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11 Jun 14 - 07:08 PM (#3632297) Subject: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler My wife and I have now attended several public meetings to discuss the pros and cons of fracking (UK). The shale gas companies never show up. As a result we have yet to hear any of their arguments and they put themselves in a very strange position: do they think that their arguments need no explanation or are they scared that they will be shot down in flames? At the very least it is extremely rude to not turn up when you have said that you will, or simply not to reply to an invitation to speak, both of which scenarios have occurred. It looks very suspicious. Do you think that they might have something to hide? |
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11 Jun 14 - 07:30 PM (#3632302) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Ed T Most big companies, of this type, do their lobbying, unseen...behind closed 6doors, where they can "stack the deck" and "grease required palms" with the regulators and politicians...where it really counts. They normally have no public face, but employ others to state their case... in their defence...when needed, and not normally at any point before. While it is a sure thing they will know what goes on in public meeting, it is not viewed in their strategic interests to attend open public meetings, where they could be subject to one, or more unpredictable, uncontrolable and embarassing questions. You are just viewing the situation from your perspective, not theirs. While you may see it as a missed opportunity for them, they would likely see the meeting as a "no gain scenario" in the overall picture. Public opinion is only a factor if it is likely to influence those who matter (listed in my first sentence). As long as the public has a underlying need for the product, and government the taxes, royalities, and political contributions, IMO, don't expect much to change. People vent at public meetings, and feel good (and look good) for doing it. But, it normally has little impact beyond that. |
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11 Jun 14 - 07:32 PM (#3632303) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: gnu Wanna know about fracking? Go to my Facebook page Frack and read for a couple of months. Don't frack... it'll kill ya. https://www.facebook.com/groups/187245954789252/ |
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11 Jun 14 - 07:36 PM (#3632305) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: gnu BTW... here is the pinned post at Frack... There is a lot of info on this page but I just want to rhetorically ask one question before I submit the body of this pinned post... if fracking is safe, why was it exempted from the requirements of the Clean Water legislation of the USA through the Haliburton Loophole? This is a repository for news media coverage, reports, studies, ongoing debates, government actions/legislation, court cases, accidents, incidents, protests... whatever. It is NOT a discussion forum. It is meant to be a resource for anyone seeking information on fracking. Note that while I encourage people to inform members about protests/protections by sharing urls for such group pages and websites with brief descriptions, sharing posts of these is not permitted without an explanation of why they should be allowed. Thanks for your understanding. Please send me a message if you want to be added to this group as I am sometimes busy elsewhere or forget to check for requests more often than I would like. I have had too many people request to become members who have no timeline, no friends and no observable reason to join this group. If you are not here to contribute meaningful posts in line with edifying members about fracking, don't bother to request becoming a member. BTW... there are hundreds of links here in Frack so don't feel daunted when reading them. Read what you can and do what you can do to disseminate the info. Additions to our collective edification are truly appreciated. Finally, I live in nb.ca so posts may be specifically about nb.ca more so than other locations. |
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11 Jun 14 - 07:49 PM (#3632308) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: gnu BTW... in addition to NA links, you will find lots of UK links at Frack. And Australian and... nuff said. |
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11 Jun 14 - 10:18 PM (#3632328) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: GUEST,# "Why won't the fracking companies speak?" Utah Phillips said, "The Earth is not dying, it is being killed, and those who are killing it have names and addresses." |
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12 Jun 14 - 02:05 AM (#3632350) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Backwoodsman It's pointless attending meetings, or signing petitions, or camping out at likely fracking sites, or any of the other things that anti-frackers involve themselves in. The truth is that the decisions have already been made, the deals done, and the palms crossed with silver. Fracking is here, it's inevitable. My town is one that will be fracked beneath. Sold out by those bastards in Westminster. I wonder if they'll be fracking under Camermoron's home? |
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12 Jun 14 - 03:31 AM (#3632360) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: GUEST,Shimrod "The truth is that the decisions have already been made, the deals done, and the palms crossed with silver." That is true, of course. That is how things work. But it doesn't mean that you should disengage from the process and stop protesting - that is handing victory to the evil, greedy ones on a plate! Remember that everything from slavery to the, seemingly, unassailable power of the tobacco companies to poison their 'customers' were all 'done deals', decided behind closed doors. If no-one had protested there would still be captive people being forced to work on sugar and cotton plantations and people dying from preventable lung cancer. My MP once told me that there are not enough votes in the environment - well there won't be ANY votes if the environmentalists disengage! Environmentalism is a war - just as anti-slavery was a war. War is a risky business - you aim for victory but you constantly risk defeat. Wars can be won by adopting clever and novel strategies and tactics. But this particular war is not going to be won by endlessly telling people who agree with you what they already know - that's just a waste of energy and has no tactical or strategic advantage! |
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12 Jun 14 - 03:46 AM (#3632366) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Musket I'm not going to defend the fracking companies here, and many of the concerns about the possible real cost of extracting do seem to have foundation. The debate as to international independence from the likes of Saudi Arabia and Russia versus whether the cost in real terms is a subject ideal for such public meetings and consultations. The fracking companies however, whilst conveniently not attending such debates are legally just the contractors. The government are offering the licences and it is with them and the local authorities that debate should be taking place with. If you reach a stage where you are discussing with the contractors, the debate has already been won and lost. I suppose on a similar subject, we are surrounded by wind farms that we weren't asked about and the latest I hear is someone wishing to turn a field down the road from me into a solar panel farm. I must admit, I've got a few on my roof for that matter, but they are well hidden and nobody can see them... The arguments against fracking include some statistics that don't really stack up in reality. Likewise, the assurances don't seem to either. More information rather than polarised opinion is needed. Hopefully before Backwoodsman has to connect the gas cooker to the cold water pipe.... |
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12 Jun 14 - 04:09 AM (#3632375) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Joe Offer In the US, BNSF Railroad is marketing its ability to ship fracked crude oil by rail. As the Sacramento Bee reports, this poses a serious hazard for those of us who live along the railroad tracks. As far as I know, the Union Pacific is not shipping oil on the Donner Pass Route that goes past my home, but BNSF is apparently using the Union Pacific's Feather River Route, which goes through a Sierra mountain pass that is ecologically sensitive, the watershed of the Feather River that feeds into the Sacramento River. A derailment could poison most of the water supply of Northern California. -Joe- |
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12 Jun 14 - 04:56 AM (#3632385) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: GUEST,Shimrod If you're really concerned about fracking, form a local organisation. It need only consist of a few people but make sure that those people have relevant skills. You should exclude (often tediously vocal) moaners and whiners who are eager to identify problems but expect someone else to solve them. Everyone in the group should be prepared to take ownership of problems. The organisation should then set itself some limited goals and objectives As Musket says above, the implications of fracking are a bit blurred at the moment. An initial key task of your organisation should be to do some objective research and to find out exactly what the country is letting itself in for. Also find out what your local politicians think - are they pro-, anti- or undecided. If they're pro- or undecided, can you motivate the local community to make them change their minds? Remember that politicians are primarily motivated by votes. Finally - and I hesitate to write this - if fracking goes ahead, and the perils we've been warned of are real, then environmental disasters may happen: Whole communities may be damaged by earth tremors, or others subside into sink holes, or water supplies might become contaminated. In such an event, could your organisation play a role? Is there a possibility that you could advise local people what to do in such a disaster happens or help them to claim compensation? |
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12 Jun 14 - 06:02 AM (#3632400) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: gnu "...the implications of fracking are a bit blurred at the moment..." No. They are not. Research before you speak. When I said, above, that it would take one two months to review my compilation of research, I meant EXACTLY that. Two solid months - every day. The bottom line is, do not allow unconventional horizontal hydraulic fracturing of gas bearing rock. Protest is a dirty word here. It's 'protection' and it works. Fracking is being banned in many countries and in areas within many other countries. The problem is, it is not happening fast enough to prevent water and air pollution that kills... immediately and for a very, very long time after the gas is gone. I shall add, I have no intention of taking the time to edify any herein. The research is easily accessible to anyone who wishes to edify themselves. |
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12 Jun 14 - 06:31 AM (#3632407) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: GUEST,Shimrod Gnu, I bow to your superior knowledge of the subject. But if you are right, then there is even more reason to evolve effective protest strategies. |
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12 Jun 14 - 07:35 AM (#3632420) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Ed T It is an uphill battle when, for economic reasons, the regulators are often in league with energy development proponents. The promise of potential of cheap local energy to fuel lifestyles blind the public. Economic concerns increasingly outweigh environmental concerns. Few take the time to read vast amounts of research, prefering to rely on "marketing messages" for information. Well crafted industry and government marketing approaches are often effective in crafting public attutudes. Protests have a decreasing public impact, except with the converted. Trust that government regulators will protect the environment has led to much environmental degradation in the past, and will likely do so in the future. Environmental protection laws increasingly serve the interests of development. Reduced government environmental research,and the muzzling of government scientists has limited objective research, with vested interests increasingly steering and funding research and the "research message". Fewer investigative journalists has "limited the voice" on the other side of many environmental research issues. |
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12 Jun 14 - 08:49 AM (#3632450) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Backwoodsman My point was that our government have already made the decision to permit fracking, the licences have been handed out to the frackers, fracking is inevitable, fracking will happen in the UK, and no amount of protestation will alter that one iota. So I'm not wasting any more of my time protesting, I'll be better off playing my guitars and mandolin and hopefully improving my skills on those. Oh, BTW Musket, my cooker's electric! :-) |
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12 Jun 14 - 08:57 AM (#3632456) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Musket Won't be when you can get free unmetered gas direct from your kitchen sink..... Can't wait. Have you any idea how much bloody gas the aga takes? |
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12 Jun 14 - 09:33 AM (#3632466) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: GUEST,Shimrod "So I'm not wasting any more of my time protesting, I'll be better off playing my guitars and mandolin and hopefully improving my skills on those. " And burying your head in the sand. Might as well, you don't appear to be using it! |
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12 Jun 14 - 09:37 AM (#3632467) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Dave the Gnome I think it is far from said and done. When the boss of a fracking company says he will pull out of the UK unless the law is changed something has seriously rattled his cage. OK, someone has said yes, and probably been paid for it, but the companies are now seeing that it is a political hot potato and there is every chance that the laws will not be changed. That is, in my opinion, what Francis Egan is shouting about. Watch for some red faces when they have to give the money back for reneging on promises :-) DtG |
