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BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?

24 Mar 15 - 04:23 PM (#3696523)
Subject: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,achmelvich

i am increasingly confused by the insistent and angry comment on scotland in the media. surely unionist supporters were pleased with the result of the referendum and pleased that scotland would continue to be a valued and close partner in the uk. so why all the insults at the prospect of scotland having a say in the post-election government? folk in the north of our islands would seem to prefer a more sensible and slightly more centre-left/progressive direction. there are many thousands in england who would like this too. labour party used to aspire to something similar. it's thoroughly depressing (again) to see the response from the labour party. and just ridiculous is the hysterical nonsense fro the tories and their friends.
there is no need to go over the referendum debate (yet) again - the scots won't be off within the next parliamentary term and the political parties will have to work together to some extent. why all the pre-match abuse?

24 Mar 15 - 07:46 PM (#3696571)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: Steve Shaw

It's all posturing. The realpolitik will kick in after the election, unless by some miracle and act of Godly mercy Labour gets an overall majority. Here's how it goes for now:

*The SNP know full well that if they wipe Labour out in Scotland there will be another Cameron government, the worst possible outcome for Scotland, so today Alex has said that he'll bring the Tories down as soon as he can if they win. In other words, vote fearlessly SNP and leave the Tories to us. The only problem with that is that an early second election fought in that scenario would put the Tories in for sure.

*The Tories are being quiet in Scotland because they want the SNP to wipe Labour out. They're scared of a Labour recovery there, so they have to keep bleating on about how Labour will end up consorting with the party that would break up the Union. At the same time, by using that specious argument the Tories have burned what bridges there might have been between them and the SNP.

*Labour can't be seen to be courting the SNP for the reason given above, though they will jump at as close a liaison as possible, even a coalition, if they get half a chance if Ed is the biggest party but with no overall majority.

So they all have to be seen as hating one another's guts. There is no scintilla of cross-party friendship that wouldn't have contumely instantly raining down on it. So they have all got to be seen to be nasty to each other.

My view is that by far the least damaging outcome for everyone would be a coalition between Labour and the SNP, and I wouldn't mind betting that, secretly, most members of both parties would go for that, though they daren't say anything until after polling day. Ah yes, democracy, who needs it...

24 Mar 15 - 07:46 PM (#3696572)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: Mrrzy

Thought it was the canadians you had to love, eh? Aren't the scots the ones you have to love, och?

24 Mar 15 - 07:53 PM (#3696574)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: Ed T

Here's to the Scottish Canadians, eh-och.

25 Mar 15 - 02:45 AM (#3696608)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: Musket

This is what happens when Tam Dalyell's West Lothian question gets answered. Possibly best if it hadn't been asked in the first place!

We voted to stay in the union. That means Westminster MPs North of the border. But the falling over each other of party leaders to court us means Scottish MPs will be able to influence English affairs but the opposite doesn't really apply.

A dogs dinner really. Not sure of the answers but a Labour majority is the least damaging outcome. So long as Ed Balls can balance fiscal prosperity with social inequality and do a better job than Osborn in addressing the one with the other.

But don't look up here for answers. This lot of jokers with good intention relied on oil to realise their dreams. Just as the price plummeted and unemployment in Aberdeen started rising.....

25 Mar 15 - 03:56 AM (#3696622)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: akenaton

The SNP don't want a "coalition with Labour or anyone else... their raison d'etre is to make Scotland an independent country, then put their really important policies into action.


Does anyone think politicians tell the truth, or reveal their motives?
If so those who do are extremely stupid, politicians use every means at their disposal to gain power.

Just look at how all Westminster parties have adopted THE CONCEPT of immigration regulation, just because it is seen as popular.....after demonising UKIP and Mr Farage as a racist for espousing the very same policies a couple of years ago.
I would like to see a hugely improved retraining programme for our young folks, and heavily capped immigration from the EU.
Within a few years, I would like to see Scotland leave the EU
I would like to see a withdrawal from NATO and the removal of weapons of mass destruction,from our soil.
I would like to see the people of Scotland represented by the MSPs they elect and Scotland a sovereign nation once again.

These are the main reasons I vote SNP....to do so I have to accept the populist drivel of a mythical equality agenda which is crippling our country in society and in the workplace.
This mythical agenda is of course aimed at a hopeless and workless generation of young people, who are under the misconception that "equality" can be gained by talking about gender incessantly, without any pain or action being taken.

Real equality involves hard work, a lowering of personal living standards....for everyone, not just the hopeless and workless.

If I was a Conservative or Labour voter, I would be "very afraid" about the consequences of the coming election.

25 Mar 15 - 05:28 AM (#3696641)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome

Just snippets from the above nonsense...

Does anyone think politicians tell the truth, or reveal their motives?
If so those who do are extremely stupid, politicians use every means at their disposal to gain power...

...I would like to see the people of Scotland represented by the MSPs they elect and Scotland a sovereign nation once again.

And it wonders why people ridicule it. Scottish politicians are different from other politicians in which way?

25 Mar 15 - 06:21 AM (#3696652)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: Musket

Well we voted to remain British subjects so it really is drivel he us coming out with. Not to mention disrespectful towards the inhabitants of Scotland. Not just me and my husband for once, but all of us.

Even SNP for that matter. They are a party that away from their Rob Roy fixation are committed to an equality agenda Labour could only dream of. The embedding of LBGT equality is topmost in Sturgeon's dream of a successful Scotland.

To quote the SNP leader the other week; "Equality leads to prosperity."

Domestically, I could vote for them if they concentrated on sorting out Scotland ie what they are supposed to be doing. But as Akenaton has demonstrated, they will never be fully credible till they ditch the loony fringe who disagree with everything the party stands for on the basis they also want to be independent. We spoke. About time they listened.

25 Mar 15 - 06:59 AM (#3696664)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: Stu

I'm hoping that Labour gain enough of a majority in the UK to form a coalition with the SNP, who wipe out Labour in Scotland and unseat Danny Alexander. That way we get a left of centre government influenced by a genuinely progressive party who will hold Labour to account for their actions.

Meanwhile: the tories get a stuffing in the north and working class south again, the Greens gain two seats, Farage fails in South Thanet and the kippers vote collapses under the weight of their hypocrisy and general unpleasantness..

25 Mar 15 - 07:01 AM (#3696665)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: Steve Shaw

I think they would be Labour's best partners by a country mile. If Labour teams up with Clegg I'm going to fly a vomit-laden drone over Number Ten and take aim very carefully. I've had lessons from the Bude herring gulls, so, Ed, be warned.

25 Mar 15 - 07:02 AM (#3696666)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: Steve Shaw

Yeah, Stu, let's see the ginger rodent unseated!

25 Mar 15 - 07:03 AM (#3696667)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: akenaton

"General unpleasantness".... they're all pretty unpleasant Stu.

Time for something "completely different".....but I can't guarantee that it will be "pleasant".

25 Mar 15 - 07:23 AM (#3696677)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: akenaton

Labour are more likely to "team up" with the Tories and Lib Dems than SNP....they are not THAT stupid.

There could be a war after the election.....a war against the people.

25 Mar 15 - 07:29 AM (#3696678)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: akenaton

Dave....I have no reason to believe that our politicians are any less devious than those in the major parties, but the difference is that they are working for me and my view of how Scotland should be governed.

You turkeys vote for Christmas EVERY time....   :0)

25 Mar 15 - 07:34 AM (#3696680)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome

So, ake, you believe one set of politicians over another simply on the grounds that they are of a different nationality? Speaks volumes really.

25 Mar 15 - 07:51 AM (#3696684)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: akenaton

You don't half talk some rubbish at times Dave.

Nice to see you have stopped referring to me as "it" :0)....I suppose EVERYONE grows up sometime?

I don't give a Flying F**k what nationality or gender they are as long as they work for a free Scotland.

