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28 Apr 14 - 03:29 PM (#3622779) Subject: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,Guest Does anyone have any news about the fate of the archive of Trailer Records material recorded by Bill Leader in the 1970's, and controlled most recently by the late Dave Bulmer? Is there any prospect that any of that material will be re-released in a digital format? It is simply a crime that the two albums by Robin and Barry Dransfield ("The Rout of the Blues" and "Lord of All I Behold") have never been released on CD or through a digital download. Those albums are truly classic gems! |
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07 Jul 14 - 02:55 PM (#3639881) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,Guestwho Not too sure about the rest of the catalogue (Other than the obvious - and tragic - lack of Nic Jones reissues amongst many others) but I have just been lent a CD copy of "The Rout Of The Blues" released on Leader Records in 2001, LERCD2011. So it is out there! |
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07 Jul 14 - 03:45 PM (#3639896) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,Fred McCormick Just to emind folks that an augmented version of the Leader LP of Cecilia Costello has recently been issued by Musical Traditions. Cecilia Costello. Old Fashioned Songs. Musical Traditions. MTCD 363-4. I had hoped that the death of the unfortunate Mr Bulmer would mark the reissue of all the Leader catalogue material. But as of so far, nothing. |
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07 Jul 14 - 05:52 PM (#3639933) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST The Cecilia Costello CD is no guide to things becoming available. The rights appear to have remained with the BBC who made the original recordings. |
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07 Jul 14 - 08:22 PM (#3639968) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,SB Just do it. Publish and be damned - the guy's dead FGS - make as good a digital copy as poss. from a mint LP - remove the pops and clicks - and re-issue the thing as a CD. Do it overseas and avoid UK copyright laws. Simples. |
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07 Jul 14 - 08:24 PM (#3639969) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,SB BTW I have mint unplayed 'Songs For Every Season' if anyone want to re-issue those. |
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08 Jul 14 - 03:36 AM (#3640017) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,matt milton "Just do it. Publish and be damned - the guy's dead FGS - make as good a digital copy as poss. from a mint LP - remove the pops and clicks - and re-issue the thing as a CD. Do it overseas and avoid UK copyright laws. Simples." Too right! I would urge any musicians that made those albums to stick them up on Bandcamp at the very least. |
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08 Jul 14 - 06:03 AM (#3640060) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,Fred McCormick Guest. The rights to the Cecilia Costello recordings expired some years ago, before the recent revision of the law on mechanical copyright. The recordings are therefore in the public domain. That is why Rod Stradling felt safe in issuing that one. However, most of the Leader LPs were specially recorded by Leader Sound in the 1970s. Therefore, they are still in copyright - to someone. |
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08 Jul 14 - 09:29 AM (#3640129) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,matt milton I suspect that GUEST, sB already knows that. He/she did after all write "publish and be damned". I'm a great believer in copyright law in general but, like any truly moral person, I believe that what's important and what's right supersedes the law of the land. Ideally of course, the musicians that made all those locked-up Bulmer albums would now be distributing them themselves, throwing caution to the wind. (And, really, there's not much "caution" that would be involved: as pointed out above, who's gonna complain?) I've always wanted to hear the "John & Sandra" album (by John Faulkner & Sandra Kerr). If anyone has a copy of it and is prepared to send me the MP3s, I'll gladly donate £15 to the charity of their choice. I'd love to see all those albums "liberated" via Bandcamp or Soundcloud, or of course full official reissue. But the latter is not that likely to happen. Personally I think some laws are made to be broken. |
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08 Jul 14 - 09:36 AM (#3640132) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,matt milton (Having typed the above, the thought was nagging at me that the particular rare record I was referring to might not have actually been on Leader or Trailer anyway. And lo and behold, a quick google search reveals that it wasn't - it was on Argo! D'oh! Oh well ... the suggestion still stands!) |
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08 Jul 14 - 09:49 AM (#3640136) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe Matt, if you're FB friends with Quentin Keane, he might be able to help... he did the excellent Folkcatalogue's Argo Records blog. |
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08 Jul 14 - 08:31 PM (#3640388) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: Hagman Guestwho wrote: "I have just been lent a CD copy of "The Rout Of The Blues" released on Leader Records in 2001, LERCD2011. So it is out there!" My understanding of the CDs of the Trailer stuff that does circulate is that they were CD-Rs made and sold by Celtic Music from vinyl transcriptions. Often seen on eBay. It was quote a few years ago, as well - audio transcription software has improved heaps since then - about time someone did a proper job (assuming here that the master tapes are missing or out of reach). |