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12 Jun 14 - 09:38 AM (#3632468) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler I'm seeing my (Conservative) MP tomorrow; any suggestions for "to the point" questions to ask him. |
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12 Jun 14 - 09:58 AM (#3632475) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Dave the Gnome Try "Will you be voting for or against the rights of your constituents to own their own property and the land it is built on?" DtG |
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12 Jun 14 - 12:55 PM (#3632526) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: gnu Well (pun kinda intended), the deal is that these frackers have lawyers, guns and money and they are not afraid to use em all because they want more money. They have used them all here in New Brunswick, Canada but the people still protect... we WILL win. We have something more powerful. Knowledge and purpose. |
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12 Jun 14 - 01:00 PM (#3632530) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: GUEST,Shimrod How about asking the Tory MP: 1. Do you believe in man-made climate change? 2. Do you support fracking? 3 (a). If he answers 'no' to 1. and 'yes' to 2., ask him why you should believe him rather than 95% of the world's climate scientists and what qualifications does he hold in climate science? In addition, if the community he represents is harmed by fracking, will he be prepared to resign as that community's MP? 3 (b). If he answers 'yes' to 1. and 'yes' to 2. ask him why he's supporting the extraction and burning of yet more fossil fuels? In addition, if the community he represents is harmed by fracking, will he be prepared to resign as that community's MP? 3 (c). If he answers 'no' to 1. and 'no' to 2., ask him why you should believe him rather than 95% of the world's climate scientists and what qualifications does he hold in climate science? In addition, ask him if he's going to vote against fracking in the House? 3 (d). If he answers 'yes' to 1. and 'no' to 2. tell him that if he wasn't a Tory you might even consider voting for him. |
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12 Jun 14 - 01:21 PM (#3632547) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: gnu "Gnu, I bow to your superior knowledge of the subject." Not required. What is definitely required is for everyone to educate themselves. This is some serious shit and it affects millions of people from a local to a global scale. On the local level, all fauna and flora are affected or possibly affected, including sickness and death. Once the air and water are poisoned, ya can't fix it. The side effects, as if any need to be discussed, are 24/7/365 noise and light pollution, constant tanker truck traffic, pollution which includes many carcinogens all they way up to radioactive crap that will be a problem for thousands of years, and others. The volume of (dis)information is staggering, indeed daunting, and, more so, damning, of this method which has only been used for a little over ten years. Horizontal hydraulic fracturing of rock strata for gas extraction is unadulterated evil for profit. |
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12 Jun 14 - 01:33 PM (#3632551) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: gnu Oh... one more side effect... it takes a LOT of water and some people, even towns, are going dry because of it. |
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12 Jun 14 - 01:51 PM (#3632562) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Raedwulf The fracking companies in the UK aren't going to speak because there isn't any point. Just look at the microcosm here. The first few posts were conspiracy heaven - "it's all ben sorted out behind closed doors; bribes you know" - oh, sorry, I should have said greased palms, a much nicer description. That's aside from the knee-jerk enviromentalist "It'll bring on Doomsday!" reaction. Don't get me wrong. I'm mostly green inclined & I've no opinion on fracking either way. I do know what people are like, though. Quick to label things, especially if said things will affect themselves. Slow to listen to anything that might force them to embarassingly have to change their mind. And very vocal on very little information... Fracking in the US has no more influence on UK fracking than, for example, US employment law (which is far less generous to the employee than the employer) has on UK employment law (which is the opposite). So there is no reason to link US fracking practice to what might happen in the UK. Fracking might be a disaster in the UK, but it's more likely to be better regulated (note: I do not say "well regulated"; only "better"). What will be a disaster will be running out of energy or having to pay extortionate prices for it. Green energy, alas, remains comparitively expensive. Nuclear & fossil are castigated & reviled for a variety of reasons. The fundamental question is do you want your freezer defrosting overnight, to be fumbling for your matches & candles in the evening & morning? It's not a question people like asking. Even less do they want an answer. The reason the fracking companies don't answer is not because they're scared, but because they see no advantage in doing so. If everything they say will be buried in an avalanche of NIMBYism (which it will be), they might just as well wait for a better time to state their case. Though I do agree that saying you'll turn up & then failing to do so is shite! |
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12 Jun 14 - 05:28 PM (#3632612) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Ed T Consider the possibility that you may be seen as promoting your own form of "conspiracy" in your last post Raedwulf:) I suspect one mans reality can be easily seen as anothers conspiracy, depending on your perspective and experience on any issue. |
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12 Jun 14 - 08:14 PM (#3632637) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: gnu "The fundamental question is do you want your freezer defrosting overnight, to be fumbling for your matches & candles in the evening & morning?" Perhaps the question should be, "Do you want to die from air and water pollution when there are far better solutions?" Fuck this never ending circle of bullshit. The info is available on the internUt if you can be arsed to educate yourselves. Fracking kills. If it was just those uneducated that proffer silly arguments that would die from fracking, that would be fine with me on accounta they are part of the problem. That's it for me. I haven't the time for such tripe and lard. gnightgnu |
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12 Jun 14 - 11:28 PM (#3632652) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: GUEST,# Conspiracies are not theories, they're crimes. |
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13 Jun 14 - 09:35 AM (#3632693) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Musket You see, this is the problem. There may well be more arguments against than for, but when weird beards and people in ethnic skirts join the politicos and space cadets in shouting conspiracy, most people turn off. Something that politicians are having to think about these days is that people are far more sophisticated than they used to be. Donkeys with red rosettes just aren't enough to get the votes and philosophies out. Ditto Col Blimp standing for the Tories. it just isn't that simple any more. Start politicising it and you may as well piss in the wind. And you know, that would be sad. As an ex miner who then went into vibration for a living till first retirement, I have a few technical questions myself before I am won over by the reassurances of the fracking companies. But like many others, I am not going to be swayed by "all Tories are disingenuous bastards." |
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13 Jun 14 - 01:57 PM (#3632745) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: GUEST,Shimrod "Fuck this never ending circle of bullshit. The info is available on the internUt if you can be arsed to educate yourselves. Fracking kills. If it was just those uneducated that proffer silly arguments that would die from fracking, that would be fine with me on accounta they are part of the problem. That's it for me. I haven't the time for such tripe and lard." And that's a pity, gnu. You're obviously very angry about this - but your anger is directed against the wrong targets and will achieve nothing. What's the point of 'shouting' at Musket - or me for that matter? Have you thought of using your anger and your, '2 months of research', constructively? For instance, have you thought of using those resources to protect your community? I don't know what you've done with your 2 months of research (feel free to enlighten me) but I would point out that it will be a wasted effort if you haven't (yet?) put it to good use; as the old cliche goes, "knowledge is power" - but power needs to be directed. I have a friend who is incredibly bright and resourceful and the environmental 'bee-in-his-bonnet' is climate change. He certainly gets the message out there but he tends to alienate people by shouting at them. He's also a 'glass-half-full' sort of bloke (must control these cliches!)so any small victories are dismissed as trivial. He won't be happy until the whole city comes round to his way of thinking and drops everything in order to counter climate change - and even then he will dismiss half of the population as idiots who are doing it wrong. I don't want to 'blow-my-own-trumpet' (Oh no! Not another one!)but the environmental 'bee-in-my-bonnet' (Nooooo!!!) is biodiversity loss. I decided to try and channel my anger at local losses and try to reverse them. And you know what? I seem to be succeeding! Much to my amazement people seem to be listening and real progress is being made. I'm more hopeful now than I've ever been. And through all of this, I have not shouted at a single person. |
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13 Jun 14 - 02:58 PM (#3632757) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Ed T My observation is many people will not take the time to read "reams of research" without some strategic priming. If they are presented with a summary, and links to additional information, somes interest will be stimulated to click on the more detailed linked information. Yet, others will be satisfied with the summaries. Like it or not, it seems to be the way things are heading for many, (possibly less so for baby boomers). If a bloke want to reach them, and feels it is important enough, a challenge is to work with the route these folks get information. If not, I guess one can always fall back on fingering someone elses "lack of concern". Another alternative is always to conclude in early defeat ( aka, the "fuck 'em all, if they aren't interested in doing a bit if reading" approach). |
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13 Jun 14 - 06:34 PM (#3632781) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: gnu "Have you thought of using your anger and your, '2 months of research', constructively?" Yeah... read my page. My page is the only one that does not allow discussion or bullshit. You wanna know about fracking? Read. It's all there. A summary, Ed? Read my pinned post at Frack quoted above. I ask ONE question. There is you summary. As far as summarizing what would take two months to read and is just the tip of the iceberg? Not my job. Ya want a summary? Fracking kills in the short term, and forever. Once you frack, you can't go back. Now... my "anger"... my "2 months of research"? WTF is your problem? I said what I said and you twist my words like that? I have years into this and you trivialize that research? I SAID it would take YOU two months to read my compilation of research. Either you read what I said and do not twist what I said for your twisted pleasure or piss off. Is that angry enough for you ya stunnedasmearsefuck? Seriously... how can you write such fuckin twisted drivel and not expect people to view your posts as inane and simply that of a trolling twit? Apologize or piss off. |
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13 Jun 14 - 07:09 PM (#3632787) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Ed T Note that I did not state that I wanted, nor needed, sumnary, gnu (I tend to read and enjoy research reports).. My comments were of a general nature, related to my observation on reaching many in the population, and not focusing on any one person on Mudcat, or elsewhere. |
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14 Jun 14 - 02:13 AM (#3632850) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: GUEST,Shimrod If it would take me, or anyone else, 2 months to read your research, gnu, then it's useless. Do you think your local politician, let alone an ordinary member of your community, is going to take a two month vacation just so they can read your findings? If the research has led you to believe that "fracking kills" then you have a duty to use that knowledge protect your community. But if you scream and shout at people they are not going to listen to you and all of that research will be a wasted effort. By the way, you personally haven't persuaded me that "fracking kills" (although other stuff that I've read suggests a strong possibility that it's very dangerous). All you've done is persuaded me that you're someone who can't control and direct his anger and is probably to be avoided. So I think I'll "piss off". |
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14 Jun 14 - 05:09 AM (#3632884) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: GUEST,Musket Reality is when polarised submissions by the likes of gnu are compared to the information out there that fracking is safe and a consensus is reached. To say fracking kills is irresponsible nonsense. Eating cornflakes kills if you choke on them. When I worked down the pit, society accepted that the risk of subsidence was outweighed by the need for coal. The risks from deep mining are far higher than from fracking by incidence alone. The question isn't whether fracking kills. The question is a balance of environmental risk, NIMBY and our reliance on fossil fuels long term and independence from other countries short term. If Norway got pissed off, you may as well use your gas oven to keep your bread fresh and away from your worktop. If gnu took so long researching, how long till he presents a balanced view? |
