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22 Aug 14 - 07:21 PM (#3653149) Subject: BS: The modern apology From: GUEST,Rahere Having listened to a football manager trying to wriggle his way out of a mess he got himself into, I notice the following: 1. The use of the word "Inappropriate" meaning "I don't accept what you say" 2. The use of the word "Unacceptable" meaning "Oops": if it's unacceptable, then how can you apologise? Why do we accept these buzzwords, designed to weaken and diminish the expression of offense and apology? Is it a serious apology when they're used? |
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22 Aug 14 - 09:14 PM (#3653154) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: Mrrzy The old-time fake apology: I'm sorry you got upset. |
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22 Aug 14 - 10:32 PM (#3653158) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: Janie Don't know about the first post - can't quite understand the point being made. The old time fake apology you reference, Mrrzy, is one I have a different take on. "I'm sorry you got upset" is not a fake apology. It is not an apology at all, and not intended to be. It is an expression of regret. If I say something mean or demeaning to another person with the intention of hurting or demeaning them, I owe an apology. If I disagree with another person and express that disagreement appropriately, I do not owe an apology should they be offended that I disagree. I may still regret that they operate from a place or paradigm that results in them feeling offended. But I am not responsible for that place or paradigm that they inhabit and which leads them to feel offended. That is their responsibility. Not mine. I don't owe them an apology. I can still regret they are offended. |
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23 Aug 14 - 02:24 AM (#3653171) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: Musket Reminds me of the minister who resigned over his so called special advisor a couple of years ago. His "apology" speech to the house included the phrase "mistakes were made." Obviously didn't have the balls to say he made them and tried, rather disgracefully by those three words to cast doubt on the judgement of his permanent secretary and staff. Regarding football managers, the Colemanballs column could never have survived as long without them. |
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23 Aug 14 - 02:46 AM (#3653174) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: Dave Hanson Famous one from Monty Python at Drury Lane concert for Amnesty International, after a bad taste sketch a young lady announces " we would like to apologise for the last sketch, we're very sorry, were honestly so fucking sorry " Dave H |
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23 Aug 14 - 08:02 AM (#3653222) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: Tiger How about "Mistakes were made." Haven't heard that one lately. |
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23 Aug 14 - 08:30 AM (#3653228) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: Musket Lately? I posted it three hours ago... |
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23 Aug 14 - 08:43 AM (#3653236) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link I though this might be about dawkins. he had tweeted his perpective that a mother expecting a downs baby, ought to abort and try again. after a storm of protest an apology ...sort of....followed. |
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23 Aug 14 - 11:37 AM (#3653276) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: Sandra in Sydney over the past week our media has been full of the "apology" one of our politicians, the Federal Treasurer Joe Hockey made for his latest gaffe that poor people "don't have cars or don't drive very far". Our current government is very right wing & members continually show they are out of touch with ordinary people, especially in this Treasurer's recent Budget which savagely hits the disadvantaged. JOE Hockey has apologised in a 2GB interview for the words he used saying that the poorest in Australia "don't have cars or don't drive very far". The Federal Treasurer spoke with Ben Fordham earlier about the comments, saying "I am really, genuinely sorry that there is any suggestion, any suggestion at all, that I or the government does not care for the most disadvantaged," Mr Hockey said. "I'm sorry about that interpretation and I'm sorry about the words. And why? Because all of my life, as everyone who knows me knows, all of my life I have fought for and tried to help the most disadvantaged people in the community. "And for there to be some suggestion that I have evil in my heart when it comes to the most disadvantaged people in the community is upsetting. "But it's more upsetting for those people in the community, so I want to make it perfectly clear to the community that if there is any suggestion that I don't care about you or I have evil intent toward you, I want to say that couldn't be further from the truth and I'm sorry for the hurt." |
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23 Aug 14 - 11:46 AM (#3653278) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: GUEST,# ". . . so I want to make it perfectly clear to the community that if there is any suggestion that I don't care about you or I have evil intent toward you . . ." Well, thanks so much Mr Hockey. When I waved my middle finger at you it was meant to show you're number one with me. |
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23 Aug 14 - 12:14 PM (#3653288) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: Q (Frank Staplin) inappropriate- have seen this one many times over the years, often from a government spokesman. |
