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18 Jul 15 - 11:29 PM (#3724683) Subject: Origins: Indian War Chant From: GUEST I hear this song played a lot during football games, but I know I've heard this in early westerns, such as Stagecoach. I was wondering if anyone could trace its origins, like who was the first composer to actually write it. I'm thinking it's probably Max Steiner, but I could be wrong. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1r9FAH0MHA Anyone have any thoughts? |
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18 Jul 15 - 11:31 PM (#3724684) Subject: RE: Origins: Indian War Chant From: GUEST Btw, I apologize if the word "Indian" Is offensive, but there seems to be no other title |
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19 Jul 15 - 02:27 AM (#3724692) Subject: RE: Origins: Indian War Chant From: Joe Offer I was thinking Elmer Bernstein, but I may be wrong, too. |
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19 Jul 15 - 03:27 AM (#3724698) Subject: RE: Origins: Indian War Chant From: MGM·Lion If it did in fact occur in Stagecoach, the music was written by Richard Hageman. ≈M≈ |
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19 Jul 15 - 09:22 AM (#3724769) Subject: RE: Origins: Indian War Chant From: GUEST Huh, wow I didn't know that Richard hageman wrote the music. I always thought it was Max Steiner. I may have been wrong, I don't think the full Indian war Chant was even used in Stagecoach, here's the score on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rk_4cx_kXOk I believe it comes in around 4 minutes, but it isn't really the same thing as the Atlanta Braves and Florida Seminoles use. But I swear I've heard it in some other westerns though..now this is going to drive my crazy! |
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19 Jul 15 - 12:31 PM (#3724791) Subject: RE: Origins: Indian War Chant From: GUEST,# https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerard_Carbonara |
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19 Jul 15 - 02:08 PM (#3724811) Subject: RE: Origins: Indian War Chant From: GUEST http://stupidquestionarchives.blogspot.co.uk/2008/03/warpath-theme-music.html This article gives the definitive answer. It's from a 1960's Uni. Brass band piece called "massacre" which itself is a pastiche of earlier John Ford type pastiches - which again seem to be taken from earlier Buffalo Bill Outdoor Shows. I don't have the time to transcribe the details of the article.. but if someone has. Apparently there is a 'chopping' gesture that many people find offensive that has gone along with the music. |
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19 Jul 15 - 11:31 PM (#3724913) Subject: RE: Origins: Indian War Chant From: Joe Offer Apparently, it's the official "war chant" of the Florida State University Seminoles, approved by the Seminole Tribe: Here's what Wikipedia says about the FSU "Seminole War Chant":
The War Chant would be adopted by the Atlanta Braves when FSU football alumnus Deion Sanders joined the team, and has been used ever since. It is also used by the NFL team the Kansas City Chiefs, Mexican soccer club Santos Laguna and the Turkish soccer club Galatasaray S.K. Still, I wonder who composed the "Seminole War Chant." Despite some doubts I have about its Political Correctness (even with Seminole approval), I think it's a great piece of music. -Joe- |
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19 Jul 15 - 11:51 PM (#3724914) Subject: RE: Origins: Indian War Chant From: GUEST,# http://www.tomahawknation.com/2012/5/1/2991946/the-real-story-of-how-the-seminole-war-chant-was-started ???? |
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20 Jul 15 - 12:30 AM (#3724919) Subject: RE: Origins: FSU Seminoles Indian War Chant From: GUEST The entry above is a tall tale.... "Massacre" was reckoned to have been written by a brass band arranger of the F.S.U in the 1960''s, the late Charlie Carter. The source of information is given as Patrick Dunnegan director of F.S.U.s Marching band. There are definite urban myths here...It's cultural heritage seems to be based more on Hollywood/John Ford pre-cursors and if taken back - to Buffalo Bill's Wild West Shows which had accompanying music (see earlier entry). |
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20 Jul 15 - 06:52 PM (#3725108) Subject: RE: Origins: FSU Seminoles Indian War Chant From: GUEST I was aware of the Seminole story, I just thought it seemed borrowed from some other themes. It really does sound like a recycled theme from a John Ford film. |