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14 Jun 14 - 11:15 AM (#3632938) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Ed T An interesting perspective on fracking. (I cut and paste, as it may be complex to access tgrough a link): Ralph SURETTE: Fracking's magic-bullet moment fading fast - freelance journalist, Ralph Surette, Chronicle Herald, Nova Scotia, Canada, June 13, 2014 I was cruising the Internet a couple of weeks ago when this headline in the Los Angeles Times made my eyes pop: "U.S. officials cut estimate of recoverable Monterey shale oil by 96 per cent." Ninety six per cent! Since the Monterey formation accounts for two-thirds of the supposed reserves available for fracking that would make the U.S. not only energy independent but a powerhouse exporter to the world, this was a big bubble bursting. Amazing that you haven't heard of it, but such is the tenacity of the world's built-in resistance to energy reality. There have been other such downgrades from overblown claims, for both oil and gas, enough that that the Paris-based International Energy Agency, which in 2012 declared that the U.S. would overtake Saudi Arabia in oil production by 2020, has admitted that it, too, was fooled. Its prognosis now: the U.S. will import more from Saudi Arabia by 2020 as the fracking boom peaks and declines. So much for the mythical "100-year supply," thanks to fracking. In Nova Scotia as elsewhere, as we face vital energy and related economic decisions at every turn, it's essential that we keep this big-picture stuff in mind. For one thing, our own fracking debate has echoes of Monterey. A report of the review panel on fracking said 17 trillion to 69 trillion cubic feet of natural gas is available in the Kennetcook- Windsor formation, while a retired government geologist calls this bunk and puts it at a dribble. In the ample history of exaggerated petroleum estimates — where a gold-rush mentality is needed to raise investment money — it's amazing how often independent geologists have turned out to be right in questioning the big numbers. Meanwhile, a business consortium is looking for supply to justify building an $8.3-billion liquefied natural gas terminal in Guysborough County. Don't count on that happening. As gas replaces oil and coal, North America could end up having little to export. And the story doesn't end there. You'd think that if oil is in ever shortening supply, the price would rise even more, justifying more exploration. At least, that's what's endlessly preached by the industry-funded think tanks. But several other things are happening. One is that with no more easy stuff to find, exploring and developing new reserves — tar sands, the deep ocean, fracking — are becoming hideously expensive, and oil companies are cutting back, including some recently in the tar sands. This raises my own niggling question if we ever take to fracking in Nova Scotia: far from bringing us prosperity, we might end up subsidizing it, seeing that we have a notorious fondness for white elephants thinly disguised as soaring eagles. Indeed, the amount of investment now needed to develop new oil and gas just to keep up with declining conventional reserves is, by some accounts, straining the world financial system. In other words, we can't afford it anymore. Also happening is that alternatives, efficiencies and conservation are really taking off worldwide. This is especially so in the world's sun belt where solar electricity is now competitive without subsidy, and as grid improvements and storage techniques continue developing. According to some analysts, increasingly the issue is no longer "environmentalists vs. business" but "business vs. business" as alternative energy businesses take on the tottering empires of coal and oil. And both the United States and China are now clamping down on pollution, especially from coal, leaving reactionary oddballs Stephen Harper and his buddy, Tony Abbott of Australia, virtually alone to make the argument that pollution trumps everything because it pays, meanwhile laughably claiming that they're leaders in controlling greenhouse gases. As a piece in The Australian, Australia's national newspaper, proclaimed regarding Abbott's current visit to Canada: "Harper and Abbott: two fossils fooling no one." California is a leader in alternate energy. The promise of endless riches from the Monterey shale was seductive, however, starting a tormented debate about whether that commitment would waver in favour of the easy life with abundant oil, pollution or not. The message of the downgrade — the oil is there in the deep earth, but in jumbled rocks impossible to extract with today's technology — is that there's no easy fossil-fuel route out of the energy crunch, and even if there seems to be one, it's at the cost of ignoring climate degradation. Something to take away here in Nova Scotia, if we get tempted by magical thinking, which we always are. The chastened IEA could only call for a renewed and urgent commitment to alternatives, efficiency and conservation. That is the reality. |
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14 Jun 14 - 11:46 AM (#3632943) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: GUEST,HiLo I suspect that Mr. Surette has valid points. My observation is that the same people who rant about fracking are the same people who rant about wind farms and tidal power. There seem to be people who just don't get the fact that supplies of fossil fuels are finite and that we need to put solar panels and wind farms everywhere. And, oh yes, we need to stop driving everywhere and allowing the building of subdivisions where you can't but a litre of milk. |
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14 Jun 14 - 04:39 PM (#3632996) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler Thank you everyone for your suggestions and interest. So, we went to see our MP on Friday and he did seem genuinely concerned by what we had to say, particularly when we pointed out that his own house was more likely to be fracked under than ours. We took along a copy of the local geological map and being a man of some intelligence he was able to follow our arguments about the complicated sequence of faulting in the rocks beneath our area and how this created a multitude of possible leakage lines for fracking pollutants and gas losses. We had previously sent him some information about our concerns and he appeared to have taken at least some of it in. He was not going to make a commitment to anything until the wording of the bill to change the trespass law is finalised but he said that this is the first issue in which he feels that he must put the needs of his constituency above the Conservative party line. We left him with a letter to reply to once he has had time to look at other information that we gave him. He did seem shocked that the fracking companies are not turning up when they have said that they would and suggested looking at ways to arrange meetings with selected representatives of concerned groups so that they cannot back out on the grounds of having to deal with "extremists". He may be right in guessing that this is the reason for their non-appearance. When we get a reply to our letter I will post the answers here, I hope that enjoys the research that he will need to do. He is going to consult with other Lancashire MPs so if you live in Lancashire go and meet with your MP. In fact wherever you live go and see your MP, Congressman, or whatever representative you have and also the candidates for the realistic opposition parties. Good luck! |
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14 Jun 14 - 04:49 PM (#3632999) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler I forgot to mention that we had an observer in with us (to which we gave consent) from the BBC, looking at the possibility of making some sort of documentary about MPs surgeries. It won't feature us as it's at an early stage of planning but could make an interesting program. |
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15 Jun 14 - 07:13 AM (#3633167) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 1 They don't speak because there is no need. They control the governments.. Our Ancient Laws of Trespass are about to be changed if Cameron gets his way..and this was mentioned in the Queen's Speech last week. If your house is in their way, they will simply frack beneath it, not tell you, and you will have no legal rights to stop them. Your house price will plummet, you will get all sorts of terrible chemicals floating up through your ground and the rest....is history... Google 'The List Of The Harmed' to see what has happened to many people in Pennsylvania. Fracking kills. It has already killed many fish and animals and is making many humans very, very sick. It poisons our Water Aquifers around the world and we have no idea how long these will take to recover, if they EVER will.... Then, there are the earthquakes of course...one already having happened the first time they fracked, just outside Blackpool... If you need to know more, then go to Vanessa Vine's Facebook page...also the 'BIFF! Britain & Ireland Frack Free' FB page and the 'Fracking Hell' FB page too, to be kept right up to date on what is happening in the UK. Vanessa is doing amazing things raising awareness...and the beautiful Mohawk Warrior Unity Flag she flies at many of the anti-fracking protests, was sent to me via John, (part Mohawk), from Pennsylvania who is a part of the Idle No More movement, which again, can be googled. That flag, which is flown at many Idle No More protests in Canada and the USA is now Vanessa's, as I gave it to her on the understanding she took it out there and spread the story of Idle No More and the huge part THEY are playing in standing up against Fracking in every way they can. It is the fracking industry, Cuadrilla's CEO, Frances Egan, who has demanded that either the fracking laws are made easier in this country, (thus, the Trespass Laws are being changed), or, he will pull out. Lord Browne, who is advising this government on fracking and our energy policy, owns 30% of Cuadrilla... George Osborne's father-in-law is in the fracking industry and is the man who suggested they frack in 'the wasteland of the North' Join the dots....it all leads back to The Fracking Mafia who are ultra powerful and truly pissed off with Vanessa and all her Anti-Fracking friends who are causing chaos by walking, slowly, in front of every fracking lorry they can find...Their protests at Balcombe, last Summer, and Barton Moss in Salford, earlier this year, were amazing...Almost every arrest made by the Corporate Police Officers was thrown out of court... The Fracksters are TRULY pissed off with what's going on..and Greenpeace 'fracked' Cameron's country cottage during the day of the Queen's speech, in a bloody wonderful action which raised a lot of awareness.... The only ones who can stop fracking in this country are The People themselves, so please, JOIN THEM and do NOT be Derelict In YOUR Duty any longer, towards the legacy of your Children's Future, or in being a Caretaker for Mother Earth... |
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15 Jun 14 - 07:20 AM (#3633170) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 1 Vanessa Vine - Facebook page Please check out the 'photos' page in here, brilliant photolinks to share out! BIFF! Britain & Ireland Frack Free - Facebook page Fracking Hell - Facebook page EVERYTHING you need to know about Fracking and the Mafiosa behind it. Ian used to be in the Oil Industry so he knows what he's talking about. 3 hours long, but worth every minute. Ian now attends as many Anti-Fracking Protests as he can in the UK, making many videos of the shocking police brutality against peaceful, legal demonstrators. FRACKtured Future - Youtube video by Ian R Crane |
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15 Jun 14 - 07:48 AM (#3633185) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Musket Who rattled her cage? This thread had the potential, Gnu's hissy fit apart, of being a serious consideration of the topic. Then Lizzie woke up with wild accusations that have no bearing on the pros and cons of exploring this energy source. |
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15 Jun 14 - 08:03 AM (#3633188) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 1 Please, do NOt patronize me. I have come to know a GREAT deal about Fracking from people who know far more about it than you do, Musket, who live with it every single day too... Already they have dumped untreated radio-active fracking waste in the Manchester Shipping Canal...I believe I forgot to mention that little gem, earlier..They also spray it across roads, of course, and the roads crack apart from the weight of their lorries... But hey, let's let Cameron continue to bribe the Councils of England with £MILLIONS being given to them if they agree to fracking in their area.. Odd that he's found the money...in this 'Age Of Austerity' Oh, hang on a mo, no doubt his Fracking Buddies put it forward for him... IF you have a problem with me, send me a PM and keep your personal dislike of me off the thread. Thanks. |
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15 Jun 14 - 08:20 AM (#3633195) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Musket I don't dislike you. I don't have any view of you. Your posts on the other hand don't sit well in intelligent debate. I just want to discuss the pros and cons of fracking as per the op, and your diatribe brings nothing material to the conversation. The op has concerns, brought up with his MP and we are lacking the view of the contractors. I am interested as to why. It's important that this potential source of energy is debated objectively because if we use it and regret it, or not use it when it us safe to use, we are bloody fools either way, and silly "us & them" distractions are irrelevant. This is too important to be treated as a political soap opera. |
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15 Jun 14 - 09:28 AM (#3633215) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: GUEST,Shimrod So, Lizzie, "fracking kills" does it. At the outset, I should say that, if I was a disinterested observer, I would be no more convinced by your hysterically verbose tirade than I was by gnu's (unsummarised) research (that would take 2 months to read)and his scornful insults. But let's say that you're right and you've uncovered a dastardly plot to poison the world. I assume that you've organised some sort of campaign against it, have you? And if so, how much progress have you made so far and can you let us know what works and what doesn't work? You still seem to be employing the hysterically verbose tirade - so, perhaps, in spite of my misgivings, you find that that tactic does work, do you? |
