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06 Apr 14 - 02:24 PM (#3616154) Subject: I dont understand the word homophobia From: GUEST,I dont understand the word homophobia I think I figured out how to start a thread. Hi folks. Theres a nother thread I saw last night and someone used homophobia. I dont understand why people use that word the way they do. A phobia is a fear but people use it to mean hate. Not the same thing. The man or woman that wrote about newspeak from 1984 was making a point. Is this word a case of that? Merci. |
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06 Apr 14 - 02:36 PM (#3616157) Subject: RE: I dont understand the word homophobia From: meself Oh, dear - here we go. |
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06 Apr 14 - 02:40 PM (#3616158) Subject: RE: I dont understand the word homophobia From: McGrath of Harlow This should be in BS if anywhere, and no doubt will be shifted. Homophobia is a rather weird word. Strictly speaking it means "fear of the same", since the "homo" is from a Greek root meaning "same", as in words like homogenous, or for that matter homosexual. People assume it comes from the Latin word "homo", which actually means human being, for "man" as opposed to "woman" the word is "vir". I suppose that it could be justified on the grounds that a homophobic person might be frightened of associating too closely with people of the same sex. But it is taken as meaning aversion to homosexuals as such, which is by no means the same thing. |
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06 Apr 14 - 02:43 PM (#3616162) Subject: RE: I dont understand the word homophobia From: GUEST,Gervase ...and so the illiterate voice the indefensible yet again, cloaked by anonymity. Any chance of letting this thread gently die? But there again maybe I misunderstood, which ain't hard. |
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06 Apr 14 - 02:47 PM (#3616163) Subject: RE: I dont understand the word homophobia From: Jack Campin If you can persuade yourself you don't understand a word as widely used as that, work at it and you can also manage to unlearn "potato" or "hand". |
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06 Apr 14 - 02:50 PM (#3616164) Subject: RE: I dont understand the word homophobia From: Uncle_DaveO "A phobia is a fear but people use it to mean hate. Actually, it's applied much more loosely than that. Not "hate", but an expression of mere dislike or disapproval calls forth an accusation of "homophobia" these days. Dave Oesterreich |
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06 Apr 14 - 02:56 PM (#3616165) Subject: RE: I dont understand the word homophobia From: GUEST,Eliza I know, let's have a little game. Who can guess the identity of the Guest who began this thread? |
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06 Apr 14 - 02:59 PM (#3616167) Subject: RE: I dont understand the word homophobia From: Greg F. Idiots will out, eh? By the way, what does the term fuckwit mean? |
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06 Apr 14 - 03:07 PM (#3616171) Subject: RE: I dont understand the word homophobia From: GUEST,Grishka Homophobia means an aversion to touch persons of the same sex (beyond handshake) or to see them naked. In many societies, this is expected from males, possibly hoped to prevent homosexuality. In other societies including some "hippie" communities in the 1970s, it was or is criticized - with no connection to homosexuality altogether. Women, on the other hand, are often expected to embrace and kiss each other. Not long ago, many men believed that there is no such thing as female homosexuality at all. When someone caught his wife naked in bed with his neigbour's wife, he may well have found it cute. However, homophobic women also exist, in various forms. As McGrath mentioned, the word is sometimes falsely, wrongly, erroneously, and mistakenly used for aversion to homosexuals. This usage seems to have arisen only in the current century, but is embraced by many activists including Wikipedia authors in various languages. |
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06 Apr 14 - 03:27 PM (#3616180) Subject: RE: I dont understand the word homophobia From: Lighter "falsely, wrongly, erroneously, and mistakenly used for aversion to homosexuals." Like it or not, that's what the word has meant for a long time. The editors of the OED include the word without comment or objection. The editors of every major academic and commercial publisher also approve of this usage. You might try to coin a new synonym and then get the English-speaking world to use it instead. But I suspect you'd be wasting your time. Because a word already exists. (The "etymological fallacy" is the *false, erroneous, and mistaken* belief that what a word "really means" or "can only mean" is determined by its etymology rather by its actual and verifiable use. "EF" is a common but remediable condition that left untreated can lead to chronic irritability and possible high blood pressure.) |
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06 Apr 14 - 03:45 PM (#3616182) Subject: RE: I dont understand the word homophobia From: GUEST,Tony There's nothing erroneous in using the word "homophobia" to mean aversion to homosexuals. That's the only meaning the word has ever had in its brief history. And regardless of what "phobos" meant in ancient Greek, "phobia" as a combining form in English commonly means an aversion, or a squeamish feeling or anxiety felt in open spaces (agoraphobia) or high places (acrophobia) or in the presence of homosexuals. Homophobia sometimes leads to hatred, due to anger at the person who aroused the phobia, or anger at the person who calls a man homophobic, since phobia is often perceived as weakness in a man. |