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23 Aug 14 - 02:40 PM (#3653328) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: GUEST,Rahere Looks like the thread's headed where I thought it might, so another question, then: can we discover the most ridiculous form of non-apology? |
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24 Aug 14 - 02:25 AM (#3653424) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: Ebbie "I'm sorry if you took offense because I didn't say what you thought I said, and if you were listening you would have known that." Would that do? :) |
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24 Aug 14 - 02:44 AM (#3653428) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: Musket My heart bleeds. Purple piss |
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24 Aug 14 - 01:27 PM (#3653555) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: GUEST,Stim Apologies are generally "fake" in a sense, because they are intended to change the consequences of a statement or action from negative to positive, or at least neutral, rather than to bring out the truth. The apology and it's acceptance generally have less to do with what is right or wrong and more to do with simply pulling things back together and continuing to cooperate after a breach. Generally, it is preferable to all parties to do this rather than risk breaking up the game. There are some people who, in the name of truth or whatever, dig in their heels and refuse to accept the apology and move on, and they are often surprised when they, rather than the transgressor, are the ones that get tossed out. Generally,right or wrong, people pull together to keep the game going. |
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24 Aug 14 - 02:16 PM (#3653568) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: GUEST,JTS I am sorry that Mr. Dawkins' statements bother you pete. If a cabinet minister is saying "mistakes were made" is a resignation speech, isn't he taking responsibility for those mistakes by resigning? Isn't he responsabile for his portfolio? Doesn't he sort out advice from his underlings and make sure the people under him are doing their jobs properly? |
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24 Aug 14 - 03:41 PM (#3653599) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: Bill D "If I said anything I'm sorry for, I'm glad of it." (remembered from long ago) ------------------------- Best apology I ever read about: (it may even be true) A biology professor asked a young woman to read aloud from a textbook about conception, pregnancy, etc. Each time she came to "pregnant" she substituted 'unwell'. After several of these, he stopped her and said, "what was that?" She replied,"She was 'expecting'." He sighed and said: "The word, Miss Jones, is pregnant..p-r-e-g-n-a-n-t. Your mother was pregnant. your grandmother was pregnant, and by the grace of God & the help of some young man, you too will some day be pregnant." Miss Jones gasped and ran out of the room in tears. The professor was called into the Dean's office and told that 'complaints were made', and the apologies must be made. Next day, the professor walked into the class and said: "Yesterday I was careless with a remark I made. I do apologize & withdraw my remark. I do NOT believe Miss Jones will ever be pregnant." |
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25 Aug 14 - 03:32 AM (#3653758) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: Musket Regarding the cabinet minister, (Liam Fox) the answer is that he didn't resign due to anything or anyone from his department. He was told to resign by The PM after his friend Adam Werrity, with his knowledge, was calling himself a special advisor and gaining access to him for commercial advantage to potential contractors. The mistakes were all his. By saying "mistakes were made" he tried to third party distance himself from what was potentially a criminal situation. Resigning wasn't an apology. He refused to shift for over two weeks after it came to light. His permanent staff gave evidence at the commons select committee to say he overruled them. No. "Mistakes were made" means he made them. If a poor forced apology is a second insult then Fox is the master of the subject of this thread. |
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25 Aug 14 - 04:19 AM (#3653767) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: BobL "I bow to your superior ignorance" - Spike Milligan |
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25 Aug 14 - 09:04 AM (#3653828) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link. your apology is accepted, jts ! best, pete. |
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25 Aug 14 - 11:29 AM (#3653868) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: Donuel Janie "I'm sorry you are an ignorant ass hole." no not you Janie-you're great, but the point Mrrzy made is the most typical fake apology there is. If this upsets you, I'm sorry you feel that way. Iraq war lies were uniformly the kind where policy mistakes were never our mistakes. " It was not our mistake, it was not me, it was the intelligence we were given at the time" Meanwhile the intelligence was manufactured by Cheney's special office set up inside the CIA , NSA and DIA. |
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25 Aug 14 - 02:23 PM (#3653941) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: Silas Dennis Skinner in the House of common s said "Half of the opposition party are criminals" When told to with draw that remark by the speaker he said "I apologise,half of the oppositition party are NOT criminals" Brilliant mind that bloke. |