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05 May 15 - 02:37 PM (#3706684) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,LeslieLomas Any further developments re. the Trailer/Leader vinyl since this discussion last year? I'm desperate to get digitized versions of the old Muckram Wakes recordings. Any info greatly appreciated. |
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05 May 15 - 03:41 PM (#3706692) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST I would that thought that the Bulmer estate would have tried to realise the assets by now. I rather fear that the master tapes simply no longer exist. |
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05 May 15 - 06:39 PM (#3706721) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: Betsy Guest - We live in hope - I'm sure they do exist but I worry some lawyer / accountant is trying to put a price on them. |
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06 May 15 - 05:52 AM (#3706794) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,Fred McCormick The possibility that someone might have thrown the master tapes out worries me too. However, if they no longer exist, that is not the insurmountable problem it might seem. I have nearly all the Leader LPs (but none of the Trailers). They're all in pretty good condition and remastered copies could certainly be taken from them. That still leaves us with two problems. 1. |
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06 May 15 - 06:04 AM (#3706800) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,Fred McCormick Sorry folks. I don't know what happened there but I managed to send the post before I'd finished and without going anywhere near the GO button! Here's the whole post. Can some kindly mudelf remove the previous one? Thanks The possibility that someone might have thrown the master tapes out worries me too. However, if they no longer exist, that is not the insurmountable problem it might seem. I have nearly all the Leader LPs (but none of the Trailers). They're all in pretty good condition and remastered copies could certainly be taken from them. That though leaves us with two problems. 1. We still have the usual shedload of legal difficulties which surround the reissue of any recorded material in copyright. 2. Did Leader just sell the finalised masters and unsold LPs to Dave Bulmer, or did he sell him all the stuff he recorded? I ask, because record producers usually record more than would have comfortably fitted on a 12" LP. Therefore, are there lying in a vault somewhere unissued recordings that never made it onto the LPs by Charlie Wills, John Maguire etc? If so, are they salvageable? |
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06 May 15 - 06:22 AM (#3706805) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Unless any existing tapes have been kept in correct archival storage conditions for all these decades. The current owners may find all they have been hoarding are boxes containing reels of coagulated mildewed compost...😢 At the very least, they may need to be carefully baked and repaired by 'pro' restoration facilities. With no guarantees of usable audio quality... Otherwise the first attempt at playback might result in irepairable damage or complete destruction. Tape Salvage & Transfer |
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06 May 15 - 07:17 AM (#3706824) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: Jim Carroll "I've always wanted to hear the "John & Sandra" album (by John Faulkner & Sandra Kerr). If anyone has a copy of it and is prepared to send me the MP3s, I'll gladly donate £15 to the charity of their choice." Contact me if you can Matt - don't think you're a member (thought you were) Jim Carroll |
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06 May 15 - 08:25 AM (#3706848) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,John Moulden Robin Morton's recordings of John Maguire are still held by him with publicly audible copies at ITMA.Hugh Shields' recordings of Eddie Butcher & others are there also. I have a number of mint copies of the LP 'Come Day, Go Day, God Send Sunday' by John Maguire. They are for sale, if anyone wishes to contact me at jmoul81075 AT aol.com. |
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06 May 15 - 10:41 AM (#3706890) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,Guest Most of the above, apart from Fred, Jim & John, seem to assume that the recordings in question have a real artistic value and that in itself overrides any fiscal value. They also seem to assume that those other than the copyright holders, properly obtained, have a greater right to the material. This issue has been going on for far too long without anyone ever suggesting that it be tried in law. If those making the most noise feel so strongly about it then by all means form a group/liason/co-operative and get some finance together and take it to the courts. PRS will love you to bits for enhancing their coffers. |
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06 May 15 - 12:23 PM (#3706913) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,Fred McCormick Guest. I'm not sure what you are driving at, but your opening sentence is incorrect. I most certainly do believe that artistic value overrides fiscal value. If it were otherwise, what do you think would have happened to the music of Charley Patton or Bessie Smith or to Louis Armstrong's Hot Fives and Hot Sevens recordings? In case you're wondering, the record companies junked the masters of these and huge numbers of other recording artists during the 1930s, because they believed they had become financially worthless and therefore not worth keeping. The only reason we know anything at all about early recorded blues, jazz, country music etc., is because of the tireless efforts of collectors and enthusiasts, who went to enormous lengths to find copies of the original 78s, and then took the trouble to re-release them on LP and CD. And that for reasons of artistic, rather than fiscal value. JFTR, copyright is an enormous pain in the arse, and the probbaly the sole reason why the Leader LPs have never been reissued. However, I am certainly not prepared to bend the law on this one, and I doubt if anybody else is. That is the reason for the impasse. Feel free to snigger all you want, but if you've nothing constructive to say, I suggest that you don't say it. |