25 Mar 15 - 07:59 AM (#3696688)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome

So, the only politicians you care about are the ones who work for a free Scotland? (Whatever that may mean) How many of those are of other nationalities? And you accuse me of talking rubbish.

No, I will still refer to you as it when you are not addressing me directly, which I would prefer you not to do anyway. Musket refers to you as worm. I think that is too kind. Worms are useful and I would feel guilty about hitting a worm with a spade.

25 Mar 15 - 09:47 AM (#3696724)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: Stu

""General unpleasantness".... they're all pretty unpleasant Stu."

True, but UKIP is like the dustbin of UK politics; full of cast-off tories, miscreants, criminals and cowardly right-wingers to scared to join the EDL. They're in state of semi-collapse at the moment and it's obvious that the whole shebang is a one-man show, and that man is as much a money-grabbing wannabe as any in the main parties. If the only person you can parachute in as a PPC to a seat is slimy uber tory twat Neil Hamilton* then the party is royally fucked.


*He was rejected as PPC.

25 Mar 15 - 11:22 AM (#3696748)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: akenaton

I might agree if UKIP was only garnering votes from frustrated Tories, but it a appears large numbers of Labour voters in the North of England are also prepared to give their support to Mr Farage.

Unregulated immigration from Eastern Europe has decimated the British working class....it has become obvious that the playing field is heavily tilted in favour of immigrants......and more importantly those who benefit from their basic living conditions and poor wages.

This state of affairs did not happen by accident, but was engineered by the Capitalist system in an attempt to make this country "competitive" (code for profitable to a few)

Always remember Blair's immortal words "immigration will make the UK competitive in the global market place".
Blair was leader of the Labour Party at that time.
I vowed never ever to vote Labour again.

25 Mar 15 - 11:37 AM (#3696755)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,achmelvich

'it has become obvious that the playing field is heavily tilted in favour of immigrants' - just realised why you get so much stick, ake. this is shite. surely anyone can see that the (soon to be sold off) playing field is (and always has been) overwhelmingly tilted in favour of the wealthy and well-connected. granted if you are a very wealthy immigrant you will receive tax breaks and other incentives to park your business here and take the profits back home but - as ever-it's not a nationality problem, it's a problem with the 1%

25 Mar 15 - 11:49 AM (#3696756)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: Musket

SNP are a business friendly, inclusive, inward investment, pro immigration party who put equality at the heart of their agenda. With over 10% of NHS clinical posts remaining empty, the Scottish government is sending people, me amongst them, to tour universities in the Indian subcontinent speaking with post graduate deans regarding registrars about to get their consultant number and staff grade doctors.

I fly to Mumbai in three weeks time.

Presumably Alex has an alter ego because Akenaton could never support SNP.

Or he is as confused as he is disgraceful to his species..

25 Mar 15 - 11:50 AM (#3696758)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: Steve Shaw

Not only is it shite, it is also the precise opposite of socialist thinking.

25 Mar 15 - 11:50 AM (#3696759)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: akenaton

That's exactly what I was saying, I don't blame the immigrants, they are doing the best they can for themselves and their families the poor wages and basic living conditions are worth it considering what they have in their own country.
As you say the only people in the UK who benefit are unscrupulous landlords and employers.....any benefit to the exchequer is offset by more capital expenditure on infrastructure.

I don't give a sfuff what you or anyone else THINKS of me, I tell it like it is. Try to keep civil.

25 Mar 15 - 12:00 PM (#3696766)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: Steve Shaw

Try to keep it civil? You were calling us turkeys a little while ago.

25 Mar 15 - 12:04 PM (#3696768)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: akenaton

If the Scottish government don't start addressing the problems of youth unemployment when we become independent, and start a massive training and re-training programme, then they will be in for a short sharp shock.

We cannot rely on immigrant labour when so many of our people are without work, and without a future.


"Not only is it shite, it is also the precise opposite of "socialist thinking." :0)

Don't lecture me on politics Steve, you wouldn't know a real socialist if you found one in your soup.

I never met a "liberal" socialist in my life, usually they are committed to the important issues like changing the economic system.
They know you cant "fix" capitalism. They know that under capitalism equality is a myth....and a dangerous lie.

25 Mar 15 - 12:18 PM (#3696771)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome

I pasted this into another thread but it is worth repeating here.

Echoing the rather arcane language of the legislation, "idiots" may not vote and "lunatics" only during their lucid periods. Those compulsorily detained in psychiatric hospitals, for example, cannot vote.

I have never, until now, suggested that anyone should be refused a vote but in light of the obvious fact that 'lucid moments' are beyond it, I would make an exception here.

25 Mar 15 - 12:44 PM (#3696778)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: Thompson

I don't have a dog in this fight - not my country - but wouldn't Scotland work better if people didn't turn on each other but worked together for a better Scotland?
"Equality Leads to Prosperity" - I like that. True, too.

25 Mar 15 - 12:59 PM (#3696783)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: Ed T

Wasn't Adam Smith a pioneer Scottish social philosopher and political economist?
Should he not be forgiven for his influence on capitalism, as we know it?

26 Mar 15 - 02:30 AM (#3696996)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn

You know to tell you the truth Scots will be kind of demonised by sections of the London media, and the Conservative Party in England, whatever we do. If we did swing back to Labour and it tipped the scales in an election then Scots would be blamed for forcing Labour on to a Tory voting England. We've been kind of accused of that already even though the Blair/Brown gvts all had a majority of seats in England anyway. If we stick to voting for who we actually want to then at the moment Labour are going to get cuffed in Scotland. Unlikely to make much difference to the overall Tory number of seats. Then Scotland will be castigated, as it already is being, for daring to send MPs from a party that has no mandate in England - depsite the fact that Northern Irish voters have been doing that for 90 years or so! The continual drip drip demonising of Sturgeon, Salmond and the SNP (and by association nearly half of voting Scots) by English Tories may be meant to scare floating English voters away from Ed Miliband but in tandem with that it is consolidating Nat support in Scotland and dismaying some No voters who thought we were better together and know that Scottish constituencies are just as British as constituencies in Surrey hence have as much right to their say at Westminster than anyone else. Here is one recent blog from Alex Massie - hardly a friend to the SNP.

   http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/03/the-tory-partys-attitude-towards-scotlandisasstupidasitiscynical/

26 Mar 15 - 02:48 AM (#3696999)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn

Thompson I think the original thread is not about Scots turning on each other. We don't generally do that. Yes there was real differences in the referendum but all in all the process, with some flaws, was a democratic success story with ethnicity etc largely irrelevant to the debate. The original posts asked why all the insults at the prospects of Scots having a say in gvt after the election. The barbs thrown at the idea of Scots MPs having some input in to supporting a minority Labour gvt, even on a vote to vote basis, haven't been coming from other Scots!

26 Mar 15 - 03:30 AM (#3697008)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome

FWIW I would welcome a minority Labour government with support from the SNP as a very good alternative to continuing with the present administration. As a life long supported of the Labour movement I was very much in a cleft stick about continuing to support them in the light of the cock-ups the last lot made. I would not, however, support any party that penalises the poor while lining their own and their cronies pockets. I think the SNP, outside the whip of any major party, could well be the hand that creates stability.

Trouble is the media is owned by the rich and they are feeding the masses a line about how our country is being ruined by foreign invaders, ranging from Romania to Scotland. Sadly, some people still believe them.

26 Mar 15 - 06:05 AM (#3697044)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: Keith A of Hertford

What would SNP demand in return?
Nothing of benefit to UK obviously.

26 Mar 15 - 06:28 AM (#3697050)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,Sol

Nothing to the further benefit of the extreme right, so you're part right I suppose.

