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17 Sep 14 - 01:21 AM (#3661005) Subject: Portingale From: GUEST A recent post in one of the "Over the Hills and Far Away" threads referred to the word "Portingale" sometimes being heard sung in the chorus instead of "Portugal". Ditto in the song "Fathom the Bowl". Any one ever come across this from a collected source, oral or printed? |
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17 Sep 14 - 02:03 AM (#3661013) Subject: RE: Portingale From: GUEST,Ed Child 80: Old Robin of Portingale |
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17 Sep 14 - 03:06 AM (#3661020) Subject: RE: Portingale From: GUEST Guest Ed, I am aware of Old Robin, but not really relevent to my interest. But thanks anyway. I'm more interested in the use of Portingale (presumably some sort of old English name for Portugal) in more modern(ish) times, rather than Portugal in fairly commonly known folk songs. Would this be from a traditional source, or just some revivalist singer's bit of affectation? |
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17 Sep 14 - 03:23 AM (#3661024) Subject: RE: Portingale From: MartinRyan Curiously, the Irish word for Portugal is "Poirtingéil", pronounced roughly as I presume your "Portingale" is. It's a bit complicated by inflection depending on grammatical case and use of the definite article - but it certainly sounds very similar. I don't recall ever hearing/seeing it in English usage. Regards |
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17 Sep 14 - 08:05 AM (#3661149) Subject: RE: Portingale From: GUEST Now that is interesting, Martin, and could explain its usage in these songs, though to my knowldge I can't recall hearing versions of either of these songs from Irish sources, in either the English or the Irish language, but please correct me if I'm mistaken. Off to Google "Portugal" in Welsh, Cornish etc. to see if there is a similar connection.... Thanks Martin. |
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17 Sep 14 - 08:32 AM (#3661157) Subject: RE: Portingale From: GUEST Portugal, in Cornish, is Portyngal. |
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17 Sep 14 - 10:02 AM (#3661198) Subject: RE: Portingale (word for Portugal?) From: MGM·Lion I note the thread heading has been expanded to "Portingale (word for Portugal?)", as above. Seeking Portingale on Wikipedia brings up "Portugal (redirected from Portingale"; which would appear to confirm that the answer to the question is Yes. ≈M≈ |
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17 Sep 14 - 12:28 PM (#3661251) Subject: RE: Portingale (word for Portugal?) From: GUEST,# Click here Worth a read. |
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17 Sep 14 - 02:17 PM (#3661278) Subject: RE: Portingale (word for Portugal?) From: MartinRyan Some interesting background in this item from a Portuguese/American journal: Click here Given the timelines, my guess is that the older English "Portingale" was imported into Ireland, absorbed into the Irish language and "froze" there when "Portuguese" appeared in modern English. Regards |
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19 Sep 14 - 03:39 AM (#3661717) Subject: RE: Portingale (word for Portugal?) From: GUEST,Original Poster Interesting reading. Thank you Martin and Guest#. It would seem then that the term was gradually replaced by Portugal from the C16th onwards, at least in England, and appearing in print only rarely. Still wondering whether the usage of Portingale (or Poirtingéil/Portyngal) in the songs mentioned appears in any C19th or C20th collected versions of these songs (or indeed in any other songs). Did it survive for longer perhaps in regional vernacular (other than in Ireland and Cornwall)? Just curious.... |
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20 Sep 14 - 11:45 AM (#3662161) Subject: RE: Portingale (word for Portugal?) From: GUEST,John Moulden Eddie Butcher in the song, Anne Jane Thronton, rendered Portugal as Portingale. For more on this see my article on the song and its historical background in Irish Folk Music Studies (the last number published). |