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25 Aug 14 - 02:45 PM (#3653952) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: GUEST,Stim That's an old, old joke, Silas. Given that, a joke that persists because half of any political party are probably criminals. |
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25 Aug 14 - 05:23 PM (#3654008) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: GUEST,Silas It's not a joke - it's what he said. |
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25 Aug 14 - 10:13 PM (#3654063) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: Sandra in Sydney Best Dennis Skinner quotes thanks for mentioning him, Silas - I don;t recall hearing about him in the past & I've enjoyed what I found sandra |
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26 Aug 14 - 02:51 AM (#3654124) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: Silas If you enjoyed them you should also look up the late tony banks mp - another one of my heros. |
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26 Aug 14 - 08:14 AM (#3654210) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: GUEST,# Tony Banks quotes. |
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26 Aug 14 - 01:10 PM (#3654306) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: akenaton Funny and witty, but getting rid of the buggers is a serious business. |
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26 Aug 14 - 01:27 PM (#3654310) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: GUEST,# LOL |
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27 Aug 14 - 10:07 PM (#3654323) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: Sandra in Sydney brilliant! |
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28 Aug 14 - 03:56 AM (#3654366) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: Sandra in Sydney Political Apology Generator With an eye on the horizon for the gaffes and Cliveisms to come, it only seems fair to create an Apology Generator that can spit out apologies, retractions, and sincere statements of regret on cue, writes Josh Aitken. Let's face it. If you want to be a politician in these modern, ice-bucket challenge drenched times, you have to be good at apologising. With the second-by-second churn of the 24-hour news cycle and every word and even your metadata now recorded, there's no escaping the scrutiny, scandal or even a storm in a recyclable, double insulated takeaway coffee cup. In between guaranteed colossal bureaucratic stuff ups and self-detonating ministerial outbursts on cheery subjects like abortion, race, gender, sexuality and budget-caused skin cancer, there's barely enough time to announce yet another white paper, military titles border security emergency or global travel junket. read on - the story is about Australian politicians but you can easily substitute the names of your favourite politicians/parties. Of course, if you want to read up on our particular (peculiar?) brand of loony politicians, you can just google their names! Clive Palmer - a self-made billioniare who decided to make his own political party the Palmer United Party aka PUP, scatters life-size dinosaurs models around the place, & plans to build a replica of the Titanic (ie. a gift to political cartoonists) |
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28 Aug 14 - 04:42 AM (#3654384) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: GUEST,Rahere Never forget Tony and Dennis were working with Tony Benn. His Five Questions are one of the two pieces of modern aphorism which deserve to survive into eternity. |
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28 Aug 14 - 10:23 PM (#3654794) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: olddude I am very sorry that my wit and knowledge is beyond your ability to comprehend the meaning |
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29 Aug 14 - 03:35 AM (#3654826) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: JennieG Sometimes an apology after wrongdoing is more about "I'm sorry I was caught doing wrong" than "I'm sorry for my wrong actions". They aren't ~quite~ the same. |
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29 Aug 14 - 04:42 AM (#3654843) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: GUEST,Rahere To some extent I believe in action being the real apology: you do someone wrong, you set it right as far as possible. You change, you learn. Maybe a sorry lubricates the initial harm, but it's far more an expression of sorrow, lamentation, or at least should be. Which is why I raised the thread, oh, and for fun. Perhaps there's a song or two to be had from this? |
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29 Aug 14 - 09:49 AM (#3654904) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link Elton john....sorry, seems to be the hardest word ! |
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30 Aug 14 - 02:53 AM (#3655128) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: Sandra in Sydney sorry is such a basic word when interacting with others - someone bumps into us/treads on our foot & we automatically say 'sorry", then metaphorically hit ourselves for once again taking the blame when the other person caused the problem. sandra |
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30 Aug 14 - 03:03 AM (#3655133) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: Musket Sandra. Bang on! I get angry with myself for automatically using the word "sorry" as a reflex reaction to being barged out of the way! |