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06 May 15 - 06:43 PM (#3706996) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,Guest What I am driving at Fred is that the copyright has been bought and paid for. Hairbrained schemes to release bootleg CDs are not worth discussing as you seem to agree. With regard to artistic versus fiscal value I admit I put this rather clumsily and would agree with your comments. That said is it fair to expect someone who has bought something that no one else wanted at the time should then be expected to give it away? And... there was no snigger intended. |
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06 May 15 - 07:14 PM (#3707000) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: Steve Shaw Who's talking about giving it away? For decades there has been money to be made from the material in question. Not a fortune, but better than the nothing made so far, and with at least a chance of some fair play for the artists involved. Are you Bulmer's uncle? |
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06 May 15 - 07:44 PM (#3707005) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,Guest English is a very strange language. A lot of English people don't understand it. Read through all the threads Steve and then tell me no one is talking about giving it away. |
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06 May 15 - 08:18 PM (#3707011) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Guest - obviously, not all opinions expressed over the years on this subject are realistic, sensible, reasonable, legal...etc... But from a fresh, objective perspective the whole sorry saga has been mishandled one way or another. If interested parties have entrenched their positions in this impasse, surely it is still not too late for serious discussion seeking a fair mutual resolution... Other long bitter disputes over rights ownership and 'lost' tapes are now finally reaching agreement. I am looking at one newly 'discovered', remastered and lovingly packaged CD on my shelf right now, tapes that was feared lost forever due to intractable band & record label in-fighting only a few years ago. So maybe room for hope and optimism...??? |
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06 May 15 - 08:49 PM (#3707019) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker oops - I buggered the grammar of that last paragraph with sloppy late night cut n copy n paste editing....😬 |
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06 May 15 - 09:10 PM (#3707022) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: Steve Shaw Who's talking about giving it away, you ask...? That said is it fair to expect someone who has bought something that no one else wanted at the time should then be expected to give it away? Why, YOU are! :-) |
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07 May 15 - 02:38 AM (#3707055) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: Jim Carroll It's rather sad to see traditional songs being discussed in terms of copyright - sign of the times, I suppose. I'm sure Bulmer and those who came after have God (and the laws of copyright) on their side, but it goes against the spirit of sharing the music that I knew the folk song revival I belonged to used to be. Now, it seems, the issue of ownership over-rides the principle of 'passing the music on'. I still get angry at the thought that the impoverished Travelling man who gave us some ouf our great versions of traditional ballads, died of malnutrition in a derelict house in Roscommon, while a well-heeled musician who has virtually no interest in the tradition owns rights to one of our rarest ballads - funny old world!! I know that some of Leader's sources were not part of the oral tradition, other than having borrowed from it, but some where. The approach we always took to every old singer was recorded was, "If it's not passed on, it will die" - with out exception, they accepted that and freely gave us what we wanted, and we kept our end of the bargain by passing on what we were given. Maybe not a "funny old world" - just a sad one. Jim Carroll |
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07 May 15 - 02:57 AM (#3707063) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,Dave Asking people to give things away when they may have some value is going a bit far, but when they sit on the recordings without using them its a bit different. Use it or lose it I say. |
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07 May 15 - 05:26 AM (#3707093) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: Hagman Guest-LeslieLomas, if you care to join the community and PM me, I have encouraging news about your request re: Muckram Wakes that may ease some of your desperation. Vote early and often up there in UK, you lot.... |
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07 May 15 - 09:10 AM (#3707150) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,John Moulden I'd not even be looking in this forum if I did not have a great regard for the intrinsic and social worth of traditional music and its derivatives. However, like everything else, it exists in a fiscal and legal context. There's a balance to be struck and it's not likely to be struck without a bit of thought. As it happens, Fred and Jim are probably the two most knowledgeable and committed people to have contributed to this thread - they know the expense and effort that goes into keeping music alive - long may they do so. Incidentally, I wish everybody would include their names in guest posts. Making anonymous criticisms is not acceptable to me. |
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08 May 15 - 07:47 AM (#3707462) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: Jim Martin Very well said, John! |