26 Mar 15 - 06:37 AM (#3697051)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,achmelvich

they may well offer a more thoughtful alternative. as a wealthy nation we do not always have to be so backward, so negative and so keen to flog off all that is worthwhile about our country. snp in government have tried to preserve the NHS and social services for example and have had some success in the face of westminster opposition. if they could encourage the rest of us just to think a bit differently, i am sure they could get the support of the vast majority of english voters - and the labour party might actually start to remember what they are supposed to be about.

if they can offer 5 years of tories out of office that is a massive gift to all the countries in the uk

26 Mar 15 - 06:57 AM (#3697057)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome

Well said, achmelvich. If they can offer a serious alternative to the tired old platitudes of all the major parties without sinking to the depths of needless nationalism that UKRAP do, I would also welcome them holding the balance of power.

26 Mar 15 - 07:09 AM (#3697060)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,BrendanB

I have just caught up with this thread so forgive me for commenting on a post some distance back. Akenaton stated that he tells it as it is. That is monstrous arrogance. He tells it as he sees it. He is not omniscient.
In conversations I have had it has been interesting to note that a number of people who I would consider moderate and reasonable (these are virtues in my estimation) have reservations about the SNP; these seem to centre around the primary aims of the party. In among their various centre left, socially progressive policies lies the principle upon which they are founded (check their name).
I can entirely sympathise with someone voting SNP with the expectation that the party will concentrate its efforts on improving the lot of Scotland and the Scots, for the party not to do so might even be seen as a dereliction of duty. The problem is that a majority of the population of the UK do not live in Scotland. Can a party founded on the principle of independence for one part of the UK be trusted to act in the interests of the whole of the UK?
I really do not know the answer to that but the fact that a political party which could have a significant impact after the election stands only in one clearly defined part of the UK seems somehow out of kilter with democracy - even if I cannot quite explain why.

26 Mar 15 - 07:25 AM (#3697064)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: akenaton

Keith is quite correct in what he says....the most likely scenario is a loose coalition of Labour and Tory to "Save the Union"...just as happened in the referendum.

Once they get used to their new positions, their new ministerial briefs they will come to like it very much......the poor the workless and worthless will at last see the reality.

Perhaps, if the Scottish people are demonised enough by the establishment, sanctions against us would be a possibility.....force? not again surely?

26 Mar 15 - 07:41 AM (#3697069)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn

Can a party founded on the principle of independence work for the benefit of all in a UK institution? Of course they can and the Nats have a history of doing just that in the Scottish Parliament which is of course itself a UK insitution. And during their first term they worked with other parties for the whole of their term as they were a minority administration so they arguably have more form on that than any of the UK wide parties.

And remember they aren't suggesting a coalition (Sturgeon herself said that would be unlikely) and are not looking for gvt positions. They simply said that they could work with Labour on an issue by issue basis. In other words there are some issues where they wouldn't back the gvt. Just as there were some things they couldn't go ahead with in their first term at Holyrood as they were a minority.

The line taken by the London media seems to be that they would only be at Westminster to mischief make - which is an absurd line to take as there is no history to back that up.

They could well look for some things from Labour. Some which are achievable for instance having Ed Miliband look for the Vow on Scotland's constitutional future to be upheld. Other things are unlikely to be agreed - like the scrapping of Trident's upgrade. There would be no benfit of the SNP even thinking about voting against Labour on a confidence vote over that. It wouldn't be logical as the Tories are even more in favour of the upgrade. Again from their own history in gvt the Nats are used to getting what they can and not getting all they want!

As to what would they give to benefit the UK as a whole! Well that depends on your viewpoint. If you are right of centre then I imagine you'd think the Nats have nothing to give. If you are left of centre then they may well be espousing ideas that you agree with. But again remember they are not particularly looking to be in gvt anyway!!

26 Mar 15 - 07:50 AM (#3697071)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: Teribus

"GUEST,Allan Conn - 26 Mar 15 - 02:48 AM

Thompson I think the original thread is not about Scots turning on each other. We don't generally do that. Yes there was real differences in the referendum but all in all the process, with some flaws, was a democratic success story with ethnicity etc largely irrelevant to the debate."

GUEST,Allan Conn IIRC comes from the Scottish Borders where 67% of the 95,533 electorate voted NO - Overall 55% of those who voted voted NO as opposed to 45% who voted YES, now if indeed the referendum was the democratic success that Alan Conn claims then a Scottish National Party shoulld not even be standing for election. It is a single issue party by definition and the electorate of Scotland all 4,283,392 of them rejected independence as follows:

1,617,989 voted YES - i.e. they wanted an independent Scotland
2,001,926 voted NO - i.e. actively rejected the idea of an independent Scotland preferring to stay within the UK.
660,048 Did not vote - i.e. electorally they couldn't care less/ perfectly happy with the status quo, if they weren't then they should have voted.

So it is not simply a case of 44.7% saying YES and 55.3% saying NO - the fact is that taking the electorate of Scotland as a whole only 37.8% supported and wanted an Independent Scotland while 62.2% were happy with things they way they are with Scotland being part of the United Kingdom.

I do not think the Scots per se are being criticised in the media, I think one or two prominent Scottish politicians are, and quite rightly. No coincidence that they are the same ones who lied to, and deliberately mislead, the electorate of Scotland throughout the Referendum campaign, the same ones who made very public statements about accepting the will of the people, supporting the democratic process and working for the good of the nation as a whole (Which by the way means the United Kingdom in light of the referendum result) and then reneged on every single statement. Sturgeon and Salmond have no interest in doing what is best for Scotland and they never have.

26 Mar 15 - 08:05 AM (#3697080)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones

The issue is not Scotland having a say in the election, Scots are still citizens of the UK and as entitled to vote as the rest of us. What is of concern is the prospect of a particular party with an agenda expressly dedicated to the break up of the UK holding the balance of power, and using it to promote that agenda rather than the interests of the UK as a whole.

I suspect Salmond's strategy will be to make Scotland so unpopular among the English that come the next independence referendum we'll all be campaigning to see the back of you.

26 Mar 15 - 08:26 AM (#3697090)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn

Teribus stop twisting my words I said the referendum was a democratic success which it obviously was. That is turnout was just shy of 85%; the electorate was engaged; and it was for the most part a completely peaceful process - with the only real blight being the BNP type mini riot the day after. I did not suggest the Yes side won or anything like that merely stated it was a success for democracy!

As to the figures sorry but you can't count people who didn't vote as being on one side of the argument or the other. The facts are that 15% of people didn't vote so they din't vote. That can just as much be described as them not caring about saving the union as not caring about independence. 53.23% of people either voted to end the union or apparently didn't care whether it was saved or not. Referendums don't work like that though. We only counted the people who actually voted.

As to my area well of course what counts is the votes in the country as a whole - and not one local gvt area. But your words don't take account of what has happened since either. The membership of the SNP has quadrupled during the intervening period and now sits on 100,000 people. In the polls for both the forthcoming Westminster and next year's Holyrood elections they have left Labour trailing in their wake and it has been increasing in all areas of Scotland. Even the local Tory Party here now see Michael Moore as dead and buried and the main rival being the SNP candidate!

The SNP may only have got 10% of the vote in the last General Election here but they then got 24% of the vote in the Holyrood election and some pundits even have them in front now for the election. Personally I think that John Lamont will get in here for the Tories. The pundits predicting 50 or more SNP seats base that on uniform voting across the country not taking account of local factors. Seemingly the Nat leadership themselves are expecting something short of 40 seats.

As to your last paragraph well sorry I read things completely different from you. I don't see where the leadership has either lied or renaged on their promises and as per the first post in this thread there is plenty evidence of an anti-Scottish attitude from the Tory party in England and some of the media. You choose to not recognise it but I do, it made Achmelvich start this thread; and it even has die in the wool unionists like Alex Massie baulking.

26 Mar 15 - 08:34 AM (#3697094)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,Sol

"Ed T - Wasn't Adam Smith a pioneer Scottish social philosopher and political economist? Should he not be forgiven for his influence on capitalism, as we know it?"

Naw.