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06 Apr 14 - 04:35 PM (#3616204) Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia From: GUEST I'm the GUEST who originally posted to this thread, and I now understand how wrong I was. I took cheap refuge in mere etymology instead of trying to understand the problems caused by people's irrational hatred of those who don't conform with what they see as "normal behaviour". I now understand that honest love between people has never in itself been the cause of trouble in the world- it is only ever other people's reaction to that love that has caused problems, and that they had no right to make such a judgement. This thread has served its purpose and can now be closed. Thank you all for your responses. |
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06 Apr 14 - 04:45 PM (#3616211) Subject: RE: I dont understand the word homophobia From: GUEST,Grishka SRS, right you are - I for one am not going to repeat the former debate, no matter what tricks they try. But semantics is a different thing. Lighter, my point is not only based on etymology, but on usage in the last decades of the 20th century, in English and French. I can speak from my own experience: self-declared taboo busters (in England) accused me of homophobia because I avoided touching other (heterosexual) men in the men's shower room. Aversion against homosexuals was so commonplace then that no special word for it was needed. A widespread idea (among those taboo busters) was that homophobic men are afraid of being accused of being homosexual themselves - rightly or not. Those who indeed had that motive (- not I -) may well have shouted against homosexuals more loudly than others. Note that the "hippies" and feminists preached softiehood, not homosexuality. In Turkey, for example, men will often touch each other in ways that western societies reserve for women; this does not affect their attitude towards homosexuality. In other words, many authors since ca. 2000 (1998?) use the word to mean something else than before. The only reason I can imagine for this is that they were looking for a word that had already acquired a pejorative value in "progressive" circles. This is not good semantics, and the OP's idea of "newspeak" is not without cause (- however often he is guilty of it himself). Well, since many of us seem to have forgotten the old meaning and its context already, the risk of confusion and manipulation is not as high as in other similar cases. |
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06 Apr 14 - 05:07 PM (#3616231) Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia From: Ed T Don't feel bad, guest. Many people "smitten" by it don't understand the words meaning, concept or the harm it does. |
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06 Apr 14 - 05:33 PM (#3616242) Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia From: Greg F. No, but they still hate fags, don't they? And the "Christian"[sic]"God"[sic] backs them up. |
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06 Apr 14 - 07:00 PM (#3616274) Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia From: GUEST,I dont understand the word homophobia English is not my language. It is French so I apologize if there is misunderstand. I have read George Orwell in French and the newspeak attracted my attention. Is homophobia nesspeak in English? Does it say one thing and mean another like the opposite? Phobia is phobie in French. Merci |
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06 Apr 14 - 08:22 PM (#3616285) Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia From: Lighter Orwell's imaginary "Newspeak" results from a totalitarian regime's edict to minimize the English vocabulary, make the public dumber by erasing important shades of meaning, and promote blind acceptance of all government policies, no matter how sadistic, irrational, contradictory, etc. So, by no stretch of the imagination is "homophobia" an example of "Newspeak," in "1984" or anywhere else. |
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06 Apr 14 - 09:38 PM (#3616294) Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia From: Jack the Sailor notre ami Unless your quest is for snooty abuse, I would suggest that this is not the best forum on the English speaking Internet for even mildly controversial political discussions. I don't know exactly what you mean by News Speak but I don't think you are too far off. Think that the term was created with a political agenda. But then again maybe it is supposed to me a psychiatric diagnosis. It that is the case then it is applied far too widely especially by certain members of this forum. According to the wiki entry at the bottom of this post the word was coined in a book by a person named George Weinberg. This is what I found when I Googled his name. Weinberg is known for several major contributions to psychotherapy. He coined the word "homophobia" (in his revolutionary 1972 book, Society and the Healthy Homosexual) to propose that those who harbor prejudice against homosexuals, and not homosexuals themselves, are suffering from a psychological malady, an irrational state of mind. Weinberg, though supposedly heterosexual himself, became a leader in the ultimately successful struggle to have homosexuality removed as a diagnostic category from the DSM, the professional therapeutic handbook. He has been instrumental in shifting public perception of homosexuality. Weinberg began using the word in 1966 and soon the then minute "homophile movement" began using it. Weinberg next prevailed on a friend, Al Goldstein, who published the underground newspapers, Gay and Screw, to introduce the word. He wrote articles for the underground press himself. He then persuaded a young student, Ken Smith, to do a research study for his masters degree on homophobia, and they designed the questionnaire together. It was the first published scientific study of homophobia. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/homophobia Pronunciation IPA(key): /ˌhɒ.məˈfəʊ.bi.ə/, /ˌhəʊ.məˈfəʊ.bi.ə/ Rhymes: -əʊbiə Etymology 1 homo (from homosexual) + -phobia, coined in 1971 by George Weinberg in Society and the Healthy Homosexual. Noun homophobia (countable and uncountable, plural homophobias) Fear, dislike or hate of gays and lesbians. Synonyms (fear of homosexuality): homoerotophobia, heterosexism Hyponyms gayphobia lesbophobia Derived terms internalised homophobia Related terms homophobe homophobic |
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06 Apr 14 - 09:41 PM (#3616295) Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia From: Joe Offer I tend to think that most of what we call "homophobia" IS fear, and not actual hatred. We might make more progress in ending homophobia if we were to understand that and respond with a positive approach rather than with aggression. -Joe- |
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06 Apr 14 - 09:58 PM (#3616301) Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia From: Larry The Radio Guy Joe's right. It's really a form of 'xenophobia'....which is fear of anything that seems different or 'strange'. Rather than feeling curiosity and moving 'towards' it in an attempt to understand, the xenophobe and homophobe do everything possible to get rid of it. I won't say that all negative feelings towards homosexuality is homophobia....but most of it probably is, particularly when the reaction is such a strong one. And considering that there really isn't anything much less threatening to our own well-being than someone whose sexual orientation is different from ours........strong negative feelings towards homophobia isn't rational. But those of us who 'brand' all homophobes and feel hatred towards them are probably suffering from 'homophobia phobia'. But Joe isn't. |
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06 Apr 14 - 11:30 PM (#3616310) Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity I don't understand the word homophobia..... Most people on here who accuse others, using that name, don't either!!! GfS |
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07 Apr 14 - 01:12 AM (#3616321) Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia From: GUEST,Musket No. But we have the word "goofus " weighed up, eh? |
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07 Apr 14 - 08:07 AM (#3616343) Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia From: GUEST homophobia |
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07 Apr 14 - 09:02 AM (#3616363) Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia From: Jack Blandiver Was it Patrick Moore who first coined the homophobic* 'Adam & Steve' thing? Either way you have thought a man who spend so much time with his head in the stars would have resisted the urge to shove it up his own arse. Here's a classic clip in which he demonstrates courtesy & humility to a man claiming to speak Space Languages (pure glossolalia!) - shame he couldn't have extended it to Gays. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjpcZPT1-NA * The pragmatic meaning of the word is defined by its usage : a noxious discrimination of the sexuality of others predicated on a very purposeful prejudice. Fuck all to do with fear - everything to do with willful hatred, backed by insane ideas of what is 'natural' in the eyes of 'God'. |
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07 Apr 14 - 09:48 AM (#3616377) Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia From: GUEST "The term 'homophobia', which is generally defined as the passive or active resentment or fear of someone who is lesbian, gay or bisexual..." a href="https://www.atl.org.uk/policy-and-campaigns/policy-library/an-inclusive-culture-homophobic-bullying.asp">homophobia-ATL |
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07 Apr 14 - 10:26 AM (#3616393) Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia From: GUEST Fears by their nature are founded or unfounded. If founded they are called that: fears. Phobias are what fears become when they are unfounded. |
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07 Apr 14 - 11:10 AM (#3616415) Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia From: bobad "Phobias are what fears become when they are unfounded." Unless, of course, you are killed by the object of your phobia. |
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07 Apr 14 - 11:15 AM (#3616416) Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia From: GUEST atl-homophobia and bullying Sorry, the education link is above. As noted earlier, homophobia is not a phobia, in the same sense as emotional disturbances as the general term "phobia" tends to be.However, it does tend to be an irrational attitude, including a "fear" of gay people. Oddly enough while homophobia was never listed as a mental disorder, homosexuality was listed as such in many locals until the mid 70's. |