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31 Aug 14 - 09:02 AM (#3655516) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: Stilly River Sage More annoying than the "fake apology" is the call for "fair treatment" from someone who conspicuously and consistently throws the first punch then stands back to watch the chaos. Individuals who start threads here demanding justice after those threads are closed or posts deleted, who carefully worded their missives with hot-button phrases or chose topics calculated to bring out the haters and to gang up on easy marks. The old Classic Troll Sam/Richie/Blues/Your-guest-name-here (who returns every August), and our newer Toxic Troll Songwronger have nothing better to do than start threads to get up people's noses. The activity is simple: start a socially or politically noxious thread, then watch for the responses protesting the toxicity of the first post. If it begins to slow down, they come back to give it a nudge. A time someone they really dislike responds, they feel entitled to jump all over that party, a self-appointed carte blanche unique to trolls. Some of them will stalk people from thread to thread doing this, but manage to stay under the radar unless they decide to stalk a moderator. Here is one real mea culpa in this thread: I owe Bobert a huge apology for not catching on sooner to the stalker who tormented him when he was most active here for the last few years. Bobert has decided to take the moral high ground and exit most of the conversations here at Mudcat, and I miss his witty presence. The man trolling Bobert isn't under the radar any more. People who get their pleasure from fighting with others need professional help. Sociopaths are a minor part of the traffic here at Mudcat, but they cause a major headache for those who have the misfortune to tangle with them and they drive away our legitimate music audience. BS threads are meant for general non-music discussion, not for the tabloid exploits calculated ONLY to stir up trouble. Trolls, we are sorry your feelings are so easily hurt when your mischief is moderated off the page. You need to find someplace else to play. Instead of dragging the offal of the world into a blues and folk site, go post your remarks under the articles on your home town yellow rags. You'll find like-minded haters there. I have got a little list . . . - a very short list - some of you who behave badly regularly may wonder if this is about you. It isn't, though we wish you would stop the fighting. Some of you smell blood in the water when one of our self-appointed victims takes to the boards - ignore those posts. See if you can play nicely from now on. The real trolls know who they are. |
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31 Aug 14 - 11:52 AM (#3655554) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: GUEST,Rahere Watch it, SRS, you just had a go at squeezebox players, "piano organists" are on the original list! It must be said that when I started this thread I was somewhat in trepidation about the charge of provocation, particularly coming back in after a bit to point it on a useful course. |
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31 Aug 14 - 12:08 PM (#3655560) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: Stilly River Sage There are many versions of "I've got a little list." Most of the new ones add in current items as well as those that Gilbert and Sullivan felt were targets. I think it also takes a swipe at banjos. |
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31 Aug 14 - 01:37 PM (#3655591) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: Musket Bodhrans. I have a permanent list as well as a this week list. Guess which they are on? |
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31 Aug 14 - 02:48 PM (#3655612) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: akenaton Stilly, I agree about the difficulties of moderation, but how do we determine what is a " socially or politically noxious thread"? Surely that depends on the point of view of the poster or the reader. I had a thread deleted which was on a very important issue to UK members, it consisted of a link and my views on that link....this should have led to a debate on society and the attitudes which contributed to the heinous crimes committed. The thread was deleted and I am not complaining, I realise that the mods rule and that is as it should be, but a little clarification would be helpful. |
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31 Aug 14 - 04:45 PM (#3655653) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: Stilly River Sage Ake, there is a difference between "important to" and "of prurient interest to." Mudcat isn't here to help people sort out which faux-news site is telling the real truth about various sex scandals and which racial immigrant minority population or underclass is the bane of the lives of some posters. The resulting fights are initiated and stage-managed by trolls. Mudcat is not the appropriate source for news or referrals for victims of any of the crimes people want to fight about. Unless one member breaks a banjo over the head of another member, in which case, you can all pile on. |
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31 Aug 14 - 05:18 PM (#3655660) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: akenaton Thanks SRS, I understand your point, but taken to its logical conclusion the forum becomes the creature of the moderators. This is not a criticism of you personally, but an observation. If we are to have a BS section, deletion of complete threads, or subjects of threads should be done sparingly. Personal abuse kills debate and should be severely dealt with. |
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31 Aug 14 - 05:30 PM (#3655662) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: Stilly River Sage Nobody said to take it to that conclusion. The Mudcat forum, in all of its aspects, is the creature of Max Spiegel. |