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08 May 15 - 09:12 AM (#3707492) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: Spleen Cringe The Trailer stuff, where we are generally talking about recordings of living singers, some of whom are still working, is a potentially tricky issue as they are clearly commercial recordings made to profit from. Having said that, the artists who made the music could take a cue from Matt's 'publish and be damned' suggestion and bootleg their own albums. Given the length of time it is since the rights to the recordings have been exercised, some may feel it's a risk worth taking - whatever the potential value, in real terms, the rights have absolutely zero value to anyone, the present owners included, while they sit pointlessly gathering dust.There might even be an argument that 'reclaiming' them after so much time has elapsed is perfectly legitimate. Having said that, it's increasingly difficult to sell reissue CDs even in small runs unless its's something really sought after or special. With the Leader recordings of traditional singers, it may be a different story. Though a small number of people may want to own copies of these albums purely for listening pleasure, I'd wager that they would be of most interest to singers and musicians, folklorists, researchers, ethnomusicologists and so on. The easiest thing here would be to make good quality vinyl rips and make the sound files available as free downloads or streams for research purposes. This could probably be done legitimately via a library or archive or less legitimately through links to Mediafire or a similar service. No physical products, no scope for making a profit. There's a perfectly valid argument that field recordings of traditional singers, who were never singing for commercial gain in the first place, have no place in the private collection of someone who has no intention of doing anything with them - especially when the current copyright holders didn't even make the recordings in the first place. Yes, let them physically hold on to their property if that's important to them, in that no-one is looking to take custody of the master tapes or assume ownership of the rights to the recordings. But let the genie out of the bootle. Liberating a part of our shared cultural heritage may be theft, but is theft of something that is clearly of little value to the owner, and as long as no-one else tries to profit from the recordings, I really don't think there are any ethical issues at stake. IMHO. |
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08 May 15 - 10:02 AM (#3707514) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,Steve Can't someone make the Bulmers an offer for what is left, although I suspect much of it is too damaged to be of much use. I'd be happy to make a donation |
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08 May 15 - 10:42 AM (#3707523) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: Jim Carroll " I suspect much of it is too damaged to be of much use" I hope this is an assumption and not based on personal knowledge There is no reason why reel-to-reel material should be damaged beyond use unless it has been maliciously mishandled As a storage system, it proved extremely stable - I was once told by someone in Topic that any print-through that was going to happen, would do o within the first hour of it being reeeled onto the spool and the only way to avoid this was to "find a building with a very high building and hang each length of tape from the roof". All the recordings we have issued have been taken from reel-to-reel, most of it dating back to the mid-1970s - (no great problems) and the storytelling tape we did for Malcom Taylor in the VWML includes tales recorded for 'The Bg Hewer' and 'The Travelling People Radio Ballads in the 1960s (but not used on them) - again, no problem Some of our taped 'hoardings' date back to the mid-1960s - and the few problems we have encountered are more to do with the fact that we were forced to seek out the cheapest tape we could find rather than how old they are. Personally, my interests lie in the recordings of source singers rather than the revival ones, not for research or academic study, but it would be nice to think others were able to get the same pleasure we did from listening to the older singers I would have thought that the first step in getting access to the younger singers stuff would be to engage the support of the singers concerned or their families. Jim Carroll |
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08 May 15 - 10:59 AM (#3707531) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Jim - have you had a quick read of the article I've linked to earlier in this and previous Bulmer threads..? http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep05/articles/fxcopyroom.htm fingers crossed, the owner of any existing Leader tapes will be as lucky as you have... |
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08 May 15 - 11:30 AM (#3707544) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: Jim Carroll I hadn't PFR, but I can only rely on our own experiences. Some of our tape collection has survived for forty off years, often in the most appalling conditions, thanks to our ignorance. At one time it was housed in a freezing cold warehouse for six months when we were made homeless by an incompetent solicitor (lets kill all the lawyers) Over the last year I have been more concerned with shifting some of our CDs onto hard disc as the CG format is itself unstable - and don't get me started on external discs which crash. The solution is to archive copies what you have with somebody as many times as you can in case of unforeseen occurrences. I suggest that the least of your worries should be the state of the material at this stage. Jim Carroll |