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07 Apr 14 - 11:50 AM (#3616430) Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia From: Lighter Etymologically, "xenophobia" is a "fear of strangers," but it is most often used to mean a "fear, dislike, or hatred of foreigners or persons of different national origin, or of their cultural practices." "Homophobia" is understood to have a parallel meaning. So what? |
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07 Apr 14 - 01:15 PM (#3616474) Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia From: akenaton Yes Guest, you are right, hatred of homosexuals is what is written on the tin......hatred. I don't see how anyone can be afraid of homosexuals, any more than being afraid of any other human being. We are all human beings regardless of our sexual behavior. The word is "newspeak", and it is used to demonise anyone who questions the liberal agenda, especially people of faith. It is linked to political correctness and the idea of "thought crime" Orwell used "newspeak" to illustrate how humanity could be silenced and intimidated by the use of certain words and phrases.....It is used not only by authoritarian governments, but also factions with access to great power, as in the use of the media and government agencies. The health service public information pages are full of "newspeak", the only parts that cannot be adulterated are the statistics, but moves are afoot the conceal even them from public scrutiny. Orwell would be even more appalled by the insidious nature of present day "liberalism" than he was of totalitarianism. He would fight it tooth and claw....freedom of speech and freedom of thought are to valuable to be removed from society. Orwell valued our traditions, our history and our literature, he would be disgusted to see how much of it is being rewritten in the "liberal" image. |
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07 Apr 14 - 01:59 PM (#3616490) Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia From: Ed T Orwell, wouda' couda' shouda' said "".?.."" I admit that I did not actually know the author/gent in real life, and would not pretend to speak for what he did not actually say in his life. :) |
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07 Apr 14 - 01:59 PM (#3616491) Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia From: McGrath of Harlow ""The term 'homophobia', which is generally defined as the passive or active resentment or fear of someone who is lesbian, gay or bisexual..." To be accurate I suppose you'd have to include a proviso that the fear would need to be specifically on account of the orientation in question. Some people can be scary, straight, gay or whatever. |
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07 Apr 14 - 02:07 PM (#3616492) Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia From: Musket How sad. Even in this debate, the worm masquerading as Akenaton shows how he doesn't agree with equality and the health service attempts to tackle issues by saying the health agencies are trying to cover up his lies rather than accept his lies are just that. Lies. Where are we covering anything up? Only in his head. And what a dark hostile place that must be. Awful. Truly awful. Out of interest for our UK readers, the demise and adding of The Health Protection Agency responsibilities into a new body to cover all public health, (PHE) is an opportunity to see all the figures that inform planning and delivery of health services. I applaud that, and my role is to critique health policy. |
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07 Apr 14 - 02:32 PM (#3616502) Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia From: Jack the Sailor Ed T, wouda' couda' shouda' said "".?.."" I will admit I do knot know the man in real life. Just second hand pixels What is the worth of a third hand guess based up a second hand pixel. |
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07 Apr 14 - 03:00 PM (#3616524) Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia From: Ed T "Some people can be scary, straight, gay or whatever." Very true. But, they also may be quite nice folks, in other facits of their life, beyond what they cant seem to comprehend, with compassion, yet? "Hope springs eternal in the human breast; Man never Is, but always to be blest. The soul, uneasy, and confin'd from home, Rests and expatiates in a life to come." ― Alexander Pope, An Essay on Man |
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07 Apr 14 - 03:09 PM (#3616531) Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia From: Jack the Sailor Un Canadien Errant |
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07 Apr 14 - 03:11 PM (#3616532) Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia From: Richard Bridge The word is not in my much loved 1971 Complete Oxford dictionary. |
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07 Apr 14 - 03:14 PM (#3616533) Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia From: Richard Bridge I have also only just come across the TERF controversy. That takes the discussion of bigotry into strange places. |