26 Mar 15 - 09:14 AM (#3697107)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome

May as well ask the tide to stop, Allan. You are not related to an old Norse king who is an anagram of something that may be deleted are you? :-)

26 Mar 15 - 09:38 AM (#3697115)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,HiLo

A number of years ago Canada found itself with a Quebec Separatists party, Parti Quebecois, as the official opposition. This party ran only in Quebec, the rest of the country could not vote for or against them. The Problem with arrangement was that it served no ones interest. Years of squabbling over Separatism nearly ruined that country. So be careful what you wish for.

26 Mar 15 - 10:05 AM (#3697122)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: Nigel Parsons

If Scotland achieved independence how would it be funded?
Before the referendum Alex Salmond seemed to assume Scotland could live off its North Sea Fuel income.
Since then estimates of available fuel have dropped sharply, as has the price such fuel obtains.

26 Mar 15 - 10:14 AM (#3697123)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: Teribus

Allan if the Independence referendum was such a success for democracy care to tell us all why you have a former Scottish First Minister, who:

1: Promised to abide by the will of the electorate;
2: Stated that the referendum was "generational";
3: Left Westminster accepting the £65,000 package as payment for costs associated with returning to "normal" life as a member of the public;
4: Loses the Independence referendum;
5: Resigns as First Minister and Leader of the SNP.

THEN:
1: Ignores the declared wishes of the electorate by;
2: Chattering on about another referendum within the term of the next Parliament and encourages his successor to add weight to that plan
3: Promptly announces that no-longer being the Leader of the SNP, or First Minister in the Scottish Parliament, he will now stand for election to Westminster - where he is there to serve whose interests exactly? His party's, his constituents?

Statements by Alex Salmond:

"If you don't want me running England better vote Tory"

"I'll bring down the Tories and install Milliband"

"I will help write Ed Balls' first Budget"

Statements by Sturgeon:

"SNP: We have the right to dictate policy for all Britain"

Rather amused by this:

"As to the figures sorry but you can't count people who didn't vote as being on one side of the argument or the other." - Allan Conn

Don't be ridiculous of course you can - had they wanted to vote for independence then they, the world, it's dog and it's uncle, knew they would have to cast a vote - fact is they didn't - other unalterable fact is that only 37.8% of the electorate of Scotland voted for independence - the rest didn't.

26 Mar 15 - 10:28 AM (#3697128)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn

Though HiLo the issue here is not over seperatism per se. It is over whether MPs from Scottish constituencies where SNP members have been voted in have a legitimate right to their voice in the UK parliament. We were told (by the English Tories amongst other) that we were better together and they wanted us to remain in the UK. But now we have things like Tory minister Grant Schapps saying that if the SNP members decided to side with Labour if they were only the second largest party then it'd be a "threat to undermine the gvt chosen by the British people" which of course is nonsense. If the SNP and Labour combined have more seats in the House than the Tories then that is because a higher number of British constituencies would have voted for one of those parties. You can't say "please stay in the UK but don't expect to try and have any kind of sway in the UK parliament"? It doesn't work like that.

I'm still baffled by a Question Time programme several weeks ago too where one of the audience asked the question "would a Labour/SNP alliance be a betrayal to the English people?" and the Tory on the panel said it would! I'm still trying to figure out what Nicola Sturgeon or anyone else in the SNP have ever done to English voters to warrant that.

26 Mar 15 - 10:50 AM (#3697144)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,HiLo

Yes, I see your point. The issues are different in many respects. But the constant threat of referenda does tend to destabilise things.

26 Mar 15 - 10:52 AM (#3697145)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn

Look sorry this is getting absurd. People either vote in any election/referendum or they don't vote. The question was a Yes/No question and people made their choice. 55% voted No and 45% voted Yes. It is ludicrous to suggest everyone who didn't vote were No voters! They were non voters! If you are counting the whole electorate then only 46.77% of Scots voted No. I wouldn't even try to claim that it then means that 53.33% wanted independence. It is a very silly argument.

As to the little snippets you've quoted I'm not going to go through every one and try and figure out where it was said etc and what context it was said in. I googled the Sturgeon example and only came up with one hit from a girl called Emma!!! But I did watch Andrew Marr on Sunday morning where Salmond gave a reasonable explanation as to how as leader of a minority gvt he had to work with other parties to get measures through and that Labour would have the same issues and that the SNP were likely to be a party they'd need support from. So as a minority party they could be in positions of strength and they are not hiding that as their aim. Why should they? They have as much right to have an influence on the UK parliament as any member from Surrey or Bedfordshire etc. Not much difference from last time when Nick Clegg was saying the same thing - the only difference being he wasn't viewed by the media as a threat to British democracy!

As to Salmond standing for Westminster come on he has every right to stand for Westminster! It will be up to the electorate as to whether he gets in or not!

26 Mar 15 - 11:51 AM (#3697162)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: Richard Bridge

Ah well, that was mildly amusing in places. Gorballs!

26 Mar 15 - 01:56 PM (#3697213)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: Musket

Just in case those talking about what an independent Scotland would look like...

It would look like Narnia because like Narnia, it doesn't exist. We voted to retain the union. I tried to look for advantages of independence before casting my vote and couldn't think of a single one.

Not one.

Irrelevant now.

I look to those working in the Scottish parliament concentrating on what they can achieve here on earth, given the constitutional makeup. Rather than what they could do if only the people hadn't told them to Fuck Off last year.

26 Mar 15 - 02:58 PM (#3697234)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome

So that wardrobe I go through at Gretna isn't real? :-)

I presume this is the Scottish Musket who is either a doctor or is married to a doctor BTW? Some people cannot seem to see the difference or even suggest that all Muskets are the same. Probably in the same way they think all Chinese look the same or all Jews are money lenders...

26 Mar 15 - 03:13 PM (#3697241)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,achmelvich

musket - would it not be something of an advantage for the scots if they weren't permanently ruled by a load of privileged eejits who have a very different set of priorities to theirs?

26 Mar 15 - 04:44 PM (#3697266)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: Steve Shaw

What would SNP demand in return?
Nothing of benefit to UK obviously.

Scotland is the UK just as much as Hertfordshire is the UK. As is the Westcountry, Wales and Northern Ireland. Politicians fighting their own corners is the inevitable consequence of our horribly south-east-centric way of running the country. Boris fights his corner very well for London, right? Do you think he does it with altruistic intention for the rest of the UK? If it's OK for Boris, why isn't it OK for Alex?

26 Mar 15 - 05:20 PM (#3697277)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: akenaton

Because the SNP are dedicated to making Scotland an independent country,....a sovereign nation....splitting the UK.

That is "telling it like it is".

I wish them well in their endeavours.

Our politicians will do anything within reason to achieve their goal, just as UK politicians do to save their jobs and their privilege, so stop whining that it is "just not fair" again.

26 Mar 15 - 06:15 PM (#3697297)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: Steve Shaw

I'm sure the Welsh Nats would love Wales to be independent. I'm sure Sinn Fein would love to have a united and independent Ireland. There are Cornish nationalists round here who are quite popular. All these, and the SNP, do not get their way because we have a democracy. If you don't get your way in a democracy (I never get my way - for 36 years I've lived either in an ultra-safe Tory seat or a Tory-LibDem marginal) you still have every right to continue to fight your corner and make your argument without the risk of your supporters being disadvantaged. This current theme of Scotland deserving to be shat on because they nearly (but not quite) voted for independence is arrant nonsense. We'll leave collective punishment to the Israeli regime, shall we?

26 Mar 15 - 06:33 PM (#3697305)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST

Whatever hsppened to DevoMax?

26 Mar 15 - 09:09 PM (#3697353)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: Teribus

Moderators could you give me some explanation why when asked a specific question on this forum I am not allowed to respond?

26 Mar 15 - 09:11 PM (#3697355)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: Steve Shaw

Don't worry, mate, it happens to us all. It just isn't really our gig, I guess.

26 Mar 15 - 09:17 PM (#3697357)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: Teribus

"Steve Shaw - 26 Mar 15 - 06:15 PM

Israel has got what to do with this topic?