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08 May 15 - 11:42 AM (#3707552) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,Fred McCormick Please, will folks stop worrying about the state of the master tapes. As I've pointed out several times already, I have copies of most of the Leaders and they are in sufficiently good condition for high quality masters to be copied from them. In any event, I can think of several instances of master tapes being rescued from skips and dustbins before being (re)released on LP or CD. I can even think of one set of masters of an important Irish singer, which ended up dumped under hessian on the roof of an office block. You would never believe it to listen to the digital transfer. For that matter, anyone who is interested in early blues or old time country music, as I am, will know that the vast majority of reissues have been pressed, not from the original masters, but from scratched and battered 78s that enthusiasts picked up from fleamarkets etc. If they can be returned to saleable condition, then so can the material in the Leader catalogue. Earlier John Moulden described me as being knowledgable in this sort of field. Vastly overrated I'm afraid. However, I have had some luck in pushing the right buttons, both in terms of things I've worked on, and in terms of projects which other people have been involved with. This one has me stymied I'm afraid, simply because the costs of leasing the recordings would add a large overhead to what would already be a loss making venture. If anyone can get their head around that one, I'd be glad to hear from them. That's the issue we should be worrying about, not some vague possibility that the original masters are no longer for for purpose. |
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08 May 15 - 12:12 PM (#3707565) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Fred - fair enough, I'm mostly in agreement... Expert 'pro' vinyl rips of 'mint' LPs can be a sheer pleasure to listen to. But sadly all vinyl pressing were not all equal high quality. Even mint copies of many first generation pressing can still sound shite, due to poor mastering, clumsy pressing, and cheap shoddy recycled vinyl. Obtaining the best quality audio source for digital transfer should always be encouraged & prioritised. Let's encourage the preservation and release of vital original master tapes where ever possible, not risk discarding them to decay and oblivion because of seemingly insurmountable petty legal ownership disputes. |
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09 May 15 - 04:56 AM (#3707713) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,Guest "petty legal ownership disputes" Try telling that to PRS & MCPS |
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09 May 15 - 06:20 AM (#3707728) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,Fred McCormick punkfolkrocker. Have you ever listened to a Leader's LP? If you have then you'll know that the sound quality was way ahead of any specialist folk label at that time. In any event, as I've said over and over and over and over again, till I'm blue in the face, we don't know what sort of state the master tapes are in. Until we do, we won't know whether some alternative source would be neccesary. |
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09 May 15 - 08:20 AM (#3707740) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker Fred - you seem to be getting a bit over heated pushing a non issue as far as I'm concerned - we are actually in agreement. My point is, it is because of respect for Mr Leader's outstanding skill as an engineer and producer, that so many folks emphasise that Vinyl rips should only be used as a last resort, only if tapes are beyond reasonable doubt completely lost or damaged beyond use. No one should just dismiss the importance of the master tapes [or better still the multitracks, whenever still in existence] I was one of the unaware suckers who purchased a CD [factory pressed, not burned CDr] of "Bright Phoebus" from a certain Amazon seller. First quick listen through budget small hi fi speakers was ok. More detailed listen through decent CD player and studio monitoring quality headphones revealed ugly unpleasant distortions on the dynamic peaks of Lal Waterson's singing. I would be fairly confident those distortions were not on the original Leader master tape, but a product of amateurish digital transfer of suspect vinyl [not forgetting the debacle of the bodged pressing for a large number of this LP]. Even serious pro audio technicians, using best available restoration software would be hard pressed to repair and disguise that kind of distortion for the commercial audiophile re-release LPs of this recording quality deserve.. It is not a job for well meaning hobbyists using home hi fi equipment. Pro Vinyl ripping and manual de-clicking & remastering is a skilled craft. Even some reputable commercial mastering studios may not have good enough equipment and expertise to do the job to a high enough standard. Obtaining the master tapes is of paramount concern. |
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15 May 15 - 09:28 PM (#3709177) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,LeslieLomas Hagman, Thanks for your reply. I don't really know how the website works, or if there's some way to communicate directly without leaving my email address in public, which I prefer not to do. I didn't know if I'd be notified somehow if anyone replied to my comment, and I just happened to remember that I posted a query here so checked it out and saw your reply.I also can't find my original post. Anyway, any info you could share would be greatly appreciated, re. Muckram Wakes, or to let you know my email address. (I'm just a bit of an obsolete dinosaur, in case you can't tell.) |
