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25 Nov 99 - 12:37 PM (#140681) Subject: Tom of Bedlam From: honestfrankie@hotmail.com Hello folks, I'm trying to get some background to the bizarre story of Tom of Bedlam. I've heard something about drinking water from the other side of the lake across from a tanning operation that caused poisoning and hallucinations. Anyone have more on this? Related threads:Tom O' Bedlam's SongInfo Req: Tom of Bedlam |
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25 Nov 99 - 12:47 PM (#140684) Subject: RE: Tom of Bedlam From: Dave Swan Doug Olsen will have information on this for you. If he doesn't see this before then, I'll ask him about it when I see him Sunday. I bet you'll get a dozen good answers in the meantime. Stay tuned. Cheers, Dave |
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25 Nov 99 - 05:02 PM (#140725) Subject: RE: Tom of Bedlam From: Liz the Squeak Useless information for the day: The original Bedlam (or Bethlehem) Hospital is now the Imperial War Museum - surely a case of the lunatics taking over the asylum.... LTS |
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26 Nov 99 - 12:06 PM (#140948) Subject: RE: Tom of Bedlam From: GeorgeH This is getting to be a habit . . Are you SURE of that, Liz?? My recollection is that the Imperial War Museum is on the site of the Bethlehem Hospital. My further recollection is that its buildings are not old enough to be the original - although there might be some old parts squirrelled away somewhere. I also seem to recall (from another newsgroup thread, so this could also be totally wrong) that at some point the hospital moved from north of the Thames to the South (for those who are even less familiar with London than I am, the Imperial War Museum is south of the Thames. Apart from its Cambridgeshire branch, which is at Duxford, just down the road from me). G. |
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26 Nov 99 - 12:16 PM (#140950) Subject: RE: Tom of Bedlam From: Penny S. And isn't there some connection with the Maudsley (not to be confused with the Maudlin)? Penny |
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26 Nov 99 - 12:33 PM (#140957) Subject: RE: Tom of Bedlam From: Bruce O. The Opie's in 'The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes' give 1675 as the date of the move of Old Bethlem Hospital from Bishops Gate Without' to Moorfields (a little west of Bishop's Gate Street Without). This is considerably later than the song "Tom O'Bedlam". On a map of 1731 we find Moorfields with the alternative label N. Bethlem. The Opie's statement is in notes to "As I was walking o'er little Moorfields", closely related to "Tom-Tell Truth". They note "A shoulder of mutton jumped over from France", but say nothing about how Bedlam jumped over the Thames. When did that happen?
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26 Nov 99 - 12:56 PM (#140961) Subject: RE: Tom of Bedlam From: honestfrankie Thanks to all who contributed information about the song "Tom of Bedlam". What a bunch of all-knowing folkies! Does anyone know whether this song would be old enough to be called medieval? Frankie |
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26 Nov 99 - 12:58 PM (#140963) Subject: RE: Tom of Bedlam From: Read the thread Tom O'Bedlam's Song. |
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26 Nov 99 - 01:22 PM (#140971) Subject: RE: Tom of Bedlam From: Bruce O. Documentation my sources of the facts, pointing to the origin of the song in 1618, is given, with the early copy of the song, in Scarce Songs 2 at www.erols.com/olsonw |
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26 Nov 99 - 06:44 PM (#141099) Subject: RE: Tom of Bedlam From: Bruce O. Penny, about 300 songs, mostly rare, (some from manuscripts and apparently never printed) about 800 ABCs, an index of 16th and 17th century broadside ballads, index of 17th and 18th century Scots tunes, index of Irish tunes to c 1865, index of country dance tunes to about 1800, and some other stuff. The click above started working for me after about 3 PM today (its now 6:40 PM here). If it doesn't for you, try direct to www.erols.com/olsonw |
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26 Nov 99 - 10:08 PM (#141155) Subject: RE: Tom of Bedlam From: Liz the Squeak George, I didn't say that it took over Bedlam directly, I just said that Bedlam is now the IWM, and the word site dropped out of sight somewhere... I have a head full of crap, some of it just pops out wherever it can, and this was one of the occasions, I'm sorry, I'm a natural blonde you know, don't keep getting at me...sniff sniff sniff...it is 3.00 am........ Besides, there have been several Bethlehem hospitals, on differing sites, most of them asylumns of some sort, where you could be incarcerated and considered dangerous for just having bad PMT or epilepsy. And yes, I do know that, got the Asylumn returns to prove it. LTS |
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27 Nov 99 - 10:51 AM (#141327) Subject: RE: Tom of Bedlam From: I posted the following to rec.music.folk in April 95 when there was little non-institutional access to internet and I had to "gate" through from a FIDOnet, Electronic Bulletin Board. Just 4 years ago and FIDOnet essentially gone as well as all its folklore & lexicon. "sysop" "BBS" "sig" (not Signiture) "tagline." Seems ages ago. This is 100 years later than Bruce's reference, but shaping up to the mainline song: In Thomas D'Urfey; _Pills to Purge Melancholy_ of 1719 or 1720, page 56: TOM a BEDLAM
Forth from my sad and darksome Cell, Plus 11 verses, many of which include odd classical references such as
Last night I heard the Dog-Star bark ending with
The man in the Moon drinks Clarret, I think this is pretty clearly the main root of the Steeleye version. |
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27 Nov 99 - 01:27 PM (#141376) Subject: RE: Tom of Bedlam From: Bruce O. It's first know published appearance was in Choyce Songs and Ayres, 1673, but variant texts appear earlier in manuscripts (including the Percy Folio) and it is in several later books, and a broadside ballad expansion was entered in the Stationers' Register in 1675 (ZN910 in the broadside ballad index on my website). Its tune is "Grays Inn Masque" (ABC of it is B165 on my website). It's in Pills, III, p. 43-4, 1719, without music or tune direction (and in all earlier editions of Pills). |
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27 Nov 99 - 02:48 PM (#141397) Subject: RE: Tom of Bedlam From: Bruce O. I should have stated that my message referred to the song just previous to it, "Forth from my sad....", which is called "New Mad Tom O' Bedlam" on the broadside copies. Credit where credit is due also: Most of my information is from Claude M. Simpson's 'The British Broadside Ballad and Its Music', 1966. Note also another 'Belamite' song accompanies the "New Mad Tom" on broadsides issues. |
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27 Nov 99 - 03:44 PM (#141417) Subject: ADD: Darksome Cell - Re: Tom of Bedlam From: Bruce O. Here is the copy that Hales and Furnival gave from the Percy Folio MS
Darksome Cell:
Fforth ffrom my sadd & darksome cell,
ffeare & dispayre pursue my soule!