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15 Jun 14 - 09:36 AM (#3633219) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Greg F. I have come to know a GREAT deal about Fracking Ah, but then, Liz, you know everything about everything. Why don't you go back to clicking multiple "Likes" on FarceBook which will doubtless save the world. |
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15 Jun 14 - 02:05 PM (#3633298) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: gnu " would be no more convinced by your hysterically verbose tirade than I was by gnu's (unsummarised) research (that would take 2 months to read)..." There ya go. Haven't got the time to edify yourself so ya don't bother. Yeah, hissy fit indeed. That's the reason for the hissy fit and the scornful remarks. Apparently, even these do not work. |
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15 Jun 14 - 03:08 PM (#3633317) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: GUEST,Shimrod You still don't get it, do you, gnu? You see, what I object to is that you're both indulging in a: "I'm much, much, much more concerned than you are!!" competition. Lizzie is indulging in one of her usual verbose tirades, in which she seeks to demonstrate that she's very, very, VERY much more concerned than anyone else whilst you're determined to show that you've got much, much, much bigger 'research cojones' than anyone else. But I contend that if you're both as concerned as you say you are, you would both be coming up with effective strategies to oppose fracking - and you would be sharing those strategies with other concerned people. |
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15 Jun 14 - 03:43 PM (#3633327) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Ed T Factors to consider: -Who to trust. We see criminal trials where science testimony experts emerge, whose creditionals seem impecible, but tgey paint completely different stories. Taken this intk consideration, why should one put viewpoints, or so-called research opinion from an "expert" (with a vested interest) from either side of an issue on a higher platform? I normally seek information from neutral sources, unattached from either side of an issue-though this is becoming harder to find. -Protests, alone, (in different firmats) do a good job of drawing attention to an issue-but, little to convert those not already converted. In fact, some protests may have the opposite impact than intended, turning people off on an isdue. -What is the alternative? People are attached to their incomes and lifestyles, change normallt is resisted, without reasonable alternatives. Some alternatives may be more harmful, economic and environmentally, than those being protested. What seems to be the lack of concern for the environments/economies in other locals may also be a turn off. Some protesters drive to protests in un-needed gas guzzling trucks/SUVs, with little concern for environments where the fuel they "guzzle" comes from. -Unproven fear tactics are a turn off. It takes no time to spot these scar tactics being used to support a cause. Often, these are "sketchy", and not based on the entire truth, and not supported by valid research and reported in mainstream media. -Conspiracies. No need to say much more on this one. Quite often, this involves linking the dots between unrelated situations to prove a point. Many people have a gut feeling that something is "amiss" , but fail to spot the lapse in logical reasoning. - - |
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16 Jun 14 - 03:09 AM (#3633440) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler I think that in the UK we are dealing with a population that has little knowledge of fracking and therefore most people have no opinion as yet. When speaking to friends and acquaintances I find that most of them know very little about it or have not heard of it. In view of the strength of feeling of those opposed to it there seems to be sparse attention paid by the media. |
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16 Jun 14 - 05:04 AM (#3633458) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 1 Nope, I put those links in..and the other info, so that you guys could find out more from the very people who know more than any of us, and who are out there on the ground, in front of the fracking lorries, at the drilling sites, talking to MPs, on TV and Radio, in a VERY scientific way, which you'll all love.... However, rather than follow the links, you've fallen down your own Fracking Pit of Toxicity in rabbitting on about me...as ever.... New scientific study, I'd blue clicky it, but I really can't be arsed, as you won't look at it anyway...It's about the future, your CHILDREN'S future, when The Methane continues to rise and rise and rise up from the abandoned fracking wells... http://thetyee.ca/News/2014/06/14/Oil-Wells-Spout-Methane/ Yes, fracking kills. Google for all the animals and fish, cats and dogs who've already become so sick, or died..and google 'the list of the harmed', as I suggested... OR, just carry on with the Lizzie Bashing if you so choose... |
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16 Jun 14 - 05:17 AM (#3633463) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Musket It's the "know more than any of us" that ensures normal people don't bother reading anything else you have written above Lizzie. The debate needs facts, not suppressive arrogance. If an argument needs such tactics, it usually has no persuasive argument to offer, otherwise they would be put forward objectively and invite challenge. |
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16 Jun 14 - 05:57 AM (#3633478) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: GUEST,Shimrod So how do we effectively oppose fracking then, Lizzie? |
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16 Jun 14 - 06:44 AM (#3633495) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Ed T For those not in the USA, and wondering wtf is the halliburton loophole, and what does it have to do with fracking in my country, the link below provides a good, balanced summary....btw,.it is USA leglislation exempting fracking from the USA federal safe water act. It is a good example of politicians putting personal and economic interests ahead of environmental interests. There have been attempts to rectify the loophole, through legislative changes. The legislation has no influence beyond the USA. halliburton loophole |
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16 Jun 14 - 06:46 AM (#3633496) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Musket I'd go back a step and ask why rather than how? The engineering and geology has been lost in the fog of commercial and political intrigue and conspiracy theory. |
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16 Jun 14 - 08:44 AM (#3633515) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Greg F. So how do we effectively oppose fracking then, Lizzie? Easy peasy. Get on FarceBook & click away. Problem solved. |
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16 Jun 14 - 01:36 PM (#3633627) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler Just noticed that a condition for installing a new wind turbine base on top of the hill near us states that the excavation must not breach the coal seam beneath as this would allow the escape of coal bed methane. Now this is not the layer of rock that the frackers are aiming for, this is much nearer the surface. So how do they intend to circumvent that particular rule if they drill here? |
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16 Jun 14 - 04:39 PM (#3633683) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Musket I don't remember much about the geology side of coal mining, as I was a sparky. However, I do know that if there are impervious strata layers above a coal seam, you should be ok. There is a wetlands bird sanctuary at Clumber Park near Worksop that never existed till we mined under it. And drained the lake accidentally for good measure. Considering we were in the Parkgate seam (3,000 ft below) it was quite impressive as subsidence goes. But no methane escape. I don't know how relevant this is, but fracking is all about releasing methane rather than containing it. |
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16 Jun 14 - 07:00 PM (#3633719) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler One coal seam is near the surface close to our house. The data recorded from our water borehole gives it as 43 feet down and 3 feet thick with shale layers above. This is on a hillside and close to the house. There have been sink holes further down the hill between 4 and 10 feet deep where the old workings have collapsed, the seam being closer to the surface. There is a recent collapse in the next field uphill of where the track to our house runs, at a level that seems to indicate that the seam is only a couple of feet below the surface and the other day I noticed bubbles appearing in a puddle on the track so presumably we have methane escaping to the air already! Our soil is about 6" to 15" thick with clay beneath, about 6" of pure clay and then with increasing amounts of stone and grit included followed by rocks. I should probably report the gas bubbles to the Coal Authority. |
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17 Jun 14 - 09:35 AM (#3633903) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Ed T On a recentCanadian report on health related to fracking: Little info on fracking's long-term health impact: N.S. public health expert SELENA ROSS, June 16, 2014 - One of Nova Scotia's top public health experts says there's a dearth of information about how fracking affects human health, especially far into the future. However, after reviewing what evidence there is, Dr. Frank Atherton believes the known hazards can be minimized with careful planning. "I think there are risks to health — there are some real risks to health and some theoretical risks to health," he said in an interview. "But they are manageable, as they are manageable for any other industry in the short term. "I am worried about the long term, and there are sometimes very long-term consequences which are just not known yet." Atherton, who also teaches at Dalhousie, is the province's deputy chief medical officer of heealth but is serving independently on the review panel looking into the controversial method of oil and gas extraction. His report was not written on the province's behalf. The paper, released Monday night, draws on 37 reports and studies, including ones by the chief medical officer of New Brunswick, Public Health England and the European Parliament. For people living close to fracking wells, health risks include respiratory problems, exposure to toxins and even the stress and raised blood pressure that people could suffer from weeks of noisy drilling. Atherton included specific recommendations in his report, one of which is to require wells to be a certain distance from people's homes. About half of Nova Scotians live in rural areas, a higher proportion than many places, he said. Many of Atherton's recommendations would increase the province's knowledge of the industry. One suggestion was to require fracking companies to release information about the chemicals used in their fracking fluids. A Health Canada report compiled 750 chemical components used in the industry from 2005 to 2009, some of which can be found in common household products. However, companies have sometimes insisted on keeping chemical ingredient lists private for proprietary reasons. A third recommendation was simply to increase monitoring of health and environmental effects, if Nova Scotia does open the door to fracking, in order to create better data. "There are places, of course, where hydraulic fracturing is taking place without those mitigation measures in place, like in the States," Atherton said. "Now, can you document actual harm to individuals? Well, you can't really, because you can only go by anecdotes. "Even if those mitigations were not in place (elsewhere), you can't put your hand on your heart and say there will definitely be harm to people. But what you can say is that if those mitigations are in place, then the risk of harm is reduced, and that's what the public health approach is trying to do." Atherton said that certain groups, including children, pregnant women, the elderly and people with respiratory illnesses, could be particularly vulnerable to various health risks. The respiratory danger comes from increased ozone levels that may accompany large-scale fracking industries, according to the report. Toxin exposure could come in many forms, including from groundwater contamination or as a result of spills or accidents, or from local air pollution. "Although the amounts of contaminants in the air may be within safety standards, these standards are often constructed to allow for single-dose exposures on an adult rather than for chronic, long-term exposure to people who work or live around natural gas installations," Atherton wrote. He also pointed to a very small increased risk of cancer, a danger that has been modelled rather than proven with case studies. A bigger risk would be to workers, but that's true for many industries, he said. There could also be health benefits to fracking in Nova Scotia, especially bringing more money to rural economies, he wrote. Income is closely linked to health, which he defined as being "a state of complete physical, mental and social well-being and not merely the absence of disease or infirmity." He also compared the fracking industry with other energy industries, such as coal and wind power, which bring their own health considerations. He said he was surprised to find that it's unclear whether extraction and use of fracked gas, overall, is less polluting than using conventional oil and coal energy. |