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15 May 15 - 10:57 PM (#3709194) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: Hagman LeslieLomas, It's straight-forward to join, and free, and comforting. Talk to Joe - he da man. Instructions here: Be aware that our forum is Free. Anonymity and Guest Posting are permitted. You are free to be anything you want EXCEPT unkind, impolite, argumentative or snooty. While anonymous Guest postings are permitted at Mudcat, you will garner much more good will by using a consistent "handle". Be aware of what personal information you decide to share within the forum. It is public, you are making statements in public here. Unlike Facebook, we don't even pretend to offer privacy. We care about your safety but we are not in the business of protecting you. Your kind and civil behavior is your best protection. For the time being, the membership transaction is human, manual, personal... One of the great things about Mudcat over the years has been our ability to meet other Mudcatters around the world in person and visit their homes and such. For this to be safe for everyone, we gotta kinda put you through the wringer a bit. So... To join this here site, you gotta talk to us. A very nice email should be sufficient. Contact Joe Offer, joe@mudcat.org We're real and not hard to find. We'd like to feel the same about you. |
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16 May 15 - 08:50 PM (#3709385) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,LeslieLomas Hagman -- Thanks for all the info. and the contact info for Joe. I guess I've gotta get used to this computer stuff one of these days. Meantime, it's been very interesting to see the conversation about the Leader/Trailer records, and to see that there are other folks interested in those old recordings. Thanks for your help. |
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03 Jun 15 - 04:26 PM (#3714295) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,Matthew After all this discussion, I'm still not clear on who retains the rights to the Leader catalogue. Does anyone here know for certain? Did Mr. Bulmer have descendants or business partners that would have inherited the rights? Last I had read about this, probably well over a decade ago, Mr. Bulmer was claiming that he would only release the albums on CD when the initial runs of LPs sold out. --A bizarre notion, to be sure, since all of the LPs in question had been out of print for decades. Combined with his complete lack of interest in monetizing a catalogue for which he no doubt paid good money, I assumed that Mr. Bulmer was not in his right mind. |
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03 Jun 15 - 04:29 PM (#3714298) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,Matthew I should add that in 2005 the record label Honest Jon's released a compilation of material from the Leader label entitled "Never the Same." I had assumed that they were somehow able to negotiate a licensing arrangement with Mr. Bulmer, which makes the fact that the catalogue saw no further revivals even more mysterious! |
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03 Jun 15 - 05:18 PM (#3714301) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,Guest |
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03 Jun 15 - 05:25 PM (#3714302) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,Guest Dyslexic finger!! Matthew. By what strange logic do you deduce that the copyright / ownership rights bought completely legally in a free market should not, when they die, go to a person's decendants or business partners? Does the Honest Jon label still exist? Have they publish any other similar material? If not, why not? Could it be that the material did not cover its production costs? Lots of questions there for you and others to ponder. |
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03 Jun 15 - 05:44 PM (#3714307) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST I have long thought that Bulmer's only interest in Leader / Trailer was in the stock of unsold LPs. |
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03 Jun 15 - 05:59 PM (#3714313) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,Matthew R. A "GUEST" wrote: "Matthew. By what strange logic do you deduce that the copyright / ownership rights bought completely legally in a free market should not, when they die, go to a person's decendants or business partners?" Apparently you lack basic reading-comprehension skills, as is often the case with anonymous trolls. I deduced or implied no such thing. I merely inquired who, after Dave Bulmer's death, retained the rights to the catalogues he purchased. I am ignorant of that information. Honest Jon's does exist. The utterly uncalled-for condescension of your post merits no further response. |
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03 Jun 15 - 06:14 PM (#3714319) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: Thomas Stern NEVER THE SAME - Honest Jon's CD 1. Lal Waterson – Never The Same 2. Nic Jones – Anna Water 3. Dorothy Elliott – Adieu To Judges And Juries 4. Alistair Anderson – The Kid On the Mountain 5. Dick Gaughan – Jock O’Hazeldean 6. Dave Burland – The Bleacher Lassie O’ Kelvinhaugh 7. Aly Bain – Niel Gow’s Lament For His Second Wife 8. Lal Waterson – To Make You Say 9. Nic Jones – Annachie Gordon 10. The Boys Of The Lough – Caoineadh Eoghain Rua 11. Dave Burland – A Dalesman’s Litany 12. Tony Rose – Blackwaterside 13. Dick Gaughan – MacCrimmon’s Lament / Mistress Jamieson’s Favourite still available. Did any of the people who keep insisting SOMEONE should reissue this material ever BUY this ??? Or the LP's which are offered on eBay and other sites ???? Thomas. |