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02 Nov 18 - 03:32 PM (#3959770) Subject: RE: Origins: FSU Seminoles Indian War Chant From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch For your consideration - the Indian Intermezzo Silver Heels (1905) To compare: Ytube: Kansas City Chiefs Tomahawk Chop - Loudest Crowd in the World (Guinness World Record) Ytube: Jumbo Military Band (about one minute in.) Ytube: Vess Ossman on banjo (30 seconds in.) Long and storied history of Yank colonial-Hollywood folklore characters male & female. Very big with the marching bands back in their heyday. |
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02 Nov 18 - 03:36 PM (#3959771) Subject: RE: Origins: FSU Seminoles Indian War Chant From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch "Silver Heels." Melody from the popular Indian Intermezzo Writers of the tremendous successes, “HIAWATHA” “MOONLIGHT” etc. Poem by: JAMES O'DEA Music by: Neil Moret Where the corn-flow'rs wave once an Indian brave, All unfettered by the white man's law, Loved a pretty little crowfoot squaw Just the sweetest and the neatest little girl he ever saw. She was always coy to this Indian boy, To his heart she didn't do a thing When the moon beams on the river set the shadows all aquiver, then he'd sing: chorus(2x) I love you and you love me, Pretty little Silver Heels. I'll build you a big teepee, If you will come and cook my meals. Young Chief's blue and all for you, Plenty heap he love sick feels Don't be missing, heap much kissing, Silver Heels. When the summer goes and the north wind blows, In a cozy little wigwam we, “Will be always right at home” said he “With a hubby and a chubby little papoose on your knee.” But the maiden shy only dropped her eye, As a tender little sigh sigh she sighed Whule her copper colored lover 'neath the silv'ry stars above her, once more cried: chorus 2x Baylor U. sheet music here: Silver Heels |
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07 Feb 21 - 07:43 PM (#4092058) Subject: RE: Origins: FSU Seminoles Indian War Chant From: GUEST,Guitar Player Listen to or play Dagger Dance which was written by Victor Herbert for the opera Natoma in 1911. To the extent composers are inspired by other works, one has to wonder if Herbert was in turn inspired by a native melody or chant, perhaps Hopi in origin. |
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08 Feb 21 - 02:09 PM (#4092169) Subject: RE: Origins: FSU Seminoles Indian War Chant From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch See thread links above: This FSU 'war chant' is, I believe, from the early 1900s Indian Intermezzo pop genre. It became a "riff" or entrance music for American Indians in Yank pop media. Natoma is from classical's parallel "Indianist" school. Herbert is pretty clear he was "inspired by," but did not incorporate, American Indian melodies in his work. Anthony Philip Heinrich (Hiawatha) and Arthur Nevin (Poia) were two fellows generally acknowledged to have spent serious time in the field but only the latter claimed to have used what he heard there, afaik. |
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08 Nov 21 - 07:38 AM (#4125530) Subject: RE: Origins: FSU Seminoles Indian War Chant From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch The Indian intermezzo and 'tomahawk chop' began popping up in my newsfeed lately. It was the Atlanta Braves winning the World Series and NPR All Things Considered regular Stefan Fatsis writing this time for Slate.com: The Surprising Origins of the “Tomahawk Chop” Music. The linked example intermezzo is Play it One More Time, Chief!, William J. Schafer, Johannes Riedel, 1908. I haven't managed find it this side of a paywall just yet. Fatsis does not mention Charles N. Daniels' Silver Heels which, to my ears, sounds much closer than the theme to Adventures of Pow Wow which does get the credit as the ultimate source of the notorious 'chop' chant. |
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08 Nov 21 - 07:44 AM (#4125531) Subject: RE: Origins: FSU Seminoles Indian War Chant From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch Pow Wow, the Indian boy, loved all the animals and the woods; Pow Wow, the Indian boy, loved all the animals and the woods; Pow Wow was a friend of all the animals in the woods, If there was any trouble he would help them if he could; If Pow Wow couldn't help them he would go to the Medicine Man, And he would tell them stories just how it all began, all began, all began. [The Adventures of Pow Wow the Indian Boy] W&m – Montgomery L. “Monty” Kelly (1910-1971) Can be heard here: Adventures Of Pow Wow: Playin' Possum and on ytube. Trivia: Charles N. Daniels (Silver Heels) was born in St. Louis and spent part of his childhood in Kansas City. He moved to California in 1913 and founded House of Moret publishing in San Francisco in 1924. Monty Kelly was born across the bay in Oakland, CA in 1910. As noted in the main intermezzo thread, long-hair Indian intermezzo composer Maurice Baron was also based in the Bay Area at the same time. The Kansas City Chiefs were born in Dallas as the Texans. |