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17 Jun 14 - 09:57 AM (#3633919) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Musket Try setting fire to it, that'll tell you whether it is methane. When I was in Azerbaijan a few years ago, they had a burning hillside that was quite impressive. Decided it was safer to do that than let it go, although why I don't know. Methane rises. They do have a mud field with bubbling escapes that looks spooky (named Clanger Land by the nearby BP people) but they don't set fire to that. I also recall from the same visit a flame that had been from such natural sources had a shrine built around it in the middle ages and was an everlasting flame etc, (many shi'ite sects grew from fire worshippers) and this was OK till about fifty years ago, when the soviets started fracking, (or very similar) in nearby fields, causing the everlasting fire to extinguish. When we visited it, they turn the gas on (via a metered pipe) for visitors. I took more photos of the pipe and meter than the medieval shrine if truth be known. Appealed to my sense of humour. |
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17 Jun 14 - 05:52 PM (#3634054) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Thompson Those earthquakes in Alaska - anything to do with fracking? |
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17 Jun 14 - 10:28 PM (#3634132) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: GUEST,Stim The Alaskan earthquakes, no. Alaska is one of areas of great seismic activity on the Ring of Fire. However there are daily earthquakes in the fracking areas in and around Oklahoma, Arkansas, and up through the Dakotas where there had been none before--these are thought to have been caused by the massive amounts of water used in fracking that are subsequently pumped back into the ground, for lack of anywhere else to dispose of them. |
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18 Jun 14 - 04:07 AM (#3634197) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 1 >>>"So how do we effectively oppose fracking then, Lizzie?"<<< From Greg? >>"Easy peasy. Get on FarceBook & click away. Problem solved."<< Actually, for once, Greg, you're right. There is a massive collection of people from all around the world on FB now who can put out urgent calls for help from local people, which are acted upon immediately....As soon as the call goes out "Boots on ground, please, here!"...the Good Men & Women True are off and running there as fast as they can get there... From there, they put everything that is happening on to Facebook, in either 'live' video coverage, or Youtube videos shortly after the problems have happened.... We can instantly contact the local police forces too, as we did with Greater Manchester Police and West Sussex, putting out numbers for people to call, to complain about the police action, every call having to be investigated and monitored and replied to. The gathering of evidence is now instantaneous and is being shared around the world, not just from this country, but from the Fracking protests in Australia, America, Canada, Romania etc...etc..etc.. As to claiming to know MORE than others, I've never made that claim, Musket, you have, in your never-ending put-downs of me. Of course, in a more normal site you would get the occasional "Thanks for those links, Lizzie" (or the name of whoever else is putting them up, but I forget at times, what a terribly negative place this can be, made up, sadly, in the main, it seems to me, of people who regard Mudcat as their own little private 'club' and anyone who dares to enter, whom they choose to dislike is made to face endless crappy posts about their intelligence or their personality... Also, most of the folks who do this to me are men, and I guess they struggle at times with a woman who not only has a modicum of intellgence, but who refuses to let The Bastards silence here, even when they send out for re-inforcements, via their PMs or emails... "The Witch is back, hurry over and slam her intelligence!!" I put the links there, made by OTHERS, not me, who know more about fracking and the folks involved in it, in the UK (and other countries too) than ANY of you here in this site, because THEY are the amazing people being arrested, abused by our police force, abused by other police officers around the world, talking with and to the politicians, journalists etc...who have learned about fracking inside out and upside down and back to front, some being from the oil industry themselves who have worked alongside these corrupt bastards, leaving because they could take no more of the evil that they are doing...... If you don't want to open those links, fair enough... BUT, when over 60% of the UK HAS been fractured to pieces, methane left to rise up through people's house, no legal comeback for them in ANY way at all, for all our ancient Laws of Trespass have been removed, don't come moaning to me..... Capiche? EXCELLENT!! And now, I'll leave you to your MIsogynistic Little Boys Club... Have a good day y'all.... |
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18 Jun 14 - 04:30 AM (#3634203) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 1 From the Facebook page of 'BIFF! Britain & Ireland Frack Free', today, as they seek to frack in our South Downs National Park....... "THE TIME TO ACT IS NOW! ANYONE CAN OBJECT. PLEASE DO NOT LEAVE IT TO EVERYONE ELSE THE DEADLINE IS: THIS FRIDAY- JUNE 20TH, 2014 PROPOSED OIL&GAS EXPLORATION at KIRDFORD/WISBOROUGH GREEN A small company Celtique Energie (CE) has applied to construct an Exploratory Oil/gas well 0.8 miles from the village of Wisborough Green on the boundaries of the Kirdford and Wisborough Green parishes. This information is a guide about how to object to that planning application, produced by Keep Kirdford Wisborough Green (KKWG). Villagers and those who know the area and value it are very concerned about it. IF you share these concerns it is important to use your voice now. Every objection counts, and the more objections sent in, the better. 1. You can object online or by writing to WSCC Planning, County Hall, Chichester, W Sussex PO19 1RH quoting the Reference No: WSCC/083/13/KD, LAND SOUTH OF BOXAL BRIDGE, WISBOROUGH GREEN, You can read the application at WSCC Planning applications 2. It is important that each objection is presented in your own words. Photocopied or template responses may be ignored. 3. Every adult can object as can friends and family who know the area. 4. Objections should be specifically made about this site. General concerns about issues such as government energy policy will be ignored. 5. Please DO NOT object on the grounds of the possible future use of "fracking" or on any adverse impact on house prices – these are NOT valid reasons to object and your letter will be dismissed. 6. Your objection can be as long or as short as you like. The following pages contain information to help you to decide whether or not to object, and the best way to do it. DON'T DELAY, OBJECT TODAY WHY BE CONCERNED ABOUT THIS? FRACKING is a way of extracting natural gas or oil beneath our feet by pumping a cocktail of chemicals plus water and sand at high pressure to crack open shale rock under the ground. The technology is new and untested in the UK and the energy produced is referred to as unconventional gas. The GEOLOGY of an area needs to have no faults or the materials moving up and down the well could appear in unexpected places and risk contaminating the air and water. The geology under the Weald is riddled with fissures and faults according to Professor of Geology, David Smythe, is thus entirely unsuitable. Planning permission is needed in the first place for drilling an EXPLORATION WELL. This is STAGE 1. If oil or gas is found, further permission is needed for a 2nd STAGE EXPLOITATION WELL. This could then lead to a site developing into a WELLPAD covering 2hs (the size of a football pitch) which could, in turn, contain up to 10 wells. And then, by using underground directional drilling, this could result in up to 100 horizontal drill paths for any one unconventional gas drilling wellpad above ground. The cumulative impact of many wells would thus be much higher than that for that an individual well. WATER: A large amount of water is required at the EXPLOITATION stage – up to 5 million gallons per well or more, hence 50 million gallons for one wellpad containing 10 wells. Sussex is an area of extreme water shortage. POLLUTION DANGERS: While some 30-70% of the water used remains under-ground, the flowback waste water which emerges from the well is contaminated, needs to be cleaned and disposed of. There is a danger of polluting the water aquifer both from the fracking fluid and from toxic and radioactive material originating under-ground (known as NORM, Naturally Occurring Radioactive Material). TRANSPORT: Each well, if was to be Exploited, would, according to an independent oil executive, Peter Carson, require 400 tankers to transport the amount of water needed. Thus a well pad would need a minimum of 4,000 tanker trips. LOCAL COMMUNITY: This proposed development would lead to the industrialisation of a rural area, to heavy transport using unsuitable lanes and roads and risks to the environment of noise, vibration and pollution and disruption lasting years. WILDLIFE AND LANDSCAPE: this area of the Weald is specially protected in view of its sensitive landscape, habitats and species. In particular, very rare internationally important bats use the site at Kirdford near Boxal Bridge to forage for food. Any light, noise or vibration would cause disturbance to these mammals and would be considered as illegal under the European Union Habitats Directive. DARK SKIES: this is one of the few areas in the UK where the stars can clearly be seen and the South Downs National Park wants to get the area designated as a Dark Skies Reserve. HOW BEST TO OBJECT TO THIS APPLICATION Should you wish to object we suggest you might want to use some of the following points or those mentioned opposite – they have been chosen to be relevant to the planning rules rather than based on wider concerns: DO NOT MENTION FRACKING – ONLY USE THE TERM "DRILLING" The proposed site on land to the south of Boxal Bridge is completely inappropriate: • It is less than 500ms from the SDNP and within the CDC buffer zone of 7 kms • Is adjacent to a Sussex Wildlife Trust reserve at Northup Copse • Lies within the specially protected landscape of the Low Weald • Is underlain by a geology which is very faulted and thus unsuitable • Lies on and is adjacent to areas used by the very rare Barbastelle and Bechstein bats which are internationally important species • Will force large volumes of Heavy Goods Vehicles through the village • Will involve the prevention of parking round the Green (proposed by the company) • Is on an area which was flooded at Christmas and can only be accessed by lanes which themselves were flooded • Will involve the use of large amounts of clean water in a water-stressed area and will leave unknown amounts of materials within the ground • Will bring back to the surface liquids including Naturally Occurring Radioactive Materials (NORM) which would require particularly special attention. Overall Costs and Benefits • This is an application for an Exploratory well. However, it is clear from company information supplied to their investors that the ultimate goal is to move to full production. They emphasise the need for Oil&Gas and possible benefits from production whilst, at the same time, dismissing (wishing to ignore) the adverse impacts of Exploration/Exploitation as unimportant because it is "only temporary". BUT a recent report (BGS, May 23rd) states there is NO Gas under our area. Traffic, Access and Road Safety • Kirdford Road is a winding lane with several pinch points that is structurally unsuitable (in layout and in load-bearing strength – witness Boxal Bridge) for large vehicles and heavy loads. • The extra traffic will generate significant air and noise pollution as well as vibration. • There is no pavement but the lane does form a link to the village. • The road which would be used does not provide a turning circle at the cross roads – the traffic would need to cross onto the wrong side of the carriageway. • The proposed route would pass the Green, the playground, the Pubs and their open views – areas which many people use regularly and which provide recreation and economic support for villagers and visitors. Noise, Light and Visual impact • This area is one of the most tranquil in the county – it is completely dark and quiet at night. It is contained within an area the South Downs National Park wishes to see included in its Dark Skies Reserve. Air Quality • Emissions from HGVs and large static diesel engines will create problems for those living nearby. In US and Australia the nearest residential building to such drills must be a minimum of 1500 ms away. Water • Even during Exploration there are risks that the surface water could become contaminated on site or on the road. Potentially contaminated drilling mud and drill cuttings will have to be transported out by road. It the well leaks at some point it provides another potential source of pollution. Technical consequences • According to figures supplied by the Oil/Gas industry 6% of all boreholes developed in the UK leak from the start and 50% leak within 30 years. By the end of a rig's lifetime they all leak. This enables the fluid put down the well to come back and to get into places this type of fluid should not be found ie acid; chemicals or sand Contingency plans – what if something goes wrong? • Guess who pays? • Celtique Energie employs less than 30 employees. Given the nature of the work and their record to date we would question CE's ability to exercise proper oversight. • Once they locate any supply of Oil/Gas under our feet they will sell on the site to larger concerns such as their partner, Magellan. • Assertions (rather than evidence) are regularly made about the UK regulatory framework and its ability to oversee the processes involved. It is fragmented and the responsibilities are shared out. When noise limits were exceeded at Balcombe local people complained but nothing happened. A local resident had to buy equipment and measure the sound levels before anything got done to keep them in line with the agreed condition and get the unreasonable level of sound reduced. ANYTHING ELSE? Please contact us as below. Repeatedly assertions are made about the importance and value of UK energy resources and their extraction including the newly developed techniques for obtaining shale gas and oil. While we agree that the UK uses a lot of energy and needs to think about the future….what we have looked for in connection with this application is the current state of knowledge and independent EVIDENCE which has been confirmed by other reports and that EVIDENCE shows how damaging the process would be. STOP PRESS Celtique Energie, applied to do the same at Fernhurst in the South Downs National Park (SDNP) and have had to supply extra information. 30 new documents are now available on the SDNP website for Fernhurst with a closing date for comments of May 27th, 2014 but the Park is accepting any information sent before their decision meeting on July 10th. Reference No: SDNP/13/05896/CM; 9 Acre Copse Look on these websites for help and guidance: Frack Free Fernhurst: www.frackfreefernhurst.com/ South Downs National Park www.southdowns.gov.uk/planning/search PLEASE OPPOSE BOTH of these APPLICATIONS JOIN KKWG and help safeguard our area, its people and its wildlife. www.No-drilling.co.uk 'BIFF! Britain & Ireland Frack Free' - 'Frack Free Fernhurst' post which is, at present, the top post on this page And THIS, Greg, old chum, IS the POWER which lies within Facebook, because so MANY Good Men & Women True lie within Facebook, you see....all working their butts off 24/7, to create a better world, by linking people together, day by day, step by step... Thank you |
