he was hardly clothed, never mind fed, and slept on a sheet of cardboard on the ground, when we met. My understanding of Loser is a man who will not make his woman happy or secure. It's in the character not the circumstances. |
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06 Mar 14 - 08:26 AM (#3607717) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Musket Of course, given the average age of contributors, we teenagers are smiling indulgently because we know that "bad" is a positive term! Bad - Michael Jackson, Discuss. |
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06 Mar 14 - 01:26 PM (#3607777) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,Eliza I didn't know that, Musket. I'm very out of date; I thought the current term was 'wicked'! (Or was it 'cool'?) Never mind, it'll be something else in a month or two. Poor Michael Jackson isn't 'bad', he's 'dead'. |
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06 Mar 14 - 02:17 PM (#3607793) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity I guess they didn't get it. GfS |
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06 Mar 14 - 02:23 PM (#3607798) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Jack the Sailor You know a lot of news came out after that song that puts MJ being "bad" in a whole different light. At least we can agree with confidence that "Billie Jean" was not his lover and the kid is not his son. |
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06 Mar 14 - 04:47 PM (#3607830) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 1 Here ya go, Joe...a few answers will be found in here: Dating A Sociopath And...in here: 'What is Misogyny..And How To Recognize A Misogynist You see, many of these men have a REAL problem with their mothers, going right back to early childhood. They grow up taking that problem out on ALL women, but they do it very cleverly. They are master actors, manipulators and often are *incredibly* charming to the woman and to their own friends too, who will never believe what their friend does.... Often, they surround themselves with other women too, playing the main woman in their life off against the others, filling her head with all sorts of stories about them...and then, when she breaks, SHE is the one with the problem, being labelled 'jealous' and 'a bunny boiler' etc... By then, he has gone back into type with his friends, with the other women around him, who think he is totally wonderful... No-one, but NO-ONE will love you as a Sociopath does and they will make you feel SO supported, so wanted, so needed, so utterly loved..and then, they will either break the woman down into a jibbering wreck, or they will just walk away without a backward glance, bored, and the job of 'getting back at their mother' achieved once again. You will find women who do this too, perhaps due to problems with their father, or sexual abuse later on in life.....ALL men will be made to suffer, after being strung along for a while..and the Sociopathic minds can hook people in VERY fast. Women, or men, who have had a long relationship with such a person may well have had every ounce of their self-belief taken away from them, and so, they are EASY prey for the next Sociopath/Misogynist/Man Hater looking for their next piece of prey.... They nearly ALWAYS choose kind/loving/insecure/older people too... And when they make a MISTAKE and choose a person who stands up to them, who DARES to say "The Hell, you DO!!!", they will then go on to try and break that person apart in every way, tearing their reputation apart everywhere they can...in every way they can, telling terrible lies, spewing out their hatred to the person concerned, threatening them with suicide, whatever it takes to make their prey feel guilty... And of course, if any other person, decent or otherwise, dares to make a play for their former partners, they will home in on them again, for even though they do not LOVE that person, they feel that person *belongs* to them... ANYONE can fall for a Sociopath/Misogynist/Man Hater (can't think of the correct word for the latter, gettin' old)...and trust me, if it has never happened to you before, you will be put through hell for a while... NEVER give in to them, never EVER give in, no matter what they threaten you with, no matter what others believe of you..and others WILL believe it of you, for YOU once believed that person too. Those sites are wonderful.. |
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06 Mar 14 - 06:51 PM (#3607852) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Then on the other hand, 'When Loving comes to Giving, some people stop at nothing!" GfS |
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06 Mar 14 - 09:48 PM (#3607870) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: McGrath of Harlow "My understanding of Loser is a man who will not make his woman happy or secure. It's in the character not the circumstances." An interesting definition. Sounds a bit like "Me Tarzan, You Jane". Or perhaps Fifty Shades... Find the woman who wants whatever kind of man you are, and to be treated whatever way you treat her, and you're no loser... |
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07 Mar 14 - 05:27 AM (#3607933) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Brian May The Drama Triangle Fortunately it worked for me as we've been married over 30 years and still talk! |
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07 Mar 14 - 01:34 PM (#3608050) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Hats off, Brian!!! Great advice, McGrath!! ...the losers are the ones who miss out on the opportunity, to share that lifelong love with your wife and family!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ...and icing on the cake, and a most profound experience, is to deliver your own children, alone, with your wife!!!!!!! Regards!! GfS |
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07 Mar 14 - 06:57 PM (#3608134) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 1 Joe, often, the 'bad boys' choose the women first...and often, those women are kind, loving, and/or vulnerable. Perfect prey. Dating A Sociopath Misogynists - Characteristics - Behaviour |
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08 Mar 14 - 10:53 AM (#3608245) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 1 Sorry, posted the same links twice. My first message 'disappeared' at my end and therefore I thought it hadn't appeared on here, as I couldn't see it..but..it had. |
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09 Mar 14 - 12:26 AM (#3608385) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,hg but its sweet. joe that you see women as madonnas choosing men beneath them.... |
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09 Mar 14 - 12:56 AM (#3608387) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Big Al Whittle 1) Read The Ginger Man - do you identify with Sebastian or Kinch? 2) Repeat exercise Brideshead Revisited - Sebastian or Charles Ryder - which is the better night out? and there you have it....... |
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09 Mar 14 - 01:38 AM (#3608390) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Joe Offer Interesting that some people can't accept my question. I suppose, for the benefit of the hair splitters, I should have asked why certain seemingly-capable girls seem to be drawn to men who ignore, abuse, and abandon them - men who are often beset by addictions. I'm not worried about the ones who enter into an equal partnership with somebody who loves them and cares for them. The ones I'm concerned about are the ones who put themselves into a relationship that is dangerous for themselves and for their children. I gave two examples of young women who are particularly good friends, but I have known many others. Sometimes, it seems they're out to "save" the young man in question; and sometimes they just seem to think that others just don't understand how good the man actually is. And yeah, some bright young men end up with losers for partners, too. Oftentimes, it seems that everybody but the innocent victim, knows that this person is entering into a destructive relationship. But these people seem drawn into such relationships like a fly going into a spider's web. I feel bad for them - but why do they do it? -Joe- |
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09 Mar 14 - 07:31 PM (#3608577) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: Van Why is anyone drawn to anyone? My current shine has a record you wouldn't believe but if she's not here I miss her like hell. |
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09 Mar 14 - 10:22 PM (#3608618) Subject: RE: BS: Why are girls drawn to losers? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Van: "My current shine...." My current shine???? GfS |