through woods I wander night and day
when mee he spyes, away hee fflyes;
Cold & comfortlesse I lye.
harke! I heere Appolloes teeme,
Come, vulcan with tooles & with takells,
Last night I heard the dogstar barke,
Mars with his weapons layd about,
Mercurye, the nimble post of heauen,
to me he dranke, I did him thanke, poore naked Tom is verry drye;
hearke! I heare Acteons hounds.
the man in the moone drinkes Clarett, The two line verses are attached at the beginning of the following verse in the Pills copy, which differs a bit in wording in several places. |
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27 Nov 99 - 06:32 PM (#141454) Subject: RE: Tom of Bedlam From: Penny S. Bruce, I am going to have to go to the cafe to access your site. This is what the school filter says: The page contains material that might be offensive •The page may reside on a site that contains large amounts of offensive material, or does not screen the web pages of its subscribers •You may have tried to search for a word that will bring up links to offensive material •The site offers unregulated chat facilities. You are in good company though - an ancient history index on women in ancient egypt has the same block on it. I can think of reasons why. I can think of reasons why folk song might trigger the same response, but I have no trouble with the forum here, or the DT, despite all! Penny |
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27 Nov 99 - 06:57 PM (#141466) Subject: RE: Tom of Bedlam From: Bruce O. Penny, someone, I know not who, had some prono GIFS and JPEGs on another website on the same server at one time, and maybe they are still there, but I actually know only what's on my website (and I've forgotten much of that), and have never visited anyone else's on my server. I do have a number of old songs to which some could probably take offense. However, I've never received any complaints, in any form. My server is balky again today, and I've failed to get to it on several tries today. |
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27 Nov 99 - 07:08 PM (#141468) Subject: RE: Tom of Bedlam From: Penny S. Bruce, I didn't think, from what you said, that there is likely to be anything offensive. I don't really understand how the Research Machines filter thing works. It's not nearly good enough at what it is supposed to do - ads get on the screen from innocent looking sites, very strange addresses show up in searches and so on - I wouldn't really want the children hanging round here, though its unlikely, and at the moment, we don't use the net enough, and it's enough under control not to be a problem. I suspect that it's one of the more technical objections, like the one which keeps me out of the chat. The alternative is that someone did take offense and reported your site as a problem, but that doesn't seem likely. Or maybe it spotted the letter string ero, and thought it meant something else. What is really irritating is that I don't have a teacher option of switching off the filter, because it is at the service provider's end. Given that there are grey areas, that would be polite to a professional. Penny |
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27 Nov 99 - 07:54 PM (#141483) Subject: RE: Tom of Bedlam From: Bruce O. I should have said directly that I rent 5 megabytes of space on my server, and don't know who or what else the server hosts. Geocities.com always throws advs. at one now, so I don't look at anything there. Henrik Norbeck moved his website elswhere because of that.
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28 Nov 99 - 03:23 AM (#141649) Subject: RE: Tom of Bedlam From: Liz the Squeak 'Ere, what have Vulcans got to do with it?? It is illogical..... LTS |
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28 Nov 99 - 11:06 AM (#141696) Subject: RE: Tom of Bedlam From: InOBU A week ago, my wee band Sorcha Dorcha, played at a fundraiser for homelessness. We were going (and did) to lead off with Tom of Bedlam. Just before we were to go on, a fellow sang a rather quaint little song about kids, during which he stopped mid verse to remind us that kids are a gift from God. Well, it took all my moral fortitude to not give the intro, which I shared with the band before we went on... as follows... We indorce the sentiments of the last artist. Kids are great, you can hug em, cuddle em, teach em, .... make pies... Tom of Bedlam - great old song Larry Otway |