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18 Jun 14 - 05:24 AM (#3634216) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Musket I didn't read all the drivel, but the bit at the end saying that men and women lie within Facebook struck a chord... Apparently, nobody dismisses Lizzie Cornish because she is offensive but because we are men. Get a fucking life. |
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18 Jun 14 - 09:45 AM (#3634283) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Greg F. From Greg: >>"Easy peasy. Get on FarceBook & click away. Problem solved."<< Sez Liz: "Actually, for once, Greg, you're right". Now that has to win a prize for the most fatuous and idiotic statement of the year & possibly the decade. Atta girl, Liz! |
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18 Jun 14 - 09:56 AM (#3634287) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Greg F. And THIS, Greg, old chum, IS the POWER which lies within Facebook, because so MANY Good Men & Women True lie within Facebook, you see....all working their butts off 24/7 Gee, you'd think that with all that clicking and typing 24/7 their butts would cramp up, Liz. Butt then its a lot easier than getting their butts up from behind their computer screens & getting out into the real physical world and actually accomplishing something instead of engaging in techno-masturbation. |
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18 Jun 14 - 11:00 AM (#3634306) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 1 I do apologize, Greg and Musket.... I'll put it in words which are a little easier for you to understand... You see, WORD goes OUT on Facebook, and The Anti-Fracking Protestors then MOBILIZE themselves, either by turning up at Protests, as they have been doing up at Balcombe and Barton Moss in the past, or by getting MASSES of people to sign petitions, write in to Councils, phone, send a letter, email, etc..Phone Radio and TV stations too, often with people taking PART in these programmes themselves. There we are.... Easy Peasy to get the gist of what Facebook is used for by the many intelligent and passionate people now working hard to turn the world around... Of course, Greg, your 'friend', Russell Means, also had the intelligence to understand the power of Facebook, as does John Trudell too, which is why Russell used it a LOT whilst he was alive... Shame you didn't listen to him a little deeper, eh? Do have a nice day, boys..... |
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18 Jun 14 - 11:11 AM (#3634308) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Musket If you want to turn the world round, vote for a party with your mindset at the next election. Do your petitions, stand passively to let people know your objection. In the meantime, wasting police time wastes my taxes and I don't pay the police to investigate spurious fettering by organised groups, I'd rather they spend their time catching criminals, thank you. After all your bluster, hidden in the diatribe, are valid discussion points regarding ecology and impact. If you want to influence, stick to them. Your credibility in the eyes of those you seek to influence may increase. I wish reality had your polarised confidence though, because you obviously know something the rest of us don't... And that isn't a good start if you want to get your message over to sophisticated people, as most are, especially in Sussex, where the price of onyx coffee tables trumps discussion on wildlife. |
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18 Jun 14 - 01:55 PM (#3634349) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Greg F. Of course, Greg, your 'friend', Russell Means...Shame you didn't listen to him a little deeper, eh? Don't you DARE try to quote Russell Means to me, you silly, self-important, delusional, ignorant bitch. Stick with what you actually know, which is basically fuck all, Liz. Just keep playing in cyberspace and pretending to yourself and others that you're actually accomplishing something. Its a lot safer than actually being in the trenches. |
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18 Jun 14 - 01:58 PM (#3634351) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Greg F. because you obviously know something the rest of us don't... Some fucking hope, Musket. Liz just PRETENDS to know, and fellow idiots take her at her word. |
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18 Jun 14 - 03:12 PM (#3634368) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Dave the Gnome either by turning up at Protests, as they have been doing up at Balcombe and Barton Moss in the past, I didn't see you at Barton Moss, Lizzie. You must be a lot less noticeable in real life than you are in your comfy chair. Maybe you were keeping out of the way of the police while some of us were doing something real? Were you not at Balcombe either? No. I didn't think so. Too busy making stupid little Indian flags and posting how good you are. DtG |
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19 Jun 14 - 04:26 AM (#3634488) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 1 "Don't you DARE try to quote Russell Means to me, you silly, self-important, delusional, ignorant bitch. Stick with what you actually know, which is basically fuck all, Liz." Careful, Greg, your misogynistic side is showing, again.... I will damn well quote Russell Means whenever I so chose, and I did NOT 'quote' him at all in my earlier post, by the way, merely used his name and told you that Russell himself was in Facebook a LOT, because he understood the power that lies inside it. If you don't like that, tough...but that gives you NO right to call me a 'bitch'. Thanks all the same, and I make NO apology for standing up to your nastiness, your stalking of me, your constant misogynistic drivel.... From Dave (yes another of my fanclub) "I didn't see you at Barton Moss, Lizzie. You must be a lot less noticeable in real life than you are in your comfy chair. Maybe you were keeping out of the way of the police while some of us were doing something real? Were you not at Balcombe either? No. I didn't think so. Too busy making stupid little Indian flags and posting how good you are." No, Dave, you didn't, because to get either of those places from Devon costs a fortune, (I don't drive) which I do not have and because I am a Carer, caring for Nanny who is 100 years old this coming September....There's a photo of her on my FB page if you don't believe she exists.... HOWEVER, what you DID see, were you to have even looked, that is, is Vanessa carrying the Mohawk Warrior Unity Flag (there are MANY photos of it on the 'BIFF! Britain & Ireland Frack Free' page, above, scroll down and down and you'll find it in the photos section..... That flag was mine, sent to me by John, over in Pennsylvania, who is part of the Idle No More movement and Mohawk himself... The Idle No More movement (look it up) is watching every move being made over here on Fracking, as they are fighting like crazy to stop it over in the USA and Canada too... HOWEVER, I did to 12 hours of coach travel in the same day to meet with Chief Raoni and Chief Megaron in London the other day, which is a direct trip for me, not involving many changes of transport or stays overnight.... I was the one who corrected the French to English translations for those at Planete Amazone, in their letters to Prince Charles, Albert of Monaco and King Harold of Norway, the Pope also, and Sting, (the latter two NOT meeting Raoni, but the first three doing so last week), because I sit here helping many people around the world to raise awareness of what's happening to our planet.... Raoni and Megaron came out from The Amazon Rainforest to fight for their People's survival, for the survival of us all, Dave...I help them in EVERY way possible, via my Support Chief Raoni page and in helping the team at Planete Amazone too, over in Paris, whom I also got to meet last week in London.... I don't give a feck what you folks throw at me in here, for I learned long ago to Rise Above and get on with doing what I do... And Russell Means, would, like many other Native Americans, consider me to be an OK person, seeing that I loathe so much of what The Fecking White Man has done over the centuries, were he still alive to this day... I've encouraged many folks to buy the last book he ever wrote 'If You've Forgotten The Names of The Clouds, You've Lost Your Way' am FB friends with the man who co-wrote that with Russell and I keep Russell's words of wisdom alive on Raoni's page, on my own page too, because I respect that man hugely.... So, may I politely suggest that you, Greg, stick your head where the sun don't shine and, if you truly CARE about Russell, that you too get a FB page, as he had, and share his words out to others, because by heck, we need Russell back in this world right now! You can even order his book here, and yes, I've put the USA link in. Read it, for you sure have lost your way, if you ask me! http://www.amazon.com/Youve-Forgotten-Names-Clouds-Lost-ebook/dp/B007V91ENK Oh, and for those interested, here is a petition against the Infrastructure Bill which will remove our Ancient Laws of Trespass and allow this evil, oligarchic government to sell of ANY public land they so choose and, of course, to frack under YOUR home without even telling you, should their pals in The Fracking Mafia, so desire to do so. INFRACSTRUCTURE BILL PETITION |
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19 Jun 14 - 04:39 AM (#3634490) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 1 Oh, and Dave, just so's you know, there's a FB 'note' on my page entitled 'Of Chiefs & Children' read it, you might learn something, it's about the visit last week. As to the police, I phoned over half of the main police forces in this country during the recent anti-fracking protests, to raise awareness of what Greater Manchester Police and West Sussex Police were doing in their name, asking them to wake the feck up and join WITH The People for this is their fight too, their children's future too... Some were very receptive, angry at what the GMP, in particular were doing...tons of videos out there on Youtube about their behaviour, just google 'Fracking and Greater Manchester Police, Barton Moss' and you'll find them.. As to voting for a Party, I vote Green. The former leader of the Green Party was arrested at Balcombe last year... http://www.theguardian.com/environment/video/2013/aug/20/caroline-lucas-protest-fracking-arrest-balcombe-video ...her son was given the now 'normal' torture treatment by the British Police, where they press their thumbs deep into the recess behind our ears, causing intense pain. This manoeuvre has been banned by many self-defence sports, as it is the nearest point of entry to the brain...You will find many photos of the British Police doing this on innocent, legal, peaceful protestors on the BIFF page, above... Caroline, along with all those arrested with her, was found to be innocent and the judge threw these charges out of court... The POLICE are Wasting Police Time, they are also behaving like total thugs, some of them enjoying what they do....like the one who sat on a woman, hand-cuffing her, making her stand with only her chin supporting her on a fence, as her knees slowly buckled beneath her after the shock of his actions...His sexually gratified face, which, as a woman, filled me with horror, was sent all over the world and caused outrage, for it was obvious that this 'officer' was getting far more than he'd expected that day in the way of pleasing himself...It was the most revolting and disturbing image I've seen in a long while.....Again, you'll find it on the 'BIFF!' page, mentioned above... So, thanks for your words...and have a good day. |
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19 Jun 14 - 05:07 AM (#3634492) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Dave the Gnome No thanks, Lizzie. You accuse me of all sorts of things that are untrue. One of them is stalking you. As you know, because I have already told you, the only contact I have with you is on the Mudcat, I never have and have no intention of starting to follow you on Facebook or anywhere else for that matter. To summarise your actions on Fracking - You sent someone a flag - You posted on Facebook - You rang people - You signed partitions Wow. Personally, I do not feel the need to spend time letting people know how good and green I am. I would rather do something positive and practical. I still bear the scars of those actions, financial, emotional and physical. Do you imagine for one minute that all the people at Barton Moss and Balcombe turned up in their cars or were local or were somehow well to do? Many that I met were literally laying their lives on the line in more ways that one. They did not let it worry them that they had no cars or lived too far away or had other commitments. I consider myself lucky to have met and helped a few. How about you getting off your soapbox for a while and doing something worthwhile? DtG DtG |
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19 Jun 14 - 06:05 AM (#3634504) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Dave the Gnome You signed partitions Well, I guess you may have done that too but I meant petitions. I suppose they were signed online as well rather than in the real world? D. |