A political party whose core policy is to break up the United Kingdom cannot under any guise under heaven EVER claim that it will seriously act in the best interests of the United Kingdom - if they claim to do so they are lying.

27 Mar 15 - 02:42 AM (#3697392)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: Musket

Achmelvich. What makes you think a a Westminster government or a Holyrood government would or could be any different to each other?

I reckon you have been reading too many newspapers. You vote. You get the government.

Akenaton appears unable to distinguish between Nationalist and Nation. The constitution of SNP is for Scottish decisions for Scotland, preferably through independence but also through devolution if that remains the will of the people.

It is why they can still run the Parish pump and carry on as a party post referendum.

Dave. Correct. Your mate is, I believe, in bed with lurgy at present. Although I did see a post on a music thread that could only be him.

27 Mar 15 - 02:54 AM (#3697395)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn

The SNP have been in gvt in Scotland for almost two whole terms now and according to all the polls are on track for another landslide victory - in a voting system designed to make it hard to get big majorities - and of course the Scottish parliament is now itself a core institution of the UK. If the SNP are trusted by enough of the electorate to run that UK institution then why on earth would they not be trusted to have 5% or 6% or so of the seats in another UK institution?

Secondly as to portrayal I am sorry but the weekly absurdity of Question Time panels was at it again last night. The female Tory politician on the panel again said that the idea that smaller parties may have any say was "incredibly frightening". Again it was aimed at Jim Murphy of Labour and the idea that a Labour gvt may work to some degree with the SNP.

Then Janet Street Porter said "people in England, without wanting to sound xenophobic, find all this talk of Plaid Cymru and deals very worrying"

Well sorry Janet but whatever way you dress it that does sound a tad kind of xenophobic and to the Tory woman if some people in England are really "frightened" of the SNP then it is only because Tory politicians keep telling them they have something to be "frightened" about. You are using language in a way to try and alarm people.

Now I know voters of a certain persuasion can be worried or frightened about other parties. I have various English Tory voting relatives who worry about Ed Miliband and his party. But this is different in language. The people who are claimed to be frightened or worried are "the English in general" whilst the demons on the door step are the SNP and Welsh Nationalists. It is a drip drip demonising of the non-English parties in a bid to try and scare English voters away from voting Labour which is all the more absurd when there is just as much a chance of the Tories coming to some accord with UKIP who seem to be riddled with racists, xenophobes, homophobes and misogynists. A much scarier prospect than either of the non English nationalist parties. And doubly absurd because sheer demographics ensure that the vast bulk of seats at Westminster are taken up by MPs from English constituencies. They will always have overall control of the house.

27 Mar 15 - 03:26 AM (#3697405)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: Musket

It is odd. UKIP of course give the impression of a protest vote and their policies do not stand scrutiny at any level, not matter how much you try to see what they could actually offer. They seem to offer lala land for bigots and racists but there you go.

SNP however are just the Labour Party without the Westminster whip. The origins of a party committed to independence, let's face it, could be on the left or right, socialist or capitalist in outlook. But in order to win votes you need to display policies. Hence a liberal outlook built on equality and social infrastructure. They obviously know the minds of Scots, even if they did get the mood wrong when it came to what they reckon is their fundamental reason for existing. I'm still chuckling over it.

The clever trick being that people like me could easily like what they aim to do day to day whilst those who want independence at any cost also vote for them even though SNP politicians would find their views abhorrent.

Good example here on Mudcat by the way.

27 Mar 15 - 03:49 AM (#3697411)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn

I agree Musket the idea that because a party's ideals are a certain way then all those who vote for them feel that way is way off.

27 Mar 15 - 04:01 AM (#3697415)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: Teribus

"The SNP have been in gvt in Scotland for almost two whole terms now and according to all the polls are on track for another landslide victory"

And they have achieved what Allan?

Health Service in chaos

Education in chaos right across the board

Police Service shambolic

Since losing the independence referendum they chatter on about more powers, what for? As the Government of Scotland, they have steadfastly refused to use the powers they currently have to alleviate what they perceive as being Scottish problems, preferring instead to sit back watch the "train-wreck" as their own populist policies create more shortages and then blame Westminster.

Personally as a Scot, I would actually prefer it if they shut the Scottish Parliament down, that of course isn't going to happen, but it would save billions - in reality it only ever was a totally unnecessary additional tier of Government created by Nu-Liebour to provide jobs for the boys and increase the number of places at the trough for a bunch of third raters. Like their White Paper this current SNP Government and any other is not fit for purpose.

27 Mar 15 - 04:38 AM (#3697426)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones

Whenever a single party cannot obtain a majority then minority parties will carry influence out of all proportion to numbers who voted for them. That is dangerous enough, in that there is a risk of the will of a minority overturning the that of the majority, but it is something we have to live with.

At least most of the minority parties, be it the Lib Dems, the Greens, UKIP etc claim to have the interests of the whole of the UK at heart. The difference with the SNP (and to a lesser extent Plaid Cymru) is that they do not.

27 Mar 15 - 04:57 AM (#3697433)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: akenaton

I'm sorry to disagree Mr T, but devolution was dreamt up, not as jobs for incompetent Scottish politicials, but to head off the real and present danger (in the late 70s) of Scottish independence.
A tactic, just like the Westminster coalition of "left and right", who made the vow of "Devo Max Max" during the late referendum and on which they have since reneged.

Allan, of course you are correct that all parties have supporters and members of different social persuasions, but you aught to be a bit more careful in who YOU perceive to be bigoted.

I have pointed out that on one policy UKIP have been proved to be correct, that unregulated immigration from the EU is a disaster for the UK in social terms(lack of infrastructure etc), and in political terms, as it has led to our own young people being deemed "uncompetitive" and forced to endure a life of absolute despair, a feeling of worthlessness, and in many cases abject poverty.

No one blames the immigrants for this, to them the UK is a honey pot and most of them see working here as the best way of supporting their families......our young folk would have absolutely nothing to gain by moving to Rumania hence the analogy of the sloping playing field.
Our government, Scottish or UK must take it on board that our young people who are presently parked on benefits which are unable to sustain them in any sort of meaningful life, must be taken into the work force and given a purpose, a means of contributing to a society which they see as working in their interests, not the interests of Capital.

This may mean a lowering of living standards for some of us...and looking at some UK members of this forum, that would not be a bad idea :0), but there is really no alternative, Blair's remarks about immigration and global competitiveness are now seen as a cynical and short term ploy, typical of the man who was nothing but an opportunist.
While we remain in the EU, we will never be able to be really independent, or have the ability to act in the best interests of our people
You seem to be in favour of Independence, as I am, but is it not about time we threw away all the fairy tale ideologies and started looking at the realities?

27 Mar 15 - 05:09 AM (#3697435)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome

Falls for the Daily Heil scare stories hook line and sinker then goes on about other people looking at realities. You couldn't make it up...

27 Mar 15 - 05:29 AM (#3697446)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: akenaton

Allan, I forgot to mention, but have been a self employed builder and slater in Argyll for over fifty years....I don't live in a bubble, I have had literally thousands of customers and friends locally in that time, I know how most of them think and in rural Scotland most are very socially conservative....we ignore that at our peril as the defeat in the late referendum has shown.

If you think that opposition to some "liberal" social policies is bigotry, then the new Scotland will have a high representation.
If we are to become a free country, intelligent people like you need to stop demonising fellow Scots for their social views.....we must not allow the media to dictate what sort of society we construct.

All that said as a member of the Communist Party for 40 years and the SNP for the last 16. If we are to move forward as a Nation, we must be aware of the strengths AND WEAKNESSES of our political ideology.

27 Mar 15 - 05:43 AM (#3697453)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome

..we must not allow the media to dictate what sort of society we construct.

Says the man who spouts the media lies that suit his agenda best.