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31 Aug 14 - 07:45 PM (#3655682) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: GUEST,Rahere I think what SRS is pointing to is that Max and the Mods (now why didn't anyone name a band that in the 50s?) offer a wide ship. But a ship has to have gunwales or it sinks, and sometimes if something goes overboard it gets cut adrift. Worse yet would be if people had to walk the plank, me hearties. The question is where are the gunwales: if you suck it and see, be prepared to suffer your deep philosophy cast into the ether. You know where the boundaries lie, and you know where yours are: don't try to force the Cat into your corset. It would be impossible in any case to define exactly where the boundaries are, because they reflect social norms which differ from place to place and from time to time. Taking it to "a logical conclusion" is only valid if your logic is that of the extremist: if so, then consider that the rest of us may not be of the same mindset and would not worry if you saw the ship depart in the distance while you learn to swim alone. If you want to have your own freefire site, set up your own blog somewhere and live with the consequences. One of the reasons for a BS section is because as performers, we deal in forms of social engineering, and that needs a wider framework than the purely musical section specialising in the debate on the exact spacing of the bars in that blasted parrot's cage. This meme is a case in point, to get us thinking about what the alternative stances in interpersonal relationships really mean, by looking at the covert agendas in an ostensibly subordinating apology. Social engineering always involves such questions, and I think it has been an interesting journey, which clearly hasn't finished yet. Now, in the case of the meme you put up, maybe a case could be made for debating it, but in a positive way: you started of in a very negative mode, and it was likely to get worse. I replied quite early on with a hint it was on a one-way course to the great moderators dustbin in the sky, and if I could see it why couldn't you? Now it's rather unlikely to ever happen, because as was said aat the time, there's track record. There are thingsI could expound at length on but don't, because my knowledge is so specific and in depth it doesn't communicate anything to the average reader other than that I know so much about so little it's strange to the point of insanity, the Mad Professor syndrome. It's not "appropriate" for me to discuss those matters, in the sense that it is contextually aberrant. That also probably applies to your opinions on social integration or otherwise: it transcends the norms here, so you'd do better discussing it with the likes of UKIP. |
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01 Sep 14 - 03:40 AM (#3655744) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: akenaton In a nutshell Rahere, you are insinuating that I am a racist. Well you are quite wrong, as I marched, protested and was injured during the Black civil rights protests in the sixties. The point I was making, is that people who refuse to recognise criminality or harmful behaviour simply because it occurs within a minority, are serving the interests of no one, especially in this case when young children are exposed to this sort of abuse. The facts are all available, yet the law has not taken its course. Your jibe about UKIP has been noted and does you no credit. I am a member of the Scottish National Party. My views on society are purely personal. |
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01 Sep 14 - 07:58 AM (#3655787) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: Stilly River Sage The insistence on creating threads or directing them in prurient directions in order to stage-manage arguments (which is the ONLY reasons these topics are routinely introduced) is troll behavior. You may not be or consider yourself a troll, Ake, but your unwillingness to let go of certain topics makes you extremely predictable as far as the baiting of the Mudcat membership goes. Just as the sun rises in the east, Ake and others will respond to these keywords in an argument. . . is probably what goes through the mind of a troll. We all have what we feel is a position we consider moral high ground. You are routinely accused of bigotry and homophobia when you start preaching from your "purely personal" moral heights. Rise above letting the trolls ride your coattails. Bite your tongue (figuratively speaking) and don't enter those conversations that people SHOULD apologize for. Then you don't need to worry about offering a real or a fake "I'm sorry you were offended" apology. |
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01 Sep 14 - 01:17 PM (#3655878) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: akenaton Nicely put Maggie....:0) |
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03 Sep 14 - 06:13 AM (#3656399) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: Sandra in Sydney another local politician is forced to apologise, then an hour later tells a journalist the apology was a "political farce" leading the powers that be to doubt the sincerity of his apology. we are living in interesting times sandra |
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03 Sep 14 - 03:54 PM (#3656647) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link I suppose there might be some politicians with integrity.....somewhere! |
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03 Sep 14 - 08:20 PM (#3656743) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: PHJim Crack Smoking Toronto Mayor Rob Ford's Apology Doug Ford's Fake Apology "I'm sorry you feel that I've..." is NOT an apology. |
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04 Sep 14 - 05:20 AM (#3656848) Subject: RE: BS: The modern fake apology From: Musket Marching for equality? Some people can get lost in their own city... |