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03 Jun 15 - 06:16 PM (#3714321) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,Matthew R. By the way, in recent years -- despite the downturn in the sales of music on physical media -- there have been hundreds if not thousands of reissues of remarkably obscure albums, some of which have done reasonably well. Labels such as Light in the Attic, Numero Group, Missisippi Records, and so forth have been in business a decade or more selling LPs and CDs of music that is much more obscure than that of Nic Jones or Dick Gaughan. The owners of these labels have been able to negotiate with the rights owners and make it worth their while to reissue the material. Certainly no one is getting rich in this market but it is nonetheless been proven to be a viable one. In light of that, the continued insistence by some on this thread (often but not always cast in fairly abusive terms) that the Trailer catalogue plainly has no financial value -- and that /must/ be the reason by Bulmer never got around to exploiting it -- rings hollow. It's possible that nobody made an offer to Bulmer that he felt was fair. But to flatly assume that the market for a reissued Nic Jones LP is so vanishingly small as to make a reissue out of the question seems unwarranted to me. I suspect that will not stop people from repeating the assertion each time this thread is revived. |
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03 Jun 15 - 06:20 PM (#3714322) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,Matthew R. cross-post I bought the Honest Jon's reissue when it was released in 2005. As for LPs, I have bought many Trailer and Leader LPs on eBay, however in many cases they fetched very handy sums. I was never made aware of Mr. Bulmer selling those LPs directly. Perhaps he did so back in the 1970s and 1980s. All of the Trailer/Leader LPs I've purchased in the past 20 years were used copies, being resold by individuals or stores. There was a brief moment when poor-quality CD copies of some Trailer albums were available, but these were mastered from vinyl copies and quickly went out of print (they too fetch high prices now). |
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03 Jun 15 - 08:29 PM (#3714335) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,Guest So where can one get the Honest Jon recording? As compilations go it seems to be a cracker. I will apologise (slightly) to Matthew in that I misinterpreted his query as being yet another dig at Dave Bulmer. That came in the following posting. As regards where the ownership lies there are enough clues in the various threads to indicate that Dave does indeed have a widow and children and business partners who (unless Dave willed the ownership to a dogs home or similar) will have inherited. |
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03 Jun 15 - 11:24 PM (#3714345) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,Matthew R. The "Never The Same" compilation can be had for fairly cheap, e.g. http://www.amazon.com/Never-Same-Various-Artists/dp/B000BNWNW4/ http://www.amazon.co.uk/Never-Same-Leave-taking-British-1970-1977/dp/B000BNWNW4/ |
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04 Jun 15 - 08:44 PM (#3714533) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,Guest So I checked it out and apart from one site offering a new item to be shipped from Japan at a price over and above what I would be prepared to pay and "only one in stock - order now", the rest were second hand items. Further investigation revealed that the CD in question appears to be the only one by this outlet offering English folk. So once more the question is - why? It also gets one good and one dodgy review. You pays your money and you takes your chance! With regards to any agreement with Celtic Music perhaps if it is so important to know it is open to whoever to ask the Honest Jon management. |
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05 Jun 15 - 02:59 PM (#3714672) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: Spleen Cringe £9.99 direct from the excellent and eclectic Honest Jon's. It's a corking album, and all above board in terms of licencing & legality. http://honestjons.com/shop/preview/27428 |
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05 Oct 16 - 04:16 AM (#3812841) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,SB Just checked out Honest Johns website. http://honestjons.com/shop/search/topic There are now quite a few (many?) Topic re-releases on CDs listed there. Do a search for 'topic' Are these from the actual masters or dubbed from pristine LPs? If they are CDs then I guess some audio decompression has been used - so they would not have the same analogue 'clarity' as the LPs themselves. But at least the older folk material is out there. But then I guess Topic are also re-releasing there back-catalogue on CDs. Huh - maybe these are Topic CDs!!!! Sadly a search for Trailer or Leader does not produce anything. As an aside I have the boxed set of Bill Leader's Copper set 'A Song For Every Season.' They're in pristine and unplayed condition. However I would be happy for someone to digitise the LPs for re-release onto CDs so long as the Copper Family got their due royalties. Any thoughts on this? |
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05 Oct 16 - 04:24 AM (#3812845) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,SB Actually I am 'quizzy.' The Watersons and Coppers recorded on Trailer / Leader but some of their recordings are being re-issued on Topic. How on earth did Bulmer allow that? |
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05 Oct 16 - 06:52 AM (#3812861) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: Reinhard Only Mike and Lal Waterson's Bright Phoebus was on the Trailer label. All other Watersons records were and are on Topic. |
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06 Oct 16 - 04:11 AM (#3813018) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,CJB And I have Bright Phoebus - largely unplayed!!!!! |
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27 Jul 17 - 08:57 AM (#3868589) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,Alistair Bright Phoebus now available again and with other tracks from the recording. Double LP for vinyl lovers... |
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27 Jul 17 - 12:48 PM (#3868656) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: Reinhard See the thread Bright Phoebus reissued |