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19 Jun 14 - 08:29 AM (#3634543) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Greg F. Careful, Greg, your misogynistic side is showing, again.... Don't flatter yourself, bitch. I dislike loud-mouthed, idiotic, patronizing ignorant fools of whatever gender. And you still know fuck-all about Native Americans - How much time, exactly, have you spent in the U.S.? Oh yes that's right, you've been playing with your imaginary "friends" in cyberspace. So you must know all there is to know. And Russell Means, would, like many other Native Americans, consider me to be an OK person. No, Liz, Russell would have considered you a loud-mouthed dilettante slacker; he had no use for clowns like you. And by the way, that's MR. Means to you. Mohawk Warrior Unity Flag Jesus wept. You really are clueless, aren't you? You're involved with the wrong group, bitch - you want to join "Assholes No More". |
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19 Jun 14 - 12:00 PM (#3634605) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler Whatever squabbles are breaking out in this thread I have still not seen anything posted in favour of fracking! |
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19 Jun 14 - 12:06 PM (#3634608) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Musket Possibly because everybody seems to have come to a conclusion. Not that it is helpful, mind. I have read from both sides and still can't decide. The same types of people who joined us on the picket lines in 1984 when they tried shutting our pits are the ones demonstrating against er.. deep drilling for an energy source that could have an effect on the ground above it. As our American friends would say, go figure... |
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19 Jun 14 - 01:49 PM (#3634637) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: GUEST,Shimrod Ohhhh! I want a Mohawk Warrior Unity Flag! It's not fair! By the way ... uuummm ... what is a Mohawk Warrior Unity Flag? |
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19 Jun 14 - 02:04 PM (#3634640) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: GUEST,Shimrod Do Mohawk Warrior Unity Flags stop fracking? While you've all been squabbling with pooooorrrr, misunderstood, cruelly persecuted Lizzie, I've had a whizzo idea: Why don't we just get a load of Mohawk Warrior Unity Flags and stick them on poles all over Barton Moss? The bastards won't be able to get a frack in sideways (which, I believe, is the desired direction ... possibly?). |
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19 Jun 14 - 02:31 PM (#3634643) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Dave the Gnome I think we started mining when we knew no better and could not see, or did not care, that the resources that we remove from the earth are finite, Musket. We now live in a different world and generally speaking people are much more aware of the environmental impact of these actions. I believe there are documented issues with fracking, some quite serious, and while I fully understand we need power I believe that renewable resources should be the first priority. What is more, it is as much the attitude of the fracking companies and the politicians supporting them, that is winning them no friends. Basically, bullying tactics and greasing palms seems to be the order of the day. My experience at Barton Moss was as much against the GMP as it was against fracking. The tactics of the police were seriously lacking in any moral fibre. It was a real eye opener to understand that I could have been arrested on the flimsiest of grounds and incarcerated for up to 2 days simply for protesting. Sadly, whether fracking is a viable alternative or not, and I doubt it is, the powers supporting it have already alienated themselves to so many people that I can honestly see a peoples revolt if it progresses any further. Just my 2p. Cheers DtG |
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19 Jun 14 - 05:11 PM (#3634677) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Greg F. Do Mohawk Warrior Unity Flags stop fracking? Of course. Liz stuffs them down the bore hole. Perhaps another sort of hole would be more appropriate for her. |
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19 Jun 14 - 05:49 PM (#3634694) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler I have been to a "Keep East Lancashire Frack Free" meeting tonight. Someone had found out that planners are being told to regard fracking as a sustainable energy source. How does that work then? Is someone pumping more gas from somewhere else back into the ground? |
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20 Jun 14 - 04:48 AM (#3634826) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Musket Police tactics when dealing with protestors can be appalling, and as a football fan, I can empathise with protestors. That alone however doesn't add nor distract from the arguments over sustainability, ecological impact or implications for local residents. For many, the opportunity to oppose can overtake the opposition, and I saw a lot of that in 1984. I was at Orgreave. My finest memory? When we got fed up of the political agitators standing at the back shouting "charge!" and turned on them. The reports still show that as police brutality, when it was the poor buggers on strike who were frustrated by being pawns in a bigger game. We turned on the Socialist Workers' Party thugs, not the police. That was my apprenticeship into cause and effect. We were concerned about jobs, security and energy source, those at the back were concerned with removing a government. I see far more publicity over who has shares in fracking companies than whether fracking is the answer to a maiden's prayer. That rings alarm bells. |
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20 Jun 14 - 06:21 AM (#3634854) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Dave the Gnome It does with me too, Musket. Along with the pressure that is being brought to bear to introduce it. Makes me wonder who is going to benefit most but I am to long in the tooth to realise that it will not be us! Cheers DtG |
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21 Jun 14 - 01:53 AM (#3635223) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: GUEST,Musket Detract, not distract. I am wont to blame the iPad but it could be my lack of education after all. |
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21 Jun 14 - 01:44 PM (#3635402) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler I spent a few hours in Blackpool today meeting up with members of various other anti-fracking groups and raising awareness among passers-by. It was an unsolicited comment from a member of the public that suddenly made me realise where the jobs that are supposed to be generated by the act of fracking are going to be needed for. Security Guards. With between 2000 and 3300 wells estimated for Lancashire just thing of the policing that will be needed when the bomb threats start, and there are already rumours. It's not a job that I would take on. |
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22 Jun 14 - 04:11 AM (#3635509) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 1 FRACK FREE LANCASHIRE - Facbook Page And yes, the fracking companies are speaking out, here's one of The Bastards..and he's part of the reason Cameron is determined to change our Ancient Laws of Trespass.... Fracking Company Boss speaks out |
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22 Jun 14 - 05:34 AM (#3635522) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Musket If he's a bastard, are you a whore? Perhaps the thread title "Why won't the fracking companies speak?" has its answer in your post above. Not much point debating with ignorant people. If some can't address this issue in a civil manner, my advice to anyone is not to engage till they do. Most of the general public these days are too sophisticated to be impressed with mob rule. Most people can decide whether they are happy with politicians without agitators thinking they know what is good for them. I vote for politicians, I don't vote for scruffy herberts who tie themselves to trees and fetter public order for the benefit of the press posse. |
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22 Jun 14 - 05:50 AM (#3635526) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: GUEST,reader of IPCC reports "Whatever squabbles are breaking out in this thread I have still not seen anything posted in favour of fracking!" Here is one, but it is from IPCC, not me personally: "Shale gas can help the world to avoid dangerous climate change if it replaces coal in power stations..." |
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22 Jun 14 - 01:53 PM (#3635652) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Dave the Gnome Oh, well done Lizzie. Glad you now agree with me. From: Dave the Gnome - PM Date: 12 Jun 14 - 09:37 AM I think it is far from said and done. When the boss of a fracking company says he will pull out of the UK unless the law is changed something has seriously rattled his cage. Not sure why it has taken you 10 days to spot this but maybe you could not read the news from up chief whaasisnames arse? :D tG |
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23 Jun 14 - 07:48 AM (#3635968) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 1 Look on my FB page, Dave, from weeks/months back, but you need to press '2014, then 'highlights', then 'see all stories' to find it, due to FBs insane way of doing the pages these days... You'll find it there.... I've spoken to Cuadrilla about many things, phoned them up...they couldn't give a fuck, they really couldn't. I resurrected this story on my FB again just the other day, take a look, it's there..for those who may have missed it...and many did, sharing it out to others. I decided to bring it here too that same day. Sorry to disappoint you. Lord Browne, who advises the government on Energy, (who is a proven perjuror too, lying in court for over 2 weeks, over how he took money from BP, his former employers, to fund his gay lover and their life-style, then, admitting he was lying after the Daily Mail, who he'd taken to court, produced irrefutable evidence) owns around 30% of Cuadrilla... Frances Egan is the CEO of Cuadrilla... Do the math Join the dots We are literally facing 'The Battle Of Britain II' |
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23 Jun 14 - 07:50 AM (#3635969) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 1 From Musket:"If he's a bastard, are you a whore?" Well, I was using the term 'bastard' in the informal way of "An unpleasant or despicable person" to describe Frances Egan, who is exactly that, as he has no care for anyone in this country, no care about fracking under their homes, no care about changing our ancient laws of trespass...just a deeply arrogant bastard..... In what way are you using the term 'whore' towards me exactly? Are you asking if I have sex with endless men? If so, what has this to do with Fracking? Surely, that's FUCKING, isn't it? Last time I looked, this thread was about FRACKING, but my eyes are getting very old now, so perhaps I'm actually in a thread about FUCKING, and if so, I do apologize most profoundly..... Oh, and by the way, if the informal usage of the term 'bastard' should ring some bells within you, Musket, please, do feel free to use it, perhaps inserting the words 'I Am A Total' before writing it on your hat, your T shirt, or even a large tattoo across your chest, mayhap.... 'Bastard' - Definition from The Oxford English Dictionary Thank you and do have a nice day. |
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23 Jun 14 - 08:37 AM (#3635981) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Dave the Gnome Look on my FB page, Dave Do you never actually read anything anyone else says, Lizzie? Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Dave the Gnome - PM Date: 19 Jun 14 - 05:07 AM No thanks, Lizzie. You accuse me of all sorts of things that are untrue. One of them is stalking you. As you know, because I have already told you, the only contact I have with you is on the Mudcat, I never have and have no intention of starting to follow you on Facebook or anywhere else for that matter. It's like pissing in the wind... DtG |
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23 Jun 14 - 09:50 AM (#3636004) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: GUEST,Musket So the person appointed to run a business is lobbying in his company's interest and informing HMG of the ideal conditions for them to do so successfully. He is neither right nor wrong. He is putting forward the case for meeting medium term energy requirements through fracking. Others are putting forward the risks. Neither are bastards. Both are trying to inform. Which is a damned sight more than Lizzie Cornish's diatribe. People with genuine concerns must be rather disturbed by the association with rent a mob such people give them. I am convinced that this matter needs sober reflection, planned utilisation where possible and rolled out slowly whilst testing the predicted negative implications. That approach is perhaps the only way forward. There are enough beds in deserted areas to test concerns. It would be sad if we didn't exploit it through groundless fears and it is immoral to go hell bent for leather in the way this government are being portrayed as doing I see little evidence of those concerns. Public demonstration of not feeling it has been thought through properly is commendable. Fettering on the basis of not liking a particular government is irresponsible. |
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23 Jun 14 - 12:03 PM (#3636028) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 1 Have you actually spoken to Cuadrilla, Musket? Have you dealt with them in any way? Do you understand that Cuadrilla *themselves* are *inside* our government? Did you read what I said about Lord Browne?????? Wake UP! This government WILL change our Trespass Laws under The People stop them...It is deeply outrageous and corrupt in EVERY way and most certainly is NOT democratic! You stay all calm and bland and boring, call me a whore, (yeesh!!!!) call me whatever you feel like...but for fuck's sake, recognize the massive seriousness of this situation... Or, just go away and watch Mindless TV for the rest of your days and leave it to 'everyone else' to sort out on your behalf.... Don't forget the tattoo, whatever you do.... Thanks |