27 Mar 15 - 05:46 AM (#3697455)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: akenaton

As I mentioned further up the thread Labour have much more in common with; and more to gain from a coalition with the Tories, than they have in any attachment to the SNP.


But THAT would be giving the GAME away, wouldn't it. :0)

27 Mar 15 - 08:17 AM (#3697526)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: Musket

Funny. I have been living near to Akenaton for a few years now and can state with relief that I have never come across anybody here who shares his outlook. My husband and I have integrated well into the local community and fail to recognise his take on a community he lives in but obviously doesn't understand or seem to be part of.

Fascinating.

There again, Scotland voted for a future he seems to think we don't want. No matter. He is irrelevant.

27 Mar 15 - 08:37 AM (#3697539)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: Teribus

"Few years" versus someone born, raised, schooled and worked there over the course of a lifetime - I think I'd put my money on the local man to know the score far better than any "incomer".

IIRC correctly Ake, Allan is from around Kelso down in the Borders, so the two communities (i.e. his and yours) are not so different.

On this and I dare say a number of other issues Akenaton and I are at opposite ends of the spectrum, he is perfectly entitled to his opinion on any subject under the sun and I am entitled to mine, we can state them freely and without rancor and without haking personal attacks as Christmas puts it.

Off to Google "haking" see you in a week.

27 Mar 15 - 09:22 AM (#3697564)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: Steve Shaw

Teribus burbling on about HE disapproves of personal attacks is hilarious. More, please!

I should like to revisit the sentiment of the opening post, and agree with it. The UK is politically very heterogeneous. I sometimes think that the Scots-bashers look at the map, see the narrow bit that delineates Scotland from England, and see no need for any further evidence than that with which to cement their prejudice. As this is a democracy, it doesn't matter who you voted for or what party you're in once the government is up and running. I EXPECT my local MPs to fight the Westcountry's corner. It's healthy that the Welsh Nats fight theirs. Whilst I don't care much for the unionists in the Six Counties, they and Sinn Fein have every right to fight for their local interests, civilly one hopes. I should like to see a lot more of this regionalism, actually, and we shouldn't forget that the reason we have it is that the country has been governed south-east-centrically since time immemorial. In none of these cases does advocacy of your local region make you less a member of this democracy. The SNP put up a stout, DEMOCRATIC fight for independence, and they lost, and, as far as I can see, they are still complying with the democratic norms of the whole nation. Actually, the referendum campaign has been widely lauded for being one of the best ever for engaging the public and apprising them of the issues. The turnout was good evidence for that. The best national example of good democracy in action in recent decades, I'd suggest. Naturally, there's a lot of political big talk going around before the election and the SNP have rolled up their sleeves as eagerly as anyone. But, before we get carried away with talk of their wielding the power, making Ed their poodle, etc., let's not forget two things: once the results are in, realpolitik takes over and all that's gone before is just fluff; and we've been here before, with a tawdry rump of LibDems, on the back of a fall in their vote, keeping one of the nastiest Tory governments of all time in power. I doubt whether the SNP could get anywhere near being as bad as that.

27 Mar 15 - 10:59 AM (#3697599)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: Musket

A big difference between having a view and lying about sections of society in order to demonise them. My Mum doesn't understand the attraction of people of the same sex either, and I don't see the sexual attraction of women but most of us don't see barriers in that. It is weak disturbed people who point out reasons not to see others as equal.

A bit like your odious remarks regarding British Muslims or Akenaton's slur on gays, travellers, female members of the armed forces etc etc.

From your hilarious comments about the area I live in, at what point, (three more years? Fifty years?) will our neighbours suddenly start hating us then?

Stupid fool 😹😹😹

27 Mar 15 - 12:24 PM (#3697627)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: akenaton

No one hates you dear boy, it's all in your head.

27 Mar 15 - 12:33 PM (#3697633)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: akenaton

"Anyone who thinks they can get inside the head of a Gael in "ten minutes", is seriously mistaken."   (Ake...Mudcat 2015) :0)

27 Mar 15 - 01:32 PM (#3697645)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome

Ake, It is obvious that English is not your first language but you really need to learn what quote marks are for. "ten minutes" makes no sense whatsoever. Dear boy.

27 Mar 15 - 02:08 PM (#3697658)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,achmelvich

musket - i thought you lived down south somewhere and just had a few holiday homes in scotland. a bit like an absentee landlord then. not surprising if one of your multiple personalities isn't too keen on scots running their own show. sorry if i got this wrong - but i do find it a bit confusing to work out where you are (all) coming from.

27 Mar 15 - 02:49 PM (#3697670)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome

Like I explained before, achmelvich, there are no multiple personalities with Musket. There are 3 separate people posting with the same name. Rather like three different people in the pub with the same name. in my case I always say we are the posh submarine commanders. "Dave, Dave, Dave" :-) The original Musket (Ian) is poorly I think. This one is, I think, the doctor in Scotland. The third is, I believe, his wife, who, annoyingly for Ake, is a man.

Have I got that right Muskets?

Multiple personalities are when you get one person posting under different names. Rather like some of our guests on here do.

27 Mar 15 - 03:38 PM (#3697687)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,zero rimsky-korsakov

thanks dtg. that explains a lot - it is a bit confusing and boring and i lose the will to try and follow it all- and nothing - why do people want to pretend to be yet another grumpy old bloke or be 2/3 versions of one grumpy old bloke?

27 Mar 15 - 05:00 PM (#3697699)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST

there are no multiple personalities with Musket. There are 3 separate people posting with the same name.

Does anyone actually believe this?

27 Mar 15 - 05:10 PM (#3697703)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome

Does anyone actually believe this?

In the absence of evidence to the contrary, yes, I do.

27 Mar 15 - 05:32 PM (#3697710)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: TheSnail

Sorry. Above anonymous GUEST was me unlike other anonymous GUESTs who, I suspect, are all further manifestations of Musket.

27 Mar 15 - 05:36 PM (#3697712)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: Steve Shaw

You suspect wrong.

27 Mar 15 - 05:45 PM (#3697716)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: TheSnail

In the absence of evidence to the contrary...

27 Mar 15 - 06:18 PM (#3697726)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: akenaton

:0)

27 Mar 15 - 06:23 PM (#3697727)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST

For the record:

Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Mar 15 - 06:15 PM

"We'll leave collective punishment to the Israeli regime, shall we?"


I'm keeping track.

27 Mar 15 - 06:51 PM (#3697730)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: Steve Shaw

Of what? You're barking mad.

27 Mar 15 - 07:05 PM (#3697735)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: Steve Shaw

Sorry. Above anonymous GUEST was me unlike other anonymous GUESTs who, I suspect, are all further manifestations of Musket.

Well, the latest GUEST post count is 105,726. So tell us where, in that avalanche, Musket's guest posts begin. When contemplating his total number of posts, don't forget to add the thousands of posts actually posted under the Musket soubriquet. It's perfectly obvious to all that the recent anonymous guest posts can't all, or nearly all, or anything like nearly all, be by Musket. More likely, I'd suggest, it's none at all, unless he's done a few in a moment or two of levity. It is not his style. Whilst they don't have to, the moderators will be able to confirm that, I'm sure. Ŵe get more than enough unsupportable assertions around here without your adding to the sorry roster.

28 Mar 15 - 12:37 AM (#3697763)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: Bert

...ye have to love them...

You are supposed to love everyone until they prove themselves unworthy of your love.

As for The Scots, they have a special place in my heart. When I was a boilermaker apprentice, my mentor was a dour Scot, with whom none of the other apprentices would work.

He seemed a bit fierce at first, but it was my job to learn from him. He was a really good craftsman and I learned an awful lot.

I learned a lot more about him the day that his canary died, and he came to work, almost in tears.

A great man and a great teacher and a great friend, I really missed him when he finally left.

28 Mar 15 - 02:34 AM (#3697767)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: Musket

Wow. Anyone would think I crave attention. Or Musket does. Maybe Musket.

Had someone who understands why we do it wanting to join us recently. It's daft enough an idea as it is without anyone else joining in.