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24 Oct 19 - 03:31 PM (#4015225) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: Gavin Paterson Playlist for Ballads & Balladeers with Gavin Paterson, Tuesday 15th October 2019. Celebrating the huge contribution of Bill Leader - the man who has produced more folk LPs/CDs/etc than anyone else. Starting around 1955 and still active today. Most of his work is on legendary labels such as Topic, Transatlantic and his own Leader & Trailer labels. Was anyone in "The Massed Choirs Of The Glasgow Socialist Singers And The Glasgow Y.C.L. Choir "? - get in touch if you were. There will be a part two before too long. First Hour Come In Come In (Theme) - Andy Stewart Blow The Man Down - Ewan MacColl, A.L. Lloyd with Harry H Corbett as shanty master. Haul Away Joe (Away Haul Away) - Stan Kelly Zoological Gardens - Dominic Behan The Twa Corbies - Ray & Archie Fisher Anji - Davy Graham The Anti-Galician Privateer - Louis Killen The Peat-Bog Soldiers - The Ian Campbell Folk Group The Butcher Boy (My Parents Gave Me Learning) - Enoch Kent Hot Asphalt - Bob Davenport The Red Flag (White Cockade & Maryland) - The Massed Choirs Of The Glasgow Socialist Singers And The Glasgow Y.C.L. Choir Carriag Dun - The McPeake Family Jazz Bo's Holiday - Clive Palmer & Robin Williamson The Wild Rover - Luke kelly and the dubliners Rap Tap Tap - Matt McGinn Lives On (Official) The Girl On The Greenbriar Shore - Tom Paley & Peggy Seeger Roberta - Alexis Korner - Musician Vocals Herbie Goins) Needle Of Death - Bert Jansch (Official) Catch up link - http://podcast.canstream.co.uk/celticmusic/index.php?id=31291&fbclid=IwAR1r44yYFtXxQBuQv3p7SaBYVvWu5o7QF_WtOlXf1lWEHR3qAfcXOc0Jh Second Hour - catch up link Dido Bendigo - The Waterson Family: A Mighty River of Song Drumdelgie - Dave Campbell (The Singing Campbells) Pound A Week Rise - The Exiles (Gordon McCulloch with mandola) Byker Hill - The Young Tradition Henry My Son - Frank Harte The Bridge Below The Town - The Glenside Ceili Band Reynardine - Archie Fisher Willy O Winsbury - Andy Irvine/Sweeney's Men The Jute Mill Song (Oh Dear Me) - Mary Brooksbank Lazlo Feher (Jim Lloyd intro) - Dave & Toni Arthur Crooked Jack - Al O'Donnell The Lichtbob's Lassie - Cilla Fisher & Artie Trezise The Lonesome Boatman - Finbar and Eddie Furey Her Father Didn't Like Me Anyway - The Humblebums The Cliffs of Dooneen - Christy Moore The John MacLean March - Dick Gaughan Bright Phoebus - Lal & Mike Waterson http://podcast.canstream.co.uk/celticmusic/index.php?id=31292&fbclid=IwAR3XChfARr-HhaBaHGPdxdEYu9TJ3rM4CF3yIXB_j-0F461Naka8svc_E For the second show, I'd like to feature some more work from the Leader/Trailer labels. If anyone has digital copies of any such LPs and willing to share with me, please get in touch at gavin dot paterson at ntlworld dot com. |
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24 Oct 19 - 07:20 PM (#4015248) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,SB Howzabout some tracks from Song For Every Season? |
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25 Oct 19 - 08:41 AM (#4015311) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: Bugsy Or Roy Baileys "Dalesman's Litany" |
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25 Oct 19 - 10:33 AM (#4015335) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST Is the man still actively recording nowadays? |
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28 Oct 19 - 05:17 PM (#4015915) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: Gavin Paterson Guest SB - I have something by The Copper family from the Box Set tomorrow. Bugsy - I have Roy doing "All Used Up" in for tomorrow but I'll do "Litany" next week. Guest anon - I understand he is active in digitizing his archive (Yeah!) but I'm not aware of anything else. He has an active Facebook page. Gavin P |
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02 Nov 19 - 09:09 AM (#4016820) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: Bugsy GAVIN, I'd love to listen 5o your programme, but unfortunately, I'm in Perth Western Australia. Cheers Bugsy |
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02 Nov 19 - 10:12 AM (#4016828) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: Dave Hanson The Dalesman's Litany is a poem by F W Moorman, set to music by Dave Keddie, it's hard to hear a better version than Dave Burland's. Dave H |
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03 Nov 19 - 12:08 AM (#4016935) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: Bugsy Dave H, I was referring to Roy Bailey's ALBUM, Trailer 3021, which I thought I remembered as "The Dalesman's Litany" but is just the "Roy Nai,ey self titled album. That said, I think it's an outstanding album and I like his version of All the songs on it. Cheers Bugsy |
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03 Nov 19 - 02:17 AM (#4016939) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: Dave Hanson I was a big fan of Roy Bailey Bugsy, I met him at Bradshaw Folk Club near Halifax many years ago, an absolute gentleman who enjoyed talking to people. Dave H |
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03 Nov 19 - 07:07 PM (#4017090) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey Don't know why I decided to have a quick look at this thread but by an amazing coincidence I am looking at a "Never the Same" CD rescued in curiosity from a rummage box - in surprisingly good order. Will probably have listen in the next couple of days and if there is anything worth coming back on I will do so. |
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04 Nov 19 - 05:02 AM (#4017127) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,CJ 'Never the Same' is a cracking compilation. Only problem with it is it is too short! |
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05 Nov 19 - 08:10 PM (#4017396) Subject: RE: Bill Leader / Trailer Records From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey Great accompaniment to our evening meal. What was it doing in a rummage box? Probably left for the family to sort and at least it didn't finish up in a skip. |