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23 Jun 14 - 12:44 PM (#3636039) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Greg F. This government WILL change our Trespass Laws On top of everything else, Liz has the gift of Second Sight! Must be something to do with the Mohawk Whatsis Flag. |
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23 Jun 14 - 01:16 PM (#3636047) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Musket How does one access mindless TV? Funnily enough, I did once design some shale shakers for a similar company. Thats when I had a real job though, rather than advise government departments. Which isn't a real job, despite those who think it is, and in any event I am free from the end of this week. So, I repeat; How does one access mindless TV? |
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23 Jun 14 - 03:43 PM (#3636102) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Dave the Gnome Just tune in to Mudcat Showcase with chief presenter Lizzie 'The Mouth' Cornish, Musket. Beats the hell out of Jeremy Kyle any day. :D tG |
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23 Jun 14 - 04:59 PM (#3636125) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: gnu Just came back to see what condition my condition is in. Started reading 'backwards' and found this... "It would be sad if we didn't exploit it through groundless fears..." Well, at least one of you hasn't done your research. Fracking kills. Look it up. Educate yourself. If yer on the internUt, you have no excuse for sticking your head in the sand. Seriously, go to my Facebook page Frack which has been on the net since last July 1 and spend two months reading the posts. It is NOT a discussion page; it a page of FACTS. NO discussion is allowed... it is only a presentation of FACTS. It is the real deal. Since this is Mudcat and not Facebook, I shall take the licence of discussion to say the following. Frack off gasholes. I want clean air and water. I don't want benzene and radioactive shit in my life or in the lives of future generations. Take your death and destruction and profits for big oil and shove em up your ass. THAT is a FACT. |
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23 Jun 14 - 05:57 PM (#3636136) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: GUEST,Musket Lots of other information portrayed as facts that contradict yours Gnu. That is why reasonable people debate. |
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23 Jun 14 - 08:26 PM (#3636164) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Jack Campin Chemicals used in fracking are risky hormone disruptors: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/06/140623103939.htm http://www.newswise.com/articles/hormone-disrupting-activity-of-fracking-chemicals-worse-than-initially-found |
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23 Jun 14 - 08:59 PM (#3636168) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Ed T Especially for folks driving gas guzzler cars, suvs and trucks. benzene |
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23 Jun 14 - 09:24 PM (#3636171) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Ed T air quality study "Stronger emission controls in North Carolina may have saved lives by reducing deaths from respiratory illness, according to an academic study published Monday. During the past few decades, the state has tightened its air quality standards through adherence to federal legislation such as the Clean Air Act and the state's 2002 Clean Smokestacks Act. The state's success in reducing air pollution may explain a substantial decline in deaths from the respiratory illnesses asthma and emphysema during corresponding periods, reported Duke University scientists in the International Journal of COPD on Monday. The release of the study comes as state lawmakers are considering legislation this week that eliminates some of the state's air-quality stations, part of the framework for measuring pollution across the state." Read more here: http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/06/23/3957644/duke-scientists-report-air-pollution.html#storylink=cpy |
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24 Jun 14 - 02:50 PM (#3636363) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: gnu "Lots of other information portrayed as facts that contradict yours Gnu." Utter bullshit. You obviously haven't read my 'facts' cited from hundreds of accredited and peer reviewed sources. At least go to You Tube and do some research before you spout such crap. |
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24 Jun 14 - 05:49 PM (#3636392) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: GUEST From Greg: "On top of everything else, Liz has the gift of Second Sight! Must be something to do with the Mohawk Whatsis Flag" What I actually SAID, although 'under' should have been 'unless': "This government WILL change our Trespass Laws under The People stop them" Seems you have the gift of Selective Quoting, Greg. It's been done to me so many times before that I'd have thought you'd have been able to think of something slightly more original. As to you disparaging comments about the Mohawk Flag, do you truly expect me to believe that you have respect for the Native Americans, after a comment like that? From Dave: "Just tune in to Mudcat Showcase with chief presenter Lizzie 'The Mouth' Cornish, Musket. Beats the hell out of Jeremy Kyle any day." If watching 'Jeremy Kyle' is what turns you on, Dave, then I am starting to understand why you come across as such a total prat in here. I had thought you were putting it on, but now, I can see clearly what the problem is. Thank you...and...have a nice night. |
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24 Jun 14 - 09:12 PM (#3636420) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Greg F. As to you[r] disparaging comments about the Mohawk Flag... Suggest you do a bit of research on this purported "Mohawk Warrior Flag" & then get back to me. Liz doesn't have a clue about it. |
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25 Jun 14 - 01:20 AM (#3636444) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: GUEST,Musket What makes it a fact just because it is on YouTube Gnu? I am always wary of zealous approaches such as the one you have put forward as you leave no room for compromise. When I read the exact opposite, what do I do? Dismiss it on the say so of an overgrown deer from cyberspace? |
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25 Jun 14 - 05:07 AM (#3636481) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 1 'Guest' above was me... The Mohawk Warrior Unity Flag.......... There will be THOUSANDS of Wells across the UK, THOUSANDS... Just sayin'.... For anyone remotely interested in Fracking.... |
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25 Jun 14 - 05:13 AM (#3636483) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Dave the Gnome I am starting to understand why you come across as such a total prat in here. Lizzie, that is the nicest thing you have ever said to me. To be called a prat by such an idiot as yourself restores my faith in myself :-) DtG |
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25 Jun 14 - 07:21 AM (#3636493) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Musket Ten thousand holes in Blackburn Lancashire.... Give or take a few miles |
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25 Jun 14 - 03:21 PM (#3636625) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Dave the Gnome Hey, don't dis the gnu, Msuket! Just because he is a moose it doesn't mean he is wrong. He's one of the gdoo gyus. DtG |
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25 Jun 14 - 03:40 PM (#3636634) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Ed T LOL, DTG. |
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26 Jun 14 - 04:42 AM (#3636733) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: GUEST,Shimrod Dear Lizzie, Here's a thought. Whoever discovered the trespass law, and made it widely known, came up with an effective anti-fracking tactic; so effective, in fact, that the government are even trying to change the trespass law. On the other hand, waving Mohawk flags around and shrilly haranguing us are almost certainly NOT effective tactics. So I challenge you, Lizzie, put your your emotions and your f***ing Mohawk f***ing flags in a sack and bury them somewhere, dig up the brain that you've got buried in a ceramic jar somewhere else, and come up with an anti-fracking tactic as effective as the trespass law ... come up with several if you like! |
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26 Jun 14 - 04:46 AM (#3636735) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Musket I'm not dissing the gnu. I'm dissing his assertion that grass gets snow on it every year and lichen tastes better in Winnipeg than Alberta because he says so. |
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26 Jun 14 - 05:51 AM (#3636741) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler The estimate that I saw was 2000-3300 well sites for Lancashire, multiple bore holes for each site. The more that I examine the geology the more unlikely it seems that they will be able to sink wells safely as there are many many faults that are known about, never mind the hidden ones. They drilled through one fault and did not even know about it until the earth tremor crushed their borehole. Every fault is a potential leakage point for the chemicals used to reach the aquifers. |
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26 Jun 14 - 07:11 AM (#3636764) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Ed T ""Most lichen are likable, but not exactly consumer friendly. What the lichen all share is acid and as such require proper preparation if they are to be eaten because unprepared and uncooked they will painfully attack your digestive track. Unprepared lichen taste like aspirin. That should motivate you to prepare it correctly. Never eat unprepared and raw lichen unless your life truly depends upon it. It probably will not kill you but you will wish it had."" Everything you need to know about lichen: What's not to Lichen? |
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26 Jun 14 - 10:31 AM (#3636814) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Dave the Gnome What the lichen all share is acid Gnu on acid? How good is that :-) DtG |
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03 Jul 14 - 02:45 AM (#3638526) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 1 Please, please watch, because this WILL happen in over 60% of our beloved, beautiful country! If HITLER were doing this, we'd be at WAR by now!!! The Convoy arrives in West Newton, Yorkshire and even one of the policeman is standing there in shock, not believing what he's just seen, admitting he knows NOTHING about Fracking, desperately trying to say he's just doing his job, as Ian R. Crane explains to him exactly what he is being a part of..... The Decimation of Yorkshire has begun..... This will shock you... |
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03 Jul 14 - 03:30 PM (#3638754) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: GUEST Dude making the video is a prick. That policeman was doing his job. |
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04 Jul 14 - 04:49 AM (#3638890) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Musket I watch the Yorkshire one with interest. My aga uses a shed load of gas.... |
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04 Jul 14 - 04:53 PM (#3639128) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: GUEST,Lizzie Cornish 1 Well, to both posts above, soon, they may well be fracking under your homes, so you can then watch them gather in the gas yourself, whilst also watching your house prices plummet and breathe in the rising methane, as the water in your taps starts to light up your house.. Have a good evening... |
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04 Jul 14 - 05:50 PM (#3639148) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Ed T ""...as the water in your taps starts to light up your house...."" ""last time i did peyote, i saw snakes and shit.""-Cheech and Chong |
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04 Jul 14 - 06:03 PM (#3639151) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Greg F. Atta girl,Liz, tell it like you think it is. |
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05 Jul 14 - 02:45 AM (#3639219) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: GUEST,Musket Saves me having to buy a steamer attachment for baking French loaves. Win. Win. |
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13 Jun 17 - 06:11 AM (#3860606) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Iains I wonder if fracking will ever occur on any economic scale in the UK? With Brent crude trading at approx 48$/bbl, the economic case for fracking is dubious. The structural complexity of many potential shale bodies, coupled with the poor infrastructure in many area to support the necessary vehicle movements further restrict the growth of the industry. Also public opposition is strong - though how much is fact driven rather than hysteria is a moot point. We were quite happy to develop a coal industry that killed thousands, dug holes on Parys mountain since pre Roman times for copper and ransacked numerous other areas for mineral wealth. We even allowed prospecting in National Parks back in the 70's. Now we have the chance to exploit another energy source in the most tightly regulated environment ever, utilising a basic technology a hundred years old and the antis are hugging trees everywhich where. There has yet to be a rational debate to explain the whys and wherefores. http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/fracking-environment-ireland-theresa-may-a7771956.html |
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23 Oct 18 - 12:27 PM (#3957987) Subject: RE: BS: Why won't the fracking companies speak? From: Iains An interesting study relevant to the fracking controversy. I do not think most people realise that penetrating any shale body that has the slightest organic content will result in the release of limited amounts of methane. Any conductive faults through a shale body likewise provide a pathway for the escape of methane. Most also do not realise that coal fired power stations release far more radiation that nuclear power stations. This is even more surprising when it is realised that coal has an extremely low gamma signature compared to most other rocks(apart from rocksalt- sodium not potassium) https://phys.org/news/2018-05-three-year-relationship-methane-groundwater-proximity.html |