Just to repeat. The original Musket (me) got a little bit pissed off with certain people using the weak bully tactic of bringing up irrelevance in order to make your view look stupid. Two very good friends from our days together working around Sheffield and going round the folk clubs thought it would be fun to confuse the bastards by them not knowing which Musket it is.

To be fair, where one of us wants to give a very personal view, we say who it is, or in Martyn's case, post as some bloke in Scotland. I occasionally put Ian at the end and Nick makes it obvious by references to living in London, whereas I am in "The Isle" and Martyn is in Inveraray.

It does make it difficult to abuse the person posting and what made us finally do it was the strange spectacle of Keith A Hole of Hertford googling something, not what we put but something about one of us as people and as his search was flawed, questioned what we put.

Wow... These people, who don't know debate yet hate being exposed for their views actually exist. And whilst the buggers post here, we will ensure the view not the person is paramount by making it difficult for bullies with no respectable view to offer.

Mind you, nobody is perfect. I think Bryan leaves a snaily slime when he posts which makes me as bad. There again, thinking on, he casts doubt on anything I post so he obviously has nothing objective to offer.

Achmelvich. You displayed my point perfectly. Why would you confuse someone who states they live in Scotland for someone who doesn't? Especially when they state they live there? I do own a few properties north of the border but you just made it obvious you factored that into your contributions.

No need to be confused dear chap. Just start addressing what you read rather than what you prejudge.

Don't get like Terribulus who couldn't help pointing out Musket was gay when it had no bearing on his contribution to that thread and the Musket posting wasn't gay anyway.

You see, bigotry can't help revealing itself.

And it stinks anyway.

(I'm OK Dave. Musket was a week out when he said I had man flu. I was laid up with lurgy but fighting fit now.)

Oh. It is usually me in the music threads and only I open pm messages.

Now!

Scotland..

I am more concerned with my bricks and mortar rather than the people. So long as they look after my holiday lets and keep opening stonking restaurant in Edinburgh, the rest of the place can do what it wants.

28 Mar 15 - 02:35 AM (#3697768)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,achmelvich

given the demise of the 'bit bland on here now' thread and the current theme of this one (yes, it's all about muskets again) how long before this one goes the same way? if anyone can steer this back towards the subject, i'd be grateful . i can't be bothered and may just take a break and read somethings more interesting

28 Mar 15 - 03:54 AM (#3697779)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome

achmelvich, for what it is worth, yes you are right and we need to get back to the topic, but...

(Didn't you know there was one of them coming!)

It was YOU who first brought up Musket's whereabouts (I explained) and it was Snail who first accused the three of them of being one person. I know you haven't accused then of anything but to blame them for thread closures is a bit unfair. In my opinion that is.

28 Mar 15 - 03:56 AM (#3697780)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome

and, BTW, I predicted the demise of the 'bland' thread at the third post to the thread. It was obvious from the outset where it would go and had nothing at all to do with anyone at that point.

28 Mar 15 - 03:59 AM (#3697782)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: akenaton

"Just to repeat. The original Musket (me) got a little bit pissed off with certain people using the weak bully tactic of bringing up irrelevance in order to make your view look stupid."

This appears to be some sort of explanation for "Team Musket....the romantic comedy."

Well I have no idea who is posting it or what it means and I think it is simply a load of fibs.
What is wrong with being honest with the membership and putting your views as yourself.....its not possible to have a reasonable debate with three or four people using the same log in name, there are obviously going to be differences of opinion or nuance between you.

It simply confuses the debate and almost always derails it causing the moderators to pull down the shutters.
This is IMO the reason for the tactic, you have no reasonable response to offer on some subjects, so rather than see them discussed you try to wreck the thread.

28 Mar 15 - 04:50 AM (#3697789)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: Musket

I wreck bigotry.

I stand proud of the fact.

If more people did so, the world would be better for it.

Your views are your own and you are welcome to them. Your demonising of others however is not a view. It is incitement to hatred. I don't like seeing criminals on Mudcat and will always say so.

28 Mar 15 - 05:00 AM (#3697791)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn

Ake you claimed I called you a bigot! What I said was that just because a certain party has certain ideals it does not mean everyone who votes for them shares these ideals. The SNP have continually called for more immigration into Scotland. Not everyone who votes for them agrees with that. People don't think on block like that and that is the same for every party

28 Mar 15 - 05:11 AM (#3697797)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: akenaton

OK, those are your views and you are entitled to them, but what bearing does that have on the behaviour of "Team Musket" and the confusion it spreads on this forum.
Your attempted explanation above does not make sense.

This is not a forum for children's games, there are numerous serious subjects which the membership like to discuss. We all like to give our views just as you have done above, but we usually do it honestly and in good faith.
Politics and social issues are of great interest to a majority of the membership....I have learned a lot from people with a different view, but to learn from them, they must be allowed to make their point freely. Silencing others is the first step to Fascism.

28 Mar 15 - 05:21 AM (#3697801)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn

And as to Teribus we seem to completely disagree over politics. He is obviously very anti-SNP and independence so it must be galling when you see the No side win (even if it was narrowly) the referendum only to see support for the Nats, Greens etc blossom even further. He would even like to see the end of the devolved Scottish parliament. So he may be in step with a narrow majority as far as independence goes - but he is way out of step with the vast bulk of Scots as far as devolution goes. But I totally agree with him totally in that we can discuss these without personal attacks.

To give people down south an idea of what it was like in my household during the referendum. I am not a member of any party, and have never been a member of any party but yes I did help support the Yes campaign to some modest exent. Mostly in providing music at rallies etc along with other local folk musicians who were almost to a person Yes supporters too. At the same time my English born wife was not only a supporter of Better Together but she actively worked, and still does, for the local Tory Party. We didn't fall out.....and households like that existed all over Scotland. Despite the odd bit of egg throwing and some eejits from both sides spouting hate onine it was in general a flowering of democracy where vast numbers of people were engaged with the issues. No-one needs to fall out over it.

28 Mar 15 - 05:34 AM (#3697803)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn

"At least most of the minority parties, be it the Lib Dems, the Greens, UKIP etc claim to have the interests of the whole of the UK at heart. The difference with the SNP (and to a lesser extent Plaid Cymru) is that they do not."

Howard that simply isn't true though. The SNP do claim to have the interests of the whole UK at heart. Maybe you don't believe them but that is a different thing! In fact Salmond even signed the Edinburgh Agreement promising they would work for the benefit of the UK as a whole whatever the outcome of the vote. ie the last sentence of clause 30 of the Edinburgh Agreement pasted below. So the SNP were asked to sign an agreement saying they would work for the UK as a whole, which they happily did, then on the eve of an increased SNP membership at Westminster they are told by some Tories that they do not, and could not, have the best interests of the UK at heart.

"The two governments are committed to continue to work together constructively in the light of the
outcome, whatever it is, in the best interests of the people of Scotland and of the rest of the United Kingdom."

28 Mar 15 - 05:39 AM (#3697806)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: akenaton

Sorry Allan, I cross posted...and thank you for your explanation.

I was thinking more about different groups being labelled as bigots because of their views on subjects like immigration or same sex "marriage".....there are often reasons other than "bigotry" for opposition, as I tried to explain in one of my posts.
I have always respected your views and your conduct here, I apologise if I was clumsy in my language.

28 Mar 15 - 05:44 AM (#3697808)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn

Ake I agreed with the poster called Musket re the idea that not everyone voting for a party agrees with the ideals of the leaders of said party! If you saw that as an attack on you then I apologise. It honestly wasn't meant to be. Believe it or not I tend to ignore lots of the persoanl arguments that go on and don't wish to get embroiled in one. I have no interest in the intricacies of who is in team Musket or how many Muskets are posting etc. I always though Musket was a guy from Lincolnshire or thereabouts though there seems to be one claiming to be a woman living in Scotland. If they are two separate people then why are they allowed to post with the same name. I used to post under the name of Allan C but was told not to as there was another poster using that name already. I happily changed it. So Mrs Musket if you exist to avoid confusion please change the name as the other Musket has been posting for years. If it is one poster doing all the posts then come on - that is silly.......