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07 Apr 14 - 03:22 PM (#3616535) Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia From: Jack the Sailor the word first came to prominence in its country of origin in a book published in 1972 Richard. |
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07 Apr 14 - 04:03 PM (#3616549) Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia From: Q (Frank Staplin) Weinberg's word and its definition were adopted in The Merriam Webster Dictionary, and the sole definition given in the Collegiate edition- Homophobia- irrational fear of, aversion to or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals. The date is given as 1969. |
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07 Apr 14 - 06:56 PM (#3616596) Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia From: Jack the Sailor He did have an ongoing publicity campaign. Perhaps a Webster's employee sympathized with the cause of removing the medical stigma on homosexuality at the time. |
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07 Apr 14 - 06:58 PM (#3616598) Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia From: Lighter "Homophobia" in two distinct senses was admitted to the OED in 1993. The prevailing sense is "Fear or hatred of homosexuals and homosexuality." The earliest example is from Time magazine in 1969. Another sense, marked as "rare" and with a different etymology, is "Fear of men, or aversion towards the male sex; also, fear of mankind, anthropophobia." Only two quotations are given, one from 1920 and the other from 1960. |
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07 Apr 14 - 10:28 PM (#3616639) Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Besides the fact that Akenaton hit the nail on the head....should anyone be HIV/AIDS-a-phobic? Not if you're in a straight, monogamous, loving, traditional family, huh? Why not promote that??..instead of demonizing those who are, and calling them inappropriate names, like 'homophobic'??...even if it does go against the 'so-called liberal' mob?? GfS |
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08 Apr 14 - 12:15 AM (#3616652) Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia From: PHJim I am in a straight, monogamous, loving traditional family and have never felt demonized nor been called inappropriate names like 'homophobic' that I am aware of. This is not what brands someone as a "homophobe". People who make inappropriate statements or actions directed at gays are, rightfully labeled "homophobic". |
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08 Apr 14 - 01:40 AM (#3616656) Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia From: GUEST,Musket Keep banging the rocks together Goofus. If nothing else, it adds to the noise. |
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08 Apr 14 - 07:17 AM (#3616668) Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia From: Ed T I was raised in a compasionate christian family that recognized the value of diversity in many aspects of life. They rightfully did not load us down by promoting any specific lifestyle,superior racial group, political or religious agenda, or sexual orientation. But, they did instill in us a respect for those marginalized in society, and stressed a duty to stand up to those less compassionate folks who attempt to marginalize and demonize those in a minority. |
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08 Apr 14 - 12:10 PM (#3616747) Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia From: Big Al Whittle i'm not sure it bears too much inspection. we are what we are. i'm more okay with gays than my dad, who was acop and spent part of his life as a cop stalking cottagers in the 40's, and 1950's. but I grew up with the dictum that homosexuality was revolting. and lets face - some of us reject out parents values - and some of us don't. we have lived through a society that has profoundly changed. just as we have grown more tolerant we have admitted to our society religions and lifestyles that are very different. on paper as a matter of public record they are intolerant of sexual diversity - but they come from parts of the world that aren't policed as thoroughly as England, and attitudes were de facto more tolerant than ours. obviously we're not just talking about muslim societies, but also catholic countries - where presumably at some level they were comfortable with what their 'celibate' clergy were getting up to . I have a feeling that we will sort all this out. in the meantime I can't blame gays for being vigilant of their rights and intolerant of people too mentally lazy - or incapable of sloughing off the crap attitudes that their parents and culture have bequeathed to them. |
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08 Apr 14 - 02:08 PM (#3616771) Subject: RE: BS: I dont understand the word homophobia From: frogprince "Not if you're in a straight, monogamous, loving, traditional family, huh? Why not promote that??..instead of demonizing those who are, and calling them inappropriate names, like 'homophobic'??... That makes any number of times that you have implied (to say the least) that to advocate fair treatment of people who happen to be homosexual is to denigrate those who are not; now you've pushed it to the point of saying that those who advocate respect for people regardless of their orientation are "demonizing" people in straight monogamous families. The mental leap bridged by your first "..." above is just a bit wider than the breadth of all the rational thought known to mankind, |