28 Mar 15 - 05:46 AM (#3697809)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn

Apologies crossed there!!!

28 Mar 15 - 06:25 AM (#3697816)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome

though there seems to be one claiming to be a woman living in Scotland.

No, Allan. There are two in Scotland, Musket and his wife, who are both Male. This is how it started. Ake says that Gay people are notoriously promiscuous, perverted and should not be allowed to get married. Amongst other things. The two Muskets in Scotland live near him. The original one lives, as you say, in England and has some properties in Scotland. I do not believe they are one person as some do. I tend to think that most people do tell the truth and, in absence of evidence to the contrary, I believe what the Muskets say. Other people have suspicions but, being a pragmatic sort of chap, I like proof before saying something is so.

Hope this helps.

28 Mar 15 - 06:58 AM (#3697830)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: Steve Shaw

What is wrong with being honest with the membership and putting your views as yourself...

Fine by me. I do it all the time. So what's your name then?

28 Mar 15 - 07:08 AM (#3697833)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: akenaton

I only ever post as akenaton Steve, as you well know. That is all that is required for the purposes of reasonable discussion.

I could post under any name and you would be none the wiser who I was, but three and sometimes four people pretending to be one is confusing and makes debate difficult.

28 Mar 15 - 07:49 AM (#3697840)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: Steve Shaw

I don't give a monkey's mickey who you post as, but don't tell me you're posting as "yourself" when you're using a pseudonym.

28 Mar 15 - 08:12 AM (#3697849)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: Musket

Rather confusing I know, but only one Musket in Scotland. To my knowledge his husband doesn't know what Mudcat is. A good job given that Akenaton is allowed to post filth aimed at gay men whilst Mudcat has a few gay posters and Max tells moderators to delete insults at members, let alone the bigoted filth nobody should have to put up with.

Notice he put "marriage" instead of marriage yet on other threads asks for good wishes for his wife.

Utterly utterly despicable. Musket's marriage is as valid as his, so why he can insult marriage of whilst wanting sympathy for his is beyond credibility.

Allan. Three people post as Musket. It allows people to concentrate on the post not the person posting.

Akenaton is too ashamed of his views to use his real name. He complains about others though. I'm not sure if this is hypocrisy or low intelligence, but given the quality of his posts, possibly a combination.

28 Mar 15 - 09:17 AM (#3697862)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: BrendanB

I do not see how Musket can complain about others posting under a pseudonym when he does the same. I am also unconvinced by the Musket argument that by three people posting under the same name this somehow encourages others to focus on the post and not the poster. As long as the poster has a name some people will focus on what they believe to be the person.   Finally, am I alone in finding it odd that three people hold exactly the same views on every issue?

28 Mar 15 - 09:32 AM (#3697865)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome

Finally, am I alone in finding it odd that three people hold exactly the same views on every issue?

Yes, you are. I would find it extremely odd that as few as 3 people had the same views on every issue. I suspect it is millions.

28 Mar 15 - 09:39 AM (#3697868)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome

Ah - Apologies Muskets and Scottish Musket's wife in particular. It was very wrong of me to say he was as daft as the rest of in posting here - Send him my apologies. Who are the three Muskets then? No names - Just a rough idea such as McMusket, OrignalMusket and ANOtherMusket?

28 Mar 15 - 10:04 AM (#3697872)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,Keith A

I am quite certain that all Musket posts are by the same person.

28 Mar 15 - 10:41 AM (#3697878)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome

Just opinion. No proof. Bit like god really...

28 Mar 15 - 10:45 AM (#3697879)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: akenaton

Steve says,
"I don't give a monkey's mickey who you post as, but don't tell me you're posting as "yourself" when you're using a pseudonym."

On this forum I post under a pseudonym, I reveal my personal details only to a few close friends, and admin. Most other posters do the same and this is common sense on the internet.
I would NEVER countenance the use of my membername by anyone else.
On this forum, for the purposes of debate I alone am akenaton.

The nonsense about three or four people using one membername in order to focus on the issue cuts no ice with me, as most "Team Musket" posts are filled with personal abuse, smears and downright lies.
Keith may be correct and the whole thing is an elaborate and disingenuous hoax.......we shall see.

28 Mar 15 - 10:55 AM (#3697883)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,gillymor

Interesting that the stated purpose of the 3 Muskets is that "It allows people to concentrate on the post not the person posting." when Musket is among the first to move the debate into the realm of the personal with his insults. I'm convinced he's invented, and is performing as, the gay, Scottish McMusket in order to further bedevil a certain kilted, gay-bashing racist. While this may be a noble endeavor it's kind of creepy and disingenuous.

28 Mar 15 - 11:52 AM (#3697891)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: akenaton

Why have they not allowed you into their gang Gilly?....Blackballed?

28 Mar 15 - 12:10 PM (#3697892)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,gillymor

No Ache, I just don't exalt one group of people over another due to xenophobic or homophobic inclinations. You ought to try it some time.

28 Mar 15 - 12:15 PM (#3697893)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: akenaton

Oh I think you would fit in fine....:0)   don't be backward in coming forward!

28 Mar 15 - 12:19 PM (#3697895)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,Allan Conn

Re the name thing! I don't mind whether people post in their full names, a made up name, or like me a part name! I just find it easier if they are consistent. Sorry Musket(s) but I just find the multiple personalities just too confusing.

I mean I wouldn't expect my wife to phone a friend and say "It is Allan here - I am just using his name rather than my own just so that you concentrate on the conversation and not who I am"

That would be a tad silly!

28 Mar 15 - 12:26 PM (#3697897)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST,Dave the Gnome

Don't worry gillymor - It doesn't worry about other issues that we have disagreed on, like grown up people. It only thinks that if you disagree with it, you are part of some secret cabal that conspires to promote homosexuality and take over Scotland.

28 Mar 15 - 12:43 PM (#3697901)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: Musket

Keith said above that he is sure that there is only one Musket. He is sure that UKIP has a point, that Asian males have grooming of young girls hard wired in them and that hospitals and schools are legitimate targets for Israeli bombers, oh and that sending waves of young men towards machine guns was an example of well led troops.

So you see, I only know for certain that three mates decided to use the same log in a couple of years ago, and that Keith might be right on other points.

I somehow doubt it though.. Given his record, I rather believe Nick when he said he met him at a folk club in Hertford despite Keith claiming he has never met someone who, let's face it, he doesn't know the name or description of!

Keith's credibility isn't something I need to comment on really though. Anybody who reads his posts can judge his character for themselves.

Once again, into the breach. We post under one name to confuse those who address the poster not the post. Oh, and we disagree sometimes. Oh, and occasionally, Martyn posts under "some bloke in Scotland" and I occasionally put Ian at the bottom, if it is a serious post.

I have no problem associating them to Sheffield Wednesday despite the usual medical doctor fascination with rugby they seem to have, and personal opinions rarely crop up. Often, it's facing down bigots such as Keith, Terribulus and their pet worm, and it doesn't take an opposing opinion to do that, just decency and good manners.

Pip Pip.

28 Mar 15 - 12:51 PM (#3697903)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: Ed T

"Sometimes we need to let things just air out"

28 Mar 15 - 01:00 PM (#3697904)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: GUEST

You might get arrested for letting your thing air out in public.

28 Mar 15 - 01:04 PM (#3697906)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: akenaton

Yes Ed, but in the case of Team Musket it's all hot air.

What was that post from TM all about?.......indecipherable.

28 Mar 15 - 01:04 PM (#3697907)
Subject: RE: BS: scots - ye have to love them eh?
From: Ed T

"You might get arrested for letting your thing air out in public."

Maybe not, if you are a kilted Scot?